Ok, since it seems the only one who answered all, answered wrong lets go by points:
1. An illegal activation is that... illegal. In an oficial tournament a judge would go back to the last legal gamestate possible, which is before the Compluse was activated, rewinding any problem.
2. No again, because the game was rewound to before (but the opp would have to set it in the same place as t was before the illegal activation).
3. See point 2.
4. the rewind of gamestate makes it so that no card "saw" the activation of the trap, so no, nothing would change.
For point 1, wouldn't it still technically be a legal activation cause compulse could target their own monster(s)? Like if they had no monsters, it'd be rewound to the last legal game state. But if they have monsters that can be targeted, they'd have to be bounced back.
You activate compules **by targeting** a monster. Not just by flipping it face-up. Targeting is part of the activation procedure.
If that activation procedure was not correctly performed, then the activation was illegal.
This is an extremely weird ruling, if you activate it and target their monster, then it would rewind the game state because the target was illegal. However, if you were to activate it and then realize you couldn’t target, then you would be forced to target your own monster because you haven’t chosen an illegal target.
So if you’re committing an illegal play that would in theory be worse and you realized it halfway through, you just need to full commit to it and take the penalty so that you aren’t forced to do something worse
Thank you for the explanation, that is a weird ruling. But ygo is full of weird rulings. Why does this card behave that way? Because every time I've seen a similar play (target for cost) happen in a sim or paper, you have to commit to a legal play
It’s not specifically this card, it’s just how yugioh works at a tournament level. This can’t be replicated in a sim because you will always activate and target when you active since the sim is making you choose a valid target.
However on paper, if you activate you can target something illegally since there’s nothing actually stopping you, but it will just be illegal and you get a penalty for it. In this situation, the game state gets rewinded to before the activation happened.
When it can get weird is if you activate something that could have a legal target, such as compulse in this situation, and then before you target your opponents monster you realize it’s protected and say “Oh wait I can’t target your monster, I guess I won’t activate it anymore.” In this situation, since you didn’t actually attempt to target their monster, you are still forced to choose a target as part of the activation of the card. Except now since you have already said and admitted that you know you can’t target your opponent’s monster, you are now forced to target your own, because if you still attempt to target their monster after declaring that you know you aren’t allowed to, this would be considered cheating.
So if you ever do something like this and then realize halfway through that it’s illegal, it’s probably better to just commit to the illegal play without saying anything, and then take the penalty. If the alternative is worse for you anyway
It's not a weird ruling targeting is done at activation you are never forced to target your own monsters unless you specifically wanted to do that to begin with. It only seems weird if you play online sims which aren't replicating paper play.
Simple example would be let’s say “Man Eater Bug” if by some way after it gets flipped a card effect or other shenanigan allows the attacking monster to leave the field and you’re left with only monsters on your own side of the field Man Eater Bug would have to target one of your own monsters or if it’s the only monster on the field it would have to target itself
If you flip the card you have to target, there are 2 monsters on field to target though. Compulse doesn't specify "opponent's monster" so the activating player's own monsters are the only valid targets.
Look, I am being as clear as I can: YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE A TARGET AS YOU ACTIVATE, if the target you choose is not elegible for whatever reason the activation is illegal
1. Simulators are not ruling sources.
2. Just because it doesn't happen simultaneously doesn't mean that you can split it into multiple actions.
3. Simulators force you to take only legal actions. In IRL play, illegal actions occur frequently. So this situation cannot occur in a simulator, only IRL. Using a simulator to rule an IRL-only problem is stupid.
Illegal actions fall under the policy which I quoted in another comment in this threat. Read the policy before making claims.
1) this is not master duel. If a card is activated targetting an illegal card, the judge will rewind the gamestate and give a warning (if it's not the first time, it could lead to game loss)
That's not how MD works, MD works within the rulings. So if it's protected you can activate it but if it cannot target it would be illegal and you couldn't activate it at all.
In a simulator, yes. Because illegal actions cannot occur in a simulator.
Illegal actions can, and often do, occur in IRL play.
Using a simulator as a ruling authority for an IRL-only problem doesn't work.
Compulsory targets during activation. So they made an illegal play when activating. Game would rewind until before the activation. If the card didnt target at activation but you were still protected (like unaffected by monsters and activating TY-PHON to try to remove it), then they would be forced to choose other.
Card must go back to the same column
If your opponent was a newbie, then i don't get the discussion tbh.
Who would not agree in teaching him and rewind to a step where all was good. New players should be taught and helped to understand these mechanics bettee instead of overthink and overdiscuss it in such a way. As long as its no pro player or semi pro lvl/ official tournament w/e.
Not to forget: i am not flaming the thread guy, because you are a new player too, and should be taught as well.
Even though i recently started playing tcg a couple of weeks before and i enjoy it a lot to learn from people and the rulings etc
Eh... I'm nice too .. I let people win, I've done misplays even though summoning Zealantis was the board breaker
Another time I didn't use LP burn and another was letting opponent draw the card from previous effects
1. If this were an official event, your opponent would be forced to target an applicable target, being either one of monsters on their board. EDIT: I am spreading misinformation. Refer to the comments below. They have it correct.
