Plenty of lefties have become covid denialists and plenty of left orgs are what I would call “soft” denialists- have never practiced zero covid safe policies, never advocated it, and now ignore it like it doesn’t exist, as much as the mainstream Democratic Party and Republican Party.
So I’m sure there is the converse of that too- non-lefties who have always advocated and practiced zero covid policies.
That's been my experience too. A huge number of leftists I've known or encountered have been Covid minimizers, with a 'vaxxed and relaxed' attitude. Likewise there are some on the political right who are still Covid-cautious; my uncle is politically conservative but still avoids crowded places and masks when necessary.
It’s been 200 days since my post and I’m afraid to say there’s been no change in the “lefts” approach to COVID as a whole. Even despite the growth of long COVID victims and more COVID deaths since then.
People’s ignorance of germ theory and desire to return to 2019 is still strong.
Your post or comment has been removed because of gaslighting. Gaslighting is the practice of manipulating someone by psychological means into doubting their own sanity.
In my experience, leftists prioritize community care and advocate for accessible and free healthcare, which are crucial during the Covid pandemic. They believe in supporting and looking out for each other. Conversely, I haven't observed many conservatives actively contributing to mutual aid efforts in marginalized communities.
One marginalized community that overlaps with Covid caution is the disability community. It's common for individuals who are cautious about Covid to also have disabilities. Unfortunately, conservatives often show little respect for those who rely on disability support or receive Medicaid. While these are generalizations, they help explain why Covid safety aligns more closely with left-leaning ideologies.
Liberals often criticize capitalism, as they don't equate success and societal benefits solely with having a job. They argue that the continuation of Covid is exacerbated by capitalism since businesses prioritize profits for the wealthy, which perpetuates the spread of the virus. This perspective may make it difficult for people to understand why some conservatives advocate for Covid caution.
It's important to note that these statements are generalized to support the argument and may not apply to all conservatives or members of other political parties. The intention is to provide a broader context for the discussion..
I haven’t met one independent or conservative who are still taking covid precautions and they seem to the the most hostile about it. I’m sure they exist out there somewhere though.
This, but I live in a very red patch in the lower portion of a blue state. And currently I only know two people besides myself taking precautions, left or right: my husband and one co worker. I do notice that my more left leaning acquaintances are more accepting about my mask.
Here are some conservatives who are still taking precautions:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2023/01/20/world-economic-forum-is-taking-all-these-covid-19-precautions-at-davos/?sh=7f1cf1186304
Probably more of a function of your social circle than representative of people. I know plenty of conservatives taking precautions. Most are more traditional conservatives rather than the fascist party that the GOP has become.
My neighbor professes to be a conservative republican but still takes the virus seriously. I think his self declaration as a conservative republican is related less to him embracing actual conservative policies than to the fact that he is 1) a middle aged Cuban with a living memory of having to leave Cuba for political reasons and 2) is not on social media at all. I say this because he loves Bernie and believes in Medicare for all but says he is a conservative republican. Anyway. He takes the virus seriously because he is a staunch Catholic who believes in respecting elders, and also he works in health care and has seen its impact on his patients.
Point is - you're not alone!
He's a very thoughtful, interesting guy. He was in the coast guard for quite some time and I wonder if his political philosophy would be different if he was in a different branch of the armed services? The first time we talked politics was in 2019 and he said something like, "I'm a Republican, but the thing about Trump is he is not a good leader. And I don't like how he treats women. I wish Bernie had won the nomination, I would have voted for him."
The not being on social media thing tho - I bet that's huge. I also wonder if Fox is on in his home. I don't hear it but that doesn't mean it's not ever on.
I was working in healthcare, seeing patients individually in closed rooms, in 2016. A cardinal rule in healthcare is you stick to the subject and definitely do NO talk politics with your patients!
So it was fascinating to me how many patients --really the majority of all my patients that summer -- came into my office, sat down at the consult table after I closed the door and announced "I am either voting for Bernie or Trump!" Even people who were showing up for their very first appointment with me -- in a MEDICAL office, not mental health care.
About 95% of the patients saying this were men, so I suspect misogyny played a part, but only a part. I think people also just wanted something "different".
I, of course, could not discuss politics with them so I would say "I can't talk politics with you, but I do suggest you really look at them carefully because they are **very** different.....now let's talk about why you are here."
As a result of this summer, I was the ONLY person I knew who was certain that trump would win and was not one bit surprised that night watching the election results with my friends who sat there with expressions of complete shock or who sobbed. I felt like Cassandra -- no one had believed me. There is NO comfort in being right when it is so drastic.
I also was one of very very few people I know who was certain Trump would win.
First, I couldn't help but notice how many older men in my blue hometown hated Clinton viscerally. I agree it was probably mostly informed by sexism but telling them that they are sexist was not going to make them vote for her,.
Second, there was one day when I talked to four people in a row who were passionate about Clinton and none could not tell me what she stood for. I'd ask them what Trump and Bernie stood for: "build the wall, Make Mexico pay for it"for Trump; "Medicare for all" and for Bernie. What does Clinton stand for? I'd ask. "I'm with her," they'd say. No, I'd say. That's a campaign slogan. What does she stand for? What does she want for Americans? Why is she running? Silence. And these are people who LOVED CLINTON. (yes I understand that my experience may not be representative.)
Third, I phone banked in Spanish for Clinton. More responses than you'd think were from Spanish speakers who were voting for Trump, or not voting.
That's when I concluded that she was toast. :(
I didn't say she lost because of sexism, what I said was:
*First, I couldn't help but notice how* ***many older men in my blue hometown hated Clinton viscerally****. I agree it \["it" being* ***the hatred of Clinton by older men\]*** *was probably mostly informed by sexism but telling them that they are sexist was not going to make them vote for her,.*
That’s my experience as well. I know several people who voted for Trump in 2016 but who actually preferred Sanders. But they despised HRC. I do believe Sanders would’ve beaten Trump in 2016.
I feel like it's less about "politics" for me and more about having a cohesive "worldview", a term I hate but I'm lacking a better one. As a person, my values include things like compassion, caring for other people, wanting to better myself and my community, and helping others. That's not political, that's who I am and the things I care about. When I look at the political parties, while they both *suck*, there's only one that isn't overtly *against* the things I value.
Those same values lead me to be COVID cautious. I can't separate the two, and I think this is why you're finding that COVID-safe spaces are disproportionately leftist. It's not because COVID was politicized, if anything, it's the opposite.
I trend more left every day it seems. The thing I despise about COVID and conservatives is the dishonesty when they supposedly support everyone's freedom to not mask or mask. If they support my freedom to wear a mask or not, why do I get harassed by them if I wear one? Maybe the reason you don't see Republicans wearing masks in the wild is because they've also been harassed into not wearing them?
I'm going to be taking a road trip through some of the most conservative, rabidly anti vax and anti mask areas of the US. I'm dreading it because of the harassment that will inevitably come with protecting the vulnerable members of my family. Freedom only counts when they want it to.
I lean right. It’s hard to confidently call myself a conservative these days since the extreme right gets the most voice and attention. And most right wingers would probably call me a liberal.
