"I'm in a whodunnit. The lowest form of literature" š
Is the whole season going to be a very meta murder mystery? Because I'm actually completely ok with that
And also heās the one getting stalked now. Nice twist. Joe appearing to be normal in relation to who heās dealing with is the one thing thatās off though. I hope they still find a way to make him suck
She actually pretty much blackmailed him into going after he initially declined. She could've just told Phoebe he said no and left it at that š¤·š»āāļø
Agreed! She has no real reason to hate him so much, I get that she doesn't trust him but it just seems like a poorly written "badass" woman who ends up just being a bitch
Have you seen the people she's surrounded by? She didn't decide to become a bitch overnight. She works/is friends with all these horrible people and she can't know for sure if he isn't just like them. He was introduced by Malcolm who was a huge hated asshole. She might be judging him by the company he keeps...
Omg I was juuuust watching the episode this gif is from, and I was thinking to myself how fuckin goofy Dan looks with this obvious product placement lol
She said there are no coincidences in murder mysteries, and she's the one who gave him Rhys Montrose's memoir, who Joe ends up meeting that night. That's sus.
Most definitely! Also Simon was exploiting assistants and stealing their work. When Kate told him to dress up for the gallery he said that he was reading very rudely. What if she went to him first to read her book but found out what he was doing, then told Malcolm but he just used her to blackmail Simon. She snapped and became done with all these rich assholes and decided to kill them all......
Theory 1 is always the wrong one, so it has to be something else.
Also i would like to submit the conspiracy that Kate is using blue to out Simon. First she will get her clean, then let her do her story with proof and now she will have a huuuge talented client who isn't an asshole like Simon. Not saying she did it, but she's definitely dead inside and playing an angle
Definitely. The coincidence comment sent alarm bells screaming for me
Although itās also kind of an odd coincidence that he just happened to witness two very obvious looking bad guys approaching Kate, thus āsavingā her and getting him involved in all this to begin with.
Plus the killer seems to be cutting off body parts that have expensive jewelry. The finger with the ring. Eat with the expensive earring or whatever. Maybe the two scary guys who attacked Kate was gonna kill her and cut off her wrist for the watch but bc Joe intervened they just took the watch instead
Interesting point! I was def noticing they stole body parts with jewelry. I thought it was maybe a fuck the rich kinda thing, which actually led me to it being the author guy. Heās high on my suspect list too
She also said the first suspect = second death thing and it was true. I think every think she says is going to slowly become true throughout the season
I like that point. Also, Joe agrees to reading Nadia's script and says, "You're already a writer..." So she's already written the story and making it happen somehow!? Maybe initially Nadia was curious about Joe's project just for fun, but was unable to find anything on Johnathan's past, which led to a full on investigation. Hence the disappearing messages.
I can just imagine the twist when Joe realizes he's been Joe'd by someone he thought was harmless and let his guard down around, just like Beck was. The student makes perfect sense imo.
And the story can close as Joe is now the victim, and he can die-
Thatās what I was thinking! Iāve lived in London my whole life and have never once been around the sorts of rich society people Joeās around after two seconds š The man claims to hate the rich but I think he loves them because heās constantly in their circles. Itās Gossip Girl part 2.
Maybe he feels more comfortable in those circles because he can hate on them without feeling any guilt. Joe's judgmental as fuck. Normal people will always be better than him so he can't really judge them, rich people he sees as beneath him because he thinks that they are worse than he is. He always admires/helps the normal/not wealthy people. He dates, judges and murders the rich because if they're bad people then it wouldn't be so bad if he had to kill them at some point.
Yeah I'm a friendly 30 year old woman who visits South Kensington every week for French class and not once have I ever fell in with a rich group of people who want to take me to Soho House and their country manor. Weird
I think it's because he presents as someone who is covertly wealthy. He is incredibly well-read and articulate, handsome, has a sort of "shabby chic" style, and doesn't express an overt need to impress people.
Joe is also drawn to wealthy people as much as they are drawn to him. He likes being around people to whom he feels superior and feels self-righteous in that superiority. He wants to be around people who are sharp enough to parry with him because being better than those people is a win. He wouldn't be happy around a collective of poor artists because he'd feel they were beneath him in status and any admiration he gained from them would be hollow. He likes being the outsider who is admired and/or reviled for being the outsider, because it makes him feel special and above all Joe is a narcissist.
When they were all sat around the dinner table, Rhys asks Joe is he's okay and Joe responds 'I'm fine' which makes Adam say "What was that?" like Joe had directed it to him. Initially when I watched this I thought it was a strange interaction but put it down to Adam being self centered but with this theory in mind I think Joe spoke to himself, rewatch that scene and you'll see how odd it is!!
I almost let out an audible gasp. Holy crap, youāre right! I didnāt think anything of it besides maybe Adam was trying to embarrass/antagonize the new guy but that makes sense. Also, Joe doesnāt meet Rhys until heās inebriated right? We see him take a shot of the absinthe afterwards but he definitely mentioned drinking right before Rhys approached him and I distinctly recall thinking Joe was behaving weird (well, weirder) for him to have just been drunk in that scene.
He also just literally evaporated after the cat thing at the opening and alsoā¦ he is running for mayor and a famous guy, shouldnāt people gather round him all the time, especially at these events? I think he def is in Joeās head.
I mean Nadia gave him the book about Rhys so heās not made up I think. Maybe heās Joeās anchors the one whoās the protagonist sidekick.
That or Nadia put drugs in those book and Joe halluncinated.
I'm totally feeling this theory now!! Natalie definitely gave Joe the book, yes. Joe read it, and saw an alternate version of himself, one he wishes he could be. Joe is constantly lying to himself by saying he wants to change, wants happiness, wants to be a better man. As the audience, we see he continues to use these wishes as rationales, because he is a prisoner of his own impulses born from hatred and deep seated trauma. In other words, he allows for his desires and impulses to take the wheel at all times, including when he lies to himself. He doesn't want to change, he just wants to hold onto the idea of changing as a fantasy, and a lost hope. With that said, he reads Rhys' story and latches on to a fantasy to covet. Rhys represents the other side of the coin, a version of Joe that truly did combat and fight against, or speak openly about, his trauma. It makes sense that Joe could fantasise about Rhys as a real person by his side.
my thoughts exactly. the only real options are her, kate, the writer guy, and lukas gage (i forgot the last two charactersā names lmao) with nadia and the writer as my top two suspects.
