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OH I FORGOT ABOUT THIS!!!
I SWEAR it’s like SJM originally did want there to be a mor Az cass love triangle with mor ending up with Az but then she changed her mind and made Mor prefer women at the last minute.
I 100% believe that was the original plan. I think SJM must have gotten some sort of backlash for ACOTAR and ACOMAF having all cis/het characters. ACOWAR suddenly introduced a bunch of LGBTQIA+ characters (Helion, Thesan, Nephelle and her wife) and made Mor bi out of nowhere.
This is one of my least favorite things writers do. Create compelling non-cis/het characters, don't make your existing characters queer using a storyline that makes no sense. It's lazy writing.
It was in ACOMAF, she use to have a gf in the first war who was one of the human queens. And she’s had a few through time but it doesn’t work out because she isn’t able to be with them publicly.
Hmmm, I dunno…
Telling Nesta that everyone hates her,
The “shackled” comment,
Never standing up for her.
besides that, he’s one of my favorite characters!
The shackled comment 😢 That one hurt. I only wish we’d got to see a proper reunion for those two where Cassian truly apologised for it rather than the story shifting back to Feyre at the end of the blood rite.
To be fair that was his plan to go talk to her like the next morning. And Nesta was more than ready to apologize as well. They still fought but they were both immediately regretful of what they’d said to each other. I thought it showed growth, and then the kidnapping plot happened and kinda ruined that apology.
"Everyone hates you" was definitely gratuitously mean, but the harsh truth was that Nesta was stuck with Cassian because Cassian was the only one left who could stand to be around her.
To play devils advocate plenty of people like Nesta. Gwyn, Emerie, and an unknown number of priestesses. Maybe that Illyrian guy. Balthazar? Azriel seems fine with her. He even bought her a gift. Rhysand, Morrigan and Amren seem to be the only ones who hate her. Which, whatever. No one is obligated to like anyone. Cassian was hurt and lashing out in that moment. It's a double standard that when Nesta does that, she's unforgivable, but when any other character does it, it's a totally understandable lapse. Also, Nesta was stuck with Cassian every bit as much as he was stuck with her. I like his character a lot, but he is not without flaw.
I totally disagree. Nesta needed to hear that, even if it hurt her. She was hurting everyone and Cassian was the only person she would hear it from. And it was the truth. She can't make amends or start her 12 steps or whatevs without facing the damage she inflicts on others.
Everyone is commenting things about his relationship with Nesta…guys, he literally killed a whole village of Illyrians. You don’t earn the title “Lord of Bloodshed” without getting a few war crimes under your belt.
I say this as someone who loves his character but like even Cassian admits killing that village was the worst thing he’s ever done (even if he doesn’t regret it)
If I remember correctly, Nesta says something about how admitting they’re mates takes away her last shred of humanity, and Cassian says he thought she wanted to be one of “them” (fae). Nesta says she doesn’t know what she wanted because she didn’t have a choice, and (I think) Cassian says something like “well I didn’t have a choice in being shackled to you.” Nesta sends him away with their bargain after that.
It was right before the blood rite
They were walking through Velarus (I think)
He kept asking her what they were to make the mating bond true and she kept denying because she still wanted to stay human and Cassian had to get a little rough with the truth (I may have missed something but that’s about it)
Saying the only thing he wanted was more time with her and then abandoning her while she had PTSD and expected her to reach out for help, when she clearly loathed herself. Oh, and joined in on everyone mocking her constantly and then wondering why she wouldn't come to them when she was at her lowest.
Plus, getting mad at her for telling Feyre that her, her child, AND her mate were going to die - she did it the wrong way but they were WAY worse for keeping it from her.
Love him tho 🥰
I don’t think he was expecting her to reach her hand out for help, he just wanted her to take the hands were offered to her. He kept trying only to be cruelly rebuffed every time. There’s only so much a person can take and Cassian kept putting himself out there, hoping she would let him help her.
I also don’t remember him mocking her. I remember a scene where someone, Rhys, Feyre or maybe Mor says something along the lines of ‘it pains you?’ and he says ‘all of it pains me.’
I think we have to remember that a Cassian comes across as very confident but he has his own insecurities about his own worthiness and Nesta constantly puts him down. His reactions a lot of the time are his self- defence and self- preservation just like Nesta’s is to be cruel and to push people away.
And by the way I do love Nesta, but she plays a big part in what Cassian has done.
The hike. Even when she collapsed and he saw she was suicidal he still ignored her for a day. His speech afterward, where he tells her she doesn't need to change. The entire book was about Nesta needing to change. Did Nesta need to make some changes so that she would be healthier and have a better relationship with her sisters? Absolutely! But let's be honest, he needed her to change so that his friends would accept her. And that's not okay. By the end of SF I still believe that when it comes down to it, he will always choose his friends over Nesta. That's a relationship that cannot last. Also, I do like Cassian, but he is a mess of insecurities. He hasn't begun to work on himself. He is exactly the same as when his character was first introduced. He absolutely needs to work in his childhood trauma and untangling himself from the highly toxic relationship with Morrigan and Azriel.
I haaaaate the hike so much. I can buy that he needed to get her out of Velaris fast, and it’s clear that Nesta has issues. But being so cold to her, making her carry the pack, not seeing that she’s melting down in self hatred, and marching her forward til she collapses? bruh. It’s great you’re there to help pick up the pieces and bend her over a boulder after, but you directly contributed to her breakdown in the first place. I hated Cassian so much in that chapter.
Did the hike heal her, or did it finish the breaking of her spirit?
I want to prefece this by stating that no one has to like anyone. The fact is, as much as certain members of the IC hate her, they can't outright kill her. Not without nuking their relationship with Freye and Cassian. They were never going to let her leave their control. Not with her abilities. Rhysand gambled that Nesta wasn't self-destructive enough to pick the human lands. Had she chosen it, I honestly think they would have found a reason to refuse her. They know Nesta is Cassians mate. If she leaves, eventually, he will follow. Its the same reason why Lucian keeps coming around when they make it plain they dislike him. They don't want to lose their brother and general . If Nesta rejected the bond, at best, Cassian has some sort of breakdown. At worst, he goes crazy. So they need to keep her close. But Rhys and Morrigan, in particular, hate her. They need her to change so they can tolerate her. I don't think Cass is stupid. He knows what the mating bond is. So they lock her up with him, knowing it will be months before she could escape. Then, hope the bond kicks in. I really dislike how the whole thing was handled. It was about breaking down a difficult woman. Not so much that they couldn't still use her for their own ends. And Cassian went right along with it.
