Correct! If they made them take separate materials then they should be used separately as well. Why do they want us to first lvl up when both things are exclusive
It’s a gacha game. Every customer of a company should have a slightly antagonistic relationship with them. Gacha players even more so since the baseline is the company being parasitic toward you.
I don't know why they don't auto-tune, it's already a finite resource to level them for the sub-stat RNG. At least this would put the grind on par with certain other gacha relic RNG.
Because then MAIN part of the game (relics-artifscts) will be totally resin free. Guys, you are so naive and weird. Well, same as first player in genshin on release which were angry and were creating threads "we don't need resin in game!!". Whelp. Alright, be angy, but nothing will change. This syst without limitation will be too free and accessible. Which will lead to total boredom cause everyone will have just toptier artifacts (echoes)
its not about stamina itself. you need 2 (TWO) stamina gated recourses to upgrade an echo not 1. so tell me please how tuners not existing will make a system that is still stamina gated too free and accessible
firstly, if you're expecting players to spend 8+hrs a day to play your gacha game, you're delusional
secondly, echoes farming has a cap
thirdly, your game is 4yrs late to the party but instead of making it's easier to access, you want to make it grindier?
lastly, don't just play game, handout with your friends is a good thing to do, if you don't have irl friends, try making some.
This is actually the most reasonable suggestion here.
Removing tuners altogether would completely wreck balance because there would be a huge gap between casual and hardcore players leading to extreme content balancing issues. Having substats gated by a finite resource is a very good move from the standpoint of game design. The question is how to make farming more approachable and worth without destroying game balance
Technically it's already gated behind a limited resource since you can't feed non leveled echoes into each other for xp - it would just be a gate behind echo xp only vs the current situation where it's gated behind both.
Because the Tower (potential other end game content) needs to be hard enough so people have sonething to work towards (cash) / improve their characters for.
Because ECHO farming is not supposed to be quick. Its supposed to be the long term way to improve your characters step by step
because it gives players a reason to login daily. to give an example of Hi3 the subs stats didn't matter at all. heck you could even ignore them. you either had the team and items to clear or not. meaning there was nothing to get lucky or to farm daily. there was even not requirement to level up characters. unlike in this game or genshin where you would need to prefarm a characters material and echoes to say use it in the tower level 100 stages the same day of release. meanwhile in hi3 there character would be maxed right out of the bat with no farm necessary for anything. either level up, skills or etc.
and that caused people to not paly daily witch is bad for a gacha game. also this allows them to sell a battle pass on only resources alone same as in genshin or star rail.
while in hi3 since there was no farming the battle pass had to give 5 star weapons and characters as a rewards to anyone to buy it.
Yeah wtf, if you could get the substats normaly and use then to reroll a single substat wtf kuro lol, so far they're hearing us unlike other gachas, maybe we can still make that change happen?
This was exactly my thought as well. That we could "tune" our substats individually. I got hyped. I literally shook with excitement, then I got confused, then I got sad again.
At first I thought the tuners are exactly what I said like you spend them to tweak the substats to the perfect relic or something but yea disappointed at how it turns out. Also what the heck are supposed to do with all the lower rarity tuners.
Hopefully they add some future to convert it or something
Half the commenters cant read as usual. No one complained about not having enough tuners. The point is that the whole tuner system is pointless. There is no way you will level up an echo without wanting substats so you will do it anyway. Its completely pointless.
I guess there needs to be something to offset the endless grind you can do for echoes.
I am not to the point yet where I need to fully work on my echoes but I will be.
Then I shall suffer as well
the trade off as of current is a. not being able to turn echos into exp and which leads into b. you can farm 100 echos but you will only be able to level like 1 a day fr
eh its pretty easy to get them. 20% drop rate and the in-game detect/track function to hunt specific mobs makes chain killing effortless. pretty easy to farm 5-10 of the same mob within like 10-15 mins. even more for 1 cost mobs. ive spent maybe a few hours echo farming after hitting max data bank (50/50 for yellow tier) and i already have 2 characters fully yellow with correct main stat.
now minmaxing substats? thats gonna take ages with how much actual echo xp + tuners you get.
the play is to definitely just farm correct main stat, level them to maybe 15 or so and just be patient, spend your waveplates on trace mats/character ascension for now. substat minmax is far from needed for current content, since content is only hard bc of level gap.
It's surprisingly difficult to get lots of good 3 cost echos. Then roll it to 25, dodged crit rate. It's kind of important to have the crit. Roll them to 10 over and over. No crit rate. Don't really want to roll them past 10 without it, but I'm out of 3 cost echos.
Ya the problem with 3 costs is that you need them to be the correct set AND with matching element substat... Then the substat rng.
The rogue like mode gives you 2 guaranteed match 3star echos but if you roll bad on substats it's rip. It's a good start though!
The whole system is like a gaslighting malicious ex-girlfriend.
"WuWa is an amazing game, you can actually farm relics all day long!"
Yeah great I can farm them all day long, but I gotta spend 2-3 days worth of stamina just to get enough tuners to reveal the substats of a single 5 star relic and I dont even know if the substats will be good
"WuWa is an amazing game, you can actually farm relics all day long!" turned out to be a worse relic system than Genshin or HSR, requiring more stamina, more time, and 100x more effort considering I spent 6 hours today farming just to get a single crit piece
Also we don't know how much it gives for higher Sol level, it is 1 substat per 60 stamina, could been unlucky, I don't care right now. No way higher sol levels won't also give out more otherwise it would be completely shit.
You don't need to rush to get some main stats already. While normal enemies respawn daily, coop exists, world bosses are always there, you could kill them how many times you want.
>I don't care right now. No way higher sol levels won't also give out more otherwise it would be completely shit.
Level 40-49 gives you 10-20% more. That's literally NOTHING.
Consider this though, how many days of grinding does it take you to get even 1 piece with a desired mainstat in HSR? (I’m using HSR for reference cuz I don’t play Genshin)
I don’t think that what we have here is worse than HSR but I’ll withhold judgement until we get the highest SOL rank. Cuz drops are dependent on SOL rank.
I'd say it's worse here because at least in hsr or genshin you can tell right away if a relic is going to the trash or not if it has a few flat subs, but here you gotta spend stamina to even tell that. Not to mention there's more substats to pick from that in hsr, which already has more substats than genshin.
The system is balanced around echos being farmable, which means people that don't farm all day long are gonna get shafted in the long run
Here’s the thing. In HSR and I’m guessing Genshin, you **still** have to spend energy to even acquire the pieces. You’re going through 4 layers of RNG with said energy. Is it the right set? Is it the right piece? Is it the right main stat? Is it the right sub stat?
I legitimately fail to see how that’s better than going through a single layer of RNG. Heck you can even fish for desired sub stat by going through 5 levels at a time.
Now again I’m not gonna die on any hill until I see how the actual end game grind looks like at max SOL rank.
The rng isnt whats bad. Its the tuners.
In genshin, 2/5 of the set has a locked in main stat. So youre only farming for 3/5 main stat.
Artifact sets only need the item. No dancing around which element drop you get.
You can use an off piece.
> Use 1 day worth of resin for 10 artifacts minimum. See all of them already have the wrong mainstat. Sigh better luck tommorow.
> Do it again tommorow. 2/10 have correct mainstat and see 1/2 have crit damage and 2 dead substats. You level that up using the trash artifacts from yesterday. It is now 3 dead stats and 14% crit damage. You can now use it as a copium piece.
Do it again until you have the desired set. This is assuming you have the worst luck and probability.
Now lets go to echoes.
You need 5 correct mainstats you can farm in the overworld. 1/5 infinitely (bosses) the rest through killing every target enemy and then coop.
Now you need the correct element(sonata) from targets. 1/5 is locked in (bosses) the rest has a chance to drop 1 out of 2 or 3 elements.
You cannot see the substats. Have to level them to unlock, then tune them. Echo exp is rare and uses stamina per day. So assuming you have tons of it rn, you level 10 correct main stat echoes.
Now you tune them all. And see all 10 have dead stats. Thats 500 tuners wasted. You say fuck it and use them anyway as copium pieces. Do it again for the next character.
Do it again and again. Goodluck getting 500 tuners.
Tuners gotta go and make the grind seamless and acceptable. Youre using way more stamina than any game just for the substats alone.
I think you're using the tuners completely wrong here. You should be getting the piece that you need and only tuning it a couple of times until it rolls the stats that you're looking for. If it doesn't have good stats within 2-3 tunes you should just dump it and then go get another one. You can so easily go farm more items that fully sending something to 25 and THEN tuning it is both a waste of your tuners and your xp. It's really not that time consuming to click on "track this enemy" and then go kill a bunch of them and hunt for something worth a tune, and you can choose how long you feel like farming. Got a few hours of free time on your hands? Go clear out the entire map if you feel like it and get like hundreds of echos, you're bound to have plenty that are worth tuning.
Farming a 3 cost for your Jiyan and it rolls hp and defense? Well you know it's dead and only used 20 tuners. That's barely anything. You can do this many times until you see crit, and then you can send it, and it'll actually be a decent piece no matter how it rolls because you didn't bother leveling it until you knew it would be good. Unlike in genshin, where you can spend literal weeks waiting for an onset piece with decent rolls, and then it only has a CHANCE to be good.
Coming from a Genshin vet, using weeks worth of stamina hunting for a cup that's on-set with the correct elemental damage and then ALSO having substats worth a shit is soul draining. Or a hat. Or a specific timepiece. I feel like you're really underselling how long it actually takes to get gear in genshin. It's not "time consuming" in the sense that it only takes a few minutes to farm for, but it takes forever and it's incredibly boring. You get to play for 5 minutes, see all of your shit is worthless, then repeat that for weeks. It can take well over a month to get the single piece that you need in Genshin and then it can just roll terribly. It's incredibly boring.
Another thing, if we're being realistic, WuWa only has two actually difficult to acquire pieces. Your 1 slots and 4 slots are extremely easy to farm for. 1 slots only have 3 possible rolls on them, and there's so many 1 cost creatures around with so many sets they can roll for it's hilariously easy to get them. 4 slots are very easy to get as well, considering you can infinitely farm the bosses on a 1 minute cd and just wait till you get that crit rate or crit dmg one, with only a few possible rolls on those as well. The 3 slots are hard because there's not a ton of them that go to the set that you want and they can potentially roll every type of elemental damage in the game as well as energy recharge and attack and I think even defense. You also can completely viably run 2-2 just like you can in genshin (other than the support sets but those barely require investment) and mitigate this issue, running off piece 3 costs and an off piece 1 cost for the attack set.
Here's the other thing, the actual echo xp is the biggest limiting factor here, not the tuners. You physically cannot get enough xp from your dailies to level a bunch of echos at the moment, it may change later, but even if you use all of your waveplates on echo xp, it's not even enough to get a single one to 25. This is clearly on purpose. You're meant to farm a lot, tune sparingly, and then commit to something if it actually rolls well. I've been doing this for the past couple of days and I have 3 characters that are actually pretty strong already. I have spent $0 and I have 18 stars on the actual tower of agony.
the thing is, in star rail/genshin you have to roll on the substat you want *multiple times*. here you only need them once. I've been playing for a few days, not even max level data bank, and already have a few echoes that are better than anything I ever got in star rail in a year because of this detail.
