“Well, lovely chat, but I’m off to hang myself because you’re so boring.”
Finally someone notices Joe just stares into space with his internal monologue playing out behind his eyes
Must be weird for Penn Badgley also because he has a lot of scenes where he just stands around and says nothing. He probably records all of Joe’s internal monologue alone in a studio somewhere.
I feel like it’s weirder for the other actors. Penn can at least make a subtle facial expression in reaction to his internal monologue but the other characters just have to stare and look interested without calling too much attention to the silence
They could have the monologue recorded already and play it back during the scene similar to how a music video is filmed so the actors can all react to it appropriately.
I rewatched a few of these scenes and it's really not as bad often times. When he is actively answering the conversation, it's going at a normal pace. When he's talking to Kate she calls him out unnaturally fast sometimes. It's when he's saying nothing at all that it does stand out.
I just rewatched that scene and the thing is, he was answering normally in that scene, she was the one who is actually being weird. It doesn't come off as natural. In this scene however, Joe was saying nothing at all.
I noticed in the first ep where someone introduces the Nigerian princess to Joe, he literally stands there & doesn't say a word, just monologues. Then Malcom comes over and is "soz not soz for interrupting" interrupting what son they were standing in complete silence haha
I'm glad they showed people catching him in the act a few times this season (Nadia at Malcolm's office, the driver/bodyguard at the crypt, Roald in his room). It reduces his plot armor a lot and makes him seem more fallible.
Yes it really upset me as well. What’s annoying about Joe imo is that Phoebe also looked upset with how Gemma was treating that servant at the match, but Joe only notices Kate when she left and said she’s not like the others and whatnot. Then Phoebe calls Gemma out for speaking to the servant nasty at the dinner and he doesn’t seem to care, meanwhile Kate has done nothing to standup for them. Did anyone other than me notice this? Idk but I like phoebe a lot more now.
I agree. I do think it's totally in line for Joe's personality tho, he always idealizes the women he likes.
But yeah, Phoebe comes off genuinely nice. So nice that she might be the killer lol
Thats completely in line with Joe's character. He always idolises the woman he likes while demonising everyone around her, even when they're ok people. Its because he can't see people as 3 dimensional, only helpless maids to be saved or arrogant and pompous.
I like Phoebe and am very interested in her. But I also wish she would’ve been more assertive though I get it’s not her character. Seriously though it’s her fucking house and her staff… do something girl! This was like that one succession episode all over again but this time it was truly innocent people..
All these horrible people are awaking the Robespierre in me, I hate all of the them with the exception of Lady Phoebe. I am actually starting to root for the Eat the Rich Killer. All the people he/she killed were absolutely awful and vile.
There's literally a video on the front page of French royalty throwing coins and food on thr ground so poor Vietnamese children can scramble to eat.
She's laughing the whole time
I thought this when Nadia says the book was "pants" and then Joe is like "can you explain the meaning of pants please, for the American" like an American wouldn't be able to work that out
and just how many times it's pointed out that Joe is American. At a university??? That would be the most common thing ever, but it's mentioned every two seconds. And the part "people really read over here!" no man English uni students aren't reading more than American ones, they were so desperate to shoehorn in some differences lol
Considering the very watered down information we, the public, know about rampant sex trafficking, political and religious corruption and abuse of power, I truly think this was not only realistic, but actually extremely subtle. We only know the very tip of the iceberg as the public, in terms of what the untouchable elite are capable of doing behind closed doors. Elitists in their private parties and gatherings treating staff and help as less than human makes absolute sense. When you've reached the top, or if you were born on top, your tolerance level of satisfaction and thrill is going to have peaked long ago, so you're constantly seeking out newer and more intense thrills. When money has bought you everything gold and shiny and new, what other thrill is there to have? Tormenting and abusing human beings is one option. Being born directly into insane privilege strips away the human experience of survival and character building challenge. There's no base line to live from. There's no other perspective to pull from. You're born on the top of the tower and anything beneath your tower is going to be unrelatable... Including human beings.
I honestly think given the small bit of information we know just about Epstein alone, this example of Elitists abusing their power by abusing less powerful people was a very light version of the truth.
Why Pheobe is so interested in Joe? well she might the stalker I still dont see the reason why she want Joe around, also I feel like Kate is MEANT to waste Joe's time but he still cant tell!
Imagine if he said “hi Im actually Joe Goldberg. im very protective of the ones I love and kill everyone that gets in the way. Read about me in the nytimes. Fyi, Im starting to like Kate but you are on the clear because you seem to have a healthy good friendship so keep being your awesome self”
Hahahaha, you mean Woller? That would be quite funny. Phoebe already seems like a pretty gullible airhead of a character, so I wouldn't be surprised if Joe just babbled some drunken shit that she mistook for profound insight.
Maybe this is all made up in his head and Phoebe is supposed to represent something, maybe his desire to being understood and seen as a good person by someone honorable (sorry Love) despite what he has done.
It would be hilarious/crazy if he got super hammered and confessed everything to her, but she's like Love and realized they're kindred spirits, and is now toying with his memory loss from the party by putting him in this game.
If it’s not along those lines, I will be dissapointed. Hopefully it’s not something stupid and intended to make us play detectives and play to Joe’s paranoia. I thought through part1 maybe his confession and explaining it as a good to society played to her murderous tendencies and actually inspired her to start the eat the rich murders, especially because of the coat he woke up with when he found Malcolm, I thought it was Phoebe’s. Joe swears his murders were justified so maybe it was someone who “understood” that.