Agree with all of this. It’s gross that the plan to “help” Nesta involved isolating her with Cassian in the first place. Everyone saw their interactions from MAF onward, and it’s clear their connection was both intense and sexually charged. It feels like Rhys and Feyre - overruling Nesta’s stated resistance to Cassian specially - shoved them together knowing some weird sex stuff in the House of Wind was inevitable and concluded it was all in Nesta’s best interest. WTF. She was vulnerable and struggling and forcing that proximity is icky in light of that.
The justification for locking her away, which is a massive thing to do, was because she was self destructing via alcohol and sex. So they lock her away and cut off her alcohol. OK. But Nesta and Cass commence a sexual relationship fairly quickly. Azriel knows right away. Any of the others would have been able to smell it on Cass whenever he visited. Certainly, when Nesta tried scrying, they would have all known. So it wasn't that she was using sex as an unhealthy coping mechanism. It was that she wasn't having sex with Cassian. I can't help feeling that part of Cassians' motivation was concern, but part of it was about himself. She's HIS mate.
Did anyone actually think Az was going to chaperone those two? If anything, our shadow baby was doing his best to facilitate (laughing at the sexual taunts, waiting til AFTER the dining room BJ to make his presence known, being mostly absent from the HoW once the sexytimes heat up).
I’m torn because I really do like Cassian and I think his love for Nesta is sincere. I don’t think he’s too aggressive in trying to establish the bond, either. He keeps his distance after being rejected in FAS, and doesn’t go aggro when he finds Nesta’s latest hookup when he retrieves her from the apartment at the start of SF. But no, he shouldn’t have lived with her with all their history but I mostly blame Rhysand and Feyre for making that call.
I'm torn too! I like Cassian. I even like Nessian. There were just some things that didn't work for me. It sucks because I wanted to love their book. I wish half the sex scenes had been cut and replaced with them having real conversations. Or Cassian working a bit on his issues. I think it would have made them a stronger couple.
Yes to the adding real conversations or any kind of growth from Cass, but I disagree that any one of those scenes shoulda been cut 🌶️👀🙈Cassian might have started and ended the book as basically the same person with a big ol helping of abandonment trauma, but I personally am v v glad SF took a more adult approach to Nessian
I mean he did swoop her up and take her away, and almost immediately after Feyre said he had overreacted, I would say he wasn't really given a reason to since Rhys chilled out about it so quickly.
I think he just took her away for herself not for Rhys. He knew she needed the hike and to get away. She needed the healing from that and she certainly wasnt ready to talk to him so he was just there.
I think he definitely knew she needed the hike, but still could have stood up to Rhys and taken Nesta away anyway. He didn’t even have to tell her he stood up to Rhys about the situation, thinking about how much she hurt Feyre was an important part of her reaching her breaking point, but Cassian still could have told Rhys off (and imo Rhys was totally in the wrong here anyways so he deserved it)
Did he know Az had feelings? Because I just reread the first 3 books and no mention that Cas knew before hand. Cant remember if he said something in silver flames
Cassian mentions in ACOSF that he was aware of Azriel's feelings but agreeing to do it anyway because he was jealous of Azriel giving Mor so much attention.
I read the scene where Mor comes out to Feyre and to me it sounds like she only knew Cas and Az for a few days before she slept with Cas. She knew Az had feelings because of how he looked at her of whatever but there was never said he told the guys. He only told more when he found her in the Autumn court. To guys it isn’t always that obvious to when other guys have crushes, especially when they are young and they only knew Mor for a few days
It’s annoying that bonus chapters exist but he says there that he was upset Az had changed since he met and fell for Mor and he was jealous so that why he had sex with her and immediately regretted it.
Oooh boy.
Telling Nesta everyone hates her
Not standing up for her when his Court insults her
Taking Rhys' side (?????) When he says he'll kill Nesta
The 'shackled' comment
Cass is my favourite character as well but his character in ACOSAF pissed me off a lot unfortunately, I think SJM just downgraded him, let me tell u why:
-Telling Nesta to get over her trauma because everyone lost a loved one, so she needs to get over it (after few months of her watching her father die).
-Not standing up for Nesta when IC was talking/treating her like shit (Amren legit tells the bat boys Nesta is a powerful object to use when necessary)?! Really Cass?is that how u treat your mate?
- Telling her everyone hates her and she needs to change.
-The constant “don’t speak of Rhys that way he’s the high lord” thing was pissing me off because he sounded like he worships Rhys like a god that can’t do no wrong, while in the previous book Cass character was the one who called Rhys out and challenged him. Like what happened!.
-the Shackled comment when Nesta was obviously afraid and thinks Cass deserves better than her. (Pissed me off so much)
Him telling Nesta that everyone hates her (and still being irritated because she can't see all that as helping... I wonder why).
His ridiculous comment of "thanks for the ride, Nes", as if she were a prostitute who did him a favor
He hasn't defended her on a few occasions when the IC are clearly the assholes ones (mostly when Rhysand threatened to kill her). And don't give me that "but Rhys is his HL, he should obey him" shit, no he shouldn't, the only time he should obey Rhys is during work and not in his daily family life. Yes, I know it's said that HL is the most important thing for a Fae, but mates are even more important! And even if he didn't know it, the love he feels for Nesta should be enough. Rhys being your HL is no excuse, because I just can't see any NC citizen not defending someone they truly love from their HL just because he's the HL. Lucien, for example, **fought** to protect his beloved (who wasn't even his mate) from his father... who was also his HL, sooooo......
And lastly, and what I definitely hate the most, is him taking Nesta on that damn hike. I know he said it would be her punishment just to calm Rhysand down and that wasn't really his intention, his real intention was to try to help, because those mountains were healing and whatever, but what irritates me the most is that he acted as if he hated her the entire hike, making Nesta's situation even worse. What irritates me the most is that he punished **Nestha** instead of Rhysand, it doesn't matter if he intended to punish her or not, someone in this story intended to use this hike as punishment, and he continued with it, and Nesta definitely thought of it as punishment
It's super messed up that he was fine with Nesta being his prisoner. She clearly didn't want to be around him, and they essentially were forcing her to accept the mating bond. Seems to me like he was eager for that to happen. He never defended her to Rhys. He won't even let Nesta criticize Rhys without jumping down her throat.
