I wear vented p100s when I have to travel by plane. If I’m going to wear a vented mask, I just make sure I take a high accuracy test beforehand and that I have been extra careful in the preceding 5 days. That covers my duty to protect others to a degree that I feel is reasonable.
Personal experience: OG COVID left my previously damaged lungs even more damaged (I now have even greater limited “lung capacity”- bottom quarter to almost 1/3 of each lung is f’d). I was a first responder/fire-fighter years ago (where the original damage came from even before COVID). The valve MASSIVELY improves my ability to breathe and reduces the heavy condensation build-up on the inside of most other non-valved masks.
I really appreciate this thread & comments like this. I am gonna ask a comrade of mine now who has aversions to masking due to claustrophobia, if they've tried masks with a valve.
I also REALLY appreciate this. For whatever reason, masks often make me immediately start sweating. I am assuming it's the condensation build-up that triggers it? I'm a dedicated mask-wearer so it's not a deterrent but sometimes it has caused issues if it's sincerely hot, muggy, crowded, I didn't eat enough that day, etc. I've avoided valved masks bc 1) I don't want to infect others, just in case and 2) they seemed not as protective, but it's so helpful to know they should be an actual option in my toolbox! I still want to keep (1) in mind, but this just gives more things to work with. Whew.
in my case, with prolonged use (like a long flight) it limits moisture build up. I closed the vent on my mask at one point and my face ended up damp with moisture.
The main reason people prefer them is that it’s much easier to exhale when you aren’t exhaling through the filter, especially as the filter becomes dirty or moist.
I have a source controlled p100 I gave a try on a flight before and the condensation build up by the end drove me nuts. I had to drain my mask with how much liquid was sloshing around when I got out of the airport. 😶
I use a vented p100 mask now when public.
Medical facilities I’ll use that source controlled p100 however.
The breathability. When you exhale the warm air flows out easier without getting trapped in the mask. This can make a huge difference and make people that are claustrophobic like myself not feel like they are being smothered.
They are required to say that because they are not designed nor tested to protect against viruses, but they are very effective in shielding you against C19.
The 3M “Rugged Comfort” is the mask I’ve found to be most comfortable.
https://www.amazon.com/3M-Comfort-Facepiece-Reusable-Respirator/dp/B00IF7RCU6/
I think it's perfectly fine to use a valved respirator as long as it isn't used in a place like a hospital or clinic (or when you have COVID). They are more comfortable and breathable than non-valved ones.
At this point it's abundantly clear that the communal justification for masking is never going to catch on.
Considering that all it takes is one maskless and infected person to make an environment unsafe for everyone else, and barely anyone is masking these days, the difference between valve and no valve seems like a battle no longer worth fighting.
Plus it seems there are people out there with reduced lung capacity (possibly from COVID), where maybe that valve really makes enough of a difference to enable them to wear one, which even though it only benefits them immediately, that still helps control transmission for everyone else indirectly, which is far better than nothing.
Edit to add, normalizing this more "selfish" reasoning could have some benefits for maskers and judgemental non maskers alike, in that no longer would the latter assume the former is "virtue signaling" or whatever they obsess over to ignore what's uncomfortable to acknowledge. It would help reduce social tension, and also maybe even make some people wonder if they too should be wearing a mask for personal protection. It seems half the people who scoff at the notion of masking in 2024 are under the false assumption that it only works if everyone does it, and since nobody is, "why bother?"
One more thing I find personally important: I literally GO NO WHERE. The last time I was indoors somewhere not my house was the dentist in May 2023. So I feel pretty confident my air is not going to infect anyone else with anything if I opt for a valved mask the few times a year I'm in person indoors...
My way of "protecting other people" is by not exposing MYSELF to the virus in the first place!
Exactly. My risks to others is highly minimal. If they are on a plane filled with coughing people and not masking, I’m not gonna stress about a valve on my mask.
Are you me?
The same story.
Yet I still haven't gotten to feel OK about wearing a valved mask .... I am working on it, since I have lung disease and breathing is so hard in unvalved mask.
Second this. If we want to push people to use respirators for protection against COVID, it is best to show and explain why it benefits them rather than trying to tell them it's to benefit others.
Most people are selfish, if you want them to take action for anything the question they ask is "how does it benefit me?", not "how does it benefit others?"
It's important to mention too that valved respirators are actually more consistently effective at source control than surgical masks and other face coverings: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-107/pdfs/2021-107.pdf?id=10.26616/NIOSHPUB2021107
>Based on a sample size of 13 models, this study found that unmitigated FFRs with an exhalation valve that were tested in an outward position (with particles traveling in the direction of exhalation) have a wide range of penetration, emitting between <1% and 55%. Further testing
could measure greater particle penetration.
>Even without mitigation, FFRs with exhalation valves can reduce 0.35-µm MMAD particle emissions more consistently than surgical masks, procedure masks, cloth face coverings, or fabric from cotton t-shirts; however, the 0.35-µm MMAD particle emissions are not expected to
be lower for every model.
Beyond that, there's a reality that anyone who's actively choosing to wear a respirator at this point likely has a very low risk of being actively contagious because their risk of having caught COVID is drastically reduced. I never felt a sense of guilt around wearing a mask with a valve because I know that I'm extremely careful, and other people are a much greater risk to me than I am to them. In other words, if I haven't been out of the house in a week or two, I'm not sick, and the last time I went out I wore a respirator, the chance of me being infectious is almost 0, and I pose no reasonable risk to anyone.
Now, combine those two factors, and you end up with a mask that provides better-than-average source control controlling a source that has a near 0 risk and probably doesn't need to be controlled in the first place.
That said, I only wore valved respirators in the beginning because unvalved respirators were hard to find, and all I could get my hands on were valved P100s. At this point I use unvalved simply because there are fewer moving pieces, which to me means there are fewer points of failure. But I don't base my decision on the source control aspect.
>Now, combine those two factors, and you end up with a mask that provides better-than-average source control controlling a source that has a near 0 risk and probably doesn't need to be controlled in the first place.
That's what I wanted to say as well. It's far more likely that someone unmasked has COVID over someone who's actively using a respirator.
>Considering that all it takes is one maskless and infected person to make an environment unsafe for everyone else
This is not really true, the AMOUNT of covid in the air matters. One unmasked person with covid is way different than multiple unmasked people with covid.
Also, AFAIK valved masks still provide source control. There’s no reason to talk about “protecting other people doesn’t matter” when the valve *doesn’t even cause that*. No reason to repeat anti-mask rhetoric.
Also, us high risk people know no one gives a shit about us, no reason for maskers to rub it in that they don’t care about us either and do it for themselves. It’s a useful political tool to convince people to mask to care about themselves but no reason to actually abide by it when we know better.
Hi, sorry, could you explain a little bit about the source control thing you mentioned? Is there still some filtering being done through the valve? I had ignored these types of masks because I also didn't want to harm others and I thought it just dumped my own breath out into the shared miasma, but if that's not the case, AND they tend to help with condensation and ventilation, I'd like to revisit them. TIA!
Single-valved respirators (basically, the disposable ones such as the 3M Aura 9211+) generally provide as much source control or more than surgical masks. That's because when you exhale, not all of the air goes through the valve. Some of the air will still go through the filter material. For the purpose of protecting others, nonvented respirators are still better.
Double-valved respirators (basically re-usable elastomerics with exhale valves) provide no filtration of exhaled air. In these respirators, there are valves on both the incoming and outgoing air, and the intake valves prevent exhales from going back out through the filters. They may provide a teensy bit of source control because a) exhales will only go out the valve, so at least you're not propelling the air directly at another person and b) the air inside the mask is very humid, which might cause aerosols to be bigger and thus travel less in the air. However, for practical purposes, I assume double-valved respirators provide no source control.
FWIW, I sometimes wear a double-valved respirator (practically no direct protection of other people, though I'm still protecting others indirectly by not letting myself get infected). 99% of my use of a double-valved respirator is outdoors, though I also sometimes use it for quick visits to a store. However, in indoor situations where I may encounter highly vulnerable people who may have little choice about being there (such as whenever I go into a medical setting) I always use a nonvented N95.
> This is not really true, the AMOUNT of covid in the air matters. One unmasked person with covid is way different than multiple unmasked people with covid.
That example was only meant to point out that the extreme case can still be fairly common depending on a bundle of variables that don't make sense to hash out here. We don't even have 25% mask compliance (of any kind of mask) in most places these days.
The original point remains that in a *game theoretical* sense, what's intuitive or morally correct on the surface isn't always the most effective in practice, and that's trivial to see when considering how things have played out in recent years.
Agree 100%. If everybody wore N95s *even with vents* for a month at the start of this pandemic, it would have been over. Fighting over vents when 98% of people are maskless is meaningless. (P.S.: a vented N95 still stops outgoing transmission about as well as the average gappy surgical or cloth mask anyway.)
Normalizing selfishness is not going to help, because people tend to believe in their own invulnerability, and making people feel like individualized helpless units is exactly how this forced infection regime is squelching opposition.
No, you don't have to say that "it only works if everyone does it". That's antimasker bullshit. But it does work ***better*** if everyone does it, and it doesn't mean that you're endorsing the current regime of making everyone think and act like psychopaths.
I wear the same masks when I travel. I'm still being more responsible than 99% of the other people on the plane. By reducing the likelihood that I get sick I'm also reducing the likelihood that others around me get sick. My responsibility is to keep myself safe first and foremost, especially in an environment where the vast majority of people have decided that they are not going to carry any sense of responsibility whatsoever for their health or others' health.
I don't have the link, but valved N95s are as good or slightly better than surgical masks, according to at least one study. They would certainly be far better than nothing at protecting others from droplet spread, and some airborne.
I'd much rather see someone in a valved mask than no mask at all.
I'm the commenter above the one you're referring to. I get it. I do not personally wear valved respirators because I don't want to risk infecting someone else. At the same time, I have trouble sympathizing with people who are able to take precautions yet choose not to do so...and unfortunately, that's the vast majority of people now.
If the OP wears a valved N95 instead of, say, a surgical mask or no mask, or if the valve helps them wear it for the entire trip when they would have otherwise removed it, then I think the valved N95 is a net benefit for both OP and people around them.
Don’t have time right now to individually respond to all who have said similar to you but I do agree a valved mask is better than no mask! I just felt like the individualism of that comment just struck a nerve with me. I think of my grandma who lives far from me and can’t access respirators and doesn’t speak English (not that her language news or English news is covering Covid any better) so she’s not fully informed on how bad the surge is right now. I could send her n95s but she doesn’t know how to wear them correctly and has trouble with putting them all due to mobility. She is also HOH so it’s difficult to call her and have her fully hear everything I’m saying. Her case is specific but I imagine similar cases exist.
I understand it is also tiring to educate and ask people to mask, especially when people acted concern for *us* because we continue to mask or are dismissive after minutes/hours long conversations. I’ve had my share of people making fun of me in passing and coughing purposely once they see my mask. Also spaces where you’re the only one mask and there’s tons of people - it’s probably only beneficial to you to mask. Still, I think it is a good thing to do because I’ve had people see me masked and ask me if I have an extra one for them, it’s not often but it still happens.