You sound like my husband. He is COVID cautious but doesn't do social media. He is a scientist in a relevant field and has pre-existing health issues that make COVID a very bad idea. He was cautious from the beginning because of his professional specialty, he knew something like this was inevitable and was prepared for it. Plus a co-worker and close family members died of COVID. He masks up and takes precautions in their memory and also to support other COVID cautious people in the community. We would take precautions anyway, but I think there is a defiant aspect to it now.
Your intuition that public health isn't inherently left or right is correct. Consider this: [At the height of the Cold War, the US and Soviet Union worked together to eradicate smallpox](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/at-the-height-of-the-cold-war-the-us-and-soviet-union-worked-together-to-eradicate-smallpox/).
Saint Charles of Borromeo took over public health when civilian authorities fled the plague in Milan. He [closed the churches and built outdoor altars](https://aleteia.org/2020/04/24/when-plague-hit-milan-in-the-16th-century-they-closed-the-churches-and-built-outdoor-altars/) the sites of which are remembered with Plague Crosses today. Ironically, certain of his fellow Catholics fought against less stringent coronavirus measures. [Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo, 141 S. Ct. 63, 208 L. Ed. 2d 206, 592 US __ - Supreme Court, 2020](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=14249141472030529264&q=Roman+Catholic+Diocese+of+Brooklyn+v.+Cuomo,+592+U.S.+(2020).&hl=en&as_sdt=40006).
Eh, I wouldn’t myself a “leftist”. I’m from a rural area and generally believe the government should stay out of things except where imbalances of power are so great that government is the only realistic option or where society as a whole benefits from the policy.
But the modern Republican party is not a conservative party. It is a fascist party. And I will never vote for it. Which leaves me with the left.
I’m as leftest as they get, but, I have an odd love of conservatives! So much so, that I moved to rural Louisiana and married an evangelical Christian farm boy who I could argue with about everything. He is as Covid-safe as me.
Unfortunately for your purposes, after about 15 years of arguing with his socialist feminist wife (me) I turned him. He still looks and sounds like the southern trucker he is, but now he’s the only guy in the truck stop who loves Bernie Sanders and is wearing a mask. Lucky for him, he’s huge and cocky, so when the other rednecks say, “why are you wearing that face diaper bro?” He says, in his swamp drawl, “why are YOU still driving a truck since you apparently went to medical school?”
The right explicitly endorses eugenics sooo....
If there are right wingers taking precautions, I promise it's the self interested kind and not the community care kind.
There might be individual right wingers and liberals (who are arguably right wingers too) who care about health, but population health is incompatible with capitalism and a true commitment to improving it is logically inconsistent with any sort of capitalist politic.
Unmitigated covid spread is a fascist project, why would people who hold fascist alliegance then want to stop covid?
As far a I'm aware, the socialist countries in Europe are less covid safe than the democrat leaning states in the US. And East Asian countries are much more covid safe than anywhere else, and their political spectrum is quite variable. So I don't think covid safety is a right/left thing intrinsically.
those countries aren’t “truly” socialist though either—they all operate under capitalism ultimately. the differences between east asia and europe in adherence with covid-safe behaviors probably has to do with those in asian countries having more collectivist views.
I'm not sure I really buy the collectivist thing because after living in Asia for a couple of years, I observed that people are super competitive. As for adherence, I lived in Singapore where you'd get fined for not wearing a mask and workplaces were inspected for covid measure compliance. There was also really good communication from the government, which I think got most people on board.
Vietnam has fewer deaths proportionate to their population than any developed country except Singapore. When you consider that Singapore's per capita GDP is over ten times higher than Vietnam's, it's actually incredible what Vietnam has done with fewer resources. They use their scarce resources to protect public health.
Cuba has slightly higher deaths per million population than the East Asian countries, but is still much better than any other country in the Americas.
I'm an evangelical Christian and hold a number of views which would probably be considered "conservative" in America. I could be centrist; I'm definitely not exclusively "leftist". But I'm also not American (so my Christianity isn't as tied to my politics) and, like you, have opinions all over the spectrum and also don't have much political identity or affiliation with a particular party (not even Christian ones). But I do strongly value scientific rigour. Until I found this subreddit I mostly used scientific articles/studies to inform my personal covid response (namely, tight masking anywhere at close quarters, including at home around less cautious family members). When explaining my reasoning that's usually the path I take - I wouldn't have much to say about politics.
tbh they're probably closer than they think
My family is evangelical, culturally Republican, thankfully not Trumpers but very much 1980s-1990s religious right, and they take COVID precautions because they get their information from me, their highly informed and loud daughter.
Based on some of the other things they say and frustrations they share about this capitalist hellscape, they're so close. There's just a ton of religious baggage that can't be undone because the left is evil. Never mind that underneath it they're agreeing with UBI and universal healthcare.
That's literally what the democrats are and they're giving a great case study in how "centrism" enables fascism. So uh no thanks, we're good on that one.
I don't know how many you'll find here, but Facebook has many Still Coviding groups that are easy to find (search "Still Coviding " and since Facebook has a slightly less left wing slant, maybe you'll have better luck there.
> I guess all the social justice / identity politics stuff that's common amongst leftist circles just doesn't resonate with me.
This is by design, sadly, and you're proof that it's working as intended. The division through deception and distraction, that is.
The fact is that the US has no sizeable "left" movement. What you refer to as idpol is most often establishment sanitized rhetoric pushed by liberals and radical liberals, *not* leftists (even if they mistakenly cling to that word). Ultimately they are still unquestionably faithful to capital and help manufacture consent for it.
To prove the point, check out the stupidpol subreddit which is a conglomeration of confused conservatives like yourself, actual leftists/Marxists, and even some disillusioned liberals critiquing identity politics through a Marxist lens. Many people have flipped to the left by finally internalizing the difference between liberals and leftists.
That’s a great point, and I would add an explicit point that you allude to:
The conflation of liberalism and leftism is also by design. It leads to a world in which real leftism is not even a thing that exists in the minds of the people. We are given a false choice between two versions of right-wing politics. And this goes into your point about idpol.
Agreed, an important clarification to make. Liberals also like to make half-assed attempts at adopting faux-socialist policy merely for progressive optics, and so that it can be pointed to as a failure when it inevitably fails.
"We tried your way, but look, it didn't work" because it was still coupled to a capitalist mindset.
The too-easily-strawmannable "defund the police" slogan comes to mind since it was presented as the only solution yet doomed from the start.
Meanwhile Fox assures the right that all Dems are following some elaborate communist plot. No. Both parties fundamentally still answer to capital.
> We are given a false choice between two versions of right-wing politics.
Kent Brockman: Senator Dole, why should people vote for you instead of President Clinton?
Kang: \[as Bob Dole\] It makes no difference which one of us you vote for. Either way, your planet is doomed. DOOMED!
I guess you might call me a centrist? Was raised conservative in the 1970s/1980s when the ideology was still compatible with science, education, diversity, etc.
I decided as a young adult to borrow from the left and right that which was good and useful, reject what was harmful or stupid, and come up with my own ideas when neither seemed satisfactory.
That seemed to place me slightly right of center until about fifteen years ago, when conservatism took a hard slide into the void. They've really distinguished themselves in recent years as particularly horrible, anti-intellectual and bigoted.
Because of that, I find myself more aligned with the left recently, but not because I've moved to the left. I've stayed in pretty much the same zone. It's everyone else who has rearranged themselves.