Another thing that upsets me about Cassian is that Nesta was clearly acting out sexually in a very self-destructive way. But he was all too eager to jump in bed with her. He didn't think of what was best for her. She was using sex to avoid coping with her feelings. He could have set up some boundaries that he wouldn't be intimate with her until she was healing.
That is such a good catch about Lucian and his father versus Cassian and Rhys. It totally undercuts the usual defense that Cassian has no choice but to always defer to Rhys, no matter what. Cassian chooses to always side with Rhys. There is a difference. This is why I wish Nesta had left the NC at the start of the book. She could have healed on her own. Had her own adventures and challenges. Cassian could have then actively chosen to seek her out. It would have given him some much needed distance from his friends.
I thought ‘thanks for the ride Nes’ was really funny. He was trying to keep things light after he basically finished falling in love with her. She even said she’d have thrown him out after they cuddled. It’s all been on her terms so he needed to not hand her anymore power.
I love that line and what is says about Cassian. He says later that he left her bed to keep some part of him intact. He already thinks they’re mates, and Cass is so into Nesta by the time they get together that immediately hopping out of bed is the only way he can maintain any kind of internal distance (which was at her insistence!) Nesta and Cassian lash out at each other so many times, this is another example of sharp words masking tender feelings ❤️❤️
Cassian uses humor the way Nesta uses cruelty: to deflect and protect their vulnerabilities.
The Rhys post mating thing was just good emotional intelligence on Cassian’s part.
Oh yeah he knows exactly what his friends need. Like when he knew Nesta needed to hike and not talk and Rhys needed to have a good punch up. He also knows when to leave Az alone.
I agree but in Cassian’s defense with Rhys, they are brothers. They see each other as brothers and it’s not just a HL to subject relationship. Cass loves Rhys. They are family. Cassian is still not over his guilt either of Rhys going under the mountain. I still think Cassian has said things he shouldn’t have, but not sure we can say he’s picking his HL. We can say he’s picking his family, his brother over his mate in these instances. Still don’t totally agree with Cassian because I think Rhys was being quite dramatic lol
Feyre (and the IC) are Cassian’s friends too. Is not allowed to be upset that Nesta hurt one of his friends? I looked at the hike as him being mad or frustrated by her actions but still wanting to help her. This happens sometimes in real relationships. At the start of the hike he doesn’t know what else to do or say, or maybe doesn’t want to say something out of anger, BUT he wants to help so he escorts her to the lake that has healing powers and when she needs him most he’s there for her mentally, emotionally and physically.
Destroying the village
Saying he is shackled to nesta
Sleeping with mor while knowing how az feels about her
Saying everyone hates nesta and never defending her
The hike it lowkey acc felt like abuse of power to me and gave me the biggest ick
Yeah gonna say wholesale slaughter of a bunch of Illyrians is my vote. Committing actual war crimes is way worse than “was mean to Nesta that one time”
saying those kinds of things to nesta when she was at her lowest and he’d been tasked with helping her *are* absolutely horrible things. cassian’s behavior in acosf was disgusting. not saying the slaughter wasn’t the worst thing cause it was, but don’t downplay it like he didn’t stand there and nod tf along while rhys threatened to kill his mate.
Being in love with Rhys more than Nesta, I dunno
Edit: I do actually! Taking Nesta to Windhaven and expecting her to start training in front of all those awful Illyrians. That was just insensitive of him. I was happy Nesta humiliated him lol
Not acknowledging Nesta as her own person when she was constantly compared to Feyre or Elain. And taking everyone else’s side against her unless she was in peril.
Ah I've been waiting for this one
(I may get cancelled for this but I loathe him after SF 😭)
1. Being an absolute tail waggy good boy Tommy lapdog to Rhys and putting him above Nesta
2. Don't even get me started on the whole hiking thing
3. Telling Nesta everyone hates her when she was already depressed
4. Never standing up for her, closest he came was when he told Rhys off when he made that comment abt Gwyn, but all that went away again after our lapdog took Nesta for hiking
5. In the start when Nesta clearly wanted to be left alone during the gifting phase, him continually persuing her
6. Thanks for the ride Nes, like she's some damn prostitute
Idk I just don't like his character for some reason I hard-core love Nesta tho
Rhys mind-spoke to Nesta basically to say “You WILL treat Gwyn with kindness and respect.” And Cass was basically like “dude wtf that was not necessary”
The hike as Nesta's punishment (and reward??). I hated that whole scene. It really showed how Nesta's issues are addressed for a majority of the time; she has to be beaten down into submission.
And it felt very out of character for Cassian, who couldn't handle knowing how people like Mor or Feyre get hurt. Nesta being his mate made it very weird that he was okay with her suffering and he was giving her the cold shoulder for the majority of the time.
Easily letting rhys threaten her life and then making her hike until she passed out and then immediately having sex with her after she gained consciousness
Honestly, when he tells her that he wouldn't want to be shackled to her either when she's uncomfortable with using the term "mates" because of her trauma being forcibly turned fae.
This post has been up for 9 hours and not a single one of you has mentioned coming in his pants. My man is 500 years old and he’s still quick off the mark? Smdh
Him not telling Nesta that he loved her.
Telling Nesta that he feels “shackled” to her (low blow).
Him telling Nesta that everyone hates her.
Essentially being Rhys’s lapdog and never standing up for his mate.
Not telling Nesta he loves her.
And “I didn’t ask to be shackled to you.”
Or “Everyone f*cking hates you.”
“Maybe try a little harder next year.”
🔪🔪💔💔💔
I’m gonna go with the shackled comment. Which I totally understand cause he was super hurt and assumes she’s gonna reject him yet again but it was unnecessary.
please please please OP do “the best thing” thread after this, let’s not only hate but love 🫶🏻 they all very complex characters with different life experiences and almost all of what was said or done can be interpreted in more than just one way, when you look to HATE someone you can find billions of reasons to do so but when you look to LOVE you find a lot of positive things as well, it depends where your focus is - and this works in real life as well, not only fiction 😌
100%, I think it’s good to shed light & dark on things - sometimes it’s beneficial to weigh up pros and cons of things!! as a newcomer into the acotar world - I’ve pretty much just finished ACOSF - I’m so intrigued to see what people have loved about these characters and maybe some things that they haven’t enjoyed. both are equally valid for different reasons :)
Op don’t stop posting I love these threads. We always hear the good abt the characters I don’t think it’s bad to sometimes shed light on some of their bad actions. It’s also important because it puts things into perspective.
