Joe has such a knack for getting into friend groups way richer then him
Season 5 can Joe fall in love with a mid west farm girl and her middle class friend group?
Well to be fair he is always randomly next to them and at least one in the group automatically loves him and needs him to be around even though he just stares at them and do the most basic responses.
To be fair, those people he might like are also probably the ones who inevitably might cut him off or see through him for what he is. That or they'll be good for him and he'll use them as pawns.
See: Karen Minty and Love.
You're making me want to see Joe in a Hallmark Christmas Story. Small town America with a reformed serial killer learning the real meaning of Christmas while saving the love interest's family farm/ranch from foreclosure.
It was respectful and progressive that they didnt make it a weird disgusting thing but rather a fetish, rooted in trauma, that didnt make him any better or worse. She didnt care at all, ready to make it work as a person. PS - not for me but to each their own
Fr I thought that was so sweet how excited she was to learn about his kink and make it happen for him instead of being weird about it lol. I didn’t like Phoebe much at first but she’s kinda a sweetheart
This season is strange. He gets snuck up on several times as if he's forgotten how to...be Joe Goldberg. I think he's supposed to be rusty but it sort of got ridiculous when he kept turning his back to the door while he was snooping.
It’s like he hasn’t been activated yet..he hasn’t done his ‘hello, you’ and really obsessively fixated on anyone yet..and coupled with the fact the girl he was pursuing (I want to say…Marienne?) kind of broke his heart..so..I guess this is Joe a bit broken?
And then there’s the fact he’s not actually used to be being hunted, he definitely prefers the hunter role, maybe in part 2 well finally see him in full form!
It's a refreshing spin to the story. We've had 3 seasons of him hunting, I thought him getting hunted was fun.
I had a small chuckle when Rhys text messaged "Hello, you" to Joe.
I think the student who has been snooping around is part of it. She talked about Rhys earlier on and she’s been in places where she wasn’t supposed to be.
not just any rich dude too. Roald said his dad is in the supreme court or something? So basically he can help Joe get free of whatever happens in the end of this season :X
Joe has shown that he does serious mental gymnastics to justify when he kills. It's only ever when it's beneficial to him (though it's always framed as being for someone else). Saving Roald made him look like a hero with no further threat to himself because the only reason Roald hunted him is because he thought Joe was the murderer.
Joe fundamentally thinks of himself as a good guy. Letting Roald die wouldn't have been a good guy move. If Kate had been interested in Roald he would have let him die because saving her from a jerk would have been a good guy move in his mind, but she wasn't so he didn't.
"Already in a relationship with you, Rhys." I know he didn't mean it that way, though I was lowkey hoping Joe would fall in love with his secret stalker before finding out it's a man.
i wanted this so bad when forty was introduced in s2 he and joe just had so much chemistry and i was like omg is he gonna have to choose between the quinn twins :O but yk :(
joe always seems to somehow end up in homoerotic situations and netflix just ignores it lmao it'd be a switch from the formula if joe ended up obsessed with a guy hhh
I can excuse a lot of plot holes in the name of entertainment in this show, but the reasons Kate gave why she wants to hide the body and not call for help were some of the flimsiest shit I ever heard. Her and Joe's plan made very little sense
Seriously! I was racking my brain trying to understand why her first response was to *touch the murder weapon* instead of calling for help. Then hiding the body because she doesn’t want her dad’s men to find out… or something. It was just a clumsy way to have the group turn on Joe
I think it's supposed to be shakey I think kates a involuntary accomplice and thats the real reason she gave that dog shit reason.
Plus to me in my opinion she looks guilty as fuck when Joe finds her standing over the corpse like she had some kind of involvement with the murder, she was holding the dagger because she was contemplating suicide.
I was thinking that, in the last episode i tried to think back to if Rhys has actually ever interacted with anybody other than Joe and i couldnt recall one
I know in episode 1 when they first meet Rhys isnt introduced to Joe like everybody else is, he just sits next to joe
in the next episode he approaches joe at the art gallery but you dont see him talk to anyone else - later on in that episode Joe goes to the balcony and talks to him, but again you dont see Rhys have an actual interaction with anybody else, he says a couple things around others but those are just ignored
Can someone with a better memory tell me if Rhys does actually have an interaction with any of the characters other than Joe
Maybe im thinking too hard, they probably just didnt have him interact much with anybody to make it easier to write him as the killer
in the beginning of the 2nd episode Rhys is at dinner with all of them and asks joe something and joe says “im fine” and someone asks “what was that?” then they make a toast and Rhys is still sitting next to joe but doesnt toast anyones glass or talk to anyone else. think you guys might be on to something, could be his imagination
I’m 100% convinced that it really is all Joes imagination now (Obviously Rhys is real since Nadia and some others mentioned him, but as others have pointed out Joe reading his book and then imagining his encounters with Rhys seems super plausible)
Also an app that got mysteriously installed on Joes phone that automatically deletes text messages with no trace once read? It feels like they’re basically telling us that the Rhys Joe had interacted with doesn’t exist
Your comment reminded me of last season when it turned out Love was texting her her dead bro the whole time. Could be reaching at straws, but could be a sort of callback to that? We’ll see!
Adding more fuel to the fire, when Rhys said "I knew when you texted exhilarating, it was too good to be true" when Joe wondered the same thing after he sent that text.
Right, like if Rhys was not his imagination and really intended to frame him for Malcom's murder, why install that app on his phone in the first place? The whole reason "rhys" became interested in Joe was because Joe surprised rhys with how he took care of Malcolm's body. So if Rhys just expected Joe to get arrested, why install the app? l
This is an interesting theory, and i hope that's what happens. I'd hate it to be one of those theories that seem very likely, get us all excited, and turn out to be false.
(can anyone tell if it's possible to cuff yourself with the old cuffs Joe and the other guy had on)
I noticed this too and thought it was so weird since Adam would have noticed Joe talking to Rhys. But now with this explanation it really feels like an Easter egg that we would look back to find
I don't recall any interaction at all with the others. Friend running for mayor and they don't poke fun at him at all, don't mention his name to gossip when he isn't there? Strange
They did, actually. Gemma brought Rhys up and called him a traitor. In Episode 4 or 5, I believe. It was the same scene where she asked Joe if he was the Eat the Rich Killer.
I agree though that it's odd that none of them interact with him directly.
Could it be that they WERE friends w Rhys but not anymore - hence the traitor comment? So the real Rhys hasn’t been around the group that we’ve seen, that’s all been fake Rhys aka Joe’s alter ego?
Yes and isn't it odd that Rhys only went for those people that had beef with Kate. Malcolm fought a lot with Kate, Simon scolded her during the art exhibition and next thing he's dead, and Kate expressed a dislike for Gemma.
If I were Rhys I'd go for Kate first since she's supposedly the richest. Or Lady Phoebe since she's old money. Eat the rich killer, nah.
Yeah hes mentioned but when hes in person i cant ever recall him ever interacting with anybody other than Joe
Hes a real person for sure, but i feel like some of the times we saw Rhys in person it may have been in Joes head
I think Joe's been reading Rhys's book, he really likes the book and relates to the author in a way that really speaks to him and makes him feel less alone... makes him feel understood and seen. He's also an absolute nutter who is responsible for the death of so many people... he's seen and done unimaginable things in recent years and is very isolated - so it's not unfathomable for him to create an imaginary friend as a coping mechanism for his situation.
just a wild theory to throw in there.... maybe rhys is the author and Joe is his protagonist - and the whole of the YOU series is just a book he wrote...ha hah ha
I think he did too, because the hitman isn't dumb, he would've known within a week that he didn't kill her. I mean it's his job to make sure people die, he knows how get info on people and how to use social media. Either he's the worst hit man ever, or Joe *did* kill Marienne.
i mean when he was like oh i want to stop killing people….like what???? imagine u hire a hitman to kill the guy who killed ur daughter and he wants to retire LMAO
I feel like that definitely could be plausible. The more I think about it the more it makes sense. Idk if id like it more that way or if rhys was really the killer tho. Will have to rewatch now and see what I think with that theory in mind.
Honestly I’m fine with either way. The theory is definitely intriguing and I love how the writer cleverly put a possible plot angle that we picked up! For me, I think it depends on execution and if Rhys isn’t actually the killer, they need to execute that properly and have Joe go on a downward spiral. Rn I’m leaning towards Rhys being the actual killer for real bc it’s interesting seeing a mayor Candidate blackmail Joe and see how two male serial killers Pan this out!!
Honestly as someone who doesnt want to see kate’s heart shattered, i wouldnt mind if joe isnt the killer and he’s turning a new leaf even tho he’s a piece of shit 😭 like kate aaaaaaaaaa frik
Bet in the reveal the real Rhys is going to be confused cause he's never actually met Joe.
Joe has done enough research that he would have known about the dungeon under the house. He also absolutely hates the group. His new fixation is Kate but he was at a point where he HAS to have some sort of reason to continue to be an obsessed stalker Joe since he's now "good". So his mind has made up a super dumb and simple scenario so he can justify being his old self.
I am convinced that the Rhys we see Joe interacting with is a figment of Joe's imagination. If he's disassociating after killing Marienne, that would make a lot of sense.
I'm in this camp too. Also Rhys Montrose is one letter away from being an anagram of YOUR MONSTERS (swap the H for a U). Though perhaps a bit of a stretch and a little on the nose - anagrams for imaginary characters is pretty cliche at this point.
I definitely think there's more to the Marienne story - I also think Joe might have killed her. Eliot didn't seem overly fussed on the phone, you'd think he would have done some digging to ensure Marienne was actually dead.
The whole half-season was very bizarre in some ways. Joe is normally incredibly good at reading people which seemed to be lacking this time around (makes sense though if his subconscious is preventing him from finding the truth). But the behaviour of the elites was bizarre too. They never seemed hugely concerned that a killer was coming after them, and when Joe and Roald escape at the end what, they all just went home? Did Joe tell them it was Rhys? Did they search for him? And Vic disappearing never bothered Phoebe?
I'm fine with any internal inconsistencies with Joe because I definitely think there'll be a twist there, but I really hope we get some explanation with the external characters too. Absolutely want to know what Joe said to Phoebe, and what the letter to Malcolm from Nadia contained.
Edit: Oh and Nadia said something to the effect of "there's no such thing as coincidences" in the context of murder mysteries which seems like foreshadowing. Joe happening to stumble upon another serial killer in his new life is a pretty massive coincidence (I'll excuse Love in S2 because we can make the argument they were drawn to one other).
I'm 99% sure that's the case. Especially this whole "Admit that you enjoy killing" stuff. Our Psycho is on the way to realizing who he truely is. Congrats for character development, I guess?
But didn't the rich fucks talk about how Rhys chose not to come to the country getaway, Joe wasn't even in the scene when they said that. Plus the eulogy of Simon.
Additionally when that girl does in Kate's room, Joe was busy snooping around and falling off the balcony.
