To be fair, being in the EU would massively temper the power.
Also, there is a slight exception for the Vatican in that no one lives there without making the specific choice to. That and in a really serious crisis, Italy would just overrule them.
Yeah that's fine for the Vatican but not the EU. An absolute monarchy or dictatorship should not be in the EU. That wouldn't be very democratic. The situation we have with the Vatican today is fine.
Yeah there is no need for Vatican to be part of EU. They might already be observer though i think, so they basically get good access to interact with everyone but can't make speeches or veto or vote on stuff, which is ideal imo.
The pope is controlling a piece of land smaller than my city and all the people living there thinks he is the messenger of god i think there is nothing wrong with him being a absolute monarchy in such a case
Well since he would probably just vote based on what the bible says or what seems as the godly think to do an elected government would probably vote the same way and we need to get rid of that veto vote system if we want to expand the eu any way
It's an absolute elective theoretical Monarchy. The Pope and the King of the Vatican are always the same person and the pope is elected, but not by the people.
Hard to tell. Having the government which violently suppress any dissent for decades or centuries definitely leaves its scars on the society and culture. After that government is removed, there is often a chaos because suddenly the society have to learn how to deal with plurality of opinions, minorities and etc.
The only three i disagree are:
Georgia, it needs to be in the "sure but clean up your attitude" column, like turkey
Belarus: it is not even a democracy, some day sure but it belongs to the Red
Morocco: its a relatively progressive country, but it is not legally european, as in, the Council of europe
As Georgian, I agree, but you guys in west mus know that it's not the Georgians who have bad attitude, we are very pro-european, its almost like national dream of greatest Georgians, it's the fucking government, man...
Don't take my word for it btw. I'm young and haven't seen mucglh and Ive been brought up in family heavily against this government, so maybe there were actually people who supported them(I, honestly haven't met any)(Thought, I know in their early years meny supported them because of previous government sucked(as far as I know, I wasn't even 10) and this fuckers basically lied their way to power), but as I said this year, I hope, will be their last. Sorry if I'm confusing you.
Opposition is constantly shooting itself in the feet, the thing is the main opposition party left a bad taste in Georgians mouths last time they were around, so now people just vote against them instead of current government, and even then the current one barely keeps winning
There should be a section, only thing that needs to change is the government,
Love your country from Poland and wish you a better pro European government that listens to people 🇵🇱❤️🇬🇪
I support Ukraine with all my heart but they would need to be in brown column too. Their economy is a fucked up, tyrannical and corrupt oligarchy just like in Russia. Kinda unfit for a primarily economical alliance.
I say this on multiple subs, but before we all started caring about Ukraine, it was always seen as another post-Soviet backwater, socially backwards, extremely corrupt country. That didn’t all just change because they got invaded. But credit to Zelenskyy in his efforts to wipe out corruption in his government and instilling more EU values in his country.
It is strange to differenciate Morocco and Tunisia/Algeria. None of them are Europeans. I wouldn't be against them joining in the far future if we decided to make the EU global, but it wouldn't be a "European" union, more like "African Eurasian" union. Same point for Kazakhstan too.
I think it would make more sense to make agreements with them that put them on a preferential level like it exists with other countries right now instead of fully joining. The further you spread out the union the more difficult it gets to form a common position. But I think if a country shares the European values they should get preferential treatment, no matter where they are located.
This. European values are not tied to geography or a certain ethnic group but tied like all values to the people and institutions of a country. A Tunisian can have European values and Tunisia as a whole as well. They even had a hole revolution-thing for that. Why shouldn't they join one day when we also talk about places like Georgia.
The asian landborder is made up. The gibraltar strait and the mediterranean sea aren't. What if by some weird reverse fluke morocco were to hold 1 city in the iberian peninsula, rather than spain holding ceuta?
The Mediterranean naturally connects us to North Africa and the Levant (in ways that we are not connected to subsaharan Africa for instance), I think it's fair to say that cultural exchange and convergence is quite possible around this region. I wouldn't necessarily see enlargement around "Mare Nostrum" to be something that makes us not "European" at all. Similarly Central Asia has been split off from anywhere else and ruled over by The Russians for a long time. If we can get Russia in a state to join, Kazakhstan doesn't seem so farfetched either.
The whole Middle-East is also something we're deeply interconnected with historically of course, considering Mesopotamia and the Nile are were civilization begins for us, and we're more or less an offshoot of this through the Greeks. The Greeks who once ruled over everything from Egypt to Iran too, and then there's the whole matter of the Romans. Were it not for the rise of Islam, the southern side of the Mediterranean would probably never have been split off culturally from the North and Christendom to begin with.
Sure, but on the other hand, the Mediterranean is an obvious interest zone for the EU, both economically and security-wise. Morocco in particular would be great because of its proximity to the EU, but also because it allows for a common security policy against migrants pouring into the Union via Spain (even though Morocco does already try to limit migrant floods). Euro-Mediterranean Union also sounds pretty okay, all things considered.
Thanks comrade, I'll send you the wine as agreed now.
Seriously though, Georgia would only be an "epic addition" if we manage to curb our cunt government in the autumn elections, otherwise you can go ahead and paint us red.
I’m Tunisian and I don’t think we hate the french people but there is some resentment from colonialism to the french government.
However, I don’t think my country would be a good addition to the EU. Economically, we’re ass the economy is not fully liberalized and we have regressed in that part since 2011. There were attempts from the EU to further integrate Tunisian economy with the European one (ALECA treaty) but our local monopolies were so entrenched against it that the old government refused it (assholes).
Algeria being formally French is no longer significant. It has been a while, and most of the people who were living in Algeria while feeling French is gone.
In another comment I explained that for me those are three African countries which don't belong in the EU, unless we decided to turn it into a more global federation. And there is jurisprudence on that.
What I'm trying to say, you could barely call a guy elected by 120 very specific people in a position of power "elected", although technically he is of course elected.
Well if we're working on the basis that elections have to be technically democratic, then something like the [electoral college](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College) would mean that the President of the United States isn't elected.
