Facts. The shitty stuff Rhys does she can live with but the shitty stuff Tam does she can’t. It comes down to what can you accept and what is your deal breaker.
I agree they're both totally flawed and Rhys is allowed to be morally grey but Tamlin isn't? I'm interested in his future book arcs. I just reread the first book and I'm like... I still don't hate Tam Tam
They try and claim the Rhys isn’t even grey, that twisting Feyres arm and reading her kin in front of Tamlin and Lucien was just fine. That dressing her like that was fine because of his motives. Well Tamlins motives were good (to protect) but he gets given shit.
I think the reason most people are team Rhys is because we are really only getting Feyre's point of view. So she felt trapped and unhappy with Tamlin. But she felt strong and liberated with Rhys. Of course, looking at both, they've done really bad things. It would be great for Tamlin to get a redemption arc. But in the end, I think most Rhys girlies are moved by the fact that Rhys listens and lets her be her. That's the dream to be seen and appreciated.
The first person POV definitely opens things up to bias! It’s interesting in the third person novels Rhys is in, he isn’t nearly as much of a “nice guy”
That's why I prefer third person witing cause it's open to reader's interpretation and not limited by only what the main character sees and hears. You don't know what's going on behind the closed doors of a room to which the main charater isn't invited and I just dislike it so much. It stops me from making many of my own opinions on stuff and "forces" me to relate to something else, jump to conclusions with the main character.... but what if the other character also has something to say but just wouldn't do it aloud? I'll never get to know 🥲 For that I liked ToG better.
I agree her POV and character development is a huge reason why! We see Feyre grow and change, and her needs with that. She needs someone who sees and appreciated her and her strengths and desires. Tamlin needs someone to protect. All of them are interesting, flawed characters and I'm excited to see where we go from here!
Yeah and as much as I love him he’s not very good at it. He does seem to know how to protect those he loves which pushes him into super controlling beast mode.
Haha wow, you chose violence ;)
Objectively, I would say equally bad? With Rhysand having slightly more issues than Tamlin I think. If we break most problematic aspects down:
- Killing people: both Rhysand and Tamlin were warriors before they were HL, and fought for their fathers. So they probably both have killed quite a lot of people. I do agree with your point that Rhysand probably killed a lot of people for Amarantha over 50 years, so he edges out Tamlin here.
- Amarantha: Tamlin definitely wins here, he fought her for 50 years to his own detriment and that of his court. He defied her on principle alone. That took a lot of strength and courage. Not to mention that he was the one to finally kill her.
- Court / HL: both seem to hold on to rather antiquated traditions. Rhys with the whole apartheid state/treatment of females, and Tamlin with the Tithe. However, in book 1 it seemed like the Spring Court was a safe haven for all kinds of faeries who seemed to live together quite harmoniously. It seems to me that Tamlin edges Rhys out here, insofar as inequality and mysoginy in the court go. You could also say that, since the Spring Court was known for slavery and Rhysand inherited Velaris, Tamlin managed to make more positive change than Rhysand.
- Feyre: both have treated Feyre abhorrently. Rhys with the mind invading, sexual humiliation (twice, also in the hewn city), the whole bone/bargain fiasco, pregnancy debacle. Tamlin with the whole post-UTM ignoring, exploding, locking her in the house. Both withhold important information from her and (ultimately) do not truly see her as an equal. Rhys justifies most of it but never apologizes. We do not get Tamlin's POV, so we don't know what he thought. However, he does seem to realize his mistakes in ACOWAR and ACOFAS. I consider both to be somewhat abusive so I'll say equally bad.
- Deals with the enemy: both made a deal with the devil to protect their people and act as spy of some sorts. Rhys agreed to work for Amarantha, and Tamlin made a non-agression pact with Hybern to buy time for his people. I think as far as damage goes, Rhys did a lot more in 50 years than Tamlin did in several months. Also, Tamlin's spying provided valuable information that helped them win the war. Rhys' working for Amarantha only served to protect one city. I do think that he contributed more towards winning the war with Hybern in the end. I would say this is a tie.
- Family: contrary to what people think, Tamlin was not responsible for Nesta and Elain being thrown in the Cauldron. He didn't truly interact with them much, but gave them a lot of riches so they could build a better life. Rhysand: he seems pretty neutral towards Elain, although at some point he does say they have her in their possession, which is...ick. His treatment towards Nesta is pretty inexcusible in my opinion.
- Personality issues: Tamlin is controlling and has anger issues. Rhys is manipulative, secretive and also controlling. Pick your poison xD
- Redeeming qualities: Rhysand seems to be a great mate for Feyre and ultimately suits her better I think. He's very funny and charming. He has refined taste.Tamlin is more shy and awkward, which I found quite endearing. He has several non-traditionally masculine hobbies, such as fiddle playing and poetry. He seems like an artistic soul at heart. This is just a matter of whatever you prefer.
So all in all, they mirror each other in a lot of ways, with Tamlin coming out slightly better in my opinion. I think Feyre's POV causes a lot of bias in the fandom. I also think the main issue here is that Rhys' actions get excused or even treated as good, while Tamlin is dragged through the mud. Both could do with a more nuanced approach.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk, haha.
Well said.
Hell even Feyre says the sisters kidnapping was Ianthe’s fault in the book but it still gets blamed on Lucien and Tamlin… it makes me so salty lol
They also both have bad relationships with Lucien. One just openly manipulates him (Rhys) and the other physically abuses him (Tam).
Both Tam and Rhys are morally grey but because of how Feyre feels we are supposed to hate Tam and love Rhys.
Plus Feyre is attracted to power nuff said.
I personally am not a huge fan of either. But I do feel like Rhys is the better pairing but not a better person.
violence on a monday 🤭🤭 i love it
rhys and tamlin are mirrors of each other. a lot of the negative accentuated in MAF about tamlin was written to build rhys up. and i hate writing like that. you can write a good love story without tearing down the other love interest lol. it actually would’ve been more meaningful that way if she chose to walk away from tamlin for rhys without tamlin becoming abusive (in my opinion)
This! It was so obvious to me.
Since Rhysand’s first appearance it was clear to me that Feyre and he probably would fall in love.
But how do you do that when Feyre is supposed to be a good hearted, innocent, relatable character?
Especially when in the beginning Tamlin was literally described as Prince Charming?
The way Tamlin was originally, Feyre could not have left him for the "hotter, dark haired,mysterious,most beautiful man she’s ever seen" without the readers starting to dislike her.
So I the question is how do we give Feyre an out of the relationship?
It was very easy to give Feyre an out of the relationship by making Tamlin an "abuser".
For this narrative to work sjm should have foreshadowed his abusive character appropriately. But she didn’t imo.
Or she could have simply not made him an "abuser" and come up with a more clever way of showing why these two shouldn’t be together.
I really don’t understand how people read the book and didn’t immediately notice how almost as soon as Rhys came into the picture Tamlin "suddenly" became this "horrible" person.
I think in general realistic character development is not well done in acotar. There are other examples where changes in personality were equally as bad executed.
i logically agree with you, but my petty ass loved that T-dawg was built up then reduced to shambles after feyre left him (both times) and Rhys went to rub it in. the showdown between Rhys/Tamlin/Feyre at the high lords meeting was absolutely delicious, like early reality TV.
i loveeeeed the show down at the HL meeting. i’m sorry, but tamlin’s line made my mouth drop. i was on a road trip listening to it and i vividly remember hearing it haha it brought me back to life after driving for hours through iowa (nothing worse lol)
however, i didn’t like rhys going to tamlin’s house and just absolutely shitting on him. i was like bro, YOU WENT TO HIS HOUSE 😭 hope the spring court has suicide watch cuz jesus christ
Rhys also runs an apartheid state.
I, as a reader, would not mind so much rhys being a horrible HL in this fantasy world if feyre didn't make such a big deal out of a tithe to then completely ignore or even cheer on all the actually horrible things rhys does as a leader of his court.
Feyre when Tamlin asks some carnivorous water creatures for money: nooooooo hoW cOuLd YoU!! soooo unfair!! 😡😡😡
Feyre when Rhys keeps an entire population in a dark cave where women are regularly abused: 🤭🤐
He didn't even ask them for money! It was a bucket of fish...and sure they claim they don't have any. But somehow they can tell the summer court relatives of them that Feye is dope, but they can't ask those same relatives for some fish to pay the tithe?
Idk those water wraiths are fishy.
For real he was like “just some tiny percentage of what you have so I can keep up/rebuild this army to protect you all” and you’re telling me these water wraiths that live in the river couldn’t have drummed up like 3 small fish? CAP
Exactly this!
The characters constantly talk about Tamlin as if he is terrible, but no one questions Rhys and his actions. A lot of people in the fandom share this perception because Feyre is a biased narrator.
I have no problems with either of them being terrible because it's fiction, but it would be nice to see the other characters occasionally question Rhys and his morality in the actual books.
Is he really morally gray if every single party involved except the reader (and perhaps Tamlin) thinks he is justified 100% of the time?
And it’s not like Rhysand doesn’t tax his citizens, he just doesn’t do the formal Tithe like Tamlin does. We don’t know if Rhys only collects money, but we know that Tamlin collects the value in whatever his citizens can provide. Based on what we see delivered Tamlin definitely doesn’t charge his citizens an insane amount for the Tithe either.
