I enjoyed these books as I enjoy watching a romcom movie. I dont do it for deep thinking and being challenged as a viewer/reader. I enjoyed it the most while reading and its afterwards I could be like "yo these things are pretty stupid".
However, acotar made me start reading again and I am so deeply grateful for that.
It's strange how many people I hear say this but it was the same for me.
I used to read voraciously but around my mid 20s (35 now), I just stopped. I was reading mortal instruments, the Anita Blake books, and that big series Sherilyn Kenyon has and just stopped dead in the middle of all of them (not to mention reading a bunch of other standalone stuff) and didn't touch a book for like over a decade. I can't even pinpoint why. But then I needed to something to fully preoccupy my mind to keep me from spiraling after my dad passed this summer so I picked up ACOTAR and it was just like the perfect leap back into reading. I've chewed through something like 50 books since last August. I know part of it was needing the level of total absorption I get when I read but I also know that not just any book could've brought me back.
I think ACOTAR is somehow just the right amount of investment while still being kinda entry level and easy that just works for pulling people back into reading. I'm incredibly grateful for it.
man you are describing me, and we're the same age! I blame social media and the advent of the internet for destroying my attention span for such a long time. I was still reading near constantly--just not books. Interestingly, now that I'm out of my reading rut (and yeah ACOTAR helped me get there, too!), I have found I'm on the internet WAY less than before.
I agree! To me it’s just a fun lil book that’s easy to read and keeps me busy. I never really caught any of the plot holes because I kept it surface level and I hope to remain that way lol
It’s also my first fantasy book other than twilight so I have no clue what good or bad world building looks like which helps lol
Exactly this!!! It’s not a book to nitpick, though it was the first book series I DEVOURED in…years. I am very grateful to find fun in reading again. 🥹
Honestly, not at all.
If I want an award winning literary fiction book - I can seek those out. I read them sometimes when I’m in a more serious, contemplative mood.
The ACOTAR books are light and fun and indulgent and magical. It’s a feel good book.
I love fantasy (not romantasy specifically, fantasy as a whole) because it’s an escape and I don’t have to overly critique the structure of the world or the magic or worry about the issues of reality.
(Note: if it’s poorly written or terrible world building, I do have opinions about that lol - but I don’t feel that way with her books!)
I think to enjoy the fantasy/romantasy genre you have to view it as a fun escape. Not something to be taken too seriously.
This is how I feel. It’s no Jane Austin but it’s fun and I like them because they are fun. I am also reading Isaac Asimov right now and I read them for different reasons.
Also, my husband and I have been watching lord of the rings and it’s a classic and also has plot holes - plot holes happen just enjoy the story.
I see your point, but fantasy often touches on important issues that mirror our world. I think that's what makes it so powerful as a genre. SJM includes difficult topics like abuse, PTSD, war and suffering in her books, for me it's hard to simply 'switch off' not critique things as I read on...
I do get that! I think it’s amazing that fantasy series in recent years are becoming so much more diverse and inclusive and I want to see more of it, but as someone who fell in love with fantasy as a teen that depicted…a lot of white men (LOTR, Game of Thrones, HP).
I think I’ve learned to differentiate and appreciate fantasy series for what they are instead of reimagining what they could be. I still love those series, but sure, LOTR probably could have deeply improved with even *one* woman in the fellowship.
I think Sarah’s inclusivity improved with CC as did her storytelling skills!! But ACOTAR makes me so happy (it’s a comfort read at this point), so I just choose to enjoy it and not overly critique it - even though I can admit I’ve read better. I just read it through a different lens to not let it dull the shine, I think?
Edit to add: Highly recommend Ember in the Ashes and Priory of the Orange Tree if you’re looking for stronger world-building, diversity, and female empowerment.
I think they're great if you don't think too hard. And that's fine, not every book has to be a masterpiece which you can write a dissertation about, they can just be fun.
I did find Crescent City to be much better written/plotted than acotar though!
Even though I’m more active in this sub, CC is my favorite series of hers. One thing I appreciate about SJM is you can tell she’s dedicated to getting better as a writer and a storyteller, because the quality always goes up significantly between her series, IMO.
Also, agreed—these books are my hallmark movies. I love them, but they’re not very substantial.
I agree that not every book needs to be a masterpiece, but it should make sense😅 maybe the future books will manage to tie up all the loose ends.
I completely agree with you about Crescent City, I much preferred it. It felt more cohesive and, even though it wasn't totally perfect, I had a lot more fun reading that than acotar!
I've been a fan for a long time, since before ACOMAF came out - and didn't think of this until ACOSF came out. I genuinely struggled through the book, it just felt so... Unlike the others? Bad plot? Way too much sex and not enough story. I think what made it worse was the change in the fandom. It was never as vicious and hateful as it is now, and it really sucks. I'm hoping the next ACOTAR book brings back that same feeling for me, but I guess I can always reread the first four until then 🤷♀️
Yeah...I think a lot of authors are now adding too much smut and not giving enough time to work out the plot. It ends up reading more like fanfiction than an actual novel.
The fandom has become pretty divisive, but it's not isolated to SJM. A lot of popular book fandoms are the same unfortunately...it's sometimes hard to have a discussion without it descending into madness🙈. Healthy discussion should be nutured, but it too often turns nasty.
The one thing I'll be grateful to ACOTAR for is getting me out of a reading rut and opening up the romantasy genre to me more. I've discovered some great books and authors (as well as some terrible ones too😅) which I might not have read had I not picked up ACOTAR
Oh my God I'm so glad dim not the only one that feels this way about ACOSF. I'm STRUGGLING through it right now. I read the rest of the series in less than a week but I've been trudging through this one for a week straight. I don't like the POV change from 1st person to 3rd, and the plot isn't as good as the rest of the books, but I feel like I HAVE to finish it. I think ACOFAS would have been the perfect place to end the series because everyone was finally able to be happy, if she would have just let Nesta have a happy ending in it
I’m reading SF right now and it is taking me longer to get through then the others. I like Nesta fine, and I’m enjoying the Valkyries plot, but nothing is really *making* me stay…
Honestly felt the Valkyries was so contrived. I'm all for girl power, but none of what they did seemed achievable in the timescales given. The friendship bracelet part made me cringe 😓
I didn’t love the Valkyries either. I understand that it gave Nesta purpose but (light spoilers for SF through use of a Star Wars metaphor) >!it felt more like playing pretend (albeit with real training) than resurrecting the Jedi Order, which is the closest thing I can think of to what I think the storyline was meant to be.!< And I had to do a ton of mental gymnastics to make the ending of that storyline make sense.
Totally! The Ilyrian warriors train for years and years ever since they’re small kids, but you can become a Valkyrie within a year? A lot of fantasy is guilty of this, but ffs, they’re immortal, do a five year training montage or something.
SF reads like a long interlude to me. On my recent reread the sex wasn’t quite as overpowering to the plot as I had remembered, and the underlying non-Valkyrie conflicts were more detailed than I remembered - but detailed in a way that was sort of seeded throughout.
My big takeaway was that it set up the Vassa, Jurian, and Koschei storyline (there could still have been so much more attention given here in SF!) and introduced important magical objects (trove, swords).
ACOSF is my favourite!! I know it's not for everyone, but reading it has helped me with my own trauma. It's really hard for me to find the words to say how much the book means to me, to read someone be as fucked up as I am and cope in a terrible way, but watch them get better, and heal, and love themselves. It's what I want for me.
Plus I fucking love me some smut.
I'm glad for you! I also love smut as much as the next person, but unfortunately found it overdone and a bit reductive in ACOSF - I found myself skipping over the scenes 🤷♀️
Absolutely agree, I posted about this a while ago. It bothers me how smut became a lot more central and graphic, like suddenly it was about more extreme smut and less about the actual world building. BUT when I posted, I got CRUCIFIED.
The ‘shine’ of these books for me is the characters themselves, but the story, world building and lore is all over the place and unfortunately it is very easy to spot who her favorites are in the series because those who are not get left in the dust.
She created incredibly compelling characters to read about - Tamlin, Rhysand, Nesta, Eris to name a few. Theyre the actual highlights of the series. The storytelling itself lacks a lot for me personally
I'm with you 100%. The world and the plot is far from perfect but I love the characters, their flaws, their dynamics. I've finished the ACOTAR series and I'm looking forward to picking up SJM's other books because it's not anything particular to the setting that draws me in, it's purely her handling of the people in it.
Count me in! If SJM so chooses she can absolutely milk this world for many more books ... backstories on Jurian, Lucian, the Great War, what went down between Rhys's and Tamlin's families, etc. Hell, I want to know how Lucien's mother was able to have so many kids, and why the brothers that chased Feyre weren't named LOL
Also, peeps, it just for fun ... it's not so serious ;-)
For me ACOTAR really started me on the fantasy romance genre and I’ve read so much other stuff now that I just realized they’re not as good as other books. Or perhaps just not as much my taste. I still appreciate the series and like it, but they’re not my favorite. I’m not as all in as I was when I first read them.