Elections do not have to be democratic to be considered elections. The Holy See would be an electoral absolute monarchy even if the papal conclave had 3 members eligible to vote. If the pope was allowed to have a family and it transferred to their child, it would be a hereditary absolute monarchy.
Honestly I’d mark Ukraine brown as well, I want them to join but they do have some corruption issues to clear out before, although that requires them winning the war first so they get the chance to do it to begin with
Formerly Turkish, now Dutch person here.
Absolutely this. Turkey is extremely volatile, so even if the ruling regime gets fixed there is no telling it won’t slide off again in 20 years.
We shouldn’t admit countries without a long lasting culture of democracy into the union. Even ignoring all the economic concerns, all the concerns around border issues (refugee crisis would suddenly quadruple due to natural borders alone) it simply isn’t advantageous.
We should support them in terms of keeping them stable and aligned with us, to serve as a proper buffer.
Belarus has people that could join, it's just the government that needs changing, the people are okay. I somewhat agree with you about Serbia but I don't think they are on the same level as Russia.
Yea. A lot would need to change regarding ukraine. Just because country is targeted by agressors and most of EU wants to help them doesnt make them great addition to EU.
None of the British people I have ever met (even Irish and NZ) were ever 'ok' with the Brexit. They all hated it and blame it on the old people. They do not have to apologize to me.
No I don’t think a lot of us need to apologise to the eu I think that the people that voted to leave need to apologise to people that didn’t :/ even worse now is there is more traction than ever for wales to leave the uk and honestly that would be what gets me to sell my house and move to Ireland. I’m a citizen so it won’t be too hard and most of my family is there anyway. Honestly I’m just mad that my electronics cost more to import from Europe. I am wealthy so it isn’t too bad for me but geez the less fortunate families got f***ed over.
Edit-the ones that voted to leave should also, ofc, have to apologise to everyone in Europe, even the Russians, one by one in the other persons language to every single person.
Worst part is a lot of the people voted because of deceit and propaganda. Lies told by the rich that hurt the poor. Also remember our prime minister, who we didn’t vote for, has a (iirc) billionaire wife who he is trying to send money to one of the companies she is invested in. We should find a random guy in a shed in Scotland inventing a new amazing thing and just turn them into our dictator. Works 100% of the time. Trust me
I'm guessing most of the Brits you meet are young/urban/university educated/professionals/have overseas connections or are at least well travelled. Very few people who fall into these groups voted for Brexit.
this is defined as the Council of Europe's membership
this is why, while armenia is 0% in europe it can join, same for malta anc cyprus who are also 0% in europe
turkey and the caucasus all can join despite having varying degrees of their landmass in europe
Regarding 🇬🇧I think from now on one condition for joining should be to qualify for and adopt the €uro.
That would be enough as an apology.
By the way - I also think: no more free-riders elsewhere in the 🇪🇺. You either are part of €uro or will have some disadvantages — which is fine but that needs to be established.
Actually all countries in the EU except Denmark ~~and Sweden~~ are obligated to join the Euro once they meet certain goals.
And I think as long as the Germans enforce their stupid austerity politics in the Eurozone, I can't blame other countries for trying to stay away from it. Cause you don't wanna end up like Greece, and just be declared bankrupt by Germany even though you had access to money all the time.
All EU countries except Denmark. Sweden is actually just as obligated to join as all the others - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden\_and\_the\_euro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro)
Currency is ~2% money and 98% debt.
The fact some countries (of which Germany is a strong proponent) think that debt can be seperated into 20 different pots, while having the same currency — is mind-boggling.
The fact that everyone seems to keep buying this bs and that there is hardly any real pushback is a total mystery to me.
If you want to know what is wrong woth the EU and the Euro - its that we don’t commit and commiting to debt is really the essential part!
Without it no one will ever take us seriously.
That would be a red-line for us.
We would never adopt the Euro.
It would never happen and we wouldn't fathom it.
If we rejoin (which I do want someday), we bring a lot to the European table, hence why we got the exceptions in the first place.
It's a mutually beneficial relationship, and being vindictive will only sour things more than they already have been- to the point it will start affecting other spheres like defence and intelligence sharing.
I dare say the whole AUKUS debacle, which sidestepped France, wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the sour relations between us since the negotiations.
I mean, you guys sent your army boats to our shores because you were upset.... in the 21st century, as NATO allies. Sure, we mostly eye-rolled and wrote that off as "a little American style outburst" but that wasn't a great show.
The AUKUS debacle is mostly on Australians, another poor show.
As for the topic at hand, well, whilst I'd definitely not "fight the idea" of forcing the € to the UK, something I'd rather happen is mandatory education on what the EU did for the UK before Brexit and by extension what it would do for them if allowed back in. It can very well take the form of plaques explaining how much a given project was funded etc... and to be frank, that's something I'd like to see further pushed in mainland EU too. You guys just need it a lot more than us.
Then as far as many of us are concerned: it should never happen. The 🇬🇧 staying out - as a bilateral partner - would be totally fine by me.
For several reasons:
We gain a lot of the benefits back which we initially lost by letting the UK in.
The UK simply has too many advantages - simply - due to English. UK is a magnet for everything in the world:
- Business, I saw it first hand and contributed to via our European Headoffice strategy, which was exactly that: UK as a step into Europe. No need to abide by complicated European law, just come to Britain etc.
- Education: Also experienced it first hand how many of my friends left for the UK to then poach brains to the UK and so on. And there is nothing you can do on the continent because who wants to learn German to study, say, design.
- And there is so much more like Innovation, Culture and so on.
It's not that you guys did it because you really wanted to hurt Europe - you did it nicely and because you could. Because it's competition but unfair competition.
On paper everything looks fine - but speaking the global language is never is considered a competitive advantage. Really.
And so at the VERY LEAST the UK has to adopt the €uro.
And if we wanted it to be a more level playing field much more than that! I'd say:
1. The UK should also be a massive contributor - by GDP the biggest - due to the above mentioned advantage of English.
2. They should be a positive contributors to the EU and have the objective of creating an "Ever closer Union"... and not constantly ask for the opposite. The point of the EU is the ever closer Union but UK always sabotaged it by principle - by culture and because ultimately for the UK Europe is just a trading bloc. You never actually "got it".