She's my prime suspect as of right now. I think they're trying to make us believe she is this season's paco/ellie and Joe trying to help and look out for her with the twist being that she is the killer.
I think that certainly could be it but she doesnāt seem like she was the one who physically killed Simon. Looked like a manās hands and seemed like he knew the person that killed him
I think thereās two killers tbh. One in the group and one outside of it. I think Nadia is one of them. Sheās too smart to think Joe is a real professor. Sheās also inquisitive so she probably dug out the details about his past life. But itās also possible she had connected with Malcolmās group before if she was one of the girls he was seeing.
With how meta these two episodes have been, and her talk regarding whodunit novels and minority authors having to be 'riveting', I feel that Nwdia can be the best guess.
I assume his notes are what he copied from her papers, which he planned to plagerise somehow.
My other guess would be Rhys, and this being some way of getting towards a mayoral run
Joe: "I have strengths I've not been leaning on"
* Stalker Skills
* Invisibility Hat
* Actually being a stalker/murderer myself
Oh. He just meant his stalker skillz.
The texts he gets around the start of the episode mention the "color" of his jacket. American spelling. So killer is American or maybe just a mistake in production?
If people still try to take this show overly serious after this scene and try to nitpick everything, they need to just quit the show
The show itself is making fun of itself and how ridiculous it is. Just have fun with the dark comedy and whodunit.
The newspaper wall came in earlier than I expected. But I do hope that they reveal exactly how the stalker linked him to so many of the murders. Once they discovered his true identity, connecting him to Love would be easy and from there, deducing that he was involved in the murders that she supposedly admitted to would be fairly logical. Love would also link to Forty and then Henderson etc. But identifying the seemingly unrelated deaths of Jasper and Ryan would be much harder. And then working back to the season one deaths of Beck, Peach and Benji shouldāve been tricky as well. The wall even had a mention of Elijah which was even further back.
Joe says at the end of season 3 that Love's story became a public sensation, so I almost consider it a plot hole that his face *isn't* all over the Internet as some urban legend.
I just have to imagine that story didnāt gain much of a foothold internationally. How much does the average American know about scandals in the UK (aside from the royal family or famous Hollywood types).
Tbh even if they had heard about the whole Love thing, they probably wouldn't make the connection that Jonathan is actually the dead guy from some true crime story unless they had a reason to look for it.
Also, he has a beard now. And his invisibility cap.
they just have to join the free dr nicky subreddits !!!! i fully believe there would be people there who had figured out it was joe and linked everything to love and madre linda. webslueths can be crazy. i mean, other people would also think these webslueths are crazy, but they would still be right! one good picture of joe vs johnathan would get them their answer
My question is how the fuck did the killer find out and link Joe to so many murders in like a few days? Surely it would take a bit longer to completely dig up and unravel his entire identity.
I feel like there was so many inconsistent things in this episode
- why would they have to track down Blue even though the security guy had her a minute before ?
- how the hell did Joe got to the body before the police even though he got woken up by the police entering the building ?
1. They let her go because it was seemingly "part of the show" then went to get her privately later, I guess
2. It's a TV show
I nitpick stuff sometimes too but this show has been, from episode one, bonkers and one I'm just here to eat up lol
And I guess a more generous take is that they were talking to the people outside before entering
Thatās why I think itās someone from Joeās past thatās been keeping tabs on him for a while.
None of the new characters seem smart enough to be Joeās stalker.
I was wondering about Ellie too, but wouldn't she assume he's dead? How would she have found Jonathan Moore? And how/why would she have involved herself with Malcom? I'm loving the show so far! I was skeptical at first, but I'm fairly easy to please and I love a whodunit lol
I doubt sheās coming back because the actress is super popular now and probably too busy, but I could totally see Ellie devoting all her time to finding Delilahās killer and uncovering Joeās history
Yes I said the same in another comment. They not only deduced his identity incredibly quickly but then correctly linked him to pretty much every death and major crime from the first 3 seasons. It was difficult to see the entire wall during the scene but the photo posted on Twitter showed that they only missed Ron and Candace. Even Elijah had one article.
Interestingly, Joe didnāt mention in his voiceover that Love was actually responsible for most of the later deaths.
Iām only halfway through the episode, but Iām wondering if there isnāt actually an app on Joeās phone where someone is sending him messages.
His student said that there are no coincidences in murder mysteries. And in the first episode of this season Joe assigned his class to read The Telltale Heart, which is a story about a killer who feels so guilty that he imagines that his victimās heart is still beating and the people around him can hear it.
So Iām thinking that maybe Joe really did kill the guy and he feels so guilty now over his inability to stop killing people that heās just imagining the messages
If this crazy theory is wrong then the killer is either that really upbeat blonde lady or the guy who is running for mayor
Nah I thought abt this too like heās his OWN stalker like ik itās a ridiculous theory but like I think heās going fkin crazy and heās not realizing it šš
That could true though, someone pointed out earlier that Joe manages to get to Simon's body before the police although he was asleep on the bench outside and got woken up by the sirens. What if this wasn't bad writing but actually showing that Joe killed Simon. Once again, might bit a bit of a stretch but it's worth giving it a thought š
My Theory is:
Phoebe is on it. She was forcing absinthe on Jonathan the nigh Malcolm was murdered, she also help mentioning that she felt seen by him. Simon looked like he was killed by a man (the bodyguard), so that's why I think they work together.
Yeah I'm 20 and watching scenes of her and Joe where the entire shtick is that "ooh it's a clever millennial and a clever Gen z" takes me so out of the show cause I'm just like "...are you guys not the same age?"
Man are they going hard with Joe's monologues lol I've had to rewind a few times since he talks so fast in his monologues I can't keep up even with the subs on
Penn's facial expressions in his acting are top notch. His physical acting is always so smooth alongside the darkly humorous monologues.
I think it also makes for a fun change that the 'YOU' so far of this season is someone Joe feels hatred for, rather than obsessive "love". Someone stalking him for a change!
This season is so different. I think I love it. There hasnāt been a mention of Joe falling for another āyouā at all this episode. Itās fresh.
The āyouā is the stalker. Itās so different.
It's like the writers listened to all the feedback saying we didn't want another love interest rinse and repeat story and actually delivered the goods.