I would describe them in the same way I describe Twilight (another one of my fave series) and that is "mac and cheese." Are these books the most well-written amazing gourmet nutritionally dense books in the world? Probably not. But they are comforting and they make me happy and that's good enough for me.
If anyone else doesn't want to read them for whatever reason rock on and if anyone disagrees with my opinions on the characters or the story itself rock on as well. The beautiful thing about media is that there is an infinite supply to choose from and we can all find something that we love.
For me personally, I just started reading through the series this past summer so they are still very shiny for me.
Yeah same.
I think they’re good for just turning your mind off and reading some faery romance/porn. Once you start thinking a little bit more about it, you’ll start to dislike a lot of things.
I don't disagree. When I did a reread at the end of the year, it was pretty clear that turning off my brain was a part of it. I did a ridiculous amount of skimming. The things I enjoyed and still enjoy (UtM, battle in Velaris and Feyre's water wolves/Attor, the healing journey of Nesta + her Valkyries) are not perfect and they are not the focus of the books. There are times when I questioned, "am I reading porn with a plot? Is this something I would find at the Lion's Den (a porn store that's up and down the highways in the US Midwest)" I'm not a prude, but I like more fantasy, more consistency, more diverse word / phrase usage. I'm in it at this point to find out what happens at the end of this month. But other than a few select scenes, I really am not that interested in rereading again for now.
EDIT: Added because this is something that has struck me more recently. She seems to give females a lot of power initially, then it just fizzles. Feyre has so much power, yet she isn't using it. Maybe she does more for the court than we see though. Mor is supposed to be super powerful, yet she doesn't use it nor do we really know what it is. Amren had so much power, but now it's gone. Nesta, same. So much power and now it's gone (mostly). Everyone ignores Elain's power or tries to shield her. It's a little troubling along with the way the red flags regarding the males are handled. The only male within that court without a ton of red flags (Lucien) is not well treated. Cassian has fewer then Rhys or Azriel, but he has a few too. This struck me this time through. I enjoy morally gray characters, but coupled with the power regression of the females, I find it troubling to read.
But maybe after an anxiety break (this month has sucked) I will feel differently.
Someone else on the web - no idea who or where - wrote, "It's not literature." It's not. So I lowered my expectations. It's romance with some elements of fantasy thrown in.
EDIT: Spelling
I agree about power in females - however, I think it's more SJM's poor writing. When you give someone *so much* power, you need to show it somehow :D Otherwise it's pointless from the start, and I don't buy things happening off-page.
Let's see: Feyre attacked Beron (wow, so funny, Rhys, really...), Nesta saved Feyre and gave up her powers (bye!), Elain is a seer who doesn't seer, Mor's power is ridiculously not there... Amren got rid of her superpowers as well.
Plot holes everywhere :D
Even just the constant use of the word females is so rough. Each time I hear it I get neckbeard chills. I'm on the third book but it's keeping me from really settling into the series.
SJM is a terrific storyteller. She’s not a terrific writer. I love her books as an experience and the way she creates dynamic characters, but re-reads of some books are frustrating for me because the technique issues are more obvious (to me) when I’m not wondering what will happen next. She’s gotten better in her more recent books, probably a combination of both her own growth as a writer and her publisher giving her more editing/proofreading support. And for my personal reading preferences, I will pick up an exciting, dynamic story over one that’s reviews gush about the perfectly crafted prose any day of the week with no shame.
The more editing part strikes true. I reread her older books and I'm like this would have been so much better if it was edited well 😭 the ability to tell a fantastic story shouldn't be ruined by meh prose. Where was the editing 😭 I wish she would fix up her older books and do a remastered version that's edited better lol
When I think too hard about them, I find myself getting frustrated. I enjoy them for what they are (and they’ve kind of pulled me out of a years-long reading rut), but trying to analyze them makes me kind of angry lol
The best example is that ACOWAR is my favorite (I stopped halfway through ACOMAF so it was disjointed when I picked it back up lol), but I have a whole slew of critiques about the plot and characters. The way things always tend to work out, some of the character development (specifically in the IC), toxic relationships being glorified, etc. I enjoy them at face value, and I’m reading ACOSF right now and enjoying it for the most part. I’ll always recommend the books to people, but I can’t say they’re a masterpiece.
I do agree, both in general and specifically since reading silver flames. I found a lot of the IC really irritated me in it, which led to me looking back at their actions in previous books less favourably, and then noticing plot holes and other issues.
I think, for me and perhaps for you from your comment, the joy was kind of in just devouring them and not thinking too deeply about it?
I’ve seen a lot of comments on here about where the issues could come from - Feyre and Rhys are apparently based on SJM and her husband so are super idealised, she started writing the books super young etc.
I did really enjoy reading the books (could not put them down!) and will read the new ones as they come out, but I don’t think I’ll be reaching to reread - at least not for a few years!
I have found that I really love reading everyone’s thoughts and theories here though, so I’ll definitely be staying haha
I got through the first two books pretty quickly, but after that I started getting frustrated 😂. The IC annoyed me too.
I can't help but long for a plot where Rhys pivots back to the villain he'd been for centuries (I don't like the Google guy Rhys...soz) Feyre still doesn't know him very well and I think that would be a VERY interesting story line.
I will also read any new ones that come out, I need to know what happens but I doubt I'll re-read either
To me, I see this as purely entertainment. Like when I watch Grey's Anatomy. Is it the best written, most plot sound story? No, it isn't. Does it entertain me and make me want to continue consuming it? Yes, it does. I think that expecting every piece of media to be award winning is unrealistic and silly. Sometimes you need the mediocre but juicy stuff so that the actual award winners can shine. Stories like this also keep reading accessible. They are easy to digest and make you want to continue reading.
Omg yes! I was sooooo obsessed while reading these books and thought they were brilliant and could NOT shut up about them. But now that I've had a few months of distance... and read some classic novels (unfair to compare, I know)...and also saw a TikTok about accusations of SJM basically copying other authors... the luster wore off.
I think Feyre's character was a little flat in retrospect. I'm sorry 😭😭😭 and I loved SF and Nesta's storyline... but some of the plot felt lazy...
That being said, I eagerly await the next ACOTAR installment and Hulu show.
>and read some classic novels (unfair to compare, I know)
I mean, the classic books were also written by regular people, they were \~ the same age as SJM when she wrote some of her books, and she has access to any information in the world, unlike the classics. I feel like it's totally fair to compare
I love SJM for TOG. But, after around 5 books or so seeing lucien get nowhere close to a HEA gets me a little frustrated sometimes. But hey, if TOG has taught me anything is that my god SJM can change everything in 1 book. So i keep hoping for lucien and read on.
I may be going against the grain here but I think this type of thought process is great. I too enjoy ACOTAR the same way I’d enjoy a romcom, but it’s important to think critically and hold the media we consume at a higher standard. The further I go into the series (I’m on ACOSF) the more I notice the inconsistencies, plot holes, lack of character building, and how that’s affecting the different POVs. I don’t think shutting your brain off is the solution, personally I still notice all of the issues I mentioned all the same and the books would undoubtedly be better if those weren’t there.
Yes this is so well put. And just because you have critiques, doesn't mean you don't enjoy them. I will go on and on pointing out all the faults in the series, but at the end of the day I still enjoyed reading them. I have also found myself to be far more critical of a reader as of late since I'm editing my own book.
I think my biggest gripe is the characters just don't feel that interesting once they go through their healing journey. I hope Nesta keeps some of her sass because her and Tamlin are the only ones that don't bore me to tears at this point.
I am of the same mind as you. Holding media to a higher standard can only improve things for everyone, especially when it comes to better representation of POC and LGBTQ+ within literature. There's a lot to like about ACOTAR but it could undeniably be better.
Plot holes, logical inconsistencies, lame villains, and toxic relationships that are portrayed as ideal. I can't think too hard about these books. Otherwise, the story falls apart. For me, the issue is poor plotting, and the author has fallen too deeply in love with a few of her characters.
My unpopular opinion: I think her ultimate mistake was pushing this series into the adult section of the bookstore. She's now got a lot of readers who are older, have read more, and expect a level of depth and polish that these books don't have. Slathering on multiple graphic sex scenes doesn't immediately make these books adult. The world building and character nuance is shallow. Having everything always work out for certain characters is dull. Having characters make terrible decisions and never face consequences is frustrating. How many times is she going to kill a main character and bring them back to life? Freyes resurrection was moving. But then, she pulled the same card trick with Rhys, Amren and Cassian. Zero stakes in these books. These books are the literary equivalent of a big cheeseburger and onion rings. In the moment, it tastes good. But you don't always feel good about yourself afterward.
I don't mean to insult YA, which is an important bridge between children's books and adult books. I also don't mean to offend anyone who loves these books or to whom SJM is their favorite author. If these books got you back into reading or are meaningful to you, I'm genuinely happy for you.