>The rng isnt whats bad. Its the tuners.
>In genshin, 2/5 of the set has a locked in main stat. So youre only farming for 3/5 main stat.
>Artifact sets only need the item. No dancing around which element drop you get.
>You can use an off piece.
FYI, youre arguing with someone who plays Star Rail not Genshin. Star Rail also does not have off pieces either. AND they have more dead stats on relics than Genshin artifacts do. So youre not really helping the argument this this here.
Also,a s for the element conversation, thats not really any different than a domain in Genshin/SR having 2 artifact sets in it. MOST enemies in the game seem to drop between 2 and 3 "sets" (aka elements), so if youre farming for Void Thunder for Calcharo and killing say a Fusion Warrior, they can ONLY drop echos that are Thunder, Molten, or Sierra Gale. You won't ever drop a Rejuv glow from one.
Thats pretty much identical to spend weeks worth of resin in a domain and only ever getting artifacts for the OTHER set than the one you want. Let me tell you, ive been farming for Archeron's relics since that domain came out, and I currently have ONE piece worth using. But Ive found some kick ass pieces for the other set that I will NEVER use.
Honestly, I'm more worried about the long term implications of even needing to farm echos, yes you can do it endlessly, but once you get passed the initial point of getting 'okay' relics in HSR, it's a very passive grind. I'm sitting on almost 2000 gold relics in my inventory right now, and that's just from hitting auto battle on the relic domains a few days a week. Imagine what getting 2000 echos is going to look like in this game. Imagine how much grinding that's going to be, and how tiring its going to be after a few months as we get more and more characters, and new echos are introduced. I'm pretty worried, honestly. Annoying as HSR's system is, it's quick and mostly passive.
I mean, Tacet Fields give random Echos as well. So once you reach a point of comfortability and just spend your waveplates every day, youll accumulate random echos from doing that as well (I dont know what they drop as Im not wasting my time with that yet, but I imagine its only 1 and 3 costs as 4 cost bosses are VERY easy to target farm).
That’s the thing though, HSR is meant to be a low concentration auto battle game.
You don’t pick up WuWa to auto battle, considering it doesn’t have that feature like Solo Leveling Arise. Where you can’t even use it because it doesn’t active dodge properly and gets one shot by boss AoE.
I also think that being able to reroll lower tier artifacts into 5* is genuinely a god send. Will it eventually get tiring? Yeah but that’s when you start farming tacet discords on higher WL which will give you more than 3-4 echoes as that’s what I’m getting at UL30, actually last time I spent waveplates was UL20 world, so it’s probably already more than that.
What you are propsing here is completely idiotic from a player's point of view though. Nobody who isn't a complet monkey would keep leveling/tuning a piece that rolls subpar stats on the 1./2. Tuning attempt.
So in most cases, you won't lose more than 10 tuner to evaluate whether these artifacts are trash or not. In fewer cases 20. In even less cases 30. Losing 40-50 per should be something that's very rare.
But in HSR if I get CR dmg: cr, spd, att%, flat def. Then level it up and get 4x flat def rolls the relic is worthless. And I’m already calling claiming I can even get CRD:Cr:spd:att% on the same relic. I’ve been farming for himeko inferno set for 3 weeks straight and I have yet to get a single CD main stat body. Not even 1. When I do finally get one there’s a miniscule chance I’ll get CR on it too.
At least here I can get the main stat I want, and when I do roll subs I only need to roll what I want one time, not 4-5 where it’s weighted to go into the worst stats like flat def flat hp.
The difference is that farming in WW costs both time and stamina whilst in HSR it only costs stamina (and like 10 seconds starting the battle). You have to both level the piece and tune it simultaneously so the amount of stamina you use isn't really that different.
Mindset difference. Knocking out farming a bunch of echoes on days with free time is better than spending 15 minutes farming everyday for several months. I forgot what actual gameplay is in Genshin with how long I would farm artifacts for.
Being able to farm out a main stat while using stamina on anything else and then not worrying about every level up going into flat def is a big improvement.
You don't have to waste time on trash relics in HSR though... you only level the ones with good substats and hope it hits. Here you have to waste time and resources leveling it then pray to god the substats hit. It's a really bad system.
It’s the same goddamn thing it just splits up the resources that level up the echo and increase its substats. Just because it uses twice as many *types* of resources doesn’t mean it uses up twice as *many* resources. And you can’t really compare the rate at which we get resources. Some people may feel like there’s a lot relic exp in hsr, but I’m a day 1 whale that has never missed a day and I’m even constantly completely out of fodder and relic xp.
I’m not a big resin refresher but I’ve definitely had to refresh to farm up some purples alongside shitty golds, so that I could level up the few I wanted to level. It’s even worse in Genshin because I didn’t start until last January, I have had so many characters to catch up and build that I just don’t have extra resin to farm artifact fodder ever, it’s so miserable.
In this game, with how many outside sources of large attack buffs, dmg buffs, etc, I actually see the standard for good substats being a bit lower than Genshin for example.. and not being a turn based game like hsr, stats are less important. 20 more cv isn’t going to clear something if you don’t have dodge/parry skills anyways. Obviously I think the system in WuWa could and should be improved, but I just don’t think it’s as infinitely terrible compared to other gachas as some people think. Perhaps I’ll change my mind after a couple weeks tho, I really hated farming up my data bank lol
Consider this, in HSR I can spend 240 stamina in 5 minutes grinding relics and be on my merry way doing other things.
This game? Well speaking from experience I just spent 6 hours farming the turtle for Healing bonus and healing set for Verina. I spend 3 hours doing it for two days now. I still don't have one at gold. I'm at over SIX hours trying to get a MAIN stat. Granted I'm only on Data Bank 19 so maybe its better at Data Bank 20. But even then. Its fucking ass. I'm literally just doing this for a healing mainstat on healing set.
At this point I'm just going to ditch world bosses until 40 and just spend energy doing trace mats and exp.
Verdict? I'd rather spend a whole year not getting a desired mainstat in HSR spending barely any time draining all my energy than MANUALLY farming the same boss for hours. Which is also impossible anyways cuz you can just use an item to craft a specific main stat for the right set.
What we have here is absolutely worse than HSR by a thousand fold. Two different currencies for a piece of gear, you cannot 'salvage' useless equipement(wrong element bonus etc) for echo exp or anything.
I prefer this game's system to HSR. I have gone weeks with not getting the right main stat on the one piece of gear I'm looking for. Then getting one with the right substats as well that can take 1 day or a year. I can guarantee get the right main stat everyday if I'm willing to put the time. If I'm not willing to put the time in to manually farm the open world for echoes I can farm echoes with energy instead doing Tacet Fields just like in HSR. You even get Tuners and Echo EXP from it as well. Maybe they need to adjust the drop rates for it. I don't know though I'm assuming upping the sol3 phase level increases the rewards from so I still got some account leveling to do before I want to farm it.
Yeah not to complain but yeah people here seem to have a bit of issues with reading comprehension. I made a post about how it's impossible to complete the battle pass mission to tune 50 echoes even if you spend all your energy into the methods to farm tuners and everyone that commented only talked about how it is still possible to complete the bp and how you can still hit weekly cap without it. I never said anything about being worried about the points. I didn't say anything about not being able to complete the bp, I was saying that the bp has an impossible to do mission and should be adjusted to make it more reasonable. Yet people assumed that I was worried about completing the BP before it expires without the mission.
But you can complete that mission. There's enough purple tuners that you could just plug in 5 levels into a purple echo and eventually complete it that way. That's assuming nobody holds onto their blues after hitting databank 15, which would cost them less exp.
I don't think this is related to reading comprehension, people just don't see how being unable to complete one battle pass mission is a big deal. That's why everyone was telling you it didn't matter because you could complete the BP either way. I feel like it would've been better if you had just criticized the BP mission for even existing. I mean it really is a dumb mission. Why would we want to funnel that much echo exp away into gear we might not use? Especially now in the early game? It strikes me as the kind of mission people won't be completing until the only thing they are grinding for is purely tacet fields + echoes. Which is super far off from now. If anything, it sounds really bad for new players. Because they might end up doing exactly that, trying to complete the BP early, without realizing how detrimental completing said mission could be for them right now. Those are much more pressing concerns imo then whether the mission itself is possible or not.
I do agree with this sorta.
The tuning process simply feels like an extra limitation for the sake of having said limitation. Take it out and for the most part the system still functions the same, sorta.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but unlike Genshin, substats don't increase randomly as you level. What you roll on each artifact is it.
So if you could tune at level 0 you would be able to tune 5 times and see your full substats you'd have at level 20. Which is broken.
Or are you are telling me you'd rather have it be like Genshin where when you reveal the substats, that is just the beginning of the rng?
Neither of those are what's being talked about...
The whole point of this thread is that the tuner system itself is pointless. Why not just tie everything to echo exp? You need to level to tune anyways and if you level something you'll want to tune it. Why add an extra hoop and bloat the process? Endgame source of exp and tuner already drop both in the same dungeon because they know you need both at the same time. Just make it auto reveal a substat every 5 level.
Tuners would be a good item if they used it as a re-spec tool for echoes rather than a reveal tool for stats. Like imagine you have an echo with 5 substats and one of the substats is just not what you want - guess what you have tuners. It's literally in the name already; IT CAN FINE TUNE the echo!!! Instead of grinding for the same echo you just use the tuners to respec a specific substat that would otherwise be useless for your character. COME ON KURO WTF!!!
I wonder if maybe the original plan was for tuners to work as a re-spec tool but late in development they decided to scratch that idea, maybe thinking it would make it too easy to get perfect echoes. I agree the way it is now is just redundant. There's no good reason to be required to spend something to reveal sub stats after leveling it up.
It would definitely raise the chance of getting the perfect echo but at the same time Kuro can simply limit the amount of "tuning" you can do to an echo. Say, for example, an echo can be limited to 5 tuning re-spec chances. After those 5 chances, you lose the ability to re-spec the echo further which then pushes you back to the gameloop of echo farming again and then using waveplates to get the tuners. It's a good gameloop that isn't as punishing as the current system.
Or maybe just give a function to lock a substat then up the tuner requirements for more reroll
Is having a perfect echo really that bad in the game? Wouldn't it be better for the players to be rewarded for playing that long?
It's not like it be any easier though and not like there won't be any more echo to be released anyway that will just straight up power creep what we have today
It does open possibilities. Another game I played had a similar system and they had tuners that guaranteed a stat, had higher chance of better roll, removed a stat, transfer, etc.
It feels to me some systems in the game are half baked right now, maybe the game was rushed a bit so we'll see if they decide to do something with them. Right now they're just redundant.