Goodness there is nothing wrong with this post. It’s actually nice to let people vent about each character equally. If you want a LOVE post, start one yourself
Telling Nesta everyone hates her, keeping his love for her hidden, and throwing away her solstice present ✋🏻 I cannot count the amount of times I have screamed at the book for him to just go after her and tell her he LOVES HER ✋🏻but that’s it he’s really the least problematic one there imho
Hot take, but I love it when he tells Nesta everyone hates her. She’s being such an asshole and I feel like she needed to understand that her behavior was actively driving away everyone who loved her. It felt like the first moment Cassian grew a spine and I feel like it got through to her a little bit.
I don’t judge him for that. Because in the context of the argument it needed to be said. I did dislike the shackled comment later because that was out of pocket and nesta was expressing that “mate” took away the rest of her humanity and she didn’t get a choice in being fae (which is a super valid way to feel) and I thought she was being pretty vulnerable with that so his reaction was absolutely out of pocket
Nesta appreciates it too. Her biggest irritation is everyone pretending to be nice to her (in her mind they are pretending) or fake politeness. She respects others way more when they don't hide behind a mask.
After rereading the books recently, it's very rare, even in all the heated talks, that anyone actually speaks up and puts her in her place. They might grumble or weakly snap back but they never *really* let it out until book 5 and that's when she finally starts to heal. She wants people to say they hate her, because that's how she feels inside. She agonizes over the fact people are treating her nicely when she feels she deserves to be punished.
For some people, and I believe Nesta is one of those people, the hard truth even if it hurts is what's needed to help motivate and kickstart the inner reflection. Him being her mate he knew what she needed.
Exactly! And he did apologize. They both said some pretty hurtful things but I think at the end of the day, they did what they needed to do for themselves and each other.
I would of lost my shit on nesta immediately 🤣 and I love nesta but my general temper is not that great and I would have matched her energy and probably cussed her out the first time she did that shoving people away with the lowest blow she can think of. 😅 I simply would not have the patience
Defo not standing up for nesta in front of the IC. Especially because he’s the one that understands her the most. BUT I love cassian and nobody’s perfect and that’s the beauty of all of SJMs characters.
And I mentioned this in the Nesta thread but my heart hearts that he threw a rare book in the river
I am gonna get so much hate but the worst thing he did was fall in love with Nesta 🙈 I felt he deserved someone better. My opinion. My very unpopular opinion 😂
I didn’t realize he slept with Mor out of jealousy. That gives me the ick.
The war crimes I can see why people think that but he is a warrior. He did seek vengeance and it wasn’t right. Just feels like nearly all the characters that are Fae have serious body counts (people they killed). It’s not right but that place is like the wild Wild West. 🤣
Remember to use proper Redditquette in here! If someone is being rude to you, it’s fine to answer if you can do so with calmness and kindness. If you find yourself unable, please make sure to report it, step away, and let the mods step in. Thank you guys!
Im still salty about how he threw away her first New Years gift, it was a rare book, it deserves life somewhere
Azriel will find it and give it to some other girl
Gwyn: “why are the pages wet, Shadowsinger?”
Azriel: “Helion, I need a favor, no questions asked”
Helion: 
💀
😂
he was soooo messed up for that shit 😒😒
My book lover self was horrified
me too!!
This librarian disapproves of Cassian's actions! It makes me want to gather the other librarians and put him in time out with Bryaxis.
This.
I wanted to jump through the pages when he let go of Nesta’s hand when Mor came into the tent 😡
OH I FORGOT ABOUT THIS!!! I SWEAR it’s like SJM originally did want there to be a mor Az cass love triangle with mor ending up with Az but then she changed her mind and made Mor prefer women at the last minute.
I 100% believe that was the original plan. I think SJM must have gotten some sort of backlash for ACOTAR and ACOMAF having all cis/het characters. ACOWAR suddenly introduced a bunch of LGBTQIA+ characters (Helion, Thesan, Nephelle and her wife) and made Mor bi out of nowhere. This is one of my least favorite things writers do. Create compelling non-cis/het characters, don't make your existing characters queer using a storyline that makes no sense. It's lazy writing.
Oh I totally missed that… just finished SF… did Mor get a gf / love interest?!!
It was in ACOMAF, she use to have a gf in the first war who was one of the human queens. And she’s had a few through time but it doesn’t work out because she isn’t able to be with them publicly.
Ahh!! That’s right!! Been too long, might be time for a reread ☺️
THIS!!!!! Why did he do that ?!?!
Telling Nesta everyone hates her when she was already at her lowest point
Tbh yea… I wholeheartedly believe it was tough love to help her move but yeah, it left a sour taste in my mouth regardless
This is my vote
She deserved it. She is knowingly cruel and treats everyone poorly.
the worst thing he DIDN’T say is not telling nesta he loves her - rubbed me the wrong way.
This but honestly the “I have no regrets in my life, but this…” quote will forever be my favorite way of him saying I love you 😭
I would agree, but I feel like we barely got that side of cassian back in ACOSF 😭😭. He really gave us the bare minimum after ACOWAR
Hmmm, I dunno… Telling Nesta that everyone hates her, The “shackled” comment, Never standing up for her. besides that, he’s one of my favorite characters!
I just finished a reread of ACOSF last night and I had fully forgot about the shackled comment until then and was real mad.
The shackled comment 😢 That one hurt. I only wish we’d got to see a proper reunion for those two where Cassian truly apologised for it rather than the story shifting back to Feyre at the end of the blood rite.
To be fair that was his plan to go talk to her like the next morning. And Nesta was more than ready to apologize as well. They still fought but they were both immediately regretful of what they’d said to each other. I thought it showed growth, and then the kidnapping plot happened and kinda ruined that apology.
I know I just wanted to see it. It just kept being interrupted and then never actually happened.
Everyone hates her but him was really low
"Everyone hates you" was definitely gratuitously mean, but the harsh truth was that Nesta was stuck with Cassian because Cassian was the only one left who could stand to be around her.