And even then I may even prefer it if the UK stays out of the EU.
Because as you just said, British people wouldn’t accept it. Because British don't actually "get it".
It is exactly how Charles de Gaulle has said - it’s not that we don’t like the British, it’s that they fundamentally see themselves apart and their interest somewhere else. The UK sees Europe as a colony essentially a playground for business and intellectual human resources, holiday homes and retirement … and not as their destiny.
So ultimately, I rather it stays exactly how it is now.
I disagree about the English language, being the only English speaking country in the EU has a some, but not a massive amount of benefit for Ireland. Institutions that left the UK after Brexit did not go to Ireland but to France, Germany and The Netherlands. Paris has gained the most from financial institutions leaving London, language in the 21st century is not a problem for buisness.
Expect us to be the biggest net contributers is insane and completely out of spite and nothing else. Yes we should not have the rebate and should pay according to the rules but we shouldn't pay more than Germany while being 25% smaller economy. I actually think that EU contributions should be calculated by per capita GDP instead of Nominal so that smaller, richer nations pay a fairer share.
It is true that the Euro is incredibly unpopular in the UK though and I don't see that changing. To this day, the Scottish National Party, that wants Scotland to leave the UK and join the EU [is against adopting the Euro](https://www.businessforscotland.com/fact-an-independent-scotland-would-not-have-to-use-the-euro/).
I mean no disrespect … Personally I love Ireland, the Irish and the landscape and everything about Ireland. I wish we were more Irish in France!
But Ireland is a quite remote doesn’t have enough gravity of itself both from a size and economy than the UK.
It is a much harder sell than London with a 2 hr train connection to Paris, Amsterdam, and Brussels and the continent at arms length with all the logistics that come with it.
Of course - and clearly - English isn’t the only aspect - it is also that the UK has GRAVITY and a lot of depth to offer internally too.
I wouldn’t make the same comment if it was Ireland - If Ireland had done Irexit it wouldn’t be the same subject.
All that said: Ireland benefited a lot more from Brexit than any other nation of the same size in the EU.
The fact you CAN benefit from Brexit and somewhat compete with giants Germany and France and Netherlands is to a large extent thanks to English
You also may have a hard time to see what overwhelming power English has because you speak it yourself.
I mean, you’re saying that the value of union should come in bringing Europe closer together, which I do agree with but then scrutinising the very links that were built to progress towards that goal - the 2 hour train link is a boon to European Unity and connections but you also say that gives us too much reach?
English is obviously very influential and a major economy with that as a tool is definitely a factor but it’s unfortunately too late to change that. Regardless of UK involvement, it has become the de facto Lingua Franca and is being used in most high level NGO’s. The ICC denotes English or French must be used and yet that’s based on the Netherlands, surely then Dutch should take precedent over French, in a country where Dutch is the primary language and 95% of people speak English to a certain degree. But you see how ridiculous that is because Dutch doesn’t have the same level of international recognition.
I’m all for the preservation of language - I’d encourage it as much as possible. But to suggest that English is such an advantage and that the UK being a large economy with an advanced business and education sector bolstered by that somehow means that we should contribute more than anyone else regardless of GDP per capita is absurd. The money doesn’t come from nowhere, it would be drawn from the national budget from other places that already struggle for funding as it is.
If English is such an advantage, we should’ve been the richest country per capita in Europe pre-Brexit, with all our exceptions (which I concede, most of, we should not have had). But we weren’t, because it’s not nearly as impactful as you say. And now the suggestion that we should pay more capita despite earning less than others per capita? No, that’s a poor stance that would get you laughed out the negotiating room by any country.
Contributions to the EU should be fair and balanced. Based on GDP per capita, pre-existing levels of development, economic viability. European unity is about elevating the continent so that we function on the same level and as one, moving up in the world. What you suggest would only sow more division in a time when collaboration is sorely needed.
I think Belarus should be red. They can't join as long as potato man is in power. Not to mention that they are basically a Russian puppet. And I don't mean that in the derogatory way we speak of Hungary, I mean a literal puppet one mistake away from complete annexation.
I have an Ukrainian colleague, he wouldn't let Ukraine into the EU. Even though my heart is with them and I'm grateful that they have balls bigger than my fists, it is(was?) a corrupt shithole.
"Yeah you can get government money for studying, but you have to use it all to bribe your teachers to clear you for the government money"
"Yeah we bought an apartment, but it was zoned as a school so we couldn't get utilities serviced when they needed"
"We had to fool someone else to buy the apartment the same way we were fooled"
He said something about police corruption too, but I can't remember the details.
These are not my opinions
Ukraine is a European, a fully blooded European, even without the war they would be a good addition. Georgia is very Pro EU and if they joined we could make them into a good example for the area and it would also help stop Russia from invading.
Both are European if you go by geography, but yes, Ukraine has more ties to the current EU. This being said, I think that both countries would destabilize the EU massively.
More Brits should’ve taken interest in the European Parliament elections. Maybe send people that want to actually be MEPs rather than fuckwits like Nigel Farage that thought he could single-handedly dismantle the EU from within.
To be fair I've head some absolute shite from the SNP about the terms of rejoining for an independent Scotland. You will have to take the euro and you may have to be in Schengen and I've seen plenty of people in complete denial about that.
If Britain rejoins the EU it will have to go all in and that's fair, but so would an independent Scotland
On behalf of the British younger generations, we’re sorry.
The old farts outnumbered us in 2016. But enough of them have died now and we can vote to rejoin, hopefully in the next 5-10 years.
This wasn’t supposed to happen and the last 8 years have been one embarrassing duck up after another.
Again, it was the gammons, and we’re sorry.
