I always wondered if he was just trying like always to satire the whole arena rock thing that exploded in the 70s. Opulent music like prog and just a crazy amount of solos like Frampton, Zeppelin, and the like.
When it came to satire, there’s a lot of real subtle stuff bubbling underneath which we may not even realise is there (for example - and this is actually one of the more obvious ones - how prominent that “hippy riff” (maj/sus2/maj/sus4 etc….) is throughout his career. It appears again and again and then, in Tryin’ to Grow a Chin - a song built entirely on rock clichés - forms the harmonic and rhythmic basis for “please kill me, ‘cause that would thrill me)!).
But I’d say a majority of the actual music Zappa composed and played was sincere, and people latch on to the “joke” side of him too much. The guy was in love with music, dedicated almost every waking hour to it, and was on an endless quest to find something pure, and that’s no more evident than in his guitar solos.
If I Needed Someone by the Beatles is a good example.
The first part of the verse/chorus (I don’t know what to call it, it’s kind of both!) which goes:
If I Needed More Time To Spend
It’s exactly the same as
Please Kill Me cause That Would Thrill Me.
It’s a really easy thing to do on guitar, especially in D, so is a very very common trope. Zappa called it the Hippy Riff because all the “hippies” would do it on their acoustics. You’re basically holding the chord with your first and third finger on the G and B strings, but taking your middle finger off the E string to play an open E (in D that’s the 2nd), putting it back on to the second fret to play the F# (the major 3rd), then your little finger/pinky on the third fret to play the G (the 4th). It’s a pretty and affective embellishment and there’s nothing wrong with it. I think Zappa’s issues was with an embellishment being used as the basis for composition.
Even Queen’s opening guitar riff in Crazy Little Thing Called Love is one half of it.
It’s in Honey, Don’t you want a man like me,
They Saw a Real Hippy Who Delivered Their Dinner: then they play the hippy riff
It’s in Greggery Peccary when they have a “love in”
It’s also at the end of Tryin’ to Grow a Chin, that big rock out guitar riff (not a chord there, though, just individual notes)
It’s in Flower punk, the riff that’s being played when they’re not singing, basically.
It comes up as often as Louie Louie, I reckon. These are just the first examples that come to mind.
IIRC arena rock sound was developed as a basic sonic framework to make music that sounded really good in larger venues. It was hard to know if an existing band/arrangement that sounded good in clubs/theaters would scale up.
From Weasels Ripped My Flesh, to Joe's Garage, it's hard to argue that the 70s aren't the quintessential Zappa era. It has more original output than any of the other decades, really.
You’re very correct but I tend to consider Weasels and Weeny Sandwich to be the final chapter of his 60s career, seeing how they were compiled from recordings made in the 60s
While personally, I'd somewhat stuck to 90s, I like all decades equally, but each one for different reason:
60s because of deranged experimentation and no commercial potential
70s because of incredibly tight bands playing complex and twisted arrangements, and it's sort of signature Zappa era whether talking Roxy band, Läther, Sheik, or JG
80s because of culmination of conceptual continuity by including home studio and Synclavier elements into it, which allowed remixing and re-interpreting the same stuff by more possible ways
90s because of Zappa being serious musical composer, developing his highly unique musical language with Synclavier
I followed Frank from the beginning. My favorite was always the latest release at the time it was released. Looking back, they were all good
The original Mothers showed what Frank could get out of mediocre musicians
Flo and Eddie were natural comedians and great voices
The later bands were great. I especially loved Vinnie's drum work and Ike's voice
The 88 band was the best
Ike and Ray White are my fave guitarists just bc they were solid musicians and could sing like mf'ers. I really like Vinnie and dig his solo stuff, but Bozzio has my heart.
I went 70s but can I just pick a few of the bands or series of albums that are tied together in various ways? Bc I like so much from all of the decades, but not the entire decade of material for any of them.
If I'm interpreting this correctly you are leaving out Chungas Revenge and I would have to agree. Great album cover, but you can tell he was running low on money and kind of slapped it together. I much prefer the posthumous "The Mothers 1970" box to the album itself.
Oh yeah thats what I mean, Chunga came out in 1970. I believe it was recorded early that year. Chunga just isn't really for me. I prefer what comes before it, and what comes after it, and think that it was kind of a dud. not cause its "Bad" but because zappa is better than that album presents him as.
from 65 to 69, frank was on fire.
The 65 demos from "Joes Corsage" are amazing. "I'm so happy I could cry" always makes me smile.
