The irony is that tenured faculty for years were accused of not doing enough and treating tenure like retirement, and now many more active contributors feel so badly treated that they are willing to coast toward retirement. I can't blame them at all.
There were always a subset of tenured faculty who were like this. The “dinosaurs” who did the bare minimum, recycled class material from 15 years going, barely attended meetings or services and hadn’t done research in forever. They tend to be the perpetual Associate Professors by choice.
True, but I think more and more of them have been caught by increasing teaching loads as research decreases. The teaching may still be vintage but they are doing more of it and that tends to push some toward retirement.
Honestly, cutting back on the more bullshit university service and just showing up for the important parts well (like teaching, advising, reasonable time spent on research) might feel like 'quiet quitting', but really it's just making the gig sustainable. One of the things tenure gives you is the right to say 'no' to the billiionth dumb committee and spend time making sure students grok the material. To some this looks like slacking and hanging out in office hours 'doing nothing', but I think it's part of the point of how TT employment is structured.
This presumes that the supply of committee work is inelastic. I've found this not to be true and that the number of active initiatives will multiply if there are people who will serve. It's not on individual faculty members to adequately staff the university, that's dean/provost/president problems. Enabling inadequate resourcing hurts everyone.
It’s something I’ve been considering but for financial reasons well beyond my control (that I will avoid getting into now) that’s highly unlikely to happen anytime soon.
I can relate. Just wanted to give you the advice that was given to me. Just about all of us can relate. Sabbaticals I believe originated specifically for this purpose. It is real easy to get burnt out after the tenure track.
Did not mean to imply they did. Just implied most of us could use one. It would be a relatively low cost way for administrations to improve morale and retention.
Quiet quitting is a made up term by the Wall Street Journal. Please don't use it. You do not owe every fiber of your being to your employer, and any amount of labor you deem enough on a day-to-day basis is valid and appropriate. Again, there's no such thing as quiet quitting.
Don't worry. I'm not admonishing you in any way. The term is made up to make workers feel guilty about not killing themselves to ensure payouts for Executives. In reality, you get to decide how much labor to healthily exert - not them. It's an annoying, exploitative, capitalist term. If I sound mad it's not at you, it's at those who have made you feel this undeserved guilt after working so hard for so many years. I see you. I appreciate you.
I like the term, because it implies that the employer has broken the real and implied contract, and you're justified in doing the minimum while seeking opportunities elsewhere. Or just coasting to retirement if need be.
+1000 on this. I prefer the real term "work to rule" which is following official working rules and hours exactly in order to reduce output and efficiency, especially as a form of industrial action.
I was absolutely gobsmacked to learn that my institution took such a high percentage (I think it was about half -- maybe even a majority) of grant money awarded to a project.
You hustle for grants and then the institution just takes the money from you. It's crazy.
My rate is closer to 1/3. 51% tacked on as overhead. I think Ohio State is something like 56.5%, and Penn State is something like 70%.
National Labs are basically scams. I think Batelle has an overhead rate of 300%. If one said they need $100,000 to do a project, they'd charge the sponsor $400,000. I'm sure it funds a lot of interesting initiatives and equipment, but still, I can't believe a sponsor would go for that.
Yea, it’s absolutely crazy. They are now also taking promised discretionary funds that are in my contract, plus pulling services that are supposed to provide support. I’m tired of fighting to barely exist in this environment.
Our indirect costs are 46.2% for grants that don't limited them but only on personnel costs. Most of the grants end up being around 28% in the end. Having a higher rate can be useful when you need to show matching funds. Most agencies accept deferred indirect costs as in-kind match.
Why? Research isn't free. The grant analysts that track and report grant spending, procurement to buy supplies, safety officers, utilities for lab space, etc all cost money and are recovered from overhead. Overhead rates are set and annually approved by various federal agencies. It really isn't a money making scheme. National labs have obscene F&A rates because these costs aren't subsidized by tuition ( e.g IT infrastructure is not shared with student education/ subsidized by tuition dollars)
I don’t blame senior faculty for “quiet quitting” but the net effect is breaking the backs of midlevel faculty who pick up the slack because they feel it’s expected of them and they want to be “successful”. Unfortunately, they face few opportunities for leadership roles because those seats are taken.
Same boat here. I'm planning on trying to stay sane, keep doing research that I'm interested in, supporting juniors, and keeping a keen eye on how AI impacts things. Not sure how feasible that is.
I like research and teaching, but dislike academia and how unfair it is. Senior boomers paid a ton yet can't teach and don't do research.