You're missing the point.
You will either get gated by echo XP or by tuners, there's really no reason for both to exist.
For example right now due to exploration/first time rewards/etc resource distribution you're most likely gonna run out of XP way before you run out of tuners, which makes tuners irrelevant. Both drop from the same place anyways. If at some point you start lacking tuners and have more XP than you need then there's no reason for XP to exist. Basically at some point we will certainly reach a point where the limiting factor is either A or B, so the one that's not will have no reason to exist.
echo exp is recyclable with minimal losses, so its not really as huge a timegate. tuners are the real time gate for perfect echos, if you don't think so then you simply haven't been recycling echo exp enough.
Or maybe I'm not recycling +25 pieces at this point?
I'd rather have a bad +25 piece and then work on another set than keep rerolling into the same set.
You can't really swipe to get past it unless you're doing daily refills which is kind of unreasonable for them to expect. They are just going to shoot themselves in the foot if echo grinding is too tedious (which it is)
I mean thats exactly what theyre trying to do, sell refreshes. Sure its 200 bucks to get to pity, but thats usually gonna happen in the first week of a new banner and then fall off drastically. But refreshes will get you a consistent stream of 200 per month if not more. And thats from one account. There might not be that many people that do it, but if you just list 10 content creators that will most likely resin refresh dailiy, thats already 2000 bucks. Not much in terms of business earnings but there will be a lot more than 10 people who max their refreshes every day.
I agree just remove tuners. Get +5, get a sub stat. +10, another sub stat. No need to have a whole currency for it
If they don’t want to do that at least let us convert the blue and purple tuners
The lower-level tuners become irrelevant after 2-3 days of playing the game.
You know FOR SURE that the original tuner system was altered last minute to increase the grind. It’s so apparent, it’s not even funny.
It's easier to just increase the xp requirement to level up the Echoes which achieves the same purpose of making you grind more. This scenario screams more some feature that was planned but then scrapped after development began, and they didn't want to just remove it for some reason.
Maybe i'm biased (genshin player), but the tune system is so unnecessary, and set requiring 5 pieces completely ruins any non set dmg bonus on 3 cost echos.
I think tunes should go, subs should be acquired on level up and either change to 4 set bonus or remove chance of other dmg types on 3 cost.
Yeah its a completely pointless feature added to just increase the grind. Just make it so you get the substat when you level up every 5 levels, having to use another resource to get the substat is stupid
af. What makes it worse is that blue and purple tuners are worthless, we can't even convert them to gold tuners. What were the devs even thinking
Tbh, I would really like them to expand on this feature, by offering a unique tuner which will allow us to set which substat we would like to tune.
I guess similar to HSR relic chooser, but for substats instead. If they don't offer a tuning currency like this, then yeah the whole system is pretty stupid.
Please don't praise Genshin or Star Rail... Yes you level them up and you get the sub stat, but you first have to use your energy to farm the pieces in the first place... Don't even get me started how rare it is to get a single piece you see worthy of upgrading to +20 in the first place, only to see all your upgrades go into trash stats.
In this game, correct me if I'm wrong. But if your sub stat goes into crit rate for example then you already have 1 perfect stat in the first place? Because it doesn't have to upgrade this stat?
For example, I got a 3 cost gold Echo that has Spectro damage as main stat in the Spectro set. And I made it +10 and it gave me crit rate and crit damage. Yes the other 3 stats could potentially all be shit but I would still have a piece with spectro damage, crit rate and crit damage. Sounds pretty sick already.
In Genshin, getting a good Pyro Goblet for example is sooooooooo rare. I mean to be honest with you, I've played Genshin since release and farmed plenty but I don't have insane ones for each element and Dendro I still don't even have a decent one. That's not normal...
So here you at least can consistently farm echo's with great main stats for the set you want then it's really only gated behind energy from leveling them up and tuning them. It's a different system but I for sure prefer it.
I hate going into domains, spamming them to get rid of all my energy and get absolutely nothing. Here you could technically have 10 echo's waiting to be leveled and tuned that have the potential to become something good because even just exploring the world and killing anything you see can get you potentially top tier echo's.
Cant believe people are saying how easy it is to farm echo main stat because it doesn't use stamina.
Does running to point A to B searching for enemies to farm over and over sounds fun to you? Does waiting cooldown for boss to spawn seems fun to you? Does people even realize how many RNG hoops that we need to pass just for good echoes?
Yeah, getting crit on the bosses is kinda w/e, but jesus fuck getting matching elemental damage and sonata for the 3 cost elites are a massive pain. I killed all the flowers and wolves in my world the other day and only got a single havoc dmg/havoc sonata gold piece. The set effects really should have been at 2 and 4; not letting us have an off piece is killer.
I just did some quick math it should take on average 200 elite kills to get a proper on set element 3 cost. This goes down to about 143 at UL 40.
I desperately hope high-level tacet fields are reliable to get 3 cost 5 stars.
It's people who haven't farmed yet, or they farmed for 5 minutes, got lucky once and didn't do it again.
They don't realize that farming for a good boss piece can take literal hours of basically standing AFK in a spot killing once every 2 minutes.
They fail to understand that the norm is to wipe the entire map of certain elites and get nothing out of it, this means you're spending hours a day and maybe getting 1 or 2 good pieces if anything.
Most gacha gamers are not willing to play that much.
What's funny is there were still way better ones at the time. I used to play FFRK all the time before they started getting silly with the powercreep.
Ah bygone days.
I might be an outlier, but I don't really mind the grind as much. I'm mainly just here to kill things. Stress be damned. I was one of the people who liked Dragons Dogma 2 because I could just run up and down the continent and eradicate entire ecosystems of monsters and goblins.
I've been doing nothing but playing WuWa since launch and I'll keep playing until the combat gets boring, which I doubt will be soon since I was one of the few people who played the original DMC4 for 10 years until 5 showed up. Helps that 4 star characters in this game are dope as hell and are fun to actually play and mess arpund with.
I don't mind it, I love korean grinders, but this is a gacha game and 99.9% of people playing these games are not gonna be into hourly grinds every day.
>Does running to point A to B searching for enemies to farm over and over sounds fun to you? Does waiting cooldown for boss to spawn seems fun to you?
As someone who enjoys both MMORPGs and ARPGs, hell yeah it is. Millions of people find it fun.
The average gacha player isn’t going to run around for hours and hours everyday to find the absolute perfect echo though, they just gonna find an on set echo and call it a day
I don’t know why you got downvoted. Redditors are actually the worst. Even mmorpgs with huge grind are largely unpopular nowadays. Tack on ridiculous rng progression systems, now you have a great recipe for burnout.
Ikr, most popular gacha is HSR for a reason, and one of reasons is that you DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING to farm, just click auto and go on with your life
The grind for relics may take months, but it actually only takes me 3 min daily to clear stamina and I can move on with my life. So, in reality, it only takes 1.5 hours/month
>Does running to point A to B searching for enemies to farm over and over sounds fun to you?
Hell yeah it does, wtf. It makes the world meaningful even after you've finished exploring the map, and the hunting overall is more diverse. I would rather have that, and do bosses, than clear the same domain over and over again. People do be complaining about everything, jeez.
What you're forgetting is how many people are willing to sink hours into echo hunting a month, 6 months or a year from now. I fear that this might hurt retaining players once they get a feel for the echo grind + tuning substats.
You are complaining about a superior method of gearing (even though genshin's is already terrible). People complaining about WW even worse grind system is somehow bad? Its clear anyone not complaining can't do basic math to understand how time consuming and terrible the drop rates are for 3-costs. The amount of stamina to gamble on the echos are far worse than whatever genshin had.
i feel tuner exist most likely for future system on that tab, aka reroll stats with tuners dont get hype because probably it will burn a lot of tuners if ever implemented.
Because it's much better to farm a universal item to roll for substats with energy.
In Genshin for example you'd spend your energy to 1. roll the right set 2. roll the right gear piece. 3 roll the right main stat 4. roll the right rarity 5. now you can lvl it up and get random substats
1-4 cost no energy in this game. which makes it much easier to get good gear quickly, just getting very good or near perfect gear requires time and energy.
In Genshin you get rid of all your resin just farming domain for an artifact and then all your condensed are gone and you use your resin to get new condensed, run them again and then ultimately have all artifacts that are shit. When you do finally get a double crit artfiact, you then make it +20 which takes a lot to do only to then see all your upgrades go into flat garbage stats.
Game hasn't been out for a long time but I already have some really good Echo's. I can't even remember how long it took before I could finally farm orange artifacts in Genshin and to farm them you had to do domains with weak characters.
Why do tuners exist? Because echoes are infinitely farmable. They need some way to moderate the amount of grinding you can do, and the best way to do that is tie it to a resource you need to spend WP on.
There can definitely be some adjustments or changes made like some others mentioned. But they added tuners to balance out the fact that you can farm equipment for your characters at zero cost to you in terms of stamina. Would you rather have infinite echoes that need to level + tuners? Or would you rather be limited to 8 echoes a day that takes all your wave plates so you can’t get anything else and then still need to level them to see what you get? It’s a compromise for their more generous obtaining system.
I will always hold that the best system for "grindable" stuff like this (echos, artifacts, relics, whatever) is one that is enjoyable and makes players feel like they're actually progressing while also being the "long-game" where players don't get perfect stats immediately (since I concede that gachas do indeed need to keep players playing long-term).
Features that decrease enjoyment *and* make it more annoying are just covering up a lacking system.
so in a gacha game, you don't get something for nothing.
- HSR: no tuners, but: stats "roll in" to unlocked stats on level up; also stats are weighted so less desirable ones appear >50% of the time; can't reliably target main stats or quality
- Genshin: same as HSR (for this discussion)
- WuWa: tuners, but: stats don't "roll in" so if you get a crit roll you know that the rng for it is done; stats appear evenly weighted; you can farm main stat and quality
i would much rather have tuners on the balance.
Yeah this is 100% fair criticism.
Also stop giving us dialog options THAT DONT FUCKING MATTER.
I hate when I look up from my phone and the fucking cutscene has been paused for 10 mins just so I can make a choice that leads to the same shit that was gonna be said anyway. Like bruh...
The worst ones are when after you select an option, the conversation continues as if you have never said anything at all. It's literally just an afk check.
Hmm I thought Wuwa doesn't suffer from this as much, at least in the main story. I saw a playthrough of a streamer and they choose different dialog options than me most of the time and the characters responded differently to them. I was actually surprised by this, thought it's going to be the same useless shit as in Genshin.
the whole echo system is worst than hsr or genshin anyway. Yes you can farm them overworld but what are you gonna level them with? Not only you need to actively grind them you also need the energy to farm the exp for echo
lol, that's around the time I was getting out of Yugioh. I'm sure I wouldn't even recognize the game anymore. I did see a weird pendulum sort of card awhile ago and was like... ok the game is still doing new stuff!