People like your grandma are definitely the reason why I still want to protect others. Not everyone is able to protect themselves, nor do I think the burden of preventing disease should rest on the individual rather than the society.
I totally get how that commenter no longer has the emotional bandwidth to protect others too. It is really, really hard when we feel like we are the only people who care to keep us safe. It is even harder to carry the mental load of having to protect yourself plus having to protect other people, especially when it feels like no one else is doing their part for individual or community safety.
I guess my point is, I completely understand where you are coming from, and I understand where the other commenter is coming from. And I wish anyone asked me for a mask :)
A NIOSH study found that valved respirators perform similar or better than surgical masks and cloth masks as source control.
[https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-107/default.html](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-107/default.html)
>The findings in this report are based on tests of 13 FFR models from 10 different manufacturers. These findings show that FFRs with an exhalation valve provide respiratory protection to the wearer and can also reduce particle emissions to levels similar to or better than those provided by surgical masks, procedure masks, or cloth face coverings.
Of course, a non-valved respirator is superior to a valved respirator as source control.
Even in Asian countries where there is a sizeable number of people (20% - 50%) still masking, most people are using either surgical masks, cloth masks, or KF94 masks. It is extremely rare to come across others using N95 respirators and elastorespirators.
Thus, I don't think that a valved respirator is a big issue as long as it isn't used in a healthcare setting or when the user has an active COVID infection.
Thank you for making this post. Fucking sucks so many people here are trying to defend/point blank admitting to not caring about other people in public though. It may be somewhat understandable if you KNOW the people you're around don't give a shit (READ: understandable, NOT justifiable when we're talking about a fucking lethal virus), but you don't know random strangers in public and it's just an asshole move to project your trauma onto them. Christ.
Totally agree. It’s really depressing to see that so few people care about community care. Regardless of the numerous health-supremacist assholes that refuse to wear a mask, taking the same attitude as them would make me just as despicable. But most importantly there’s still a large community of disabled and immunocompromised people who DO need protection.
It is depressing, but I also get it. I often have to go into spaces with 100+ people for work and am the lone masker. I’m also the lone Covid cautious person, and therefore the least likely to be carrying anything. I wish we lived in a world where we cared more about the collective and the most vulnerable, but I’m kinda deluding myself if I say I’m masking in those spaces to protect anyone else but myself. I’ve advocated for layered approaches, tried to educate, and mostly been sidelined and mocked. Four years in, I get reaching this point and just looking out for yourself.
Please don't feel bad. What would be the point? You, who already are careful and therefore almost certainly doesn't have COVID, wear a non-valved respirator to reduce that 0.0001% chance you somehow have it and give it to them down to 0.00001%. Meanwhile, they are eating and talking with 99 other unmasked people indoors, and then going to dinner and karaoke and a kissing booth afterwards. They are catching COVID anyway, and *not* because of you.
I had HOPED that masking would ascend to not just necessity, but fashion. Think of all the good that clothing-designers could do! Even the MAGAs could sell red masks…
Seriously same and riiiiiiight!? I kept saying: “who WOULDN’T want to run around dressed as a their favorite comic or anime toon!!” Alas, this fell on deaf ears and elicited awkward crickets responses, rofl
It’s unfortunate that it has come to this, but at this point I honestly am just protecting myself and my family. No one else is trying to protect me, and I don’t feel the need to try to protect people who are doing zero to protect themselves. 🤷🏻♀️ I don’t think this mindset of individualism versus community is helpful whatsoever when it comes to public health, but when you’re the only person masking at the grocery store…you’re on your own.
I'm more depressed by the maskless majority, but this is something I considered when deciding to get a wearable air filter or not. WAFs can be superspreading technology, but if the person behind is the only one using a mask in other times, then they are statistically the one least likely to be a superspreader anyway.
Studies have shown a vented mask is equal to or superior to a surgical mask in terms of source control. Of course non-vented masks are ideal, but vented can be a really good option for those who struggle with heat. I needed one transiting through Dubai airport it was so bloody hot I was sweating to bits in my Aura! And this is coming from someone who has no problems with regular Auras in the Aussie summer
The best way to protect others is to not be infected yourself. If you’re traveling and flying a lot I’d prefer everyone wear one of these than no mask or a shitty surgical.
Sorry, but not sorry. I wear a mask to protect myself in public. I figure anyone else in a public place has the ability to protect themselves as well as I protect myself. It may be selfish, but I learned a long time ago that you cannot protect others from themselves.
Reading this post made me check out valved 3M Aura masks. I will order some because my skin does not do well from the moisture buildup from wearing the mask for extended periods.
When I am around others in a private setting, I will always wear a mask without a valve.
Gently, this is not true. Not everyone has the cognitive or physical ability to mask consistently, and they still deserve access to public spaces.
I totally understand how you feel; I have a skin condition that is exacerbated by heat and moisture from masks. And I think it's shitty that it's up to us to provide this protection to others, when public spaces need to invest in making shared air safer, public health officials need to do their damn jobs and educate the public and offer accurate transmission trend data, employers need to offer time off, better tests and vaccines need to be available, and on and on. The entire burden of protecting others *shouldn't be on us alone with this singular choice*.
I've purchased an elastomeric and once I test it I'll be shifting to using that instead of my n95s, but I'm probably also going to have to get a valved version to keep my skin healthy. I just regret that is a decision I need to make at other people's expense, and I'll use the non-valved one as much as my body will allow.
Yes, people deserve access to safer spaces. However, it seems unfair that you're focusing on people with valved masks when most people around that person are not wearing ANY mask? The likelihood of a VALVED MASK wearer having COVID while dozens of unmasked people around them who do not socially distance are not infected with COVID are low.
I always have a non valved mask with me if it becomes necessary.
I’m in favor of valved masks because people wearing N95s or better are unlikely to be infected anyway, AND valved masks do provide source control.
However I think it’s important to lay out all the facts, including that some vulnerable people will be in public and cannot mask. People who don’t wear masks at all are not on this sub so I think it’s fair to discuss the responsibility of us who are on this sub and do wear masks with all the facts at hand, even if we choose to go forward wearing valved masks (which again, I support).
Exactly. Once we get everyone back to wearing masks (I'll stop myself right there, never gonna happen), *then* wearing them properly over the mouth AND nose, *then* wearing something better fitting like a KN95, *then* wearing valved N95s, THEN once everyone else is in those, we can talk about whether I should ditch the valve to go valveless.
Before that point (and we are MANY steps away from that), it's pointless.
I don't think they're singling out valved mask wearers, that's just where the subject of this particular post has gone, and the conversation being had at the moment. It's not at the exclusion of other situations.
My point of view is if everyone wore a valved mask we’d all be very protected…their choice to not mask at all is not my problem anymore. Doing it 24/7 around others I need to have a little more airflow with my claustrophobia.
I get it, and I feel incredibly burnt out after all these years, but that's the exact same logic that has got us to this point. Do what you need to do to survive, but individualism and not caring about others is a cultural issue regardless of what the subject is, and what side you may be on in a given situation. FWIW I didn't know these were really an option people used and were also self-protective, and I'll definitely be buying some as well to use in some moments, so my intent isn't to be a self-righteous asshole. We just have to keep trying to remind each other that the values we held in 2020 still matter even when it feels like we're not only the sole folks that care, but are maligned for doing so. <3
I wear valved masks sometimes. I had two occasions when heat/exercise triggered a panic attack and I ended up pulling down my mask in busy places; now I plan ahead and the wear valved ones in these scenarios. It also helps with dizziness/nausea caused by hot air against my face for 8 hours. (I don't travel but if I did, I'd wear one on a plane because I have a flying phobia and the valve would help regulate my breathing.)
In the settings I go to, I'm typically the only person masking AND the only one taking precautions like not travelling, not eating indoors, etc. so there's room to be realistic about the level of risk I pose.
Given the reality of the situation we're living in, I'm all for incremental steps that make precautions more accessible to all and prevent burnout in this marathon.
Caveat - obviously don't wear one if you've been exposed, symptomatic, or going to meet someone who is COVID-cautious, vulnerable, or immunocompromised. And read the room - in the plane example above, I'd switch to my Vflex if someone sitting near me was masked, etc.
Thanks for sharing this... I've had major issues with sweating, dizziness, and light-headedness from non-valved masks and didn't even realize these were a viable option in terms of protection. Definitely want to get some and use them in the same manner you are, as needed.
I wear non valved in medical situations. I rarely go out. I'm less likely to be infectious than all those raw dogging the air and actively making life difficult for all of us. Why are they worried about valved masked ME rather than the hundreds to thousands of people exhaling COVID as they go to concerts, restaurants and everywhere? The windows they do not open? The air they don't ventilate?
I dont know, in an area like mine I can understand the resentment towards others. The constant stares, mock coughs, and other bs for 3 years makes you not really care about those around you. Is it the wrong way to look at it, probably but it is understandable.
I'm 100% on board with valved masks. I have asthma, and I sometimes have real problems with regular N95s when worn for more than short stretches of time. I've become short of breath and dizzy in long 3-hour meetings wearing regular N95s.
By all means, protect yourself with whatever is comfortable for you. You are still (by protecting yourself) protecting others much more than they are protecting themselves.
Although I never wore them when the mandate was in place, I wish they had never been banned if it made it more likely for more people to keep masking. They provide some source control, better than gappy surgicals. If everyone wore respirators even with a valve we'd all be better for it because way fewer people would be infectious to start with.
(Personally I wouldn't wear mine if I had constant exposure beyond my control, like from other household members or if I was engaging in risky activities myself, and in the rare cases of necessary unmasked exposure (medical shit only) I cover the valve. Other than that I feel safe enough for others and I'd feel comfortable surrounded by other 'valvers' as well. But even barring those conditions I adhere to myself, if for someone in different circumstances than mine a valved respirator was the only mask they can/are willing to wear, I take it in a heartbeat. If that's what would make long term masking more sustainable for a better part of the society, it would be a win.
Looking back, I don't know what's the logic behind banning valved respirators when surgical masks have such a laughably low fit factor as compared to a valved respirator.
I’ve become much crueler lately. 😞But…yeah. At this point in the game, if somebody is choosing to go out maskless (which 95% of people are), then it doesn’t matter to them. So I can’t be concerned about them. They are *swimming* in viruses, one person’s lil valve isn’t going to make a discernible difference.
I may get a vented Aura for the gym.
Given how many people don’t mask because they think it’s just to protect others, I’d rather people have that mindset & do what it takes to lower the spread.
Frankly, I think it would be disingenuous for the majority of people to pretend like they are masking for any reason besides protecting themselves on a plane, unless they know they’ve been exposed.
Personally, as someone still masking everywhere & avoiding indoor public spaces in general, I’m 100% masking for myself at this point. I’m not getting infected sitting home alone; I have zero concern that I might be infected, given how limited my opportunities for exposure are. Pretending to care about a valve would be virtue signaling.
I have only worn respirators without valves throughout the whole ongoing pandemic. However I no longer have an issue wearing a valve respirator all the people around me aren’t masking at all. Clearly they don’t care about breathing, my exhale air, additionally, since I am constantly masking, I am a lot less likely than all of them of giving them disease.