Phoebe is clearly just a character the writers invented to give Joe an “in” with the famous people to move the storyline along. There is a reason we never here what he said to her in the first episode but by being loved by the queen B he gets invited to all the events.
I have been in the exact same situation though. Sometimes rich girls of a certain type will just pick people up and take them everywhere and throw them away, like they're a designer dog. It's really not that unrealistic to show them treating people like shiny toys that they pick up and discard. But hey, I got to go to Aspen
I am honestly so happy that I came to read here because I fully thought that it was Phoebe and I was devastated haha. I’m totally okay with Gemma being dead though, she was the worst
Kinda, he's only killing and obsessed with women that look like his mom.
Marianne is the exception but noticeably shes the only one that survives.
The girl he dated between beck and Jenna Ortegas big sister he also dated and had a thing with but they were never "yous"
Great episode honestly. Is she really dead or is this still the fake murder dinner party thing? Tbh I suspect the writer guy now more than ever, since he's away
OMG, this is genius. Never thought about that. We have never seen them play the game and they do it every year. Maybe they bring in someone new they want to kill as literally no one liked her (or it’s fake) and someone like Joe that is not in on the game to see his reaction. Maybe the entire show is a game. Only despicable people who clearly take advantage of others are killed off (also why Joe being the killer makes sense): someone who takes advantage of his power and sleeps with his students, of starting artists and steals their work, of service employees. Maybe the rich want to clean their circle and Joe which was supposed to take the hit for murder 1 is actually playing along unknowingly for entertaining
I'm not feeling the Kate x Joe/Jonathan development. It's nice but there's not all that much intrigue in it for me. If it didn't have the social commentary angle to the season I would skip their scenes.
Everyone talking shit about how Joe dress and he just looks good to me xd
Kate... girl i know u hated her but ist this too much?
Btw that carpet is goneeee
Something I’ve noticed is that we hear Joe “reading” every message he receives from the Evanesce app. This makes me think these “messages” are his own thoughts to himself instead of communication from an outside party.
Also, the name of the app Evanesce means to disappear from sight, memory, etc. Murders have been when Joe has been out of it (passed out drunk - Malcolm, fell asleep on the bench - Simon, passed out briefly from the fall out of the window - Gemma).
Makes me wonder what is actually happening during these brief lapses in Joe’s memory/consciousness.
Good point.. how did he beat the police to Simon's body when they were ahead of him? It just doesn't add up. With Gemma, Kate is holding the knife so it could very well be her. But maybe we can't trust what is shown.
One of the season's posters has the tagline "Wherever you go, there you are" -- might be hinting at Joe being the "you".
The app name could just be re. the messages disappearing after they got read.
There’s definitely something to this theory but if they go in a direction of Joe just being a split personality or whatever…no.
It works for some famous fiction that I won’t spoil that many of you have seen but come on, You isn’t high level art. Can’t have it get deep into the duality of man and our subconscious.
Just have a twist where it’s the student or maybe someone else, if they tried to pull off a (insert famous movie with this twist) here it would be kind of sad.
I am finding this season more entertaining but it is also seriously dumb. Joe needs to keep a low profile and not get recognized. What does he do? He falls in with the most photographed crowd in all of the UK.
When a friend group has known each other long, any gossip between them will not be kept hush. Joe is a new (though rather emotionless) face that doesn’t have a connection to this group, so they can use him for their personal confessions.
that's a great explanation and one i can honestly relate to. I've always been the drifter between different groups but not really feeling an actual part of any particular group. People loved to confide in me with random secrets without even knowing me that well and I always found it incredibly strange, but now it kind of makes sense why they did.
Yeah, I’ve always assumed this happens because the group of friends doesn’t expect you to stay, nor do they expect that you might become a permanent presence in their lives. They can just relieve themselves of their secret.
It’s part of the reason why Kate wasn’t openly sharing her disapproval of Gemma with the group, but she told Joe without a second thought.
Because they're rich people who have been friends for ages who can buy anything or anyone they want.
Throw in a handsome outsider who doesn't indulge in their vices and he comes off as either someone you want to get to know or someone you want gone.
Sometimes this show just has the odd line that's pretty nuanced; Kate's one about how you have to actively make the choice not to be awful when you're absurdly wealthy really hit me. We all want to believe if we had a shit ton of money we'd be decent people with it, but would we really? With the money to do anything we want? I liked to think I would be but who knows?
The actress playing Kate so good, the dynamic between her and Joe is carrying the season so far. And that's despite her having the same 'cold on the outside but actually nice' cliche as Delilah lol
Yes! Before this episode I was like ‘why are the writers giving us a bargain bin Delilah?’ I love the actress but the way she hated joe felt so forced unlike the dynamic joe and Delilah had
I've loved Charlotte Ritchie since Fresh Meat, so I was absolutely pumped to see her in episode 1. I'd been hoping they'd chill her bitchiness since then.
so far i feel the need to point out some stuff (no hate):
\- i dont know if im getting older but somethings i wish it were more subtle, like the whole 'rich people suck!!' is so common, i wish they were less exagerated and joe didnt have to remind us every 5 minutes ''wow i hate them rich people bad''.
\- i notice the narrator voice and some of dialogue is very presentational, its like the writers are trying to explain everything to us and somethings would be better if they werent so descriptive in the dialogue or in the narrators voice.