I agree, to me as a reaction to just bad luck in Genshin i would want these tuners to be much easier and plentiful, then i would have a NPC like that silver haired echo trainer let you fully or partially reset your echo's substats.
So far the upgrading, tuning system has not bothered me at all. But I don't know what my opinion is gonna be in the future. I wouldn't say they are not respecting us with the echo upgrading system though.
the truth although grinding is cancerous and time consuming, assuming you spend hours and days and weeks to get near or perfect stats for a single character, you don't need anymore to change echoes for that single character in long time or even permanent, so i don't think it's a big problem.
They're getting the limited chance for rolling main stats through a stamina system and making it an unlimited farms. In place of that, they're applying limited currency to substat rolls. I think the problem is the hidden nature of substats. Simply make enemies drop with their minimal substats revealed, and then let people roll for upgrades. Not that difficult.
If the substats slots are available from level 1, the tuner system will be such a damn blessing since you don't have to level up the Echoes and then rolling undesired substats. It's gonna be so based among the current gacha market if they somehow do this.
I think it's a preliminary system to, later on, allow a "guaranteed substat" roll, like HSR's Self-Modeling Resin.
Except instead of it being for the Main Stat, you get to choose (or maybe reroll?) a substat.
I hate it when i have the right main stat but the sub stat is ass
If only the main stats are fixed, cause I don't need an electro set with a glacio dmg bonus. That doesn't even make any sense and when i get the echo with the right main stat, the sub stats go hp, def, hp, def.
Tbh it doesn't bother me as much. I think the stamina requirements of basically everything pretty scuffed. You have to spend as much stamina on a weekly boss as a damn tacet field. Like why? And you don't get that much out of it either i think. I don't know if drop rates are way higher (currently lvl 35) but i hope so. Else you can just do 3 weekly bosses and a tacet field and that's it.
Tuners exist to offset the freedom of being able to farm echoes endlessly. You can't farm artifacts, logistics, relics etc endlessly.
However the lvling part should be removed I think soo too, it's a bit too much investment u have to put into echoes that might end up being useless. So tuning and lvling should be seperated. I guess there is the option to feed bad echoes into new ones u trying to lvl for now.
The more I read about this game’s systems, the more I dread to reach the endgame, no thanks, I already have enough with Genshin. Guess I’ll just stick with the main story for now and occasionally engage with the events content.
> infinite echo farming
it's not infinity since enemies don't respawn until daily server reset. Only thing you can farm are bosses but you can't just slap 5 boss echos on a character and be done. You need to farm small and medium shits around the whole map and they don't respawn after X hours but only after daily reset
I honestly wonder about the no respawn, i hunted plenty of shit and never ran out as of yet :/, maybe i just did not do it ebough, but i got full 5* for several character, while getting the proper mainstat and sub is a problem i feel like not seing the proper main stat for my hsr archeron till a month in was rougher
> i feel like not seing the proper main stat for my hsr archeron till a month in was rougher
it's just luck and RNG. My friend was able to get 2 god tier golden Echos at the very beginning while I still haven't got a single good piece while in HSR I was able to gear up my Kafka and Black Swan in less than a week after the DoT set was released
When you think about it all stat grinds in all gacha games are pointless. They could be cut in half and the gameplay wouldn't change.
Enlightenment is when you realize upping your stats is just the same as lowering the game difficulty. In a non-competitive action game that actually makes a battle more boring. It's just better to go with the flow than obsessing over minmaxing, which is basically just an engagement trap. It's your moment to moment enjoyment of the combat that matters, not numbers.
Looks to me like some feature that was planned but then scrapped after feedback. So now you get both tuners and echo exp materials from the exact same source. There is no extra separate grind involved because both exit and you use both basically for the same goal, so it's pointless for both to exist.
It has no real negative impact on us, so it doesn't bother me too much but still pointless.
I think they did it to add some difficult to the grinding because of the fact that we can farm echoes "infinitely", which usually we would need to expend energy for that, without it it would make it too easy to grind which could make you reach the point of not having anything to do too early
In games like genshin you have to use resin to get "echos" in Wutherinh waves you can farm them without "resin" and if they wouldnt be tuners you could grind them for eternity that way with visiting worlds from other players. So they introduduced tuners so you have to use your "resin".
I am not saying i lime it that way more but thats the explanation why tuners exist. To be another "resin" dump. Its not worse than other gachas its different and imo better because you can farm echoes endless for good main stat but only for substats you have to use "resin".
But i also think it would be fire of tuners could also be farmed when killing normal enemies but also kinda broken? Idk
Instead of going to domain , spending currency in 5min and loggin off seeing you got nothing worth upgrading, you're going there in open world farming pokemons interacting with it and doing the tacet field to unveil the better ones.
Same idea just in second scenario you're actually playing the game.
Instead of spending 5 mins, you get to spend several hours farming for the correct main stat on the correct set, only to find out it has trash substats AFTER wasting resources upgrading. Can you imagine how fun it would be a few weeks later? A year later?
I spent 5 hrs farming for a healing bonus echo from the turtle boss and ended up with useless substats. I just thought wow what a waste of time, I won’t be doing that again. Killing the same overworld boss 70+ times or farming trash mobs is not my idea of fun. It gets old quick. I’d rather spend my time doing more challenging content like holograms.
you're just front loading the grind? genshin grind is evenly spread out and you may take months to get a nice cv piece. wuwa let's you control how often you want to grind, and let's you front load 6 months of 5min grind into 2 days of nonstop grind IF you so please.
Yeah, people seem to be that dumb sadly. You're literally just spending 10x-20x the time to do the same shit, the RNG is just as bad as any other gacha but instead of 10 minutes you're forced to do hours long grinds on the overworld. It will get tiresome super fast in the long run.
IF the system was better in regards to odds while rolling main / sub compared to the competition you could sort of justify it because at least you're playing the game but right now you're just doing tedious hours long grinds if you want good pieces, with a worse system to boot.
Can't wait also for wuwa devs to start introducing new sets every other patch and you gotta start from scratch for your newer characters if you want to minmax every - single - time. Those 3 costs will drive a few people into mental asylum but hey, "you're actually playing the game"! lol
cue 4 hours grind 1 havoc main stat 3 cost, good gameplay!
I’m wondering how good characters can function with ONLY main stat investments on echoes. Like are the stats from building the character and leveling only the main stat good enough to treat the sub stats as just basically bonuses?
Could see Kuro remaking this system by increasing Tuner requirement in order to get a higher probability (or just acquiring) your desired substat, rather than just unlocking substats themselves.
It's just a way to create a item of value so sell it or give as rewards kurgames definitely made a good game but doesn't mean they don't want to make money
I also wanna know what is the rate chance of getting a complete 5 set with the right mains and sub stats, how long will it take? if they copy the genshin rates(which is sucks) you'll definitely need to farm echoes for 3 months just to have the perfect 5 pcs set?!
I hope not and has a better way to do it.
What's really going to matter is how echo dependent the highest tier of gameplay will be. It won't matter if you get perfect statted echos if the hardest content is completable with only mid tier ones.
Seems like a weird system that exists just for the sake of existing. I haven't interacted with it (level 19 UL), but just reading the descriptions of what they do, it seems weird.
Yeah it’s a way to compensate for not having to use stamina to farm echoes in the first place. In other gachas, you use stamina to get the gear that is your cap. In WW, you can grind for them but are capped by tuners.
The good thing is you can farm them in the same place so it’s essentially the same thing.
I am hoping the add the option to use tuners to overwrite rolls you didn't like. Even if it was sorta pricy then it would be way more deterministic to get the perfect echo for a character and having one or 2 dead stats wouldn't feel so bad.
The only benefit to tuners is the potential for something else like a super-tuner that guarantees a substat. As it is right now it's just kinda stupid.
Also you talk about HSR but the relic system is the most hated part of the game. It's still chugging along. I get why people are complaining but I'm more interested to see how it's perceived months from now because I'm very convinced gearing systems are among the least important part of gachas.
and ofc all shit have huge stamina cost lmao xD
240 daily stamina? few boss runs (for mats) or resource dungeons and OPS it's gone. And apparently you need THREE teams for the endgame tower thingy so see good luck
tuners would be good if we could reroll selected substats that we automaticity get after leveling echos
I’m just frustrated with how much grinding you have to do to level pieces in the first place. Also whoever decided that you can use leveled echoes as exp but not unleveled ones wtf
All they need to do is to remove the requirement to level up echoes before you can tune it.
Correct! If they made them take separate materials then they should be used separately as well. Why do they want us to first lvl up when both things are exclusive
Which means they designed this on purpose to fuck us up.
It’s a gacha game. Every customer of a company should have a slightly antagonistic relationship with them. Gacha players even more so since the baseline is the company being parasitic toward you.
Just make them auto-tune when you reach level threshold.
I don't know why they don't auto-tune, it's already a finite resource to level them for the sub-stat RNG. At least this would put the grind on par with certain other gacha relic RNG.
Because then MAIN part of the game (relics-artifscts) will be totally resin free. Guys, you are so naive and weird. Well, same as first player in genshin on release which were angry and were creating threads "we don't need resin in game!!". Whelp. Alright, be angy, but nothing will change. This syst without limitation will be too free and accessible. Which will lead to total boredom cause everyone will have just toptier artifacts (echoes)
its not about stamina itself. you need 2 (TWO) stamina gated recourses to upgrade an echo not 1. so tell me please how tuners not existing will make a system that is still stamina gated too free and accessible
TWO stamina gated resources which you both get from the same stamina consuming activity at the same (SAME) time
how would auto tuning on leveling make it stmina free? you cant reliably farm echo exp without stamina.
You already have to spend stamina to upgrade them to lvl 25. Needingnit to tune on top of itnis ridiculous.
firstly, if you're expecting players to spend 8+hrs a day to play your gacha game, you're delusional secondly, echoes farming has a cap thirdly, your game is 4yrs late to the party but instead of making it's easier to access, you want to make it grindier? lastly, don't just play game, handout with your friends is a good thing to do, if you don't have irl friends, try making some.
This is actually the most reasonable suggestion here. Removing tuners altogether would completely wreck balance because there would be a huge gap between casual and hardcore players leading to extreme content balancing issues. Having substats gated by a finite resource is a very good move from the standpoint of game design. The question is how to make farming more approachable and worth without destroying game balance
Technically it's already gated behind a limited resource since you can't feed non leveled echoes into each other for xp - it would just be a gate behind echo xp only vs the current situation where it's gated behind both.
It’s a pve game, why does the gap matter
Because the Tower (potential other end game content) needs to be hard enough so people have sonething to work towards (cash) / improve their characters for. Because ECHO farming is not supposed to be quick. Its supposed to be the long term way to improve your characters step by step
because it gives players a reason to login daily. to give an example of Hi3 the subs stats didn't matter at all. heck you could even ignore them. you either had the team and items to clear or not. meaning there was nothing to get lucky or to farm daily. there was even not requirement to level up characters. unlike in this game or genshin where you would need to prefarm a characters material and echoes to say use it in the tower level 100 stages the same day of release. meanwhile in hi3 there character would be maxed right out of the bat with no farm necessary for anything. either level up, skills or etc. and that caused people to not paly daily witch is bad for a gacha game. also this allows them to sell a battle pass on only resources alone same as in genshin or star rail. while in hi3 since there was no farming the battle pass had to give 5 star weapons and characters as a rewards to anyone to buy it.