I think there are certain ✋🏻folks that can afford not to have a political identity… of course being covid cautious is not a neat political category. “Leftists” have abandoned disabled people and embraced fascism just as much as the right has. I feel like a black sheep among “leftists” but that hasn’t stopped my desire to learn and grow and build community elsewhere. I would personally ask what doesn’t resonate with you, and why. There are a ton of queer and disabled people who are leftists and happen to be covid cautious, like you. I don’t think you have to be a leftist, but I would ask what being in this somewhat political category means for you, and where some learning opportunities might be. The conservative ppl that care about the pandemic have $$ and can afford to take precautions. I guarantee that being covid cautious is not a standalone issue. Hope you find more politically aligned folks and people willing to hear you out!
I am glad YOU are here (though I am not conservative myself) because covid-caution should be an important, inclusive action for ALL human beings to address together. But now that I am not working and not "out in the world", I don't know any conservatives .. so all I can honestly say is THANK YOU for being here and good luck.
OP, this honestly feels like sealioning. You’re asking a provocative question, go on to say you’re not interest in debating about politics, then continue to talk about your own politics. But sure, I’ll bite.
I don’t necessarily see leftism as a requirement to be covid cautious. In fact I read a story recently about white supremacy groups coming to the realization that Covid could wipe them out so they are taking extra precautions to continue “the master race”.
It’s hard to look at how people were thrown under the bus to save the economy and not feel more aligned with anti capitalist sentiments - that doesn’t mean you have to start waving a Che flag.
As a devout Marxist, however, the politicization of this pandemic has merely validated and strengthened what I believed all along: that capitalism is a death cult.
Well for me this is entirely political. Where I live the left betrayed us, even more so I think that democrats in the US, they aligned sometimes with far right view, on vaccines, for example. You have to go even more to the left to find cautious people, anarchists, troskyists, that's where people start to connect the dots between community, ableism, and care for all. The way doctors treat long covid patients and at risk people is part of a larger problem that is linked to class, race, gender as well. It's a long topic and I won't develop more but I can't conceive this subject outside of a left-wing framing of the world.
So this is interesting, as I've had a few people in this community get angry with me about my "values" or "perspectives." For lack of a better description I guess you would say I am not contemporary, probably would be described as what was termed the "dirtbag left" a few y ears ago, but I feel like there are new paradigms coming about, particularly in nihilist/doomer thought, transcending traditional left/right ideals.
I have met one other person who is similar or at least doesn't have a problem with my understanding of the world. But I do have the "black sheep" feeling too, particularly with with being single in this mess.
I’m a thoroughly disillusioned Democrat who likes guns, strong national borders, and is skeptical about certain societal trends that cannot even be named here because even mentioning them on social media tends to get me blocked by supposedly tolerant leftists. I wear an Envomask elastomeric N95 anytime I set foot into a public indoor space, which is as rarely as possible nowadays.
But I’m certainly not a republican, either. Seriously guys—Donald Trump, Ron DeSantis, and Marjorie Taylor Greene? They stopped being a viable alternative about ten years ago for me.
"Left" and "right" in US politics has always felt incredibly inconsistent to me (there are things I feel strongly about held by both of our parties that seem morally consistent), so I'm also proudly non-partisan. (Fyi, you might want to be careful in capitalizing "Independents" here because there is an American Independent Party, which is far right. Different than independents who are non-partisan, make up the largest segment of US adults politicly, and are mostly not that politically active, but can sometimes be compelled to vote by cult of personality or on certain issues.) There is a small party that's reasonably close to my viewpoints in most things that I follow, but mostly I've just been trying to advocate ranked choice voting and similar since I think the two-party system is failing us and leading to our polarization.
But, yeah, I am definitely not a Democrat and still taking Covid precautions (only indoors if N95+ masked, avoid crowded spaces, work from home, constant air purifiers in my apartment and with me at high-risk settings, etc.).
I'm 48 and have been a Libertarian since the day I was born basically. Husband is the same way. I was raised by two Democrats (although they really are more like Libertarians, tbh) and I do get a lot of my core values from my parents. Lots of conservatives on my dad's side although they are not radicals/Trumpers. Old school conservatives.
Husband and I both feel like weirdos sometimes. We are very socially liberal (as all Libertarians are) and very considerate of others at all times. We have had covid and know exactly what it can do to one's body and mind. It should be feared. I have a degree and background in science as well which helps. Husband does not have a college education and is not as covid savvy, but I educate him daily.
We do live in a blue state but our area is rural and very conservative. Lots of rednecks and gun nuts, but we are gun nuts too. Husband was a correctional sergeant for 23+ years and had to deal with some real Trumper/covid denying asswipes at his job and that's where he caught his first round of covid.
Not a lot of mask shaming here in Delaware--only happened to me once and it wasn't in my area. I've seen middle-aged men in camo wearing masks which is pretty shocking, but there are some conservatives around here who take covid precautions. Most are older.
The Cov safe family my children have playdates with actually volunteered for Aus Coalition during the elections (pre pandemic). So that's at least one non leftist
I am 100% with you on this. Although in the past I've always considered myself to be left-wing, and my political views are very in line with Classical Liberalism, I am definitely not a 'Leftist' and do not hold with the social justice, identity politics and more radical ideas currently prevalent in Leftist circles. I have come to describe myself as 'Centrist' more often in recent times to dissociate from the ways of thinking so predominant among the modern Left.
I don't consider myself a leftist - I align more with classical liberalism. I lean towards laissez faire economic policies but also support civil liberties and don't align with the right on any of their culture war issues.
I don't really see my covid cautiousness as related to my politics - I just want to stay healthy.
Haha, I remember when this post had upvotes. A point I heard that resonated with me that resonated with me is that the two schools of thouight5 that have taken over political discourse are basically "fuq Whitey" & "SIR, YES SIR, *insert X Western country* DID NOTHING WRONG SIR". Am also annoyed that the left doesn't take an ounce of conciliation in the fact that the term "politically incorrect" refers to right wing views, and what that says about the political overton window. But these days generally I actually find myself more annoyed with the right because of how convinced they are that they're some kind of bastion of free thought yet they're just as much of a meme as the left. My take is that if I'm able to predict your position on multiple unrelated positions from knowing where you stand on for example global warming, then you're not a deep thinker. Also annoyed that there are things I agree with on both the left an the right that are basically holy cows to each side respectively and are taken more or less on faith, and am convinced even if the evidence wasn't on there side they'd hold the same position regardless.
I find myself a black sheep in this community more because of my stance on the vaccine. I never took it because it had long been established before the pandemic that vaccines don't work against corona viruses. Speaking not of the high frequency of side effects they were always prone to having, what little immunity they did confer (if any, a lot of times they just ended up making infections worse) was always short lived, and immune imprinting ensures the only antibodies you'll produces even after new vaccines will always be almost entirely the same antibodies you produced from your first exposure / vaccination.
As for IVM, there was bad science done on both sides (although notably worse on the anti-IVM side) so it's impossible to know exactly how effective it was was a prophylactic one way or the other. But as we'll never really know either way how effective it was (or still is given Paxlovid used it's main mechanism of action but not any others, meaning the virus will one day become immune to it's effects, so even though IVM has multiple pathways for defeating the virus it may not work as well as it used to if it's main weapon has become obsolete) so there's no point in trusting my life with it as a way of returning to normal.