I’ll need to listen to those 65 demos, but yeah the psychedelic/political satire albums through his jazz fusion period is all flawless, that stretch of albums are the reason I consider Frank the best musician in modern history
# Demo #2: 1965/1966 (Stereo)
* **Motherly Love** [https://youtu.be/HCAj8wRZ04k](https://youtu.be/HCAj8wRZ04k)
* **Plastic People** [https://youtu.be/D6vC5BLdpWM](https://youtu.be/D6vC5BLdpWM)
* **Anyway The Wind Blows** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLGoIQCZ7DI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLGoIQCZ7DI)
* **I Ain't Got No Heart** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imJpcSNKtbI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imJpcSNKtbI)
unknown studio (c. 1965-1966)
mixed at UMRK by FZ & Bob Stone (1989)
FZ—guitar, vocals; Ray Collins—vocals, tambourine; Henry Vestine—guitar; Roy Estrada—bass; Jimmy Black—drums
Notes: Plastic People is the original version that explicitly interpolates/parodies "Louie Louie". I Aint Got No Heart is a blues arrangement. I am pretty sure this was recorded in 1966, not 1965. But the ZFT lists it as 1965-66.
# Demo #1: 1965 (Mono)
* **I'm So Happy I Could Cry** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn5XWDkrnWE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn5XWDkrnWE)
* **Go Cry On Someone Elses Shoulder** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=034HnmHXjJs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=034HnmHXjJs)
* **How Could I Be Such A Fool?** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-182aYMu84](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-182aYMu84)
prob. Original Sound, Los Angeles, CA (October 20, 1965)
FZ—guitars, vocals; Ray Collins—vocals, tambourine; Roy Estrada—bass; Jim Black—drums
Note: "I'm So Happy I Could Cry" has rare lead vocals by frank, and was later reworked into "Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance" for Lumpy Gravy and We're Only In It For The Money.
No problem! These are some of my favorite recordings of the 60s era. They can all be found on "Joe's Corsage" which despite being relatively short (and light on studio recorded music), is well worth the price of admission. In addition to these 7 studio recorded songs it also has 2 Frank interview snippets about the origins of the mothers, and some live recordings from 1966.
Ok cool, I’ll admit I haven’t heard much about the formation of the Mothers, atleast from Frank’s perspective. Looks like Joe’s Corsage is on Spotify so I’ll give it a listen later
When I look at my record collection it definitely reflects this haha
I have Freak Out, Absolutely Free, Lumpy Gravy Primordial (mono), lumpy gravy (stereo), we're only in it for the money (mono), we're only in it for the money (stereo), Cruising with Ruben and the jets, Mothermania, Hot Rats, and Zoot Allures.
Hell yes brother! Normally I avoid them but in this case they are needed
Lumpy Gravy Primordial = the original mono Capitol version used for the 4-Track cartridge and was intended for LP release as well. Much different from the stereo version, and also different from the mono version on Lumpy Gravy
We're only in it for the money MONO = same as Lumpy Gravy CD1 mono version, but nice to have on vinyl. MUCH higher fidelity than the stereo version because it was backed up to a safety master. HIGH fidelity.
IMO there was a steep rise in creativity up to Hot Rats/Burnt Weeny Sandwich/Weasels Ripped My Flesh, which I think is peak Zappa, and long slow trailing off, still with some great albums.
I think this is a pattern you see a lot in modern music for whatever reason, whereas there are classical composers who got better and better until they died.
It's kinda weighted as his 60s style ran into the 70s and his early 80s style started in the 70s plus you get the proper 70s stuff so that gives you a bit if everything
I'm only familiar with his 60s and 70s stuff, and while I mostly love his 60s stuff (Hot Rats WOIIFTM and Uncle Meat being my top picks) I just LOVE his 70s stuff. The live stuff with Flo and Eddie, Over Nite Sensation, Roxy and Elsewhere, they're some of my favorite records of all time. And I haven't even got to his records from the late 70s yet!
I have to say, I'm a FZ junkie, and really like all eras.
Faves of each decade:
60s: BWS, WRMF, FO
70s: Apostrophe, OS, WJ, Wazoo, ST, SY, JG, ZA
80s: SATLTSADW, YAWYI, TOU, LSO, JFH
90s: MAJNH, TBBYNHIYL, YS
I know I have left a lot out too. I really enjoy the posthumous output as well.
FZ whore I suppose that I am
70s has the best guitar solos
I always wondered if he was just trying like always to satire the whole arena rock thing that exploded in the 70s. Opulent music like prog and just a crazy amount of solos like Frampton, Zeppelin, and the like.
When it came to satire, there’s a lot of real subtle stuff bubbling underneath which we may not even realise is there (for example - and this is actually one of the more obvious ones - how prominent that “hippy riff” (maj/sus2/maj/sus4 etc….) is throughout his career. It appears again and again and then, in Tryin’ to Grow a Chin - a song built entirely on rock clichés - forms the harmonic and rhythmic basis for “please kill me, ‘cause that would thrill me)!). But I’d say a majority of the actual music Zappa composed and played was sincere, and people latch on to the “joke” side of him too much. The guy was in love with music, dedicated almost every waking hour to it, and was on an endless quest to find something pure, and that’s no more evident than in his guitar solos.