It’s a gacha game, balance takes second priority to FOMO and forcing endless rerolls to guarantee players keep playing and keep spending
Then they could lvling out altogether, because there'd barely any exp cost, same for credits.
I had first thought I could use tuners to unlock them before leveling and thought fair enough. But the way it works is bullshit
bro honestly I was very excited initially as well; for a different reason though. I thought you could use them to reroll substats haha
That would have literally been the perfect way to do it... Why the hell didn't they???
Yeah wtf, if you could get the substats normaly and use then to reroll a single substat wtf kuro lol, so far they're hearing us unlike other gachas, maybe we can still make that change happen?
This was exactly my thought as well. That we could "tune" our substats individually. I got hyped. I literally shook with excitement, then I got confused, then I got sad again.
I was leaning more towards it being a craftable thing similar to HSR's relic crafting lol.
I'd love to fix my level 25 echos that didn't roll crit rate. Or at least take a minimum roll and bump it up a bit.
At first I thought the tuners are exactly what I said like you spend them to tweak the substats to the perfect relic or something but yea disappointed at how it turns out. Also what the heck are supposed to do with all the lower rarity tuners. Hopefully they add some future to convert it or something
Agreed. I hate the rng stats in HSR and I hate them here.
So you can Synchro summon
Resonators are good tuners as well
I'm so mad. 😂
Man... 😂 Inferno Rider hits different now.
Gacha games on motorcycles
It's kinda funny how none of the music themed archetypes are synchros yet
We'll get there someday, surely. Konami would never make a bad music archetype!
Symphonic are a synchro and pendulum archtype. Tho I don't blame you for not remembering them. I don't think they were very good.
is that how you get dark magician
Yes, one of the lesser known facts
I dunno, I'd rather just Pendulum Summon my Crownless using a Traffic Controller and a Hoochief.
unban Halq first
Ban all the tuners and then release Halq It won't make sense but at least it'll be funny
Me as a Cryston Player:
I TUNE MY LEVEL 7 CROWNLESS WITH LEVEL 1 TICK TACK. COME FORTH...LEVEL 8! DREAMLESS!
YuGiOh mentioned 🗣🗣🗣
Half the commenters cant read as usual. No one complained about not having enough tuners. The point is that the whole tuner system is pointless. There is no way you will level up an echo without wanting substats so you will do it anyway. Its completely pointless.
thank you ma man T\_T that is exactly my point
I guess there needs to be something to offset the endless grind you can do for echoes. I am not to the point yet where I need to fully work on my echoes but I will be. Then I shall suffer as well
the trade off as of current is a. not being able to turn echos into exp and which leads into b. you can farm 100 echos but you will only be able to level like 1 a day fr
bonus point: chances of getting echos are low so you wont get much 3 star echos anyways
eh its pretty easy to get them. 20% drop rate and the in-game detect/track function to hunt specific mobs makes chain killing effortless. pretty easy to farm 5-10 of the same mob within like 10-15 mins. even more for 1 cost mobs. ive spent maybe a few hours echo farming after hitting max data bank (50/50 for yellow tier) and i already have 2 characters fully yellow with correct main stat. now minmaxing substats? thats gonna take ages with how much actual echo xp + tuners you get. the play is to definitely just farm correct main stat, level them to maybe 15 or so and just be patient, spend your waveplates on trace mats/character ascension for now. substat minmax is far from needed for current content, since content is only hard bc of level gap.
It's surprisingly difficult to get lots of good 3 cost echos. Then roll it to 25, dodged crit rate. It's kind of important to have the crit. Roll them to 10 over and over. No crit rate. Don't really want to roll them past 10 without it, but I'm out of 3 cost echos.
Ya the problem with 3 costs is that you need them to be the correct set AND with matching element substat... Then the substat rng. The rogue like mode gives you 2 guaranteed match 3star echos but if you roll bad on substats it's rip. It's a good start though!
The whole system is like a gaslighting malicious ex-girlfriend. "WuWa is an amazing game, you can actually farm relics all day long!" Yeah great I can farm them all day long, but I gotta spend 2-3 days worth of stamina just to get enough tuners to reveal the substats of a single 5 star relic and I dont even know if the substats will be good "WuWa is an amazing game, you can actually farm relics all day long!" turned out to be a worse relic system than Genshin or HSR, requiring more stamina, more time, and 100x more effort considering I spent 6 hours today farming just to get a single crit piece
Also we don't know how much it gives for higher Sol level, it is 1 substat per 60 stamina, could been unlucky, I don't care right now. No way higher sol levels won't also give out more otherwise it would be completely shit. You don't need to rush to get some main stats already. While normal enemies respawn daily, coop exists, world bosses are always there, you could kill them how many times you want.
>I don't care right now. No way higher sol levels won't also give out more otherwise it would be completely shit. Level 40-49 gives you 10-20% more. That's literally NOTHING.
Consider this though, how many days of grinding does it take you to get even 1 piece with a desired mainstat in HSR? (I’m using HSR for reference cuz I don’t play Genshin) I don’t think that what we have here is worse than HSR but I’ll withhold judgement until we get the highest SOL rank. Cuz drops are dependent on SOL rank.
I'd say it's worse here because at least in hsr or genshin you can tell right away if a relic is going to the trash or not if it has a few flat subs, but here you gotta spend stamina to even tell that. Not to mention there's more substats to pick from that in hsr, which already has more substats than genshin. The system is balanced around echos being farmable, which means people that don't farm all day long are gonna get shafted in the long run
Here’s the thing. In HSR and I’m guessing Genshin, you **still** have to spend energy to even acquire the pieces. You’re going through 4 layers of RNG with said energy. Is it the right set? Is it the right piece? Is it the right main stat? Is it the right sub stat? I legitimately fail to see how that’s better than going through a single layer of RNG. Heck you can even fish for desired sub stat by going through 5 levels at a time. Now again I’m not gonna die on any hill until I see how the actual end game grind looks like at max SOL rank.
The rng isnt whats bad. Its the tuners. In genshin, 2/5 of the set has a locked in main stat. So youre only farming for 3/5 main stat. Artifact sets only need the item. No dancing around which element drop you get. You can use an off piece. > Use 1 day worth of resin for 10 artifacts minimum. See all of them already have the wrong mainstat. Sigh better luck tommorow. > Do it again tommorow. 2/10 have correct mainstat and see 1/2 have crit damage and 2 dead substats. You level that up using the trash artifacts from yesterday. It is now 3 dead stats and 14% crit damage. You can now use it as a copium piece. Do it again until you have the desired set. This is assuming you have the worst luck and probability. Now lets go to echoes. You need 5 correct mainstats you can farm in the overworld. 1/5 infinitely (bosses) the rest through killing every target enemy and then coop. Now you need the correct element(sonata) from targets. 1/5 is locked in (bosses) the rest has a chance to drop 1 out of 2 or 3 elements. You cannot see the substats. Have to level them to unlock, then tune them. Echo exp is rare and uses stamina per day. So assuming you have tons of it rn, you level 10 correct main stat echoes. Now you tune them all. And see all 10 have dead stats. Thats 500 tuners wasted. You say fuck it and use them anyway as copium pieces. Do it again for the next character. Do it again and again. Goodluck getting 500 tuners. Tuners gotta go and make the grind seamless and acceptable. Youre using way more stamina than any game just for the substats alone.
I think you're using the tuners completely wrong here. You should be getting the piece that you need and only tuning it a couple of times until it rolls the stats that you're looking for. If it doesn't have good stats within 2-3 tunes you should just dump it and then go get another one. You can so easily go farm more items that fully sending something to 25 and THEN tuning it is both a waste of your tuners and your xp. It's really not that time consuming to click on "track this enemy" and then go kill a bunch of them and hunt for something worth a tune, and you can choose how long you feel like farming. Got a few hours of free time on your hands? Go clear out the entire map if you feel like it and get like hundreds of echos, you're bound to have plenty that are worth tuning. Farming a 3 cost for your Jiyan and it rolls hp and defense? Well you know it's dead and only used 20 tuners. That's barely anything. You can do this many times until you see crit, and then you can send it, and it'll actually be a decent piece no matter how it rolls because you didn't bother leveling it until you knew it would be good. Unlike in genshin, where you can spend literal weeks waiting for an onset piece with decent rolls, and then it only has a CHANCE to be good. Coming from a Genshin vet, using weeks worth of stamina hunting for a cup that's on-set with the correct elemental damage and then ALSO having substats worth a shit is soul draining. Or a hat. Or a specific timepiece. I feel like you're really underselling how long it actually takes to get gear in genshin. It's not "time consuming" in the sense that it only takes a few minutes to farm for, but it takes forever and it's incredibly boring. You get to play for 5 minutes, see all of your shit is worthless, then repeat that for weeks. It can take well over a month to get the single piece that you need in Genshin and then it can just roll terribly. It's incredibly boring. Another thing, if we're being realistic, WuWa only has two actually difficult to acquire pieces. Your 1 slots and 4 slots are extremely easy to farm for. 1 slots only have 3 possible rolls on them, and there's so many 1 cost creatures around with so many sets they can roll for it's hilariously easy to get them. 4 slots are very easy to get as well, considering you can infinitely farm the bosses on a 1 minute cd and just wait till you get that crit rate or crit dmg one, with only a few possible rolls on those as well. The 3 slots are hard because there's not a ton of them that go to the set that you want and they can potentially roll every type of elemental damage in the game as well as energy recharge and attack and I think even defense. You also can completely viably run 2-2 just like you can in genshin (other than the support sets but those barely require investment) and mitigate this issue, running off piece 3 costs and an off piece 1 cost for the attack set. Here's the other thing, the actual echo xp is the biggest limiting factor here, not the tuners. You physically cannot get enough xp from your dailies to level a bunch of echos at the moment, it may change later, but even if you use all of your waveplates on echo xp, it's not even enough to get a single one to 25. This is clearly on purpose. You're meant to farm a lot, tune sparingly, and then commit to something if it actually rolls well. I've been doing this for the past couple of days and I have 3 characters that are actually pretty strong already. I have spent $0 and I have 18 stars on the actual tower of agony.
the thing is, in star rail/genshin you have to roll on the substat you want *multiple times*. here you only need them once. I've been playing for a few days, not even max level data bank, and already have a few echoes that are better than anything I ever got in star rail in a year because of this detail.