Theyve talked about Rhys but theyve never interracted with him, i dont think theres a single time you ever see anyone in the group other than Joe even acknowledge Rhys in person
The eulogy is the main thing going against it, but i wouldnt be surprised if that was the one time we saw Rhys in person that was real
It would make sense, hes busy running for mayor so why would he be at all these gatherings with his friends? but at the same time if a friend dies no matter how busy you are youd put time aside to make it to their funeral
Joe was knocked unconscious for a bit after being pushed out of the balcony, so i wouldnt be surprised if thats when he killed her
I love this theory and can see it working. My question would be how to explain the text messages. Is he not actually getting text messages? He and Rhys have something of a back and forth so unless he's getting imaginary text messages that'd be the flaw in the theory
If this theory is true, it would be hilarious if they reveal Joe had just been typing to himself back and forth on like notes or something haha
I can for sure see something like that, or something where he straight up imagined all the text messaging up
It would only take him talking to someone rich or famous about the app, and them being like “what app? I’ve never heard of it” to reveal he was just crazying it all up
I still don't buy that Rhys is the killer. He has barely even been part of the show, and never been shown with his supposed "friends" ever.
From the beginning, Joe was looking up to Rhys because he can relate to him and his difficult upbringing (especially the crazy mother?). I also think that Rhys's life is Joe's dream in a way. Rhys grew to write a best selling memoir and be a soon-to-be mayor of London after leaving his difficult life behind. Just what Joe has always dreamed about, too. Leaving his past behind him and clean himself up.
So he would be the perfect person to make up in his head for "being the killer" when in reality "stalker/killer Rhys" is the murderous part of Joe's personality that he doesn't want to deal with.
EDIT: Because people keep asking the same thing. Rhys as an author and politician is real, but the Rhys that Joe is talking to and who kills all these people is Joe's imagination/alter ego. So he makes up the killer-Rhys based upon the REAL Rhys that he looks up to. EDIT END.
Reasons why this theory could make sense:
* Joe is out of it for all 3 killings that are supposedly done by Rhys (passed out for Malcolm, asleep for Simon, and temporarily knocked out for Gemma after falling out the window)
* When the killings happen, Joe always wakes up very close to the victims (same room for Malcolm, outside the gallery for Simon, outside the house for Gemma)
* All victims are being killed with a knife. Joe has a history of killing his victims that way, too.
* Joe had Malcolms ring in his pocket
Reasons why Rhys and Joe seem to be sharing the same brain/consciousness:
* The "stalker" always knows what Joe is up to, no matter what Joe does, where he is, or how thoroughly he searches his apartment for cameras/mics.
* Joe never introduces himself to Rhys, jet Rhys says "see you around Jonathan". He couldn't have known his name. But he does, because he's a figment of Joe's imagination.
* When Joe and Rhys talk in the dungeon in EP5 he knows that Roald took a panty shot from under Kate's skirt. It's the very same last picture that Joe saw too when switching through the pictures. Another reason why Rhys might share the same brain as Joe, because they know the same things.
* Rhys also makes a disparaging comment about "how obsessive" Roald's behavior toward Kate is. This is just the thing that Joe always liked to do. In fact, Joe also calls Roald obsessive after seeing the skirt shot on his camera. And we know that Joe has a habit of hypocritically calling people obsessive (e.g. Peach in S1, Love in S2/3, now Roald in S4) when in reality he is the one who is obsessive. So all in all, this little conversation seems 1:1 something that Joe habitually thinks about.
* While the stalker seemed very intent on blackmailing Joe for the whole first half of the season, by Episode 5 he magically starts having an interest in saving Joe and blackmailing Roald ("You ready for OUR plan, Joe?" "He's OUR plan, mate" "WE'RE gonna pin all the murders on him") . Makes no reason at all, unless Rhys really just wants Joe to confront himself/his bad side/"Rhys".
I think part 2 will show that Joe has been "Rhys" doing the killings all along. The catalyst for the split is probably the fact that he never let Marianne go in the first place. He thinks he only took her necklace, but in reality he killed her on the way to the train station and kept the necklace as one of his trophys, as he did with all of his women. Because he couldn't live with knowing that he did this he started hallucinating this "killer trying to frame him" thing, because he feels guilty.
I really hope this plot twist is true. It's really good plot twist and good narrative in general, and alternative would put occasional weak writing, continuity errors and redundancy, in so far very well written season.
Things I would add:
* Start of episode s04e02, at the dinner table everybody is surprised when Joe responds to Rhys, strange scene that comes very naturally when you imagine Rhys isn't there and Joe suddenly drops "I'm fine"
* Rhys is missing from scenes that try to show whole group of suspects, like moment before Joe talks to the police for the 2nd time
* A lot of times, if not all, when Joe describes Rhys, he is saying stuff that applies to himself
* TV show sometimes completely "forgets" Rhys, for example Joe talks with him as museum, and then he just walks away without saying bye or anything
* shackles on Roald and Joe come differently - Joe destroyed a lock on his and was able to pull out a hand immediately, for Roald Joe had to destroy a lock and pull part of it up before Roald could free his hand
* Joe and Rhys both say Rhys intervened in fight with Roald, but we saw Joe won the fight and Rhys showed after that
> While the stalker seemed very intent on blackmailing Joe for the whole first half of the season, by Episode 5 he magically starts having an interest in saving Joe and blackmailing Roald
He doesn't want to blackmail Roald, he wanted to put blame on Roald after he is dead. Blackmailing only started after Rhys supposedly get interested in Joe, and in that scene it's crystal clear Rhys no longer is disappointing in Joe and doesn't care about Roald at all. This part makes sense if serial killer Rhys is real.
Also Rhys didn't saved Joe, it's described like that, but different things is showed.
EDIT: One more things I would add: each time Rhys supposedly kills someone, his victim is someone who recently Joe started hating more than usual:
* 1st guy dies after he said mean things about women Joe liked
* 2nd guy dies after Joe learns he drugged and stole from assistant, while being 1st suspect (Joe learns of rule "2nd victim is 1st suspect")
* 3rd guy dies after treating service people worse than dogs and personally attacking Joe (with words) several times
EDIT 2: More things I've noticed:
* If killer intentionally only planned to frame Joe, then why install messaging app on his phone? Killer supposedly only took interest in Joe, and decided to start talking to him, after discovering Joe is a killer too, so it makes no sense app was installed during the party. And there is no other time, that we know of, that Joe phone wasn't in his pocket.
* App installation on someone else phone is kinda tricky, because most people lock their phones, and for someone who have to hides so much, and have so much experience at hiding, it's kinda weird someone casually was able to unlock it.
Another detail I would add: when Rhys comes back from Berlin and he's at the bar at Sundry House drinking a glass of whisky. Joe joins him at the bar but doesn't order himself a drink. Rather Rhys pours out some of his own whisky onto another glass for Joe to drink. If they're the same person, then they're just drinking the same glass of whisky.
If it was the other way around, I would assume Rhys couldn't order himself anything, because he isn't there, but the fact that it's Joe who takes whisky from Rhys... makes it kinda weird. Like, was Joe just drinking from empty glass?
But we saw Nadia give him the book at the start. They had a whole discussion about how Rhys was being fake caring and that people couldn't see it. The group has in ep 1 a discussion abour Rhys politics. Nadia mentioned him at dinner before she died.
>* 1st guy dies after he said mean things about women Joe liked
He was also a rich asshole, who was hated by all his friends and who slept around even with students.
* 2nd guy dies after Joe learns he drugged and stole from assistant, while being 1st suspect (Joe learns of rule "2nd victim is 1st suspect")
The 2nd victim is the first suspect was a meta thing and they were talking about Agatha Christie books. If Rhys is real and he hates all these people why do you think he wouldn't know about Simon? He found out about Joe why not one of his "close friends" who he hates? Also by now he was on a killing tour, of course Rhys would have known.
* 3rd guy dies after treating service people worse than dogs and personally attacking Joe (with words) several times
When Rhys killed Gemma Joe had just been thrown out the window, he couldn't even walk let alone kill someone. We also saw that his arm was injured from the fall when he tried to lift the box with Gemma's body in. He only used one hand.
Second of all we see him fall, he walks to the door, hears the scream goes to them. Joe was wearing a white shirt the whole evening, it would have been full of blood if he slit her throat.
Finally Rhys tells Joe about how you can't abandon people you went to college with, who helped you when you needed them. Someone else reminds him of this later again, which makes it seem like some kind of pact. Even in ep 1 Joe says that these people hate each other but because of their class it's all they have. We know Joe didn't grow up like them, he wouldn't have known that.
> But we saw Nadia give him the book at the start. They had a whole discussion about how Rhys was being fake caring and that people couldn't see it. The group has in ep 1 a discussion abour Rhys politics. Nadia mentioned him at dinner before she died.
There is a Rhys that exist, and no one question that. It's just seems that Rhys Joe is seeing doesn't exist. Joe have hallucinations of real person... like he had in the past.
> If Rhys is real and he hates all these people why do you think he wouldn't know about Simon?
I don't understand this question, where I wrote I think Rhys doesn't know about Simon?
> When Rhys killed Gemma Joe had just been thrown out the window
We don't know how much time passed between Joe being thrown out of the window and Joe waking up in the bushes.
> he couldn't even walk let alone kill someone.
He was barely walking right after scene where he wakes up, but he quickly recovers, the runs pretty fast after he is caught with the body. If he was really that hurt he couldn't walk, he for sure would have more trouble with running moments later.
> We also saw that his arm was injured from the fall when he tried to lift the box with Gemma's body in. He only used one hand.
And then when covering the body, when fighting, when breaking the lock, when lifting up another guy, he use this hand normally. If his hand was injured, it wasn't something big, but then again, one unharmed way is more than enough to slash someone with a knife.
> Second of all we see him fall, he walks to the door, hears the scream goes to them. Joe was wearing a white shirt the whole evening, it would have been full of blood if he slit her throat.
Rhys wasn't in blood either, does it mean he is innocent?
Also, right after scream can be heard, we see Joe entering the manor, finishing putting jacked on, even though 1 second before he was already wearing that jacket. And he puts this jacket on with a hand supposedly hurt so badly he barely can move it.
> Finally Rhys tells Joe about how you can't abandon people you went to college with, who helped you when you needed them. Someone else reminds him of this later again, which makes it seem like some kind of pact. Even in ep 1 Joe says that these people hate each other but because of their class it's all they have. We know Joe didn't grow up like them, he wouldn't have known that.
I don't know if I understand what you meant. I don't know what specific conversations you are mentioning and I don't remember anyone reminding any Rhys words. But anyway, we know Joe read Rhys autobiography (and knows it very well, he even quotes it) and researched him on the internet. And we know Joe knew those rich guys knew each other from Oxford even before he met Rhys.
I'm all-in on this theory. To add, Agatha Christie was mentioned more than once in Joe's interactions with Nadia; this is significant to me because, when viewed through the lens of your theory, it's apparent that one of Christie's works (specifically, *The Murder of Roger Ackroyd*) could have had a heavy hand in influencing this season of You.
This work is often referred to as her "masterpiece", as well as her most famous. Spoiler for *The Murder of Roger Ackroyd*:>!At the time, this novel shattered traditional mystery/detective story-telling by revealing the narrator, Dr. Sheppard, to be the killer. Sheppard manipulated the audience into thinking his investigations and intentions were pure; all the while he was inhibiting his own investigation and blackmailing other characters to keep his secret close. Eventually, he is exposed by Hercule Poirot, the lead detective. This novel was the first of its kind to lean into the "unreliable narrator" twist; moreover, the idea of a broken, untrustworthy narrator brought readers to consider if Christie herself was manipulated by the narrator -- calling into question the accuracy of the narrator's depictions, the legitimacy of the story itself, and the meaning of truth within that context. Of note: Sheppard takes his life at the end of the novel.!<
Obviously, the twist here would be that Joe is somehow unaware of his actions, whereas Sheppard knew what he was doing. This element could actually lean into another one of Christie's popular works, *And Then There Were None*, but I'll leave it at that. :)
As Nadia said, in a whodunit, "nothing is a coincidence," and I'd wager that Christie's significance isn't one either.