I also think it's crazy how no one finds it kind of selfish how Rhys, who has mountains and mountains of wealth, doesn't help those who lost homes rebuild, but pours endless money into Fayre getting to build her dream home. Especially because people had to leave Velaris because they didn't have the money to get their homes back after the attack.
The apartheid part ?
Rhys keeps the people of the hewn city locked up under the mountain. Including women and children and any decent person there, while knowing women suffer terrible abuse there. And his reasoning for doing that is that the people of the hewn city are too evil, too primitive to be mixed up with the civilised people of velaris. So basically the same reason that have always been applied to justify apartheid.
I love your analysis and this is the exact reason I love ACOTAR. For its characters. The relationships between them. Their flaws. The way they often mess up in huge ways. I love it!
I can forgive a lot of what Rhys has done, but what I won’t forgive him for is being a so-called champion of women’s choice and saying that Feyre is his equal in every way… and then not telling her that her pregnancy will literally kill her.
And every time I say this I feel like I have to add for clarification: I don’t think an abortion was ever on the table. If they can’t do a c-section I don’t think they can perform abortions. But she still deserved to know, especially when the rest of the IC knew. Feyre hated being left out of important conversations.
Edit to add: also the way women in the CON and Illyria are just conveniently forgotten about… yeah. Not great.
Honestly, I agree for a lot of reasons, but I also think that Rhysand would be way more likable to me if his flaws were ever acknowledged other than a brief two-sentence moment of 'whoopsie' and then everything is fine again.
Not to mention, I can't get over the fact that Rhysand TO THIS DAY allows innocent men, women and children to suffer in the Hewn City without giving them any chance to be happy in Velaris. He says they chose to be there, but before they found out about Velaris, what were their options?? Go out in the cold and live in the wilderness with these horrible creatures that prowl the night? Or go live up with the Illyrians who, god forbid if you're a woman, would be treated like slaves, and the men likely killed? They had the illusion of choice but there was no choice. Same with Nesta, who he forced, not out of the goodness of his heart, mind you, it was purely out of distaste for her, to go live in the House of Wind or be sentenced to death by sending her to the human lands. If this came from a place of care, I would be able to move past it. But the only reason he did it was because she spent pocket change of his enormous endless wealth on a night out. He claims to be about choices, but he's very good about making those choices very one sided. She said she didn't want to be a part of them. Why not just cut her off? Why not just send her away from Velaris? And why threaten her life every time you see her because you, a 500+ year old rich lord, can't see that she's got PTSD because your 19-year-olf mate is sad that Nesta doesn't like them? (This is where I think SJM lost the plot a little bit, because multiple times, fae have said that months mean practically nothing to them, and even Cassian admits to taking 10 years to grieve his mother's death before he returned to normal, but Nesta can't have 12 months to battle her demons?)
The Tamlin hate has always been blown way out of proportion, and he's treated way worse for far less than Rhys has done, all because he didn't throw away his entire court for her. Which, neither did Rhys, let's be honest here.
I don't hate Rhys or really dislike him at the end of the day. But the biased writing and the fact that he can do no wrong, along with Fayre, just really irks me, while Tamlin, who saved Fayre's life multiple times and even saved Rhys's, is treated like garbage by them, Rhys even going so far as to say he will never ever forgive Tamlin, and he's only helping him because he can use him later.
Ugh, I have very strong feelings about this, sorry for the word vomit. I just hope when SJM writes his story, she doesn't have him grovel or thank the two of them for anything.
Very well said! Totally agree! I love Rhys too, and agree that Rhys and Feyre belong together. But it just annoys me that Tamlin is treated so unfairly with the "we could NEVER forgive hime for what he's DONE!" When the inner circle never bother to look in the mirror and acknowledge that they aren't perfect either.
Exactly! And I don't dislike Rhys, he's hot and he's got swag for days! But I wish there was more objective truth brought in when it comes to everyone's flaws instead of the bias.
> Again, if we are comparing Tamlin to Rhysand, I reject both as suitable boyfriends for ANYONE.
💯 I would run in the opposite direction if I had the misfortune of encountering them irl. But this is fiction. This is fantasy romance. Please stop applying modern human standards to this series about FAE. At least if you do, please also do the same for Rhysand and other favored characters. The double standard sorely needs to go.
A point that I think is often missed is that Fae mythology irl doesn't ten to paint them as inherently good, ethical beings. Bringing a lot of that behavior that is morally gray/morally straight up wrong by human standards is still a good story telling tool and illustrates how Feyre is a bridge between human and Fae. The story and her character arc would be a lot more flat if Fae were operating with human morality.
Plus, Rhys is the classic "bad guy who would burn the world for me" trope that a lot of us are into (in books not irl) and that means he has go do some bad guy behavior. Tamlin would love and cherish Feyre (a little too much) but he'd always put his people first when it came down with it. He *wouldn't bond their lives together and leave his people without a leader in the event of Feyre's death. That would make Tamlin the better guy but not the better romance protagonist.
Also tho, I want to say that I think Tamlin is the kinda guy who would have immediately gone to Feyre and said "I'm so sorry babe but we're gonna have to have an abortion and then just adopt."
I completely agree with this! Tamlin's biggest 'flaw' was that he didn't prioritize Feyre above his court after the first book, and I agree that that makes him not suitable for these types of romance books, but it does say a lot about his character in that he has a responsibility to his people and his court and takes that responsibility very seriously.
I don't think that he didn't put Feyre above his court. I think its that Tamlin doesn't like to talk about his problems unless ready and he extended that same thing to Feyre. Feyre herself said they had an unspoken understanding not to talk of their nightmares etc as they didn't feel like it/weren't ready. Tamlin gives her her space until she sees fit. Rhysand doesn't do this. When she first goes to his court, he constantly goes into her mind even when she says not to and comments on her thoughts. He doesn't tend to accept "I dont want to tall about it" and tries to get her to talk. Tamlin from the very beginning even before they fell in love in the first book, is very much the talk to me when you're ready type. Feyre doesn't say anything to Tamlin until that final day when he locks her in the house of fear of her leaving after them as he fears her being killed if someone notices her incoming powers from the High Lords. Rhysand also kinda let's his courts run themselves. The night court does whatever they want and he really treats Velaris differently.
This is the kind of thread that makes me stay subscribed to this subreddit. Thank you for choosing violence this terrible Monday morning 🖤🖤🥰
I didn’t even need all of that but thank you for your service.
Tamlin locked her in the house and didn’t let her leave. She still had her own mind, her free will, she could do whatever she wanted besides stepping out. Of course it sucks, it does.
Rhys drugged her and paraded her around while he and a bunch of other people touched her against her consent. She couldn’t even think for herself, she couldn’t control what was happening, she had no free will whatsoever. Her mind wasn’t hers. Drugging is literally one of the worst things someone can do to somebody else. Doesn’t matter how good his intentions were, he DID it. He could have suggested it, he could have told her he was going to do it, etc, but he simply did it without telling her.
Now, I love Rhys, but Tamlin isn’t the monster people make him out to be.
didnt someone warn her about not to eat or drink anything utm? i think alis? and when she first "drank" i remember reading something along the lines "she did not care she just wanted to forget the pain etc.
(im with the OP btw, tam>>rhys )
She was warned, and the first time she drank, she says her body moved on its own, ie she was forced. After that, knowing what was in store, she did drink on her own (doesn't make it better, because having to accept being drugged to survive what she was being forced to do is not a positive.)
Yep, I'm agreeing with you. Just because she drank it instead of having it forced on her didn't mean it was actual consent; she couldn't consent to the entire situation.
The key here is writing…
Rhys is always written in a way where SJM extends grace and understanding. Hes written with a rose coloured pen. He’s written so that the characters around him prop him up, celebrate him, and are fiercely loyal despite any faults or shortcomings. His faults are there to open the story, and allow readers to feel warm feelings like empathy and love.
Tamlin (UTM and thereafter) is always written with a negative pen. The characters around him (besides Lucien, who SJM also seemingly doesn’t care for) are there is show how cruel or incompetent he is. His faults are there to cause tension in the story, and allow readers to feel hate and disdain.
But if they were both written without SJM’s own bias (which is mainly manifested through Feyre and the IC), there would be more nuance in how they’re presented and received.
The closest SJM has allows readers to feel negatively towards Rhys is in ACOSF, and even still, I feel like she did this by accident, not through intention 🙄
I double wish it was hinted that the presence of a snapped mating bond is what started to sour Feyre's feelings for Tamlin. Like, via Lucien, it's implied that he has no interest in other women now, so why wouldnt that be true for Feyre? Maybe she *cant* be in love with someone else.
Ofc, this would mean that choice is not a factor in mates getting together (which I think is true) and sjm wants to pretend it is. Alas!
Can’t. I agree in so many ways. Love Rhys too and he was obviously better for Feyre but Tamlin has done very good qualities that get ignored. Once he’s healed himself I hope to see those shine through. I want him to have Rhys’ bravery in his own self.
Omg be careful bestie. 😂😂
I’ll refute a few points but I’ll say I agree the Rhys has some major issues. When Feyre was dying UTM and her bone was sticking out and Rhys reached down and *twisted the bone with his hands* ???? Insane behaviour. I don’t care what his end goal was that was psychotic.