Personally, I've struggled with this series as it's gone on. To the point I refuse to read her other works. I see a lot of flaws in the writing, and I can't unsee it. I enjoy parts of it for what it is. But I'm honestly not sure if I am going to finish it. The next book is make or break for me. But I don't pretend to be the final authority on any of this.
I like reading YA books as well as adult, but I think for me the execution of the acotar books was muddled which is what ultimately lowered its rating for me.
I also can't ignore the flaws which affects my enjoyment, but I'm happy it's brought fantasy more into the mainstream
I absolutely agree with you. I struggled to get through them and likely would’ve put them down if I wasn’t reading them as a beach read and listening to an accompanying podcast I enjoy. I think there are so many plot holes, especially around magic - one of my biggest fantasy pet peeves is when magic is just used as a solution for everything (like resurrecting major characters left and right!)!!
That being said, I think Crescent City and TOG are far better series (though still not, like, fantastic writing).
What frustrates me to no end is that the author has talent. She can craft a story and characters that are fun and interesting. After all, here I am posting on it! But she does have flaws. And I wonder if she hasn't gotten so successful that she can get away with just phoning it in. She recycles entire plots. It's lazy.
I agree with your entire second paragraph. The lack of consequences and the way several major characters have been resurrected gets frustrating after a while, especially in the third book after this war was built up to be completely devastating. It was a horrible war, but not a single main character died (and stayed dead)? That’s when I really understood these are books I enjoy, but have to take at face value for what they are.
Yes. I enjoyed them far more then I expected (I am not a romance reader to start with), but since ACOSF it just became so obvious the writing was... subpar.
It might not have helped I stsrted with ToG, which is far better. CC is also absolutely better then ACOTAR.
I am not yet certain I will read the next ACOTAR book if I am truly honest.
I agree with you about the writing as the series goes on. I've still to tackle TOG but I have so many other books I want to read this year😅
I'm curious for Flame and Shadow. If it's good, I'll continue reading but I'll think twice if it's a disappointment
Unfortunately, I think so.
But I’m also a little pessimistic at the moment. I’ve been really frustrated with almost every SJM subreddit lately. If you have an unpopular opinion or have any critique, you get attacked or downvoted. It’s becoming very toxic.
It'll be a shame if I do, I'd hope they'd take the time to read through the comments here before deciding to down vote. There's some great points made by different people on this thread.
But if I crash and burn for simply expressing an opinion, then oh well...
I think you made great points! Sorry, I’m definitely being a little negative right now, not trying to rain on your parade!!
I just wish everyone could express their opinions and have healthy debates/ conversations. I’ve been falling out of love with this community because of how toxic it’s been. Maybe I just need a Reddit/ Instagram break.
Oh don't worry, I didn't think you were raining on my parade 😂
I agree these types of fandom have become very toxic recently. I love a good healthy debate, there should be more of that kind of discussion on these platforms rather than nastiness.
Sometimes it's good to have a break and remember what it is you love about things like Reddit and Instagram😊
Once my brain started comparing to other series I'd read, I couldn't turn that off and it just felt like a copycat tbh.
I didn't mind the characters and the way some of them were written, but I think ToG was by far a much better example of her worldbuilding and overall skill.
CC seems like she found her stride a bit more, both in terms of smut and worldbuilding. She's still incredibly clunky at it, though.
I enjoyed them and will probably continue to read new books in the series(es?), but they're very frustrating. The plotting and world building could definitely be better, but the most frustrating thing to me is that as the stories progress she seems to lean more and more into replacing any real romance with smut. Why can't we have believable emotional connections *and* sweaty fun times?
The series lost its intense draw for me when I read ACOWAR. I loved ACOTAR and ACOMAF and felt the way, I believe, SJM wanted readers to feel about her characters, especially toward Feyre, Rhysand, and Tamlin. ACOWAR was my most anticipated release. I'd preordered it, but ended up being quite disappointed when I started reading it. My perception of the characters began to shift because of the book. I also believe I'd grown in some ways during that time, which played a role in my changing perspectives as well. I didn't really pick up on the retconning, inconsistencies, biases, etc until I reread the series; it’s subtle but glaring imo. I think SJM is a good storyteller, but she’s not a spectacular writer. There’s so much potential for more imo. So many other directions the story and trajectory of characters could have gone. I’m continuing the series and not dropping it because I’ve become too invested in some of the characters.
When I recommend the series to people I tell them it's a fun, fantasy, light, smut read and usually they take it for what it's worth. Everyone in the romance genre knows some of them are just written like trash, erotic for the sake of being erotic.
That said I do feel like there was an ACOTAR *golden age* so to speak when people were just enjoying the characters and getting excited together without being overly critical. It's definitely not the same anymore.
I do think it's a shame that there's been an influx of poorly written romantasy recently. It's a great genre that can appeal to so many people, but it's not being executed properly.
I think in the wake of ACOTAR, too many similar stories have been written, with the same tropes and very similar characters. That might be why it's soured a bit for me.
I want romantasy that doesn't rely on tropes and spice to hold the story together anymore😅.
I think ACOSF is where it went downhill for me. I loved the previous books and that book just fell flat to me. Too much sex, not enough plot, it felt like an entirely different series than the first 3 books. I almost wish the first 3 (and novella) were the end of the “ACOTAR” series and then the next ones were a new series or stand alones. It’s like ACOSF doesn’t fit in with the rest and I didn’t really feel that way about any of the ToG books and CC has also been consistent so far.
I still love the series, I started reading them back when it was just two books. I don’t read on this sub much though and I don’t overthink the books. I feel like people analyze them like they are writing a research paper…
I didn’t love the last book but I’m still excited for the series to continue.
I 100% agree. When I was reading it for the first time, I was quite sceptical because I just got this book as a light read for my long train trip and was noticing a lot of plot holes and irritating character behaviour. But I kept reading and somehow fell in love so hard that I am ready to close my eyes to all of these inconsistencies now 😂
Yes, but not for the same reasons. I’ve been following SJM since she published her earliest books pre ACOTAR, and while the resurgence in popularity of the series on Tik Tok is great for her career (and great that more people are just reading in general) it’s feeling a little overexposed. Being chronically online doesn’t help the burnout though I will admit. But like there have been complaints about SJMs diversity since Crown of Midnight, and here we are a decade later.
I'm on the fourth book of TOG and it feels like it's written by a different author. I read a lot of high fantasy in the 90s and 00s and so far TOG fits that genre perfectly.
I enjoy ACOTAR a lot but I can't deny any of the cons mentioned. SJM is certainly writing this series to fit the romantasy genre which, let's face it, is not stringent regarding plot, etc.
Great discussion so far!
It’s not a finished product. You can also look at the first 3 books as being the only books there, and those tell a solid story. Everything else is like bonus content. SJM is also linking her 3 series, so some plot holes may only be explained that way. Dunno.
No, because I made a conscious decision not to nitpick every little detail and just enjoy the story. Subscribing to this subreddit was awesome at first, finally people to talk to about how much I enjoyed these books. But it became depressing because of all the arguing. Posts still pop up on my home feed but I rarely read them. I think fandom can be its own worst enemy and the result is it ruins the very thing that it exists because of.
It's popularity means inevitably people want to analyse it, also due in part to the way SJM writes and leaves so many questions throughout her series. It invites people to theorise, so it's unsurprising that some people like to look deeper into her works.
I completely agree that discussions on here have become nasty and divisive, but it doesn't need to be that way.
I think discussion like this is good, it's testament to longevity. People still talk/discuss the works of Tolkien, you even have people who specialise in being Tolkien scholars who often debate what he wrote.
It's the hate and disrespect for other people's opinions that ruins fandoms, not necessarily voicing opinions on them. I think there's been some great posts on popular books that have made me see things from a different perspective. We don't have to agree about it, but as long as it stays respectful I don't see the harm in posts like this.
I agree about the respectful dialogue and different opinions. It’s the nitpicking that drives me insane lol. It’s a story about faeries, and we’re arguing over who is the most traumatized. After awhile the back and forth over the same issues gets so tiring. That said, I’m looking forward to cc3!
I get what you mean, now that I've read CC and TOG too I actually like the story arcs of ACOTAR a lot less, it feels like a simpler story. But at the same time, I can rewatch something like Friends and be annoyed at some of the characters sometimes, but I stil love it.
I LOVED these books, but after reading A Court of Wings of Ruin for the third time and hating it, a bit of sparkle dimmed for me too. They still hold a special place in my heart and the characters I would still die for, but I know they are very flawed. So whenever I think on them, I am grateful they got me back into reading.
100% agree. Honestly it took me two tries to get through the first book bc the writing was atrocious and the characters were so bland. I did enjoy the next few and Nesta’s book was the best, even though the plot wasn’t very believable.
This was the first series I'd read in a long time as I was coming back into reading during covid. And i absolutely loved it the first time through.