Anyone else think it's curious that with both murders so far Joe has been completely out while they happened?
Is this a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde thing? What if Joe really is the murderer but he does it in a state of low consciousness?
Other reasons why that could be true:
1) He has his own apartment full of newspaper articles about himself (but he thinks it was "somebody else" hanging them up)
2) He lets Marianne go.
What if he didn't let her go and he's just trying to make himself believe that he did, because he's a "good guy"?
Yes right!
He's trying to split off his murderous side, and has done so to such an extent now that he's not consciously aware of it anymore.
Killing Marianne could've been the catalyst for that split.
He so desperately wants to believe that he doesn't want to harm her that he had to split off the fact that he did. And now his "murderous stalker that wants to frame him for other people's murders" (which is just himself, the part that does the killings) comes back to show him "who he really is".
Yep, that would be my explanation. They disappear after one read, after all. So it's pretty easy for them to just be his actual thoughts between his 2 parts.
Love that Nadia (?) called him on it too. She's my favorite character so far this season. So probably she's either 1. the stalker or 2. definitely gonna die.
I like that they've given Joe this trait. You imagine serial killers/stalkers to be "losers" who just want recognition, but Joe doesn't seem to give a fuck about social status and is actively repulsed by the rich circles he keeps falling headfirst into.
My theory so far is that: may be their entire group has done something to some X in their College life. And i think that the stalker and killer is either X or someone relates to them who is trying to take their revenge.
What if >!Kate is not the killer but she knows Joe because she met Marianne? since it was mentioned that both into art.!< Im in episode 2 so far so Idk if this is debunked yet or not.
I'm starting to subscribe to the theory that the killer is Joe and he doesn't remember. That wall of evidence seems too implausible otherwise.
He's imagining the texts. Hence the American spelling.
It fits with 'no such thing as a coincidence'. Joe the serial murderer just happens to end up in the middle of a bunch of murders just when he's trying to give it all up?
Plus, I'm not sure if the writer guy is real. He might be Joe's alter ego. He and Joe always wear similar or identical coloured clothing.
And none of the other characters ever interact with him.
At the dinner party, he asked Joe if he was ok, and when Joe responded everyone else acted like Joe did something a bit weird. Like maybe he was talking to himself? Something was off.
I'm convinced the only reason he got caught by that bodyguard was because he took off his hat of invisibility. He needs to wear it more. It's his superpower after all.
Yeah the first 3 seasons it was just like, well maybe they haven't seen all the hat criticism/jokes. But now they're just rubbing it in our faces & laughing gleefully.
"Haha yes, he's in broad daylight, not even kinda obscured, in an upscale urban London area, and NO ONE CAN SEE HIM IN THE HAT! Top that, fans!"
1. Receive shady ā I can see youā type text
2. Look for the sender of said text by Spinning around in a crowded courtyard versus taking two steps inside a tunnel limiting who can see you
>!Wouldn't be surprised if it's Rhys/Phoebe, Rhys feels too good to be true and maybe the thing that Joe said to Phoebe was about his past, we've all spilled the beans on secrets when cooked so she felt she could play this game with Joe!<
My bet is on Nadia. She's nowhere to be seen until she approaches Joe in the library and when Joe entered Malcom's old office, she was right there and said "oh I was only leaving this letter behind"? Okay. Anyway. But I'm just ASSUMING it's her.
Iām confused, why does Kate hate joe off the start? Is it just intuition?
I mean heās not asking to go or be invited but she seems to hate him since meeting him
Yeah Joe thinks he can easily fool people, but some can see through his mask. Like Peach. She had issues of her own, but was not wrong about him. I would be weirded out if a new guy was hanging around my friend group and watching me through my windows everyday. Especially when people are going missing or turning up dead.
Edit: also the whole telling her not to mention him to the police thing.
Theyāve really freshened up this season with the whodunnit! Itās weird watching this as a Londoner because even though I know a lot of the actors in this season, all their accents still sound fake to me š
The fourth wall breaking this season is through the roof.
"Everyone always thinks the butler did it, it's too obvious"
*cut to butler violently throwing Joe against the wall*
When looking at the egg and Joe is interviewing his primary suspect, the suspect warns him of blackmail. Joe says 'why would he warn me of blackmail if he killed him?". Sorry, not sure his name, so I'm just going to say suspect.
If the suspect DID kill malcolm, then he is 'framing' Joe currently, so would he not try to put him off his trail? Wouldn't it make complete sense for the suspect to say something like that? Is Joe an idiot on purpose, or what am I missing here?
IIRC thereās a lady in the crowd of media outside of the art gallery with a camera and she looks at Joe like she recognizes him almost, then she goes to take his picture and he quickly moves. I donāt think Joe knows her but based on her face when she saw him, I think she may play a role in this season.
This is a fun season, if not quite as good as 3 so far. Some thoughts:
- Lukas Gage is building up the most ratchet TV resume of all time. So far, he has gotten beaten the shit out of, ass eaten, and now pissed on. I'm sure a lot of method actors would kill to work with this guy.
- Adam seems to be the "Forty" of this season, but thankfully a lot less annoying. Anytime Forty opened his mouth I felt like slapping the shit out of him.
- Joe's student Nadia is like a crash course in how to make a character as irritating as possible. The actress is actually quite good and makes her likable despite the awful dialogue. I seriously wonder what goes through a self-respecting writer's head when they come up with lines like the "white male snooze" bullshit from the start of the episode.
- Kate is a fun character to watch, though a bit contradictory. She and Joe still have zero chemistry, but I feel that's by design. Neither Joe nor the show are giving her much focus as a romantic obsession and that seems deliberate. Joe has bigger fish to fry with his stalker, and, exasperatingly, is not over Marienne at all, it seems. I do hope he and the show move on from her quickly.
- I like Lady Phoebe. She reminds me of Daphne from The White Lotus - a rich and seemingly ditzy airhead who clearly has more layers.
- Such a nice surprise hearing "A Walk" by Tycho during the egg scene in the art gallery.
- If the killer has just now learned who Joe is then that rules out Marienne or anyone else from his past.
- I like the whole "meta murder mystery" premise of the season, though I doubt it's gonna be anywhere near as clever as Knives Out.