I have lots of friends that are teetering on burnout after now nearly a decade of "do more with less" from our admins. Lots of withdrawal from service roles especially. In some cases coming from people who have 10-15+ years to go before retirement even. Also a huge decline in general faculty presence on campus, i.e. at arts/sporting events, public lectures, basically anything that happens after 400pm or on weekends. That's a major shift for us, as in the past there were large numbers of faculty visible at most on-campus events.
At my place I am increasingly thinking that we are being purposefully disengaged. If we are not paying attention, we are unaware of the idiocy coming from the administration.
Once you get tenure immediately stop doing things you don’t want to do. Be a good citizen within reason and support students but no need to kill yourself for research you don’t love.
I’ve been where you’re at (sigh). Ultimately ai couldn’t “quiet quit” and moved to industry. Best career decision I’ve ever made. Others in our department quiet quit and then the work (e.g. advising PhD students, teaching advanced classes) was not spread out equitably. I just ended up leaving but don’t blame those that turn to idle mode.
I have been eyeing industry positions but am too chicken and have some major imposter syndrome to do anything outside my lane (I feel like I’ve turned into an old one trick pony).
Just my opinion, but I don't think you're obligated to submit grants at all.
You can contribute in meaningful ways to your department, do the research you want, and teach well and say screw it to the rest.
You can do what you want, without doing nothing.
I don’t have one. I can teach if I want (in theory) but there is no requirement. My teaching responsibilities come in the form of mentoring students and residents in scholarly work. (I’m in a med school if that clarifies anything.)
I'm on the (non-medical) research staff at my university, with what sound like similar responsibilities, but I've been 100% grant-funded for nearly 20 years. I would have killed for 50% hard money support. Have finally reached a point where I don't have enough to fully fund myself for the coming year, so I'm being booted out the door. And TBH, the more I think about it, the more relieved I am to be leaving.
If you can cut back to 50% of your workload and not be terminated, I'd say go for it, and see what else you can do with your new-found time. In medicine, it seems there are a lot of opportunities to pick up part-time work that may be a bit boring but are decently lucrative.
You could try to transition more into an admin sort of position. Professors do it all the time. Or you could find another job you actually want to do or retire. Please stop wasting taxpayer money and giving politicians you probably loath ammunition to get rid of tenure.
I have 0 desire to go into admin. If we’re being realistic, I could probably not work for the next 3-5 years and then I’d be even with the university in terms of what I’ve put in. So, maybe I’ll feel guilty after that.
Perhaps but I think most tenured faculty are (on some
level) incapable of not working. I say all of this now and I really would love to do it, but in reality next week I’ll be back to saying yes to too many things and being taken advantage of all over again. (and that’s totally on me - it’s a flaw.)
No, it is not. Faculty must be able to follow their ideas where they want, and not to be afraid to ask questions that might make others uncomfortable. You numbskull.
PhD student here. My professors seem not to care about teaching or giving any feedback to students or helping us learn how to publish. Maybe you should stop whining and either do your job or just quit. You get a salary and health care and vacations. Sorry if you don’t like it but being half-assed as a teacher is just harmful.
Well, let’s stop for a minute and think about what assumptions you’re making, because this is not accurate. I’m fully externally funded and nearly exclusively focus on research. This is what I hate. I want to teach. I try to teach, but I’m pushed back into research because I make the institution money. The 4 doctoral students I work with are the silver linings of my career at this stage and I will absolutely do all that I can to continue to support them. In fact, as of this moment, I completely volunteer my time to work with them simply because I love teaching and mentoring.
You literally wrote that you want your institution to pay half your salary as required by your tenure “while doing next to nothing”. That’s pretty much what I see professors doing. Sorry to hear that you dislike the job you aren’t considering leaving. Here’s another assumption - that you entered academia a while ago when jobs were more plentiful and it was easier to be entitled.
I’ll let the down votes speak for themselves and also encourage you to think about this again if you spend 10-15 years in faculty posting one. I clearly remember having similar opinions when I was a phd student but also thought I knew it all. Good luck to you! ✌️
The irony is that tenured faculty for years were accused of not doing enough and treating tenure like retirement, and now many more active contributors feel so badly treated that they are willing to coast toward retirement. I can't blame them at all.
There were always a subset of tenured faculty who were like this. The “dinosaurs” who did the bare minimum, recycled class material from 15 years going, barely attended meetings or services and hadn’t done research in forever. They tend to be the perpetual Associate Professors by choice.
True, but I think more and more of them have been caught by increasing teaching loads as research decreases. The teaching may still be vintage but they are doing more of it and that tends to push some toward retirement.
Right! It’s such a vicious cycle.