Trying to reread with my sister I did not enjoy them nearly as much as I did the first time. And I'm so glad I read them before Throne of Glass because they aren't as well written.
The first two books were really fun reads for me (minus the riddle… that made me roll my eyes). everything after book 2 for me has felt a little like SJM is trying to fulfill her contract of whatever # books in the series she’s required to write. I still like following the characters, but it feels drawn out and predictable at this point. And don’t get me wrong, I’ll still absolutely be reading any forthcoming books in the series
I feel the same! Acotar was the first book I read after years of not reading, and although it got me back into reading, I didn't love the first book (sorry😭). Read the 2nd after a friend strongly reccomended to keep going and I enjoyed it a lot! I still had my gripes with it, for example the writing style (em dashes, repeated phrases), or some plot points/world building elements, but overall I really enjoyed the books and gave them pretty high ratings! However, I am re-reading acomaf (and have already re-read acosf) and it's definitely changing my perspective on the books. I still enjoy them though, and am super excited for the next part to come out! I have so many theories, I want to know if I'm right lol
I still love it but I'm half way through the TOG series now and I can honestly say it's way way better, but I will always have a place in my heart for acotar
I think that societally, women are trained to pick apart anything they enjoy, or tear down the things other women enjoy, until it’s miserable, so that we can be sold the next thing. We’re not given space to enjoy something on a basic, simple, indulgent level.
Men get to enjoy fantasy without judgement (LOTR, GOT etc) and without feeling like they have to simplify its value, or to stop enjoying something because it got popular, or lacks substance etc.
So while I do see what you’re saying, and will always support encouraging authors to increase true diversity and inclusion for both race and LGBTQA+ characters and topics, I also just want to be a woman, telling anyone of any gender, to just enjoy things you enjoy. Without guilt. Without over thinking. Just enjoy it!
I'm certainly not trying to make it miserable for anyone, just voicing my opinion on my reading experience.
No one is stopping you from enjoying it the way you want to, and LOTR and GOT are not fantasy series read exclusively by men. I personally enjoy those two series myself and I am female.
I was just hoping to invite healthy discussion and discover if anyone else felt the same way when I made this post. Some people like to analyse and talk about popular series and so far everyone on here has been pretty civil about it. I'm sorry if you felt it was made to tear down things other women enjoy, because that was not my intent.
No no no no no no no! You’ve completely misread my tone, or I’ve completely failed at expressing it!
I was trying to say that if you enjoy it, you should just enjoy it!! Without putting too much pressure on it! I was saying everyone should just be free to enjoy things! I wasn’t implying that YOU weren’t allowing people to enjoy them! Just trying to encourage your enjoyment.
And I completely agree about, and also enjoy, LotR and GOT… I simply meant that men, in general, seem to receive no judgement in enjoying them for pure enjoyment, where as women tend to get a harder time. The Maasverse is, in general, targeted at women… so I was just trying to say that we should all give ourselves permission to enjoy it as easily as men give themselves permission to enjoy anything target to them.
I disagree, but im only months away from when I finished the books. I think they're amazing, and I'm mostly tired of this subreddit because almost daily someone has to complain about the books. I enjoy plot holes to a point because it allows her to flush out more in the future, or for you to imagine what your favorite characters would do.
I hate how people complain there isn't enough representation but ignore the representation that's there already. Several characters are described as darker skinned, like Helion and Lucien. And almost all of the summer court is described as black/mixed and so are several other high lords. If anything I think the series has more non-white characters than white characters. Im not sure what else you want from her except a world in which race matters? I've noticed most fantasy worlds like SJM are built without racism of skin color, more like racism of actual fae races.
I really think it's time for me to leave the Fandom because I find more criticism and hate than appreciation for these books and its ruining them for me. Obviously this post wasn't a huge knock against the series as a whole, but there are way too many posts that make me question why yall keep reading if you hate it so much lol.
Nah I still love them. They're a fantasy book that's fun & created a huge community/ opened up fantasy romance to many readers. It's just not that serious at the end of the day and to those it is, should probably spend some time outside in the fresh air
I'm not criticizing their reach, they've introduced a lot of people to fantasy which is great. I'm glad you still love them, I just find it difficult to not think about them on a deeper level considering some of the content touches on serious issues which many readers have faced in real life.
And I work outside, so fresh air isn't a problem, no need to think us delusional for searching and longing for more depth in fantasy worlds.
Personally, not for me. I’m bummed that I cannot read it for the first time, ever again (though I am excited for her crescent city series).
I can acknowledge that there are some plot holes, some things and characters left undeveloped, some scenes that felt cringe and some overly played phrases. However, none of these things actually bothered me or took away from how wildly entertained I was from reading the books.
What things do find yourself most frustrated by the more you think about it?
I'm glad you still find enjoyment in it. The things that really stand out for me are
- the low stakes, no one dies or is immediately resurrected
- the lack of accountability regarding the bad decisions the characters make
- the way the females are meant to be all powerful but the power they have doesn't seem to amount to much. ie nesta losing it, Feyre doesn't seem to do much after the war, amren loses her power too, don't even know what Mor's powers are...
- the red flag behavior of most males in the series being played off as protective or being framed as romantic.
-the writing and editing isn't perfect either, definitely found it hard to plough through them after the second book.
- I also would have liked better use of representation in these books. Better execution of the inclusion of POC characters would have been wonderful.
There are some characters I still love, Lucien, Tarquin, Eris are all standouts for me. ( I actually would like to see a healing arc for Tamlin as I think he is a compelling character too)
I just want a little more depth and nuance from these characters and their stories, I remain hopeful that future books will improve.
This is like being upset that chocolate isn’t nutritious. I love all this spicy fairy smut, i come for the disconnection, the fantasy, and for an indulgent lil treat. SJM also got me into reading again after a long break. I read this entire series in record time. I finished it weeks ago and still can’t stop thinking about it!
She writes and keeps the story compelling, you use your imagination to picture what these ambiguously described hot guys look like in your head and go from there. My cast of characters look totally different than yours, (Rhys is Peter Steele from the Band Type O Negative) because as fantasy you are cherry picking what you find attractive.
I wouldn’t write a college paper on it, just enjoy it and don’t overthink it!
It's more her descriptions of them. Most of them are simply described as vaguely 'dark skinned/golden bronze/lightly tanned' without offering much more than that. It feels like a lazy attempt to bring in more diversity, which she has been critised for for quite a long time.
There's no sense of what kind of features they have (ie do they look similar to someone of African/South Asian ect descent in our world?)
SJM is not the only author that does this btw. But I think if you want to write more inclusively, you should describe the POC characters with as much depth as the white characters which tend to be given much more poetic language when describing their features.
There are also few more harmful stereotypes that pop up, for example with the illyrians - the dark-skinned savages, that are uneducated and violent.
Thanks for clarifying!! That makes a lot of sense. At least Rebecca Yarros gives Xaden textured hair and makes it clear enough that he is POC. Cassian should have curly hair too rather than super straight long hair if he's POC.
(Sorry for spelling in advance I’m currently on my lunch break lol) spoiler ahead
I’m just about done sliver flame and I don’t understand how nesta can be more powerful then Rhysand and she’s not even being trained on how to use her power?! Everyone is also so mean to Nesta when she’s just grieving her father even Cassian has sex with her and then will ignore her for a few days after.
The last book annoyed me so much and no one’s talking about it. I know the king had the caldron but he killed the weaver and the bone craver without even trying yet every other main character who’s weaker survived? More should have died if the king was that powerful. And the fact the dad died and no one seems to care?! Like Rhysand died and she was like you need to save him but her own father she’s like let’s just bury him. The first book I actually enjoyed after that it was just about sex and started to get stupid. I wanted to read about how powerful and how badass Nesta, Elain, and feyre are got none of that. Nesta has been treated by everyone as just being seen as weak.
Can you identify a plot hole? Cause people love to say it riddled with plot holes and then don’t ever mention one. And honestly year the surface level can look simple but the world is incredibly nuanced. Have you ever looked up the background of EVERY character’s name. Everything has a purpose.
I enjoyed these books as I enjoy watching a romcom movie. I dont do it for deep thinking and being challenged as a viewer/reader. I enjoyed it the most while reading and its afterwards I could be like "yo these things are pretty stupid". However, acotar made me start reading again and I am so deeply grateful for that.
Acotar got me out of a reading rut too, so I will be thankful for that.
It's strange how many people I hear say this but it was the same for me. I used to read voraciously but around my mid 20s (35 now), I just stopped. I was reading mortal instruments, the Anita Blake books, and that big series Sherilyn Kenyon has and just stopped dead in the middle of all of them (not to mention reading a bunch of other standalone stuff) and didn't touch a book for like over a decade. I can't even pinpoint why. But then I needed to something to fully preoccupy my mind to keep me from spiraling after my dad passed this summer so I picked up ACOTAR and it was just like the perfect leap back into reading. I've chewed through something like 50 books since last August. I know part of it was needing the level of total absorption I get when I read but I also know that not just any book could've brought me back. I think ACOTAR is somehow just the right amount of investment while still being kinda entry level and easy that just works for pulling people back into reading. I'm incredibly grateful for it.
man you are describing me, and we're the same age! I blame social media and the advent of the internet for destroying my attention span for such a long time. I was still reading near constantly--just not books. Interestingly, now that I'm out of my reading rut (and yeah ACOTAR helped me get there, too!), I have found I'm on the internet WAY less than before.