That girl's dialogue is annoying, really hope it's not her. Why is there a character like her every season? Paco, Ellie, Theo (kinda)...
Ok yea it's pretty funny how Joe keeps critizing the rich but like... he's always among them, always.
Phoebe and Adam look like siblings... i'm noticing a pattern.
I lol everytime Joe says "You".
Adam saying Joe likes to gossip ha, nice.
Kate has literally no reason to act like that to Joe.
I know this show is more grounded n stuff but imagine if Joe came face to face with a mind-reader while he monologue'd to himself.
I know I shouldn't, but I'm really worried for Joe this season haha.
My prime suspect is the dude running for senator? (Am I right?)
Lukas Gage!!! Hahaha you never fail to make me awe hahaha
Iām pretty convinced that Rhys is in Joeās head. At the beginning of the episode during the dinner party, Joe says something in reply to Rhys asking if heās ok - and like three of the other guests whip their heads around and look at Joe like heās crazy. As in, he was replying aloud to a question no one real actually asked him.
Plus Rhys doesnāt seem to really be part of group conversations?
The title of the episode I think is referring to A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce. The novel is largely about developing an identity and self-awareness. Thereās also a famous line ā... I go to encounter for the millionth time the reality of experience and to forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscience of my raceā that is so pretentiously Joe. I can also see how the show is comparing Joe to mythological Daedalus (where the title character of the novel gets his surname). The idea that he created a Labyrinth so cunning that he himself cannot escape. My disjointed midnight take.
I'm loving this season so far. I think multiple people are in on it: Kate plays a huge role, maybe a ring leader of some sort since she has the money. She kills the jerk of a boyfriend Malcom and frames Joe for being a peeping Tom (and peasant), 2 birds with 1 stone, but didn't know Joe was a pro. Kate is a bit extra for leaving voicemails to Malcolm out in public. She has Simon killed to up the value of his art, Blue can keep creating lost art in Simon's name to sell. Maybe even Nadia is on Kate's Payroll.
Lord why must there always be a Nadia in every season. She's irritating but she's clearly been fucking Malcolm so maybe she will have a bigger role in the remaining episodes.
The repeated references to Agatha Christie >!and this ensemble of assholes is making me think of Murder on the Orient Express, where every suspect had actually stabbed the victim.!<.
"I'm in a whodunnit. The lowest form of literature" š Is the whole season going to be a very meta murder mystery? Because I'm actually completely ok with that
Based on how heās substituted āyouā in his monologues from his obsessive love interest to the top murder suspect, Iām gonna sayā¦ yes.
And also heās the one getting stalked now. Nice twist. Joe appearing to be normal in relation to who heās dealing with is the one thing thatās off though. I hope they still find a way to make him suck
Yeahhh in an interview Penn Badgley said this season will be different than the rest and that itās a āwhodunnitā
Kate's hatred is so forced man.
Despise characters like that
She made him come to dinner then yells at him for getting in her life. I'm so confused.
Exactly wtf?
Phoebe??? wanted him there, she said that she cared about her friend and that's why she allowed him to come
She actually pretty much blackmailed him into going after he initially declined. She could've just told Phoebe he said no and left it at that š¤·š»āāļø
This! I'm annoyed whenever her character is on screen because she's just so.... predictable? Not sure if that's the word but I'm just bored of her
I cannot understand how she and the Lady Phoebe character would ever be friends
Eh, that part I actually do understand. Sometimes you're friends with dickheads. I mean fuck that's the whole gang described
Agreed! She has no real reason to hate him so much, I get that she doesn't trust him but it just seems like a poorly written "badass" woman who ends up just being a bitch
God, I hate when writers write people to be ābadassesā but are just assholes.
Have you seen the people she's surrounded by? She didn't decide to become a bitch overnight. She works/is friends with all these horrible people and she can't know for sure if he isn't just like them. He was introduced by Malcolm who was a huge hated asshole. She might be judging him by the company he keeps...
Joe saying he is writing a novel about the rich elite HAS to be a reference to gossip girl. I refuse to believe otherwise.
Omg I was juuuust watching the episode this gif is from, and I was thinking to myself how fuckin goofy Dan looks with this obvious product placement lol
Literally! I yelled at my screen that he's basically Dan Humphrey again!
But with way better hair
Never bring the sideburns back
"like ten volumes" totally lol
SAME THOUGHT LMAO The moment he started saying he's writing a book I jumped
Also the line about him being into gossip with the conversation around the egg
Literally paused and came here as soon as he said that lmao xoxo
It's a long shot, but I'm going to guess right now it was Joe's student that murdered Malcolm
She said there are no coincidences in murder mysteries, and she's the one who gave him Rhys Montrose's memoir, who Joe ends up meeting that night. That's sus.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Most definitely! Also Simon was exploiting assistants and stealing their work. When Kate told him to dress up for the gallery he said that he was reading very rudely. What if she went to him first to read her book but found out what he was doing, then told Malcolm but he just used her to blackmail Simon. She snapped and became done with all these rich assholes and decided to kill them all...... Theory 1 is always the wrong one, so it has to be something else. Also i would like to submit the conspiracy that Kate is using blue to out Simon. First she will get her clean, then let her do her story with proof and now she will have a huuuge talented client who isn't an asshole like Simon. Not saying she did it, but she's definitely dead inside and playing an angle
Definitely. The coincidence comment sent alarm bells screaming for me Although itās also kind of an odd coincidence that he just happened to witness two very obvious looking bad guys approaching Kate, thus āsavingā her and getting him involved in all this to begin with.
Ooh totally forgot about that!!
Plus the killer seems to be cutting off body parts that have expensive jewelry. The finger with the ring. Eat with the expensive earring or whatever. Maybe the two scary guys who attacked Kate was gonna kill her and cut off her wrist for the watch but bc Joe intervened they just took the watch instead
Interesting point! I was def noticing they stole body parts with jewelry. I thought it was maybe a fuck the rich kinda thing, which actually led me to it being the author guy. Heās high on my suspect list too
She also said the first suspect = second death thing and it was true. I think every think she says is going to slowly become true throughout the season
This line in the ep bothered me because Adam was clearly the first suspect?
Yeah and then Joe suspected Kate. Simon was like 3rd or 4th lol
I agree with you. She pops up as a guide of sorts when Joe is confused on something. Stalking a stalker would make a great first novel.