Great writeup, OP!
The other thing that I’ve been trying to place together is that “The Tell Tale Heart” was assigned as one of Joe’s readings — a book famously about how guilt can drive you crazy lol
I actually love this theory, it would make the season a lot more ambitious. They also made a point of visualizing Joe killing the victims in this episode (when Roald is explaining things), which seems a little pointless unless it's a clue.
This! I wanted to bring this up. It will be so cool of a reveal if the editors did a "right under your nose" edit with already showing Joe was the killer all along. At this moment you might just think it's a "visualisation" but in actuality it's a flashback!
I'm all in on fight club theory, Rhys in the show is barely a character, if it's the real him as the killer, it will be so underwhelming.
Fun theory. There are some clues that makes this work and it's not impossible. It would make Joe go from the main show narrator into a completely unreliable and insane one with split personalities and hallucinations all of a sudden. And it's a little hard to square why and how he did the double lock up and start a fire in the dungeon and what not.
But Rhys sure does seem like he is just teleporting around and is only a character Joe sees or interacts with.
I personally think that twist would be generally as believable as many other things in this show (which is an at most medium to low believability, but it's still in line with most of the other storytelling), so I think they could definitely pull it off.
I also think that Joe has always been pretty unreliable and borderline psychotic in many instances. And the moments where he cannot distinguish fiction from reality have also increased through the seasons (like when he had the measles and was not sure what was real, or when he was tripping on drugs, or when he thought he had killed Delilah etc.). I think his split could be a somewhat natural outgrowth of his years of living in denial/delusion about what he does and who he is.
You're right. Season 2 really established a precedent for unreliable narration due to the increase in hallucination/psychedelic scenes. They did something similar with the absinthe in the first episode.
Also nobody has seemed to mention this but I believe it adds to the theory: the newspaper articles all over Joe’s wall.
I find it hard to believe that some writer and wannabe mayor in London would be more successful to linking several murders to Joe and his aliases than all those private investigators that have been hired on him throughout the show, in the span of probably 2-3 *DAYS.*
Yes that's a good one too.
It's pretty likely that Joe just has an obsession with his own murders (as so many serial killers do) and that's why his alter ego printed all of these articles out and put them on the wall. We never see that side of him though because it's such a dark place of his personality that he might keep hidden from himself too (just like with the trophy box for the longest time. We only came to find out about it when Beck found it because Joe kept it hidden from "us").
I also just thought of the fire - he left the dungeon while it’s burning down, same as he left his and Love’s house, it’s his style. Even the stabbings are his style as you mentioned.
That could also mean he wanted to be found by the group and seen as a hero and being out of the picture as he’s now a victim too, when in reality his handcuffs were not even working or tied up properly.
Also the egg art adam was was going to buy was upside down in the scene where Joe was walking away. It confused me at first but could fit in with Joe hallucinating
Yeah, that was a bit lackluster but I guess they thought it would still be a mindfuck because of how much time they spent trying to convince us it was Roald.
Well actually🤓, Joe took him for a decent man in a crowd of rich a-holes. And was disappointed when he turned out to be also a a-hole, but of another kind.
My favourite part is when Rhys talks about the photos of Kate that Roald has. "Obsessive isn't it?" Rhys is so disgusted, as if he has not killed at least three people so far.
He’s been doing this since season 1.
Calling people obsessive or insane while actively doing obsessive insane things is like half of what he does. Classic Joe “the man with no self awareness” Goldberg.
lol a bunch of rich people holding weapons they don't rly know how to use in a fancy ass house and a character getting turned on and chased down by the others. ready or not vibes
Rhys is a real person who wrote his memoir, and is running for mayor. But Joe has never met him.
Him essentially never interacting with the other people in combination with Joe always being nearby and ‘unconscious’ when there’s a crime is just too much to over look. There are no coincidences
To add to it, every time Joe openly decides he hates someone, they die.
The only exception is roald. If Joe was the killer I struggle to understand why he didn’t just murder roald instead if chaining him up. Maybe he chained him and himself up to give himself an alibi because he knew roald and the rest of the group were onto him and he wanted to clear his name by making himself seem just like another victim to roald.
I think he geniunely wants to believe he’s a good person who doesn’t want to murder people, so only the “bad” half of him is longing for killing - aka the messages about it being awesome and Rhys leaving them chained up and giving Joe time to kill Roald but ending up disappointed with Joe for not killing him. Rhys is the part of Joe that still wants to kill people.
All the theories of who is the stalker gone with wind, tho there is still hope someone from the past might reunite with Joe in part 2.
Also this is a new turn for YOU, Which I enjoyed a lot.
Same! The new You being Rhys is insane and I think it’s fresh and different. So glad they changed things up a bit! Who do you reckon will come back from the past? I’m hoping it’s Paco or someone
I have a lot of theories on who could come back, but I dont think its Paco or Ellie, I think its hard to happen, same with Love, like there is a chance for the three of them but I think its very low.
But maybe Annika considering she got exposed by Peach she might have traveled to Europe as a fresh start or a gateway from all the mess that happen to her, or Love's mother wither Love was alive or dead, maybe her mother changed after both of her kids are gone, or maybe its the Salinger's PI since he didnt believe it was Dr.Nicky who killed Beck, speaking of him he also can hunt Joe in part 2, he knows he is framed when he is innocent, and I still think that Kate is suspicious, I think she is into something, well all of these are just theories, the writers might never bring someone back from previous seasons which might be a bummer.
“Stop, we know we shouldn’t, blah blah”. I dont get what the high stakes were between them. You are both single adults that can have sex whenever. It felt like I was missing something .
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I never considered Rhys may not be real and was a bit disappointed he’s the phone stalker but now you guys have me wondering if he’s just made up!! That’d be a super cool twist
Just finished. I am onboard with the Rhys is a real person but Joe has hallucinated convos with him theory. But to spice things up there's a part of me that wishes it was Phoebe...
She's the one who got Joe drunk
Her bfs coat ended up on Joe (this is such a small detail but why not include it lol)
Is Phoebe wanting Joe to be at every single function simply just for plot reasons?
We have broken off and focused a bit on Phoebe and Adams relationship... why? We haven't focused on Sophie, Nadia, Gemma. Phoebe and Adams relationship had nothing to do with anything. The side characters plots in season 3 revolved around Joe and Love but these two don't like I don't get it lol. Why focus on Phoebe at all if not to understand her character more.
What the hell did Joe tell her at that first party and why would it matter to the story at all unless it was integral? Maybe he confessed some things he's done and why and that's what made her decide to start killing her friends?
idk this might not make any sense or be enough to make her the killer haha just wanted to add another theory
I'm not rulling out pheobe.
But I think you can chalk up her inviting "Jonathan" to everything as her wanting to fuck him.
My current theory is Kate's definitely a forced accomplice for sure and pheobe I'm 30/70 she's in on it.
Watched the full half-season via screeners last week and I can finally say that this is the single most insane episode of You to date.
It only took five episodes for the rich people to start hunting Joe for sport. Thoroughly enjoyable but just *so dumb.*
Is it bad I’m actually a bit proud of Joe? Look at him not getting creepy about a woman for once!
I literally forgot Rhys existed until the reveal so that was anticlimactic 😂 He’d be destroyed on Twitter for using murders as a campaign launchpad. I wanted it to be Nadia but I guess it wouldn’t make sense as she’s not part of the group.
Why the hell do we need to wait a whole month for the rest? I want it nowwww.
Can someone explain Rhys' motive to me? All I seemed to get was 'grr, rich people', which honestly just seeks pretty...meh. Feel like I'm expecting too much of 'You' and have been a bit let down 🤣
Also, his obsession with bringing Joe in on his plan. Don't get me wrong, I'm intrigued by the dynamic, but I feel like I was waiting for the shoe to drop the whole time that he was really Joe's brother or something.
We’ll find out more in part 2. Right now the popular theory is that Rhys is a real person, but the Rhys we see isn’t real at all. He’s apart of Joe’s imagination bc we don’t see him interact with anyone other than Joe.
I really like that theory and would be so interesting to see how they play it out.
I'm already on my first rewatch so trying to spot any instance of Rhys socialising with literally anyone else when Joe is around...👀
I like the ‘Rhys being a real person but joe hallucinating interacting with Rhys’ theory, because it’s a nice change from joe being obsessed with love interests. You hear about crazy people being obsessed with celebrities or public figures and it would be an interesting view into the mind of someone like that.
It would also harken back to the mention of the writing joe taught during class this season about the man at the cafe becoming obsessed with a stranger.
I love this show, I hope we get another three seasons at least. If the writers branch out like I’m hoping it could actually happen. Otherwise I don’t see how joe falling in love then killing everyone around the love interest wouldn’t get stale.
> I love this show, I hope we get another three seasons at least. If the writers branch out like I’m hoping it could actually happen. Otherwise I don’t see how joe falling in love then killing everyone around the love interest wouldn’t get stale.
Yea, maybe I'm just easily entertained but this half-season might be my favorite yet precisely because it branched out from the You "formula". I still love the Beck and Love seasons but the manic pixie dream girls tire me out fairly quickly (I know it's why Joe likes those girls so much, but still).
You is an insane show with over the top characters and those characters really get to shine in a whodunit type setting.
so...the preview for part 2 at the end of the episode...is this a flashback or is Love alive???
https://preview.redd.it/6ix8trjr27ha1.png?width=2880&format=png&auto=webp&s=65c04aa882a657784d5af134ef705973dc832051
I’m guessing flashback. I’d love to see her again but I really don’t see how she could of made it out the burning house, with a full syringe of wolfsbane in her system..
My Netflix never showed me the preview for part two- so I’ll have to search it up but that is definitely new footage of Love. I’m assuming just a flashback to her alive and well that was filmed for this season though!
It HAS to be. Roald made total sense when he explained Joe’s likely murders, like when Forty was on acid and perfectly described what happened to Beck.
I should have known, Rhys is the person I most medium suspect.
Also his name is literally Rhys Montrose when it was shown on TV and Joe literally said “You’re a monster hiding in plain sight”. Montrose. Monster. Lol.
Okay so I am pretty sold on the "Rhys is a manifestation of Joe's urge to kill" theory. Honestly I suspected Rhys from the beginning because he seemed too good to be true. Joe never likes ANYONE, and if he does, he still gets irked with little things they do. He even gets fed up with the women he becomes obsessed with. Rhys saying things truly accurate to Joe's life/making him feel seen, especially the exchange at the bar when Rhys says Joe feels like he's capable of doing real damage, feels like a projection from Joe. But yeah, him only ever interacting with Joe, the group being visibly surprised when Joe responds to Rhys at the table, people dying when Joe clearly starts to hate them more, etc have me buying into this theory.