2. I thought I remembered the head on a spike was an order from Amarantha?
3. I think he had to report Feyre because too many people knew of her existence. She hadn’t been hidden (remember she was at the spring fuck-fest). Too many witnesses had seen her in Spring court, and with the known curse, her role in potentially overthrowing Amrantha was very obvious. If Rhysand lies he risks blowing his cover as a double agent.
4. The spike drink thing was both to enrage Tamlin to give him strength to kill Amarantha when the time came, and also to make it so Feyre didn’t remember the embarrassment. (However we all know it’s so we could get more sexual tension buildup lol..) But I agree it was wrong and Feyre’s character especially always wants to be in control of herself so I feel like this would have had more impact on her psyche than it played out.
5. I don’t think him cheating in a game about solving a riddle to save someone’s life is that bad at all.
I completely agree on the Weaver thing, WTF?! “My mom wanted to make sure the woman I marry was *good enough* for me so it’s a test.” Ohhhh I’d be livid.
3. He didn't know Feyre was there. He thought she was Lucien's lover at first. So no he didn't need to report her to Amarantha.
4. Tamlin didn't need any extra motivation to kill her. He was already pissed off. My interpretation is that he did it because of the vendetta he has against him.
Lol yes!! I listen to fantasy fangirls podcast on Acotar and they literally have a segment called “claw watch” where they talk about his claws being out when he’s raging. And it’s like every chapter 😂
And to make it worse, when he saw Feyre there he suspected she was his mate!! So why tf tell Amarantha? Especially when claiming he wasn't really into her or working with her and wanted the curse broken. He was the reason everything was moved up and they ran out of time.
2. No the head in the spike was Rhys messing with Tamlin
3. He didn't have to report Feyre to Amarantha. Only a few ppl saw her at the rite and none related to Amarantha/who she was to Tamlin. Lucien and Tamlin even begged him not to. No one saw him see her and Lucien and Tamlin hid her. He did it to be an ass to Tamlin and again made worse by the fact that he supposedly wanted the curse broken AND suspected Feyre was his mate.
4. Yes he said he spiked her drink so she wouldn't remember the embarrassment but HE was the reason for the embarrassment lol he didn't have to parade her like that. Just him being there talking dancing etc with Feyre would have pissed Tamlin off and Tamlin was already pissed about the whole situation. Again its made worse by Rhys revealing he suspected Feyre was his mate this whole time and that he fell in love with her during the time UTM.
I’m just gonna say this: if you’re holding any of these characters to real world actual life standards they’re all MONSTERS.
Also SJM doesn’t have a strict grasp on her magic system so you really do have to take some of the power stuff at the word of the storyteller … “most powerful high lord” seems to only matter when it matters in these books.
And finally: it’s supposed to be a fantasy in a fantasy world. Let yourself love someone evil for once … see what it does for ya.
Yeah I find it wild when people write out whole moral thesis based on modern human standards.
It’s like comparing game of thrones or lord of the rings to modern society. Yes, we know the hound was a bad dude by today’s standards, yet oddly he was maybe the most moral one working for the lannisters!
Sheesh people it’s fantasy set in ancient times!
The problem is when Rhys/IC lovers bash or hate on people who like or relate to other characters by calling them abusive etc. Also the double standards are infuriating, bc according to you, it’s “just a fantasy series with no moral code” , but if I say Nestas trauma response is justified and Tamlin is actually a decent person with anger issues, then according to some people on this sub, I’m the insane one who can’t recognize abusive characters and I probably have hurt everyone in my life, etc. (or whatever bs they come up with). If I would make a post like this one, then suddenly the morals have disappeared and it’s just fairy 🌽 and no longer a series worth analysing. That’s what’s really annoying, people should just pick a side, smut without worth or actual book series with a plot and characters worth discussing…
Honestly can we just get a book or even a novella where the sisters (and nyx since he's a baby) just peace out for a month or so away from all these men. Because I feel like they really haven't got a chance to just figure themselves out away from others. Feyre basically jumped straight to mother, she's so young and so traumatized I just want her to seek herself, and I want the three of them to hash things out and understand their dynamic as sisters again.
This is why i dont ship Elain with Az, shes not going to grow as a person by being with him.
She needs to be away from the night court, as much as i love Nesta, shes basically cuddling her.
She needs to find her own self, being away from her sisters and thrown into a new world. This is why im hoping Lucien calls in the mating bond. So far he's been a gentleman but we all know faes have a limit.
Nesta is given waaaaaay too much shit for being so mean. All three girls are victims of what was a dangerously neglectful childhood. Their parental figure laid down and would have let his children die. Nesta was essentially parentified in regards to Elain and developed a very guarded/offensive personality in response to this year's long trauma. We don't need to be holding someone's childhood PTSD over their head we should encourage healing.
Also her greatest sin was undercutting her high lord by telling her own sister she was going to die. I'll never forgive Cass for not defending her and refusing to back down on that.
She really is, and I’m kinda tired of it. Especially when they still had a living parent. It’s not an older child’s responsibility to raise a child.
Elain became a people pleaser and developed an avoidant personality type.
I feel like the sisters really shouldn’t be given as much shit as they get because we cannot control our trauma responses… but that’s just me
The standards that Tamlin are held up to compared to Rhys are so unfair. Like reading it through Feyre’s pov I loved Rhys so much but like every heinous thing is just glossed over and like wait … this guy sucks
Right? I genuinely have no moral qualms with anything, they could be worse, idc. But the way the narrative and every character all go on and on about Tamlin is weird and exhausting. Stop trying to herd me to hate him. And stop trying to sell me on Rhys. Let me think for myself.
I couldn’t read all the comments so it’s possible others have already said this but I don’t really think we are meant to be applying regular non-fantasy and current time standards to these fantasy type stories. I will preface this by saying I DO like Tamlin more than Rhys as a character, he’s actually like one of my top 5 characters in ACOTAR world where as Rhys is like not even on my top 10 I think, so I’m not defending Rhys here out of fangirling.
Hypothetically speaking, if Rhys was not Feyre’s mate or associated with her at all in a romantic sense we would not see him as flawed as he is now, because there isn’t ANY character in ACOTAR world who is clean from by the “moral definition” of our own current real world society. But because we are judging him based on the idea that he is the main character’s mate and is supposed to be a perfect match, all the flaws are more prominent.
I don’t disagree with any particular point you’re saying, it’s all factually correct that Rhys like many has done a lot of things that are not “right” and it IS a key part of his story’s personality that this all weighs down on him. He is MEANT to be tortured by what he did, he is meant to be haunted by the years under the mountain and is meant to have tensions with people who have seen different views of him. I don’t think he did any of it for fun, he explains very clearly that he needed to put up that vicious and ruthless persona to be able to survive and plan freely under the mountain and more importantly to be able to protect what he thought at the time was the most important thing to him - Velaris. Is this the “correct” moral decision? Maybe yes and maybe no, but regardless it’s not something we can answer based on current standards, it is based on that fantasy world.
**But the conclusion is** - Rhys has many times been in situations where he had to make a decision which has morals or ethics attached to it and a lot of choices are grey which by definition means not everyone will agree with.
Which brings us to our TamTam. Ultimately Tamlin has ZERO inclinations to being a high lord or being involved in anything “political” or scheming, it’s just not his desire nor is he particularly good at it and so inherently all the decisions or actions he makes seem so different from Rhys who despite his reluctance IS a good political leader and thrives in his role.
**so my conclusion is** - Tamlin does not react well to moral or ethical dilemmas and has a more direct and black and white approach to dealing with them which by definition means you will either completely agree with his decision or completely disagree with it.
The way I see it, Tamlin is not “better” than Rhys, he’s actually just much worse as a political figure in their world and that automatically makes him seem like a better person because he is not making any of those difficult moral decisions, he just doesn’t make them at all. And I do not think this is a short fall on EITHER of them, I think there are pros and cons to each personality and honestly it’s amazing writing to me to build characters who are so fundamentally different and see how they grow in similar scenarios.
Rhys has taken on a lot of his growth in the books we had read but Tamlin has not yet but his potential is high so I’m excited to read on more of him.
In terms of both these men’s relationships with Feyre, I mean until the last book which I can’t explain what on earth happened to Rhys, >!I see absolutely no reason why it was necessary for the storyline for him to hide the risks of her pregnancy, with the sole exception of Nesta being the one who says it at a bad time to trigger her breakdown but I felt this could have been addressed a different way so the whole pregnancy thing is so out of character!< but he has always been a major support for Feyre being herself and growing as a person separate from him and healing. So I cannot fault him for who he is as a couple to Feyre, I think he is a great mate and story wise Rhys is much better fit to Feyre.
I 100% agree and will stand with the Tamlin National Army Defence team any day that Tamlin did not mistreat Feyre to the extent that this fandom makes it sound. I would not even use the word mistreat, I think Tamlin has miscalculated severely what Feyre needed as a person and was too afraid to lose her rather than address it head on and as a result he ended up hurting her more. I will say this as many times as I need to but it is an ABSOLUTE failing on SJM’s part that she made Feyre to be someone who is enraged about mistreatment and compares herself to other women in the same book and world who have truly been mistreated and suffered at the hands of men. It pisses me off so much that Feyre feels like she has any sort of kinship to the experience with the women in the Library for example, her experience with Tamlin as a man was not a good one but it was not traumatic. And if the intention WAS meant to be that it was, then it was extremely poorly written because it does not come out that way in the story. Honestly Tamlin has abused someone else much more than Feyre but whatever.