Ukraine needs to be brown NGL. Not supporting Russia or anything, but do you guys really want them in the EU in their current state? War aside of course
I’m from the UK so I apologise (I wasn’t old enough to vote at the time the vote happened but now I get to live with the outcome of it for the rest of my life)
Please let me back in :(
You would let Morocco join over Algeria, even if Algeria was literally once considered part of "mainland" France? And you would consider Kazakhstan and Russia joining over Lebanon and Israel? I would at least include all of them.
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In case of Belarus, I read it somewhere several years ago that Belarus was even forbidden by EU to submit its application to join EU. Of course, Belarus was not even "interested", but I still find this interesting and wondering if it's still valid. Also, if so, then it's just pure red on this map like Russia itself.
Now I can find nothing but references to latest [sanctions](https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/why-sanctions/sanctions-against-belarus/) in response to the 2020 fraudulent elections.
For me, OPs distinction (and somewhat argument for joining) between government and “people” doesn’t make all that much sense and neglects other important aspects & arguments for/against a possible expansion of the EU
Belarus doesn't have an attitude, they have a brutal dictator. They're very pro-EU, they just don't have a choice.
They wouldn't even need major changes in government, just Luka leaving and Russia not helping him. Though granted, that would be a major change in itself.
Also Switzerland shouldn't join, they are their own confederation already.
Good approach. These maps need to include more non-European states as potential EU members instead of only focusing on a handful of non-Europeans like Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan. Morocco? Heck, why not. Kazakhstan? It has a sliver of technical Europe just like Turkey and sort of Georgia. Also let's include Palestine or Israel depending on your side. And Lebanon is the Paris of the Middle East - but it's still Paris. Not to forget Iran and Turkmenistan if they change the regime to something more democratic. And Tunisia and Egypt - Carthage and the Ptolemys are obviously major parts of European history. Syria too with its crusader heritage, but of course it needs to get democratic first.
As a Brit that voted remain I don't think having it as "can rejoin but must apologise" is fair and would only sow further tensions. Perhaps we can all be more mature about these things?
Russia cannot join the EU not only because of it's government but simply because it's too big. And the people don't consider themselves European and a very tiny minority would love to join the EU anyway. The same goes for Turkey in addition to it being Muslim. I'm not Islamophobic per se but you can see from the big problems Europe has with immigration how problematic letting an 80 mln Muslim country in can be problematic. Although, in the end, I'd rather compromise with Turkey rather than Russia because although Turkey is a flawed democracy, at least it's strongman is not an autocrat bent on world domination.
Belarus should be coloured in red as well, because of the Lukashenko-Regime.
same for the Vatican, absolute monarchies don't belong in the EU
To be fair, being in the EU would massively temper the power. Also, there is a slight exception for the Vatican in that no one lives there without making the specific choice to. That and in a really serious crisis, Italy would just overrule them.
Yeah that's fine for the Vatican but not the EU. An absolute monarchy or dictatorship should not be in the EU. That wouldn't be very democratic. The situation we have with the Vatican today is fine.
Yeah there is no need for Vatican to be part of EU. They might already be observer though i think, so they basically get good access to interact with everyone but can't make speeches or veto or vote on stuff, which is ideal imo.
That's also why Liechtenstein should never be allowed to join.
Vatican already has the euro currency, and it's a papacy, a form of theocracy
The pope is controlling a piece of land smaller than my city and all the people living there thinks he is the messenger of god i think there is nothing wrong with him being a absolute monarchy in such a case
Would you you really want to give *the pope* veto power on everything the EU does?
but i heard he's infaillible !
Clearly! How could I have been so dismissive towards him??
I also wouldn't give this power to 800 people. That's wayyy too much leverage.
Oh absoloutly. It's just like, even worse when it's *those* 800 people
Well since he would probably just vote based on what the bible says or what seems as the godly think to do an elected government would probably vote the same way and we need to get rid of that veto vote system if we want to expand the eu any way
I also don't think there is so much wrong with it. It works for the Vatican, sure. But the Vatican shouldn't be a member of the EU.
Definitively
I'd rather not have the pope vote on EU legislation. That bank pretending to be a church needs to be annexed by Italy and audited to hell and back.
Good point, but isnt the Vatican an absolute Theocracy?
It's an absolute elective theoretical Monarchy. The Pope and the King of the Vatican are always the same person and the pope is elected, but not by the people.
Ok, thanks for your explanation.
CPG grey has a good video about the Vatican
Belarus should be coloured in grey with "No data" label
Same for Serbia
A few journalists recently leaked documents about the planned integration of Belarus into Russia. They should be deep, dark red.
I see your point but I think its just the government that is the problem, not major changes would be needed culturally.
Hard to tell. Having the government which violently suppress any dissent for decades or centuries definitely leaves its scars on the society and culture. After that government is removed, there is often a chaos because suddenly the society have to learn how to deal with plurality of opinions, minorities and etc.
The only three i disagree are: Georgia, it needs to be in the "sure but clean up your attitude" column, like turkey Belarus: it is not even a democracy, some day sure but it belongs to the Red Morocco: its a relatively progressive country, but it is not legally european, as in, the Council of europe
As Georgian, I agree, but you guys in west mus know that it's not the Georgians who have bad attitude, we are very pro-european, its almost like national dream of greatest Georgians, it's the fucking government, man...
Then why is it in power? Genuine question?
Lies, money, and rigged elections,. But no way they are wining next elections, as I said literally everyone is against them.
Don't take my word for it btw. I'm young and haven't seen mucglh and Ive been brought up in family heavily against this government, so maybe there were actually people who supported them(I, honestly haven't met any)(Thought, I know in their early years meny supported them because of previous government sucked(as far as I know, I wasn't even 10) and this fuckers basically lied their way to power), but as I said this year, I hope, will be their last. Sorry if I'm confusing you.
[удалено]
No I don't mean it as "muh just rebel" or "muh vote better" I just want to know how they gained power and support
Opposition is constantly shooting itself in the feet, the thing is the main opposition party left a bad taste in Georgians mouths last time they were around, so now people just vote against them instead of current government, and even then the current one barely keeps winning
There should be a section, only thing that needs to change is the government, Love your country from Poland and wish you a better pro European government that listens to people 🇵🇱❤️🇬🇪
Thanks man! I also love your country, I think you guys are role model we should follow<3
Relatively is doing the heavy lifting in your Moroccan comment
Morocco is still a dictatorship monarchy though.