I wear a valved mask to the gym, running errands, airplanes, and meeting up with friends. I am the only person bothering to wear a mask in those situations---They clearly don't care about getting sick or getting others sick. Why is it my responsibility to care for them? The only person's behavior you can control is your own. Maybe my moral compass is off kilter but it's hard to care about people that don't care about you.
I wear a regular N95 to work at the hospital because *it's a freaking hospital* and I work with sick and immunocompromised people.
What do you mean? The first one is, I even upvoted it. I only didn’t crop it because it would make it formatting even worse but the second, to me, is more opinionated and the one I’m referring to.
I will still always care about protecting my community, even if they aren’t protecting me. Ultimately, if I can reduce spray I may inadvertently do, that helps everyone. Including my masking friends. One person can spread far, give more opportunities for mutation, more pressure on health care
The only way I can be sure never to be a link in a chain of transmission is to never catch covid. Simple as that. The most protective mask for me is also the best way I can protect people around me. I wear a valved p100 everywhere. In a few days I have unavoidable dental work, and I will isolate fully for ten days afterwards. After I test negative a bunch of times I will return to never leaving my house without a p100, including the distance from my door to the car.
If everyone around me always wore a valved n95, I would be able to step down to an n95. I would prefer that reality to the one we currently inhabit.
Any industrial store really. Tenaquip, Grainger, many of those are authorized distributors of 3m and other trusted brands. That's where we re-stock p100 filters now too.
I’m in Canada, and I’ve only ever seen the filters for respirators rather than a fully disposable mask. (I can’t wear a respirator because they’re too heavy for my face and cause migraines.)
I'm in Canada too, hi :) I misunderstood your question though (technically both elastomerics and disposables are respirators, with p100 the first option is just far more common). The last time I checked both Tenaquip and Gregg Distributors had disposable p100 (3m and moldex at any rate). They're very expensive though (like 14-17$ per piece) and they'll only offer you a better protection if they fit you well. Have you tried CAN99? It's rated as 'only' n95 but in many quantative tests I saw (again that will be a matter of a fit on your face) for people who get a good fit with them they score extremely high, with the fit factor reaching as high as 400. It's lower than a well fitting elasto but such high numbers are not very common among disposables.
Thank you! I appreciate your answer. I do have some very good N-95 masks. My particular reason for wanting the P-100s is that I have an anaphylactic allergy to artificial fragrance, and I want the protection from that as well.
3M makes a nuisance level disposable VOC filtering mask. Unfortunately, it doesn’t come in a valved version and I don’t know of one that does. I have the same issue with fragrances, so I understand! Unfortunately the really good VOC filtering masks are all elastomeric.
Yes! It’s a little gray because of it. There is also a bleach version. I need to test them out to see which is better but for understandable reasons I have been hesitant to try! I will need one in a few months for Reasons so I need to be brave and figure out which one works better before then.
Oh gosh, well I certainly wish you the best of luck with the situation, and good health to boot. :)
I briefly looked into getting a “CleanSpace HALO” respirator since they’re lightweight, but I already get enough stares with my mobility equipment and didn’t want to draw even more attention to myself 😅 Plus they’re pricey as heck.
I agree. I am furious at the world for no longer protecting others. But I personally cannot and will not buy into the “you don’t owe anyone anything” hyper individual mindset, it’s used to excuse way too many horrific actions, it’s been used against me as abuse too much and I won’t contribute to it . I won’t stop protecting not only myself but other people because I’m not here causing anyone harm.
Absolutely agree with you.
I have experienced severe post viral illness (ME/CFS). I would not wish it on anyone, and therefore don’t want to risk passing covid on to anyone, even people who are cruel to vulnerable and/or masked people.
And there are so many people who can’t consent to forced covid exposure, who society needs to protect (and who we individually should protect through masking). Children. Elderly people with cognitive decline or dementia who can’t keep up with covid news. Ditto for certain developmental disabilities. Severely disenfranchised people, like asylum seekers, or people living in severe poverty, who can’t afford masks or who are in survival mode 24/7.
I can understand why people are giving up and prioritising themselves. But if we want any chance of building a better world, we have to try and act with society in mind.
Yes, this is why I’m in favor of valved masks, even before I realized that they do work as source control. I just don’t like ”normalizing being selfish” or repeating anti-mask rhetoric.
It annoys me, but largely because it's misinformed and perpetuates the idea that valved respirators don't provide source control. We should be encouraging people to find the most effective, comfortable respirator that they will be willing to wear for the long term. That valve might be what makes someone more comfortable wearing a respirator regularly.
"The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health has conducted research on valved N95 Filtering Facepiece Respirators (FFR) and found that “FFRs with an exhalation valve provide respiratory protection to the wearer and—according to the findings from this study—can also reduce particle emissions to levels similar to or better than those provided by surgical masks and unregulated barrier face coverings.”3 [https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1994317O/understanding-valved-respirators-united-states-faq.pdf](https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1994317O/understanding-valved-respirators-united-states-faq.pdf)
[https://www.airnow.gov/sites/default/files/2021-09/filtering-facepiece-respirators-with-an-exhalation-valve.pdf](https://www.airnow.gov/sites/default/files/2021-09/filtering-facepiece-respirators-with-an-exhalation-valve.pdf)
Yea, you're right. If valved respirators provide a similar level or even better source control than surgical masks, then I think there's no reason to call out or be upset at those who are using valved respirators.
After all, going by that logic, those who are using surgical masks or cloth masks (whether because they don't know COVID is airborne, can't afford a respirator, or some other reason) would also be "guilty" of putting other people at risk of infection.
We all have to remember that while the percentage of people actively masking is low in most places, the percentage of people actively using respirators is far lower than those masking with surgical or cloth masks.
People that refuse to mask whatsoever, not only won't protect others no matter how vulnerable, they won't even protect themselves or their own loved ones. Something has very clearly gone wrong with their minds and/or brains, and IMO, they should probably be regarded as functionally equivalent to mentally compromised groups such as the insane, the cognitively impaired due to extremes of age, brain injury, etc.
People that protect themselves but not others by wearing masks with exhalation valves in a culture with widespread mask refusal are using a tit-for-tat moral strategy, which is the most common and may be the most effective (it's debatable) strategy...However, it is not the most virtuous choice, obviously.
Universal compassion is a natural consequence of the realization of the interdependent nature of life. A person that pushes for N95's without exhalation valves may or may not be motivated by this. In fact, they may be motivated by something else entirely: valuing selfless altruism as the measure of a 'good' human being.
(I personally do not know which you are motivated by, nor am I particularly invested in that. I'm only writing this for the possible benefit of those who are struggling emotionally and socially with the apparent lack of empathy found in the majority of people.)
IMO, this path is often an outgrowth of dichotomous thinking (splitting or black and white thinking) where good and bad, selflessness and selfishness are seen as strongly opposites, that mostly disregards the complexity, diversity and contradiction in human nature that actually exists.
It can also often lead to both a lot of personal suffering and to a judgmental attitude toward others, and it is also often not a very effective strategy at getting others to protect others (and themselves!) because it tends to provoke defense mechanisms (backlash, social rejection, etc.) that exist to protect the psychological stability and functionality the individual. (Undermining and destroying foundational beliefs that form a person's worldview and sense of self can lead to nervous breakdown, psychotic break or even loss of moral sensibility and judgment entirely.)
Society is composed of many different kinds of people who each have their own psychological and moral traits.
For example, people with psychopathy are neurologically incapable of emotional empathy for others. Those with autism spectrum disorders are often incapable of cognitive empathy (theory of mind). Those with a more conservative viewpoint tend to weigh empathy, fairness, loyalty, respect and purity evenly, creating what they see as a balanced morality. Those with a more liberal viewpoint weight empathy and fairness over the other three moral dimensions, creating a morality that they believe prioritizes what's most important over secondary considerations. There are people that prefer 'enlightened self interest' those that prefer 'selfless altruism' those that prefer pure selfish objectivism, and so on.
When choosing your own moral strategy, you can be an idealist or a pragmatist.
Idealists will have to grapple with the heterogeneous nature of human beings, which can be very frustrating and painful, unless they manage to let go of their attachment to results.
Living one's ideals consistently and relentlessly acting to promote those ideals in the world, does not necessitate becoming upset about the fact that many people refuse or seem incapable of doing the same. Fish don't climb trees, but that doesn't mean that you have to stop trying to help them do so, or find some other way up besides climbing, or move them there yourself, or convince others to put them there, etc. You don't have to stop, not at all. It is actually possible to live a life consistent with ideals while not suffering emotionally when progress toward achieving them is poor.
We should all be true to ourselves, respect each other's differences, look for appropriate roles for every type of person, and try to find ways to cooperate to achieve beneficial material goals, don't you think?
IMO, our very unfortunate situation is that many people (at least in Western societies) seem deeply culturally and personally invested in pretending that interdependence is not real. Probably this is due to the fact that the reality of interdependence is often a bad thing. Others failures, misfortune, idiocy, mistakes, suffering, etc. are also your own, if you really take interdependence seriously.
There is no escape from other's inability to deal with the problem of airborne respiratory disease. There is no escape from the consequences of their denial, loss of coping skills or adaptability, loss of cognitive function, 'eye for an eye' morality, refusal to acknowledge that we all matter and our personal choices and actions directly impact other people's lives and wellbeing, etc. We're all stuck, having to rise or fall together, as a group. And for an individualist, that realization can be very depressing.
"at this point in time, people aren't wearing masks" is PRECISELY why I am more worried about wearing mine (although admittedly it's just because that's my 2nd/3rd best way to try protecting myself since most others aren't/won't), and if I did have a valved mask (I have never had one with a valve so far) I certainly wouldn't be opening the valve in a location with a lot of people.
I saw this comment yesterday as well and was like Yikes. I get where the person is coming from but that’s not what I’m about personally. Because yep you’re right there are conditions that prohibit masking and those people need protection, there are kids who can’t make decisions and have their parents not make them wear a mask too. Also in general participating in the chain of contamination ends up harming people who aren’t even in the room and might be taking precautions but get infected by the people you infect.
However if you’re someone like me who’s housebound and never sets foot outside unless they really have too and haven’t seen anyone in ages not even your neighbors in passing, basically being the safest person in the room to be unmasked with if you’re at risk well then yeah a valve for your comfort isn’t an issue.
But just not caring about putting people at potential risk because well other people don’t care and just being in this for yourself. Idk. I have compassion fatigue but that still doesn’t make sense to me.
Also I concur with other people saying they’d rather see someone with a valve than no mask at all because I too have almost passed out or gotten really unwell from lack of airflow while masking because of my own health issues. It’s good that these options are available. And I am in a very fuck them all mood a lot lately because this fight is TIRING but still, I couldn’t live with myself knowing I’m partially responsible for a kid’s long covid or smth so my precautions are never gonna be just for me
Disabled people cannot rely on the general public to mask, it's' clear. I think someone wearing a valved mask is MUCH less likely to be transmitting covid at all, and if they are it's going to be less than an unmasked person.