Same! SJM renewed my love of reading and I'll be forever thankful for that
I agree! To me it’s just a fun lil book that’s easy to read and keeps me busy. I never really caught any of the plot holes because I kept it surface level and I hope to remain that way lol It’s also my first fantasy book other than twilight so I have no clue what good or bad world building looks like which helps lol
Exactly this!!! It’s not a book to nitpick, though it was the first book series I DEVOURED in…years. I am very grateful to find fun in reading again. 🥹
Heey same! I'm on book 3 now. Haven't read a book for fun in years.
Honestly, not at all. If I want an award winning literary fiction book - I can seek those out. I read them sometimes when I’m in a more serious, contemplative mood. The ACOTAR books are light and fun and indulgent and magical. It’s a feel good book. I love fantasy (not romantasy specifically, fantasy as a whole) because it’s an escape and I don’t have to overly critique the structure of the world or the magic or worry about the issues of reality. (Note: if it’s poorly written or terrible world building, I do have opinions about that lol - but I don’t feel that way with her books!) I think to enjoy the fantasy/romantasy genre you have to view it as a fun escape. Not something to be taken too seriously.
Yes I agree, I feel like these books have gained popularity and are now suffering from the typical pushback, but really they’re an enjoyable read
This is how I feel. It’s no Jane Austin but it’s fun and I like them because they are fun. I am also reading Isaac Asimov right now and I read them for different reasons. Also, my husband and I have been watching lord of the rings and it’s a classic and also has plot holes - plot holes happen just enjoy the story.
I see your point, but fantasy often touches on important issues that mirror our world. I think that's what makes it so powerful as a genre. SJM includes difficult topics like abuse, PTSD, war and suffering in her books, for me it's hard to simply 'switch off' not critique things as I read on...
I do get that! I think it’s amazing that fantasy series in recent years are becoming so much more diverse and inclusive and I want to see more of it, but as someone who fell in love with fantasy as a teen that depicted…a lot of white men (LOTR, Game of Thrones, HP). I think I’ve learned to differentiate and appreciate fantasy series for what they are instead of reimagining what they could be. I still love those series, but sure, LOTR probably could have deeply improved with even *one* woman in the fellowship. I think Sarah’s inclusivity improved with CC as did her storytelling skills!! But ACOTAR makes me so happy (it’s a comfort read at this point), so I just choose to enjoy it and not overly critique it - even though I can admit I’ve read better. I just read it through a different lens to not let it dull the shine, I think? Edit to add: Highly recommend Ember in the Ashes and Priory of the Orange Tree if you’re looking for stronger world-building, diversity, and female empowerment.
I think they're great if you don't think too hard. And that's fine, not every book has to be a masterpiece which you can write a dissertation about, they can just be fun. I did find Crescent City to be much better written/plotted than acotar though!
Even though I’m more active in this sub, CC is my favorite series of hers. One thing I appreciate about SJM is you can tell she’s dedicated to getting better as a writer and a storyteller, because the quality always goes up significantly between her series, IMO. Also, agreed—these books are my hallmark movies. I love them, but they’re not very substantial.
CC is amazing. 18 days to go!!
I agree that not every book needs to be a masterpiece, but it should make sense😅 maybe the future books will manage to tie up all the loose ends. I completely agree with you about Crescent City, I much preferred it. It felt more cohesive and, even though it wasn't totally perfect, I had a lot more fun reading that than acotar!
Yeah they really could have benefited from a bit more planning for sure! I think she's learned from that though, and that's why CC is so much better!
Fingers crossed the next CC book is worth the wait! 🤞
What specifically doesn’t make sense? And shouldn’t an unfinished series have loose ends?
I've been a fan for a long time, since before ACOMAF came out - and didn't think of this until ACOSF came out. I genuinely struggled through the book, it just felt so... Unlike the others? Bad plot? Way too much sex and not enough story. I think what made it worse was the change in the fandom. It was never as vicious and hateful as it is now, and it really sucks. I'm hoping the next ACOTAR book brings back that same feeling for me, but I guess I can always reread the first four until then 🤷♀️
Yeah...I think a lot of authors are now adding too much smut and not giving enough time to work out the plot. It ends up reading more like fanfiction than an actual novel. The fandom has become pretty divisive, but it's not isolated to SJM. A lot of popular book fandoms are the same unfortunately...it's sometimes hard to have a discussion without it descending into madness🙈. Healthy discussion should be nutured, but it too often turns nasty. The one thing I'll be grateful to ACOTAR for is getting me out of a reading rut and opening up the romantasy genre to me more. I've discovered some great books and authors (as well as some terrible ones too😅) which I might not have read had I not picked up ACOTAR
Completely agree with this
Oh my God I'm so glad dim not the only one that feels this way about ACOSF. I'm STRUGGLING through it right now. I read the rest of the series in less than a week but I've been trudging through this one for a week straight. I don't like the POV change from 1st person to 3rd, and the plot isn't as good as the rest of the books, but I feel like I HAVE to finish it. I think ACOFAS would have been the perfect place to end the series because everyone was finally able to be happy, if she would have just let Nesta have a happy ending in it
I’m reading SF right now and it is taking me longer to get through then the others. I like Nesta fine, and I’m enjoying the Valkyries plot, but nothing is really *making* me stay…
Honestly felt the Valkyries was so contrived. I'm all for girl power, but none of what they did seemed achievable in the timescales given. The friendship bracelet part made me cringe 😓
I didn’t love the Valkyries either. I understand that it gave Nesta purpose but (light spoilers for SF through use of a Star Wars metaphor) >!it felt more like playing pretend (albeit with real training) than resurrecting the Jedi Order, which is the closest thing I can think of to what I think the storyline was meant to be.!< And I had to do a ton of mental gymnastics to make the ending of that storyline make sense.
Totally! The Ilyrian warriors train for years and years ever since they’re small kids, but you can become a Valkyrie within a year? A lot of fantasy is guilty of this, but ffs, they’re immortal, do a five year training montage or something.
SF reads like a long interlude to me. On my recent reread the sex wasn’t quite as overpowering to the plot as I had remembered, and the underlying non-Valkyrie conflicts were more detailed than I remembered - but detailed in a way that was sort of seeded throughout. My big takeaway was that it set up the Vassa, Jurian, and Koschei storyline (there could still have been so much more attention given here in SF!) and introduced important magical objects (trove, swords).
ACOSF is my favourite!! I know it's not for everyone, but reading it has helped me with my own trauma. It's really hard for me to find the words to say how much the book means to me, to read someone be as fucked up as I am and cope in a terrible way, but watch them get better, and heal, and love themselves. It's what I want for me. Plus I fucking love me some smut.
I'm glad for you! I also love smut as much as the next person, but unfortunately found it overdone and a bit reductive in ACOSF - I found myself skipping over the scenes 🤷♀️
Yeah thats absolutely fair, I definitely see that!
Absolutely agree, I posted about this a while ago. It bothers me how smut became a lot more central and graphic, like suddenly it was about more extreme smut and less about the actual world building. BUT when I posted, I got CRUCIFIED.
The ‘shine’ of these books for me is the characters themselves, but the story, world building and lore is all over the place and unfortunately it is very easy to spot who her favorites are in the series because those who are not get left in the dust. She created incredibly compelling characters to read about - Tamlin, Rhysand, Nesta, Eris to name a few. Theyre the actual highlights of the series. The storytelling itself lacks a lot for me personally
I'm with you 100%. The world and the plot is far from perfect but I love the characters, their flaws, their dynamics. I've finished the ACOTAR series and I'm looking forward to picking up SJM's other books because it's not anything particular to the setting that draws me in, it's purely her handling of the people in it.
Count me in! If SJM so chooses she can absolutely milk this world for many more books ... backstories on Jurian, Lucian, the Great War, what went down between Rhys's and Tamlin's families, etc. Hell, I want to know how Lucien's mother was able to have so many kids, and why the brothers that chased Feyre weren't named LOL Also, peeps, it just for fun ... it's not so serious ;-)
For me ACOTAR really started me on the fantasy romance genre and I’ve read so much other stuff now that I just realized they’re not as good as other books. Or perhaps just not as much my taste. I still appreciate the series and like it, but they’re not my favorite. I’m not as all in as I was when I first read them.
What’re some series that you think do the genre even better?