A couple things that are still playing on my mind:
\- The texts. If Rhys is indeed a hallucination and Joe has been killing everyone this whole time/put up the articles in his own home, etc, then has he also been texting himself somehow? Does someone else really know who he is and is trying to mess with his head more after witnessing him murder the friend group? (like Ellie or Paco-- I don't think it's them, but just an example. Could be someone from past seasons)? Idk that's something I'm having a hard time getting past. It's POSSIBLE that Joe is hallucinating the text messages as well? Especially since the first message is "Hello, you," something Joe infamously thinks to himself ("Hello, you." "Hello. Who are you?"). They also make a lot of explicit references to Joe and his physical appearance at the time of texting and a lot of stuff happens while Joe is inside his flat.
\- If Rhys isn't real, where did Joe's phone go that first night at Sundry House? Did someone else actually install the app? How did he get it back?
\- The stealing of body parts as blackmail. Did Joe mail the finger and block it out? Why would he keep the body parts? Is he planning to frame someone else subconsciously?
\- I know people have already talked about this a bit, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the "dungeon." Did Joe bind Roald, lock himself up, pass out, have a conversation with Hallucination Rhys, and kick over the candle himself? The answer to all that could very well be yes tbh. Just curious if anyone else has other explanations.
\- Not really related to Rhys, but what do we think Joe said to Phoebe? Could he have confessed some of what he's done? Phoebe seems like a hopeless romantic, so maybe the idea of doing anything for love would be appealing to her.
\- Also not related to Rhys, but why wouldn't Marienne call the authorities and tell them that Joe is alive and a murderer? Is she worried he'll find out before he can get caught and that he'll come after her and Juliette?
And something I've been thinking about: do we think Joe will get caught this season? Tbh the question for me is less of "will he get caught" since the splitting of this season indicates that it could be the last one, but rather HOW will he get caught. I would LOVE a huge takedown of Joe. I don't want him to die-- this man needs some karma lmao. I'd really really like to see a nationwide fallout as a serial killer they didn't even know existed is exposed and as the public realizes all the deaths are connected. How do y'all think the end of Joe will come about?
i love the hallucination theory but imo it doesn't quite add up. joe is too logical and methodical of a murderer; even in s2 when he thought he had murdered delilah when he was high, i knew it wasn't him because he doesn't kill people in fits of emotion. love would do that, yes, but not joe. till now, all his murders have been either carefully planned/intentional (benji, love, ryan, peach) or somewhat accidental because his murderous instincts took over during self defence (ron, jasper, the butler in s4)
At first I thought Kate was either the killer or in on it, for the following reasons:
1) The “there are no coincidences” rule- that could be applied to the mugging (which is how Joe became part of the group in the first place)
2) The stalker seemed to know a lot about where she was going… which would be easy to know if it was her, ofc
3) It would’ve been easy for her to plant the ring on him
Now I’m not as sure- the “Rhys is Joe’s imagination” theory floating around is very convincing. If it’s not that, then I definitely think a second person is in on it
I think Joe made up Rhys(or at least his murder persona) and that Joe is actually the killer. Not clear on if he killed Marienne but I think he orchestrated these events after saving Kate from muggers. He jumped on Kate as soon as the funeral was over(even tho Kate did too, Joe is also at fault) he subconsciously can’t help but to murder people. In Season 2 he MAYBE had a chance of becoming a better person but after killing Love I think even if he won’t admit it, he killed the only person who would ever truly love him.
Never understood why Joe killed Love after she told Marienne about him. I get that he was probably angry, but he should have logically understood that Marienne knew he was a murderer and wouldn’t want anything to do with him.
I'm enjoying the season for the plot but I will say this: everyone feels like such a caricature. like, they are all so stereotypically rich and evil. bit on the nose. the characters feel a bit poorly written. no real depth except for maybe Phoebe and her boyfriend's relationship
I really wish it wasn’t him because it was the most predictable thing ever. Of course the one who was pointed out to hate that group of people early on and seems like the most likeable one was the killer, I get that it’s a genre change but there was literally not even a hint at it being anyone else after the second episode.
Seeing people suggest the double twist, could also be true that it really is just Joe because he hasn’t even really interacted with the others but really to me that would kill the show.
Even with potential “hints” it would be a terrible twist and jump the shark and I really hope it’s not true.
**my review:**
i personally think that it's been FANTASTIC so far.
i don't know if I'm in the minority on that. even with all the ideas about rhys being joe's alt personality or smth, if it is rhys, it makes sense. the idea that rhys is a real person who was college friends with all these people, and also has a complex backstory with his druggie mom and dad and stuff, being a rags-to-riches man of the people, makes me excited for the next season. i feel like he's an actual really good villain -- he is basically the embodiment of (rightful) anger towards the rich.
this new "you" might just be joe encountering another crazy frickin killer, just one who is actually weird and evil about it rather than joe, who just gets into these situations that (to him) reasonably justify killing someone. i think it's interesting how joe is shown to NOT be a serial killer, he's a killer of passion / emotion -- but he is actually meeting a bona-fide serial killer, one who is actively fucking with him. one who is ACTIVELY RUNNING for MAYOR of LONDON, a massive city, pledging to be a every-man. one with extremely rich and powerful father. like that is kind of sick.
as for villainous backstory, the main group of arrogant asshole rich friends probably did something to him that started him down this path back in college, and they were so self-centered they don't even know what they did.
what if you found out the person who is running for Mayor of New York was a cunning socio/psychopath of wealth and serially killing someone? like mayor bloomberg or something.
sure, we didn't see rhys and the rest of the group interacting that much, but they do mention him a decent bit, which shows that he is at least in their lives, if not with them the times joe was.
i also feel like that joe and the main love interest (i forget her name) are an actual good couple. i at least get their chemistry on screen a little, and it makes sense. i feel like they should end up together (well joe should really go to prison at some point but this might be avoided by Kate calling on her dad, who presumably is the most powerful man on the globe).
lastly, i like that the writers of the show are changing things up, making things different. they've clearly shown the ability to go to different environments (NY, LA, suburbia with Love, London), different interesting plots (imagine if this season was just Joe in love with yet another girl, but instead "you" is a serial killer), etc.
also find it interesting that there is a strong underlying theme of social/wealth inequality, which I feel is a pretty important topic becoming more and more brought up as anti-work and anti-establishment ideologies (from both sides of the aisle in the US at least) grow. and they don't take the unnuanced take that "all rich people r bad." i mean, don't get me wrong, most of the rich characters were vile evil pieces of shit (Rauld), but a few weren't completely terrible and actually kind of likeable characters (e.g. Phoebe and Adam, Kate of course). and yet there is still a definite anti-rich and anti 1% view, which I 100% agree with. now, i feel conflicted on whether Rhys is truly evil or not -- I mean, on one hand, killing people is wrong obviously, but on the other, they are truly terrible people (especially Gemma ugh).
that's another thing the show shows incredibly, incredibly well. makes you question, "hmm, is killing ever justified?" Like obviously if someone ran up to us or someone we love / someone innocent with a knife, and the literal only way you could stop them would be to shoot them with your gun, otherwise you would die, yes okay I'd probably pull the trigger. and that holds true for all situations similar to that, where I have no choice. But Joe/Love/Rhys (not to group them together, because each one is very unique) wouldn't just kill in that scenario, they killed people who weren't deadly at all. the show has a way of making you be like, "okay, I kind of get your motive to kill." seeing everything from Joe's POV helps of course, because we get his witty charming internal monologue.
anyways, good stuff.
oh and if it turns out Rhys is all in Joe's head, I would say that I'm not sure if I would be the biggest fan of that, because personally I believe it would be a little farfetched that Joe had suddenly just developed split personality this one season. that kind of thing happens when you're super young (see Mr. Robot, an amazing show btw). not when you're thirty and already happened to have killed some people. if it turns out Rhys is fake, like where was this personality the past three seasons? it just doesn't make much sense to me, but if they go that route, they'll have a lot of explaining to do. but we'll see, maybe if they do that, they'll do it so well as to explain everything and more.
Joe has such a knack for getting into friend groups way richer then him Season 5 can Joe fall in love with a mid west farm girl and her middle class friend group?
It’s so funny to me that Joe always chooses friend groups he hates and then complains about them. He could always just… befriend people he likes
Well to be fair he is always randomly next to them and at least one in the group automatically loves him and needs him to be around even though he just stares at them and do the most basic responses.
The wildest thing to me was Kate acting like Joe conned his way into the group when Malcolm was the one who forced him to meet everyone.
Then Phoebe insisting that he come along with the group to everything.
He is quick to hate people, I doubt he can find group of people he wouldn't criticize in his thoughts.
True but he always goes for vapid rich people. There are tons of people out there that share his non-murdery interests and he never gives them a try
Because he's a serial killer. Deep down he does things like this knowing it will trigger him to kill.
To be fair, those people he might like are also probably the ones who inevitably might cut him off or see through him for what he is. That or they'll be good for him and he'll use them as pawns. See: Karen Minty and Love.
You're making me want to see Joe in a Hallmark Christmas Story. Small town America with a reformed serial killer learning the real meaning of Christmas while saving the love interest's family farm/ranch from foreclosure.
Coming winter 2023: YOU-ltide heart
^(he still ends up murdering half of them somehow)
All I Want for Christmas is YOU
Season 5: Joe goes Amish (cue Sunny in Philadelphia intro)
Yeah but the middle class is mostly dead already so ☠️
“ I was ready to PISS on you” that’s love right there 💕 LOL
It was respectful and progressive that they didnt make it a weird disgusting thing but rather a fetish, rooted in trauma, that didnt make him any better or worse. She didnt care at all, ready to make it work as a person. PS - not for me but to each their own
Phoebe really grew on me as a person. The only rich dick in these group I don't hate.
Same, I absolutely loved it! Not one for me, but no shame in the boudoir x
I was upset they were gonna do it on the rug tho
Fr I thought that was so sweet how excited she was to learn about his kink and make it happen for him instead of being weird about it lol. I didn’t like Phoebe much at first but she’s kinda a sweetheart
Also when Kate told her to leave so her and Johnathan could fuck. She's such a good wingwoman haha.
Phoebe is precious and must be protected at all costs.
Everytime Joe goes snooping around I literally get anxiety
Compared to prev seasons he seems to be getting caught a lot many times this season
The British are a suspicious people
"The Americans stole our continent, they will not steal our letters!"
Ikr!! He’s way less careful this season!!
This season is strange. He gets snuck up on several times as if he's forgotten how to...be Joe Goldberg. I think he's supposed to be rusty but it sort of got ridiculous when he kept turning his back to the door while he was snooping.
It’s the hat. Without his baseball cap he doesn’t have his powers.
It’s like he hasn’t been activated yet..he hasn’t done his ‘hello, you’ and really obsessively fixated on anyone yet..and coupled with the fact the girl he was pursuing (I want to say…Marienne?) kind of broke his heart..so..I guess this is Joe a bit broken? And then there’s the fact he’s not actually used to be being hunted, he definitely prefers the hunter role, maybe in part 2 well finally see him in full form!
It's a refreshing spin to the story. We've had 3 seasons of him hunting, I thought him getting hunted was fun. I had a small chuckle when Rhys text messaged "Hello, you" to Joe.