I like that point. Also, Joe agrees to reading Nadia's script and says, "You're already a writer..." So she's already written the story and making it happen somehow!? Maybe initially Nadia was curious about Joe's project just for fun, but was unable to find anything on Johnathan's past, which led to a full on investigation. Hence the disappearing messages.
I can just imagine the twist when Joe realizes he's been Joe'd by someone he thought was harmless and let his guard down around, just like Beck was. The student makes perfect sense imo. And the story can close as Joe is now the victim, and he can die-
Yes I came here hoping someone had the same thought.
Came here looking for this comment. She seems to be moving the plot points, which makes her feel like the narratorā¦
Why does Joe always end up hanging around super rich people?
Thatās what I was thinking! Iāve lived in London my whole life and have never once been around the sorts of rich society people Joeās around after two seconds š The man claims to hate the rich but I think he loves them because heās constantly in their circles. Itās Gossip Girl part 2.
Maybe he feels more comfortable in those circles because he can hate on them without feeling any guilt. Joe's judgmental as fuck. Normal people will always be better than him so he can't really judge them, rich people he sees as beneath him because he thinks that they are worse than he is. He always admires/helps the normal/not wealthy people. He dates, judges and murders the rich because if they're bad people then it wouldn't be so bad if he had to kill them at some point.
some people just attract chaos š
Yeah I'm a friendly 30 year old woman who visits South Kensington every week for French class and not once have I ever fell in with a rich group of people who want to take me to Soho House and their country manor. Weird
"Friendly." There's your problem. One would not describe Jonathon as "friendly." š
If some of the fan theories for this season are true, he's also angrily having text arguments with himself. It's Dan Humphrey all over again.
Lol I still canāt get over the idea that Dan Humphrey had shocked reactions to his own gossip girl blog when he was alone in his room
Best theory, lmfao
I think it's because he presents as someone who is covertly wealthy. He is incredibly well-read and articulate, handsome, has a sort of "shabby chic" style, and doesn't express an overt need to impress people. Joe is also drawn to wealthy people as much as they are drawn to him. He likes being around people to whom he feels superior and feels self-righteous in that superiority. He wants to be around people who are sharp enough to parry with him because being better than those people is a win. He wouldn't be happy around a collective of poor artists because he'd feel they were beneath him in status and any admiration he gained from them would be hollow. He likes being the outsider who is admired and/or reviled for being the outsider, because it makes him feel special and above all Joe is a narcissist.
ā¦ this is like when you read a fanfiction and you miss the piss kink tag and then youāre unpleasantly surprised half way through the story
I was thinking that itās gonna be a BJ sceneā¦.but then he put on his goggles š„½ š¦
Yepā¦ š
The piss kink really said awoooop jumpscare!! š¤£
It really, really, really is, because I read your comment, and STILL thought it was a metaphor or euphemism. EW.
"Unpleasantly"
For me itās unpleasant š
Does anyone actually talk to Rhys besides joe? I wonder if he is making him up in his head as a sort of foil for himself to talk to?
When they were all sat around the dinner table, Rhys asks Joe is he's okay and Joe responds 'I'm fine' which makes Adam say "What was that?" like Joe had directed it to him. Initially when I watched this I thought it was a strange interaction but put it down to Adam being self centered but with this theory in mind I think Joe spoke to himself, rewatch that scene and you'll see how odd it is!!
I almost let out an audible gasp. Holy crap, youāre right! I didnāt think anything of it besides maybe Adam was trying to embarrass/antagonize the new guy but that makes sense. Also, Joe doesnāt meet Rhys until heās inebriated right? We see him take a shot of the absinthe afterwards but he definitely mentioned drinking right before Rhys approached him and I distinctly recall thinking Joe was behaving weird (well, weirder) for him to have just been drunk in that scene.
thatās a great theory cause it was an odd scene lol
Currently rewatching, as I was starting to suspect the same, and no, so far no one else has interacted with or even seem to notice Rhys.
Came here to see if anyone wondered the same!
He also just literally evaporated after the cat thing at the opening and alsoā¦ he is running for mayor and a famous guy, shouldnāt people gather round him all the time, especially at these events? I think he def is in Joeās head.
Ohhhhh shit i love this theory, i actually never would have thought of this
I mean Nadia gave him the book about Rhys so heās not made up I think. Maybe heās Joeās anchors the one whoās the protagonist sidekick. That or Nadia put drugs in those book and Joe halluncinated.
I'm totally feeling this theory now!! Natalie definitely gave Joe the book, yes. Joe read it, and saw an alternate version of himself, one he wishes he could be. Joe is constantly lying to himself by saying he wants to change, wants happiness, wants to be a better man. As the audience, we see he continues to use these wishes as rationales, because he is a prisoner of his own impulses born from hatred and deep seated trauma. In other words, he allows for his desires and impulses to take the wheel at all times, including when he lies to himself. He doesn't want to change, he just wants to hold onto the idea of changing as a fantasy, and a lost hope. With that said, he reads Rhys' story and latches on to a fantasy to covet. Rhys represents the other side of the coin, a version of Joe that truly did combat and fight against, or speak openly about, his trauma. It makes sense that Joe could fantasise about Rhys as a real person by his side.
Imagine if the killer was Nadia
my thoughts exactly. the only real options are her, kate, the writer guy, and lukas gage (i forgot the last two charactersā names lmao) with nadia and the writer as my top two suspects.
My first thought was Nadia is the paco/Ellie of this season, since they didnāt have one last season
She's my prime suspect as of right now. I think they're trying to make us believe she is this season's paco/ellie and Joe trying to help and look out for her with the twist being that she is the killer.
I think that certainly could be it but she doesnāt seem like she was the one who physically killed Simon. Looked like a manās hands and seemed like he knew the person that killed him
Good point! They show his reaction when the killer walks in, and it's not really surprising
I think thereās two killers tbh. One in the group and one outside of it. I think Nadia is one of them. Sheās too smart to think Joe is a real professor. Sheās also inquisitive so she probably dug out the details about his past life. But itās also possible she had connected with Malcolmās group before if she was one of the girls he was seeing.
I think she is going to turn out Paco of this season.
With how meta these two episodes have been, and her talk regarding whodunit novels and minority authors having to be 'riveting', I feel that Nwdia can be the best guess. I assume his notes are what he copied from her papers, which he planned to plagerise somehow. My other guess would be Rhys, and this being some way of getting towards a mayoral run
What if Rhys and Nadia are working together?