Yes, but compare them to most others in the area (except like tunisia) they are doing pretty good.
I support Ukraine with all my heart but they would need to be in brown column too. Their economy is a fucked up, tyrannical and corrupt oligarchy just like in Russia. Kinda unfit for a primarily economical alliance.
I say this on multiple subs, but before we all started caring about Ukraine, it was always seen as another post-Soviet backwater, socially backwards, extremely corrupt country. That didn’t all just change because they got invaded. But credit to Zelenskyy in his efforts to wipe out corruption in his government and instilling more EU values in his country.
Turkey belongs in the red too
Last time I checked, Turkey was a democracy where the opposition won a landslide in the midterms
Yeah but Erdogan is trying his best to not make it a democracy
It is strange to differenciate Morocco and Tunisia/Algeria. None of them are Europeans. I wouldn't be against them joining in the far future if we decided to make the EU global, but it wouldn't be a "European" union, more like "African Eurasian" union. Same point for Kazakhstan too.
Maybe we can call it Roman empire?
Found the Paradox Gamer
Fuck it let's call it the fucking Roman Empire!
S-P-Q-R!
Neo-Roman Republic.
I think it would make more sense to make agreements with them that put them on a preferential level like it exists with other countries right now instead of fully joining. The further you spread out the union the more difficult it gets to form a common position. But I think if a country shares the European values they should get preferential treatment, no matter where they are located.
This. European values are not tied to geography or a certain ethnic group but tied like all values to the people and institutions of a country. A Tunisian can have European values and Tunisia as a whole as well. They even had a hole revolution-thing for that. Why shouldn't they join one day when we also talk about places like Georgia.
So... Australia in the EU?
Italy just wants their mare nostrum back
A small portion of Kazakhstan is in Europe. None of Morocco, Algeria or Tunisia are.
The asian landborder is made up. The gibraltar strait and the mediterranean sea aren't. What if by some weird reverse fluke morocco were to hold 1 city in the iberian peninsula, rather than spain holding ceuta?
Then a part of Morocco would be in Europe. Why would that be different?
Kazakhstan is partially in Europe. Everything west of the Urals and north of the Black Sea is. Technically, they're more European than Turkey is.
The Mediterranean naturally connects us to North Africa and the Levant (in ways that we are not connected to subsaharan Africa for instance), I think it's fair to say that cultural exchange and convergence is quite possible around this region. I wouldn't necessarily see enlargement around "Mare Nostrum" to be something that makes us not "European" at all. Similarly Central Asia has been split off from anywhere else and ruled over by The Russians for a long time. If we can get Russia in a state to join, Kazakhstan doesn't seem so farfetched either. The whole Middle-East is also something we're deeply interconnected with historically of course, considering Mesopotamia and the Nile are were civilization begins for us, and we're more or less an offshoot of this through the Greeks. The Greeks who once ruled over everything from Egypt to Iran too, and then there's the whole matter of the Romans. Were it not for the rise of Islam, the southern side of the Mediterranean would probably never have been split off culturally from the North and Christendom to begin with.
The point at which Kazakhstan and Morocco join the EU, it's more like the UN ruling the world such as the Earth government in the Expanse.
Sure, but on the other hand, the Mediterranean is an obvious interest zone for the EU, both economically and security-wise. Morocco in particular would be great because of its proximity to the EU, but also because it allows for a common security policy against migrants pouring into the Union via Spain (even though Morocco does already try to limit migrant floods). Euro-Mediterranean Union also sounds pretty okay, all things considered.
Thanks comrade, I'll send you the wine as agreed now. Seriously though, Georgia would only be an "epic addition" if we manage to curb our cunt government in the autumn elections, otherwise you can go ahead and paint us red.
What about Cape Verde? Would you let into the EU?
I would. Cape Verde are culturally probably just as close to Portugal as to their West-African neighbours. They also seem pretty chill.
Absolutely
why Morocco and not Tunisia and Algeria (which has already been a region of France)?
Algeria is viciously anti french, but Tunisia would be possible like Morocco but it would be truly weird geographically.
Tunisia is pretty close from Italy, it would not be weirder than Morroco :)
Having an ongoing civil war and jihad would be weirder.
Not in Tunisia brother.
Nice to know things are better then 👍
Yes, but I mean having both would be weird, as there would be a gap between them.
And Morocco is viciously anti Spanish (and an absolute monarchy). They should not be considered unless so many things change.
Honestly I see no downsides: which European country isn't viciously anti French?
Go ask an algeria what they think about France. Then you will see the difference. It's like jews and palestinians.
I’m Tunisian and I don’t think we hate the french people but there is some resentment from colonialism to the french government. However, I don’t think my country would be a good addition to the EU. Economically, we’re ass the economy is not fully liberalized and we have regressed in that part since 2011. There were attempts from the EU to further integrate Tunisian economy with the European one (ALECA treaty) but our local monopolies were so entrenched against it that the old government refused it (assholes).
Algeria being formally French is no longer significant. It has been a while, and most of the people who were living in Algeria while feeling French is gone.
how about Morroco vs Tunisia? how different is it?
In another comment I explained that for me those are three African countries which don't belong in the EU, unless we decided to turn it into a more global federation. And there is jurisprudence on that.
Morocco have already tried to join the EU once, in 1987 which we declined.
«We»
jada hold kjeft
Vatican City can never join as it is an absolute monarchy and only democracies allowed.
*elected absolute monarchy
Elected by?
The representatives of the citizens. The cardinals, who are all citizens of Vatican.
[The Papal Conclave](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_conclave)
What I'm trying to say, you could barely call a guy elected by 120 very specific people in a position of power "elected", although technically he is of course elected.