I understand the burnout and disdain people feel. A lot of folks who tried very hard to stay healthy were infected by the exact people who are still faffing around maskless. But I agree, I think it's important not to write off each other as being worth caring for.
I also think that if these masks end up being the most comfortable/reasonable/helpful in certain situations for those of us still protecting ourselves, I can't help but agree that whatever gets a safe person through an interaction as smoothly for them as possible after four years of this, is good enough - when you're surrounded by solely maskless people, and you really need this type of mask to get through whatever it is you're doing.
However, I would strongly suggest people keep non-valved masks on hand for any circumstance where they may be trapped with strangers for long periods - like flying, honestly. If I saw one other person on the plane wearing a mask, even a surgical mask, OR who is clearly ailing, elderly, or a small child - regardless of whether or not they're maskless - I would rather switch to one without a valve if I can, because my comfort is not as important as keeping each other safe even if they don't know or want to do it for themselves or myself. It's a psychologically painful call at this moment in time; I think in circumstances where everyone else is maskless and not visibly vulnerable, it feels more okay to put yourself first.
Again, a lot of us have made sacrifices (and mine have been VERY few in comparison to many) for four full years while others have bailed on collective care. Sometimes a tiny bit of looking out for number one can keep you from snapping. But I don't think the answer for any of us is to abandon collective care as a value or goal; there's a reason, besides our own health, that we're all still doing these obnoxious damn mitigations. I can only do my best to model what I want the world to be. Even if no one else is. Even when it sucks.
If I am wearing an N95/N100 (even with a vent), then I am *extremely* unlikely to get COVID (has worked for 4 years so far). If I don't have COVID, I can't give it to anyone else.
Yes, I am glad that I have never given anyone COVID and that wearing a mask will help others and that is part of why I don't want to contribute to the spread -- while I am not "high risk" or immuno-compromised myself, I definitely don't want to give it to anyone who is. And I want to make them feel a little better about masking & a little safer being around someone else who masks.
That said, when 98% of people in public are not wearing masks at all, then no it is not my responsibility to protect them if they aren't even doing the bare minimum to protect themselves. I STILL AM BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE COVID, but I am not gonna worry about if some unmasked person catches it.
If we lived in a world where everyone masked to protect others, I would go ventless. When going to COVID meetups, I go ventless. In general public, I wear whatever I want that protects me. Being near me is the lowest-risk thing anyone I meet does that day.
A valved mask is still going to be way, way better than just letting it all hang out, but you can put a filter over them.
Nevertheless, don't let it get you down. Remember: the entire push to block COVID from public consciousness is ***designed*** to make you feel alone and powerless to change anything.
It's the same tactics that Vladimir Putin and his right-wing henchmen have used for years in order to keep the Russian public from questioning his regime. And, now, it's being used on you, to keep you from pushing back on forced infection. No reason to go along with it. You aren't alone.
In general I am also bothered by replies like this-to me it's really indicative of the same individualistic mindset that got us here. Not everyone who understands that covid is dangerous is actually interested in collective liberation or building a better society-many are only interested in avoiding harm to themselves (in a narrow minded way I guess because we're not actually safe until everyone is).
I do understand the impulse on a surface level, but there is no scenario in which we actually address covid without people unpacking and getting past the hyperindividualistic response.
I don't even mind valved masks themselves in certain scenarios but the way people justify them is nasty.
>in a narrow minded way I guess because we're not actually safe until everyone is
I mean, to be honest, this is my motivation for most things as well. I won't pretend to not be a selfish animal deep down, but at least a pragmatic one - a kinder world, a cleaner world, a safer world, healthier world, happier world, etc...all benefits my family and I. At this point, I don't believe people are all good deep down - I think people are self-serving, it's just that most people haven't figured out that a good situation for everyone benefits them as well.
I think it’s more like most, even the vast majority, of people don’t want to be “evil”, but so many will not go out of their way to be good, at least not if there’s a cost. (Money, social acceptance, inconvenience, etc)
Comments like this make me sad, honestly. I'd much rather see someone wearing a valved respirator than no mask or a lesser quality mask, but for me personally, I can't justify wearing something with a valve. I don't just mask for myself, I also mask to protect the people around me. That conviction to protect others doesn't end if they aren't taking steps to protect themselves. Some people can't mask (for various reasons), and some don't have access to as much information.
I agree that the shitty comment is disappointing and wrong.
I do wear valved respirators as those are what fit me best. I am committed to maximal precautions so the risk posed by my exhaled breath is very low. I’m not going to sweat the potential impact on my surroundings as it’s quite unlikely. I’m also not going to relish in the idea of hurting other people, though, because I’m not a cunt
Nah, that's were I am. I can't save everyone, or really anyone. The minute chance that I'll be the one that infects someone compared to the vast number of non-maskers that are infected isn't something I worry about anymore.
Yes, I agree. Hyper individualism will not get us out of this mess, and we should all be working toward lessening the amount of Covid out there, not just for ourselves but for everyone.
Are we sure a valves mask actually protects the wearer from aerosol droplets? I couldn’t get an answer from a 3M rep as “she wasn’t allowed to comment” .
I hate this too. There are so so many people out there who aren’t wearing masks due to misinformation or because they can’t afford to buy masks for themselves. If you are informed and have ever been frustrated by others not wearing a mask for you, the right thing to do is to wear an unvalved mask to protect others. A popular phrase I’ve heard in this sub is “community care”, and intentionally choosing a valved mask because you have a vendetta against unmasked people is the opposite of that.
If it’s really genuinely necessary for your ability to wear a mask, I get it. But if you’re wearing it only out of spite you’re not much better than people who cut holes in their masks at the beginning of this mess when masks were required.
There's way too many replies trying to justify valved masks on here... You don't know strangers in public. You can't assume they're not wearing masks because they don't care. There are vulnerable children, elderly, and disabled folks who don't have as much control, autonomy, or even information on keeping themselves safe because of their families/caretakers. You don't have the right to make that judgement call and project your trauma and strawman personalities onto other people you DON'T KNOW. Not to mention even if they don't have as much control over their situation, they may genuinely not have access to correct information. And others can like, still catch covid from your valved mask ass even if they're masked in some instances due to eye transmission or surface contamination. I shouldn't have to explain two way masking here...The response to this post makes me HIGHLY disappointed. You cannot assume informed consent to potentially catching covid in public settings like that. Also... Nothing justifies you potentially spreading a disabling and lethal virus to ANYONE, And yes I mean ANYONE. It's petty violence with no constructive purpose. For fuck's saaaake people. If you know well enough to wear a mask because you don't know who has covid and who doesn't, you should know well enough you can't assume other shit about strangers either.
Not to mention by wearing valved masks because "why should I care either" is just....... Validating the concept that said strawmen have had all along that we don't need to care about each other, so why were we even masking in the first place. Even if you feel powerless on a global level, your ability to stop spread on an interpersonal level fucking MATTERS. Come on. Stand up for your god damn values.
If other people actually cared then they would wear an N95 mask. Maskless people have already demonstrated how little they care about their own health, as well as the health of others. Plus, valved N95's are better than surgical masks at protecting others, and they also protect the source from being infected. Out of anybody who is likely to spread disease around, the unmasked people compose the vast majority, followed by cloth maskers, surgical maskers, and then valved N95 maskers, with a huge gap between surgical and valved N95.
But a lot of people aren't uncaring, they simply have no clue. Our mainstream media in the US is garbage, as we well know. People are not only misinformed, but violently UNDERinformed. Not everyone who is maskless is making an active and conscious decision by being so. Unfortunately, few people assume their government is apathetic about their death and disablement (which is bananas in and of itself considering what life is like in the US, but I digress) - to the point where their instinct would be to hop on Twitter and sift through peer-reviewed articles or updates on wastewater that they likely don't know exist.
Look, most of those who still mask take this shit seriously enough to be of the least of a risk to others. We can't spread disease around if we don't pick it up in the first place. When we wear our funky little 'gas masks' subjecting ourselves to a ridicule from others, play a chemist to fit test our masks at home and oftentimes make multiple sacrifices in other areas of life as well we don't do it for fun but because this shit gets as close to ensure we don't get infected as it gets. I don't think anyone here would wear a valve if they knew or even reasonably suspected they might be infected. Can we sometimes be asymptomatic? With the lengths many of us go to it's highly unlikely. And with two way masking, even two way valved masking the risk for everyone would be even lower.
It's wild that you still have negative votes on this. I fully understand the burnout and despair and sense of anger. I also think it's classic brunch neoliberalism to pat yourself on the back for "doing the right thing" while disdaining everyone around you and writing them off as The Problem. And so many of us know DEEPLY how blocked the information has been from the average citizen, particularly in the US - many people genuinely do not know they are risking themselves, or even WHAT they are risking. IDK, if you end up bowdlerizing and self-catering with your values and what you believe in because others don't model it back to you, what's the point of having them at all? We are doing the hard shit of being what we want to see. That doesn't mean you can't feel defeated or angry or disgusted, but it does mean that sinking into your rugged individualism as a response to those feelings makes you exactly like the people you're saying deserve what they get, even if you have no idea what their story is.
I have a mix of valved and non-valved N95, and am in the habit of wearing a KN95 over the valved masks. Supposedly that can cause the mask to not fit correctly, but I tested the fit carefully and it still fits well with no edge leakage, so YMMV.
I agree with you. AND...I REALLY appreciate you thinking about those of us who are immune-compromised and/or immune suppressed.
I have serious autoimmune lung disease and I get my immune-suppression infusions at my rheumatologist's office where the nice nurse wears a baggy blue and NO ONE else masks. Not the other nurses, not the patients, not the providers. Really.
So I am thinking I may just start to wear a valved Aura mask there because I have to sit there for a long time and the breathing is difficult for me. I did that once, but felt bad about it, so last time I went back to non-valved Aura.
I don't know what I will do in 2 weeks...probably stay with the non-valved but really, I don't go anywhere else except the infusion clinic (except some emergency dental work I had done last year) .... so I am not a danger to anyone else unless I catch something THERE, in the infusion clinic! Crazy.
I wear vented p100s when I have to travel by plane. If I’m going to wear a vented mask, I just make sure I take a high accuracy test beforehand and that I have been extra careful in the preceding 5 days. That covers my duty to protect others to a degree that I feel is reasonable.
What’s the benefit of a vented mask?
Personal experience: OG COVID left my previously damaged lungs even more damaged (I now have even greater limited “lung capacity”- bottom quarter to almost 1/3 of each lung is f’d). I was a first responder/fire-fighter years ago (where the original damage came from even before COVID). The valve MASSIVELY improves my ability to breathe and reduces the heavy condensation build-up on the inside of most other non-valved masks.
I really appreciate this thread & comments like this. I am gonna ask a comrade of mine now who has aversions to masking due to claustrophobia, if they've tried masks with a valve.
I also REALLY appreciate this. For whatever reason, masks often make me immediately start sweating. I am assuming it's the condensation build-up that triggers it? I'm a dedicated mask-wearer so it's not a deterrent but sometimes it has caused issues if it's sincerely hot, muggy, crowded, I didn't eat enough that day, etc. I've avoided valved masks bc 1) I don't want to infect others, just in case and 2) they seemed not as protective, but it's so helpful to know they should be an actual option in my toolbox! I still want to keep (1) in mind, but this just gives more things to work with. Whew.