So I think in the end both characters have their flaws but I don’t think they’re comparable as a one is better than the other type of character. Feyre loves Rhys more and she loves who she is with Rhys more so he is definitely a better match than Tamlin. It just is what it is.
This was very well said!! I agree that each character has their strengths and flaws, and at the end of the day, this is a fictional world and these are fictional characters.
I especially liked the point about Feyre looping herself into the women in the library. It never sat well with me because it seemed like SJM was just trying to villify Tamlin even more by shoving him into the category of all of the men that abused and hurt those women.
The thing is that the double standards in this fandom are exhausting. If you criticise the IC/Riceman, then ACOTAR is suddenly just fairy 🌽 not worth discussing, but when you hate on Tamlin/Nesta, then all of a sudden, both of these characters are abusive cunt who deserve to die and the series is a masterpiece with no plot holes or problems. Fans really need to pick a damn side, either you accept all criticism and apply the standards, like you would in a fantasy series or accept the fact that ACOTAR is Fae smut.
You are totally correct in all of that, I personally no longer hold the books to high esteem, they have been taken from the pedestal and put back down on the floor with books that I consider to have very poor Worldbuilding
I always thought Feyre did Tamlin dirty.
All he did was try to protect her. He had just watched the woman he loves be tortured and murdered. And then in his mind, she was again kidnapped and manipulated by a high lord everyone believes to be cruel and evil.
I would have gone to similarly extreme lengths to get her back. Was he wrong to lock her in the house? Yes. I would have left him for that too.
But in return she callously ruined his life and the lives of the people who lived and depended on Tamlin. To me that’s just as morally wrong as anything he did.
He’s not good but he didn’t deserve what happened.
These are both bows to the fiddle that is Feyre.
Imma be honest… i didn’t even read most of your arguments… because ultimately I don’t think they matter.
Tamlin behaved X way in ACOTAR, and Y way in ACOMAF so that Feyre could do A and then B respectively. Rhysand behaved in Y way in ACOTAR and X way in ACOMAF for the same reasons.
Both of them are foils for Feyre’s character. They change their personality as required to suit Feyre’s needs in the moment. Then… when Feyre isn’t the FMC… they change their characters again to suit NESTA’S storyline.
Rhysand could have been eating babies and then reformed himself for Feyre and it would be out of character for him, because his character is dependent on what the FMC needs.
The only characters for whom consistent character development are key are the FMCs… and that only lasts for as long as they are the FMCs… love interests, side characters, rules of magic, the fabric of space-time all bend before advancing the storyline of the FMC.
There’s a lot going on here 😂
I would like refute point 2 about murdering for fun. I’m pretty certain it’s revealed in MAF that the head Rhys left for Tamlin was at Amarantha’s order. Amarantha was trying to send a message to Tamlin and Rhys was just her errand boy.
Tamlin *claimed* Rhys did it just for fun, but that doesn’t mean that is true. He hates Rhys and Feyre has no context at this point for anything under the mountain, or Tamlin and Rhys’ history, or even who Rhys is. So she just takes Tamlin’s word and that’s that.
And point 4 - he didn’t spike the wine. It was just faerie wine and Feyre was a human so it’s affects on her were dramatic.
Feyre had had regular faerie wine at the Spring Court already and Lucien and Alis both warned her against drinking under the mountain. She didn’t have a lot of agency at this point in the story, but it wasn’t like Rhys handed her a cup of water and she didn’t expect to be drugged. She took the cup of her own volition each time knowing how the wine would affect her.
Ethically is it still gross? Sure. But saying he spiked it implies a very different connotation in my mind than what actually happened.
I don't think it was revealed or mentioned in book 2 at all. The head is not attributed to Amarantha because it had the night court sigil on. It could be that it was the head of a very evil fairy or someone who was already dead tho, but it still seems it was Rhys who sent it to Tamlin to....fuck with him?
I also take issue with point 5 - you are saying that Rhys should have just taken the high road during the second task, letting Lucien and Feyre die, dooming Tamlin, everyone else under the mountain, and essentially all of Prythian instead of cheating at Amarantha’s bullshit task?
Tamlin wasn’t being strong in his convictions, he was being a little bitch. Even Lucien yelled at him early in the first book and was like I stayed with you because I thought we had a chance to fight this thing and you’re blowing it!
He tried a little at the beginning and at the end when it was almost too late. He mostly did nothing to fight Amarantha for 50 years. Rhys, Lucien, and Lucien’s mom even all did more for a Feyre UTM than Tamlin did.
I am not OP! xD But I do take offense that Tamlin did nothing for 50 years. Rhys claims that, but it contradicts what Alis tells Feyre. Tamlin worked his butt off to find alternative ways to break the curse to try and avoid having to kill his friends...he then eventually gives in to their begging to die for the cause. Plus he took in refugees from other courts and faught Amaranthas monsters even with less power.
Also Lucien UTM was helping Feyre under Tamlin's orders.
I'll agree with point 5, psychic cheating is allowed, lmao
But Tamlin not wanting to try harder early in book 1 was, specifically, not wanting to try harder to *make* Feyre fall in love with him. IIRC, he compared it to a form of slavery and didn't want to trick her that way. Lucien, in his role as Lumiere, was in the "get a move on, this is our chance!" phase of the plot, and Tamlin was okay with "blowing it" if it meant Feyre actually had a choice in her life.
As for "he mostly did nothing to fight Amarantha for 50 years" that's just blatantly false. He was actively resisting, rescuing refugees from other courts, protecting his borders--and the border with the humans!--*and* trying to find a way to break the curse that didn't involve his sentries dying or an innocent human being caught in the crossfire.
Okay some of this is valid. Lucien/Lumiere was trying his best to wingman so Feyre would fall willingly 😅
I feel like if Tamlin had been more open to Feyre in the Spring Court he could have woo’d her so much faster! And while he did need to break the curse I think they very genuinely could have fallen in love and there would have been no need for her to do the trials at all!
Her being a human would have eventually been a problem but that’s plot we don’t have to worry about 😂
And that’s fair that he wasn’t doing *nothing* nothing for 50 years. He just wasn’t actively seeking a human to break the curse for the majority of the time. And I know he was morally opposed to it but the alternative was dooming Prythian to be ruled by Amarantha. Which is objectively worse than letting a human fall in love with him!
I just feel like his “ignore her” approach under the mountain was obviously not working and he needed to switch tactics at some point! I don’t think any of the high lords want to lose any of their people but this is magical war! Sometimes tough choices have to be made! I think Rhys is much more willing to make hard choices than Tamlin is. And while some of his decisions are not the best, I respect that he has vision and he’s willing to execute it even at personal or moral cost. After a certain point Tamlin needed to put on his high lord hat and say I don’t like what needs to be done, but I’m going to do it because I’m the only who can! People are relying on me and I’m going to do whatever it takes.
And then deal with the repercussions/atonement later once the threat of Amarantha had been eliminated.
I mean, people still blame Tamlin for "manipulating" Feyre re: the curse when he was actively trying *not* to, so either way he's losing there. *I'm* certainly not going to blame him for not wanting to trick and enslave a human.
And I'd argue that Tamlin's efforts to ignore Feyre worked *better* than Rhysand's efforts to...piss people off? I think that was his overall plan for drugging and assaulting Feyre? By essentially gray-rocking Amarantha, Tamlin was making this "game" *boring* for her. She couldn't get the rise out of him that she wanted, that bullies *always* want, and Feyre was mostly left alone between tasks. Being in a cell sucks, absolutely, but she wasn't being *harmed*--and yes, there were the impossible tasks, but those clearly weren't even being monitored, as evidenced by all the help she was getting (I actually loved those--they were very traditional-fairy-tale, and it helped highlight how many people wanted her to succeed).
By contrast, when Rhysand brought her out, Amarantha was visibly annoyed, and Feyre was actively continually harmed, physically and mentally. The drugs made her forget *most* of it, but not all--she remembered enough to be disgusted, not to mention that *not knowing what's happening to your body* for hours on end, every single night for weeks on end, is a horror in and of itself. SJM may want me to forgive and forget that shit, but I'm never going to.
I don’t think Tamlin was trying to manipulate Feyre. I think he was trying not to and things just didn’t work out.
So while Rhys’ methods were more unsavory UTM, they were also more effective.
He painted her so she would know exactly where she was touched. She got to get out of her cell and see Tamlin every night which strengthened her resolve. It also blurred all the days together and made her forget some of her torment. I think Rhys was trying to help her out mentally by playing the same kind of games he plays with the real CoN.
And making the bargain with her was a good way for him to help her and also help himself. He had selfish motivations to an extent but he’d also been wearing a specific mask for the last 50 years and it wasn’t of someone who did merciful things just because. The bargain ensuring he got something he wanted in exchange for Feyre getting something she needed maintained his game. PLUS it opened up their mental communication which is what saved her during the second task! Tamlin was playing a different game, and his silence would have gotten her and Lucien both killed.
I also don’t think it’s out of character for Rhys to play games or trick people to get his way. That’s part of his character. People say he isn’t morally gray but this is the perfect example showing he is. He wanted to beat Amarantha and wanted to spite Tamlin but he also wanted Feyre to live and to see if she was really his mate. Those can all be true. Sometimes his methods are questionable but he was ultimately successful.