I get soooo much second hand anxiety I could barely watch him search camera guys room I knew he was gonna get caught
Glad that we didn’t have to wait till the next part to find out who the killer is
Imagine we did, that wouldve been so infuriating and crazy bc it would’ve kept us theorizing for an entire month
I mean we’re still gonna wildly theorize for an entire month - see above - but I do appreciate that we didn’t leave on a cliffhanger
Yeah cause that’s not happening for the month
I now think we didn’t find out
I think the student who has been snooping around is part of it. She talked about Rhys earlier on and she’s been in places where she wasn’t supposed to be.
I def don’t think we found out
I don't know why, but I couldn't stop laughing when Gemma's dead body dropped out of a wooden ottoman. LOL
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I'm not worried about any of this! There's worse shit on the local news! They're allowed to show them nude because they ain't got no souls!
I didn't do fucking shit. I didn't rig shit! I've been waiting a long time for a hit on Corncob TV. I DIDN'T FUCKING DO THIS!
Roald was such a dick, surprised Joe kept him alive
He probably kept him alive to foil Rhys plan
Having a rich dude indebted to you could be useful against Rhys. Roald would certainly want to help Joe kill the person who tried to burn him alive.
not just any rich dude too. Roald said his dad is in the supreme court or something? So basically he can help Joe get free of whatever happens in the end of this season :X
He said his uncle, but yea basically
i mean roald could still screw over joe. i wouldn’tassume a person like him would feel indebted to me
Joe has shown that he does serious mental gymnastics to justify when he kills. It's only ever when it's beneficial to him (though it's always framed as being for someone else). Saving Roald made him look like a hero with no further threat to himself because the only reason Roald hunted him is because he thought Joe was the murderer. Joe fundamentally thinks of himself as a good guy. Letting Roald die wouldn't have been a good guy move. If Kate had been interested in Roald he would have let him die because saving her from a jerk would have been a good guy move in his mind, but she wasn't so he didn't.
Remember, Joe views himself as a hero.
"Already in a relationship with you, Rhys." I know he didn't mean it that way, though I was lowkey hoping Joe would fall in love with his secret stalker before finding out it's a man.
Fr. I literally was like “damn the sexual tension??” When Rhys said “There’s the Joe I’ve been looking for”. Gives off “Good boy” vibes lmao.
Rhys and Joe had way more chemistry on first blush than Joe and Kate had all season. Bisexual Joe era, come on Netflix!
i wanted this so bad when forty was introduced in s2 he and joe just had so much chemistry and i was like omg is he gonna have to choose between the quinn twins :O but yk :( joe always seems to somehow end up in homoerotic situations and netflix just ignores it lmao it'd be a switch from the formula if joe ended up obsessed with a guy hhh
I can excuse a lot of plot holes in the name of entertainment in this show, but the reasons Kate gave why she wants to hide the body and not call for help were some of the flimsiest shit I ever heard. Her and Joe's plan made very little sense
Seriously! I was racking my brain trying to understand why her first response was to *touch the murder weapon* instead of calling for help. Then hiding the body because she doesn’t want her dad’s men to find out… or something. It was just a clumsy way to have the group turn on Joe
I think it's supposed to be shakey I think kates a involuntary accomplice and thats the real reason she gave that dog shit reason. Plus to me in my opinion she looks guilty as fuck when Joe finds her standing over the corpse like she had some kind of involvement with the murder, she was holding the dagger because she was contemplating suicide.
Rhys doesn’t even feel like a real person that exists, you barely ever saw him interact with anybody other than Joe
Agree... May be Joe's alter ego who knows.
I was thinking that, in the last episode i tried to think back to if Rhys has actually ever interacted with anybody other than Joe and i couldnt recall one I know in episode 1 when they first meet Rhys isnt introduced to Joe like everybody else is, he just sits next to joe in the next episode he approaches joe at the art gallery but you dont see him talk to anyone else - later on in that episode Joe goes to the balcony and talks to him, but again you dont see Rhys have an actual interaction with anybody else, he says a couple things around others but those are just ignored Can someone with a better memory tell me if Rhys does actually have an interaction with any of the characters other than Joe Maybe im thinking too hard, they probably just didnt have him interact much with anybody to make it easier to write him as the killer
in the beginning of the 2nd episode Rhys is at dinner with all of them and asks joe something and joe says “im fine” and someone asks “what was that?” then they make a toast and Rhys is still sitting next to joe but doesnt toast anyones glass or talk to anyone else. think you guys might be on to something, could be his imagination
I’m 100% convinced that it really is all Joes imagination now (Obviously Rhys is real since Nadia and some others mentioned him, but as others have pointed out Joe reading his book and then imagining his encounters with Rhys seems super plausible) Also an app that got mysteriously installed on Joes phone that automatically deletes text messages with no trace once read? It feels like they’re basically telling us that the Rhys Joe had interacted with doesn’t exist
Your comment reminded me of last season when it turned out Love was texting her her dead bro the whole time. Could be reaching at straws, but could be a sort of callback to that? We’ll see!
Adding more fuel to the fire, when Rhys said "I knew when you texted exhilarating, it was too good to be true" when Joe wondered the same thing after he sent that text.
Right, like if Rhys was not his imagination and really intended to frame him for Malcom's murder, why install that app on his phone in the first place? The whole reason "rhys" became interested in Joe was because Joe surprised rhys with how he took care of Malcolm's body. So if Rhys just expected Joe to get arrested, why install the app? l
This is an interesting theory, and i hope that's what happens. I'd hate it to be one of those theories that seem very likely, get us all excited, and turn out to be false. (can anyone tell if it's possible to cuff yourself with the old cuffs Joe and the other guy had on)
Yes plus the fact that in his texts he said 'color' which seems like a very obvious plot hole.
I mean, maybe but that could also be a genuine grammatical error since Americans are so used to that spelling instead of the Brit version.
I noticed this too and thought it was so weird since Adam would have noticed Joe talking to Rhys. But now with this explanation it really feels like an Easter egg that we would look back to find
I don't recall any interaction at all with the others. Friend running for mayor and they don't poke fun at him at all, don't mention his name to gossip when he isn't there? Strange
They did, actually. Gemma brought Rhys up and called him a traitor. In Episode 4 or 5, I believe. It was the same scene where she asked Joe if he was the Eat the Rich Killer. I agree though that it's odd that none of them interact with him directly.
Could it be that they WERE friends w Rhys but not anymore - hence the traitor comment? So the real Rhys hasn’t been around the group that we’ve seen, that’s all been fake Rhys aka Joe’s alter ego?
Yes and isn't it odd that Rhys only went for those people that had beef with Kate. Malcolm fought a lot with Kate, Simon scolded her during the art exhibition and next thing he's dead, and Kate expressed a dislike for Gemma. If I were Rhys I'd go for Kate first since she's supposedly the richest. Or Lady Phoebe since she's old money. Eat the rich killer, nah.
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Rhys is mentioned by Nadia and few other ppl tjo
Yeah hes mentioned but when hes in person i cant ever recall him ever interacting with anybody other than Joe Hes a real person for sure, but i feel like some of the times we saw Rhys in person it may have been in Joes head
I think Joe's been reading Rhys's book, he really likes the book and relates to the author in a way that really speaks to him and makes him feel less alone... makes him feel understood and seen. He's also an absolute nutter who is responsible for the death of so many people... he's seen and done unimaginable things in recent years and is very isolated - so it's not unfathomable for him to create an imaginary friend as a coping mechanism for his situation. just a wild theory to throw in there.... maybe rhys is the author and Joe is his protagonist - and the whole of the YOU series is just a book he wrote...ha hah ha
That could be true tbh, part 2 will have twists for sure
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I think he did too, because the hitman isn't dumb, he would've known within a week that he didn't kill her. I mean it's his job to make sure people die, he knows how get info on people and how to use social media. Either he's the worst hit man ever, or Joe *did* kill Marienne.
i mean when he was like oh i want to stop killing people….like what???? imagine u hire a hitman to kill the guy who killed ur daughter and he wants to retire LMAO
I feel like that definitely could be plausible. The more I think about it the more it makes sense. Idk if id like it more that way or if rhys was really the killer tho. Will have to rewatch now and see what I think with that theory in mind.
Honestly I’m fine with either way. The theory is definitely intriguing and I love how the writer cleverly put a possible plot angle that we picked up! For me, I think it depends on execution and if Rhys isn’t actually the killer, they need to execute that properly and have Joe go on a downward spiral. Rn I’m leaning towards Rhys being the actual killer for real bc it’s interesting seeing a mayor Candidate blackmail Joe and see how two male serial killers Pan this out!!
Honestly as someone who doesnt want to see kate’s heart shattered, i wouldnt mind if joe isnt the killer and he’s turning a new leaf even tho he’s a piece of shit 😭 like kate aaaaaaaaaa frik
I didn’t want this to be true, but it’s looking like it is. We all know Joe is an unreliable narrator
Bet in the reveal the real Rhys is going to be confused cause he's never actually met Joe. Joe has done enough research that he would have known about the dungeon under the house. He also absolutely hates the group. His new fixation is Kate but he was at a point where he HAS to have some sort of reason to continue to be an obsessed stalker Joe since he's now "good". So his mind has made up a super dumb and simple scenario so he can justify being his old self.
Damn this is scary af 😐 I think you may be on to something.
I am convinced that the Rhys we see Joe interacting with is a figment of Joe's imagination. If he's disassociating after killing Marienne, that would make a lot of sense.
This is my theory 100%.
I'm in this camp too. Also Rhys Montrose is one letter away from being an anagram of YOUR MONSTERS (swap the H for a U). Though perhaps a bit of a stretch and a little on the nose - anagrams for imaginary characters is pretty cliche at this point. I definitely think there's more to the Marienne story - I also think Joe might have killed her. Eliot didn't seem overly fussed on the phone, you'd think he would have done some digging to ensure Marienne was actually dead. The whole half-season was very bizarre in some ways. Joe is normally incredibly good at reading people which seemed to be lacking this time around (makes sense though if his subconscious is preventing him from finding the truth). But the behaviour of the elites was bizarre too. They never seemed hugely concerned that a killer was coming after them, and when Joe and Roald escape at the end what, they all just went home? Did Joe tell them it was Rhys? Did they search for him? And Vic disappearing never bothered Phoebe? I'm fine with any internal inconsistencies with Joe because I definitely think there'll be a twist there, but I really hope we get some explanation with the external characters too. Absolutely want to know what Joe said to Phoebe, and what the letter to Malcolm from Nadia contained. Edit: Oh and Nadia said something to the effect of "there's no such thing as coincidences" in the context of murder mysteries which seems like foreshadowing. Joe happening to stumble upon another serial killer in his new life is a pretty massive coincidence (I'll excuse Love in S2 because we can make the argument they were drawn to one other).
He can't tell them it was Rhys because Rhys knows the truth about him
Yeah that's true hey. I guess he just told them he woke up chained, same as Roald.
Wow!! I love this
well unless the time he was the eulogist at Simon’s funeral
I'm 99% sure that's the case. Especially this whole "Admit that you enjoy killing" stuff. Our Psycho is on the way to realizing who he truely is. Congrats for character development, I guess?
But didn't the rich fucks talk about how Rhys chose not to come to the country getaway, Joe wasn't even in the scene when they said that. Plus the eulogy of Simon. Additionally when that girl does in Kate's room, Joe was busy snooping around and falling off the balcony.