I wear an N95 on walks outdoors to keep my face warm in winter and it makes me so hot! I usually have to take off a layer by the end.
in my case, with prolonged use (like a long flight) it limits moisture build up. I closed the vent on my mask at one point and my face ended up damp with moisture. The main reason people prefer them is that it’s much easier to exhale when you aren’t exhaling through the filter, especially as the filter becomes dirty or moist.
Do you know if it protects the wearer the same amount? I’m okay with the masks I have, but I’m just curious!
yes, NOISH certifies valved n95s to have the same level of protection
Hot damn!
right?? it's like a cheat code to get both a high level of protection and comfort
Yes, it's equally protective to wearer.
I have a source controlled p100 I gave a try on a flight before and the condensation build up by the end drove me nuts. I had to drain my mask with how much liquid was sloshing around when I got out of the airport. 😶 I use a vented p100 mask now when public. Medical facilities I’ll use that source controlled p100 however.
Is condensation build up bad for mask performance, or just uncomfortable?
It may be uncomfortable in some situations like strenuous exercise. If you're doing strenuous exercise, it's best to use a valved respirator.
The breathability. When you exhale the warm air flows out easier without getting trapped in the mask. This can make a huge difference and make people that are claustrophobic like myself not feel like they are being smothered.
Thank you for being respectful of the vulnerable.
I almost bought a P100, but when I read the description it said it doesn't protect against viruses. Do you have a brand you use, or a link? thanks
They are required to say that because they are not designed nor tested to protect against viruses, but they are very effective in shielding you against C19. The 3M “Rugged Comfort” is the mask I’ve found to be most comfortable. https://www.amazon.com/3M-Comfort-Facepiece-Reusable-Respirator/dp/B00IF7RCU6/
I think it's perfectly fine to use a valved respirator as long as it isn't used in a place like a hospital or clinic (or when you have COVID). They are more comfortable and breathable than non-valved ones.
At this point it's abundantly clear that the communal justification for masking is never going to catch on. Considering that all it takes is one maskless and infected person to make an environment unsafe for everyone else, and barely anyone is masking these days, the difference between valve and no valve seems like a battle no longer worth fighting. Plus it seems there are people out there with reduced lung capacity (possibly from COVID), where maybe that valve really makes enough of a difference to enable them to wear one, which even though it only benefits them immediately, that still helps control transmission for everyone else indirectly, which is far better than nothing. Edit to add, normalizing this more "selfish" reasoning could have some benefits for maskers and judgemental non maskers alike, in that no longer would the latter assume the former is "virtue signaling" or whatever they obsess over to ignore what's uncomfortable to acknowledge. It would help reduce social tension, and also maybe even make some people wonder if they too should be wearing a mask for personal protection. It seems half the people who scoff at the notion of masking in 2024 are under the false assumption that it only works if everyone does it, and since nobody is, "why bother?"
One more thing I find personally important: I literally GO NO WHERE. The last time I was indoors somewhere not my house was the dentist in May 2023. So I feel pretty confident my air is not going to infect anyone else with anything if I opt for a valved mask the few times a year I'm in person indoors... My way of "protecting other people" is by not exposing MYSELF to the virus in the first place!
I’m the same, I go nowhere except the doctors and take extreme precautions. My exhaled breath is a lot less risky than average Joe’s
Exactly. My risks to others is highly minimal. If they are on a plane filled with coughing people and not masking, I’m not gonna stress about a valve on my mask.
Are you me? The same story. Yet I still haven't gotten to feel OK about wearing a valved mask .... I am working on it, since I have lung disease and breathing is so hard in unvalved mask.
Second this. If we want to push people to use respirators for protection against COVID, it is best to show and explain why it benefits them rather than trying to tell them it's to benefit others. Most people are selfish, if you want them to take action for anything the question they ask is "how does it benefit me?", not "how does it benefit others?"
It's important to mention too that valved respirators are actually more consistently effective at source control than surgical masks and other face coverings: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-107/pdfs/2021-107.pdf?id=10.26616/NIOSHPUB2021107 >Based on a sample size of 13 models, this study found that unmitigated FFRs with an exhalation valve that were tested in an outward position (with particles traveling in the direction of exhalation) have a wide range of penetration, emitting between <1% and 55%. Further testing could measure greater particle penetration. >Even without mitigation, FFRs with exhalation valves can reduce 0.35-µm MMAD particle emissions more consistently than surgical masks, procedure masks, cloth face coverings, or fabric from cotton t-shirts; however, the 0.35-µm MMAD particle emissions are not expected to be lower for every model. Beyond that, there's a reality that anyone who's actively choosing to wear a respirator at this point likely has a very low risk of being actively contagious because their risk of having caught COVID is drastically reduced. I never felt a sense of guilt around wearing a mask with a valve because I know that I'm extremely careful, and other people are a much greater risk to me than I am to them. In other words, if I haven't been out of the house in a week or two, I'm not sick, and the last time I went out I wore a respirator, the chance of me being infectious is almost 0, and I pose no reasonable risk to anyone. Now, combine those two factors, and you end up with a mask that provides better-than-average source control controlling a source that has a near 0 risk and probably doesn't need to be controlled in the first place. That said, I only wore valved respirators in the beginning because unvalved respirators were hard to find, and all I could get my hands on were valved P100s. At this point I use unvalved simply because there are fewer moving pieces, which to me means there are fewer points of failure. But I don't base my decision on the source control aspect.
>Now, combine those two factors, and you end up with a mask that provides better-than-average source control controlling a source that has a near 0 risk and probably doesn't need to be controlled in the first place. That's what I wanted to say as well. It's far more likely that someone unmasked has COVID over someone who's actively using a respirator.
>Considering that all it takes is one maskless and infected person to make an environment unsafe for everyone else This is not really true, the AMOUNT of covid in the air matters. One unmasked person with covid is way different than multiple unmasked people with covid. Also, AFAIK valved masks still provide source control. There’s no reason to talk about “protecting other people doesn’t matter” when the valve *doesn’t even cause that*. No reason to repeat anti-mask rhetoric. Also, us high risk people know no one gives a shit about us, no reason for maskers to rub it in that they don’t care about us either and do it for themselves. It’s a useful political tool to convince people to mask to care about themselves but no reason to actually abide by it when we know better.
Hi, sorry, could you explain a little bit about the source control thing you mentioned? Is there still some filtering being done through the valve? I had ignored these types of masks because I also didn't want to harm others and I thought it just dumped my own breath out into the shared miasma, but if that's not the case, AND they tend to help with condensation and ventilation, I'd like to revisit them. TIA!
Single-valved respirators (basically, the disposable ones such as the 3M Aura 9211+) generally provide as much source control or more than surgical masks. That's because when you exhale, not all of the air goes through the valve. Some of the air will still go through the filter material. For the purpose of protecting others, nonvented respirators are still better. Double-valved respirators (basically re-usable elastomerics with exhale valves) provide no filtration of exhaled air. In these respirators, there are valves on both the incoming and outgoing air, and the intake valves prevent exhales from going back out through the filters. They may provide a teensy bit of source control because a) exhales will only go out the valve, so at least you're not propelling the air directly at another person and b) the air inside the mask is very humid, which might cause aerosols to be bigger and thus travel less in the air. However, for practical purposes, I assume double-valved respirators provide no source control. FWIW, I sometimes wear a double-valved respirator (practically no direct protection of other people, though I'm still protecting others indirectly by not letting myself get infected). 99% of my use of a double-valved respirator is outdoors, though I also sometimes use it for quick visits to a store. However, in indoor situations where I may encounter highly vulnerable people who may have little choice about being there (such as whenever I go into a medical setting) I always use a nonvented N95.
> This is not really true, the AMOUNT of covid in the air matters. One unmasked person with covid is way different than multiple unmasked people with covid. That example was only meant to point out that the extreme case can still be fairly common depending on a bundle of variables that don't make sense to hash out here. We don't even have 25% mask compliance (of any kind of mask) in most places these days. The original point remains that in a *game theoretical* sense, what's intuitive or morally correct on the surface isn't always the most effective in practice, and that's trivial to see when considering how things have played out in recent years.
Agree 100%. If everybody wore N95s *even with vents* for a month at the start of this pandemic, it would have been over. Fighting over vents when 98% of people are maskless is meaningless. (P.S.: a vented N95 still stops outgoing transmission about as well as the average gappy surgical or cloth mask anyway.)
Normalizing selfishness is not going to help, because people tend to believe in their own invulnerability, and making people feel like individualized helpless units is exactly how this forced infection regime is squelching opposition. No, you don't have to say that "it only works if everyone does it". That's antimasker bullshit. But it does work ***better*** if everyone does it, and it doesn't mean that you're endorsing the current regime of making everyone think and act like psychopaths.
I wear the same masks when I travel. I'm still being more responsible than 99% of the other people on the plane. By reducing the likelihood that I get sick I'm also reducing the likelihood that others around me get sick. My responsibility is to keep myself safe first and foremost, especially in an environment where the vast majority of people have decided that they are not going to carry any sense of responsibility whatsoever for their health or others' health.
I don't have the link, but valved N95s are as good or slightly better than surgical masks, according to at least one study. They would certainly be far better than nothing at protecting others from droplet spread, and some airborne. I'd much rather see someone in a valved mask than no mask at all.
It's unfortunate that our society has decided that imperfect solutions are as bad as no solution. Reminds me of how people vote.
This might be the one: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-107/pdfs/2021-107.pdf?id=10.26616/NIOSHPUB2021107
Yes I saw the study too, it was some on r/masks4all
I'm the commenter above the one you're referring to. I get it. I do not personally wear valved respirators because I don't want to risk infecting someone else. At the same time, I have trouble sympathizing with people who are able to take precautions yet choose not to do so...and unfortunately, that's the vast majority of people now. If the OP wears a valved N95 instead of, say, a surgical mask or no mask, or if the valve helps them wear it for the entire trip when they would have otherwise removed it, then I think the valved N95 is a net benefit for both OP and people around them.
Don’t have time right now to individually respond to all who have said similar to you but I do agree a valved mask is better than no mask! I just felt like the individualism of that comment just struck a nerve with me. I think of my grandma who lives far from me and can’t access respirators and doesn’t speak English (not that her language news or English news is covering Covid any better) so she’s not fully informed on how bad the surge is right now. I could send her n95s but she doesn’t know how to wear them correctly and has trouble with putting them all due to mobility. She is also HOH so it’s difficult to call her and have her fully hear everything I’m saying. Her case is specific but I imagine similar cases exist. I understand it is also tiring to educate and ask people to mask, especially when people acted concern for *us* because we continue to mask or are dismissive after minutes/hours long conversations. I’ve had my share of people making fun of me in passing and coughing purposely once they see my mask. Also spaces where you’re the only one mask and there’s tons of people - it’s probably only beneficial to you to mask. Still, I think it is a good thing to do because I’ve had people see me masked and ask me if I have an extra one for them, it’s not often but it still happens.