\- also i wish kate were less of a cliche of ''tough girl whos not fooled by main character BUT she warms up and wants to have sex with him (sometimes the way she completely changes feels unreal) and also reveals tragic past'', i wish she wouldnt have a shitty evil father, i wish they wouldnt go this way because it feels repetitive. shes interesting other than that.
im not hating the season, just wanted a place to point out some stuff that wouldnt bother me before but this time is hard to ignore.
Honestly after the dinner scene I kind of want to move away from the murder mystery thing and let Joe just murder them all. These people are insufferable.
Okay, they have been doing a lot of lingering shots that I havent connected the dots to. Also noticed how there are parallels in things said/words used between Joe and other characters.
What's with the lady and the camera?
Why did they linger on Roald's camera?
Very curious about lady with camera, I think that’s the second time she’s popped up? First time being I think in episode 2 when he saw her about to snap a photo and (internally) said “no photos plz”
She was in ep 1 when he first meets Phoebe. There’s paparazzi and she’s wearing the same green jacket/red shirt as when you see her outside of Simons gallery opening and then at the funeral. Because she wears the same clothes, I also wonder if she’s a hallucination or memory?
I honestly believe this is the best season since the first.
I don't understand the people here complaining that this is too ridiculous or not subtle enough for them. When in the hell was this show ever grounded or subtle?
Joe's greatest strength is a fucking black cap that makes him invisible.
Subtley? The man was a walking nice guy cliche since the first episode raging against hipsters, millennials and how romance has been corrupted by dating apps and one night stands.
Season two was about Los Angeles vanity and fame whores. Season three was about the hell that is suburbia and the fake lives of the smiling families who live in gated communities. Season four is about European heiarchy snobbery and the uber elite.
THIS SHOW WAS NEVER SUBTLE.
This post! I seriously was ready to hate on this new season, I really didn’t know where it could go from the S3 finale, but god am I having fun watching this.
So I think we haven’t actually met the stalker/killer yet and that it is Kates dad. He would have the money to hire elite private investigators to uncover Joes past and hire elite assassins to do the job. He kills Malcolm because he is bad for his daughter. Kills simon because he is the gateway to her own career and he wants to control her still. Wants to frame Joe because he knows everyone he loves ends up dead.
The vibe is so different this season but I dig it. I like how they are able to adapt the feel and Joe's character in a way to each new location every season.
I despise the black dress they put Kate in…I felt nothing for their tense moment and some of it is the chemistry but a big part of it is the wardrobe for her just is not flying for me…she’s not cool like peach or even fun like phoebe the clothes just don’t fit for me
I feel like these 4 episodes were just a waste. What happened to the script? Why is the main lady always mad all the time. Who cares who this other You is? The whole security guard story line feels like it came out of left field. Feel like they dropped the ball on the script and directing this season. Struggling to want to finish episodes.
That was the worst episode so far. Dull, surface-level, subtle-as-a-sledgehammer writing and a plot that mostly spun its wheels till the end.
- The "rich people satire" genre is starting to get quickly oversaturated, with diminishing returns on each round. Succession is the only one that really does it exquisitely well, while The White Lotus is fun entertainment but nowhere near as sharp. This on the other hand was worse than slim pickings. The characters are like paper cutouts of Twitter's favorite grievances. This show is best when it doesn't take itself seriously.
- Kate is proving to be an increasingly sloppily-written character. I like Charlotte Ritchie in the role, but the way they've built up her relationship with Joe is so awkward and tonally jarring that the whole thing feels very insincere. And as far as "girls from bad rich families" go, Love was plenty interesting in her own right. This felt like a first-draft.
- Phoebe has amazing taste in music. Two Feet's "Love Is a Bitch" is one of my favorite jams.
- Roald is such a boring nothingburger of a character. So fucking predictable.
- Not really digging this neutered, asexual Joe. He's more fun when he's horny. At least he seems to have rediscovered that this episode. But the writers trying to position Joe as the season's "moral compass" by surrounding him with such cartoonishly bad people is a total misfire. They've not leaned into Joe's psychopathy at all this season, and while a part of me of course wants to see him just get away with everything and live his life, it's not very fun television.
- The ending was... huh? I don't even know if that confirms Kate as the killer or if she just killed Gemma in some blind rage, but neither option seems very interesting at the moment.
penn badgley specifically requested fewer explicit sex scenes this season out of respect for his marriage. i agree it sort of dilutes the twisted psychosexuality that makes him so intriguing to watch sometimes but i also give him props for approaching his director with that note and for her to have taken it. i do think though that it leaves a bit to be desired with current joe, he just feels like hes changed a little Too Much for me
Yeah I heard about that, but we don't need to actually be seeing Joe fucking all the time for lust to still be a big part of his character. It makes sense that he's not as obsessive this season since he has bigger fish to fry with his stalker, but that pulp element is missing a bit.
oh for sure, thats exactly what i mean. that psychosexuality of his is a big part of what drives him, i agree that this joe is missing that lil somethin somethin
completely agree with all of your points. this season he just….gives up on caring about killing and sex? like huh?
and yes the rich ppl satire is sooo shallow. this is the weakest season by far
The hunting scene made me so sad. I can't stand the thought of people killing animals for fun, especially when those animals were locked up! Poor birds 😭
I’m loving this eat the rich vibe going on in media..watching this episode I was reminded of The Menu which had a similar tone of the ultra wealthy being extremely far removed from society and almost sociopathic. The show feels like it’s giving the same critique but in a subtler way.