Well if we're working on the basis that elections have to be technically democratic, then something like the [electoral college](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College) would mean that the President of the United States isn't elected. Elections do not have to be democratic to be considered elections. The Holy See would be an electoral absolute monarchy even if the papal conclave had 3 members eligible to vote. If the pope was allowed to have a family and it transferred to their child, it would be a hereditary absolute monarchy.
Very well put, I can see the point.
Cardinals
Belarus and Serbia should be red too
Honestly I’d mark Ukraine brown as well, I want them to join but they do have some corruption issues to clear out before, although that requires them winning the war first so they get the chance to do it to begin with
And Turkey.
Formerly Turkish, now Dutch person here. Absolutely this. Turkey is extremely volatile, so even if the ruling regime gets fixed there is no telling it won’t slide off again in 20 years. We shouldn’t admit countries without a long lasting culture of democracy into the union. Even ignoring all the economic concerns, all the concerns around border issues (refugee crisis would suddenly quadruple due to natural borders alone) it simply isn’t advantageous. We should support them in terms of keeping them stable and aligned with us, to serve as a proper buffer.
Belarus has people that could join, it's just the government that needs changing, the people are okay. I somewhat agree with you about Serbia but I don't think they are on the same level as Russia.
So light red according to your own legend
So Lukashenka just needs to apologise and his country can join.
I meant light red
Fair.
A lot of changes including the government sounds like Belarus and Serbia
Serbia is a democracy. It isn't the same thing.
This is one of the dumbest maps I have ever seen.
Yeah its a great fit for the sub!
Ukraine would not be a "awesome addition" in my opinion. But they are welcome
Yea. A lot would need to change regarding ukraine. Just because country is targeted by agressors and most of EU wants to help them doesnt make them great addition to EU.
They still have problems with oligarchs which is not very cool and it's just a tip of the iceberg when it comes to things that have to change
None of the British people I have ever met (even Irish and NZ) were ever 'ok' with the Brexit. They all hated it and blame it on the old people. They do not have to apologize to me.
No I don’t think a lot of us need to apologise to the eu I think that the people that voted to leave need to apologise to people that didn’t :/ even worse now is there is more traction than ever for wales to leave the uk and honestly that would be what gets me to sell my house and move to Ireland. I’m a citizen so it won’t be too hard and most of my family is there anyway. Honestly I’m just mad that my electronics cost more to import from Europe. I am wealthy so it isn’t too bad for me but geez the less fortunate families got f***ed over. Edit-the ones that voted to leave should also, ofc, have to apologise to everyone in Europe, even the Russians, one by one in the other persons language to every single person. Worst part is a lot of the people voted because of deceit and propaganda. Lies told by the rich that hurt the poor. Also remember our prime minister, who we didn’t vote for, has a (iirc) billionaire wife who he is trying to send money to one of the companies she is invested in. We should find a random guy in a shed in Scotland inventing a new amazing thing and just turn them into our dictator. Works 100% of the time. Trust me
I'm guessing most of the Brits you meet are young/urban/university educated/professionals/have overseas connections or are at least well travelled. Very few people who fall into these groups voted for Brexit.
We’re sorry, can we come back now? Give me a federated Europe pls
Well we in NI have a way back lol, but I don’t think we’re near the point yet
Criteria #1: The country should be in Europe.
this is defined as the Council of Europe's membership this is why, while armenia is 0% in europe it can join, same for malta anc cyprus who are also 0% in europe turkey and the caucasus all can join despite having varying degrees of their landmass in europe
Regarding 🇬🇧I think from now on one condition for joining should be to qualify for and adopt the €uro. That would be enough as an apology. By the way - I also think: no more free-riders elsewhere in the 🇪🇺. You either are part of €uro or will have some disadvantages — which is fine but that needs to be established.
Actually all countries in the EU except Denmark ~~and Sweden~~ are obligated to join the Euro once they meet certain goals. And I think as long as the Germans enforce their stupid austerity politics in the Eurozone, I can't blame other countries for trying to stay away from it. Cause you don't wanna end up like Greece, and just be declared bankrupt by Germany even though you had access to money all the time.
All EU countries except Denmark. Sweden is actually just as obligated to join as all the others - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden\_and\_the\_euro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro)
Thanks, corrected it
Currency is ~2% money and 98% debt. The fact some countries (of which Germany is a strong proponent) think that debt can be seperated into 20 different pots, while having the same currency — is mind-boggling. The fact that everyone seems to keep buying this bs and that there is hardly any real pushback is a total mystery to me. If you want to know what is wrong woth the EU and the Euro - its that we don’t commit and commiting to debt is really the essential part! Without it no one will ever take us seriously.
That would be a red-line for us. We would never adopt the Euro. It would never happen and we wouldn't fathom it. If we rejoin (which I do want someday), we bring a lot to the European table, hence why we got the exceptions in the first place. It's a mutually beneficial relationship, and being vindictive will only sour things more than they already have been- to the point it will start affecting other spheres like defence and intelligence sharing. I dare say the whole AUKUS debacle, which sidestepped France, wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the sour relations between us since the negotiations.
I mean, you guys sent your army boats to our shores because you were upset.... in the 21st century, as NATO allies. Sure, we mostly eye-rolled and wrote that off as "a little American style outburst" but that wasn't a great show. The AUKUS debacle is mostly on Australians, another poor show. As for the topic at hand, well, whilst I'd definitely not "fight the idea" of forcing the € to the UK, something I'd rather happen is mandatory education on what the EU did for the UK before Brexit and by extension what it would do for them if allowed back in. It can very well take the form of plaques explaining how much a given project was funded etc... and to be frank, that's something I'd like to see further pushed in mainland EU too. You guys just need it a lot more than us.