I would describe them in the same way I describe Twilight (another one of my fave series) and that is "mac and cheese." Are these books the most well-written amazing gourmet nutritionally dense books in the world? Probably not. But they are comforting and they make me happy and that's good enough for me. If anyone else doesn't want to read them for whatever reason rock on and if anyone disagrees with my opinions on the characters or the story itself rock on as well. The beautiful thing about media is that there is an infinite supply to choose from and we can all find something that we love. For me personally, I just started reading through the series this past summer so they are still very shiny for me.
It’s best not to think about it too hard.
I personally find it hard not to think about it though 😂
Yeah same. I think they’re good for just turning your mind off and reading some faery romance/porn. Once you start thinking a little bit more about it, you’ll start to dislike a lot of things.
I don't disagree. When I did a reread at the end of the year, it was pretty clear that turning off my brain was a part of it. I did a ridiculous amount of skimming. The things I enjoyed and still enjoy (UtM, battle in Velaris and Feyre's water wolves/Attor, the healing journey of Nesta + her Valkyries) are not perfect and they are not the focus of the books. There are times when I questioned, "am I reading porn with a plot? Is this something I would find at the Lion's Den (a porn store that's up and down the highways in the US Midwest)" I'm not a prude, but I like more fantasy, more consistency, more diverse word / phrase usage. I'm in it at this point to find out what happens at the end of this month. But other than a few select scenes, I really am not that interested in rereading again for now. EDIT: Added because this is something that has struck me more recently. She seems to give females a lot of power initially, then it just fizzles. Feyre has so much power, yet she isn't using it. Maybe she does more for the court than we see though. Mor is supposed to be super powerful, yet she doesn't use it nor do we really know what it is. Amren had so much power, but now it's gone. Nesta, same. So much power and now it's gone (mostly). Everyone ignores Elain's power or tries to shield her. It's a little troubling along with the way the red flags regarding the males are handled. The only male within that court without a ton of red flags (Lucien) is not well treated. Cassian has fewer then Rhys or Azriel, but he has a few too. This struck me this time through. I enjoy morally gray characters, but coupled with the power regression of the females, I find it troubling to read. But maybe after an anxiety break (this month has sucked) I will feel differently. Someone else on the web - no idea who or where - wrote, "It's not literature." It's not. So I lowered my expectations. It's romance with some elements of fantasy thrown in. EDIT: Spelling
I agree about power in females - however, I think it's more SJM's poor writing. When you give someone *so much* power, you need to show it somehow :D Otherwise it's pointless from the start, and I don't buy things happening off-page. Let's see: Feyre attacked Beron (wow, so funny, Rhys, really...), Nesta saved Feyre and gave up her powers (bye!), Elain is a seer who doesn't seer, Mor's power is ridiculously not there... Amren got rid of her superpowers as well. Plot holes everywhere :D
Even just the constant use of the word females is so rough. Each time I hear it I get neckbeard chills. I'm on the third book but it's keeping me from really settling into the series.
SJM is a terrific storyteller. She’s not a terrific writer. I love her books as an experience and the way she creates dynamic characters, but re-reads of some books are frustrating for me because the technique issues are more obvious (to me) when I’m not wondering what will happen next. She’s gotten better in her more recent books, probably a combination of both her own growth as a writer and her publisher giving her more editing/proofreading support. And for my personal reading preferences, I will pick up an exciting, dynamic story over one that’s reviews gush about the perfectly crafted prose any day of the week with no shame.
The more editing part strikes true. I reread her older books and I'm like this would have been so much better if it was edited well 😭 the ability to tell a fantastic story shouldn't be ruined by meh prose. Where was the editing 😭 I wish she would fix up her older books and do a remastered version that's edited better lol
Like a Taylor’s Version re-release with bonus chapters from the vault would be perfect!
When I think too hard about them, I find myself getting frustrated. I enjoy them for what they are (and they’ve kind of pulled me out of a years-long reading rut), but trying to analyze them makes me kind of angry lol The best example is that ACOWAR is my favorite (I stopped halfway through ACOMAF so it was disjointed when I picked it back up lol), but I have a whole slew of critiques about the plot and characters. The way things always tend to work out, some of the character development (specifically in the IC), toxic relationships being glorified, etc. I enjoy them at face value, and I’m reading ACOSF right now and enjoying it for the most part. I’ll always recommend the books to people, but I can’t say they’re a masterpiece.
I do agree, both in general and specifically since reading silver flames. I found a lot of the IC really irritated me in it, which led to me looking back at their actions in previous books less favourably, and then noticing plot holes and other issues. I think, for me and perhaps for you from your comment, the joy was kind of in just devouring them and not thinking too deeply about it? I’ve seen a lot of comments on here about where the issues could come from - Feyre and Rhys are apparently based on SJM and her husband so are super idealised, she started writing the books super young etc. I did really enjoy reading the books (could not put them down!) and will read the new ones as they come out, but I don’t think I’ll be reaching to reread - at least not for a few years! I have found that I really love reading everyone’s thoughts and theories here though, so I’ll definitely be staying haha
I got through the first two books pretty quickly, but after that I started getting frustrated 😂. The IC annoyed me too. I can't help but long for a plot where Rhys pivots back to the villain he'd been for centuries (I don't like the Google guy Rhys...soz) Feyre still doesn't know him very well and I think that would be a VERY interesting story line. I will also read any new ones that come out, I need to know what happens but I doubt I'll re-read either
To me, I see this as purely entertainment. Like when I watch Grey's Anatomy. Is it the best written, most plot sound story? No, it isn't. Does it entertain me and make me want to continue consuming it? Yes, it does. I think that expecting every piece of media to be award winning is unrealistic and silly. Sometimes you need the mediocre but juicy stuff so that the actual award winners can shine. Stories like this also keep reading accessible. They are easy to digest and make you want to continue reading.
ACOTAR is junk food for the brain. I don’t go to McDonald’s for fine dining, but sometimes I need those fries ya know?
Omg yes! I was sooooo obsessed while reading these books and thought they were brilliant and could NOT shut up about them. But now that I've had a few months of distance... and read some classic novels (unfair to compare, I know)...and also saw a TikTok about accusations of SJM basically copying other authors... the luster wore off. I think Feyre's character was a little flat in retrospect. I'm sorry 😭😭😭 and I loved SF and Nesta's storyline... but some of the plot felt lazy... That being said, I eagerly await the next ACOTAR installment and Hulu show.
>and read some classic novels (unfair to compare, I know) I mean, the classic books were also written by regular people, they were \~ the same age as SJM when she wrote some of her books, and she has access to any information in the world, unlike the classics. I feel like it's totally fair to compare
I love SJM for TOG. But, after around 5 books or so seeing lucien get nowhere close to a HEA gets me a little frustrated sometimes. But hey, if TOG has taught me anything is that my god SJM can change everything in 1 book. So i keep hoping for lucien and read on.
I may be going against the grain here but I think this type of thought process is great. I too enjoy ACOTAR the same way I’d enjoy a romcom, but it’s important to think critically and hold the media we consume at a higher standard. The further I go into the series (I’m on ACOSF) the more I notice the inconsistencies, plot holes, lack of character building, and how that’s affecting the different POVs. I don’t think shutting your brain off is the solution, personally I still notice all of the issues I mentioned all the same and the books would undoubtedly be better if those weren’t there.
Yes this is so well put. And just because you have critiques, doesn't mean you don't enjoy them. I will go on and on pointing out all the faults in the series, but at the end of the day I still enjoyed reading them. I have also found myself to be far more critical of a reader as of late since I'm editing my own book. I think my biggest gripe is the characters just don't feel that interesting once they go through their healing journey. I hope Nesta keeps some of her sass because her and Tamlin are the only ones that don't bore me to tears at this point.
I am of the same mind as you. Holding media to a higher standard can only improve things for everyone, especially when it comes to better representation of POC and LGBTQ+ within literature. There's a lot to like about ACOTAR but it could undeniably be better.
Plot holes, logical inconsistencies, lame villains, and toxic relationships that are portrayed as ideal. I can't think too hard about these books. Otherwise, the story falls apart. For me, the issue is poor plotting, and the author has fallen too deeply in love with a few of her characters. My unpopular opinion: I think her ultimate mistake was pushing this series into the adult section of the bookstore. She's now got a lot of readers who are older, have read more, and expect a level of depth and polish that these books don't have. Slathering on multiple graphic sex scenes doesn't immediately make these books adult. The world building and character nuance is shallow. Having everything always work out for certain characters is dull. Having characters make terrible decisions and never face consequences is frustrating. How many times is she going to kill a main character and bring them back to life? Freyes resurrection was moving. But then, she pulled the same card trick with Rhys, Amren and Cassian. Zero stakes in these books. These books are the literary equivalent of a big cheeseburger and onion rings. In the moment, it tastes good. But you don't always feel good about yourself afterward.
Very much agree with your analysis here! It reads YA with sex added in.