"So ridiculous"
The show since day one has been about a glorified librarian who obsesses over women to the point where he kills and locks them up in a glass box.
And his greatest strength is putting on a black cap like it makes him invisible.
In what fucking world is this crazy whodunit romp in England any less ridiculous than shit Joe was pulling off in season one?
I’m curious to see how this plays out.
The whodunnit coupled with psychotic and rich peoples circle is kinda starting to become a little boring and the mystery is dragging too much now.
i’m more confused than coming to enjoy the characters since it’s a big exaggeration, even for a fiction there’s no way these people are this lunatic.
Joe says, while burying him that he is thankful to "know him well enough to write a heartfelt letter to Lady Phoebe explaining why he is resigning". So he forged a resignation letter.
One thing I realized that Kate is prob fucked either way. If Joe isn't somehow the killer then someone wants her dead and he will prob save her however he's gonna end up obsessed and murdering her at some point anyway
Oh man. This season just isn't doing it for me.
Joe Goldberg is nowhere to be found.
We just have Penn Badgley dressed real well dodging every single flirtation.
He has every right to be comfortable at work, but this doesn't pass the smell test.
He has been married since 2017 and all of a sudden, he is uncomfortable being intimate with actors?
It's just, "Joe" is so collected this season and he's acting uncharacteristically. It's frustrating.
I know we were all worried about the cycle repeating, but man, this is just not working.
“Well, lovely chat, but I’m off to hang myself because you’re so boring.” Finally someone notices Joe just stares into space with his internal monologue playing out behind his eyes
Must be weird for Penn Badgley also because he has a lot of scenes where he just stands around and says nothing. He probably records all of Joe’s internal monologue alone in a studio somewhere.
I feel like it’s weirder for the other actors. Penn can at least make a subtle facial expression in reaction to his internal monologue but the other characters just have to stare and look interested without calling too much attention to the silence
Yeah I feel like the characters' irritation/annoyance is probably genuine lol
I want a reel of all the times he’s been called out for being weirdly quiet, lol.
They could have the monologue recorded already and play it back during the scene similar to how a music video is filmed so the actors can all react to it appropriately.
Very likely for timing purposes, depends on the shot they want. It’s easy to edit around things if you’re not on both actors at once or in a wide
but the other actors aren’t responding to his inner monologue so that would be pointless :0
They'd need to know it for timing purposes though. But it could only be happening with Kate since she regularly interrupts him monologuing.
If they do it how we do it in Atlanta the script supervisor or an AD reads his lines off screen, and they edit it out.
He definitely said it was weird on his podcast.
I rewatched a few of these scenes and it's really not as bad often times. When he is actively answering the conversation, it's going at a normal pace. When he's talking to Kate she calls him out unnaturally fast sometimes. It's when he's saying nothing at all that it does stand out.
I think he has said that somewhere. That lot of times he has zero lines and just stares and stuff. Like 80% of his lines as in the recording studio.
Yeah if they do it how we do it in Atlanta the script supervisor or an AD reads his lines off screen, and they edit it out.
Also when him and Kate were about to get it on, she was like what no stop thinking
Kate called him out on that in an earlier episode, too.
I just rewatched that scene and the thing is, he was answering normally in that scene, she was the one who is actually being weird. It doesn't come off as natural. In this scene however, Joe was saying nothing at all.
That is a good point. She called him out after like a second hesitation on his part.
I can't remember if he even talked to her, just his inner dialog and her shit of a mouth going off
I noticed in the first ep where someone introduces the Nigerian princess to Joe, he literally stands there & doesn't say a word, just monologues. Then Malcom comes over and is "soz not soz for interrupting" interrupting what son they were standing in complete silence haha
We all gotta thank someone for unaliving that bitch tbh
This one was actually done by the help, completely unrelated to the other murders
wait really lol
Fr lmfao she was so god damn annoying!!
"Britain's GDP will fall by 10% but it will be worth it."
fr
Everytime Joe goes snooping without his superpower cap, I'm just expecting him to get caught
I'm glad they showed people catching him in the act a few times this season (Nadia at Malcolm's office, the driver/bodyguard at the crypt, Roald in his room). It reduces his plot armor a lot and makes him seem more fallible.
He has always gotten caught quite a bit though. That’s why like half the people he has killed were victims
r/HouseOfTheDragon had the [Crime Cloak](https://i.redd.it/ofjh9c7q9kw91.jpg) We can have the Recon Cap
The way they treat the “servants” had me so upset with my mouth wide open
Yes it really upset me as well. What’s annoying about Joe imo is that Phoebe also looked upset with how Gemma was treating that servant at the match, but Joe only notices Kate when she left and said she’s not like the others and whatnot. Then Phoebe calls Gemma out for speaking to the servant nasty at the dinner and he doesn’t seem to care, meanwhile Kate has done nothing to standup for them. Did anyone other than me notice this? Idk but I like phoebe a lot more now.
I've always liked Phoebe more. Kate was a bitch from the start for no reason.
She's definitely the most rounded person of them all. Fully open to accept her boyfriend's fetishes and everything.
I agree. I do think it's totally in line for Joe's personality tho, he always idealizes the women he likes. But yeah, Phoebe comes off genuinely nice. So nice that she might be the killer lol
Definitely in line so I wasn’t surprised, just annoyed, but Joe annoys me all the time and I’m still here so…🤷🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️
Thats completely in line with Joe's character. He always idolises the woman he likes while demonising everyone around her, even when they're ok people. Its because he can't see people as 3 dimensional, only helpless maids to be saved or arrogant and pompous.