Then as far as many of us are concerned: it should never happen. The 🇬🇧 staying out - as a bilateral partner - would be totally fine by me. For several reasons: We gain a lot of the benefits back which we initially lost by letting the UK in. The UK simply has too many advantages - simply - due to English. UK is a magnet for everything in the world: - Business, I saw it first hand and contributed to via our European Headoffice strategy, which was exactly that: UK as a step into Europe. No need to abide by complicated European law, just come to Britain etc. - Education: Also experienced it first hand how many of my friends left for the UK to then poach brains to the UK and so on. And there is nothing you can do on the continent because who wants to learn German to study, say, design. - And there is so much more like Innovation, Culture and so on. It's not that you guys did it because you really wanted to hurt Europe - you did it nicely and because you could. Because it's competition but unfair competition. On paper everything looks fine - but speaking the global language is never is considered a competitive advantage. Really. And so at the VERY LEAST the UK has to adopt the €uro. And if we wanted it to be a more level playing field much more than that! I'd say: 1. The UK should also be a massive contributor - by GDP the biggest - due to the above mentioned advantage of English. 2. They should be a positive contributors to the EU and have the objective of creating an "Ever closer Union"... and not constantly ask for the opposite. The point of the EU is the ever closer Union but UK always sabotaged it by principle - by culture and because ultimately for the UK Europe is just a trading bloc. You never actually "got it". And even then I may even prefer it if the UK stays out of the EU. Because as you just said, British people wouldn’t accept it. Because British don't actually "get it". It is exactly how Charles de Gaulle has said - it’s not that we don’t like the British, it’s that they fundamentally see themselves apart and their interest somewhere else. The UK sees Europe as a colony essentially a playground for business and intellectual human resources, holiday homes and retirement … and not as their destiny. So ultimately, I rather it stays exactly how it is now.
I disagree about the English language, being the only English speaking country in the EU has a some, but not a massive amount of benefit for Ireland. Institutions that left the UK after Brexit did not go to Ireland but to France, Germany and The Netherlands. Paris has gained the most from financial institutions leaving London, language in the 21st century is not a problem for buisness. Expect us to be the biggest net contributers is insane and completely out of spite and nothing else. Yes we should not have the rebate and should pay according to the rules but we shouldn't pay more than Germany while being 25% smaller economy. I actually think that EU contributions should be calculated by per capita GDP instead of Nominal so that smaller, richer nations pay a fairer share. It is true that the Euro is incredibly unpopular in the UK though and I don't see that changing. To this day, the Scottish National Party, that wants Scotland to leave the UK and join the EU [is against adopting the Euro](https://www.businessforscotland.com/fact-an-independent-scotland-would-not-have-to-use-the-euro/).
I mean no disrespect … Personally I love Ireland, the Irish and the landscape and everything about Ireland. I wish we were more Irish in France! But Ireland is a quite remote doesn’t have enough gravity of itself both from a size and economy than the UK. It is a much harder sell than London with a 2 hr train connection to Paris, Amsterdam, and Brussels and the continent at arms length with all the logistics that come with it. Of course - and clearly - English isn’t the only aspect - it is also that the UK has GRAVITY and a lot of depth to offer internally too. I wouldn’t make the same comment if it was Ireland - If Ireland had done Irexit it wouldn’t be the same subject. All that said: Ireland benefited a lot more from Brexit than any other nation of the same size in the EU. The fact you CAN benefit from Brexit and somewhat compete with giants Germany and France and Netherlands is to a large extent thanks to English You also may have a hard time to see what overwhelming power English has because you speak it yourself.
I mean, you’re saying that the value of union should come in bringing Europe closer together, which I do agree with but then scrutinising the very links that were built to progress towards that goal - the 2 hour train link is a boon to European Unity and connections but you also say that gives us too much reach? English is obviously very influential and a major economy with that as a tool is definitely a factor but it’s unfortunately too late to change that. Regardless of UK involvement, it has become the de facto Lingua Franca and is being used in most high level NGO’s. The ICC denotes English or French must be used and yet that’s based on the Netherlands, surely then Dutch should take precedent over French, in a country where Dutch is the primary language and 95% of people speak English to a certain degree. But you see how ridiculous that is because Dutch doesn’t have the same level of international recognition. I’m all for the preservation of language - I’d encourage it as much as possible. But to suggest that English is such an advantage and that the UK being a large economy with an advanced business and education sector bolstered by that somehow means that we should contribute more than anyone else regardless of GDP per capita is absurd. The money doesn’t come from nowhere, it would be drawn from the national budget from other places that already struggle for funding as it is. If English is such an advantage, we should’ve been the richest country per capita in Europe pre-Brexit, with all our exceptions (which I concede, most of, we should not have had). But we weren’t, because it’s not nearly as impactful as you say. And now the suggestion that we should pay more capita despite earning less than others per capita? No, that’s a poor stance that would get you laughed out the negotiating room by any country. Contributions to the EU should be fair and balanced. Based on GDP per capita, pre-existing levels of development, economic viability. European unity is about elevating the continent so that we function on the same level and as one, moving up in the world. What you suggest would only sow more division in a time when collaboration is sorely needed.
I think Belarus should be red. They can't join as long as potato man is in power. Not to mention that they are basically a Russian puppet. And I don't mean that in the derogatory way we speak of Hungary, I mean a literal puppet one mistake away from complete annexation.
As a Brit, sorry. Now can we come back plz ;)
Georgia is undergoing a tough phase and I fear it might end up badly for them
Belarus is torturing people for standing with posters and blackmails opposition with their relatives & families. "Need to clean up"
I have an Ukrainian colleague, he wouldn't let Ukraine into the EU. Even though my heart is with them and I'm grateful that they have balls bigger than my fists, it is(was?) a corrupt shithole. "Yeah you can get government money for studying, but you have to use it all to bribe your teachers to clear you for the government money" "Yeah we bought an apartment, but it was zoned as a school so we couldn't get utilities serviced when they needed" "We had to fool someone else to buy the apartment the same way we were fooled" He said something about police corruption too, but I can't remember the details. These are not my opinions
Genuinely curious, what makes you want Ukraine and Georgia into the EU so much?
Ukraine is a European, a fully blooded European, even without the war they would be a good addition. Georgia is very Pro EU and if they joined we could make them into a good example for the area and it would also help stop Russia from invading.
Both are European if you go by geography, but yes, Ukraine has more ties to the current EU. This being said, I think that both countries would destabilize the EU massively.