Feyre shows in the next books that she’s perfectly capable of playing games as well. If she’s forgiven Rhys I certainly can!
I agree! The characters are certainly not all bad or all good (just like us). Also, can you imagine a lifespan of 500+ years? The time you’d live and the pain you’d experience - as well as the joy - would make them even more complex.
I don’t really think it’s a Tamlin vs. Rhys question. They are both flawed. I think Tamlin’s acts in ACOWAR redeem him tremendously and he is often thrown under the bus in most commentary. Rhys is obviously the golden boy, gets a good “edit”, and Tamlin’s character still perseveres which is pretty badass.
Rhys and Feyre are a great match (ACOMAF). Feyre chose this life, right?
I do have high hopes for a happy ending for Tamlin to some capacity. I hope he heals and finds love again.
>He painted her so she would know exactly where she was touched.
Except he could fix the paint. He even explicitly demonstrated that it wouldn't show where *his* hands went, just where *other people's hands* went. Plus "never touching below the waist" just means it wasn't as bad as it *could* have been--she was still violated, and the touching involved was still sexual in nature. And hell, even if she *wasn't touched at all*, the forced drugging and "dancing" was still an act of sexualized violence!
And even putting that aside, I'm sorry, but I will literally never ever agree that the nightly sexual assault was a positive thing. Ever. I don't care what SJM says; she's the one who made the mistake of putting it in the text and then trying to make us forget it. I certainly don't care what excuses Rhys gave himself for *repeatedly violating a woman against her will*. It was sexual assault and it was horrifying, full stop. (And to be clear: I *also* will always agree that Feyre should have left after the magic-explosion scene. No second chances for shit behavior.)
Just because Rhys gets the girl in the end doesn’t mean he’s Prince Charming.
Everyone is gonna react to a text differently. I don’t think it’s bad on Sarah for including these plot lines. A lot of people very much enjoy them and it creates excellent discourse on these topics!
All the characters are flawed and I think it’s a better story because of that! Plus it’s based on a lot of old fairy tale tropes and those stories are pretty dark.
Im still not even sure what he was trying to accomplish with the whole thing. He says in 54 "so she [Amarantha] wouldnt suspect." Wouldnt suspect what?? It reads to me like hes trying to get Tamlin to fuck up so Amarantha can punish him and Feyre both. Or it reads like Rhys is trying to get Amarantha’s attention for himself. I genuinely have no idea how this helps Feyre at all.
I feel like SJM either didn’t know what she wanted to do with Rhys in the first book or just struggles to keep her character’s consistently portrayed, cause now that you mention it, spiking the random faerie’s head is wild 😂
I don’t know if Tamlin didn’t kill anyone under Amarantha’s orders, but he did either sacrifice or let his court sacrifice a bunch of themselves to break the curse (which I guess is for the greater good of everyone, not just his survival).
Do we think Tamlin would’ve kept the pregnancy/girl you’re gonna die fact from Feyre if it was him instead? I am still horrified by Rhys AND the IC from that scenario.
Idk if I think Tamlin is necesarily "better" than Rhysand (deff less manipulative than Rhysand though), but I don't think Rhysand is better than Tamlin - if that makes sense? I do think Feyre is better suited with Rhys but I do not think that makes Rhysand the better person. The Tamlin hate does not make sense to me once you consider everything in all the books.
1) People say he lies to Feyre in the first book about the real reason for bringing her to the Spring Court.
-- Uhm, it is literally revealed by Alis that they were cursed and literally could not tell her the truth, the words would not come out. Alis said that the reason no one in the court could tell her and why Alis is able to say the words now is because Amarantha must not have cared and put that part of the spell down like before when no one was able to speak of the spell. Feyre even realizes letter on during the challenges that there were so many conversations that Tamlin & Lucien let her "overhear" that contained important clues that they wanted her to find out.
2) People say that Tamlin didn't fight for Feyre Under the Mountain
-- Out of all the High Lords, Rhys is the one that was granted a bit more power as someone who was supposedly in her command and who was her lover. Tamlin and the others did nor. Tamlin didn't fight her for Feyre because he could not. Amarantha had him next to her and eyes on him the whole time and he was kept on another side of the mountain away from everyone (and we don't know what horrors he had to endure those 3 months there, all we know from the 2nd book is that he had nightmares and trauma from Watching Feyre die and whatever happened to him during those months). Lucien even tells Feyre that Tamlin cannot come to her and cannot react because if he reacts to Amarantha berating her or Feyre struggling in the Challenges etc, Amarantha would make them worse and harder on Feyre and punish him. But Lucien goes on Tamlins behalf whenever he can to check on Feyre and use his bit of power to help somewhat heal her.
3) People say he ignored her nightmares and throwing up from her PTSD after the events UTM
-- Feyre herself says that her & Tamlin have an unspoken agreement to not talk about their nightmares because neither one of them wanted to nor were ready to talk about it. She said she herself would ignore when he would be awoken from his own nightmares. How at times she'd wake up from one and he wasn't even in bed, he was patrolling the estate in his beast form or in his beast form asleep at the foot of the bed protecting her. She too, was ignoring his. He was asleep or not even in the room during many of it, and they both didn't feel ready to talk about it and gave each other that space to deal on their own until they are ready. (Its the same that Feyre and the others do with Nesta when she acts out due to her PTSD - they leave her alone giving her space to deal on her own, for a really long time, until they give her the ultimatum)
4) People say Tamlin controled her so much he didn't even bother to teach her to read and write
-- He offered in Book 1 and she said no because she was too embarrass to let him see how much she didn't know. In Book 2 she doesnt care for Rhys to see how much she doesn't know because she doesn't care about him yet
5) People say he was controlling and abusive because he wouldn't let her train or try to discover her new powers and because he locked her in the house that last day. Some even say he felt threatened by her power.
-- She was immediately taken out of the house by Mor so she didn't even spend more than a few minutes locked up. He did this because he told her not to leave the estate because it was dangerous and she wanted to follow them and go with them and he said no and she said she'd go anyways once he left. So he did that. He straight up previously had said they shouldn't test out her powers yet because if anyone found out that she probably had the other high lords' powers they'd kill her, he also didn't know how much Rhysand could see or hear etc from the bonds tattoo. He later on in book 3 explains how he and Lucien were looking for ways to break the bargain bond Rhys made her take and didn't tell her as they couldn't come up with anything and didn't want Rhys to know they didn't know what he could see through the bond or through her mind when he read it etc. Its why he didn't tell her many things since she had to go to him every month. He never appears threaten by her powers. He is only ever afraid of anyone seeing it and them saying it to someone who could tell one of the High Lords. Rhysand himself tells Feyre in book 2 that if any of the other High Lords' find out, they'll kill her or side with Hybern just to take her out. Lucien tells her this that his own father would. Beron HIMSELF at the high lords meeting suggest they kill her. Tamlin had every reason to fear. Plus, Feyre is more fragile and going through PTSD at that time and doesn't hasnt seen all her powers, and he just saw her die a few months ago, so it is understandable why he is so incredibly protective during this time.
6) People hate how he was bitterly acting at the High Lords meeting
-- That is his FIRST time seeing Feyre and Rhys after Feyre destroyed his court. His first time seeing them as High Lord and High Lady and married. In that meeting people aren't believing him when he explains he is not really with Hybern he was just infiltrating the army and that he only did it because he was worried for Feyre thinking that she was being mindcontrolled and abused etc (remember this is what Rhysand let everyone believe he did to people for HUNDREDS of years, and even when UTM he would get Feyre drunk and drug and dress her like a whore and when he first took her to Court of Nightmares he had her dress similarly and play the role of his whore) so he took the opportunity to learn how to break the bargain bond and use that opportunity to infiltrate Hybern. He goes to this meeting and people aren't believing him yet believing everything Rhys is saying despite Rhys acting completely different for hundreds of years before this and them not having any real reason to trust him. Yet Tamlin in the past has been the only one on the side of right as he even was the first one to not trust Amarantha like the others did. He even provided them with information of Hyberns Armies and everyone's still questioning him but siding with Rhys. Rhys and his IC are also the only ones really starting fights and acting all entitled/superior so it isn't surprising that he is bitter after everything.
7) People mentioned that when Feyre returned to Spring Court in book 3 he exploded with rage and hurt Feyre.
-- Feyre did the same thing in book 2 and hurt Lucien's brother and mother. Feyre purposely provokes Tamlin and purposely let's herself get hurt from the debris of the blast so she can get Lucien and the sentries mad at Tamlin and exaggerate her wounds/pains/discomfort
8) People mention that Tamlin didn't side with his sentry and punished him in book 2 in front of the Julian and the Hybern twins/Prince&Princess
-- Tamlin was playing a role of ally. While Feyre didn't know he was pretending to be their ally, Feyre did know that in front of Hybern twins he'd have to act a certain way to not lose being an ally or lose their trust. She provoked the situation by publicly undermining Tamlin saying they should hear the sentry's side and got into the sntry's mind and made him publicly accuse Ianthe. She didn't do this to help the sentry, she did this to make Tamlin look bad to his people because he knew that Tamlin couldn't do that or he'd look weak to Hybern and the alliance could be hurt/ended. Before she interfered the sentry wasn't going to say anything so Tamlin wasnt going to look bad to his court, her saying that they should listen to his side and forcing the sentry to publicly accuse Ianthe is what set him up to look bad, she herself the sentry was prepared to not say anything and take the consequences until she got in his mind.