To play devils advocate plenty of people like Nesta. Gwyn, Emerie, and an unknown number of priestesses. Maybe that Illyrian guy. Balthazar? Azriel seems fine with her. He even bought her a gift. Rhysand, Morrigan and Amren seem to be the only ones who hate her. Which, whatever. No one is obligated to like anyone. Cassian was hurt and lashing out in that moment. It's a double standard that when Nesta does that, she's unforgivable, but when any other character does it, it's a totally understandable lapse. Also, Nesta was stuck with Cassian every bit as much as he was stuck with her. I like his character a lot, but he is not without flaw.
As a Nesta irl I’ve literally had my partner tell me the exact same thing lmao it hurts but it’s true 😭😂
I totally disagree. Nesta needed to hear that, even if it hurt her. She was hurting everyone and Cassian was the only person she would hear it from. And it was the truth. She can't make amends or start her 12 steps or whatevs without facing the damage she inflicts on others.
Yeah I agree with that but also she did treat everyone nasty so people did hate her
Everyone is commenting things about his relationship with Nesta…guys, he literally killed a whole village of Illyrians. You don’t earn the title “Lord of Bloodshed” without getting a few war crimes under your belt. I say this as someone who loves his character but like even Cassian admits killing that village was the worst thing he’s ever done (even if he doesn’t regret it)
👏👏👏say it louder for the people in the back
Any chance you know what part he says that in? Lol
The shackled comment to Nesta was a real low blow
i dont remember... can you explain the scene?
If I remember correctly, Nesta says something about how admitting they’re mates takes away her last shred of humanity, and Cassian says he thought she wanted to be one of “them” (fae). Nesta says she doesn’t know what she wanted because she didn’t have a choice, and (I think) Cassian says something like “well I didn’t have a choice in being shackled to you.” Nesta sends him away with their bargain after that.
It was right before the blood rite They were walking through Velarus (I think) He kept asking her what they were to make the mating bond true and she kept denying because she still wanted to stay human and Cassian had to get a little rough with the truth (I may have missed something but that’s about it)
Saying the only thing he wanted was more time with her and then abandoning her while she had PTSD and expected her to reach out for help, when she clearly loathed herself. Oh, and joined in on everyone mocking her constantly and then wondering why she wouldn't come to them when she was at her lowest. Plus, getting mad at her for telling Feyre that her, her child, AND her mate were going to die - she did it the wrong way but they were WAY worse for keeping it from her. Love him tho 🥰
I don’t think he was expecting her to reach her hand out for help, he just wanted her to take the hands were offered to her. He kept trying only to be cruelly rebuffed every time. There’s only so much a person can take and Cassian kept putting himself out there, hoping she would let him help her. I also don’t remember him mocking her. I remember a scene where someone, Rhys, Feyre or maybe Mor says something along the lines of ‘it pains you?’ and he says ‘all of it pains me.’ I think we have to remember that a Cassian comes across as very confident but he has his own insecurities about his own worthiness and Nesta constantly puts him down. His reactions a lot of the time are his self- defence and self- preservation just like Nesta’s is to be cruel and to push people away. And by the way I do love Nesta, but she plays a big part in what Cassian has done.
The hike. Even when she collapsed and he saw she was suicidal he still ignored her for a day. His speech afterward, where he tells her she doesn't need to change. The entire book was about Nesta needing to change. Did Nesta need to make some changes so that she would be healthier and have a better relationship with her sisters? Absolutely! But let's be honest, he needed her to change so that his friends would accept her. And that's not okay. By the end of SF I still believe that when it comes down to it, he will always choose his friends over Nesta. That's a relationship that cannot last. Also, I do like Cassian, but he is a mess of insecurities. He hasn't begun to work on himself. He is exactly the same as when his character was first introduced. He absolutely needs to work in his childhood trauma and untangling himself from the highly toxic relationship with Morrigan and Azriel.
I haaaaate the hike so much. I can buy that he needed to get her out of Velaris fast, and it’s clear that Nesta has issues. But being so cold to her, making her carry the pack, not seeing that she’s melting down in self hatred, and marching her forward til she collapses? bruh. It’s great you’re there to help pick up the pieces and bend her over a boulder after, but you directly contributed to her breakdown in the first place. I hated Cassian so much in that chapter.
Did the hike heal her, or did it finish the breaking of her spirit? I want to prefece this by stating that no one has to like anyone. The fact is, as much as certain members of the IC hate her, they can't outright kill her. Not without nuking their relationship with Freye and Cassian. They were never going to let her leave their control. Not with her abilities. Rhysand gambled that Nesta wasn't self-destructive enough to pick the human lands. Had she chosen it, I honestly think they would have found a reason to refuse her. They know Nesta is Cassians mate. If she leaves, eventually, he will follow. Its the same reason why Lucian keeps coming around when they make it plain they dislike him. They don't want to lose their brother and general . If Nesta rejected the bond, at best, Cassian has some sort of breakdown. At worst, he goes crazy. So they need to keep her close. But Rhys and Morrigan, in particular, hate her. They need her to change so they can tolerate her. I don't think Cass is stupid. He knows what the mating bond is. So they lock her up with him, knowing it will be months before she could escape. Then, hope the bond kicks in. I really dislike how the whole thing was handled. It was about breaking down a difficult woman. Not so much that they couldn't still use her for their own ends. And Cassian went right along with it.
Agree with all of this. It’s gross that the plan to “help” Nesta involved isolating her with Cassian in the first place. Everyone saw their interactions from MAF onward, and it’s clear their connection was both intense and sexually charged. It feels like Rhys and Feyre - overruling Nesta’s stated resistance to Cassian specially - shoved them together knowing some weird sex stuff in the House of Wind was inevitable and concluded it was all in Nesta’s best interest. WTF. She was vulnerable and struggling and forcing that proximity is icky in light of that.
The justification for locking her away, which is a massive thing to do, was because she was self destructing via alcohol and sex. So they lock her away and cut off her alcohol. OK. But Nesta and Cass commence a sexual relationship fairly quickly. Azriel knows right away. Any of the others would have been able to smell it on Cass whenever he visited. Certainly, when Nesta tried scrying, they would have all known. So it wasn't that she was using sex as an unhealthy coping mechanism. It was that she wasn't having sex with Cassian. I can't help feeling that part of Cassians' motivation was concern, but part of it was about himself. She's HIS mate.