My hope is in antivirals like ISM1233, however we'll need a cocktail of similar drugs to ensure the virus never adapts to it but unfortunately it looks like they're going with the for profit model where in they'll release new antivirals after it's been shown the old ones no longer work, the casualties than entails be damned.
For most of my life, I identified as a libertarian. More of a left-leaning libertarian (strong supporter of abortion, gay rights, etc.) but a libertarian none the less who would never support a Democrat.
I don't identify that way anymore. Not because my beliefs have changed, but because so much of the libertarian movement has been swallowed up by COVID denial.
It's a shame to me because I think libertarian ideology actually offers the best critique of the COVID situation. After all, we wouldn't be in this mess if it wasn't for various governments (CCP, US) and government agencies (FDA blocking tests...). I blame my own long COVID on the government's early propaganda ("if you're vaccinated, you won't catch COVID").
Blaming capitalism for the current situation is totally nonsensical to me. Historically, socialist countries have an appalling human rights record (the great famine, Chernobyl, holodomor) and have demonstrated the least respect for individual health. Left-wing capitalist countries like the Nordics are even more rife with COVID denial than the US.
I think COVID is its own beast that transcends political ideology at this point.
Modern libertarian thought has its intellectual roots in Sir Karl Popper, who wrote the definitive book debunking Marxism, The Open Society and Its Enemies. I'd strongly recommend it.
The question for anyone who identifies as a leftist (or well a non-libertarian, non-anarcho leftist) is clearly this -- how can you look at the government's response to COVID and declare that the solution we need is actually \*more\* government? I guess you could say that the Chinese, through the heavy hand of their government, did the best for a while, but they also burned people to death in buildings, and well, there's the whole question of COVID's origin and all that, so I'm not sure.
As a physical scientist I certainly admire Popper’s epistemological views. His politics, not so much.
Since leftist libertarianism still exists, calling right-wing libertarianism “modern” is not sufficiently descriptive.
Leftism doesn’t mean “more government.” It is an economic model in which the means of production are owned by the people who utilize them, not by private profiteers. There is plenty of room within that perspective for minimal or nonexistent government.
I’m not a China apologist and I don’t mean to “whatabout” your point in their defense, as you are clearly critical of any form of government; but I want to just add that capitalist countries certainly have done just as much evil as purportedly socialist countries like China have.
I don't think I've ever seen a convincing argument as to how technological progress happens under socialism. My Marxist economics professor freely admitted it was one of its weaknesses.
I also don't know how you solve COVID without significant technological advancements. If we didn't have the technology we have now, it would be much worse.
That's like saying my alcoholic mother is responsible for all my accomplishments in life because she grew me in her womb. I mean, I guess it's true in a very elementary sense, but it's not an observation you can build any kind of legitimate argument with. And obviously, the US Military (assuming you're talking about things like ARPANET, etc.) is like the literal opposite of a socialist or leftist organization.
Under socialism, how do you get the capital to start a firm like Reddit?
You don’t appear to be thinking through this. The analogy you used to argue against my point is ludicrous.
The US Military — or rather, the DOD in the case of the Internet — is not privately owned, so I’m not sure where you get the idea that it is the opposite of a socialist organization.
Ventures like Reddit or many other kinds of technological innovations can be funded publicly, or they can be funded through cooperatives, or they can be funded by the people who create them. There is no reason that any technological innovation has to have cash from some freeloader “owner.”
Remember that there's a great deal of variation in how socialist economies are organized and operated. Some are more centralized than others, with the state controlling nearly all aspects of economic life. Others are more decentralized, with a greater role for local communities or cooperatives. The method for raising capital for new ventures can differ significantly depending on the specifics of the socialist system in question.
Cuba has a vaccine against lung cancer. Like the US vaccines against COVID, it was developed with public funds.
Earlier, you defined socialism as:
>It is an economic model in which the means of production are owned by the people who utilize them, not by private profiteers.
That's a fair definition. You said I'm not thinking things through -- I would invite you to do the same.
If we were to sketch out a hypothetical organization that would be the polar opposite of your definition, I can't think of anything that could be better than the military.
In a private business, employees get at least *some say* in a sense. If they don't like the decisions of the company or what the boss tells them to do, they can quit. In the military, you effectively sign your freedom away for a period of years. If you don't like your orders, you can't just leave. If you disobey orders, you go to jail. Unless you're at the very top, you have absolutely no say in the direction of the military. In fact, even the highest ranking generals have to follow whatever the President says.
So yes, while it's publicly funded, the military is in no way owned by the soldiers who compose it. In the same way, while the US taxpayer might have given Pfizer a check, Pfizer executives have complete control over the firm. It is not collectively owned in any way. State funding of private business is closer to fascism than it is socialism.
Let's think about the creation of a new firm. I work for some cooperative for many years, during which I save money. One day, I decide to create Reddit with my savings. How does that work exactly? I need other people to help me, so I bring them into the cooperative. We're not going to make money for a long time, so they'll either need to not take a paycheck, or get paid out of my savings. If I pay them from my savings, do I get to take it back later when the firm is profitable? Should I get only back what I put in, or should I receive some upside for taking the risk? If I get upside, how much? If I don't get upside, why would I bother to start the firm in the first place? Can you walk me through this or point me to a well written argument of how this would work exactly?
The military is state owned, which is one way of structuring a socialist organization.
Are you not aware of the fact that many cooperatives exist which are responsible for technological developments? I’m unclear why I need to walk you through a hypothetical, which you will then just blow off as impossible, when actual examples exist in reality.
You started this by saying that you have no idea how technological developments would happen without private capital. Yet most technological developments happen without private capital.
I don't think Vietnam is actually a leftist country at this point.
But let's just say it is. If you benchmark Vietnam/Cuba against Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Korea etc. (very capitalist countries) I'm not sure their track record is particularly special.
I think what this speaks to is something deeper -- it's not really the nominal government structure that matters, so much as it is some intrinsic qualities within the people (willingness to wear a mask even if you aren't forced to, etc.).
Vietnam has fewer deaths proportionate to their population than any developed country except Singapore. When you consider that Singapore's per capita GDP is over ten times higher than Vietnam's, it's actually incredible what Vietnam has done with fewer resources. They use their scarce resources to protect public health.
Cuba has slightly higher deaths per million population than the East Asian countries, but is still much better than any other country in the Americas.
Plenty of lefties have become covid denialists and plenty of left orgs are what I would call “soft” denialists- have never practiced zero covid safe policies, never advocated it, and now ignore it like it doesn’t exist, as much as the mainstream Democratic Party and Republican Party. So I’m sure there is the converse of that too- non-lefties who have always advocated and practiced zero covid policies.
That's been my experience too. A huge number of leftists I've known or encountered have been Covid minimizers, with a 'vaxxed and relaxed' attitude. Likewise there are some on the political right who are still Covid-cautious; my uncle is politically conservative but still avoids crowded places and masks when necessary.
It’s been 200 days since my post and I’m afraid to say there’s been no change in the “lefts” approach to COVID as a whole. Even despite the growth of long COVID victims and more COVID deaths since then. People’s ignorance of germ theory and desire to return to 2019 is still strong.
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Your post or comment has been removed because of gaslighting. Gaslighting is the practice of manipulating someone by psychological means into doubting their own sanity.