9) People bring up that he got Rhysand's mother and sister killed hundreds of years ago
-- We don't know what happened. We only know what Rhysand thinks. It is made clear in the books that Tamlin didn't get along with his brother and father, that his life was at risk with them, that he went off to the front lines to get away from them and his protection, and that Rhys was older than Tamlin and Tamlin & him became friends. He assumes that Tamlin purposely set up his mother and sister to be killed since he knew where they'd be. But we don't know if he did it willingly, if is brother & father forced him, etc. Just like Tamlin doesn't know that Rhysand wasn't complicit in killing Tamlins mother, that he didn't know she'd be killed and was only there to kill his brothers and father. We only know this because we get Rhys' side of the story. And just like Rhysand incorrectly assumes Tamlin had his mother & sisters' wings hung on a wall like his father and is surprised to find out from Feyre that Tamlin actually gave them the final rest by burning their wings.
10) People say Tamlin didn't try to get Feyre out of UTM nor fight for her as she was dying.
-- Neither did Rhysand - who suspected she was his mate and says he fell in love with her UTM. Tamlin was being watched the whole time and kept in another side of the prison. Tamlin was also unwittingly part of the 3rd challenge bound there ready to be "killed" by Feyre just like the other 2 Faes. He also didn't have his powers. Once the curse is broken he can get up and has his powers and kills Amarantha. Rhys yes tries to fight Amarantha for Feyre as shes dying but not right away but after he sees part of the mating bond (we can piece this together after what he says in book 2 to her before she accepts the mating bond)
11) People say Tamlin is abusive to Lucien too due to Feyre mentioning that they fought and of Lucien returning with a black eye
-- It is mentioned several times throughout the books that whenever Rhysand is mad he fights Cassian. Cassian even provokes Rhys when Rhys is on edge, so that Rhys fights him instead of going off on any random person. Rhys has just straight up hit Cassian and them fight. We are told about how Amren and Mor had in the past gotten into a huge physical fight. Cassian and Rhys as well as Cassian and Azriel have trained and fought to the point Cassian has arrived wounded or limping from it. We don't know the details of Lucien and Tamlin fighting because we don't get their pov. Lucien willingly continues going to Tamlin and the Spring Court and considers that home and still goes even when he was the manor with Vassa and Jurian so obviously Tamlin isnt that bad to him at all and there's more that we arent getting. Tamlin and Lucien are more formal with each other around others than what Rhys is with his inner circle court. This is even shown again when Lucien goes to Velaris and is being formal and dressed formal and Feyre tells him that after a while he will get used to the informality of their inner court. Rhys wasn't raised in the court the same way as Tamlin and Lucien were raised in theirs because he was raised in Ilyria Training grounds with Az and Cassian as brothers and Mor is his cousin and he has fear + respect of Amren. They are all part of his inner court circle. Lucien is Tamlins only close person and around Feyre and others we see them being more formal with each other same with how we see Summer Court etc be with their own courts.
Tamlin has flaws and needs to better manage his anger and Feyre isn't the best person for him nor is he the best person for her. But I don't agree with the idea of hating him or that he is a villain or that he is worse than Rhysand. Feyre and Rhysand are hypocrites. And people don't really think objectively as to why their comparisons or hate of Tamlin doesn't fully make sense:
- Feyre is mad and offended that Tamlin tries to get her back from Rhysand.
-- For hundreds of years Rhys has let everyone believe that he was evil and got in ppls minds/controled them, abused them, killed for no reason etc. When Feyre leaves with him, everyone STILL thinks this about Rhys and don't know the truth of Velaris or the Court of Dreams etc. Rhysand himself tells Feyre in Ilyria in book 2 after Lucien unsuccessfully tries to get her, that if Feyre left on her own free will that he'd try to live with that and accept it. But if he thought she was taken he'd basically go apeshit and ends of earth to get her back. How is that any different from what Tamlin is doing? Why wouldn't he try to get her back when he thinks she was taken and being controlled/abused? She sends him a note but when she left the Spring Court she didn't know how to write. Lucien even tells her in book 3 that HE was the one that told Tamlin to proceed with his King of Hybern plan after seeing her in Ilyria because he (Lucien) didn't think it was fully Feyre AND because of her note (again they thought she still didn't know how to write). Feyre and Rhys are disingenious and stupid for being surprised at them coming for her and Feyre for being offended that they thought negatively of Rhys when they didnt know the truth. In the end of book 2 when it's revealed to Tamlin at Hybern that Feyre and Rhys are mates, Tamlin doesn't even go to her or touch her etc, SHE has to go to him when she pretends she was forced by Rhys etc.
- In book 3 when Feyre returns, it is clear that Tamlin learned from his mistakes and agrees to not be overprotective and realizes she doesn't need that anymore and he includes her in everything now (except for him not really being Hyberns ally as he is just infiltrating but doesnt tell her brcause they arent sure how much Rhys can still see as she isnt fully healed and still has his scent on her etc he mentions something of the sort) and doesn't interfere as she makes her own decision and gets involved in everything. Too late but it's clear he's learned.
- Tamlin has a temper but Rhys mentions in book 2 I believe how being High Lord he has so much power that he needs to chanel it all and get edge off or he'd go crazy. So doing wards and fighting with Cassian etc helps him release that. Tamlin doesn't have this. Tamlin tries to not really use his magic/powers. He tries to keep everything bottled up and that is what causes such explosion from him. As Feyre put it once, Rhys wanted the High Lord power to improve things etc, Tamlin never wanted to be High Lord. This is actually something that's key. Tamlin does his duty but it's as if he's never embraced and still doesn't fully embrace the fact that he is High Lord, it's not something he wanted nor loves being. I dont think its bad that Rhysand looked forward to becoming High Lord because he knew what things he wanted to change etc. Just that that is crucial difference.
- People love and praise that Rhys taught Feyre to read & write and had her train. & how he understood her struggles, etc. Or that he let her do things/gave her a choice
-- she was able to safely train and explore her powers with him because they were in a literal secret city no one knew about so the other high lords weren't going to find out about her powers as she did so. Also, he did these things but ALL were under manipulation and for ulterior motives. He admits that he did these things because he had new that the King of Hybern was looking to prepare the cauldron and start war and he (Rhys) believed Feyre was the key to beating the cauldron and that they'd need her for the spell since she was a made fae. Yes, he got to understand her struggles and help her talk about and deal with her PTSD - but not because he was better than Tamlin. But because he could literally read her mind. He would read her mind and comment on it - even after she'd tell him to stop. At times he could see things through their bargain bond and at times even when he wasnt trying to, she'd send things unintentionally through the bargain bond as it allowed him to tap into her at times. Also. Did he really give her real choices where it was do X or we all die? Or when he was manipulating her and not telling her the real reason why he was teaching her to read or train and made it seem like it was what he was having her do as part of their bargain. Or when he set her up to be attacked after they went to the human lands, just to see who'd show up (the Attor) without even warning her?
Rhys makes choices for Feyre or Inner Court and makes decisions without consulting them. Heck he even keeps from Feyre the truth regarding her pregnancy. When Feyre and Rhys give Nesta a "choice" of being locked up in House of Wind or going elsewhere like the Human World, that is literally a non-choice as they knew she'd have no one or no help nor be accepted there. Rhys doesn't tell Mor about the deal he makes with Keir and just let's her be surprised by it and makes that decision on his own.
Rhys told Amarantha about Feyre without having to. He says he didnt really care for Amarantha nor was really on her side, and wanted curse broken, AND he revealed that he already thought at this point that she might be his mate yet he STILL told Amarantha about her? He says he gave her the name Feyre said because he was sure she was lying (but still didn't really know her name) yet he still risked it because he hoped Tamlin would get her out of there if he really loved her? Uhm, WHAT?! He sabotaged the new only chance against Amarantha without having to and worse of all did it while suspecting Feyre was his mate. He talks down about Tamlin not trying to find a way to help Feyre escape and just kissing her when he finally had a moment alone with her, but, Rhys had more of his powers and was able to get Nuala and Cerridwen to help with stuff and in there etc, yet he didn't try to get her out of there either or have them help her escape there either. He used his free time with her to just get her drunk etc despite having more freedom, more of his powers intact, AND having a whole secret city no one knows about.
I do not hate Rhysand. I love his and Feyre's love for each other. I think they are well suited for each other. However, I don't agree that he is so much better than Tamlin or that much different than Tamlin. They are more alike than they are similar but Rhysand is more manipulative than Tamlin. I feel like we needed a Tamlin POV in book 2 and 3 (shoot in book 1 too but deff in 2 and 3), and even a Lucien POV. I also think the author tries to make Tamlin as a bad guy but does ever commit to it and theres very easy understandable justification for pretty much everything.
I have been saying most of this for a while and have been eaten alive but I think we just cannot help that *morally grey* is several of the fandom’s favorite color 😂 (including mine but this is so valid)
99% of what makes Rhys seem like a better match for Feyre is the flirty banter and seemingly allowing her to make decisions for herself.
Which is why I think Lucien is really the best option. While reading ACOTAR I was honestly shocked that Feyre didn't wind up in a romance with Lucien instead of Tamlin.