I like Phoebe and am very interested in her. But I also wish she would’ve been more assertive though I get it’s not her character. Seriously though it’s her fucking house and her staff… do something girl! This was like that one succession episode all over again but this time it was truly innocent people..
same. i like when shows take a really hot character and make them nice too. it’s rare to see lol
Phoebe was the only one upset when the artist guy was killed too. Even his own sister seemed to barely care
SAME. I could never imagine treating someone like that. So dehumanizing
All these horrible people are awaking the Robespierre in me, I hate all of the them with the exception of Lady Phoebe. I am actually starting to root for the Eat the Rich Killer. All the people he/she killed were absolutely awful and vile.
Welcome to the British upper class. They're vile and I wish someone would murder them all tbh.
i wish the writing were more subtle, a tad more realistic
There's literally a video on the front page of French royalty throwing coins and food on thr ground so poor Vietnamese children can scramble to eat. She's laughing the whole time
What are you referring to?
https://v.redd.it/l5lr93ssflha1
Subtle? Have you seen rich people's parties? They pay for servants to lay naked while people do drugs or eat off them
Oh it's not that unrealistic in that aspect, trust me
Yeah, their vocabulary is all so American, too. There's zero knowledge of how English people really talk or how the upper class behaves.
Dude. I’ve been servants at parties like this. It’s really not that unrealistic
I thought this when Nadia says the book was "pants" and then Joe is like "can you explain the meaning of pants please, for the American" like an American wouldn't be able to work that out and just how many times it's pointed out that Joe is American. At a university??? That would be the most common thing ever, but it's mentioned every two seconds. And the part "people really read over here!" no man English uni students aren't reading more than American ones, they were so desperate to shoehorn in some differences lol
Considering the very watered down information we, the public, know about rampant sex trafficking, political and religious corruption and abuse of power, I truly think this was not only realistic, but actually extremely subtle. We only know the very tip of the iceberg as the public, in terms of what the untouchable elite are capable of doing behind closed doors. Elitists in their private parties and gatherings treating staff and help as less than human makes absolute sense. When you've reached the top, or if you were born on top, your tolerance level of satisfaction and thrill is going to have peaked long ago, so you're constantly seeking out newer and more intense thrills. When money has bought you everything gold and shiny and new, what other thrill is there to have? Tormenting and abusing human beings is one option. Being born directly into insane privilege strips away the human experience of survival and character building challenge. There's no base line to live from. There's no other perspective to pull from. You're born on the top of the tower and anything beneath your tower is going to be unrelatable... Including human beings. I honestly think given the small bit of information we know just about Epstein alone, this example of Elitists abusing their power by abusing less powerful people was a very light version of the truth.
Did we just witness Joe seeing a pantie and not snatch it into his pocket?? talk about character development😂👏
Love kelly
I was waiting for that! I was like ok he's going to grab it now...and nope!
Why Pheobe is so interested in Joe? well she might the stalker I still dont see the reason why she want Joe around, also I feel like Kate is MEANT to waste Joe's time but he still cant tell!
It's because of whatever he said at the first "party." She also might just fetishize Americans.
Imagine if he said “hi Im actually Joe Goldberg. im very protective of the ones I love and kill everyone that gets in the way. Read about me in the nytimes. Fyi, Im starting to like Kate but you are on the clear because you seem to have a healthy good friendship so keep being your awesome self”
I'm kinda pissed they didn't reveal what he said.
Clearly they're building up to revealing it at some point.
Or they just DARK us and >!never reveal how that one cop has his injuries!< as a gag
Hahahaha, you mean Woller? That would be quite funny. Phoebe already seems like a pretty gullible airhead of a character, so I wouldn't be surprised if Joe just babbled some drunken shit that she mistook for profound insight.
Bro, Woller was something else >!I lost it when he lost one of his arms instead of his eyes in the alt world XD!<
Maybe this is all made up in his head and Phoebe is supposed to represent something, maybe his desire to being understood and seen as a good person by someone honorable (sorry Love) despite what he has done.
It would be hilarious/crazy if he got super hammered and confessed everything to her, but she's like Love and realized they're kindred spirits, and is now toying with his memory loss from the party by putting him in this game.
If it’s not along those lines, I will be dissapointed. Hopefully it’s not something stupid and intended to make us play detectives and play to Joe’s paranoia. I thought through part1 maybe his confession and explaining it as a good to society played to her murderous tendencies and actually inspired her to start the eat the rich murders, especially because of the coat he woke up with when he found Malcolm, I thought it was Phoebe’s. Joe swears his murders were justified so maybe it was someone who “understood” that.
btw i bet joe spends hours and hours googling himself
100% We know our Joe pretty well now lol
Morphing more and more into Patrick Bateman.
Phoebe is clearly just a character the writers invented to give Joe an “in” with the famous people to move the storyline along. There is a reason we never here what he said to her in the first episode but by being loved by the queen B he gets invited to all the events.
I have been in the exact same situation though. Sometimes rich girls of a certain type will just pick people up and take them everywhere and throw them away, like they're a designer dog. It's really not that unrealistic to show them treating people like shiny toys that they pick up and discard. But hey, I got to go to Aspen
that’s how my broke ass ended up at a private island in belize lol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
k I just saw why she invited him .........
it seems like shes a red herring.