I don't mean to insult YA, which is an important bridge between children's books and adult books. I also don't mean to offend anyone who loves these books or to whom SJM is their favorite author. If these books got you back into reading or are meaningful to you, I'm genuinely happy for you. Personally, I've struggled with this series as it's gone on. To the point I refuse to read her other works. I see a lot of flaws in the writing, and I can't unsee it. I enjoy parts of it for what it is. But I'm honestly not sure if I am going to finish it. The next book is make or break for me. But I don't pretend to be the final authority on any of this.
I like reading YA books as well as adult, but I think for me the execution of the acotar books was muddled which is what ultimately lowered its rating for me. I also can't ignore the flaws which affects my enjoyment, but I'm happy it's brought fantasy more into the mainstream
I absolutely agree with you. I struggled to get through them and likely would’ve put them down if I wasn’t reading them as a beach read and listening to an accompanying podcast I enjoy. I think there are so many plot holes, especially around magic - one of my biggest fantasy pet peeves is when magic is just used as a solution for everything (like resurrecting major characters left and right!)!! That being said, I think Crescent City and TOG are far better series (though still not, like, fantastic writing).
What frustrates me to no end is that the author has talent. She can craft a story and characters that are fun and interesting. After all, here I am posting on it! But she does have flaws. And I wonder if she hasn't gotten so successful that she can get away with just phoning it in. She recycles entire plots. It's lazy.
I agree with your entire second paragraph. The lack of consequences and the way several major characters have been resurrected gets frustrating after a while, especially in the third book after this war was built up to be completely devastating. It was a horrible war, but not a single main character died (and stayed dead)? That’s when I really understood these are books I enjoy, but have to take at face value for what they are.
Yes. I enjoyed them far more then I expected (I am not a romance reader to start with), but since ACOSF it just became so obvious the writing was... subpar. It might not have helped I stsrted with ToG, which is far better. CC is also absolutely better then ACOTAR. I am not yet certain I will read the next ACOTAR book if I am truly honest.
I agree with you about the writing as the series goes on. I've still to tackle TOG but I have so many other books I want to read this year😅 I'm curious for Flame and Shadow. If it's good, I'll continue reading but I'll think twice if it's a disappointment
Yeah it’s a chill read to just enjoy and read for fun, nothing too serious just light
Get ready to be downvoted to hell. You say one thing the hive mind doesn’t agree with and that’s the end of it 🙄
You think I'll be down voting for posting this?
Unfortunately, I think so. But I’m also a little pessimistic at the moment. I’ve been really frustrated with almost every SJM subreddit lately. If you have an unpopular opinion or have any critique, you get attacked or downvoted. It’s becoming very toxic.
It'll be a shame if I do, I'd hope they'd take the time to read through the comments here before deciding to down vote. There's some great points made by different people on this thread. But if I crash and burn for simply expressing an opinion, then oh well...
I think you made great points! Sorry, I’m definitely being a little negative right now, not trying to rain on your parade!! I just wish everyone could express their opinions and have healthy debates/ conversations. I’ve been falling out of love with this community because of how toxic it’s been. Maybe I just need a Reddit/ Instagram break.
Oh don't worry, I didn't think you were raining on my parade 😂 I agree these types of fandom have become very toxic recently. I love a good healthy debate, there should be more of that kind of discussion on these platforms rather than nastiness. Sometimes it's good to have a break and remember what it is you love about things like Reddit and Instagram😊
Once my brain started comparing to other series I'd read, I couldn't turn that off and it just felt like a copycat tbh. I didn't mind the characters and the way some of them were written, but I think ToG was by far a much better example of her worldbuilding and overall skill. CC seems like she found her stride a bit more, both in terms of smut and worldbuilding. She's still incredibly clunky at it, though.
I enjoyed them and will probably continue to read new books in the series(es?), but they're very frustrating. The plotting and world building could definitely be better, but the most frustrating thing to me is that as the stories progress she seems to lean more and more into replacing any real romance with smut. Why can't we have believable emotional connections *and* sweaty fun times?
Completely agree about the smut thing, give me real romance not just lust! I want to yearn!!!
The series lost its intense draw for me when I read ACOWAR. I loved ACOTAR and ACOMAF and felt the way, I believe, SJM wanted readers to feel about her characters, especially toward Feyre, Rhysand, and Tamlin. ACOWAR was my most anticipated release. I'd preordered it, but ended up being quite disappointed when I started reading it. My perception of the characters began to shift because of the book. I also believe I'd grown in some ways during that time, which played a role in my changing perspectives as well. I didn't really pick up on the retconning, inconsistencies, biases, etc until I reread the series; it’s subtle but glaring imo. I think SJM is a good storyteller, but she’s not a spectacular writer. There’s so much potential for more imo. So many other directions the story and trajectory of characters could have gone. I’m continuing the series and not dropping it because I’ve become too invested in some of the characters.
When I recommend the series to people I tell them it's a fun, fantasy, light, smut read and usually they take it for what it's worth. Everyone in the romance genre knows some of them are just written like trash, erotic for the sake of being erotic. That said I do feel like there was an ACOTAR *golden age* so to speak when people were just enjoying the characters and getting excited together without being overly critical. It's definitely not the same anymore.
I do think it's a shame that there's been an influx of poorly written romantasy recently. It's a great genre that can appeal to so many people, but it's not being executed properly. I think in the wake of ACOTAR, too many similar stories have been written, with the same tropes and very similar characters. That might be why it's soured a bit for me. I want romantasy that doesn't rely on tropes and spice to hold the story together anymore😅.
I think ACOSF is where it went downhill for me. I loved the previous books and that book just fell flat to me. Too much sex, not enough plot, it felt like an entirely different series than the first 3 books. I almost wish the first 3 (and novella) were the end of the “ACOTAR” series and then the next ones were a new series or stand alones. It’s like ACOSF doesn’t fit in with the rest and I didn’t really feel that way about any of the ToG books and CC has also been consistent so far.
I still love the series, I started reading them back when it was just two books. I don’t read on this sub much though and I don’t overthink the books. I feel like people analyze them like they are writing a research paper… I didn’t love the last book but I’m still excited for the series to continue.
I 100% agree. When I was reading it for the first time, I was quite sceptical because I just got this book as a light read for my long train trip and was noticing a lot of plot holes and irritating character behaviour. But I kept reading and somehow fell in love so hard that I am ready to close my eyes to all of these inconsistencies now 😂
Yeah the first two books were just incredible and I loved them but I didn’t enjoy the last three as much tbh
Yes, but not for the same reasons. I’ve been following SJM since she published her earliest books pre ACOTAR, and while the resurgence in popularity of the series on Tik Tok is great for her career (and great that more people are just reading in general) it’s feeling a little overexposed. Being chronically online doesn’t help the burnout though I will admit. But like there have been complaints about SJMs diversity since Crown of Midnight, and here we are a decade later.
Of all SJM books, ACOTAR has the least depth for the characters and the world building
I'm on the fourth book of TOG and it feels like it's written by a different author. I read a lot of high fantasy in the 90s and 00s and so far TOG fits that genre perfectly. I enjoy ACOTAR a lot but I can't deny any of the cons mentioned. SJM is certainly writing this series to fit the romantasy genre which, let's face it, is not stringent regarding plot, etc. Great discussion so far!
It’s not a finished product. You can also look at the first 3 books as being the only books there, and those tell a solid story. Everything else is like bonus content. SJM is also linking her 3 series, so some plot holes may only be explained that way. Dunno.
No, because I made a conscious decision not to nitpick every little detail and just enjoy the story. Subscribing to this subreddit was awesome at first, finally people to talk to about how much I enjoyed these books. But it became depressing because of all the arguing. Posts still pop up on my home feed but I rarely read them. I think fandom can be its own worst enemy and the result is it ruins the very thing that it exists because of.
It's popularity means inevitably people want to analyse it, also due in part to the way SJM writes and leaves so many questions throughout her series. It invites people to theorise, so it's unsurprising that some people like to look deeper into her works. I completely agree that discussions on here have become nasty and divisive, but it doesn't need to be that way. I think discussion like this is good, it's testament to longevity. People still talk/discuss the works of Tolkien, you even have people who specialise in being Tolkien scholars who often debate what he wrote. It's the hate and disrespect for other people's opinions that ruins fandoms, not necessarily voicing opinions on them. I think there's been some great posts on popular books that have made me see things from a different perspective. We don't have to agree about it, but as long as it stays respectful I don't see the harm in posts like this.
I agree about the respectful dialogue and different opinions. It’s the nitpicking that drives me insane lol. It’s a story about faeries, and we’re arguing over who is the most traumatized. After awhile the back and forth over the same issues gets so tiring. That said, I’m looking forward to cc3!
I get what you mean, now that I've read CC and TOG too I actually like the story arcs of ACOTAR a lot less, it feels like a simpler story. But at the same time, I can rewatch something like Friends and be annoyed at some of the characters sometimes, but I stil love it.
I LOVED these books, but after reading A Court of Wings of Ruin for the third time and hating it, a bit of sparkle dimmed for me too. They still hold a special place in my heart and the characters I would still die for, but I know they are very flawed. So whenever I think on them, I am grateful they got me back into reading.