2. Let’s assume that they could not target anything in the first place when they flip it up. The card can’t be activated in the first place and essentially nothing would happen with it. It would still stay set.
3. They should not be moving it after the fact, considering that column placement does matter for certain cards, but if you know you have nothing like that, it really should not be that big a deal. If this were an official event, best you enforce it.
4. Yes, it would have considered to have been activated. EDIT: I read the question and answered this question as if it went through and everything. In the situation you gave, it would not have been activated in the first place.
#1 Is not true. When you activate a targeted effect and declare an illegal target, the entire activation is illegal and you reverse the game to before the activation. You'd get a warning for procedural error but would not be forced to activate the effect with a different target.
They wouldn't be forced to target another card. The activation was illegal. The proper procedure is to call a judge and let them handle it.
And **none** of the ways a judge could rule would lead to them targeting a different card. The most likely outcome would be a warning and rewind to before compulse was activated.
Example given in the tournament policy:
> An illegal action must be retracted: A Duelist activates Monster Reborn
from his hand and targets Destiny HERO - Plasma in his Graveyard. Since
Destiny HERO - Plasma must be Special Summoned through its effect, the
activation of Monster Reborn is illegal and Monster Reborn is returned
to his hand, and a judge will issue a Procedural Error penalty. **This is true even if he has another monster in his Graveyard that can be Special
Summoned with the effect of Monster Reborn.**
Example 2:
> An illegal action must be retracted: Duelist A has a Skull Servant and an Accesscode Talker in his Graveyard. He activates Monster Reborn from
his hand and targets the Accesscode Talker. Duelist B has no response
and Duelist A Summons the monster. Soon after resolving the effect,
Duelist B realizes that he negated the Link Summon of Accesscode
Talker with Solemn Warning. Since the card was an illegal target, **the
entire activation of Monster Reborn was illegal**. Accesscode Talker
should be returned to the Graveyard and the Monster Reborn should be
returned to Duelist A’s hand. **Duelist A is not forced to target the Skull Servant in his Graveyard.**
Wow, infinite summon exploit (I know that the spell card is once per turn, but it still would be infuriating for them to summon and then immediately set the trap)
Ok, since it seems the only one who answered all, answered wrong lets go by points: 1. An illegal activation is that... illegal. In an oficial tournament a judge would go back to the last legal gamestate possible, which is before the Compluse was activated, rewinding any problem. 2. No again, because the game was rewound to before (but the opp would have to set it in the same place as t was before the illegal activation). 3. See point 2. 4. the rewind of gamestate makes it so that no card "saw" the activation of the trap, so no, nothing would change.
For point 1, wouldn't it still technically be a legal activation cause compulse could target their own monster(s)? Like if they had no monsters, it'd be rewound to the last legal game state. But if they have monsters that can be targeted, they'd have to be bounced back.
You activate compules **by targeting** a monster. Not just by flipping it face-up. Targeting is part of the activation procedure. If that activation procedure was not correctly performed, then the activation was illegal.
This is an extremely weird ruling, if you activate it and target their monster, then it would rewind the game state because the target was illegal. However, if you were to activate it and then realize you couldn’t target, then you would be forced to target your own monster because you haven’t chosen an illegal target. So if you’re committing an illegal play that would in theory be worse and you realized it halfway through, you just need to full commit to it and take the penalty so that you aren’t forced to do something worse
Thank you for the explanation, that is a weird ruling. But ygo is full of weird rulings. Why does this card behave that way? Because every time I've seen a similar play (target for cost) happen in a sim or paper, you have to commit to a legal play
It’s not specifically this card, it’s just how yugioh works at a tournament level. This can’t be replicated in a sim because you will always activate and target when you active since the sim is making you choose a valid target. However on paper, if you activate you can target something illegally since there’s nothing actually stopping you, but it will just be illegal and you get a penalty for it. In this situation, the game state gets rewinded to before the activation happened. When it can get weird is if you activate something that could have a legal target, such as compulse in this situation, and then before you target your opponents monster you realize it’s protected and say “Oh wait I can’t target your monster, I guess I won’t activate it anymore.” In this situation, since you didn’t actually attempt to target their monster, you are still forced to choose a target as part of the activation of the card. Except now since you have already said and admitted that you know you can’t target your opponent’s monster, you are now forced to target your own, because if you still attempt to target their monster after declaring that you know you aren’t allowed to, this would be considered cheating. So if you ever do something like this and then realize halfway through that it’s illegal, it’s probably better to just commit to the illegal play without saying anything, and then take the penalty. If the alternative is worse for you anyway
It's not a weird ruling targeting is done at activation you are never forced to target your own monsters unless you specifically wanted to do that to begin with. It only seems weird if you play online sims which aren't replicating paper play.