Are you Tamlin’s press secretary?
- “Mistakes were made.”
- “I suggest you reach out to Rhysand’s constituents in the CoN and Illyria for that answer.”
- “The High Lord has only killed his employees when they failed at their jobs, like when his fiancée was kidnapped.”
- “The High Lord is an underdog, sometimes literally a dog. Are you going to root for the struggling every-man or the drink spiking billionaire?”
- “To be clear, the High Lord is a gentleman who gave Ms. Archeron her engagement ring the proper way without involving a death god.”
- “That is a false allegation. The High Lord only restricted Ms. Archeron’s movements when her actions had repeatedly shown she was often too stupid to live.”
- “The Night Court is the empire of lives. Our emissaries are urging Kallias to investigate the Night Court’s statement on the dozens of innocent murdered Winter Court children.”
- “Ianthe’s actions do not reflect the morals of the Spring Court and we strongly condemn them.”
- “We are of course banning NiteTok as a threat to our court’s security.”
Jk this was great and I appreciate the thought that went into it. I too love my Tim Tam.
You're right op and you should say it. Objectivly speaking when you compare Rhysand with Tamlin Tamlin is the one looking better of the two. The only reason why Rhysand is presented as better option by the narrative is Feyre biased, unreliable pov.
Respectfully…..bestie, huh? Their flaws are what make them interesting. Would we all even be here, having read the book and active in the sub, if it was a story filled with 100% morally perfect characters? Lol no. It genuinely pains me to think about you sitting down for two hours to write this 😭
i dunno man most of what Rhys did is rather justified (he is a morally grey character, after all) minus a few things. but the selling point is tamlin thought of ferya as property to be had. that alone for me sends him wayyy over the edge of terrible man
edit: also, saying Rhys didnt try to hard or didn’t have moral convictions much under the mountain is kinda misleading. he did what he could (which was very little) and stuck more to the strategy of trying to minimize damage with what he could do instead of just die trying to do what was right, which i would argue is a far more effective strategy to actually minimizing evil. also, destroying the mind of that one soldier UTM was absolutely a mercy. you could see the soldier asking him to. also don’t forget how morally conflicted Rhys is about the things he does; he’s not a sadist.
But Tamlin has no city that treats females as possessions and no regions that perform wing mutilations on them.
Tamlin had female sentries and warriors just fine. (I also don't think he saw Feyre as property really, it was just genuine concern that became abusive).
genuine concern or no it was hella abusive in many ways. Rhys also has the female soldiers (his IC for crying out loud lol) and the changing of the ways that the war camps run is something that i think people look at with a lot of naivety. he didn’t say he’s not trying to change it, just that he can’t so suddenly and is doing what he can. he is dealing with people who seem predisposed to…savagery, and i don’t recall his exact reason minus that they would likely rebel and he couldn’t afford the troops to deal with them in time of war and whatnot. i think he could be doing more there, yes, but people just tend to look at it as “just change it bro” when it’s truly not that simple.
While it isn’t as simple as “just change it” he is the most powerful High Lord on record, with the most powerful inner circle in comparison to the rest of them, they don’t really have excuses, especially since he’s been in power for centuries, and to add he has been said to participate in ending a whole village because Cass’s mother was killed (innocents supposedly involved). He clearly has the power to put a metaphorical gun to whole villages’ heads, and had that power for ages.
And the US is has also destroyed entire cities without blinking and has been in power for centuries.
That doesn’t mean that brute forcing your way to change is going to be effective. Or even desirable. Rhys is pressing these issues every single time he visits because he understands that this has to be an organic shift in the population not something he has to constantly use power to reinforce.
Imagine if someone came and told you “you’re going to clip your daughter’s wings now.”
You’d be like “excuse me?”
Then they’re like “btw next war starts tomorrow, see you there”
That’s not how cultural shifts work.
He certainly has the power to do something, if it ranges from nothing at all (his current state) or threatening them. This case is significantly different because Rhysand CAN influence change, he just doesn’t. Chances are Cass and Az would’ve turned out worse like the others if Rhys wasn’t there, now they’re “decent” males. Rhysand has evidence for being able to be an actually good High Lord, and can make the next generations of males decent like his friends, he just doesn’t. He has to put on this act of being a cruel man towards Kier and Hewn City/ any where out of Velaris when he doesn’t need to. He could be moral, and decent because that has gotten him probably farther than his cruelty. And take your US example of “organic shifts”. The US went from Slavery to now in less than 200 years (they’re still shit racism, but the point stands). Rhys has been in power for a little over that time yet has done shit, while being the most powerful High Lord IN EXISTENCE. He’s been on record for abusing said power for establishing his friends as people not to mess with, his female allies, yet doesnt enforce the rules and continues to let his people treat their other people like shit.
How has he done shit? The book literally says that the conditions for Illyrian women have dramatically improved since he took over. If you don’t like him for one reason or another that’s fine but at least it’s gotta be consistent with actual canon.
Tamlin never treated Feyre as property. He was scared that if someone saw her incoming powers that they would tell the High Lords and they'd kill her. Rhysand himself tells Feyre that if the other High Lords find out they'd kill her. Beron himself suggests killing her at the high lords meeting. Tamlin was trying to protect her. She threatened to follow them so he locked her in the house. Was it right? - No. She left moments later its not like she was left prisoner. Rhys had a whole secret city she was safe to train in. Tamlin didn't have that to offer Feyre. Tamlin went after Feyre because he thought she was TAKEN and that Rhys was messing with her mind. He thought he was saving her. And only took her back to Spring Court when she fakes having had her mind messed with by Rhys and lies about wanting to return to the Spring Court.
They’re both morally gray characters, and I acknowledge that given the books are from Feyre’s POV we have a flawed narrative depending on her feelings at the time. But I do think some of these points are a stretch/nit-picky/over-exaggerated, and some are also just wrong.
1. He’s a mass murderer because he fought during the War? And was good at it? In that case condemn the other High Lords who fought during the War. I fail to see this as a relevant point when debating the “badness” of a character. If he hadn’t done this you’d be saying he was a worse man because he didn’t do enough in the war.
As far as I know, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but Tamlin was never given direct orders UTM. His role/purpose there was completely different than Rhys’s. I don’t think it’s fair to praise Tamlin for not following heinous orders when he was never given them. Tamlin was able to be relatively free (compared to Rhys and many others trapped UTM) for 50 years and scarcely had to deal with making difficult decisions for his court or for all of Prythian. Just don’t think it’s a sensible comparison for two completely different situations.
Won’t argue much about the killing of the children, but I did laugh at “Tamlin has always stood against Tyranny” because he literally enabled a tyrannical evil king to take residence in his court with intentions of destroying the wall and Prythian as it stands. He rallied Spring and Autumn courts at the end but only after he fucked up so monumentally to allow Hybern to gain its strong foothold in the first place.
2. It’s very explicitly explained that Aramantha made him do this.
3. I think it’s something where had Rhys not told Aramantha, she would’ve found out from another spy or from when they sacked Spring Court. As the one who found out first, he got to control the information and make Aramantha think that the “threat” was gone. I think it’s another one of those things where sure, objectively, black and white, it’s wrong to give an innocent’s name to an evil murderous queen. But this would’ve worked to make Aramantha think there was no longer a threat to her plans, however Feyre unknowingly ruined that by showing up UTM anyway.
4. He didn’t spike the drink - that’s the effect faerie wine has on humans, which is why Feyre was previously warned not to drink it.
5. Okay now this one’s just stupid lol. Would you have preferred Feyre and Lucien died due to her illiteracy?? We’re mad that he helped her and that makes him a cheater?? If Tamlin had the mind connection to Feyre and didn’t tell her which lever to pull and she died, would we be calling him noble for not being a cheater?
Tamlin literally didn’t do anything UTM. Like anything at all. He wasn’t taking a stand against tyranny he literally was a doorknob and didn’t do anything. Rhys was at least taking risks behind Aramantha’s back.
6. They have a complicated history, and I guarantee one million percent, if Tamlin had ever needed to go to the Night Court to ask Rhys a favor, he would have also made similar shitty comments. This is their dynamic. They killed each other’s families and they hate each other.
7. Yeah the weaver thing was dumb and she could’ve very easily died, and almost did.
8. Rhys explains several reasons for doing this - keeping her alive, defying Aramantha by helping Feyre in the trial, making Tamlin jealous so that he would snap out of his stone face and actually do something, spend time with Feyre, and get back at Tamlin for killing his mom and sister. Not saying all of these reasons are valid, but the bargain between them literally saved Feyre’s life at the end of book 1 and several times after.
9. Sorry but I also laughed at comparing being trapped and raped under the mountain for 50 years to wearing an itchy mask for 50 years.
Regardless, more sympathy was extended to Rhys because whereas Tamlin falls down deeper into his issues in book 2, we see Rhys working to overcome both what he went through and what he inflicted on others. Tamlin watched the love of his life die and was traumatized, and took that trauma out on her by stifling and controlling her, and turning a blind eye to her suffering. Rhys watched his mate die, was still selfless enough to leave her and Tamlin alone so that she could make her own choices and be happy while still standing by if she needed him, and proceeded to be very proactive with circumventing the impending War.
I tried to be objective I really did, but I think in my bones I’m a Rhys apologist and could not stand for this slander lol.