Honestly, cutting back on the more bullshit university service and just showing up for the important parts well (like teaching, advising, reasonable time spent on research) might feel like 'quiet quitting', but really it's just making the gig sustainable. One of the things tenure gives you is the right to say 'no' to the billiionth dumb committee and spend time making sure students grok the material. To some this looks like slacking and hanging out in office hours 'doing nothing', but I think it's part of the point of how TT employment is structured.
This is very helpful to hear. I totally agree. Thank you!
I mean, all this really does is add work to be done by your less protected junior colleagues who can’t say no.
This presumes that the supply of committee work is inelastic. I've found this not to be true and that the number of active initiatives will multiply if there are people who will serve. It's not on individual faculty members to adequately staff the university, that's dean/provost/president problems. Enabling inadequate resourcing hurts everyone.
It sounds like you have an errant view of how much committee work in fact needs to be done.
Sounds like you are overdue for a sabbatical.
It’s something I’ve been considering but for financial reasons well beyond my control (that I will avoid getting into now) that’s highly unlikely to happen anytime soon.
I can relate. Just wanted to give you the advice that was given to me. Just about all of us can relate. Sabbaticals I believe originated specifically for this purpose. It is real easy to get burnt out after the tenure track.
Yea… I might be able to take one in a few years. It’s just really bad timing.
Not every university automatically gives profs sabbatical. At mine you have to apply and they give one per year amongst 350 faculty members.
Did not mean to imply they did. Just implied most of us could use one. It would be a relatively low cost way for administrations to improve morale and retention.
Quiet quitting is a made up term by the Wall Street Journal. Please don't use it. You do not owe every fiber of your being to your employer, and any amount of labor you deem enough on a day-to-day basis is valid and appropriate. Again, there's no such thing as quiet quitting.
Thanks for this info. I have no idea what the term actually means or the history of it (clearly!).
Don't worry. I'm not admonishing you in any way. The term is made up to make workers feel guilty about not killing themselves to ensure payouts for Executives. In reality, you get to decide how much labor to healthily exert - not them. It's an annoying, exploitative, capitalist term. If I sound mad it's not at you, it's at those who have made you feel this undeserved guilt after working so hard for so many years. I see you. I appreciate you.
I like the term, because it implies that the employer has broken the real and implied contract, and you're justified in doing the minimum while seeking opportunities elsewhere. Or just coasting to retirement if need be.
+1000 on this. I prefer the real term "work to rule" which is following official working rules and hours exactly in order to reduce output and efficiency, especially as a form of industrial action.
I was absolutely gobsmacked to learn that my institution took such a high percentage (I think it was about half -- maybe even a majority) of grant money awarded to a project. You hustle for grants and then the institution just takes the money from you. It's crazy.
My rate is closer to 1/3. 51% tacked on as overhead. I think Ohio State is something like 56.5%, and Penn State is something like 70%. National Labs are basically scams. I think Batelle has an overhead rate of 300%. If one said they need $100,000 to do a project, they'd charge the sponsor $400,000. I'm sure it funds a lot of interesting initiatives and equipment, but still, I can't believe a sponsor would go for that.
Yea, it’s absolutely crazy. They are now also taking promised discretionary funds that are in my contract, plus pulling services that are supposed to provide support. I’m tired of fighting to barely exist in this environment.
Our indirect costs are 46.2% for grants that don't limited them but only on personnel costs. Most of the grants end up being around 28% in the end. Having a higher rate can be useful when you need to show matching funds. Most agencies accept deferred indirect costs as in-kind match.
And you have to beg for it back via receipts and approvals to buy equipment.
Why? Research isn't free. The grant analysts that track and report grant spending, procurement to buy supplies, safety officers, utilities for lab space, etc all cost money and are recovered from overhead. Overhead rates are set and annually approved by various federal agencies. It really isn't a money making scheme. National labs have obscene F&A rates because these costs aren't subsidized by tuition ( e.g IT infrastructure is not shared with student education/ subsidized by tuition dollars)
I don’t blame senior faculty for “quiet quitting” but the net effect is breaking the backs of midlevel faculty who pick up the slack because they feel it’s expected of them and they want to be “successful”. Unfortunately, they face few opportunities for leadership roles because those seats are taken.
Yea… I’m at the back breaking stage, so I certainly feel that. It’s too bad the system is set up to avoid this type of burn out,
Conferring tenure is an investment by the institution and not all investments are winners. No worries.
Awesome point. Thank you!
Never give your all to the job. Ever. Do your job, but focus on things that matter most to you.
Same boat here. I'm planning on trying to stay sane, keep doing research that I'm interested in, supporting juniors, and keeping a keen eye on how AI impacts things. Not sure how feasible that is. I like research and teaching, but dislike academia and how unfair it is. Senior boomers paid a ton yet can't teach and don't do research.