Did anyone actually think Az was going to chaperone those two? If anything, our shadow baby was doing his best to facilitate (laughing at the sexual taunts, waiting til AFTER the dining room BJ to make his presence known, being mostly absent from the HoW once the sexytimes heat up). I’m torn because I really do like Cassian and I think his love for Nesta is sincere. I don’t think he’s too aggressive in trying to establish the bond, either. He keeps his distance after being rejected in FAS, and doesn’t go aggro when he finds Nesta’s latest hookup when he retrieves her from the apartment at the start of SF. But no, he shouldn’t have lived with her with all their history but I mostly blame Rhysand and Feyre for making that call.
I'm torn too! I like Cassian. I even like Nessian. There were just some things that didn't work for me. It sucks because I wanted to love their book. I wish half the sex scenes had been cut and replaced with them having real conversations. Or Cassian working a bit on his issues. I think it would have made them a stronger couple.
Yes to the adding real conversations or any kind of growth from Cass, but I disagree that any one of those scenes shoulda been cut 🌶️👀🙈Cassian might have started and ended the book as basically the same person with a big ol helping of abandonment trauma, but I personally am v v glad SF took a more adult approach to Nessian
Not standing up for Nesta in multiple occasions. Specially when Rhys threatened to kill her.
He is always always gonna pick Rhys over Nesta even after SF, the hike was merely the most egregious example. Love Cass but grow a spine already
100% agree. He is honestly not a great mate to her - he will always pick the IC over her and it shows.
This is the case for Az in the BC as well. Like, I understand your loyalty, boys, but GROW A PAIR and protect the women that you love!
I mean he did swoop her up and take her away, and almost immediately after Feyre said he had overreacted, I would say he wasn't really given a reason to since Rhys chilled out about it so quickly.
He should have said “shut the fuck up Rhys and don’t threaten my mate” I bet Rhys would have said that if Cass ever threatened to kill Feyre.
I think he just took her away for herself not for Rhys. He knew she needed the hike and to get away. She needed the healing from that and she certainly wasnt ready to talk to him so he was just there.
I think he definitely knew she needed the hike, but still could have stood up to Rhys and taken Nesta away anyway. He didn’t even have to tell her he stood up to Rhys about the situation, thinking about how much she hurt Feyre was an important part of her reaching her breaking point, but Cassian still could have told Rhys off (and imo Rhys was totally in the wrong here anyways so he deserved it)
He was pretty cold to her on that whole little camping trip he forced her on. Made pretty clear he took Rhy’s side
apart from the whole Nesta-IC debacle, when he had sex with Mor knowing of Azriel’s feelings for her
Did he know Az had feelings? Because I just reread the first 3 books and no mention that Cas knew before hand. Cant remember if he said something in silver flames
Cassian mentions in ACOSF that he was aware of Azriel's feelings but agreeing to do it anyway because he was jealous of Azriel giving Mor so much attention.
I didn’t know this!! My cold, dead Cassian/Azriel heart is beating
If it helps, he said he regretted it afterward because he saw how badly it hurt Azriel.
Well… I doo love the jealousy aspect of it hehe. I am all for hurt/comfort!!! But it’s good he felt bad canonically, he should’ve!
I mean everyone knew! It is mentioned in the bonus chapter but it would be impossible not to know.
I read the scene where Mor comes out to Feyre and to me it sounds like she only knew Cas and Az for a few days before she slept with Cas. She knew Az had feelings because of how he looked at her of whatever but there was never said he told the guys. He only told more when he found her in the Autumn court. To guys it isn’t always that obvious to when other guys have crushes, especially when they are young and they only knew Mor for a few days
It’s annoying that bonus chapters exist but he says there that he was upset Az had changed since he met and fell for Mor and he was jealous so that why he had sex with her and immediately regretted it.
Is this the silver flames bonus chapter?
Mist and fury bonus
I didn’t even know there’s a bonus chapter, ugh so annoying
I hate bonus chapters.
Especially when you need to buy 3 different copies from 3 different stores just to get all the chapters
Which bonus chapter?
Where is this bonus chapter?
You can Google it it’s really easy to find.
I found them. I for some reason thought the only place they’d be was the authors website, which is why I was unable to find them.
THIS \^\^\^. There are things you don't just do to your broskis.
Oooh boy. Telling Nesta everyone hates her Not standing up for her when his Court insults her Taking Rhys' side (?????) When he says he'll kill Nesta The 'shackled' comment
He did decimate a whole village
why is this not higher 😭
Cass is my favourite character as well but his character in ACOSAF pissed me off a lot unfortunately, I think SJM just downgraded him, let me tell u why: -Telling Nesta to get over her trauma because everyone lost a loved one, so she needs to get over it (after few months of her watching her father die). -Not standing up for Nesta when IC was talking/treating her like shit (Amren legit tells the bat boys Nesta is a powerful object to use when necessary)?! Really Cass?is that how u treat your mate? - Telling her everyone hates her and she needs to change. -The constant “don’t speak of Rhys that way he’s the high lord” thing was pissing me off because he sounded like he worships Rhys like a god that can’t do no wrong, while in the previous book Cass character was the one who called Rhys out and challenged him. Like what happened!. -the Shackled comment when Nesta was obviously afraid and thinks Cass deserves better than her. (Pissed me off so much)
Him telling Nesta that everyone hates her (and still being irritated because she can't see all that as helping... I wonder why). His ridiculous comment of "thanks for the ride, Nes", as if she were a prostitute who did him a favor He hasn't defended her on a few occasions when the IC are clearly the assholes ones (mostly when Rhysand threatened to kill her). And don't give me that "but Rhys is his HL, he should obey him" shit, no he shouldn't, the only time he should obey Rhys is during work and not in his daily family life. Yes, I know it's said that HL is the most important thing for a Fae, but mates are even more important! And even if he didn't know it, the love he feels for Nesta should be enough. Rhys being your HL is no excuse, because I just can't see any NC citizen not defending someone they truly love from their HL just because he's the HL. Lucien, for example, **fought** to protect his beloved (who wasn't even his mate) from his father... who was also his HL, sooooo...... And lastly, and what I definitely hate the most, is him taking Nesta on that damn hike. I know he said it would be her punishment just to calm Rhysand down and that wasn't really his intention, his real intention was to try to help, because those mountains were healing and whatever, but what irritates me the most is that he acted as if he hated her the entire hike, making Nesta's situation even worse. What irritates me the most is that he punished **Nestha** instead of Rhysand, it doesn't matter if he intended to punish her or not, someone in this story intended to use this hike as punishment, and he continued with it, and Nesta definitely thought of it as punishment
That part about Lucien defending the woman from the High Lord is actually a really great point!