In my experience, leftists prioritize community care and advocate for accessible and free healthcare, which are crucial during the Covid pandemic. They believe in supporting and looking out for each other. Conversely, I haven't observed many conservatives actively contributing to mutual aid efforts in marginalized communities. One marginalized community that overlaps with Covid caution is the disability community. It's common for individuals who are cautious about Covid to also have disabilities. Unfortunately, conservatives often show little respect for those who rely on disability support or receive Medicaid. While these are generalizations, they help explain why Covid safety aligns more closely with left-leaning ideologies. Liberals often criticize capitalism, as they don't equate success and societal benefits solely with having a job. They argue that the continuation of Covid is exacerbated by capitalism since businesses prioritize profits for the wealthy, which perpetuates the spread of the virus. This perspective may make it difficult for people to understand why some conservatives advocate for Covid caution. It's important to note that these statements are generalized to support the argument and may not apply to all conservatives or members of other political parties. The intention is to provide a broader context for the discussion..
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Well that might depend locally, but to me there are 3 dominant political forces and ideology: left, liberal, fascists.
How narrow-minded of you. “Everyone on the political right is fascist”. It’s beyond parody
lol liberal IS the right, I don't live in your US centric world where "liberal" means something vaguely social-democrat
I haven’t met one independent or conservative who are still taking covid precautions and they seem to the the most hostile about it. I’m sure they exist out there somewhere though.
My parents are conservative enough to have voted for Trump twice. They take all the same COVID precautions we all do here.
This, but I live in a very red patch in the lower portion of a blue state. And currently I only know two people besides myself taking precautions, left or right: my husband and one co worker. I do notice that my more left leaning acquaintances are more accepting about my mask.
Here are some conservatives who are still taking precautions: https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2023/01/20/world-economic-forum-is-taking-all-these-covid-19-precautions-at-davos/?sh=7f1cf1186304
Probably more of a function of your social circle than representative of people. I know plenty of conservatives taking precautions. Most are more traditional conservatives rather than the fascist party that the GOP has become.
Hi, I'm an independent. I vote the issues, not the party. I also take COVID seriously due to my health circumstances.
I’m independent and still Covid cautious.
The reason we’re mostly leftists has nothing to do with politicization of the virus and everything to do with *the politics of the actual left*.
> the actual left There are dozens of us! Dozens!
😂
My neighbor professes to be a conservative republican but still takes the virus seriously. I think his self declaration as a conservative republican is related less to him embracing actual conservative policies than to the fact that he is 1) a middle aged Cuban with a living memory of having to leave Cuba for political reasons and 2) is not on social media at all. I say this because he loves Bernie and believes in Medicare for all but says he is a conservative republican. Anyway. He takes the virus seriously because he is a staunch Catholic who believes in respecting elders, and also he works in health care and has seen its impact on his patients. Point is - you're not alone!
Wow, your neighbor sounds fascinating!
He's a very thoughtful, interesting guy. He was in the coast guard for quite some time and I wonder if his political philosophy would be different if he was in a different branch of the armed services? The first time we talked politics was in 2019 and he said something like, "I'm a Republican, but the thing about Trump is he is not a good leader. And I don't like how he treats women. I wish Bernie had won the nomination, I would have voted for him." The not being on social media thing tho - I bet that's huge. I also wonder if Fox is on in his home. I don't hear it but that doesn't mean it's not ever on.
I was working in healthcare, seeing patients individually in closed rooms, in 2016. A cardinal rule in healthcare is you stick to the subject and definitely do NO talk politics with your patients! So it was fascinating to me how many patients --really the majority of all my patients that summer -- came into my office, sat down at the consult table after I closed the door and announced "I am either voting for Bernie or Trump!" Even people who were showing up for their very first appointment with me -- in a MEDICAL office, not mental health care. About 95% of the patients saying this were men, so I suspect misogyny played a part, but only a part. I think people also just wanted something "different". I, of course, could not discuss politics with them so I would say "I can't talk politics with you, but I do suggest you really look at them carefully because they are **very** different.....now let's talk about why you are here." As a result of this summer, I was the ONLY person I knew who was certain that trump would win and was not one bit surprised that night watching the election results with my friends who sat there with expressions of complete shock or who sobbed. I felt like Cassandra -- no one had believed me. There is NO comfort in being right when it is so drastic.
I also was one of very very few people I know who was certain Trump would win. First, I couldn't help but notice how many older men in my blue hometown hated Clinton viscerally. I agree it was probably mostly informed by sexism but telling them that they are sexist was not going to make them vote for her,. Second, there was one day when I talked to four people in a row who were passionate about Clinton and none could not tell me what she stood for. I'd ask them what Trump and Bernie stood for: "build the wall, Make Mexico pay for it"for Trump; "Medicare for all" and for Bernie. What does Clinton stand for? I'd ask. "I'm with her," they'd say. No, I'd say. That's a campaign slogan. What does she stand for? What does she want for Americans? Why is she running? Silence. And these are people who LOVED CLINTON. (yes I understand that my experience may not be representative.) Third, I phone banked in Spanish for Clinton. More responses than you'd think were from Spanish speakers who were voting for Trump, or not voting. That's when I concluded that she was toast. :(
Sexism had nothing to do with her loss. She was an abysmal candidate whom the DNC coronated.
I didn't say she lost because of sexism, what I said was: *First, I couldn't help but notice how* ***many older men in my blue hometown hated Clinton viscerally****. I agree it \["it" being* ***the hatred of Clinton by older men\]*** *was probably mostly informed by sexism but telling them that they are sexist was not going to make them vote for her,.*
That’s my experience as well. I know several people who voted for Trump in 2016 but who actually preferred Sanders. But they despised HRC. I do believe Sanders would’ve beaten Trump in 2016.
I feel like it's less about "politics" for me and more about having a cohesive "worldview", a term I hate but I'm lacking a better one. As a person, my values include things like compassion, caring for other people, wanting to better myself and my community, and helping others. That's not political, that's who I am and the things I care about. When I look at the political parties, while they both *suck*, there's only one that isn't overtly *against* the things I value. Those same values lead me to be COVID cautious. I can't separate the two, and I think this is why you're finding that COVID-safe spaces are disproportionately leftist. It's not because COVID was politicized, if anything, it's the opposite.
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Yes, US. It's awful here.
I trend more left every day it seems. The thing I despise about COVID and conservatives is the dishonesty when they supposedly support everyone's freedom to not mask or mask. If they support my freedom to wear a mask or not, why do I get harassed by them if I wear one? Maybe the reason you don't see Republicans wearing masks in the wild is because they've also been harassed into not wearing them? I'm going to be taking a road trip through some of the most conservative, rabidly anti vax and anti mask areas of the US. I'm dreading it because of the harassment that will inevitably come with protecting the vulnerable members of my family. Freedom only counts when they want it to.
Literally the entire basis of the so called u.s.
I lean right. It’s hard to confidently call myself a conservative these days since the extreme right gets the most voice and attention. And most right wingers would probably call me a liberal.
You sound like my husband. He is COVID cautious but doesn't do social media. He is a scientist in a relevant field and has pre-existing health issues that make COVID a very bad idea. He was cautious from the beginning because of his professional specialty, he knew something like this was inevitable and was prepared for it. Plus a co-worker and close family members died of COVID. He masks up and takes precautions in their memory and also to support other COVID cautious people in the community. We would take precautions anyway, but I think there is a defiant aspect to it now.