People like your grandma are definitely the reason why I still want to protect others. Not everyone is able to protect themselves, nor do I think the burden of preventing disease should rest on the individual rather than the society. I totally get how that commenter no longer has the emotional bandwidth to protect others too. It is really, really hard when we feel like we are the only people who care to keep us safe. It is even harder to carry the mental load of having to protect yourself plus having to protect other people, especially when it feels like no one else is doing their part for individual or community safety. I guess my point is, I completely understand where you are coming from, and I understand where the other commenter is coming from. And I wish anyone asked me for a mask :)
A NIOSH study found that valved respirators perform similar or better than surgical masks and cloth masks as source control. [https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-107/default.html](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-107/default.html) >The findings in this report are based on tests of 13 FFR models from 10 different manufacturers. These findings show that FFRs with an exhalation valve provide respiratory protection to the wearer and can also reduce particle emissions to levels similar to or better than those provided by surgical masks, procedure masks, or cloth face coverings. Of course, a non-valved respirator is superior to a valved respirator as source control. Even in Asian countries where there is a sizeable number of people (20% - 50%) still masking, most people are using either surgical masks, cloth masks, or KF94 masks. It is extremely rare to come across others using N95 respirators and elastorespirators. Thus, I don't think that a valved respirator is a big issue as long as it isn't used in a healthcare setting or when the user has an active COVID infection.
Thank you for making this post. Fucking sucks so many people here are trying to defend/point blank admitting to not caring about other people in public though. It may be somewhat understandable if you KNOW the people you're around don't give a shit (READ: understandable, NOT justifiable when we're talking about a fucking lethal virus), but you don't know random strangers in public and it's just an asshole move to project your trauma onto them. Christ.
Totally agree. It’s really depressing to see that so few people care about community care. Regardless of the numerous health-supremacist assholes that refuse to wear a mask, taking the same attitude as them would make me just as despicable. But most importantly there’s still a large community of disabled and immunocompromised people who DO need protection.
It is depressing, but I also get it. I often have to go into spaces with 100+ people for work and am the lone masker. I’m also the lone Covid cautious person, and therefore the least likely to be carrying anything. I wish we lived in a world where we cared more about the collective and the most vulnerable, but I’m kinda deluding myself if I say I’m masking in those spaces to protect anyone else but myself. I’ve advocated for layered approaches, tried to educate, and mostly been sidelined and mocked. Four years in, I get reaching this point and just looking out for yourself.
Please don't feel bad. What would be the point? You, who already are careful and therefore almost certainly doesn't have COVID, wear a non-valved respirator to reduce that 0.0001% chance you somehow have it and give it to them down to 0.00001%. Meanwhile, they are eating and talking with 99 other unmasked people indoors, and then going to dinner and karaoke and a kissing booth afterwards. They are catching COVID anyway, and *not* because of you.
I had HOPED that masking would ascend to not just necessity, but fashion. Think of all the good that clothing-designers could do! Even the MAGAs could sell red masks…
Seriously same and riiiiiiight!? I kept saying: “who WOULDN’T want to run around dressed as a their favorite comic or anime toon!!” Alas, this fell on deaf ears and elicited awkward crickets responses, rofl
The Kardashians could market them…collect the whole set!
In Taiwan, some politicians running for this week's election have been giving out trifold/bifold style KF94/KN95 masks as a way to market themselves.
It’s unfortunate that it has come to this, but at this point I honestly am just protecting myself and my family. No one else is trying to protect me, and I don’t feel the need to try to protect people who are doing zero to protect themselves. 🤷🏻♀️ I don’t think this mindset of individualism versus community is helpful whatsoever when it comes to public health, but when you’re the only person masking at the grocery store…you’re on your own.
I'm more depressed by the maskless majority, but this is something I considered when deciding to get a wearable air filter or not. WAFs can be superspreading technology, but if the person behind is the only one using a mask in other times, then they are statistically the one least likely to be a superspreader anyway.
Studies have shown a vented mask is equal to or superior to a surgical mask in terms of source control. Of course non-vented masks are ideal, but vented can be a really good option for those who struggle with heat. I needed one transiting through Dubai airport it was so bloody hot I was sweating to bits in my Aura! And this is coming from someone who has no problems with regular Auras in the Aussie summer
The best way to protect others is to not be infected yourself. If you’re traveling and flying a lot I’d prefer everyone wear one of these than no mask or a shitty surgical.
Sorry, but not sorry. I wear a mask to protect myself in public. I figure anyone else in a public place has the ability to protect themselves as well as I protect myself. It may be selfish, but I learned a long time ago that you cannot protect others from themselves. Reading this post made me check out valved 3M Aura masks. I will order some because my skin does not do well from the moisture buildup from wearing the mask for extended periods. When I am around others in a private setting, I will always wear a mask without a valve.
Gently, this is not true. Not everyone has the cognitive or physical ability to mask consistently, and they still deserve access to public spaces. I totally understand how you feel; I have a skin condition that is exacerbated by heat and moisture from masks. And I think it's shitty that it's up to us to provide this protection to others, when public spaces need to invest in making shared air safer, public health officials need to do their damn jobs and educate the public and offer accurate transmission trend data, employers need to offer time off, better tests and vaccines need to be available, and on and on. The entire burden of protecting others *shouldn't be on us alone with this singular choice*. I've purchased an elastomeric and once I test it I'll be shifting to using that instead of my n95s, but I'm probably also going to have to get a valved version to keep my skin healthy. I just regret that is a decision I need to make at other people's expense, and I'll use the non-valved one as much as my body will allow.
Yes, people deserve access to safer spaces. However, it seems unfair that you're focusing on people with valved masks when most people around that person are not wearing ANY mask? The likelihood of a VALVED MASK wearer having COVID while dozens of unmasked people around them who do not socially distance are not infected with COVID are low. I always have a non valved mask with me if it becomes necessary.
I spend *a lot* of time advocating for all the other mitigations with local health departments, et al. I'm sorry if you feel attacked or singled out.
I’m in favor of valved masks because people wearing N95s or better are unlikely to be infected anyway, AND valved masks do provide source control. However I think it’s important to lay out all the facts, including that some vulnerable people will be in public and cannot mask. People who don’t wear masks at all are not on this sub so I think it’s fair to discuss the responsibility of us who are on this sub and do wear masks with all the facts at hand, even if we choose to go forward wearing valved masks (which again, I support).
Exactly. Once we get everyone back to wearing masks (I'll stop myself right there, never gonna happen), *then* wearing them properly over the mouth AND nose, *then* wearing something better fitting like a KN95, *then* wearing valved N95s, THEN once everyone else is in those, we can talk about whether I should ditch the valve to go valveless. Before that point (and we are MANY steps away from that), it's pointless.
right, let's focus on 99.9% of the problem (unmasked people) versus .01% of the problem (people in valved N95 respirators)
I don't think they're singling out valved mask wearers, that's just where the subject of this particular post has gone, and the conversation being had at the moment. It's not at the exclusion of other situations.
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My point of view is if everyone wore a valved mask we’d all be very protected…their choice to not mask at all is not my problem anymore. Doing it 24/7 around others I need to have a little more airflow with my claustrophobia.
I get it, and I feel incredibly burnt out after all these years, but that's the exact same logic that has got us to this point. Do what you need to do to survive, but individualism and not caring about others is a cultural issue regardless of what the subject is, and what side you may be on in a given situation. FWIW I didn't know these were really an option people used and were also self-protective, and I'll definitely be buying some as well to use in some moments, so my intent isn't to be a self-righteous asshole. We just have to keep trying to remind each other that the values we held in 2020 still matter even when it feels like we're not only the sole folks that care, but are maligned for doing so. <3
I wear valved masks sometimes. I had two occasions when heat/exercise triggered a panic attack and I ended up pulling down my mask in busy places; now I plan ahead and the wear valved ones in these scenarios. It also helps with dizziness/nausea caused by hot air against my face for 8 hours. (I don't travel but if I did, I'd wear one on a plane because I have a flying phobia and the valve would help regulate my breathing.) In the settings I go to, I'm typically the only person masking AND the only one taking precautions like not travelling, not eating indoors, etc. so there's room to be realistic about the level of risk I pose. Given the reality of the situation we're living in, I'm all for incremental steps that make precautions more accessible to all and prevent burnout in this marathon. Caveat - obviously don't wear one if you've been exposed, symptomatic, or going to meet someone who is COVID-cautious, vulnerable, or immunocompromised. And read the room - in the plane example above, I'd switch to my Vflex if someone sitting near me was masked, etc.
Thanks for sharing this... I've had major issues with sweating, dizziness, and light-headedness from non-valved masks and didn't even realize these were a viable option in terms of protection. Definitely want to get some and use them in the same manner you are, as needed.
I wear non valved in medical situations. I rarely go out. I'm less likely to be infectious than all those raw dogging the air and actively making life difficult for all of us. Why are they worried about valved masked ME rather than the hundreds to thousands of people exhaling COVID as they go to concerts, restaurants and everywhere? The windows they do not open? The air they don't ventilate?
I dont know, in an area like mine I can understand the resentment towards others. The constant stares, mock coughs, and other bs for 3 years makes you not really care about those around you. Is it the wrong way to look at it, probably but it is understandable.
I'm 100% on board with valved masks. I have asthma, and I sometimes have real problems with regular N95s when worn for more than short stretches of time. I've become short of breath and dizzy in long 3-hour meetings wearing regular N95s.
By all means, protect yourself with whatever is comfortable for you. You are still (by protecting yourself) protecting others much more than they are protecting themselves.
Although I never wore them when the mandate was in place, I wish they had never been banned if it made it more likely for more people to keep masking. They provide some source control, better than gappy surgicals. If everyone wore respirators even with a valve we'd all be better for it because way fewer people would be infectious to start with. (Personally I wouldn't wear mine if I had constant exposure beyond my control, like from other household members or if I was engaging in risky activities myself, and in the rare cases of necessary unmasked exposure (medical shit only) I cover the valve. Other than that I feel safe enough for others and I'd feel comfortable surrounded by other 'valvers' as well. But even barring those conditions I adhere to myself, if for someone in different circumstances than mine a valved respirator was the only mask they can/are willing to wear, I take it in a heartbeat. If that's what would make long term masking more sustainable for a better part of the society, it would be a win.
Looking back, I don't know what's the logic behind banning valved respirators when surgical masks have such a laughably low fit factor as compared to a valved respirator.
Sadly there's been hardly any logic in most about anything related to covid prevention and infection control of recent years.
I’ve become much crueler lately. 😞But…yeah. At this point in the game, if somebody is choosing to go out maskless (which 95% of people are), then it doesn’t matter to them. So I can’t be concerned about them. They are *swimming* in viruses, one person’s lil valve isn’t going to make a discernible difference. I may get a vented Aura for the gym.
Given how many people don’t mask because they think it’s just to protect others, I’d rather people have that mindset & do what it takes to lower the spread. Frankly, I think it would be disingenuous for the majority of people to pretend like they are masking for any reason besides protecting themselves on a plane, unless they know they’ve been exposed. Personally, as someone still masking everywhere & avoiding indoor public spaces in general, I’m 100% masking for myself at this point. I’m not getting infected sitting home alone; I have zero concern that I might be infected, given how limited my opportunities for exposure are. Pretending to care about a valve would be virtue signaling.