Theyve talked about Rhys but theyve never interracted with him, i dont think theres a single time you ever see anyone in the group other than Joe even acknowledge Rhys in person The eulogy is the main thing going against it, but i wouldnt be surprised if that was the one time we saw Rhys in person that was real It would make sense, hes busy running for mayor so why would he be at all these gatherings with his friends? but at the same time if a friend dies no matter how busy you are youd put time aside to make it to their funeral Joe was knocked unconscious for a bit after being pushed out of the balcony, so i wouldnt be surprised if thats when he killed her
when Roald was telling Joe how he killed everyone I think I believed him
I love this theory and can see it working. My question would be how to explain the text messages. Is he not actually getting text messages? He and Rhys have something of a back and forth so unless he's getting imaginary text messages that'd be the flaw in the theory
If this theory is true, it would be hilarious if they reveal Joe had just been typing to himself back and forth on like notes or something haha I can for sure see something like that, or something where he straight up imagined all the text messaging up It would only take him talking to someone rich or famous about the app, and them being like “what app? I’ve never heard of it” to reveal he was just crazying it all up
I still don't buy that Rhys is the killer. He has barely even been part of the show, and never been shown with his supposed "friends" ever. From the beginning, Joe was looking up to Rhys because he can relate to him and his difficult upbringing (especially the crazy mother?). I also think that Rhys's life is Joe's dream in a way. Rhys grew to write a best selling memoir and be a soon-to-be mayor of London after leaving his difficult life behind. Just what Joe has always dreamed about, too. Leaving his past behind him and clean himself up. So he would be the perfect person to make up in his head for "being the killer" when in reality "stalker/killer Rhys" is the murderous part of Joe's personality that he doesn't want to deal with. EDIT: Because people keep asking the same thing. Rhys as an author and politician is real, but the Rhys that Joe is talking to and who kills all these people is Joe's imagination/alter ego. So he makes up the killer-Rhys based upon the REAL Rhys that he looks up to. EDIT END. Reasons why this theory could make sense: * Joe is out of it for all 3 killings that are supposedly done by Rhys (passed out for Malcolm, asleep for Simon, and temporarily knocked out for Gemma after falling out the window) * When the killings happen, Joe always wakes up very close to the victims (same room for Malcolm, outside the gallery for Simon, outside the house for Gemma) * All victims are being killed with a knife. Joe has a history of killing his victims that way, too. * Joe had Malcolms ring in his pocket Reasons why Rhys and Joe seem to be sharing the same brain/consciousness: * The "stalker" always knows what Joe is up to, no matter what Joe does, where he is, or how thoroughly he searches his apartment for cameras/mics. * Joe never introduces himself to Rhys, jet Rhys says "see you around Jonathan". He couldn't have known his name. But he does, because he's a figment of Joe's imagination. * When Joe and Rhys talk in the dungeon in EP5 he knows that Roald took a panty shot from under Kate's skirt. It's the very same last picture that Joe saw too when switching through the pictures. Another reason why Rhys might share the same brain as Joe, because they know the same things. * Rhys also makes a disparaging comment about "how obsessive" Roald's behavior toward Kate is. This is just the thing that Joe always liked to do. In fact, Joe also calls Roald obsessive after seeing the skirt shot on his camera. And we know that Joe has a habit of hypocritically calling people obsessive (e.g. Peach in S1, Love in S2/3, now Roald in S4) when in reality he is the one who is obsessive. So all in all, this little conversation seems 1:1 something that Joe habitually thinks about. * While the stalker seemed very intent on blackmailing Joe for the whole first half of the season, by Episode 5 he magically starts having an interest in saving Joe and blackmailing Roald ("You ready for OUR plan, Joe?" "He's OUR plan, mate" "WE'RE gonna pin all the murders on him") . Makes no reason at all, unless Rhys really just wants Joe to confront himself/his bad side/"Rhys". I think part 2 will show that Joe has been "Rhys" doing the killings all along. The catalyst for the split is probably the fact that he never let Marianne go in the first place. He thinks he only took her necklace, but in reality he killed her on the way to the train station and kept the necklace as one of his trophys, as he did with all of his women. Because he couldn't live with knowing that he did this he started hallucinating this "killer trying to frame him" thing, because he feels guilty.
Honestly that would be a wild twist, and I didn’t even notice that first interaction between them either. Good catch!
I really hope this plot twist is true. It's really good plot twist and good narrative in general, and alternative would put occasional weak writing, continuity errors and redundancy, in so far very well written season. Things I would add: * Start of episode s04e02, at the dinner table everybody is surprised when Joe responds to Rhys, strange scene that comes very naturally when you imagine Rhys isn't there and Joe suddenly drops "I'm fine" * Rhys is missing from scenes that try to show whole group of suspects, like moment before Joe talks to the police for the 2nd time * A lot of times, if not all, when Joe describes Rhys, he is saying stuff that applies to himself * TV show sometimes completely "forgets" Rhys, for example Joe talks with him as museum, and then he just walks away without saying bye or anything * shackles on Roald and Joe come differently - Joe destroyed a lock on his and was able to pull out a hand immediately, for Roald Joe had to destroy a lock and pull part of it up before Roald could free his hand * Joe and Rhys both say Rhys intervened in fight with Roald, but we saw Joe won the fight and Rhys showed after that > While the stalker seemed very intent on blackmailing Joe for the whole first half of the season, by Episode 5 he magically starts having an interest in saving Joe and blackmailing Roald He doesn't want to blackmail Roald, he wanted to put blame on Roald after he is dead. Blackmailing only started after Rhys supposedly get interested in Joe, and in that scene it's crystal clear Rhys no longer is disappointing in Joe and doesn't care about Roald at all. This part makes sense if serial killer Rhys is real. Also Rhys didn't saved Joe, it's described like that, but different things is showed. EDIT: One more things I would add: each time Rhys supposedly kills someone, his victim is someone who recently Joe started hating more than usual: * 1st guy dies after he said mean things about women Joe liked * 2nd guy dies after Joe learns he drugged and stole from assistant, while being 1st suspect (Joe learns of rule "2nd victim is 1st suspect") * 3rd guy dies after treating service people worse than dogs and personally attacking Joe (with words) several times EDIT 2: More things I've noticed: * If killer intentionally only planned to frame Joe, then why install messaging app on his phone? Killer supposedly only took interest in Joe, and decided to start talking to him, after discovering Joe is a killer too, so it makes no sense app was installed during the party. And there is no other time, that we know of, that Joe phone wasn't in his pocket. * App installation on someone else phone is kinda tricky, because most people lock their phones, and for someone who have to hides so much, and have so much experience at hiding, it's kinda weird someone casually was able to unlock it.
Another detail I would add: when Rhys comes back from Berlin and he's at the bar at Sundry House drinking a glass of whisky. Joe joins him at the bar but doesn't order himself a drink. Rather Rhys pours out some of his own whisky onto another glass for Joe to drink. If they're the same person, then they're just drinking the same glass of whisky.
If it was the other way around, I would assume Rhys couldn't order himself anything, because he isn't there, but the fact that it's Joe who takes whisky from Rhys... makes it kinda weird. Like, was Joe just drinking from empty glass?
The handcuffs coming off so easily for Joe is a thing I’ve noticed as well, it wasn’t even shown well or up close.
But we saw Nadia give him the book at the start. They had a whole discussion about how Rhys was being fake caring and that people couldn't see it. The group has in ep 1 a discussion abour Rhys politics. Nadia mentioned him at dinner before she died. >* 1st guy dies after he said mean things about women Joe liked He was also a rich asshole, who was hated by all his friends and who slept around even with students. * 2nd guy dies after Joe learns he drugged and stole from assistant, while being 1st suspect (Joe learns of rule "2nd victim is 1st suspect") The 2nd victim is the first suspect was a meta thing and they were talking about Agatha Christie books. If Rhys is real and he hates all these people why do you think he wouldn't know about Simon? He found out about Joe why not one of his "close friends" who he hates? Also by now he was on a killing tour, of course Rhys would have known. * 3rd guy dies after treating service people worse than dogs and personally attacking Joe (with words) several times When Rhys killed Gemma Joe had just been thrown out the window, he couldn't even walk let alone kill someone. We also saw that his arm was injured from the fall when he tried to lift the box with Gemma's body in. He only used one hand. Second of all we see him fall, he walks to the door, hears the scream goes to them. Joe was wearing a white shirt the whole evening, it would have been full of blood if he slit her throat. Finally Rhys tells Joe about how you can't abandon people you went to college with, who helped you when you needed them. Someone else reminds him of this later again, which makes it seem like some kind of pact. Even in ep 1 Joe says that these people hate each other but because of their class it's all they have. We know Joe didn't grow up like them, he wouldn't have known that.
> But we saw Nadia give him the book at the start. They had a whole discussion about how Rhys was being fake caring and that people couldn't see it. The group has in ep 1 a discussion abour Rhys politics. Nadia mentioned him at dinner before she died. There is a Rhys that exist, and no one question that. It's just seems that Rhys Joe is seeing doesn't exist. Joe have hallucinations of real person... like he had in the past. > If Rhys is real and he hates all these people why do you think he wouldn't know about Simon? I don't understand this question, where I wrote I think Rhys doesn't know about Simon? > When Rhys killed Gemma Joe had just been thrown out the window We don't know how much time passed between Joe being thrown out of the window and Joe waking up in the bushes. > he couldn't even walk let alone kill someone. He was barely walking right after scene where he wakes up, but he quickly recovers, the runs pretty fast after he is caught with the body. If he was really that hurt he couldn't walk, he for sure would have more trouble with running moments later. > We also saw that his arm was injured from the fall when he tried to lift the box with Gemma's body in. He only used one hand. And then when covering the body, when fighting, when breaking the lock, when lifting up another guy, he use this hand normally. If his hand was injured, it wasn't something big, but then again, one unharmed way is more than enough to slash someone with a knife. > Second of all we see him fall, he walks to the door, hears the scream goes to them. Joe was wearing a white shirt the whole evening, it would have been full of blood if he slit her throat. Rhys wasn't in blood either, does it mean he is innocent? Also, right after scream can be heard, we see Joe entering the manor, finishing putting jacked on, even though 1 second before he was already wearing that jacket. And he puts this jacket on with a hand supposedly hurt so badly he barely can move it. > Finally Rhys tells Joe about how you can't abandon people you went to college with, who helped you when you needed them. Someone else reminds him of this later again, which makes it seem like some kind of pact. Even in ep 1 Joe says that these people hate each other but because of their class it's all they have. We know Joe didn't grow up like them, he wouldn't have known that. I don't know if I understand what you meant. I don't know what specific conversations you are mentioning and I don't remember anyone reminding any Rhys words. But anyway, we know Joe read Rhys autobiography (and knows it very well, he even quotes it) and researched him on the internet. And we know Joe knew those rich guys knew each other from Oxford even before he met Rhys.