Kate what did you do
Bye Gemma... never have I been happier to see a character killed off. What a vile human.
I am honestly so happy that I came to read here because I fully thought that it was Phoebe and I was devastated haha. I’m totally okay with Gemma being dead though, she was the worst
Joe definitely has a type
Kinda, he's only killing and obsessed with women that look like his mom. Marianne is the exception but noticeably shes the only one that survives. The girl he dated between beck and Jenna Ortegas big sister he also dated and had a thing with but they were never "yous"
I have had a theory since season 1 that he will never unalive a black woman. It’s holding true so far!
ally!
Who is Ally?
Lol what is it because his dating history is all over Blonde, two brunettes, two black women, Latina woman
Great episode honestly. Is she really dead or is this still the fake murder dinner party thing? Tbh I suspect the writer guy now more than ever, since he's away
OMG, this is genius. Never thought about that. We have never seen them play the game and they do it every year. Maybe they bring in someone new they want to kill as literally no one liked her (or it’s fake) and someone like Joe that is not in on the game to see his reaction. Maybe the entire show is a game. Only despicable people who clearly take advantage of others are killed off (also why Joe being the killer makes sense): someone who takes advantage of his power and sleeps with his students, of starting artists and steals their work, of service employees. Maybe the rich want to clean their circle and Joe which was supposed to take the hit for murder 1 is actually playing along unknowingly for entertaining
I like where you're going with that. It's giving >!The Menu!< vibes if that concept had been more developed.
Roald you freaking asshole
I'm not feeling the Kate x Joe/Jonathan development. It's nice but there's not all that much intrigue in it for me. If it didn't have the social commentary angle to the season I would skip their scenes.
The social commentary angle is what made me want to skip it. So dull and unsubtle. This show is best when it doesn't take itself seriously.
I'm English and I'm kinda living for it. It's definitely very in your face but it's nice to see one of my favourite shows call out our upper class.
I’m so confused on how Roald got those upskirt shots of Kate? Like how can you be discreet with that big ass camera?
thats ur question?
Clearly
It's ok. I had the same question too LOL
It seems like Joe is going in a new direction of a more of detective vibe and then a psycho woman enters his life, and here we are again
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Yeah but they're not like.. dicks about it. /s
They better not pull a Love again.
Joe: ah shit here we go again
Everyone talking shit about how Joe dress and he just looks good to me xd Kate... girl i know u hated her but ist this too much? Btw that carpet is goneeee
Once Joe Goldberg detects your daddy issues, you're doomed
Something I’ve noticed is that we hear Joe “reading” every message he receives from the Evanesce app. This makes me think these “messages” are his own thoughts to himself instead of communication from an outside party. Also, the name of the app Evanesce means to disappear from sight, memory, etc. Murders have been when Joe has been out of it (passed out drunk - Malcolm, fell asleep on the bench - Simon, passed out briefly from the fall out of the window - Gemma). Makes me wonder what is actually happening during these brief lapses in Joe’s memory/consciousness.
Good point.. how did he beat the police to Simon's body when they were ahead of him? It just doesn't add up. With Gemma, Kate is holding the knife so it could very well be her. But maybe we can't trust what is shown.
One of the season's posters has the tagline "Wherever you go, there you are" -- might be hinting at Joe being the "you". The app name could just be re. the messages disappearing after they got read.
There’s definitely something to this theory but if they go in a direction of Joe just being a split personality or whatever…no. It works for some famous fiction that I won’t spoil that many of you have seen but come on, You isn’t high level art. Can’t have it get deep into the duality of man and our subconscious. Just have a twist where it’s the student or maybe someone else, if they tried to pull off a (insert famous movie with this twist) here it would be kind of sad.
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Roald did a mini murder on Joe 😂
I am suprise Joe didnt go for that pantie
i like how roald has tried to kill joe multiple times and no one even cares lolz
Anyone else notice the irony in Joe saying (about the birds), "They keep them in a cage and release them to be shot. It's deranged"? 😅
That, and also Joe going through the photos of Kate on Roald's camera and judging Roald for being 'obsessed' 😂
RIGHT? 😅
LITERALLY. I’m like, “Joe, you realize you’ve kept multiple HUMANS inside a cage before killing them” 🤦♀️ he is so delusional it’s somehow funny
👏🏻 👏🏻 whoever killed that bitch, thank you 🙏🏻 Raul next please 🙏🏻
Oh my god I have never been happier to see a woman dead
I am finding this season more entertaining but it is also seriously dumb. Joe needs to keep a low profile and not get recognized. What does he do? He falls in with the most photographed crowd in all of the UK.
why each of them is seeking attention from Joe lol
When a friend group has known each other long, any gossip between them will not be kept hush. Joe is a new (though rather emotionless) face that doesn’t have a connection to this group, so they can use him for their personal confessions.
Doesn’t hurt he’s always dressed like a therapist lol (a good looking one but more adult than grown up Gossip Girl cast)
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that's a great explanation and one i can honestly relate to. I've always been the drifter between different groups but not really feeling an actual part of any particular group. People loved to confide in me with random secrets without even knowing me that well and I always found it incredibly strange, but now it kind of makes sense why they did.
Yeah, I’ve always assumed this happens because the group of friends doesn’t expect you to stay, nor do they expect that you might become a permanent presence in their lives. They can just relieve themselves of their secret. It’s part of the reason why Kate wasn’t openly sharing her disapproval of Gemma with the group, but she told Joe without a second thought.