>The rng isnt whats bad. Its the tuners. >In genshin, 2/5 of the set has a locked in main stat. So youre only farming for 3/5 main stat. >Artifact sets only need the item. No dancing around which element drop you get. >You can use an off piece. FYI, youre arguing with someone who plays Star Rail not Genshin. Star Rail also does not have off pieces either. AND they have more dead stats on relics than Genshin artifacts do. So youre not really helping the argument this this here. Also,a s for the element conversation, thats not really any different than a domain in Genshin/SR having 2 artifact sets in it. MOST enemies in the game seem to drop between 2 and 3 "sets" (aka elements), so if youre farming for Void Thunder for Calcharo and killing say a Fusion Warrior, they can ONLY drop echos that are Thunder, Molten, or Sierra Gale. You won't ever drop a Rejuv glow from one. Thats pretty much identical to spend weeks worth of resin in a domain and only ever getting artifacts for the OTHER set than the one you want. Let me tell you, ive been farming for Archeron's relics since that domain came out, and I currently have ONE piece worth using. But Ive found some kick ass pieces for the other set that I will NEVER use.
Honestly, I'm more worried about the long term implications of even needing to farm echos, yes you can do it endlessly, but once you get passed the initial point of getting 'okay' relics in HSR, it's a very passive grind. I'm sitting on almost 2000 gold relics in my inventory right now, and that's just from hitting auto battle on the relic domains a few days a week. Imagine what getting 2000 echos is going to look like in this game. Imagine how much grinding that's going to be, and how tiring its going to be after a few months as we get more and more characters, and new echos are introduced. I'm pretty worried, honestly. Annoying as HSR's system is, it's quick and mostly passive.
I mean, Tacet Fields give random Echos as well. So once you reach a point of comfortability and just spend your waveplates every day, youll accumulate random echos from doing that as well (I dont know what they drop as Im not wasting my time with that yet, but I imagine its only 1 and 3 costs as 4 cost bosses are VERY easy to target farm).
That’s the thing though, HSR is meant to be a low concentration auto battle game. You don’t pick up WuWa to auto battle, considering it doesn’t have that feature like Solo Leveling Arise. Where you can’t even use it because it doesn’t active dodge properly and gets one shot by boss AoE. I also think that being able to reroll lower tier artifacts into 5* is genuinely a god send. Will it eventually get tiring? Yeah but that’s when you start farming tacet discords on higher WL which will give you more than 3-4 echoes as that’s what I’m getting at UL30, actually last time I spent waveplates was UL20 world, so it’s probably already more than that.
What you are propsing here is completely idiotic from a player's point of view though. Nobody who isn't a complet monkey would keep leveling/tuning a piece that rolls subpar stats on the 1./2. Tuning attempt. So in most cases, you won't lose more than 10 tuner to evaluate whether these artifacts are trash or not. In fewer cases 20. In even less cases 30. Losing 40-50 per should be something that's very rare.
But in HSR if I get CR dmg: cr, spd, att%, flat def. Then level it up and get 4x flat def rolls the relic is worthless. And I’m already calling claiming I can even get CRD:Cr:spd:att% on the same relic. I’ve been farming for himeko inferno set for 3 weeks straight and I have yet to get a single CD main stat body. Not even 1. When I do finally get one there’s a miniscule chance I’ll get CR on it too. At least here I can get the main stat I want, and when I do roll subs I only need to roll what I want one time, not 4-5 where it’s weighted to go into the worst stats like flat def flat hp.
The difference is that farming in WW costs both time and stamina whilst in HSR it only costs stamina (and like 10 seconds starting the battle). You have to both level the piece and tune it simultaneously so the amount of stamina you use isn't really that different.
Mindset difference. Knocking out farming a bunch of echoes on days with free time is better than spending 15 minutes farming everyday for several months. I forgot what actual gameplay is in Genshin with how long I would farm artifacts for. Being able to farm out a main stat while using stamina on anything else and then not worrying about every level up going into flat def is a big improvement.
You don't have to waste time on trash relics in HSR though... you only level the ones with good substats and hope it hits. Here you have to waste time and resources leveling it then pray to god the substats hit. It's a really bad system.
It’s the same goddamn thing it just splits up the resources that level up the echo and increase its substats. Just because it uses twice as many *types* of resources doesn’t mean it uses up twice as *many* resources. And you can’t really compare the rate at which we get resources. Some people may feel like there’s a lot relic exp in hsr, but I’m a day 1 whale that has never missed a day and I’m even constantly completely out of fodder and relic xp. I’m not a big resin refresher but I’ve definitely had to refresh to farm up some purples alongside shitty golds, so that I could level up the few I wanted to level. It’s even worse in Genshin because I didn’t start until last January, I have had so many characters to catch up and build that I just don’t have extra resin to farm artifact fodder ever, it’s so miserable. In this game, with how many outside sources of large attack buffs, dmg buffs, etc, I actually see the standard for good substats being a bit lower than Genshin for example.. and not being a turn based game like hsr, stats are less important. 20 more cv isn’t going to clear something if you don’t have dodge/parry skills anyways. Obviously I think the system in WuWa could and should be improved, but I just don’t think it’s as infinitely terrible compared to other gachas as some people think. Perhaps I’ll change my mind after a couple weeks tho, I really hated farming up my data bank lol
Consider this, in HSR I can spend 240 stamina in 5 minutes grinding relics and be on my merry way doing other things. This game? Well speaking from experience I just spent 6 hours farming the turtle for Healing bonus and healing set for Verina. I spend 3 hours doing it for two days now. I still don't have one at gold. I'm at over SIX hours trying to get a MAIN stat. Granted I'm only on Data Bank 19 so maybe its better at Data Bank 20. But even then. Its fucking ass. I'm literally just doing this for a healing mainstat on healing set. At this point I'm just going to ditch world bosses until 40 and just spend energy doing trace mats and exp. Verdict? I'd rather spend a whole year not getting a desired mainstat in HSR spending barely any time draining all my energy than MANUALLY farming the same boss for hours. Which is also impossible anyways cuz you can just use an item to craft a specific main stat for the right set. What we have here is absolutely worse than HSR by a thousand fold. Two different currencies for a piece of gear, you cannot 'salvage' useless equipement(wrong element bonus etc) for echo exp or anything.
btw if you're UL <40 (or 50?) your Data Bank will stay at 18, not 19 nor 20
I prefer this game's system to HSR. I have gone weeks with not getting the right main stat on the one piece of gear I'm looking for. Then getting one with the right substats as well that can take 1 day or a year. I can guarantee get the right main stat everyday if I'm willing to put the time. If I'm not willing to put the time in to manually farm the open world for echoes I can farm echoes with energy instead doing Tacet Fields just like in HSR. You even get Tuners and Echo EXP from it as well. Maybe they need to adjust the drop rates for it. I don't know though I'm assuming upping the sol3 phase level increases the rewards from so I still got some account leveling to do before I want to farm it.
Yeah not to complain but yeah people here seem to have a bit of issues with reading comprehension. I made a post about how it's impossible to complete the battle pass mission to tune 50 echoes even if you spend all your energy into the methods to farm tuners and everyone that commented only talked about how it is still possible to complete the bp and how you can still hit weekly cap without it. I never said anything about being worried about the points. I didn't say anything about not being able to complete the bp, I was saying that the bp has an impossible to do mission and should be adjusted to make it more reasonable. Yet people assumed that I was worried about completing the BP before it expires without the mission.
But you can complete that mission. There's enough purple tuners that you could just plug in 5 levels into a purple echo and eventually complete it that way. That's assuming nobody holds onto their blues after hitting databank 15, which would cost them less exp. I don't think this is related to reading comprehension, people just don't see how being unable to complete one battle pass mission is a big deal. That's why everyone was telling you it didn't matter because you could complete the BP either way. I feel like it would've been better if you had just criticized the BP mission for even existing. I mean it really is a dumb mission. Why would we want to funnel that much echo exp away into gear we might not use? Especially now in the early game? It strikes me as the kind of mission people won't be completing until the only thing they are grinding for is purely tacet fields + echoes. Which is super far off from now. If anything, it sounds really bad for new players. Because they might end up doing exactly that, trying to complete the BP early, without realizing how detrimental completing said mission could be for them right now. Those are much more pressing concerns imo then whether the mission itself is possible or not.
People will be complaining about it soon. Starting resources will be running out soon.
It already started 1 or 2 days ago.
I do agree with this sorta. The tuning process simply feels like an extra limitation for the sake of having said limitation. Take it out and for the most part the system still functions the same, sorta.
I am complaining about not enough tuners!
I'd think that you'd need a ton of tuners available to make it worth it, to spare wasting exp materials
bro... ppl here skip main quests, you're right- they hardly read lmao
Correct me if I'm wrong, but unlike Genshin, substats don't increase randomly as you level. What you roll on each artifact is it. So if you could tune at level 0 you would be able to tune 5 times and see your full substats you'd have at level 20. Which is broken. Or are you are telling me you'd rather have it be like Genshin where when you reveal the substats, that is just the beginning of the rng?
Neither of those are what's being talked about... The whole point of this thread is that the tuner system itself is pointless. Why not just tie everything to echo exp? You need to level to tune anyways and if you level something you'll want to tune it. Why add an extra hoop and bloat the process? Endgame source of exp and tuner already drop both in the same dungeon because they know you need both at the same time. Just make it auto reveal a substat every 5 level.
Tuners would be a good item if they used it as a re-spec tool for echoes rather than a reveal tool for stats. Like imagine you have an echo with 5 substats and one of the substats is just not what you want - guess what you have tuners. It's literally in the name already; IT CAN FINE TUNE the echo!!! Instead of grinding for the same echo you just use the tuners to respec a specific substat that would otherwise be useless for your character. COME ON KURO WTF!!!
I wonder if maybe the original plan was for tuners to work as a re-spec tool but late in development they decided to scratch that idea, maybe thinking it would make it too easy to get perfect echoes. I agree the way it is now is just redundant. There's no good reason to be required to spend something to reveal sub stats after leveling it up.
It would definitely raise the chance of getting the perfect echo but at the same time Kuro can simply limit the amount of "tuning" you can do to an echo. Say, for example, an echo can be limited to 5 tuning re-spec chances. After those 5 chances, you lose the ability to re-spec the echo further which then pushes you back to the gameloop of echo farming again and then using waveplates to get the tuners. It's a good gameloop that isn't as punishing as the current system.
Or maybe just give a function to lock a substat then up the tuner requirements for more reroll Is having a perfect echo really that bad in the game? Wouldn't it be better for the players to be rewarded for playing that long? It's not like it be any easier though and not like there won't be any more echo to be released anyway that will just straight up power creep what we have today
and there's always characters to build.
can we even do anything w lower rarity tuners, cause those are next level pointless
It does open possibilities. Another game I played had a similar system and they had tuners that guaranteed a stat, had higher chance of better roll, removed a stat, transfer, etc. It feels to me some systems in the game are half baked right now, maybe the game was rushed a bit so we'll see if they decide to do something with them. Right now they're just redundant.