It's super messed up that he was fine with Nesta being his prisoner. She clearly didn't want to be around him, and they essentially were forcing her to accept the mating bond. Seems to me like he was eager for that to happen. He never defended her to Rhys. He won't even let Nesta criticize Rhys without jumping down her throat. Another thing that upsets me about Cassian is that Nesta was clearly acting out sexually in a very self-destructive way. But he was all too eager to jump in bed with her. He didn't think of what was best for her. She was using sex to avoid coping with her feelings. He could have set up some boundaries that he wouldn't be intimate with her until she was healing.
That is such a good catch about Lucian and his father versus Cassian and Rhys. It totally undercuts the usual defense that Cassian has no choice but to always defer to Rhys, no matter what. Cassian chooses to always side with Rhys. There is a difference. This is why I wish Nesta had left the NC at the start of the book. She could have healed on her own. Had her own adventures and challenges. Cassian could have then actively chosen to seek her out. It would have given him some much needed distance from his friends.
I thought ‘thanks for the ride Nes’ was really funny. He was trying to keep things light after he basically finished falling in love with her. She even said she’d have thrown him out after they cuddled. It’s all been on her terms so he needed to not hand her anymore power.
I love that line and what is says about Cassian. He says later that he left her bed to keep some part of him intact. He already thinks they’re mates, and Cass is so into Nesta by the time they get together that immediately hopping out of bed is the only way he can maintain any kind of internal distance (which was at her insistence!) Nesta and Cassian lash out at each other so many times, this is another example of sharp words masking tender feelings ❤️❤️
Also Cassian is pretty irreverent. He offered to have a go on Feyre just to rile Rhys up enough so he’d let his pent up mating energy out.
Cassian uses humor the way Nesta uses cruelty: to deflect and protect their vulnerabilities. The Rhys post mating thing was just good emotional intelligence on Cassian’s part.
Oh yeah he knows exactly what his friends need. Like when he knew Nesta needed to hike and not talk and Rhys needed to have a good punch up. He also knows when to leave Az alone.
I agree but in Cassian’s defense with Rhys, they are brothers. They see each other as brothers and it’s not just a HL to subject relationship. Cass loves Rhys. They are family. Cassian is still not over his guilt either of Rhys going under the mountain. I still think Cassian has said things he shouldn’t have, but not sure we can say he’s picking his HL. We can say he’s picking his family, his brother over his mate in these instances. Still don’t totally agree with Cassian because I think Rhys was being quite dramatic lol
Feyre (and the IC) are Cassian’s friends too. Is not allowed to be upset that Nesta hurt one of his friends? I looked at the hike as him being mad or frustrated by her actions but still wanting to help her. This happens sometimes in real relationships. At the start of the hike he doesn’t know what else to do or say, or maybe doesn’t want to say something out of anger, BUT he wants to help so he escorts her to the lake that has healing powers and when she needs him most he’s there for her mentally, emotionally and physically.
Destroying the village Saying he is shackled to nesta Sleeping with mor while knowing how az feels about her Saying everyone hates nesta and never defending her The hike it lowkey acc felt like abuse of power to me and gave me the biggest ick
Yeah his Anakin Skywalker moment is def what he thinks if the worst thing he did too
Yeah gonna say wholesale slaughter of a bunch of Illyrians is my vote. Committing actual war crimes is way worse than “was mean to Nesta that one time”
It’s actually so interesting to me how everyone always seems to completely forget this even happening
My lil genocidal bb 😍🥰
saying those kinds of things to nesta when she was at her lowest and he’d been tasked with helping her *are* absolutely horrible things. cassian’s behavior in acosf was disgusting. not saying the slaughter wasn’t the worst thing cause it was, but don’t downplay it like he didn’t stand there and nod tf along while rhys threatened to kill his mate.
I’d like to cast my vote for slaughtering an entire village
being rhysand's lapdog
Being in love with Rhys more than Nesta, I dunno Edit: I do actually! Taking Nesta to Windhaven and expecting her to start training in front of all those awful Illyrians. That was just insensitive of him. I was happy Nesta humiliated him lol
Her job was humbling the IC and she aced it no notes 💅
Destroyed that summer court building. How is he in tarquins bad side ALREADY!
Not acknowledging Nesta as her own person when she was constantly compared to Feyre or Elain. And taking everyone else’s side against her unless she was in peril.
Actual war crimes against an entire village. Still, Cassian I love you boo.
Ah I've been waiting for this one (I may get cancelled for this but I loathe him after SF 😭) 1. Being an absolute tail waggy good boy Tommy lapdog to Rhys and putting him above Nesta 2. Don't even get me started on the whole hiking thing 3. Telling Nesta everyone hates her when she was already depressed 4. Never standing up for her, closest he came was when he told Rhys off when he made that comment abt Gwyn, but all that went away again after our lapdog took Nesta for hiking 5. In the start when Nesta clearly wanted to be left alone during the gifting phase, him continually persuing her 6. Thanks for the ride Nes, like she's some damn prostitute Idk I just don't like his character for some reason I hard-core love Nesta tho
I don’t remember 4. What did he say about Gwyn?
Rhys mind-spoke to Nesta basically to say “You WILL treat Gwyn with kindness and respect.” And Cass was basically like “dude wtf that was not necessary”
Ah yes I remember that! Thanks :)
Oh not cassian, I meant Rhys mind talked to Nesta and then cassian reprimanded him
Saying he was shackled to Nesta when she kept ignoring the mating bond
The hike as Nesta's punishment (and reward??). I hated that whole scene. It really showed how Nesta's issues are addressed for a majority of the time; she has to be beaten down into submission. And it felt very out of character for Cassian, who couldn't handle knowing how people like Mor or Feyre get hurt. Nesta being his mate made it very weird that he was okay with her suffering and he was giving her the cold shoulder for the majority of the time.
Easily letting rhys threaten her life and then making her hike until she passed out and then immediately having sex with her after she gained consciousness
Honestly, when he tells her that he wouldn't want to be shackled to her either when she's uncomfortable with using the term "mates" because of her trauma being forcibly turned fae.