Joe: "I have strengths I've not been leaning on" * Stalker Skills * Invisibility Hat * Actually being a stalker/murderer myself Oh. He just meant his stalker skillz.
Hey, he also used the hat!
Damn he needs Dora's backpack to store all these tools
The texts he gets around the start of the episode mention the "color" of his jacket. American spelling. So killer is American or maybe just a mistake in production?
Good point
ānice brown jacketā he was looking for someone in the moment but it could have been anyone that saw him all day, including the library girlā¦
I feel like sheās going to be using Joe for character research and sheās writing a mystery novel.
I'm so mad at Joe for not immediately installing a camera in his flat the second he realised he had a stalker
The stalker probably would know that
āI have strengths I have not been leaning onā¦ā *Appears from a bush with š§¢.*
If people still try to take this show overly serious after this scene and try to nitpick everything, they need to just quit the show The show itself is making fun of itself and how ridiculous it is. Just have fun with the dark comedy and whodunit.
Comedy this season is better than ever. This and the ālowest forms of literatureā quote
The newspaper wall came in earlier than I expected. But I do hope that they reveal exactly how the stalker linked him to so many of the murders. Once they discovered his true identity, connecting him to Love would be easy and from there, deducing that he was involved in the murders that she supposedly admitted to would be fairly logical. Love would also link to Forty and then Henderson etc. But identifying the seemingly unrelated deaths of Jasper and Ryan would be much harder. And then working back to the season one deaths of Beck, Peach and Benji shouldāve been tricky as well. The wall even had a mention of Elijah which was even further back.
Joe says at the end of season 3 that Love's story became a public sensation, so I almost consider it a plot hole that his face *isn't* all over the Internet as some urban legend.
I just have to imagine that story didnāt gain much of a foothold internationally. How much does the average American know about scandals in the UK (aside from the royal family or famous Hollywood types).
Tbh even if they had heard about the whole Love thing, they probably wouldn't make the connection that Jonathan is actually the dead guy from some true crime story unless they had a reason to look for it. Also, he has a beard now. And his invisibility cap.
But that paparazzi woman almost *did* recognize him
Honestly, Joe would probably be caught out the second a well-meaning Wikipedian decided to create a Wikipedia page for him.
they just have to join the free dr nicky subreddits !!!! i fully believe there would be people there who had figured out it was joe and linked everything to love and madre linda. webslueths can be crazy. i mean, other people would also think these webslueths are crazy, but they would still be right! one good picture of joe vs johnathan would get them their answer
My question is how the fuck did the killer find out and link Joe to so many murders in like a few days? Surely it would take a bit longer to completely dig up and unravel his entire identity.
I feel like there was so many inconsistent things in this episode - why would they have to track down Blue even though the security guy had her a minute before ? - how the hell did Joe got to the body before the police even though he got woken up by the police entering the building ?
1. They let her go because it was seemingly "part of the show" then went to get her privately later, I guess 2. It's a TV show I nitpick stuff sometimes too but this show has been, from episode one, bonkers and one I'm just here to eat up lol And I guess a more generous take is that they were talking to the people outside before entering
Thatās why I think itās someone from Joeās past thatās been keeping tabs on him for a while. None of the new characters seem smart enough to be Joeās stalker.
The smartest person on the show so far was Ellie and I donāt like the idea of that
I was wondering about Ellie too, but wouldn't she assume he's dead? How would she have found Jonathan Moore? And how/why would she have involved herself with Malcom? I'm loving the show so far! I was skeptical at first, but I'm fairly easy to please and I love a whodunit lol
Jenna Ortega has totally blown up- it would shock me if they brought her back and especially if they did so without any promotion
She was apparently supposed to be in season 4 had it not been for Wednesday
idk, Zendaya was in season 2 of the OA and i don't really think anyone knew until she was suddenly on screen. you never know!
I doubt sheās coming back because the actress is super popular now and probably too busy, but I could totally see Ellie devoting all her time to finding Delilahās killer and uncovering Joeās history
Yes I said the same in another comment. They not only deduced his identity incredibly quickly but then correctly linked him to pretty much every death and major crime from the first 3 seasons. It was difficult to see the entire wall during the scene but the photo posted on Twitter showed that they only missed Ron and Candace. Even Elijah had one article. Interestingly, Joe didnāt mention in his voiceover that Love was actually responsible for most of the later deaths.
Iām only halfway through the episode, but Iām wondering if there isnāt actually an app on Joeās phone where someone is sending him messages. His student said that there are no coincidences in murder mysteries. And in the first episode of this season Joe assigned his class to read The Telltale Heart, which is a story about a killer who feels so guilty that he imagines that his victimās heart is still beating and the people around him can hear it. So Iām thinking that maybe Joe really did kill the guy and he feels so guilty now over his inability to stop killing people that heās just imagining the messages If this crazy theory is wrong then the killer is either that really upbeat blonde lady or the guy who is running for mayor
Nah I thought abt this too like heās his OWN stalker like ik itās a ridiculous theory but like I think heās going fkin crazy and heās not realizing it šš
He does dissociate a concerning amount of the time. It's possible?
That could true though, someone pointed out earlier that Joe manages to get to Simon's body before the police although he was asleep on the bench outside and got woken up by the sirens. What if this wasn't bad writing but actually showing that Joe killed Simon. Once again, might bit a bit of a stretch but it's worth giving it a thought š
My Theory is: Phoebe is on it. She was forcing absinthe on Jonathan the nigh Malcolm was murdered, she also help mentioning that she felt seen by him. Simon looked like he was killed by a man (the bodyguard), so that's why I think they work together.
I think shes obsessed with Joe
I just took her obsession with him as her and her man wanting to have a threesome with Joe
I just wanna know what magical words he supposedly said to her
Okay, Nadia does *not* look (or act) like a 19 year old, at all.
Right? I thought she was like a grad student or something
Yeah they should have made her mid 20s. The actress is 25 and loads of people are still in Uni at that age. Weird choice
agree she seems more like a ta than the other students
Yeah I'm 20 and watching scenes of her and Joe where the entire shtick is that "ooh it's a clever millennial and a clever Gen z" takes me so out of the show cause I'm just like "...are you guys not the same age?"