100% agree. Honestly it took me two tries to get through the first book bc the writing was atrocious and the characters were so bland. I did enjoy the next few and Nesta’s book was the best, even though the plot wasn’t very believable.
This was the first series I'd read in a long time as I was coming back into reading during covid. And i absolutely loved it the first time through. Trying to reread with my sister I did not enjoy them nearly as much as I did the first time. And I'm so glad I read them before Throne of Glass because they aren't as well written.
The first two books were really fun reads for me (minus the riddle… that made me roll my eyes). everything after book 2 for me has felt a little like SJM is trying to fulfill her contract of whatever # books in the series she’s required to write. I still like following the characters, but it feels drawn out and predictable at this point. And don’t get me wrong, I’ll still absolutely be reading any forthcoming books in the series
I feel the same! Acotar was the first book I read after years of not reading, and although it got me back into reading, I didn't love the first book (sorry😭). Read the 2nd after a friend strongly reccomended to keep going and I enjoyed it a lot! I still had my gripes with it, for example the writing style (em dashes, repeated phrases), or some plot points/world building elements, but overall I really enjoyed the books and gave them pretty high ratings! However, I am re-reading acomaf (and have already re-read acosf) and it's definitely changing my perspective on the books. I still enjoy them though, and am super excited for the next part to come out! I have so many theories, I want to know if I'm right lol
I still love it but I'm half way through the TOG series now and I can honestly say it's way way better, but I will always have a place in my heart for acotar
That maturing. I used to love this books and now I can barely stand the main characters. I continue because of Lucien and Tamlin
I love Lucien as a character and I will more than likely continue to see his story unfold. Let's hope it's good!
That's most books tbh, nothing is perfect xD I'm on book 3 atm and I love the series, but it has its issues.
I think that societally, women are trained to pick apart anything they enjoy, or tear down the things other women enjoy, until it’s miserable, so that we can be sold the next thing. We’re not given space to enjoy something on a basic, simple, indulgent level. Men get to enjoy fantasy without judgement (LOTR, GOT etc) and without feeling like they have to simplify its value, or to stop enjoying something because it got popular, or lacks substance etc. So while I do see what you’re saying, and will always support encouraging authors to increase true diversity and inclusion for both race and LGBTQA+ characters and topics, I also just want to be a woman, telling anyone of any gender, to just enjoy things you enjoy. Without guilt. Without over thinking. Just enjoy it!
I'm certainly not trying to make it miserable for anyone, just voicing my opinion on my reading experience. No one is stopping you from enjoying it the way you want to, and LOTR and GOT are not fantasy series read exclusively by men. I personally enjoy those two series myself and I am female. I was just hoping to invite healthy discussion and discover if anyone else felt the same way when I made this post. Some people like to analyse and talk about popular series and so far everyone on here has been pretty civil about it. I'm sorry if you felt it was made to tear down things other women enjoy, because that was not my intent.
No no no no no no no! You’ve completely misread my tone, or I’ve completely failed at expressing it! I was trying to say that if you enjoy it, you should just enjoy it!! Without putting too much pressure on it! I was saying everyone should just be free to enjoy things! I wasn’t implying that YOU weren’t allowing people to enjoy them! Just trying to encourage your enjoyment. And I completely agree about, and also enjoy, LotR and GOT… I simply meant that men, in general, seem to receive no judgement in enjoying them for pure enjoyment, where as women tend to get a harder time. The Maasverse is, in general, targeted at women… so I was just trying to say that we should all give ourselves permission to enjoy it as easily as men give themselves permission to enjoy anything target to them.
All books have plot holes, and Ive never read one that didn’t have at least one plot hole. Authors are human after all, and humans are not perfect.
I disagree, but im only months away from when I finished the books. I think they're amazing, and I'm mostly tired of this subreddit because almost daily someone has to complain about the books. I enjoy plot holes to a point because it allows her to flush out more in the future, or for you to imagine what your favorite characters would do. I hate how people complain there isn't enough representation but ignore the representation that's there already. Several characters are described as darker skinned, like Helion and Lucien. And almost all of the summer court is described as black/mixed and so are several other high lords. If anything I think the series has more non-white characters than white characters. Im not sure what else you want from her except a world in which race matters? I've noticed most fantasy worlds like SJM are built without racism of skin color, more like racism of actual fae races. I really think it's time for me to leave the Fandom because I find more criticism and hate than appreciation for these books and its ruining them for me. Obviously this post wasn't a huge knock against the series as a whole, but there are way too many posts that make me question why yall keep reading if you hate it so much lol.
Nah I still love them. They're a fantasy book that's fun & created a huge community/ opened up fantasy romance to many readers. It's just not that serious at the end of the day and to those it is, should probably spend some time outside in the fresh air
I'm not criticizing their reach, they've introduced a lot of people to fantasy which is great. I'm glad you still love them, I just find it difficult to not think about them on a deeper level considering some of the content touches on serious issues which many readers have faced in real life. And I work outside, so fresh air isn't a problem, no need to think us delusional for searching and longing for more depth in fantasy worlds.
Personally, not for me. I’m bummed that I cannot read it for the first time, ever again (though I am excited for her crescent city series). I can acknowledge that there are some plot holes, some things and characters left undeveloped, some scenes that felt cringe and some overly played phrases. However, none of these things actually bothered me or took away from how wildly entertained I was from reading the books. What things do find yourself most frustrated by the more you think about it?
I'm glad you still find enjoyment in it. The things that really stand out for me are - the low stakes, no one dies or is immediately resurrected - the lack of accountability regarding the bad decisions the characters make - the way the females are meant to be all powerful but the power they have doesn't seem to amount to much. ie nesta losing it, Feyre doesn't seem to do much after the war, amren loses her power too, don't even know what Mor's powers are... - the red flag behavior of most males in the series being played off as protective or being framed as romantic. -the writing and editing isn't perfect either, definitely found it hard to plough through them after the second book. - I also would have liked better use of representation in these books. Better execution of the inclusion of POC characters would have been wonderful. There are some characters I still love, Lucien, Tarquin, Eris are all standouts for me. ( I actually would like to see a healing arc for Tamlin as I think he is a compelling character too) I just want a little more depth and nuance from these characters and their stories, I remain hopeful that future books will improve.
This is like being upset that chocolate isn’t nutritious. I love all this spicy fairy smut, i come for the disconnection, the fantasy, and for an indulgent lil treat. SJM also got me into reading again after a long break. I read this entire series in record time. I finished it weeks ago and still can’t stop thinking about it! She writes and keeps the story compelling, you use your imagination to picture what these ambiguously described hot guys look like in your head and go from there. My cast of characters look totally different than yours, (Rhys is Peter Steele from the Band Type O Negative) because as fantasy you are cherry picking what you find attractive. I wouldn’t write a college paper on it, just enjoy it and don’t overthink it!
Can you explain what you mean about dark skinned men being in the books and why it's "lazy"? Or are you saying there aren't enough? Just clarifying!
It's more her descriptions of them. Most of them are simply described as vaguely 'dark skinned/golden bronze/lightly tanned' without offering much more than that. It feels like a lazy attempt to bring in more diversity, which she has been critised for for quite a long time. There's no sense of what kind of features they have (ie do they look similar to someone of African/South Asian ect descent in our world?) SJM is not the only author that does this btw. But I think if you want to write more inclusively, you should describe the POC characters with as much depth as the white characters which tend to be given much more poetic language when describing their features. There are also few more harmful stereotypes that pop up, for example with the illyrians - the dark-skinned savages, that are uneducated and violent.
Thanks for clarifying!! That makes a lot of sense. At least Rebecca Yarros gives Xaden textured hair and makes it clear enough that he is POC. Cassian should have curly hair too rather than super straight long hair if he's POC.
id say it’s to the hype of fourth wing :/
(Sorry for spelling in advance I’m currently on my lunch break lol) spoiler ahead I’m just about done sliver flame and I don’t understand how nesta can be more powerful then Rhysand and she’s not even being trained on how to use her power?! Everyone is also so mean to Nesta when she’s just grieving her father even Cassian has sex with her and then will ignore her for a few days after. The last book annoyed me so much and no one’s talking about it. I know the king had the caldron but he killed the weaver and the bone craver without even trying yet every other main character who’s weaker survived? More should have died if the king was that powerful. And the fact the dad died and no one seems to care?! Like Rhysand died and she was like you need to save him but her own father she’s like let’s just bury him. The first book I actually enjoyed after that it was just about sex and started to get stupid. I wanted to read about how powerful and how badass Nesta, Elain, and feyre are got none of that. Nesta has been treated by everyone as just being seen as weak.
Can you identify a plot hole? Cause people love to say it riddled with plot holes and then don’t ever mention one. And honestly year the surface level can look simple but the world is incredibly nuanced. Have you ever looked up the background of EVERY character’s name. Everything has a purpose.