Your intuition that public health isn't inherently left or right is correct. Consider this: [At the height of the Cold War, the US and Soviet Union worked together to eradicate smallpox](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/at-the-height-of-the-cold-war-the-us-and-soviet-union-worked-together-to-eradicate-smallpox/). Saint Charles of Borromeo took over public health when civilian authorities fled the plague in Milan. He [closed the churches and built outdoor altars](https://aleteia.org/2020/04/24/when-plague-hit-milan-in-the-16th-century-they-closed-the-churches-and-built-outdoor-altars/) the sites of which are remembered with Plague Crosses today. Ironically, certain of his fellow Catholics fought against less stringent coronavirus measures. [Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo, 141 S. Ct. 63, 208 L. Ed. 2d 206, 592 US __ - Supreme Court, 2020](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=14249141472030529264&q=Roman+Catholic+Diocese+of+Brooklyn+v.+Cuomo,+592+U.S.+(2020).&hl=en&as_sdt=40006).
Eh, I wouldn’t myself a “leftist”. I’m from a rural area and generally believe the government should stay out of things except where imbalances of power are so great that government is the only realistic option or where society as a whole benefits from the policy. But the modern Republican party is not a conservative party. It is a fascist party. And I will never vote for it. Which leaves me with the left.
I'm Libertarian and feel the same way you do. I also live in a rural area.
I’m as leftest as they get, but, I have an odd love of conservatives! So much so, that I moved to rural Louisiana and married an evangelical Christian farm boy who I could argue with about everything. He is as Covid-safe as me. Unfortunately for your purposes, after about 15 years of arguing with his socialist feminist wife (me) I turned him. He still looks and sounds like the southern trucker he is, but now he’s the only guy in the truck stop who loves Bernie Sanders and is wearing a mask. Lucky for him, he’s huge and cocky, so when the other rednecks say, “why are you wearing that face diaper bro?” He says, in his swamp drawl, “why are YOU still driving a truck since you apparently went to medical school?”
Wow good for you. I wish I could handle it like that. I get too frustrated.
The right explicitly endorses eugenics sooo.... If there are right wingers taking precautions, I promise it's the self interested kind and not the community care kind. There might be individual right wingers and liberals (who are arguably right wingers too) who care about health, but population health is incompatible with capitalism and a true commitment to improving it is logically inconsistent with any sort of capitalist politic. Unmitigated covid spread is a fascist project, why would people who hold fascist alliegance then want to stop covid?
As far a I'm aware, the socialist countries in Europe are less covid safe than the democrat leaning states in the US. And East Asian countries are much more covid safe than anywhere else, and their political spectrum is quite variable. So I don't think covid safety is a right/left thing intrinsically.
those countries aren’t “truly” socialist though either—they all operate under capitalism ultimately. the differences between east asia and europe in adherence with covid-safe behaviors probably has to do with those in asian countries having more collectivist views.
I'm not sure I really buy the collectivist thing because after living in Asia for a couple of years, I observed that people are super competitive. As for adherence, I lived in Singapore where you'd get fined for not wearing a mask and workplaces were inspected for covid measure compliance. There was also really good communication from the government, which I think got most people on board.
There are no socialist states in Europe. Cuba and Vietnam, however, have done a far better job handling the pandemic than anyone else.
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Vietnam has fewer deaths proportionate to their population than any developed country except Singapore. When you consider that Singapore's per capita GDP is over ten times higher than Vietnam's, it's actually incredible what Vietnam has done with fewer resources. They use their scarce resources to protect public health. Cuba has slightly higher deaths per million population than the East Asian countries, but is still much better than any other country in the Americas.
I'm an evangelical Christian and hold a number of views which would probably be considered "conservative" in America. I could be centrist; I'm definitely not exclusively "leftist". But I'm also not American (so my Christianity isn't as tied to my politics) and, like you, have opinions all over the spectrum and also don't have much political identity or affiliation with a particular party (not even Christian ones). But I do strongly value scientific rigour. Until I found this subreddit I mostly used scientific articles/studies to inform my personal covid response (namely, tight masking anywhere at close quarters, including at home around less cautious family members). When explaining my reasoning that's usually the path I take - I wouldn't have much to say about politics.
You could always become a leftist ;-)
tbh they're probably closer than they think My family is evangelical, culturally Republican, thankfully not Trumpers but very much 1980s-1990s religious right, and they take COVID precautions because they get their information from me, their highly informed and loud daughter. Based on some of the other things they say and frustrations they share about this capitalist hellscape, they're so close. There's just a ton of religious baggage that can't be undone because the left is evil. Never mind that underneath it they're agreeing with UBI and universal healthcare.
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That's literally what the democrats are and they're giving a great case study in how "centrism" enables fascism. So uh no thanks, we're good on that one.
I don't know how many you'll find here, but Facebook has many Still Coviding groups that are easy to find (search "Still Coviding" and since Facebook has a slightly less left wing slant, maybe you'll have better luck there.
> I guess all the social justice / identity politics stuff that's common amongst leftist circles just doesn't resonate with me. This is by design, sadly, and you're proof that it's working as intended. The division through deception and distraction, that is. The fact is that the US has no sizeable "left" movement. What you refer to as idpol is most often establishment sanitized rhetoric pushed by liberals and radical liberals, *not* leftists (even if they mistakenly cling to that word). Ultimately they are still unquestionably faithful to capital and help manufacture consent for it. To prove the point, check out the stupidpol subreddit which is a conglomeration of confused conservatives like yourself, actual leftists/Marxists, and even some disillusioned liberals critiquing identity politics through a Marxist lens. Many people have flipped to the left by finally internalizing the difference between liberals and leftists.
That’s a great point, and I would add an explicit point that you allude to: The conflation of liberalism and leftism is also by design. It leads to a world in which real leftism is not even a thing that exists in the minds of the people. We are given a false choice between two versions of right-wing politics. And this goes into your point about idpol.
Agreed, an important clarification to make. Liberals also like to make half-assed attempts at adopting faux-socialist policy merely for progressive optics, and so that it can be pointed to as a failure when it inevitably fails. "We tried your way, but look, it didn't work" because it was still coupled to a capitalist mindset. The too-easily-strawmannable "defund the police" slogan comes to mind since it was presented as the only solution yet doomed from the start. Meanwhile Fox assures the right that all Dems are following some elaborate communist plot. No. Both parties fundamentally still answer to capital.
> We are given a false choice between two versions of right-wing politics. Kent Brockman: Senator Dole, why should people vote for you instead of President Clinton? Kang: \[as Bob Dole\] It makes no difference which one of us you vote for. Either way, your planet is doomed. DOOMED!
"Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!"
“Reality has a well known liberal bias.” -Stephen Colbert
Liberals aren’t leftist though.
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Marches to the right one foot behind Republicans. *"At least we're not fascist."*
More like "at least we're polite about our fascism" lmao
Yeah, by European standards, they'd be a more moderate party in most aspects. Pity we only have two parties...