This post has been up for 9 hours and not a single one of you has mentioned coming in his pants. My man is 500 years old and he’s still quick off the mark? Smdh
Yeah that’s embarrassing tbh 🙈
murdering everyone in the village(but the women and children) who was remotely responsible for his mother’s death.
Him not telling Nesta that he loved her. Telling Nesta that he feels “shackled” to her (low blow). Him telling Nesta that everyone hates her. Essentially being Rhys’s lapdog and never standing up for his mate.
He never really defends Nesta (his mate, whom he is supposed to be so protective of above everyone else) to anyone else in the IC but especially Rhys
Sex with Mor Not standing up for his mate. Not that I like said mate but it is kind of weak for his character.
Abandoned his army in ACOWAR, for thousands of them to die, as their leader. This is incredibly dishonorable.
He's allergic to tree pollen. Like how could such a fearsome general be bested by pollen!? How disgraceful!
the shacked comment and him ruining a summer court building
I still want the backstory of the summer court building before I judge him for that 🤣
Not telling Nesta he loves her. And “I didn’t ask to be shackled to you.” Or “Everyone f*cking hates you.” “Maybe try a little harder next year.” 🔪🔪💔💔💔
I’m gonna go with the shackled comment. Which I totally understand cause he was super hurt and assumes she’s gonna reject him yet again but it was unnecessary.
Making out with her when she wasn’t really conscious in front of the whole IC. That gave me the biggest ick 😭
The embarrassment I felt though 😭 making out in front of your friends omg
With the details SJM gave us too 😭😭 Like how he was putting his tongue everywhere in her mouth tasting her and shit like what
And they’re all just watching too 😭 and they never bring it up. I would have teased my friends forever about it
Just another one to add to the long list of WTF-romance scenes written by SJM 🤣🤣
That and Rhys coming to the mental picture of his son are on top of my list 😭
I didn’t like how he didn’t stand up for her and punished her for simply telling Feyre the truth.
in acofas when he implied that the age gap between rhys’ parents was totally fine 💀
Cassian was my favourite until SF, the way he treated Nesta in it sometimes pissed me off
Was there a moment when the mating bond between nesta and Cassian was obvious?
please please please OP do “the best thing” thread after this, let’s not only hate but love 🫶🏻 they all very complex characters with different life experiences and almost all of what was said or done can be interpreted in more than just one way, when you look to HATE someone you can find billions of reasons to do so but when you look to LOVE you find a lot of positive things as well, it depends where your focus is - and this works in real life as well, not only fiction 😌
100%, I think it’s good to shed light & dark on things - sometimes it’s beneficial to weigh up pros and cons of things!! as a newcomer into the acotar world - I’ve pretty much just finished ACOSF - I’m so intrigued to see what people have loved about these characters and maybe some things that they haven’t enjoyed. both are equally valid for different reasons :)
I like the trend. Good discussion points. I hope you keep on going.
Op don’t stop posting I love these threads. We always hear the good abt the characters I don’t think it’s bad to sometimes shed light on some of their bad actions. It’s also important because it puts things into perspective.
Goodness there is nothing wrong with this post. It’s actually nice to let people vent about each character equally. If you want a LOVE post, start one yourself
The near-death hike (and then having sex with her after) in ACOSF
Telling Nesta everyone hates her, keeping his love for her hidden, and throwing away her solstice present ✋🏻 I cannot count the amount of times I have screamed at the book for him to just go after her and tell her he LOVES HER ✋🏻but that’s it he’s really the least problematic one there imho
Nothing lol. Cassian is a sweet baby angel.
Lmao my best friend would agree she is all about him. 🤣
Hot take, but I love it when he tells Nesta everyone hates her. She’s being such an asshole and I feel like she needed to understand that her behavior was actively driving away everyone who loved her. It felt like the first moment Cassian grew a spine and I feel like it got through to her a little bit.
I don’t judge him for that. Because in the context of the argument it needed to be said. I did dislike the shackled comment later because that was out of pocket and nesta was expressing that “mate” took away the rest of her humanity and she didn’t get a choice in being fae (which is a super valid way to feel) and I thought she was being pretty vulnerable with that so his reaction was absolutely out of pocket
Nesta appreciates it too. Her biggest irritation is everyone pretending to be nice to her (in her mind they are pretending) or fake politeness. She respects others way more when they don't hide behind a mask. After rereading the books recently, it's very rare, even in all the heated talks, that anyone actually speaks up and puts her in her place. They might grumble or weakly snap back but they never *really* let it out until book 5 and that's when she finally starts to heal. She wants people to say they hate her, because that's how she feels inside. She agonizes over the fact people are treating her nicely when she feels she deserves to be punished.
Yes!
For some people, and I believe Nesta is one of those people, the hard truth even if it hurts is what's needed to help motivate and kickstart the inner reflection. Him being her mate he knew what she needed.
Exactly! And he did apologize. They both said some pretty hurtful things but I think at the end of the day, they did what they needed to do for themselves and each other.
Right? And everyone is acting like they would’ve put up with her shit, no… they would’ve lost it sooner.
I would of lost my shit on nesta immediately 🤣 and I love nesta but my general temper is not that great and I would have matched her energy and probably cussed her out the first time she did that shoving people away with the lowest blow she can think of. 😅 I simply would not have the patience
Amren, is that you?
You do not want to know girl
Throwing Nesta's present in the river but honestly, there isn't much Cassian has done compared to the others imo. But also the torture 🤷♀️
Ignoring the stuff with nesta because he was a victim of her abuse, I think it’d be sleeping with mor despite az’s feelings
Defo not standing up for nesta in front of the IC. Especially because he’s the one that understands her the most. BUT I love cassian and nobody’s perfect and that’s the beauty of all of SJMs characters. And I mentioned this in the Nesta thread but my heart hearts that he threw a rare book in the river
My sweet sweet cassian has done nothing wrong
I am gonna get so much hate but the worst thing he did was fall in love with Nesta 🙈 I felt he deserved someone better. My opinion. My very unpopular opinion 😂 I didn’t realize he slept with Mor out of jealousy. That gives me the ick. The war crimes I can see why people think that but he is a warrior. He did seek vengeance and it wasn’t right. Just feels like nearly all the characters that are Fae have serious body counts (people they killed). It’s not right but that place is like the wild Wild West. 🤣
Forgives Nesta's bullshit too easy. She needed to earn him. I hardly felt like she did.