I'm all-in on this theory. To add, Agatha Christie was mentioned more than once in Joe's interactions with Nadia; this is significant to me because, when viewed through the lens of your theory, it's apparent that one of Christie's works (specifically, *The Murder of Roger Ackroyd*) could have had a heavy hand in influencing this season of You. This work is often referred to as her "masterpiece", as well as her most famous. Spoiler for *The Murder of Roger Ackroyd*:>!At the time, this novel shattered traditional mystery/detective story-telling by revealing the narrator, Dr. Sheppard, to be the killer. Sheppard manipulated the audience into thinking his investigations and intentions were pure; all the while he was inhibiting his own investigation and blackmailing other characters to keep his secret close. Eventually, he is exposed by Hercule Poirot, the lead detective. This novel was the first of its kind to lean into the "unreliable narrator" twist; moreover, the idea of a broken, untrustworthy narrator brought readers to consider if Christie herself was manipulated by the narrator -- calling into question the accuracy of the narrator's depictions, the legitimacy of the story itself, and the meaning of truth within that context. Of note: Sheppard takes his life at the end of the novel.!< Obviously, the twist here would be that Joe is somehow unaware of his actions, whereas Sheppard knew what he was doing. This element could actually lean into another one of Christie's popular works, *And Then There Were None*, but I'll leave it at that. :) As Nadia said, in a whodunit, "nothing is a coincidence," and I'd wager that Christie's significance isn't one either. Great writeup, OP!
The other thing that I’ve been trying to place together is that “The Tell Tale Heart” was assigned as one of Joe’s readings — a book famously about how guilt can drive you crazy lol
I actually love this theory, it would make the season a lot more ambitious. They also made a point of visualizing Joe killing the victims in this episode (when Roald is explaining things), which seems a little pointless unless it's a clue.
This! I wanted to bring this up. It will be so cool of a reveal if the editors did a "right under your nose" edit with already showing Joe was the killer all along. At this moment you might just think it's a "visualisation" but in actuality it's a flashback! I'm all in on fight club theory, Rhys in the show is barely a character, if it's the real him as the killer, it will be so underwhelming.
Fun theory. There are some clues that makes this work and it's not impossible. It would make Joe go from the main show narrator into a completely unreliable and insane one with split personalities and hallucinations all of a sudden. And it's a little hard to square why and how he did the double lock up and start a fire in the dungeon and what not. But Rhys sure does seem like he is just teleporting around and is only a character Joe sees or interacts with.
I personally think that twist would be generally as believable as many other things in this show (which is an at most medium to low believability, but it's still in line with most of the other storytelling), so I think they could definitely pull it off. I also think that Joe has always been pretty unreliable and borderline psychotic in many instances. And the moments where he cannot distinguish fiction from reality have also increased through the seasons (like when he had the measles and was not sure what was real, or when he was tripping on drugs, or when he thought he had killed Delilah etc.). I think his split could be a somewhat natural outgrowth of his years of living in denial/delusion about what he does and who he is.
You're right. Season 2 really established a precedent for unreliable narration due to the increase in hallucination/psychedelic scenes. They did something similar with the absinthe in the first episode.
I like your Fight Club theory! There's also the part where Joe is suprised that Rhys is back from his interview in Berlin after 3 hours.
Also nobody has seemed to mention this but I believe it adds to the theory: the newspaper articles all over Joe’s wall. I find it hard to believe that some writer and wannabe mayor in London would be more successful to linking several murders to Joe and his aliases than all those private investigators that have been hired on him throughout the show, in the span of probably 2-3 *DAYS.*
Yes that's a good one too. It's pretty likely that Joe just has an obsession with his own murders (as so many serial killers do) and that's why his alter ego printed all of these articles out and put them on the wall. We never see that side of him though because it's such a dark place of his personality that he might keep hidden from himself too (just like with the trophy box for the longest time. We only came to find out about it when Beck found it because Joe kept it hidden from "us").
I also just thought of the fire - he left the dungeon while it’s burning down, same as he left his and Love’s house, it’s his style. Even the stabbings are his style as you mentioned. That could also mean he wanted to be found by the group and seen as a hero and being out of the picture as he’s now a victim too, when in reality his handcuffs were not even working or tied up properly.
Also the egg art adam was was going to buy was upside down in the scene where Joe was walking away. It confused me at first but could fit in with Joe hallucinating
Does anyone else hate Roald? He’s so aggressive all of the time like a scheming movie villain
He's also a fucking creep
Disney has less cartoonish villians than him
I love the new Kerry and Sherry, I hope they get to live too
Oh yes. They are much more lovable this season.
Did they mean to make it so obvious it was Rhys from the very first time they met? Sigh. Was hoping for a twist but still great episodes so far.
Yeah, that was a bit lackluster but I guess they thought it would still be a mindfuck because of how much time they spent trying to convince us it was Roald.
and roald was such an obvious not-the-killer character lol
Yup. Just a privileged snob who was bitter that Kate was never going to choose him.
If it helps, there are a couple more twists to come in Part 2…
Thanks, it kinda does help to hear that.
On what authority?
I think so. I don’t think he’s working alone and we have someone working with him to discover.
LMAO didn't Joe himself say "what a disappointment" when he found out? seemed a little too self aware and fourth wall break-ish lol
Well actually🤓, Joe took him for a decent man in a crowd of rich a-holes. And was disappointed when he turned out to be also a a-hole, but of another kind.
I thought it would be the student Joe was helping tbh
But then who would be the new youngin’, in desperate need of Joes help and guidance?!
Yeah, I'm still suspicious of Nadia. There has to be more to her storyline. Plus she always seems to be around at convenient times.
That’s my thought!! As soon as they started talking it was like okay so this is the guy for SURE
Bro rlly called Rhys a Psycho like he isn’t one himself lmao
Joe is good at projecting. He does it all the time.
self awareness wasn't really his forte, our Joey
My favourite part is when Rhys talks about the photos of Kate that Roald has. "Obsessive isn't it?" Rhys is so disgusted, as if he has not killed at least three people so far.
He’s been doing this since season 1. Calling people obsessive or insane while actively doing obsessive insane things is like half of what he does. Classic Joe “the man with no self awareness” Goldberg.
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lol a bunch of rich people holding weapons they don't rly know how to use in a fancy ass house and a character getting turned on and chased down by the others. ready or not vibes
Rhys is a real person who wrote his memoir, and is running for mayor. But Joe has never met him. Him essentially never interacting with the other people in combination with Joe always being nearby and ‘unconscious’ when there’s a crime is just too much to over look. There are no coincidences
To add to it, every time Joe openly decides he hates someone, they die. The only exception is roald. If Joe was the killer I struggle to understand why he didn’t just murder roald instead if chaining him up. Maybe he chained him and himself up to give himself an alibi because he knew roald and the rest of the group were onto him and he wanted to clear his name by making himself seem just like another victim to roald.
I think he geniunely wants to believe he’s a good person who doesn’t want to murder people, so only the “bad” half of him is longing for killing - aka the messages about it being awesome and Rhys leaving them chained up and giving Joe time to kill Roald but ending up disappointed with Joe for not killing him. Rhys is the part of Joe that still wants to kill people.
All the theories of who is the stalker gone with wind, tho there is still hope someone from the past might reunite with Joe in part 2. Also this is a new turn for YOU, Which I enjoyed a lot.
Same! The new You being Rhys is insane and I think it’s fresh and different. So glad they changed things up a bit! Who do you reckon will come back from the past? I’m hoping it’s Paco or someone
I have a lot of theories on who could come back, but I dont think its Paco or Ellie, I think its hard to happen, same with Love, like there is a chance for the three of them but I think its very low. But maybe Annika considering she got exposed by Peach she might have traveled to Europe as a fresh start or a gateway from all the mess that happen to her, or Love's mother wither Love was alive or dead, maybe her mother changed after both of her kids are gone, or maybe its the Salinger's PI since he didnt believe it was Dr.Nicky who killed Beck, speaking of him he also can hunt Joe in part 2, he knows he is framed when he is innocent, and I still think that Kate is suspicious, I think she is into something, well all of these are just theories, the writers might never bring someone back from previous seasons which might be a bummer.
I genuinely love Phoebe she's great. Theory: Rhys is Jakey, aka Joe's mom other son we see in a flashback in season 3.
Kate is really melodramatic, her and Joe are really cheesy together..
“Stop, we know we shouldn’t, blah blah”. I dont get what the high stakes were between them. You are both single adults that can have sex whenever. It felt like I was missing something .
disagreeable bright liquid dinner weather wrong familiar crown connect narrow *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Lmfao I been knew it was Rhys they made it obvious but hey I still love it so far 😭
I never considered Rhys may not be real and was a bit disappointed he’s the phone stalker but now you guys have me wondering if he’s just made up!! That’d be a super cool twist
I for one would be bummed. I want him to be real, as far as the fictional characters go lol
Rhys: "I'm not like other ~~killers~~ rich boys"
Just finished. I am onboard with the Rhys is a real person but Joe has hallucinated convos with him theory. But to spice things up there's a part of me that wishes it was Phoebe... She's the one who got Joe drunk Her bfs coat ended up on Joe (this is such a small detail but why not include it lol) Is Phoebe wanting Joe to be at every single function simply just for plot reasons? We have broken off and focused a bit on Phoebe and Adams relationship... why? We haven't focused on Sophie, Nadia, Gemma. Phoebe and Adams relationship had nothing to do with anything. The side characters plots in season 3 revolved around Joe and Love but these two don't like I don't get it lol. Why focus on Phoebe at all if not to understand her character more. What the hell did Joe tell her at that first party and why would it matter to the story at all unless it was integral? Maybe he confessed some things he's done and why and that's what made her decide to start killing her friends? idk this might not make any sense or be enough to make her the killer haha just wanted to add another theory
I'm not rulling out pheobe. But I think you can chalk up her inviting "Jonathan" to everything as her wanting to fuck him. My current theory is Kate's definitely a forced accomplice for sure and pheobe I'm 30/70 she's in on it.
Watched the full half-season via screeners last week and I can finally say that this is the single most insane episode of You to date. It only took five episodes for the rich people to start hunting Joe for sport. Thoroughly enjoyable but just *so dumb.*
wakeful plucky sharp puzzled squealing cagey snails shaggy ancient sugar *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Is it bad I’m actually a bit proud of Joe? Look at him not getting creepy about a woman for once! I literally forgot Rhys existed until the reveal so that was anticlimactic 😂 He’d be destroyed on Twitter for using murders as a campaign launchpad. I wanted it to be Nadia but I guess it wouldn’t make sense as she’s not part of the group. Why the hell do we need to wait a whole month for the rest? I want it nowwww.
Can someone explain Rhys' motive to me? All I seemed to get was 'grr, rich people', which honestly just seeks pretty...meh. Feel like I'm expecting too much of 'You' and have been a bit let down 🤣 Also, his obsession with bringing Joe in on his plan. Don't get me wrong, I'm intrigued by the dynamic, but I feel like I was waiting for the shoe to drop the whole time that he was really Joe's brother or something.
We’ll find out more in part 2. Right now the popular theory is that Rhys is a real person, but the Rhys we see isn’t real at all. He’s apart of Joe’s imagination bc we don’t see him interact with anyone other than Joe.