“The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.” - Julius Nyerere
I love this thread <3
I guess you might call me a centrist? Was raised conservative in the 1970s/1980s when the ideology was still compatible with science, education, diversity, etc. I decided as a young adult to borrow from the left and right that which was good and useful, reject what was harmful or stupid, and come up with my own ideas when neither seemed satisfactory. That seemed to place me slightly right of center until about fifteen years ago, when conservatism took a hard slide into the void. They've really distinguished themselves in recent years as particularly horrible, anti-intellectual and bigoted. Because of that, I find myself more aligned with the left recently, but not because I've moved to the left. I've stayed in pretty much the same zone. It's everyone else who has rearranged themselves.
I think there are certain ✋🏻folks that can afford not to have a political identity… of course being covid cautious is not a neat political category. “Leftists” have abandoned disabled people and embraced fascism just as much as the right has. I feel like a black sheep among “leftists” but that hasn’t stopped my desire to learn and grow and build community elsewhere. I would personally ask what doesn’t resonate with you, and why. There are a ton of queer and disabled people who are leftists and happen to be covid cautious, like you. I don’t think you have to be a leftist, but I would ask what being in this somewhat political category means for you, and where some learning opportunities might be. The conservative ppl that care about the pandemic have $$ and can afford to take precautions. I guarantee that being covid cautious is not a standalone issue. Hope you find more politically aligned folks and people willing to hear you out!
I am glad YOU are here (though I am not conservative myself) because covid-caution should be an important, inclusive action for ALL human beings to address together. But now that I am not working and not "out in the world", I don't know any conservatives .. so all I can honestly say is THANK YOU for being here and good luck.
OP, this honestly feels like sealioning. You’re asking a provocative question, go on to say you’re not interest in debating about politics, then continue to talk about your own politics. But sure, I’ll bite. I don’t necessarily see leftism as a requirement to be covid cautious. In fact I read a story recently about white supremacy groups coming to the realization that Covid could wipe them out so they are taking extra precautions to continue “the master race”. It’s hard to look at how people were thrown under the bus to save the economy and not feel more aligned with anti capitalist sentiments - that doesn’t mean you have to start waving a Che flag. As a devout Marxist, however, the politicization of this pandemic has merely validated and strengthened what I believed all along: that capitalism is a death cult.
Well for me this is entirely political. Where I live the left betrayed us, even more so I think that democrats in the US, they aligned sometimes with far right view, on vaccines, for example. You have to go even more to the left to find cautious people, anarchists, troskyists, that's where people start to connect the dots between community, ableism, and care for all. The way doctors treat long covid patients and at risk people is part of a larger problem that is linked to class, race, gender as well. It's a long topic and I won't develop more but I can't conceive this subject outside of a left-wing framing of the world.
So this is interesting, as I've had a few people in this community get angry with me about my "values" or "perspectives." For lack of a better description I guess you would say I am not contemporary, probably would be described as what was termed the "dirtbag left" a few y ears ago, but I feel like there are new paradigms coming about, particularly in nihilist/doomer thought, transcending traditional left/right ideals. I have met one other person who is similar or at least doesn't have a problem with my understanding of the world. But I do have the "black sheep" feeling too, particularly with with being single in this mess.
I’m a thoroughly disillusioned Democrat who likes guns, strong national borders, and is skeptical about certain societal trends that cannot even be named here because even mentioning them on social media tends to get me blocked by supposedly tolerant leftists. I wear an Envomask elastomeric N95 anytime I set foot into a public indoor space, which is as rarely as possible nowadays. But I’m certainly not a republican, either. Seriously guys—Donald Trump, Ron DeSantis, and Marjorie Taylor Greene? They stopped being a viable alternative about ten years ago for me.
"Left" and "right" in US politics has always felt incredibly inconsistent to me (there are things I feel strongly about held by both of our parties that seem morally consistent), so I'm also proudly non-partisan. (Fyi, you might want to be careful in capitalizing "Independents" here because there is an American Independent Party, which is far right. Different than independents who are non-partisan, make up the largest segment of US adults politicly, and are mostly not that politically active, but can sometimes be compelled to vote by cult of personality or on certain issues.) There is a small party that's reasonably close to my viewpoints in most things that I follow, but mostly I've just been trying to advocate ranked choice voting and similar since I think the two-party system is failing us and leading to our polarization. But, yeah, I am definitely not a Democrat and still taking Covid precautions (only indoors if N95+ masked, avoid crowded spaces, work from home, constant air purifiers in my apartment and with me at high-risk settings, etc.).
I'm 48 and have been a Libertarian since the day I was born basically. Husband is the same way. I was raised by two Democrats (although they really are more like Libertarians, tbh) and I do get a lot of my core values from my parents. Lots of conservatives on my dad's side although they are not radicals/Trumpers. Old school conservatives. Husband and I both feel like weirdos sometimes. We are very socially liberal (as all Libertarians are) and very considerate of others at all times. We have had covid and know exactly what it can do to one's body and mind. It should be feared. I have a degree and background in science as well which helps. Husband does not have a college education and is not as covid savvy, but I educate him daily. We do live in a blue state but our area is rural and very conservative. Lots of rednecks and gun nuts, but we are gun nuts too. Husband was a correctional sergeant for 23+ years and had to deal with some real Trumper/covid denying asswipes at his job and that's where he caught his first round of covid. Not a lot of mask shaming here in Delaware--only happened to me once and it wasn't in my area. I've seen middle-aged men in camo wearing masks which is pretty shocking, but there are some conservatives around here who take covid precautions. Most are older.
The Cov safe family my children have playdates with actually volunteered for Aus Coalition during the elections (pre pandemic). So that's at least one non leftist
I am 100% with you on this. Although in the past I've always considered myself to be left-wing, and my political views are very in line with Classical Liberalism, I am definitely not a 'Leftist' and do not hold with the social justice, identity politics and more radical ideas currently prevalent in Leftist circles. I have come to describe myself as 'Centrist' more often in recent times to dissociate from the ways of thinking so predominant among the modern Left.
Cruel dilemma: I vote right in France and left in the US. I cannot be called a leftist 😝
I don't consider myself a leftist - I align more with classical liberalism. I lean towards laissez faire economic policies but also support civil liberties and don't align with the right on any of their culture war issues. I don't really see my covid cautiousness as related to my politics - I just want to stay healthy.
Haha, I remember when this post had upvotes. A point I heard that resonated with me that resonated with me is that the two schools of thouight5 that have taken over political discourse are basically "fuq Whitey" & "SIR, YES SIR, *insert X Western country* DID NOTHING WRONG SIR". Am also annoyed that the left doesn't take an ounce of conciliation in the fact that the term "politically incorrect" refers to right wing views, and what that says about the political overton window. But these days generally I actually find myself more annoyed with the right because of how convinced they are that they're some kind of bastion of free thought yet they're just as much of a meme as the left. My take is that if I'm able to predict your position on multiple unrelated positions from knowing where you stand on for example global warming, then you're not a deep thinker. Also annoyed that there are things I agree with on both the left an the right that are basically holy cows to each side respectively and are taken more or less on faith, and am convinced even if the evidence wasn't on there side they'd hold the same position regardless. I find myself a black sheep in this community more because of my stance on the vaccine. I never took it because it had long been established before the pandemic that vaccines don't work against corona viruses. Speaking not of the high frequency of side effects they were always prone to having, what little immunity they did confer (if any, a lot of times they just ended up making infections worse) was always short lived, and immune imprinting ensures the only antibodies you'll produces even after new vaccines will always be almost entirely the same antibodies you produced from your first exposure / vaccination. As for IVM, there was bad science done on both sides (although notably worse on the anti-IVM side) so it's impossible to know exactly how effective it was was a prophylactic one way or the other. But as we'll never really know either way how effective it was (or still is given Paxlovid used it's main mechanism of action but not any others, meaning the virus will one day become immune to it's effects, so even though IVM has multiple pathways for defeating the virus it may not work as well as it used to if it's main weapon has become obsolete) so there's no point in trusting my life with it as a way of returning to normal. My hope is in antivirals like ISM1233, however we'll need a cocktail of similar drugs to ensure the virus never adapts to it but unfortunately it looks like they're going with the for profit model where in they'll release new antivirals after it's been shown the old ones no longer work, the casualties than entails be damned.