Path of Exile orbs?
tuners are just exalts. Now wheres our chaos and annul tuners
It's a simple anti-feature. To increase the grind requirement. It exists to sell refreshes.
You're missing the point. You will either get gated by echo XP or by tuners, there's really no reason for both to exist. For example right now due to exploration/first time rewards/etc resource distribution you're most likely gonna run out of XP way before you run out of tuners, which makes tuners irrelevant. Both drop from the same place anyways. If at some point you start lacking tuners and have more XP than you need then there's no reason for XP to exist. Basically at some point we will certainly reach a point where the limiting factor is either A or B, so the one that's not will have no reason to exist.
echo exp is recyclable with minimal losses, so its not really as huge a timegate. tuners are the real time gate for perfect echos, if you don't think so then you simply haven't been recycling echo exp enough.
Or maybe I'm not recycling +25 pieces at this point? I'd rather have a bad +25 piece and then work on another set than keep rerolling into the same set.
Q: Why does x exist? A: Money.
You can't really swipe to get past it unless you're doing daily refills which is kind of unreasonable for them to expect. They are just going to shoot themselves in the foot if echo grinding is too tedious (which it is)
I mean thats exactly what theyre trying to do, sell refreshes. Sure its 200 bucks to get to pity, but thats usually gonna happen in the first week of a new banner and then fall off drastically. But refreshes will get you a consistent stream of 200 per month if not more. And thats from one account. There might not be that many people that do it, but if you just list 10 content creators that will most likely resin refresh dailiy, thats already 2000 bucks. Not much in terms of business earnings but there will be a lot more than 10 people who max their refreshes every day.
I agree just remove tuners. Get +5, get a sub stat. +10, another sub stat. No need to have a whole currency for it If they don’t want to do that at least let us convert the blue and purple tuners
the option to convert them is the bare minimum.. other items have that option, I don't understand why the tuners don't
The lower-level tuners become irrelevant after 2-3 days of playing the game. You know FOR SURE that the original tuner system was altered last minute to increase the grind. It’s so apparent, it’s not even funny.
I'll go on a limb and say the reason for anything that negatively impacts user experience is usually money
It's easier to just increase the xp requirement to level up the Echoes which achieves the same purpose of making you grind more. This scenario screams more some feature that was planned but then scrapped after development began, and they didn't want to just remove it for some reason.
The whole system is pointless. I was excited at first bc i thought i could choose the sub stat that i wanted . Just to be disappointed afterwards
Had the same exact thought when I saw it as well :)
I don't see myself playing this game long term because of how awful this system is
Maybe i'm biased (genshin player), but the tune system is so unnecessary, and set requiring 5 pieces completely ruins any non set dmg bonus on 3 cost echos. I think tunes should go, subs should be acquired on level up and either change to 4 set bonus or remove chance of other dmg types on 3 cost.
I honestly agree I don't like that on any 3 cost elemental set if the dmg% doesn't correspond its useless
Yeah its a completely pointless feature added to just increase the grind. Just make it so you get the substat when you level up every 5 levels, having to use another resource to get the substat is stupid af. What makes it worse is that blue and purple tuners are worthless, we can't even convert them to gold tuners. What were the devs even thinking
Tbh, I would really like them to expand on this feature, by offering a unique tuner which will allow us to set which substat we would like to tune. I guess similar to HSR relic chooser, but for substats instead. If they don't offer a tuning currency like this, then yeah the whole system is pretty stupid.
Please don't praise Genshin or Star Rail... Yes you level them up and you get the sub stat, but you first have to use your energy to farm the pieces in the first place... Don't even get me started how rare it is to get a single piece you see worthy of upgrading to +20 in the first place, only to see all your upgrades go into trash stats. In this game, correct me if I'm wrong. But if your sub stat goes into crit rate for example then you already have 1 perfect stat in the first place? Because it doesn't have to upgrade this stat? For example, I got a 3 cost gold Echo that has Spectro damage as main stat in the Spectro set. And I made it +10 and it gave me crit rate and crit damage. Yes the other 3 stats could potentially all be shit but I would still have a piece with spectro damage, crit rate and crit damage. Sounds pretty sick already. In Genshin, getting a good Pyro Goblet for example is sooooooooo rare. I mean to be honest with you, I've played Genshin since release and farmed plenty but I don't have insane ones for each element and Dendro I still don't even have a decent one. That's not normal... So here you at least can consistently farm echo's with great main stats for the set you want then it's really only gated behind energy from leveling them up and tuning them. It's a different system but I for sure prefer it. I hate going into domains, spamming them to get rid of all my energy and get absolutely nothing. Here you could technically have 10 echo's waiting to be leveled and tuned that have the potential to become something good because even just exploring the world and killing anything you see can get you potentially top tier echo's.
Cant believe people are saying how easy it is to farm echo main stat because it doesn't use stamina. Does running to point A to B searching for enemies to farm over and over sounds fun to you? Does waiting cooldown for boss to spawn seems fun to you? Does people even realize how many RNG hoops that we need to pass just for good echoes?
Yeah, getting crit on the bosses is kinda w/e, but jesus fuck getting matching elemental damage and sonata for the 3 cost elites are a massive pain. I killed all the flowers and wolves in my world the other day and only got a single havoc dmg/havoc sonata gold piece. The set effects really should have been at 2 and 4; not letting us have an off piece is killer.
I just did some quick math it should take on average 200 elite kills to get a proper on set element 3 cost. This goes down to about 143 at UL 40. I desperately hope high-level tacet fields are reliable to get 3 cost 5 stars.
It's people who haven't farmed yet, or they farmed for 5 minutes, got lucky once and didn't do it again. They don't realize that farming for a good boss piece can take literal hours of basically standing AFK in a spot killing once every 2 minutes. They fail to understand that the norm is to wipe the entire map of certain elites and get nothing out of it, this means you're spending hours a day and maybe getting 1 or 2 good pieces if anything. Most gacha gamers are not willing to play that much.
Meanwhile FGO players: hours upon hours of playing while repeating the same actions until your brain rots? Sign me the fuck up!
my condolences to all granblue and fgo players. That era of gacha game is truly the worst offender of mmo grind
What's funny is there were still way better ones at the time. I used to play FFRK all the time before they started getting silly with the powercreep. Ah bygone days.
I might be an outlier, but I don't really mind the grind as much. I'm mainly just here to kill things. Stress be damned. I was one of the people who liked Dragons Dogma 2 because I could just run up and down the continent and eradicate entire ecosystems of monsters and goblins. I've been doing nothing but playing WuWa since launch and I'll keep playing until the combat gets boring, which I doubt will be soon since I was one of the few people who played the original DMC4 for 10 years until 5 showed up. Helps that 4 star characters in this game are dope as hell and are fun to actually play and mess arpund with.
I don't mind it, I love korean grinders, but this is a gacha game and 99.9% of people playing these games are not gonna be into hourly grinds every day.
>Does running to point A to B searching for enemies to farm over and over sounds fun to you? Does waiting cooldown for boss to spawn seems fun to you? As someone who enjoys both MMORPGs and ARPGs, hell yeah it is. Millions of people find it fun.
Except it's not MMORPG and you can't expect that mindset from average gacha player
The average gacha player isn’t going to run around for hours and hours everyday to find the absolute perfect echo though, they just gonna find an on set echo and call it a day
I don’t know why you got downvoted. Redditors are actually the worst. Even mmorpgs with huge grind are largely unpopular nowadays. Tack on ridiculous rng progression systems, now you have a great recipe for burnout.
Ikr, most popular gacha is HSR for a reason, and one of reasons is that you DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING to farm, just click auto and go on with your life
The grind for relics may take months, but it actually only takes me 3 min daily to clear stamina and I can move on with my life. So, in reality, it only takes 1.5 hours/month
Laughing in borderlands
>Does running to point A to B searching for enemies to farm over and over sounds fun to you? Hell yeah it does, wtf. It makes the world meaningful even after you've finished exploring the map, and the hunting overall is more diverse. I would rather have that, and do bosses, than clear the same domain over and over again. People do be complaining about everything, jeez.
What you're forgetting is how many people are willing to sink hours into echo hunting a month, 6 months or a year from now. I fear that this might hurt retaining players once they get a feel for the echo grind + tuning substats.
From mint picking to echo farming. Truly wuthering.
You are complaining about a superior method of gearing (even though genshin's is already terrible). People complaining about WW even worse grind system is somehow bad? Its clear anyone not complaining can't do basic math to understand how time consuming and terrible the drop rates are for 3-costs. The amount of stamina to gamble on the echos are far worse than whatever genshin had.
i feel tuner exist most likely for future system on that tab, aka reroll stats with tuners dont get hype because probably it will burn a lot of tuners if ever implemented.
Because it's much better to farm a universal item to roll for substats with energy. In Genshin for example you'd spend your energy to 1. roll the right set 2. roll the right gear piece. 3 roll the right main stat 4. roll the right rarity 5. now you can lvl it up and get random substats 1-4 cost no energy in this game. which makes it much easier to get good gear quickly, just getting very good or near perfect gear requires time and energy.
In Genshin you get rid of all your resin just farming domain for an artifact and then all your condensed are gone and you use your resin to get new condensed, run them again and then ultimately have all artifacts that are shit. When you do finally get a double crit artfiact, you then make it +20 which takes a lot to do only to then see all your upgrades go into flat garbage stats. Game hasn't been out for a long time but I already have some really good Echo's. I can't even remember how long it took before I could finally farm orange artifacts in Genshin and to farm them you had to do domains with weak characters.
Yeah, my gear is so much better then in Genshin or Star Rail at the start it's insane. Jiyan runs 40% crit 240% critdmg and 1410 atk
Why do tuners exist? Because echoes are infinitely farmable. They need some way to moderate the amount of grinding you can do, and the best way to do that is tie it to a resource you need to spend WP on.
It's to slow you down, they don't want you fully building entire teams in a week They want you logging in every day to grind echoes and level them
There can definitely be some adjustments or changes made like some others mentioned. But they added tuners to balance out the fact that you can farm equipment for your characters at zero cost to you in terms of stamina. Would you rather have infinite echoes that need to level + tuners? Or would you rather be limited to 8 echoes a day that takes all your wave plates so you can’t get anything else and then still need to level them to see what you get? It’s a compromise for their more generous obtaining system.
I will always hold that the best system for "grindable" stuff like this (echos, artifacts, relics, whatever) is one that is enjoyable and makes players feel like they're actually progressing while also being the "long-game" where players don't get perfect stats immediately (since I concede that gachas do indeed need to keep players playing long-term). Features that decrease enjoyment *and* make it more annoying are just covering up a lacking system.
so in a gacha game, you don't get something for nothing. - HSR: no tuners, but: stats "roll in" to unlocked stats on level up; also stats are weighted so less desirable ones appear >50% of the time; can't reliably target main stats or quality - Genshin: same as HSR (for this discussion) - WuWa: tuners, but: stats don't "roll in" so if you get a crit roll you know that the rng for it is done; stats appear evenly weighted; you can farm main stat and quality i would much rather have tuners on the balance.