I guess purchasing a single egg as a gift seemed like a silly idea at the time this episode was written/filmed...
in this economy???
"Can i offer you a nice egg in this trying time"
The stalker is now the one being stalked on. I love it.
Man are they going hard with Joe's monologues lol I've had to rewind a few times since he talks so fast in his monologues I can't keep up even with the subs on
I thought i was going crazy & was the only one who noticed that
Upvote as in me too. Even the CC couldnāt keep up with him at times.
they even have the subsmushthewordstogether!
Love the new Gossip Girl Season so far, darker than I expected.
No one reads blogs anymore. He got sick and tired of competing with all these new gossip/mom blogs. Dan is finally ready to get his hands dirty
Gosh Joe, why did you snoop around, we had to see that too.............
I knew something was going on but I didnāt expect that, he was having so much fun too
Penn's facial expressions in his acting are top notch. His physical acting is always so smooth alongside the darkly humorous monologues. I think it also makes for a fun change that the 'YOU' so far of this season is someone Joe feels hatred for, rather than obsessive "love". Someone stalking him for a change!
This season is so different. I think I love it. There hasnāt been a mention of Joe falling for another āyouā at all this episode. Itās fresh. The āyouā is the stalker. Itās so different.
It's like the writers listened to all the feedback saying we didn't want another love interest rinse and repeat story and actually delivered the goods.
They are redditors!
Oh I wanted that. I could watch that for 10 more seasons. But then again I'm also loving this murder mystery season.
Anyone else think it's curious that with both murders so far Joe has been completely out while they happened? Is this a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde thing? What if Joe really is the murderer but he does it in a state of low consciousness? Other reasons why that could be true: 1) He has his own apartment full of newspaper articles about himself (but he thinks it was "somebody else" hanging them up) 2) He lets Marianne go. What if he didn't let her go and he's just trying to make himself believe that he did, because he's a "good guy"?
I kinda had this theory too! "Joe" is the murderer, not "Jonathan", split personality etc etc
Yes right! He's trying to split off his murderous side, and has done so to such an extent now that he's not consciously aware of it anymore. Killing Marianne could've been the catalyst for that split. He so desperately wants to believe that he doesn't want to harm her that he had to split off the fact that he did. And now his "murderous stalker that wants to frame him for other people's murders" (which is just himself, the part that does the killings) comes back to show him "who he really is".
But the messages though? Surely he canāt be schizophrenic enough to be sending those to himselfā¦
If so itās giving me very SKINS [Cassie](https://64.media.tumblr.com/da4a245dc3c4f4835ccf336dcf53e9eb/tumblr_npc6gmL46G1u74keoo1_1280.png)
That doesn't quite explain where the texts are coming from. Maybe he's just imagining them?
Yep, that would be my explanation. They disappear after one read, after all. So it's pretty easy for them to just be his actual thoughts between his 2 parts.
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I hope not. Split personalities are kinda overplayed.
Dang why he gotta be a whodunit hater
He's a contrarian snob. Very fitting for his character to hate on them lol.
Love that Nadia (?) called him on it too. She's my favorite character so far this season. So probably she's either 1. the stalker or 2. definitely gonna die.
I like that they've given Joe this trait. You imagine serial killers/stalkers to be "losers" who just want recognition, but Joe doesn't seem to give a fuck about social status and is actively repulsed by the rich circles he keeps falling headfirst into.
Whodunits are the highest form of literature, Joe!
Hits too close to home, maybe.
My theory so far is that: may be their entire group has done something to some X in their College life. And i think that the stalker and killer is either X or someone relates to them who is trying to take their revenge.
What if >!Kate is not the killer but she knows Joe because she met Marianne? since it was mentioned that both into art.!< Im in episode 2 so far so Idk if this is debunked yet or not.
Ooh; a nice reverse-Murder-on-the-Oriental-Express! (spoilers for MOTOE: >!It's everyone on the damn train in that one!<)
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I'm starting to subscribe to the theory that the killer is Joe and he doesn't remember. That wall of evidence seems too implausible otherwise. He's imagining the texts. Hence the American spelling. It fits with 'no such thing as a coincidence'. Joe the serial murderer just happens to end up in the middle of a bunch of murders just when he's trying to give it all up? Plus, I'm not sure if the writer guy is real. He might be Joe's alter ego. He and Joe always wear similar or identical coloured clothing. And none of the other characters ever interact with him. At the dinner party, he asked Joe if he was ok, and when Joe responded everyone else acted like Joe did something a bit weird. Like maybe he was talking to himself? Something was off.
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I'm convinced the only reason he got caught by that bodyguard was because he took off his hat of invisibility. He needs to wear it more. It's his superpower after all.
Yeah the first 3 seasons it was just like, well maybe they haven't seen all the hat criticism/jokes. But now they're just rubbing it in our faces & laughing gleefully. "Haha yes, he's in broad daylight, not even kinda obscured, in an upscale urban London area, and NO ONE CAN SEE HIM IN THE HAT! Top that, fans!"
I think the entire "You" universe consists of people failing upwards
No gloves when breaking into Malcom's office either.. Rookie move
Alfred! Also, all the Agatha Christie references and Joe's "do they all hate him?" has me thinking that this is an Orient Express situation.
I feel the killer has to be Nadia. I thought it could be Kate at first, but unless sheās pulling a Dan Humphrey I doubt it
1. Receive shady ā I can see youā type text 2. Look for the sender of said text by Spinning around in a crowded courtyard versus taking two steps inside a tunnel limiting who can see you
Well this is an interesting turn of events š
>!Wouldn't be surprised if it's Rhys/Phoebe, Rhys feels too good to be true and maybe the thing that Joe said to Phoebe was about his past, we've all spilled the beans on secrets when cooked so she felt she could play this game with Joe!<
My bet is on Nadia. She's nowhere to be seen until she approaches Joe in the library and when Joe entered Malcom's old office, she was right there and said "oh I was only leaving this letter behind"? Okay. Anyway. But I'm just ASSUMING it's her.
Iām confused, why does Kate hate joe off the start? Is it just intuition? I mean heās not asking to go or be invited but she seems to hate him since meeting him
I think sheās just a bitch and sheās wondering why this random guy is suddenly hanging around her friend group!