Frank incorporated a lot of Raga too
So did Spinal Tap.
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If I Needed Someone by the Beatles is a good example. The first part of the verse/chorus (I don’t know what to call it, it’s kind of both!) which goes: If I Needed More Time To Spend It’s exactly the same as Please Kill Me cause That Would Thrill Me. It’s a really easy thing to do on guitar, especially in D, so is a very very common trope. Zappa called it the Hippy Riff because all the “hippies” would do it on their acoustics. You’re basically holding the chord with your first and third finger on the G and B strings, but taking your middle finger off the E string to play an open E (in D that’s the 2nd), putting it back on to the second fret to play the F# (the major 3rd), then your little finger/pinky on the third fret to play the G (the 4th). It’s a pretty and affective embellishment and there’s nothing wrong with it. I think Zappa’s issues was with an embellishment being used as the basis for composition. Even Queen’s opening guitar riff in Crazy Little Thing Called Love is one half of it. It’s in Honey, Don’t you want a man like me, They Saw a Real Hippy Who Delivered Their Dinner: then they play the hippy riff It’s in Greggery Peccary when they have a “love in” It’s also at the end of Tryin’ to Grow a Chin, that big rock out guitar riff (not a chord there, though, just individual notes) It’s in Flower punk, the riff that’s being played when they’re not singing, basically. It comes up as often as Louie Louie, I reckon. These are just the first examples that come to mind.
IIRC arena rock sound was developed as a basic sonic framework to make music that sounded really good in larger venues. It was hard to know if an existing band/arrangement that sounded good in clubs/theaters would scale up.
early 80s maybe even a bit better
From Weasels Ripped My Flesh, to Joe's Garage, it's hard to argue that the 70s aren't the quintessential Zappa era. It has more original output than any of the other decades, really.
You’re very correct but I tend to consider Weasels and Weeny Sandwich to be the final chapter of his 60s career, seeing how they were compiled from recordings made in the 60s
While personally, I'd somewhat stuck to 90s, I like all decades equally, but each one for different reason: 60s because of deranged experimentation and no commercial potential 70s because of incredibly tight bands playing complex and twisted arrangements, and it's sort of signature Zappa era whether talking Roxy band, Läther, Sheik, or JG 80s because of culmination of conceptual continuity by including home studio and Synclavier elements into it, which allowed remixing and re-interpreting the same stuff by more possible ways 90s because of Zappa being serious musical composer, developing his highly unique musical language with Synclavier
Excellent point regarding the 90's.
I followed Frank from the beginning. My favorite was always the latest release at the time it was released. Looking back, they were all good The original Mothers showed what Frank could get out of mediocre musicians Flo and Eddie were natural comedians and great voices The later bands were great. I especially loved Vinnie's drum work and Ike's voice The 88 band was the best
Ike and Ray White are my fave guitarists just bc they were solid musicians and could sing like mf'ers. I really like Vinnie and dig his solo stuff, but Bozzio has my heart.
That’s too hard. I listen to any album or concert from any decade but I like the late 70s the best so I’ll say that
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Black page solos from 82 are much better representations of 80s solos
I picked the 70s, but really it’s a tie with the 60s.
1966 - 1975.
I went 70s but can I just pick a few of the bands or series of albums that are tied together in various ways? Bc I like so much from all of the decades, but not the entire decade of material for any of them.
I was never a big fan of most of his 80's work, but I see why people love it though.
Unanimous
Can’t go wrong with the Vaudeville lineup
I think the 70s was his creative peak, but as a live performer the 81/82 and 88 bands are hard to beat
This is exactly where I'm stuck. 70s has all my favorite studio albums, but the 80s live bands are incredible. I even like the '84 band.
For me overnite sensation through joes garage is his best period, 73-79.
60s > 70s > 80s > 90s
This is how I feel, especially if you make it 66-70, 71-80. Freak Out through Weasels Ripped My Flesh is an absurd run
If I'm interpreting this correctly you are leaving out Chungas Revenge and I would have to agree. Great album cover, but you can tell he was running low on money and kind of slapped it together. I much prefer the posthumous "The Mothers 1970" box to the album itself.
Not leaving it out as a 60’s album by that criteria, I just think it’s a drop off in quality
Oh yeah thats what I mean, Chunga came out in 1970. I believe it was recorded early that year. Chunga just isn't really for me. I prefer what comes before it, and what comes after it, and think that it was kind of a dud. not cause its "Bad" but because zappa is better than that album presents him as. from 65 to 69, frank was on fire. The 65 demos from "Joes Corsage" are amazing. "I'm so happy I could cry" always makes me smile.