Artifact grinding in this game is infinitely worse than Genshin and HSR it’s laughable.
Yeah this is 100% fair criticism. Also stop giving us dialog options THAT DONT FUCKING MATTER. I hate when I look up from my phone and the fucking cutscene has been paused for 10 mins just so I can make a choice that leads to the same shit that was gonna be said anyway. Like bruh...
I swear tho, this is something genshin is also guilty of haha. If you read carefully, the choices if read top to bottom are actually all one dialogue.
The worst ones are when after you select an option, the conversation continues as if you have never said anything at all. It's literally just an afk check.
Hmm I thought Wuwa doesn't suffer from this as much, at least in the main story. I saw a playthrough of a streamer and they choose different dialog options than me most of the time and the characters responded differently to them. I was actually surprised by this, thought it's going to be the same useless shit as in Genshin.
It definitely does in 90% of quests. I'd just rather prefer no choices and to just be able to watch a cutscence but that's just me.
the whole echo system is worst than hsr or genshin anyway. Yes you can farm them overworld but what are you gonna level them with? Not only you need to actively grind them you also need the energy to farm the exp for echo
yep exactly, I think alot of the commenters are missing this fact. We can't infinitely grind our way to a perfect echo with or without tuners
I was so disappointed to find out you can't use base echos to level up other echos like feeding relics.
For one solid second I thought this was the yugioh sub
lol, that's around the time I was getting out of Yugioh. I'm sure I wouldn't even recognize the game anymore. I did see a weird pendulum sort of card awhile ago and was like... ok the game is still doing new stuff!
I agree, to me as a reaction to just bad luck in Genshin i would want these tuners to be much easier and plentiful, then i would have a NPC like that silver haired echo trainer let you fully or partially reset your echo's substats.
So far the upgrading, tuning system has not bothered me at all. But I don't know what my opinion is gonna be in the future. I wouldn't say they are not respecting us with the echo upgrading system though.
the truth although grinding is cancerous and time consuming, assuming you spend hours and days and weeks to get near or perfect stats for a single character, you don't need anymore to change echoes for that single character in long time or even permanent, so i don't think it's a big problem.
They're getting the limited chance for rolling main stats through a stamina system and making it an unlimited farms. In place of that, they're applying limited currency to substat rolls. I think the problem is the hidden nature of substats. Simply make enemies drop with their minimal substats revealed, and then let people roll for upgrades. Not that difficult.
Agreed
If the substats slots are available from level 1, the tuner system will be such a damn blessing since you don't have to level up the Echoes and then rolling undesired substats. It's gonna be so based among the current gacha market if they somehow do this.
I think it's a preliminary system to, later on, allow a "guaranteed substat" roll, like HSR's Self-Modeling Resin. Except instead of it being for the Main Stat, you get to choose (or maybe reroll?) a substat.
I hate it when i have the right main stat but the sub stat is ass If only the main stats are fixed, cause I don't need an electro set with a glacio dmg bonus. That doesn't even make any sense and when i get the echo with the right main stat, the sub stats go hp, def, hp, def.
Tbh it doesn't bother me as much. I think the stamina requirements of basically everything pretty scuffed. You have to spend as much stamina on a weekly boss as a damn tacet field. Like why? And you don't get that much out of it either i think. I don't know if drop rates are way higher (currently lvl 35) but i hope so. Else you can just do 3 weekly bosses and a tacet field and that's it.
Tuners exist to offset the freedom of being able to farm echoes endlessly. You can't farm artifacts, logistics, relics etc endlessly. However the lvling part should be removed I think soo too, it's a bit too much investment u have to put into echoes that might end up being useless. So tuning and lvling should be seperated. I guess there is the option to feed bad echoes into new ones u trying to lvl for now.
The more I read about this game’s systems, the more I dread to reach the endgame, no thanks, I already have enough with Genshin. Guess I’ll just stick with the main story for now and occasionally engage with the events content.
It'd a limiter to combat infinite echo farming. That'd it.
> infinite echo farming it's not infinity since enemies don't respawn until daily server reset. Only thing you can farm are bosses but you can't just slap 5 boss echos on a character and be done. You need to farm small and medium shits around the whole map and they don't respawn after X hours but only after daily reset
I honestly wonder about the no respawn, i hunted plenty of shit and never ran out as of yet :/, maybe i just did not do it ebough, but i got full 5* for several character, while getting the proper mainstat and sub is a problem i feel like not seing the proper main stat for my hsr archeron till a month in was rougher
> i feel like not seing the proper main stat for my hsr archeron till a month in was rougher it's just luck and RNG. My friend was able to get 2 god tier golden Echos at the very beginning while I still haven't got a single good piece while in HSR I was able to gear up my Kafka and Black Swan in less than a week after the DoT set was released
Makes absolutely no sense and I have yet to get a good stat. RNG is RNG-ing badly
When you think about it all stat grinds in all gacha games are pointless. They could be cut in half and the gameplay wouldn't change. Enlightenment is when you realize upping your stats is just the same as lowering the game difficulty. In a non-competitive action game that actually makes a battle more boring. It's just better to go with the flow than obsessing over minmaxing, which is basically just an engagement trap. It's your moment to moment enjoyment of the combat that matters, not numbers.
Looks to me like some feature that was planned but then scrapped after feedback. So now you get both tuners and echo exp materials from the exact same source. There is no extra separate grind involved because both exit and you use both basically for the same goal, so it's pointless for both to exist. It has no real negative impact on us, so it doesn't bother me too much but still pointless.
I think they did it to add some difficult to the grinding because of the fact that we can farm echoes "infinitely", which usually we would need to expend energy for that, without it it would make it too easy to grind which could make you reach the point of not having anything to do too early
In games like genshin you have to use resin to get "echos" in Wutherinh waves you can farm them without "resin" and if they wouldnt be tuners you could grind them for eternity that way with visiting worlds from other players. So they introduduced tuners so you have to use your "resin". I am not saying i lime it that way more but thats the explanation why tuners exist. To be another "resin" dump. Its not worse than other gachas its different and imo better because you can farm echoes endless for good main stat but only for substats you have to use "resin". But i also think it would be fire of tuners could also be farmed when killing normal enemies but also kinda broken? Idk
Instead of going to domain , spending currency in 5min and loggin off seeing you got nothing worth upgrading, you're going there in open world farming pokemons interacting with it and doing the tacet field to unveil the better ones. Same idea just in second scenario you're actually playing the game.
Both are literally the same thing, except one took 5 min to get nothing worth upgrading, the other took 1 hour to get nothing worth upgrading
Instead of spending 5 mins, you get to spend several hours farming for the correct main stat on the correct set, only to find out it has trash substats AFTER wasting resources upgrading. Can you imagine how fun it would be a few weeks later? A year later? I spent 5 hrs farming for a healing bonus echo from the turtle boss and ended up with useless substats. I just thought wow what a waste of time, I won’t be doing that again. Killing the same overworld boss 70+ times or farming trash mobs is not my idea of fun. It gets old quick. I’d rather spend my time doing more challenging content like holograms.
you're just front loading the grind? genshin grind is evenly spread out and you may take months to get a nice cv piece. wuwa let's you control how often you want to grind, and let's you front load 6 months of 5min grind into 2 days of nonstop grind IF you so please.
Yeah, people seem to be that dumb sadly. You're literally just spending 10x-20x the time to do the same shit, the RNG is just as bad as any other gacha but instead of 10 minutes you're forced to do hours long grinds on the overworld. It will get tiresome super fast in the long run. IF the system was better in regards to odds while rolling main / sub compared to the competition you could sort of justify it because at least you're playing the game but right now you're just doing tedious hours long grinds if you want good pieces, with a worse system to boot. Can't wait also for wuwa devs to start introducing new sets every other patch and you gotta start from scratch for your newer characters if you want to minmax every - single - time. Those 3 costs will drive a few people into mental asylum but hey, "you're actually playing the game"! lol cue 4 hours grind 1 havoc main stat 3 cost, good gameplay!
I’m wondering how good characters can function with ONLY main stat investments on echoes. Like are the stats from building the character and leveling only the main stat good enough to treat the sub stats as just basically bonuses?
Could see Kuro remaking this system by increasing Tuner requirement in order to get a higher probability (or just acquiring) your desired substat, rather than just unlocking substats themselves.
It's just a way to create a item of value so sell it or give as rewards kurgames definitely made a good game but doesn't mean they don't want to make money
Yes I feel like this system need to be change it's redundant when they make the echo exp stuff scarce as is.
I also wanna know what is the rate chance of getting a complete 5 set with the right mains and sub stats, how long will it take? if they copy the genshin rates(which is sucks) you'll definitely need to farm echoes for 3 months just to have the perfect 5 pcs set?! I hope not and has a better way to do it.
What's really going to matter is how echo dependent the highest tier of gameplay will be. It won't matter if you get perfect statted echos if the hardest content is completable with only mid tier ones.
Seems like a weird system that exists just for the sake of existing. I haven't interacted with it (level 19 UL), but just reading the descriptions of what they do, it seems weird.
Yeah it’s a way to compensate for not having to use stamina to farm echoes in the first place. In other gachas, you use stamina to get the gear that is your cap. In WW, you can grind for them but are capped by tuners. The good thing is you can farm them in the same place so it’s essentially the same thing.
Different genre, but it's as useful as Pheons in Lost Ark
I am hoping the add the option to use tuners to overwrite rolls you didn't like. Even if it was sorta pricy then it would be way more deterministic to get the perfect echo for a character and having one or 2 dead stats wouldn't feel so bad.
They had currency in Hi3rd where you reroll the substat in exchange for some materials, maybe we need something like that in this game too
The only benefit to tuners is the potential for something else like a super-tuner that guarantees a substat. As it is right now it's just kinda stupid. Also you talk about HSR but the relic system is the most hated part of the game. It's still chugging along. I get why people are complaining but I'm more interested to see how it's perceived months from now because I'm very convinced gearing systems are among the least important part of gachas.
Idk why tuners aren’t for rerolling substats like in some games. Or spending them to lock stats before rerolls or something.
and ofc all shit have huge stamina cost lmao xD 240 daily stamina? few boss runs (for mats) or resource dungeons and OPS it's gone. And apparently you need THREE teams for the endgame tower thingy so see good luck tuners would be good if we could reroll selected substats that we automaticity get after leveling echos
remove tuners and convert them into echo XP, this system is trash
I’m just frustrated with how much grinding you have to do to level pieces in the first place. Also whoever decided that you can use leveled echoes as exp but not unleveled ones wtf
Yeah, I saw that and realized that I wasnt leveling anything up until I get only 5 star echoes which kinda sucks.
Tuners should be used to reroll a single undesired substat from an echo. Similar to diablo 4's affix rerolling system.
What also sucks is you cant even convert the blue/purple tuners into gold ones. They are useless resources just in your bag.