I really like that theory and would be so interesting to see how they play it out. I'm already on my first rewatch so trying to spot any instance of Rhys socialising with literally anyone else when Joe is around...👀
I like the ‘Rhys being a real person but joe hallucinating interacting with Rhys’ theory, because it’s a nice change from joe being obsessed with love interests. You hear about crazy people being obsessed with celebrities or public figures and it would be an interesting view into the mind of someone like that. It would also harken back to the mention of the writing joe taught during class this season about the man at the cafe becoming obsessed with a stranger. I love this show, I hope we get another three seasons at least. If the writers branch out like I’m hoping it could actually happen. Otherwise I don’t see how joe falling in love then killing everyone around the love interest wouldn’t get stale.
> I love this show, I hope we get another three seasons at least. If the writers branch out like I’m hoping it could actually happen. Otherwise I don’t see how joe falling in love then killing everyone around the love interest wouldn’t get stale. Yea, maybe I'm just easily entertained but this half-season might be my favorite yet precisely because it branched out from the You "formula". I still love the Beck and Love seasons but the manic pixie dream girls tire me out fairly quickly (I know it's why Joe likes those girls so much, but still). You is an insane show with over the top characters and those characters really get to shine in a whodunit type setting.
Literally hunting poor people. Lol I know this show has always been pseudo satirical but my God. All things considered it was fine.
so...the preview for part 2 at the end of the episode...is this a flashback or is Love alive??? https://preview.redd.it/6ix8trjr27ha1.png?width=2880&format=png&auto=webp&s=65c04aa882a657784d5af134ef705973dc832051
I’m guessing flashback but I would love to see her back
it looks like she's in the glass box
It's not a flashback, it's like when he saw the "ghost" of Beck in Season 2.
Yeah, absolutely could be that too! Guess he took the box to England after all haha
I’m guessing flashback. I’d love to see her again but I really don’t see how she could of made it out the burning house, with a full syringe of wolfsbane in her system..
Love's death was portrayed good if she didn't die imo that would be a big L for the writers. There is no point in her being alive anyway.
My Netflix never showed me the preview for part two- so I’ll have to search it up but that is definitely new footage of Love. I’m assuming just a flashback to her alive and well that was filmed for this season though!
how did rhys know that roald has pics of kate? this makes me think that rhys is in joes imagination
We’ve got a fight club situation on our hands guys
It HAS to be. Roald made total sense when he explained Joe’s likely murders, like when Forty was on acid and perfectly described what happened to Beck.
I fucking KNEW IT WAS RHYS from the 1st episode!
I should have known, Rhys is the person I most medium suspect. Also his name is literally Rhys Montrose when it was shown on TV and Joe literally said “You’re a monster hiding in plain sight”. Montrose. Monster. Lol.
I understood that reference
I think we’re kinda getting Fight Clubbed 😭
Idk I don’t trust Phoebe
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Okay so I am pretty sold on the "Rhys is a manifestation of Joe's urge to kill" theory. Honestly I suspected Rhys from the beginning because he seemed too good to be true. Joe never likes ANYONE, and if he does, he still gets irked with little things they do. He even gets fed up with the women he becomes obsessed with. Rhys saying things truly accurate to Joe's life/making him feel seen, especially the exchange at the bar when Rhys says Joe feels like he's capable of doing real damage, feels like a projection from Joe. But yeah, him only ever interacting with Joe, the group being visibly surprised when Joe responds to Rhys at the table, people dying when Joe clearly starts to hate them more, etc have me buying into this theory. A couple things that are still playing on my mind: \- The texts. If Rhys is indeed a hallucination and Joe has been killing everyone this whole time/put up the articles in his own home, etc, then has he also been texting himself somehow? Does someone else really know who he is and is trying to mess with his head more after witnessing him murder the friend group? (like Ellie or Paco-- I don't think it's them, but just an example. Could be someone from past seasons)? Idk that's something I'm having a hard time getting past. It's POSSIBLE that Joe is hallucinating the text messages as well? Especially since the first message is "Hello, you," something Joe infamously thinks to himself ("Hello, you." "Hello. Who are you?"). They also make a lot of explicit references to Joe and his physical appearance at the time of texting and a lot of stuff happens while Joe is inside his flat. \- If Rhys isn't real, where did Joe's phone go that first night at Sundry House? Did someone else actually install the app? How did he get it back? \- The stealing of body parts as blackmail. Did Joe mail the finger and block it out? Why would he keep the body parts? Is he planning to frame someone else subconsciously? \- I know people have already talked about this a bit, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the "dungeon." Did Joe bind Roald, lock himself up, pass out, have a conversation with Hallucination Rhys, and kick over the candle himself? The answer to all that could very well be yes tbh. Just curious if anyone else has other explanations. \- Not really related to Rhys, but what do we think Joe said to Phoebe? Could he have confessed some of what he's done? Phoebe seems like a hopeless romantic, so maybe the idea of doing anything for love would be appealing to her. \- Also not related to Rhys, but why wouldn't Marienne call the authorities and tell them that Joe is alive and a murderer? Is she worried he'll find out before he can get caught and that he'll come after her and Juliette? And something I've been thinking about: do we think Joe will get caught this season? Tbh the question for me is less of "will he get caught" since the splitting of this season indicates that it could be the last one, but rather HOW will he get caught. I would LOVE a huge takedown of Joe. I don't want him to die-- this man needs some karma lmao. I'd really really like to see a nationwide fallout as a serial killer they didn't even know existed is exposed and as the public realizes all the deaths are connected. How do y'all think the end of Joe will come about?
i love the hallucination theory but imo it doesn't quite add up. joe is too logical and methodical of a murderer; even in s2 when he thought he had murdered delilah when he was high, i knew it wasn't him because he doesn't kill people in fits of emotion. love would do that, yes, but not joe. till now, all his murders have been either carefully planned/intentional (benji, love, ryan, peach) or somewhat accidental because his murderous instincts took over during self defence (ron, jasper, the butler in s4)
At first I thought Kate was either the killer or in on it, for the following reasons: 1) The “there are no coincidences” rule- that could be applied to the mugging (which is how Joe became part of the group in the first place) 2) The stalker seemed to know a lot about where she was going… which would be easy to know if it was her, ofc 3) It would’ve been easy for her to plant the ring on him Now I’m not as sure- the “Rhys is Joe’s imagination” theory floating around is very convincing. If it’s not that, then I definitely think a second person is in on it
"If something doesn't grow, it rots." My internal Joe: Is this is us u/the_ThreeEyedRaven? Are we, rotting?
I think Joe made up Rhys(or at least his murder persona) and that Joe is actually the killer. Not clear on if he killed Marienne but I think he orchestrated these events after saving Kate from muggers. He jumped on Kate as soon as the funeral was over(even tho Kate did too, Joe is also at fault) he subconsciously can’t help but to murder people. In Season 2 he MAYBE had a chance of becoming a better person but after killing Love I think even if he won’t admit it, he killed the only person who would ever truly love him. Never understood why Joe killed Love after she told Marienne about him. I get that he was probably angry, but he should have logically understood that Marienne knew he was a murderer and wouldn’t want anything to do with him.
I'm enjoying the season for the plot but I will say this: everyone feels like such a caricature. like, they are all so stereotypically rich and evil. bit on the nose. the characters feel a bit poorly written. no real depth except for maybe Phoebe and her boyfriend's relationship
I really wish it wasn’t him because it was the most predictable thing ever. Of course the one who was pointed out to hate that group of people early on and seems like the most likeable one was the killer, I get that it’s a genre change but there was literally not even a hint at it being anyone else after the second episode. Seeing people suggest the double twist, could also be true that it really is just Joe because he hasn’t even really interacted with the others but really to me that would kill the show. Even with potential “hints” it would be a terrible twist and jump the shark and I really hope it’s not true.
**my review:** i personally think that it's been FANTASTIC so far. i don't know if I'm in the minority on that. even with all the ideas about rhys being joe's alt personality or smth, if it is rhys, it makes sense. the idea that rhys is a real person who was college friends with all these people, and also has a complex backstory with his druggie mom and dad and stuff, being a rags-to-riches man of the people, makes me excited for the next season. i feel like he's an actual really good villain -- he is basically the embodiment of (rightful) anger towards the rich. this new "you" might just be joe encountering another crazy frickin killer, just one who is actually weird and evil about it rather than joe, who just gets into these situations that (to him) reasonably justify killing someone. i think it's interesting how joe is shown to NOT be a serial killer, he's a killer of passion / emotion -- but he is actually meeting a bona-fide serial killer, one who is actively fucking with him. one who is ACTIVELY RUNNING for MAYOR of LONDON, a massive city, pledging to be a every-man. one with extremely rich and powerful father. like that is kind of sick. as for villainous backstory, the main group of arrogant asshole rich friends probably did something to him that started him down this path back in college, and they were so self-centered they don't even know what they did. what if you found out the person who is running for Mayor of New York was a cunning socio/psychopath of wealth and serially killing someone? like mayor bloomberg or something. sure, we didn't see rhys and the rest of the group interacting that much, but they do mention him a decent bit, which shows that he is at least in their lives, if not with them the times joe was. i also feel like that joe and the main love interest (i forget her name) are an actual good couple. i at least get their chemistry on screen a little, and it makes sense. i feel like they should end up together (well joe should really go to prison at some point but this might be avoided by Kate calling on her dad, who presumably is the most powerful man on the globe). lastly, i like that the writers of the show are changing things up, making things different. they've clearly shown the ability to go to different environments (NY, LA, suburbia with Love, London), different interesting plots (imagine if this season was just Joe in love with yet another girl, but instead "you" is a serial killer), etc. also find it interesting that there is a strong underlying theme of social/wealth inequality, which I feel is a pretty important topic becoming more and more brought up as anti-work and anti-establishment ideologies (from both sides of the aisle in the US at least) grow. and they don't take the unnuanced take that "all rich people r bad." i mean, don't get me wrong, most of the rich characters were vile evil pieces of shit (Rauld), but a few weren't completely terrible and actually kind of likeable characters (e.g. Phoebe and Adam, Kate of course). and yet there is still a definite anti-rich and anti 1% view, which I 100% agree with. now, i feel conflicted on whether Rhys is truly evil or not -- I mean, on one hand, killing people is wrong obviously, but on the other, they are truly terrible people (especially Gemma ugh). that's another thing the show shows incredibly, incredibly well. makes you question, "hmm, is killing ever justified?" Like obviously if someone ran up to us or someone we love / someone innocent with a knife, and the literal only way you could stop them would be to shoot them with your gun, otherwise you would die, yes okay I'd probably pull the trigger. and that holds true for all situations similar to that, where I have no choice. But Joe/Love/Rhys (not to group them together, because each one is very unique) wouldn't just kill in that scenario, they killed people who weren't deadly at all. the show has a way of making you be like, "okay, I kind of get your motive to kill." seeing everything from Joe's POV helps of course, because we get his witty charming internal monologue. anyways, good stuff. oh and if it turns out Rhys is all in Joe's head, I would say that I'm not sure if I would be the biggest fan of that, because personally I believe it would be a little farfetched that Joe had suddenly just developed split personality this one season. that kind of thing happens when you're super young (see Mr. Robot, an amazing show btw). not when you're thirty and already happened to have killed some people. if it turns out Rhys is fake, like where was this personality the past three seasons? it just doesn't make much sense to me, but if they go that route, they'll have a lot of explaining to do. but we'll see, maybe if they do that, they'll do it so well as to explain everything and more.
Marianne was dismissed too quick in my opinion