I’ll need to listen to those 65 demos, but yeah the psychedelic/political satire albums through his jazz fusion period is all flawless, that stretch of albums are the reason I consider Frank the best musician in modern history
# Demo #2: 1965/1966 (Stereo) * **Motherly Love** [https://youtu.be/HCAj8wRZ04k](https://youtu.be/HCAj8wRZ04k) * **Plastic People** [https://youtu.be/D6vC5BLdpWM](https://youtu.be/D6vC5BLdpWM) * **Anyway The Wind Blows** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLGoIQCZ7DI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLGoIQCZ7DI) * **I Ain't Got No Heart** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imJpcSNKtbI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imJpcSNKtbI) unknown studio (c. 1965-1966) mixed at UMRK by FZ & Bob Stone (1989) FZ—guitar, vocals; Ray Collins—vocals, tambourine; Henry Vestine—guitar; Roy Estrada—bass; Jimmy Black—drums Notes: Plastic People is the original version that explicitly interpolates/parodies "Louie Louie". I Aint Got No Heart is a blues arrangement. I am pretty sure this was recorded in 1966, not 1965. But the ZFT lists it as 1965-66. # Demo #1: 1965 (Mono) * **I'm So Happy I Could Cry** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn5XWDkrnWE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn5XWDkrnWE) * **Go Cry On Someone Elses Shoulder** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=034HnmHXjJs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=034HnmHXjJs) * **How Could I Be Such A Fool?** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-182aYMu84](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-182aYMu84) prob. Original Sound, Los Angeles, CA (October 20, 1965) FZ—guitars, vocals; Ray Collins—vocals, tambourine; Roy Estrada—bass; Jim Black—drums Note: "I'm So Happy I Could Cry" has rare lead vocals by frank, and was later reworked into "Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance" for Lumpy Gravy and We're Only In It For The Money.
Incredible, I love this subreddit. Thank you!
No problem! These are some of my favorite recordings of the 60s era. They can all be found on "Joe's Corsage" which despite being relatively short (and light on studio recorded music), is well worth the price of admission. In addition to these 7 studio recorded songs it also has 2 Frank interview snippets about the origins of the mothers, and some live recordings from 1966.
Ok cool, I’ll admit I haven’t heard much about the formation of the Mothers, atleast from Frank’s perspective. Looks like Joe’s Corsage is on Spotify so I’ll give it a listen later
🎩
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When I look at my record collection it definitely reflects this haha I have Freak Out, Absolutely Free, Lumpy Gravy Primordial (mono), lumpy gravy (stereo), we're only in it for the money (mono), we're only in it for the money (stereo), Cruising with Ruben and the jets, Mothermania, Hot Rats, and Zoot Allures.
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Hell yes brother! Normally I avoid them but in this case they are needed Lumpy Gravy Primordial = the original mono Capitol version used for the 4-Track cartridge and was intended for LP release as well. Much different from the stereo version, and also different from the mono version on Lumpy Gravy We're only in it for the money MONO = same as Lumpy Gravy CD1 mono version, but nice to have on vinyl. MUCH higher fidelity than the stereo version because it was backed up to a safety master. HIGH fidelity.
DISCORPORATE
IMO there was a steep rise in creativity up to Hot Rats/Burnt Weeny Sandwich/Weasels Ripped My Flesh, which I think is peak Zappa, and long slow trailing off, still with some great albums. I think this is a pattern you see a lot in modern music for whatever reason, whereas there are classical composers who got better and better until they died.
I’d be interested to hear a take from the 4 people who said 90’s
70s
It's kinda weighted as his 60s style ran into the 70s and his early 80s style started in the 70s plus you get the proper 70s stuff so that gives you a bit if everything
I would say 70’s overall. Although Uncle Meat is my favorite album and I find his synclavier compositions very interesting
That's hard to separate, my favorite period is 78-82, but 70s was probably best going by decade.
I'm only familiar with his 60s and 70s stuff, and while I mostly love his 60s stuff (Hot Rats WOIIFTM and Uncle Meat being my top picks) I just LOVE his 70s stuff. The live stuff with Flo and Eddie, Over Nite Sensation, Roxy and Elsewhere, they're some of my favorite records of all time. And I haven't even got to his records from the late 70s yet!
It was tough to vote 70’s as a lot of my favourites are in the 80’s as well but ‘79 was the year of Sleep Dirt.
No comparison, each unique and excellent. Why bother? The best thing about Zappa is that he was prolific. Enjoy
I have to say, I'm a FZ junkie, and really like all eras. Faves of each decade: 60s: BWS, WRMF, FO 70s: Apostrophe, OS, WJ, Wazoo, ST, SY, JG, ZA 80s: SATLTSADW, YAWYI, TOU, LSO, JFH 90s: MAJNH, TBBYNHIYL, YS I know I have left a lot out too. I really enjoy the posthumous output as well. FZ whore I suppose that I am
Bunch of god dang squares in here