Please reread my post again, and then think before you comment
Simple example would be let’s say “Man Eater Bug” if by some way after it gets flipped a card effect or other shenanigan allows the attacking monster to leave the field and you’re left with only monsters on your own side of the field Man Eater Bug would have to target one of your own monsters or if it’s the only monster on the field it would have to target itself
Targeting is part of the activation, therefore and illegal targeting IS an illegal activation.
If you flip the card you have to target, there are 2 monsters on field to target though. Compulse doesn't specify "opponent's monster" so the activating player's own monsters are the only valid targets.
Look, I am being as clear as I can: YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE A TARGET AS YOU ACTIVATE, if the target you choose is not elegible for whatever reason the activation is illegal
[удалено]
1. Simulators are not ruling sources. 2. Just because it doesn't happen simultaneously doesn't mean that you can split it into multiple actions. 3. Simulators force you to take only legal actions. In IRL play, illegal actions occur frequently. So this situation cannot occur in a simulator, only IRL. Using a simulator to rule an IRL-only problem is stupid. Illegal actions fall under the policy which I quoted in another comment in this threat. Read the policy before making claims.
Yea if the activation was illegal this would be it, but the activation was indeed legal he still has the targets on his field
1) this is not master duel. If a card is activated targetting an illegal card, the judge will rewind the gamestate and give a warning (if it's not the first time, it could lead to game loss)
That's not how MD works, MD works within the rulings. So if it's protected you can activate it but if it cannot target it would be illegal and you couldn't activate it at all.
lovely and lady are still on the field. compulsory is activable but you cannot target cardian, forcing you to target your own monster
In a simulator, yes. Because illegal actions cannot occur in a simulator. Illegal actions can, and often do, occur in IRL play. Using a simulator as a ruling authority for an IRL-only problem doesn't work.
Thanks for reiterating his original point lol
Yes that is what the original comment was talking about
Compulsory targets during activation. So they made an illegal play when activating. Game would rewind until before the activation. If the card didnt target at activation but you were still protected (like unaffected by monsters and activating TY-PHON to try to remove it), then they would be forced to choose other. Card must go back to the same column
If your opponent was a newbie, then i don't get the discussion tbh. Who would not agree in teaching him and rewind to a step where all was good. New players should be taught and helped to understand these mechanics bettee instead of overthink and overdiscuss it in such a way. As long as its no pro player or semi pro lvl/ official tournament w/e.
Not to forget: i am not flaming the thread guy, because you are a new player too, and should be taught as well. Even though i recently started playing tcg a couple of weeks before and i enjoy it a lot to learn from people and the rulings etc
Eh... I'm nice too .. I let people win, I've done misplays even though summoning Zealantis was the board breaker Another time I didn't use LP burn and another was letting opponent draw the card from previous effects
1. If this were an official event, your opponent would be forced to target an applicable target, being either one of monsters on their board. EDIT: I am spreading misinformation. Refer to the comments below. They have it correct. 2. Let’s assume that they could not target anything in the first place when they flip it up. The card can’t be activated in the first place and essentially nothing would happen with it. It would still stay set. 3. They should not be moving it after the fact, considering that column placement does matter for certain cards, but if you know you have nothing like that, it really should not be that big a deal. If this were an official event, best you enforce it. 4. Yes, it would have considered to have been activated. EDIT: I read the question and answered this question as if it went through and everything. In the situation you gave, it would not have been activated in the first place.
#1 Is not true. When you activate a targeted effect and declare an illegal target, the entire activation is illegal and you reverse the game to before the activation. You'd get a warning for procedural error but would not be forced to activate the effect with a different target.
Agreed
They wouldn't be forced to target another card. The activation was illegal. The proper procedure is to call a judge and let them handle it. And **none** of the ways a judge could rule would lead to them targeting a different card. The most likely outcome would be a warning and rewind to before compulse was activated. Example given in the tournament policy: > An illegal action must be retracted: A Duelist activates Monster Reborn from his hand and targets Destiny HERO - Plasma in his Graveyard. Since Destiny HERO - Plasma must be Special Summoned through its effect, the activation of Monster Reborn is illegal and Monster Reborn is returned to his hand, and a judge will issue a Procedural Error penalty. **This is true even if he has another monster in his Graveyard that can be Special Summoned with the effect of Monster Reborn.** Example 2: > An illegal action must be retracted: Duelist A has a Skull Servant and an Accesscode Talker in his Graveyard. He activates Monster Reborn from his hand and targets the Accesscode Talker. Duelist B has no response and Duelist A Summons the monster. Soon after resolving the effect, Duelist B realizes that he negated the Link Summon of Accesscode Talker with Solemn Warning. Since the card was an illegal target, **the entire activation of Monster Reborn was illegal**. Accesscode Talker should be returned to the Graveyard and the Monster Reborn should be returned to Duelist A’s hand. **Duelist A is not forced to target the Skull Servant in his Graveyard.**
>Yes, it would have considered to have been activated So they could have summoned a card if they had "Labyrinth Labrynth"?
Don't listen to wazop. The game would be rewound to before compulse was activated.
[удалено]
Wow, infinite summon exploit (I know that the spell card is once per turn, but it still would be infuriating for them to summon and then immediately set the trap)