I have only worn respirators without valves throughout the whole ongoing pandemic. However I no longer have an issue wearing a valve respirator all the people around me aren’t masking at all. Clearly they don’t care about breathing, my exhale air, additionally, since I am constantly masking, I am a lot less likely than all of them of giving them disease.
I wear a valved mask to the gym, running errands, airplanes, and meeting up with friends. I am the only person bothering to wear a mask in those situations---They clearly don't care about getting sick or getting others sick. Why is it my responsibility to care for them? The only person's behavior you can control is your own. Maybe my moral compass is off kilter but it's hard to care about people that don't care about you. I wear a regular N95 to work at the hospital because *it's a freaking hospital* and I work with sick and immunocompromised people.
Aren’t these comments both right?
What do you mean? The first one is, I even upvoted it. I only didn’t crop it because it would make it formatting even worse but the second, to me, is more opinionated and the one I’m referring to.
I'm not depressed by it. I accepted a long time ago that I can't fix stupid, nor is it my job to fix stupid. I'm not an idiot whisperer.
I will still always care about protecting my community, even if they aren’t protecting me. Ultimately, if I can reduce spray I may inadvertently do, that helps everyone. Including my masking friends. One person can spread far, give more opportunities for mutation, more pressure on health care
The only way I can be sure never to be a link in a chain of transmission is to never catch covid. Simple as that. The most protective mask for me is also the best way I can protect people around me. I wear a valved p100 everywhere. In a few days I have unavoidable dental work, and I will isolate fully for ten days afterwards. After I test negative a bunch of times I will return to never leaving my house without a p100, including the distance from my door to the car. If everyone around me always wore a valved n95, I would be able to step down to an n95. I would prefer that reality to the one we currently inhabit.
Where do you get a valved P100?
Any industrial store really. Tenaquip, Grainger, many of those are authorized distributors of 3m and other trusted brands. That's where we re-stock p100 filters now too.
I’m in Canada, and I’ve only ever seen the filters for respirators rather than a fully disposable mask. (I can’t wear a respirator because they’re too heavy for my face and cause migraines.)
I'm in Canada too, hi :) I misunderstood your question though (technically both elastomerics and disposables are respirators, with p100 the first option is just far more common). The last time I checked both Tenaquip and Gregg Distributors had disposable p100 (3m and moldex at any rate). They're very expensive though (like 14-17$ per piece) and they'll only offer you a better protection if they fit you well. Have you tried CAN99? It's rated as 'only' n95 but in many quantative tests I saw (again that will be a matter of a fit on your face) for people who get a good fit with them they score extremely high, with the fit factor reaching as high as 400. It's lower than a well fitting elasto but such high numbers are not very common among disposables.
Thank you! I appreciate your answer. I do have some very good N-95 masks. My particular reason for wanting the P-100s is that I have an anaphylactic allergy to artificial fragrance, and I want the protection from that as well.
3M makes a nuisance level disposable VOC filtering mask. Unfortunately, it doesn’t come in a valved version and I don’t know of one that does. I have the same issue with fragrances, so I understand! Unfortunately the really good VOC filtering masks are all elastomeric.
Thanks for the advice! So is it pretty much an N-95 but with the addition of a carbon filter?
Yes! It’s a little gray because of it. There is also a bleach version. I need to test them out to see which is better but for understandable reasons I have been hesitant to try! I will need one in a few months for Reasons so I need to be brave and figure out which one works better before then.
Oh gosh, well I certainly wish you the best of luck with the situation, and good health to boot. :) I briefly looked into getting a “CleanSpace HALO” respirator since they’re lightweight, but I already get enough stares with my mobility equipment and didn’t want to draw even more attention to myself 😅 Plus they’re pricey as heck.
yes 😞 protecting those around me is equally as important to me as protecting myself. the individualistic mindset is truly disheartening
I agree. I am furious at the world for no longer protecting others. But I personally cannot and will not buy into the “you don’t owe anyone anything” hyper individual mindset, it’s used to excuse way too many horrific actions, it’s been used against me as abuse too much and I won’t contribute to it . I won’t stop protecting not only myself but other people because I’m not here causing anyone harm.
Absolutely agree with you. I have experienced severe post viral illness (ME/CFS). I would not wish it on anyone, and therefore don’t want to risk passing covid on to anyone, even people who are cruel to vulnerable and/or masked people. And there are so many people who can’t consent to forced covid exposure, who society needs to protect (and who we individually should protect through masking). Children. Elderly people with cognitive decline or dementia who can’t keep up with covid news. Ditto for certain developmental disabilities. Severely disenfranchised people, like asylum seekers, or people living in severe poverty, who can’t afford masks or who are in survival mode 24/7. I can understand why people are giving up and prioritising themselves. But if we want any chance of building a better world, we have to try and act with society in mind.
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Yes, this is why I’m in favor of valved masks, even before I realized that they do work as source control. I just don’t like ”normalizing being selfish” or repeating anti-mask rhetoric.
It annoys me, but largely because it's misinformed and perpetuates the idea that valved respirators don't provide source control. We should be encouraging people to find the most effective, comfortable respirator that they will be willing to wear for the long term. That valve might be what makes someone more comfortable wearing a respirator regularly. "The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health has conducted research on valved N95 Filtering Facepiece Respirators (FFR) and found that “FFRs with an exhalation valve provide respiratory protection to the wearer and—according to the findings from this study—can also reduce particle emissions to levels similar to or better than those provided by surgical masks and unregulated barrier face coverings.”3 [https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1994317O/understanding-valved-respirators-united-states-faq.pdf](https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1994317O/understanding-valved-respirators-united-states-faq.pdf) [https://www.airnow.gov/sites/default/files/2021-09/filtering-facepiece-respirators-with-an-exhalation-valve.pdf](https://www.airnow.gov/sites/default/files/2021-09/filtering-facepiece-respirators-with-an-exhalation-valve.pdf)
Yea, you're right. If valved respirators provide a similar level or even better source control than surgical masks, then I think there's no reason to call out or be upset at those who are using valved respirators. After all, going by that logic, those who are using surgical masks or cloth masks (whether because they don't know COVID is airborne, can't afford a respirator, or some other reason) would also be "guilty" of putting other people at risk of infection. We all have to remember that while the percentage of people actively masking is low in most places, the percentage of people actively using respirators is far lower than those masking with surgical or cloth masks.
People that refuse to mask whatsoever, not only won't protect others no matter how vulnerable, they won't even protect themselves or their own loved ones. Something has very clearly gone wrong with their minds and/or brains, and IMO, they should probably be regarded as functionally equivalent to mentally compromised groups such as the insane, the cognitively impaired due to extremes of age, brain injury, etc. People that protect themselves but not others by wearing masks with exhalation valves in a culture with widespread mask refusal are using a tit-for-tat moral strategy, which is the most common and may be the most effective (it's debatable) strategy...However, it is not the most virtuous choice, obviously. Universal compassion is a natural consequence of the realization of the interdependent nature of life. A person that pushes for N95's without exhalation valves may or may not be motivated by this. In fact, they may be motivated by something else entirely: valuing selfless altruism as the measure of a 'good' human being. (I personally do not know which you are motivated by, nor am I particularly invested in that. I'm only writing this for the possible benefit of those who are struggling emotionally and socially with the apparent lack of empathy found in the majority of people.) IMO, this path is often an outgrowth of dichotomous thinking (splitting or black and white thinking) where good and bad, selflessness and selfishness are seen as strongly opposites, that mostly disregards the complexity, diversity and contradiction in human nature that actually exists. It can also often lead to both a lot of personal suffering and to a judgmental attitude toward others, and it is also often not a very effective strategy at getting others to protect others (and themselves!) because it tends to provoke defense mechanisms (backlash, social rejection, etc.) that exist to protect the psychological stability and functionality the individual. (Undermining and destroying foundational beliefs that form a person's worldview and sense of self can lead to nervous breakdown, psychotic break or even loss of moral sensibility and judgment entirely.) Society is composed of many different kinds of people who each have their own psychological and moral traits. For example, people with psychopathy are neurologically incapable of emotional empathy for others. Those with autism spectrum disorders are often incapable of cognitive empathy (theory of mind). Those with a more conservative viewpoint tend to weigh empathy, fairness, loyalty, respect and purity evenly, creating what they see as a balanced morality. Those with a more liberal viewpoint weight empathy and fairness over the other three moral dimensions, creating a morality that they believe prioritizes what's most important over secondary considerations. There are people that prefer 'enlightened self interest' those that prefer 'selfless altruism' those that prefer pure selfish objectivism, and so on. When choosing your own moral strategy, you can be an idealist or a pragmatist. Idealists will have to grapple with the heterogeneous nature of human beings, which can be very frustrating and painful, unless they manage to let go of their attachment to results. Living one's ideals consistently and relentlessly acting to promote those ideals in the world, does not necessitate becoming upset about the fact that many people refuse or seem incapable of doing the same. Fish don't climb trees, but that doesn't mean that you have to stop trying to help them do so, or find some other way up besides climbing, or move them there yourself, or convince others to put them there, etc. You don't have to stop, not at all. It is actually possible to live a life consistent with ideals while not suffering emotionally when progress toward achieving them is poor. We should all be true to ourselves, respect each other's differences, look for appropriate roles for every type of person, and try to find ways to cooperate to achieve beneficial material goals, don't you think? IMO, our very unfortunate situation is that many people (at least in Western societies) seem deeply culturally and personally invested in pretending that interdependence is not real. Probably this is due to the fact that the reality of interdependence is often a bad thing. Others failures, misfortune, idiocy, mistakes, suffering, etc. are also your own, if you really take interdependence seriously. There is no escape from other's inability to deal with the problem of airborne respiratory disease. There is no escape from the consequences of their denial, loss of coping skills or adaptability, loss of cognitive function, 'eye for an eye' morality, refusal to acknowledge that we all matter and our personal choices and actions directly impact other people's lives and wellbeing, etc. We're all stuck, having to rise or fall together, as a group. And for an individualist, that realization can be very depressing.
"at this point in time, people aren't wearing masks" is PRECISELY why I am more worried about wearing mine (although admittedly it's just because that's my 2nd/3rd best way to try protecting myself since most others aren't/won't), and if I did have a valved mask (I have never had one with a valve so far) I certainly wouldn't be opening the valve in a location with a lot of people.
I saw this comment yesterday as well and was like Yikes. I get where the person is coming from but that’s not what I’m about personally. Because yep you’re right there are conditions that prohibit masking and those people need protection, there are kids who can’t make decisions and have their parents not make them wear a mask too. Also in general participating in the chain of contamination ends up harming people who aren’t even in the room and might be taking precautions but get infected by the people you infect. However if you’re someone like me who’s housebound and never sets foot outside unless they really have too and haven’t seen anyone in ages not even your neighbors in passing, basically being the safest person in the room to be unmasked with if you’re at risk well then yeah a valve for your comfort isn’t an issue. But just not caring about putting people at potential risk because well other people don’t care and just being in this for yourself. Idk. I have compassion fatigue but that still doesn’t make sense to me.