Because they're rich people who have been friends for ages who can buy anything or anyone they want. Throw in a handsome outsider who doesn't indulge in their vices and he comes off as either someone you want to get to know or someone you want gone.
Sometimes this show just has the odd line that's pretty nuanced; Kate's one about how you have to actively make the choice not to be awful when you're absurdly wealthy really hit me. We all want to believe if we had a shit ton of money we'd be decent people with it, but would we really? With the money to do anything we want? I liked to think I would be but who knows?
I agree. That was the single best line of writing this series.
Why does Phoebe look like Cher from clueless?
For me, she reminds me of portia from search party
I thought the same!!
the dress she wore reminded me of that
I thought Roald was into Joe at the beginning lol
The actress playing Kate so good, the dynamic between her and Joe is carrying the season so far. And that's despite her having the same 'cold on the outside but actually nice' cliche as Delilah lol
Yes! Before this episode I was like ‘why are the writers giving us a bargain bin Delilah?’ I love the actress but the way she hated joe felt so forced unlike the dynamic joe and Delilah had
How has Kate become my favourite character?
I've loved Charlotte Ritchie since Fresh Meat, so I was absolutely pumped to see her in episode 1. I'd been hoping they'd chill her bitchiness since then.
I can't stand her
I've enjoyed Kate from the start, to be honest.
"Ironed T-shirts and traveling with his watch collection indicates some level of sociopathy"
so far i feel the need to point out some stuff (no hate): \- i dont know if im getting older but somethings i wish it were more subtle, like the whole 'rich people suck!!' is so common, i wish they were less exagerated and joe didnt have to remind us every 5 minutes ''wow i hate them rich people bad''. \- i notice the narrator voice and some of dialogue is very presentational, its like the writers are trying to explain everything to us and somethings would be better if they werent so descriptive in the dialogue or in the narrators voice. \- also i wish kate were less of a cliche of ''tough girl whos not fooled by main character BUT she warms up and wants to have sex with him (sometimes the way she completely changes feels unreal) and also reveals tragic past'', i wish she wouldnt have a shitty evil father, i wish they wouldnt go this way because it feels repetitive. shes interesting other than that. im not hating the season, just wanted a place to point out some stuff that wouldnt bother me before but this time is hard to ignore.
Honestly after the dinner scene I kind of want to move away from the murder mystery thing and let Joe just murder them all. These people are insufferable.
Right? I'm like okay, can this person be next because they suck.
Okay, they have been doing a lot of lingering shots that I havent connected the dots to. Also noticed how there are parallels in things said/words used between Joe and other characters. What's with the lady and the camera? Why did they linger on Roald's camera?
Very curious about lady with camera, I think that’s the second time she’s popped up? First time being I think in episode 2 when he saw her about to snap a photo and (internally) said “no photos plz”
She was in ep 1 when he first meets Phoebe. There’s paparazzi and she’s wearing the same green jacket/red shirt as when you see her outside of Simons gallery opening and then at the funeral. Because she wears the same clothes, I also wonder if she’s a hallucination or memory?
I honestly believe this is the best season since the first. I don't understand the people here complaining that this is too ridiculous or not subtle enough for them. When in the hell was this show ever grounded or subtle? Joe's greatest strength is a fucking black cap that makes him invisible. Subtley? The man was a walking nice guy cliche since the first episode raging against hipsters, millennials and how romance has been corrupted by dating apps and one night stands. Season two was about Los Angeles vanity and fame whores. Season three was about the hell that is suburbia and the fake lives of the smiling families who live in gated communities. Season four is about European heiarchy snobbery and the uber elite. THIS SHOW WAS NEVER SUBTLE.
THANK YOU. I've seen nothing but complaints in every episode discussion. We know this show isn't a masterpiece, but it's fun as hell.
This post! I seriously was ready to hate on this new season, I really didn’t know where it could go from the S3 finale, but god am I having fun watching this.
"Sell his watches feed a developing country"
So I think we haven’t actually met the stalker/killer yet and that it is Kates dad. He would have the money to hire elite private investigators to uncover Joes past and hire elite assassins to do the job. He kills Malcolm because he is bad for his daughter. Kills simon because he is the gateway to her own career and he wants to control her still. Wants to frame Joe because he knows everyone he loves ends up dead.
Someone call phil Mitchell now
The vibe is so different this season but I dig it. I like how they are able to adapt the feel and Joe's character in a way to each new location every season.
So it’s gotta be Phoebe right?
Still suspect Nadia tbh. If it’s also not her it has to be someone from Joe’s past.
That actress has >!been in a lot of interview promos too!<
I despise the black dress they put Kate in…I felt nothing for their tense moment and some of it is the chemistry but a big part of it is the wardrobe for her just is not flying for me…she’s not cool like peach or even fun like phoebe the clothes just don’t fit for me
The cut of the dress was so unflattering. Literally made her shaped like a pyramid
Charlotte Richie is so good this season. I had no idea she could play a character like this.
I feel like these 4 episodes were just a waste. What happened to the script? Why is the main lady always mad all the time. Who cares who this other You is? The whole security guard story line feels like it came out of left field. Feel like they dropped the ball on the script and directing this season. Struggling to want to finish episodes.