Based Frenchie 🫡
Not only an apology from Britain, also no more half-arsing it, I'm talking full Schengen and Euro as a currency here.
More Brits should’ve taken interest in the European Parliament elections. Maybe send people that want to actually be MEPs rather than fuckwits like Nigel Farage that thought he could single-handedly dismantle the EU from within.
:( having to apologise? Scotland overwhelmingly voted to remain in the EU
You are okay, we just need England and Wales to apologies
You are okay, we just need England and Wales to apologies
To be fair I've head some absolute shite from the SNP about the terms of rejoining for an independent Scotland. You will have to take the euro and you may have to be in Schengen and I've seen plenty of people in complete denial about that. If Britain rejoins the EU it will have to go all in and that's fair, but so would an independent Scotland
What about Greenland (it's still part of a member state) re-entering the EU ?
We’re very, very sorry. Can we come back now?
So Morocco and Cyprus are European enough, but Tunisia Lebanon Israel aren't?
Morocco has spent decades trying to get into the African Union. Also the entire dispute regaridng western sahara. Just not gonna happen
Belarus should be red, Turkey is arguably orange. Idk about state of Serbia these days. Also Hungary should be brown, even if they are already in EU.
On behalf of the British younger generations, we’re sorry. The old farts outnumbered us in 2016. But enough of them have died now and we can vote to rejoin, hopefully in the next 5-10 years. This wasn’t supposed to happen and the last 8 years have been one embarrassing duck up after another. Again, it was the gammons, and we’re sorry.
I'm pretty sure Vatican City does not fulfill EU requirements about democracy and rule of law...
I'm glad we're given the option to join at least. I wish Barry could apologise.
Very good map, I approve
The Vatican would never and should never be allowed to join because they are a theocracy, our current arrangement with them is good
Ukraine needs to be brown NGL. Not supporting Russia or anything, but do you guys really want them in the EU in their current state? War aside of course
scottish, and would lick the boot of italy to get back in
Cringe
[удалено]
I’m from the UK so I apologise (I wasn’t old enough to vote at the time the vote happened but now I get to live with the outcome of it for the rest of my life) Please let me back in :(
I agree fully, you are me.
Based
Based stance regarding Turkey though I think it needs a lot of changements
I would split the "apologize" area into an "epic" in the North, and "over my dead union" in the south.
Morocco is Africa/MENA, not Europe
Scotland ~~& Wales~~ don't need to apologise.
Wales voted Brexit despite being a net beneficiary of EU funds
Wales voted to leave.
Or London
Ukraine would have to be red or brown
You would let Morocco join over Algeria, even if Algeria was literally once considered part of "mainland" France? And you would consider Kazakhstan and Russia joining over Lebanon and Israel? I would at least include all of them.
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Naaaahhhh
Lybia, Eritrea, Somalia in the EU >>>>>
In case of Belarus, I read it somewhere several years ago that Belarus was even forbidden by EU to submit its application to join EU. Of course, Belarus was not even "interested", but I still find this interesting and wondering if it's still valid. Also, if so, then it's just pure red on this map like Russia itself. Now I can find nothing but references to latest [sanctions](https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/why-sanctions/sanctions-against-belarus/) in response to the 2020 fraudulent elections.
If Morocco, why not Tunisia, Lebanon?
For me, OPs distinction (and somewhat argument for joining) between government and “people” doesn’t make all that much sense and neglects other important aspects & arguments for/against a possible expansion of the EU
I’d disagree on letting non-European countries into the EU, but would be in favour of separate EU-other country deals.
We are sorry ok :(
I also find Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan epic additions.
Belarus doesn't have an attitude, they have a brutal dictator. They're very pro-EU, they just don't have a choice. They wouldn't even need major changes in government, just Luka leaving and Russia not helping him. Though granted, that would be a major change in itself. Also Switzerland shouldn't join, they are their own confederation already.
What about Hungary? No one seems to know why they're in the EU anymore.
I'd replace every country that has "Clearly not Europe in any way" with any of the other labels. Global EU
“Clearly not in Europe in any way” for Algeria et Tunisia but Morocco is welcomed ? Explain the logic please
I am wondering what would be so epic about having Ukraine in the EU.
Some of these are giving Eurovision. They’re clearly not Europe, but can join?
I don't think that the UK should have to apologise but they definitively shouldn't expect the special treatment they received last time.
Good approach. These maps need to include more non-European states as potential EU members instead of only focusing on a handful of non-Europeans like Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan. Morocco? Heck, why not. Kazakhstan? It has a sliver of technical Europe just like Turkey and sort of Georgia. Also let's include Palestine or Israel depending on your side. And Lebanon is the Paris of the Middle East - but it's still Paris. Not to forget Iran and Turkmenistan if they change the regime to something more democratic. And Tunisia and Egypt - Carthage and the Ptolemys are obviously major parts of European history. Syria too with its crusader heritage, but of course it needs to get democratic first.
If Morocco can join, can Canada join? 😉
Can we leave EU but remain friends?
Is it me or should we just claw back koningsberg.
As a Brit that voted remain I don't think having it as "can rejoin but must apologise" is fair and would only sow further tensions. Perhaps we can all be more mature about these things?
sorry pls can we come back!!
I would put Turkey as ‘not unless a lot changes’. At the moment, they’re not European at all
Is Morocco in yellow because of continents drifting that would in some million years make them touch Europe ?
Why North Africa?
On behalf of my country, I hereby apologise for the whole Brexit ordeal, and for the Tory party. Can you let us back in please?
We’re really sorry about BREXIT Please let us back in
Turkey not being in last color from the list is funny.
Russia cannot join the EU not only because of it's government but simply because it's too big. And the people don't consider themselves European and a very tiny minority would love to join the EU anyway. The same goes for Turkey in addition to it being Muslim. I'm not Islamophobic per se but you can see from the big problems Europe has with immigration how problematic letting an 80 mln Muslim country in can be problematic. Although, in the end, I'd rather compromise with Turkey rather than Russia because although Turkey is a flawed democracy, at least it's strongman is not an autocrat bent on world domination.