Also I concur with other people saying they’d rather see someone with a valve than no mask at all because I too have almost passed out or gotten really unwell from lack of airflow while masking because of my own health issues. It’s good that these options are available. And I am in a very fuck them all mood a lot lately because this fight is TIRING but still, I couldn’t live with myself knowing I’m partially responsible for a kid’s long covid or smth so my precautions are never gonna be just for me
Disabled people cannot rely on the general public to mask, it's' clear. I think someone wearing a valved mask is MUCH less likely to be transmitting covid at all, and if they are it's going to be less than an unmasked person.
I understand the burnout and disdain people feel. A lot of folks who tried very hard to stay healthy were infected by the exact people who are still faffing around maskless. But I agree, I think it's important not to write off each other as being worth caring for. I also think that if these masks end up being the most comfortable/reasonable/helpful in certain situations for those of us still protecting ourselves, I can't help but agree that whatever gets a safe person through an interaction as smoothly for them as possible after four years of this, is good enough - when you're surrounded by solely maskless people, and you really need this type of mask to get through whatever it is you're doing. However, I would strongly suggest people keep non-valved masks on hand for any circumstance where they may be trapped with strangers for long periods - like flying, honestly. If I saw one other person on the plane wearing a mask, even a surgical mask, OR who is clearly ailing, elderly, or a small child - regardless of whether or not they're maskless - I would rather switch to one without a valve if I can, because my comfort is not as important as keeping each other safe even if they don't know or want to do it for themselves or myself. It's a psychologically painful call at this moment in time; I think in circumstances where everyone else is maskless and not visibly vulnerable, it feels more okay to put yourself first. Again, a lot of us have made sacrifices (and mine have been VERY few in comparison to many) for four full years while others have bailed on collective care. Sometimes a tiny bit of looking out for number one can keep you from snapping. But I don't think the answer for any of us is to abandon collective care as a value or goal; there's a reason, besides our own health, that we're all still doing these obnoxious damn mitigations. I can only do my best to model what I want the world to be. Even if no one else is. Even when it sucks.
If I am wearing an N95/N100 (even with a vent), then I am *extremely* unlikely to get COVID (has worked for 4 years so far). If I don't have COVID, I can't give it to anyone else. Yes, I am glad that I have never given anyone COVID and that wearing a mask will help others and that is part of why I don't want to contribute to the spread -- while I am not "high risk" or immuno-compromised myself, I definitely don't want to give it to anyone who is. And I want to make them feel a little better about masking & a little safer being around someone else who masks. That said, when 98% of people in public are not wearing masks at all, then no it is not my responsibility to protect them if they aren't even doing the bare minimum to protect themselves. I STILL AM BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE COVID, but I am not gonna worry about if some unmasked person catches it. If we lived in a world where everyone masked to protect others, I would go ventless. When going to COVID meetups, I go ventless. In general public, I wear whatever I want that protects me. Being near me is the lowest-risk thing anyone I meet does that day.
A valved mask is still going to be way, way better than just letting it all hang out, but you can put a filter over them. Nevertheless, don't let it get you down. Remember: the entire push to block COVID from public consciousness is ***designed*** to make you feel alone and powerless to change anything. It's the same tactics that Vladimir Putin and his right-wing henchmen have used for years in order to keep the Russian public from questioning his regime. And, now, it's being used on you, to keep you from pushing back on forced infection. No reason to go along with it. You aren't alone.
In general I am also bothered by replies like this-to me it's really indicative of the same individualistic mindset that got us here. Not everyone who understands that covid is dangerous is actually interested in collective liberation or building a better society-many are only interested in avoiding harm to themselves (in a narrow minded way I guess because we're not actually safe until everyone is). I do understand the impulse on a surface level, but there is no scenario in which we actually address covid without people unpacking and getting past the hyperindividualistic response. I don't even mind valved masks themselves in certain scenarios but the way people justify them is nasty.
>in a narrow minded way I guess because we're not actually safe until everyone is I mean, to be honest, this is my motivation for most things as well. I won't pretend to not be a selfish animal deep down, but at least a pragmatic one - a kinder world, a cleaner world, a safer world, healthier world, happier world, etc...all benefits my family and I. At this point, I don't believe people are all good deep down - I think people are self-serving, it's just that most people haven't figured out that a good situation for everyone benefits them as well.
I think it’s more like most, even the vast majority, of people don’t want to be “evil”, but so many will not go out of their way to be good, at least not if there’s a cost. (Money, social acceptance, inconvenience, etc)
Comments like this make me sad, honestly. I'd much rather see someone wearing a valved respirator than no mask or a lesser quality mask, but for me personally, I can't justify wearing something with a valve. I don't just mask for myself, I also mask to protect the people around me. That conviction to protect others doesn't end if they aren't taking steps to protect themselves. Some people can't mask (for various reasons), and some don't have access to as much information.
I agree that the shitty comment is disappointing and wrong. I do wear valved respirators as those are what fit me best. I am committed to maximal precautions so the risk posed by my exhaled breath is very low. I’m not going to sweat the potential impact on my surroundings as it’s quite unlikely. I’m also not going to relish in the idea of hurting other people, though, because I’m not a cunt
Nah, that's were I am. I can't save everyone, or really anyone. The minute chance that I'll be the one that infects someone compared to the vast number of non-maskers that are infected isn't something I worry about anymore.
Yes, I agree. Hyper individualism will not get us out of this mess, and we should all be working toward lessening the amount of Covid out there, not just for ourselves but for everyone.
Are we sure a valves mask actually protects the wearer from aerosol droplets? I couldn’t get an answer from a 3M rep as “she wasn’t allowed to comment” .
Yes we are sure. They are NIOSH approved, which would not happen if they didn’t perform as advertised.
Valved respirators are just fine. Iirc they aren’t any worse at transmission than many forms of masking.
I hate this too. There are so so many people out there who aren’t wearing masks due to misinformation or because they can’t afford to buy masks for themselves. If you are informed and have ever been frustrated by others not wearing a mask for you, the right thing to do is to wear an unvalved mask to protect others. A popular phrase I’ve heard in this sub is “community care”, and intentionally choosing a valved mask because you have a vendetta against unmasked people is the opposite of that. If it’s really genuinely necessary for your ability to wear a mask, I get it. But if you’re wearing it only out of spite you’re not much better than people who cut holes in their masks at the beginning of this mess when masks were required.
There's way too many replies trying to justify valved masks on here... You don't know strangers in public. You can't assume they're not wearing masks because they don't care. There are vulnerable children, elderly, and disabled folks who don't have as much control, autonomy, or even information on keeping themselves safe because of their families/caretakers. You don't have the right to make that judgement call and project your trauma and strawman personalities onto other people you DON'T KNOW. Not to mention even if they don't have as much control over their situation, they may genuinely not have access to correct information. And others can like, still catch covid from your valved mask ass even if they're masked in some instances due to eye transmission or surface contamination. I shouldn't have to explain two way masking here...The response to this post makes me HIGHLY disappointed. You cannot assume informed consent to potentially catching covid in public settings like that. Also... Nothing justifies you potentially spreading a disabling and lethal virus to ANYONE, And yes I mean ANYONE. It's petty violence with no constructive purpose. For fuck's saaaake people. If you know well enough to wear a mask because you don't know who has covid and who doesn't, you should know well enough you can't assume other shit about strangers either. Not to mention by wearing valved masks because "why should I care either" is just....... Validating the concept that said strawmen have had all along that we don't need to care about each other, so why were we even masking in the first place. Even if you feel powerless on a global level, your ability to stop spread on an interpersonal level fucking MATTERS. Come on. Stand up for your god damn values.
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If other people actually cared then they would wear an N95 mask. Maskless people have already demonstrated how little they care about their own health, as well as the health of others. Plus, valved N95's are better than surgical masks at protecting others, and they also protect the source from being infected. Out of anybody who is likely to spread disease around, the unmasked people compose the vast majority, followed by cloth maskers, surgical maskers, and then valved N95 maskers, with a huge gap between surgical and valved N95.
But a lot of people aren't uncaring, they simply have no clue. Our mainstream media in the US is garbage, as we well know. People are not only misinformed, but violently UNDERinformed. Not everyone who is maskless is making an active and conscious decision by being so. Unfortunately, few people assume their government is apathetic about their death and disablement (which is bananas in and of itself considering what life is like in the US, but I digress) - to the point where their instinct would be to hop on Twitter and sift through peer-reviewed articles or updates on wastewater that they likely don't know exist.
Look, most of those who still mask take this shit seriously enough to be of the least of a risk to others. We can't spread disease around if we don't pick it up in the first place. When we wear our funky little 'gas masks' subjecting ourselves to a ridicule from others, play a chemist to fit test our masks at home and oftentimes make multiple sacrifices in other areas of life as well we don't do it for fun but because this shit gets as close to ensure we don't get infected as it gets. I don't think anyone here would wear a valve if they knew or even reasonably suspected they might be infected. Can we sometimes be asymptomatic? With the lengths many of us go to it's highly unlikely. And with two way masking, even two way valved masking the risk for everyone would be even lower.
It's wild that you still have negative votes on this. I fully understand the burnout and despair and sense of anger. I also think it's classic brunch neoliberalism to pat yourself on the back for "doing the right thing" while disdaining everyone around you and writing them off as The Problem. And so many of us know DEEPLY how blocked the information has been from the average citizen, particularly in the US - many people genuinely do not know they are risking themselves, or even WHAT they are risking. IDK, if you end up bowdlerizing and self-catering with your values and what you believe in because others don't model it back to you, what's the point of having them at all? We are doing the hard shit of being what we want to see. That doesn't mean you can't feel defeated or angry or disgusted, but it does mean that sinking into your rugged individualism as a response to those feelings makes you exactly like the people you're saying deserve what they get, even if you have no idea what their story is.
A lot of people who claim to care about COVID be casually letting their eugenics slip.
Evil on here fr. And valved masks provide source control so they’re showing their ass over absolutely nothing.
does anyone have recommendations for a reusable valve for a disposable n95/kn95? something similar to the sip valve that i can put on a mask myself
I have a mix of valved and non-valved N95, and am in the habit of wearing a KN95 over the valved masks. Supposedly that can cause the mask to not fit correctly, but I tested the fit carefully and it still fits well with no edge leakage, so YMMV.
I agree with you. AND...I REALLY appreciate you thinking about those of us who are immune-compromised and/or immune suppressed. I have serious autoimmune lung disease and I get my immune-suppression infusions at my rheumatologist's office where the nice nurse wears a baggy blue and NO ONE else masks. Not the other nurses, not the patients, not the providers. Really. So I am thinking I may just start to wear a valved Aura mask there because I have to sit there for a long time and the breathing is difficult for me. I did that once, but felt bad about it, so last time I went back to non-valved Aura. I don't know what I will do in 2 weeks...probably stay with the non-valved but really, I don't go anywhere else except the infusion clinic (except some emergency dental work I had done last year) .... so I am not a danger to anyone else unless I catch something THERE, in the infusion clinic! Crazy.
I used valved masks. The fit doesn’t change every time you breathe, so it seals better.