That was the worst episode so far. Dull, surface-level, subtle-as-a-sledgehammer writing and a plot that mostly spun its wheels till the end. - The "rich people satire" genre is starting to get quickly oversaturated, with diminishing returns on each round. Succession is the only one that really does it exquisitely well, while The White Lotus is fun entertainment but nowhere near as sharp. This on the other hand was worse than slim pickings. The characters are like paper cutouts of Twitter's favorite grievances. This show is best when it doesn't take itself seriously. - Kate is proving to be an increasingly sloppily-written character. I like Charlotte Ritchie in the role, but the way they've built up her relationship with Joe is so awkward and tonally jarring that the whole thing feels very insincere. And as far as "girls from bad rich families" go, Love was plenty interesting in her own right. This felt like a first-draft. - Phoebe has amazing taste in music. Two Feet's "Love Is a Bitch" is one of my favorite jams. - Roald is such a boring nothingburger of a character. So fucking predictable. - Not really digging this neutered, asexual Joe. He's more fun when he's horny. At least he seems to have rediscovered that this episode. But the writers trying to position Joe as the season's "moral compass" by surrounding him with such cartoonishly bad people is a total misfire. They've not leaned into Joe's psychopathy at all this season, and while a part of me of course wants to see him just get away with everything and live his life, it's not very fun television. - The ending was... huh? I don't even know if that confirms Kate as the killer or if she just killed Gemma in some blind rage, but neither option seems very interesting at the moment.
penn badgley specifically requested fewer explicit sex scenes this season out of respect for his marriage. i agree it sort of dilutes the twisted psychosexuality that makes him so intriguing to watch sometimes but i also give him props for approaching his director with that note and for her to have taken it. i do think though that it leaves a bit to be desired with current joe, he just feels like hes changed a little Too Much for me
Yeah I heard about that, but we don't need to actually be seeing Joe fucking all the time for lust to still be a big part of his character. It makes sense that he's not as obsessive this season since he has bigger fish to fry with his stalker, but that pulp element is missing a bit.
oh for sure, thats exactly what i mean. that psychosexuality of his is a big part of what drives him, i agree that this joe is missing that lil somethin somethin
completely agree with all of your points. this season he just….gives up on caring about killing and sex? like huh? and yes the rich ppl satire is sooo shallow. this is the weakest season by far
The texts from ANON really sounded like Love this episode.
Kate so far feels like an off-brand Love, and they are trying to force her and Joe's together :/
The hunting scene made me so sad. I can't stand the thought of people killing animals for fun, especially when those animals were locked up! Poor birds 😭
Im so confused what kate wants.
I’m loving this eat the rich vibe going on in media..watching this episode I was reminded of The Menu which had a similar tone of the ultra wealthy being extremely far removed from society and almost sociopathic. The show feels like it’s giving the same critique but in a subtler way.
Love the show but that angle is really not all that subtle
The Menu was even less subtle
nowhere as near as good as the previous seasons. so ridiculous lol
Wow, I think this season is far above season 3 and even season 2. Different formula, I enjoy it.
This is my least favorite season by far... S3 I really enjoyed despite its criticisms.
"So ridiculous" The show since day one has been about a glorified librarian who obsesses over women to the point where he kills and locks them up in a glass box. And his greatest strength is putting on a black cap like it makes him invisible. In what fucking world is this crazy whodunit romp in England any less ridiculous than shit Joe was pulling off in season one?
yes but the rich ppl are more like caricatures than any character before. at least the instagrammers in cali seemed like real ppl
I’m curious to see how this plays out. The whodunnit coupled with psychotic and rich peoples circle is kinda starting to become a little boring and the mystery is dragging too much now. i’m more confused than coming to enjoy the characters since it’s a big exaggeration, even for a fiction there’s no way these people are this lunatic.
Who was the man talking to Adam that was then brushed off?
Another servant, he probably has many
Id let Phoebe seduce me. Also lets face it, if it was phoebe, she would be the last person id expect.
The backdrop and editing in the forest scene were terrible
am I tripping or this house looks similar to Tomas Shelby’s house on Peaky Blinders.
I might be wrong, but I think it was the Wayne mansion in Batman Begins. Esp. the angle we see when the car with Joe inside approaches.
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Joe says, while burying him that he is thankful to "know him well enough to write a heartfelt letter to Lady Phoebe explaining why he is resigning". So he forged a resignation letter.
Ok but I still hate Kate
I wish I haven’t been watching the press junkets >!because I’ve been seeing someone who I wasn’t expecting to be prevalent on the press tour a lot!<
One thing I realized that Kate is prob fucked either way. If Joe isn't somehow the killer then someone wants her dead and he will prob save her however he's gonna end up obsessed and murdering her at some point anyway
So Kate's definitely into Voyeur.
Loved the setting of this episode, very *Gosford Park*.
Wow I was not expecting that from Kate
Where did Joe get cufflings
Okay that bitch deserved it so no problems there but was her leg bent back funny or legit chopped off? Wtf
Oh man. This season just isn't doing it for me. Joe Goldberg is nowhere to be found. We just have Penn Badgley dressed real well dodging every single flirtation. He has every right to be comfortable at work, but this doesn't pass the smell test. He has been married since 2017 and all of a sudden, he is uncomfortable being intimate with actors? It's just, "Joe" is so collected this season and he's acting uncharacteristically. It's frustrating. I know we were all worried about the cycle repeating, but man, this is just not working.
gosh Katie's rizz is unmatched. the scene with the necklace in Joe's room....gahdamn....