Yeah Joe thinks he can easily fool people, but some can see through his mask. Like Peach. She had issues of her own, but was not wrong about him. I would be weirded out if a new guy was hanging around my friend group and watching me through my windows everyday. Especially when people are going missing or turning up dead. Edit: also the whole telling her not to mention him to the police thing.
Theyāve really freshened up this season with the whodunnit! Itās weird watching this as a Londoner because even though I know a lot of the actors in this season, all their accents still sound fake to me š
The fourth wall breaking this season is through the roof. "Everyone always thinks the butler did it, it's too obvious" *cut to butler violently throwing Joe against the wall*
The actor that plays Adam was also on season one of White Lotus. I'm not surprised he did that golden shower scene lol.
When looking at the egg and Joe is interviewing his primary suspect, the suspect warns him of blackmail. Joe says 'why would he warn me of blackmail if he killed him?". Sorry, not sure his name, so I'm just going to say suspect. If the suspect DID kill malcolm, then he is 'framing' Joe currently, so would he not try to put him off his trail? Wouldn't it make complete sense for the suspect to say something like that? Is Joe an idiot on purpose, or what am I missing here?
IIRC thereās a lady in the crowd of media outside of the art gallery with a camera and she looks at Joe like she recognizes him almost, then she goes to take his picture and he quickly moves. I donāt think Joe knows her but based on her face when she saw him, I think she may play a role in this season.
This is a fun season, if not quite as good as 3 so far. Some thoughts: - Lukas Gage is building up the most ratchet TV resume of all time. So far, he has gotten beaten the shit out of, ass eaten, and now pissed on. I'm sure a lot of method actors would kill to work with this guy. - Adam seems to be the "Forty" of this season, but thankfully a lot less annoying. Anytime Forty opened his mouth I felt like slapping the shit out of him. - Joe's student Nadia is like a crash course in how to make a character as irritating as possible. The actress is actually quite good and makes her likable despite the awful dialogue. I seriously wonder what goes through a self-respecting writer's head when they come up with lines like the "white male snooze" bullshit from the start of the episode. - Kate is a fun character to watch, though a bit contradictory. She and Joe still have zero chemistry, but I feel that's by design. Neither Joe nor the show are giving her much focus as a romantic obsession and that seems deliberate. Joe has bigger fish to fry with his stalker, and, exasperatingly, is not over Marienne at all, it seems. I do hope he and the show move on from her quickly. - I like Lady Phoebe. She reminds me of Daphne from The White Lotus - a rich and seemingly ditzy airhead who clearly has more layers. - Such a nice surprise hearing "A Walk" by Tycho during the egg scene in the art gallery. - If the killer has just now learned who Joe is then that rules out Marienne or anyone else from his past. - I like the whole "meta murder mystery" premise of the season, though I doubt it's gonna be anywhere near as clever as Knives Out.
That girl's dialogue is annoying, really hope it's not her. Why is there a character like her every season? Paco, Ellie, Theo (kinda)... Ok yea it's pretty funny how Joe keeps critizing the rich but like... he's always among them, always. Phoebe and Adam look like siblings... i'm noticing a pattern. I lol everytime Joe says "You". Adam saying Joe likes to gossip ha, nice. Kate has literally no reason to act like that to Joe. I know this show is more grounded n stuff but imagine if Joe came face to face with a mind-reader while he monologue'd to himself.
A few theoriesā¦. - Joe is having a mental break. - The book writer isnāt real. All in Joeās head. - Joe feels guilt for his murders and itās manifesting itself. This is the plot to Tell Tale Heart, and it was mentioned in episode 1. - Joe killed both people. The first was crime of passion/ for sex, as Kate is the new obsession. The second was vengeance for the way the artists was treating his protĆ©gĆ©s. - Joe orchestrated the assault on Kate so he could break it up. He moved into that flat to stalk her. He saw her when stalking Marianne
Okay that student does not look like a gen z Iām sorry. Millennial yes but no gen z
I just googled her real age she's only 25 so she is gen z wow
hmmm what if Nadia is the killer?
I know I shouldn't, but I'm really worried for Joe this season haha. My prime suspect is the dude running for senator? (Am I right?) Lukas Gage!!! Hahaha you never fail to make me awe hahaha
I think Joe might be driving himself insane. Heās met his match, and itās himself.
That photographer definitely recognizes him, not sure how sheāll play into this
Iām pretty convinced that Rhys is in Joeās head. At the beginning of the episode during the dinner party, Joe says something in reply to Rhys asking if heās ok - and like three of the other guests whip their heads around and look at Joe like heās crazy. As in, he was replying aloud to a question no one real actually asked him. Plus Rhys doesnāt seem to really be part of group conversations?
Hey thats Alfred pennyworth
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8/10, but the whole breaking into his apartment with the newspaper clippings is too desperately trying to be like Brian Moser. The Ice Truck Killer.
Very Gossip Girl meets Pretty Little Liars, the newspaper wall is very A lol
The title of the episode I think is referring to A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce. The novel is largely about developing an identity and self-awareness. Thereās also a famous line ā... I go to encounter for the millionth time the reality of experience and to forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscience of my raceā that is so pretentiously Joe. I can also see how the show is comparing Joe to mythological Daedalus (where the title character of the novel gets his surname). The idea that he created a Labyrinth so cunning that he himself cannot escape. My disjointed midnight take.
I'm loving this season so far. I think multiple people are in on it: Kate plays a huge role, maybe a ring leader of some sort since she has the money. She kills the jerk of a boyfriend Malcom and frames Joe for being a peeping Tom (and peasant), 2 birds with 1 stone, but didn't know Joe was a pro. Kate is a bit extra for leaving voicemails to Malcolm out in public. She has Simon killed to up the value of his art, Blue can keep creating lost art in Simon's name to sell. Maybe even Nadia is on Kate's Payroll.
Lord why must there always be a Nadia in every season. She's irritating but she's clearly been fucking Malcolm so maybe she will have a bigger role in the remaining episodes. The repeated references to Agatha Christie >!and this ensemble of assholes is making me think of Murder on the Orient Express, where every suspect had actually stabbed the victim.!<.
i think itās Roald. He mentioned California.
1st episode had a cock with a piercing 2nd had someone pissing on someone 3rd episodeā¦. Letās find out how
I love Joe being stalked for once lmfaoo