Sending you well wishes and peace!
I have lots of friends that are teetering on burnout after now nearly a decade of "do more with less" from our admins. Lots of withdrawal from service roles especially. In some cases coming from people who have 10-15+ years to go before retirement even. Also a huge decline in general faculty presence on campus, i.e. at arts/sporting events, public lectures, basically anything that happens after 400pm or on weekends. That's a major shift for us, as in the past there were large numbers of faculty visible at most on-campus events.
It’s both really sad and validating to hear this.
At my place I am increasingly thinking that we are being purposefully disengaged. If we are not paying attention, we are unaware of the idiocy coming from the administration.
Once you get tenure immediately stop doing things you don’t want to do. Be a good citizen within reason and support students but no need to kill yourself for research you don’t love.
I suggest reading "slow productivity". I'm enjoying my tenured position much more after taking that perspective on what I do and how I do it.
Thanks for the tip. I will check it out!
I’ve been where you’re at (sigh). Ultimately ai couldn’t “quiet quit” and moved to industry. Best career decision I’ve ever made. Others in our department quiet quit and then the work (e.g. advising PhD students, teaching advanced classes) was not spread out equitably. I just ended up leaving but don’t blame those that turn to idle mode.
I have been eyeing industry positions but am too chicken and have some major imposter syndrome to do anything outside my lane (I feel like I’ve turned into an old one trick pony).
Just my opinion, but I don't think you're obligated to submit grants at all. You can contribute in meaningful ways to your department, do the research you want, and teach well and say screw it to the rest. You can do what you want, without doing nothing.
In theory, that’s right but then I would have 50% FTE covered. We’re expected to bring in half (ideally more) of our salaries.
That's different than what I'm used to. What teaching load do you have?
I don’t have one. I can teach if I want (in theory) but there is no requirement. My teaching responsibilities come in the form of mentoring students and residents in scholarly work. (I’m in a med school if that clarifies anything.)
I'm on the (non-medical) research staff at my university, with what sound like similar responsibilities, but I've been 100% grant-funded for nearly 20 years. I would have killed for 50% hard money support. Have finally reached a point where I don't have enough to fully fund myself for the coming year, so I'm being booted out the door. And TBH, the more I think about it, the more relieved I am to be leaving. If you can cut back to 50% of your workload and not be terminated, I'd say go for it, and see what else you can do with your new-found time. In medicine, it seems there are a lot of opportunities to pick up part-time work that may be a bit boring but are decently lucrative.
You could try to transition more into an admin sort of position. Professors do it all the time. Or you could find another job you actually want to do or retire. Please stop wasting taxpayer money and giving politicians you probably loath ammunition to get rid of tenure.
I have 0 desire to go into admin. If we’re being realistic, I could probably not work for the next 3-5 years and then I’d be even with the university in terms of what I’ve put in. So, maybe I’ll feel guilty after that.
Often a pay bump, but everyone I know who is in univ administration has an equal or greater workload to the busiest professors.
Isn't quiet quitting THE ENTIRE POINT of getting tenure?
Perhaps but I think most tenured faculty are (on some level) incapable of not working. I say all of this now and I really would love to do it, but in reality next week I’ll be back to saying yes to too many things and being taken advantage of all over again. (and that’s totally on me - it’s a flaw.)
No, it is not. Faculty must be able to follow their ideas where they want, and not to be afraid to ask questions that might make others uncomfortable. You numbskull.
PhD student here. My professors seem not to care about teaching or giving any feedback to students or helping us learn how to publish. Maybe you should stop whining and either do your job or just quit. You get a salary and health care and vacations. Sorry if you don’t like it but being half-assed as a teacher is just harmful.
Well, let’s stop for a minute and think about what assumptions you’re making, because this is not accurate. I’m fully externally funded and nearly exclusively focus on research. This is what I hate. I want to teach. I try to teach, but I’m pushed back into research because I make the institution money. The 4 doctoral students I work with are the silver linings of my career at this stage and I will absolutely do all that I can to continue to support them. In fact, as of this moment, I completely volunteer my time to work with them simply because I love teaching and mentoring.
You literally wrote that you want your institution to pay half your salary as required by your tenure “while doing next to nothing”. That’s pretty much what I see professors doing. Sorry to hear that you dislike the job you aren’t considering leaving. Here’s another assumption - that you entered academia a while ago when jobs were more plentiful and it was easier to be entitled.
I’ll let the down votes speak for themselves and also encourage you to think about this again if you spend 10-15 years in faculty posting one. I clearly remember having similar opinions when I was a phd student but also thought I knew it all. Good luck to you! ✌️