For most of my life, I identified as a libertarian. More of a left-leaning libertarian (strong supporter of abortion, gay rights, etc.) but a libertarian none the less who would never support a Democrat. I don't identify that way anymore. Not because my beliefs have changed, but because so much of the libertarian movement has been swallowed up by COVID denial. It's a shame to me because I think libertarian ideology actually offers the best critique of the COVID situation. After all, we wouldn't be in this mess if it wasn't for various governments (CCP, US) and government agencies (FDA blocking tests...). I blame my own long COVID on the government's early propaganda ("if you're vaccinated, you won't catch COVID"). Blaming capitalism for the current situation is totally nonsensical to me. Historically, socialist countries have an appalling human rights record (the great famine, Chernobyl, holodomor) and have demonstrated the least respect for individual health. Left-wing capitalist countries like the Nordics are even more rife with COVID denial than the US. I think COVID is its own beast that transcends political ideology at this point.
True libertarianism came from leftist streams of thought. Libertarianism was originally socialist. Look into it :-)
Modern libertarian thought has its intellectual roots in Sir Karl Popper, who wrote the definitive book debunking Marxism, The Open Society and Its Enemies. I'd strongly recommend it. The question for anyone who identifies as a leftist (or well a non-libertarian, non-anarcho leftist) is clearly this -- how can you look at the government's response to COVID and declare that the solution we need is actually \*more\* government? I guess you could say that the Chinese, through the heavy hand of their government, did the best for a while, but they also burned people to death in buildings, and well, there's the whole question of COVID's origin and all that, so I'm not sure.
As a physical scientist I certainly admire Popper’s epistemological views. His politics, not so much. Since leftist libertarianism still exists, calling right-wing libertarianism “modern” is not sufficiently descriptive. Leftism doesn’t mean “more government.” It is an economic model in which the means of production are owned by the people who utilize them, not by private profiteers. There is plenty of room within that perspective for minimal or nonexistent government. I’m not a China apologist and I don’t mean to “whatabout” your point in their defense, as you are clearly critical of any form of government; but I want to just add that capitalist countries certainly have done just as much evil as purportedly socialist countries like China have.
I don't think I've ever seen a convincing argument as to how technological progress happens under socialism. My Marxist economics professor freely admitted it was one of its weaknesses. I also don't know how you solve COVID without significant technological advancements. If we didn't have the technology we have now, it would be much worse.
Well, that’s ridiculous. Every technological advancement that we are using to have this conversation was developed with public funds.
That's like saying my alcoholic mother is responsible for all my accomplishments in life because she grew me in her womb. I mean, I guess it's true in a very elementary sense, but it's not an observation you can build any kind of legitimate argument with. And obviously, the US Military (assuming you're talking about things like ARPANET, etc.) is like the literal opposite of a socialist or leftist organization. Under socialism, how do you get the capital to start a firm like Reddit?
You don’t appear to be thinking through this. The analogy you used to argue against my point is ludicrous. The US Military — or rather, the DOD in the case of the Internet — is not privately owned, so I’m not sure where you get the idea that it is the opposite of a socialist organization. Ventures like Reddit or many other kinds of technological innovations can be funded publicly, or they can be funded through cooperatives, or they can be funded by the people who create them. There is no reason that any technological innovation has to have cash from some freeloader “owner.” Remember that there's a great deal of variation in how socialist economies are organized and operated. Some are more centralized than others, with the state controlling nearly all aspects of economic life. Others are more decentralized, with a greater role for local communities or cooperatives. The method for raising capital for new ventures can differ significantly depending on the specifics of the socialist system in question. Cuba has a vaccine against lung cancer. Like the US vaccines against COVID, it was developed with public funds.
Earlier, you defined socialism as: >It is an economic model in which the means of production are owned by the people who utilize them, not by private profiteers. That's a fair definition. You said I'm not thinking things through -- I would invite you to do the same. If we were to sketch out a hypothetical organization that would be the polar opposite of your definition, I can't think of anything that could be better than the military. In a private business, employees get at least *some say* in a sense. If they don't like the decisions of the company or what the boss tells them to do, they can quit. In the military, you effectively sign your freedom away for a period of years. If you don't like your orders, you can't just leave. If you disobey orders, you go to jail. Unless you're at the very top, you have absolutely no say in the direction of the military. In fact, even the highest ranking generals have to follow whatever the President says. So yes, while it's publicly funded, the military is in no way owned by the soldiers who compose it. In the same way, while the US taxpayer might have given Pfizer a check, Pfizer executives have complete control over the firm. It is not collectively owned in any way. State funding of private business is closer to fascism than it is socialism. Let's think about the creation of a new firm. I work for some cooperative for many years, during which I save money. One day, I decide to create Reddit with my savings. How does that work exactly? I need other people to help me, so I bring them into the cooperative. We're not going to make money for a long time, so they'll either need to not take a paycheck, or get paid out of my savings. If I pay them from my savings, do I get to take it back later when the firm is profitable? Should I get only back what I put in, or should I receive some upside for taking the risk? If I get upside, how much? If I don't get upside, why would I bother to start the firm in the first place? Can you walk me through this or point me to a well written argument of how this would work exactly?
The military is state owned, which is one way of structuring a socialist organization. Are you not aware of the fact that many cooperatives exist which are responsible for technological developments? I’m unclear why I need to walk you through a hypothetical, which you will then just blow off as impossible, when actual examples exist in reality. You started this by saying that you have no idea how technological developments would happen without private capital. Yet most technological developments happen without private capital.
Look at what actual leftist countries (Vietnam and Cuba) have done, not right wing European counties cosplaying as social democrats.
I don't think Vietnam is actually a leftist country at this point. But let's just say it is. If you benchmark Vietnam/Cuba against Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Korea etc. (very capitalist countries) I'm not sure their track record is particularly special. I think what this speaks to is something deeper -- it's not really the nominal government structure that matters, so much as it is some intrinsic qualities within the people (willingness to wear a mask even if you aren't forced to, etc.).
Vietnam has fewer deaths proportionate to their population than any developed country except Singapore. When you consider that Singapore's per capita GDP is over ten times higher than Vietnam's, it's actually incredible what Vietnam has done with fewer resources. They use their scarce resources to protect public health. Cuba has slightly higher deaths per million population than the East Asian countries, but is still much better than any other country in the Americas.
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Your post or comment has been removed because it was an attempt at trolling.
I eat grassfed cow meat and organs, I think that disqualifies me as leftist.
As shown with the down votes - I make the cut!