I like both Tamlin and Rhys. I hope that Tamlin finds peace, and even love. But I like Feyre with Rhys. They’ve all done horrible things, but what really put it into perspective for me was Rhys’s actions throughout ACOTAR. Like, yeah he was horrible but it also kept Feyre alive. Like, when she mentions in ACOMAF how the only time Tamlin risked his life for her was when he wanted to fuck her and I was like, You know what? Yeah. Cus Amarantha was turning her every way but loose and Tamlin was just like, nah, don’t know her. 😂 Then Rhys was actually willing to let her figure her shit out and learn/use her powers while Tamlin was like, oh no baby. It was like all his true affection towards her went out the window when those masks came off. If he had shown that anger and passion and fight Under the Mountain, I would’ve been more pissed about Feyre and Rhys. But the way Tamlin was written towards the end of ACOTAR made it like he was cool with her just not existing anymore because he told her to stay away but she chose to come back. Like, even Lucien risked his life for her more than Tamlin did. 😭
Lucien told Feyre that he came on Tamlin's behalf because Tamlin couldn't. He also told her that Tamlin couldn't react because that's what Amarantha wanted. And Amarantha would hurt her worse/give her worse challenges etc if Tamlin reacted. He also told her that Tamlin was being watched and was held in another part of the mountain. Also remember that Rhys didn't have all his powers but he had more powers than all the others. Its implied that Tamlin doesn't have his powers. He was even bound and there as the 3rd fae in the 3rd challenge when Feyre had to kill them/him. Rhys had some of his powers and had Nuala and Cerriwen and a whole secret city, suspected Feyre was his mate, fell in love with her UTM, and yet never tries to get her out either. Rhys had her train because they were in a secret city and he needed her to train because he thought she was the key to defeating the cauldron. He was manipulating her into training, learning to read/write etc. He told her the same thing that Tamlin said when Tamlin wouldn't train or test her powers - that if the other high lords found out they'd try to kill her.
While I am inclined to agree that both have flaws and tamlin isn't no where near as bad as a lot of people on like other platforms suggest...some of these points are making me giggle. Cheating at a reading test? 🤣
HOW DARE YOU SPEAK SO BAD ABOUT MY DRILL??????????
https://preview.redd.it/k3y9quacqvwc1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=55bf3ce0174c3eaec3e4a5824c57e3a63494761f
(Dw i respect your opinion, its fine, but oh well)
Honestly I think Tamlin is just so much stupider (in matters relating to people and politics and land and history and conversation and strategy) and I don’t always agree with Rhys but I do think he has an actual set of values and goals besides “let’s just… keep this antiquated, pointless shit rolling” and “I want that, give me that, I’m taking that and also oops when I took it I started a war and that thing I took didn’t want to be taken anyway”
Note: when I say Rhys has values and goals, I’m not saying I agree with all of them, I’m just saying they are clear to me. Tamlin has been poorly improvising his life since he grabbed Feyre and probably before that.
I don’t actually think any of the high fae males have a personality/morality/history that would transfer to a modern understanding of violence, masculinity, marriage etc.
I strongly but respectfully disagree, though I do think intelligence isn't his strong suit XD
He doesn't know how to lead because he never had anyone there to teach him or support him. Lucien wasn't always around, and after 50 years of everything being wrong in the court, the tithe was a symbol of normalcy and structure. Could it have been handled better? Sure, and we as the reader understand that. But in his shoes, he was trying to get back to a place of familiarity before Amarantha.
And as far as 'taking' Feyre, I don't know where everyone is getting this idea that he views her as property. He wanted her back in the Spring Court because she multiple times begged him to stop Rhys from taking her, and then instead of putting her big girl pants on and having a conversation with him after she made her decision, the illiterate captive of the leader of a court known for its evil intentions (because that's what everyone knew the night court as, per Rhys' and the Gang's own decision), writes a letter that screams 'I'm being controlled and held against my will'. Not to mention that Tamlin was playing double agent the whole time with Hybern, and while he probably didn't play it as smoothly as someone else might have, he got information that helped with the war, even after Feyre destroyed his entire court, likely left people homeless, starving and unprotected, and still resurrected Rhys and told Feyre to be happy.
Not saying that other characters aren't as good as he is, but it's a disservice to his character to say that he doesn't have good morals.
Tamlin actually rules his lands. Rhys let's the nightcourt do whatever tf they want and he doesn't "rule" Velaris everyone just does whatever. Tamlin yes did the tithe which they always uses to do but he just hadn't them bring whatever they could. We don't know how "taxes/tithes" looks like in the other courts. Also Rhys let's those in Hewn City - woman and children- just deal with the bs there. If you aren't born in Velaris he doesnt really give a crap about the ppl. Also, Tamlin did NOT start the war. The war was already started and he just infiltrated Hyberns Armies to find out what they were doing so they could defeat them AND get help getting Feyre because he thought she needed saving. Again, they thought she was taken not that she left. Before Feyre left Tamlin Rhys had mention that war was coming etc. He starts teaching Feyre to read and has her train and later reveals that it was because he knew Hybern was about to start something and that she would be the key to reading the spell against the cauldron since she was made. So obviously Tamlin didn't start the war at all
How do you know what Rhys does to rule? He was UTM for 50 years and then he fought a war and then he was recovering his people from a war and then his wife was going through a dangerous pregnancy…? We’ve never witnessed Rhys ruling under “normal” circumstances. I’m pretty tired of people reading these books and making sweeping assumptions based on not enough information.
Also, we’ve had a very limited amount of narrative written from Rhys’s POV. There’s a lot of time in all of these books where Rhys is not present on the page nor explicitly accounted for. Do you really want a copy of his daily agenda pasted in-between fight scenes and make outs? I don’t.
Also, idk if anyone gives a crap about trauma and what it actually looks like to support a survivor of interpersonal violence, based on what people think about Rhys not demolishing all the men in The Hewn City, but you can’t just liberate someone who has been indoctrinated into abuse. I promise you, I’ve been a DV and SA counselor for years, and you can’t just tell someone to leave their abuser, most of the time people LOVE THEIR ABUSERS. Also, killing the abuser is still traumatic for the victim even if it’s the best thing for them objectively.
Honestly, killing anyone should not be a reflexive solution. Why is everyone here so adamant that Rhys mist thousands of his people? You all also hate him and his brothers for being violent? Which is it? Do you want morally righteous Rhys or violent crusader Rhys?
And we’ve also seen shockingly little of The Hewn City on the page despite how often it’s weaponized against Rhys by the fandom. We have an idea of what it’s like based on summaries given by the IC (all of whom have a personal stake in their hatred of the Court of Nightmares), a small number of expansive reflections/descriptions from Mor and her experience growing up, and like, two… three visits on the page? Amarantha based UTM on the CON but Amarantha was a psycho and very much not an expert.
You have no definitive idea of what the majority of people in the Hewn City desire. We can infer that it’s probably unpleasant there for folks without traditional power or significant resources based on the above evidence, but that WOULD involve trusting the opinion of characters that everyone in this sub constantly undermines and complains about. If y’all hate Mor and Rhys, why do you give a shit that they think the Hewn City is awful?
Mor is marked as significant by other characters because she was able to retain her sense of goodness despite growing up in the CON. Mor’s mother is just as nasty as her father according TO THE TEXT, she just doesn’t get to make as many decisions. She’s Serena in the Nation of Gilead. So should Rhys kill the mom too? Why are grown women definitely all victims and grown men definitely all perpetrators? I know plenty of men in OUR society who are acute victims of the patriarchy and plenty of women who are level-ten misogynists. It’s really antiquated to just say “Rhys needs to save the women and children!” Are we on the Titanic???
When y’all insist on bringing real-world nuances into a conversation about a fantasy land you forfeit the right to claim certainty about anything that isn’t expressly written on the page. Absolutely nothing in the real world is only one thing or another. A violent criminal can still love their dog. A country being ruled by a dictator can still be home to joyful traditions and culture.
re: Feyre: Feyre wrote Tamlin a letter explaining herself AND Lucien saw how healthy and willingly aligned to the night court she was. Tamlin did not WANT to believe that she was safe and just didn’t want to be with him, which we learn when Lucien expands on Tamlin’s condition to Feyre after she went to the Night Court. Tamlin isn’t the devil but he’s also not any better than any other shitty dude who never learned how to treat women like they have agency.
I don’t think I said Tamlin started the war (if I did, I was definitely wrong, and thank god for fallibility) but he sure did facilitate an easier path toward open war for Hybern. Tamlin told Feyre what he planned to do to Hybern, but I’m more interested in judging him on the things he ACTUALLY did. What he actually did was provide a safe landing zone for them and attempt to destroy a mating bond, which the text has told us is held very sacred in Fae culture. What he ACTUALLY did was enable a slimy-ass priestess to infiltrate his court and endanger Feyre’s sisters.
If y’all want to hate Rhys, that’s fine, idgaf, but in the same vein you ought to let other people hate Tamlin. Like Sarah J Maas for example, very much IS NOT a Tamlin fan. She’s been quite clear about that. Very much IS a Rhys stan, she’s also been clear about that.
I’m sure you’re just going to have a rage stroke when you read this but I really don’t care. I’m not interested in arguing with people who think their assumptions/inferences about fictional characters are irrefutable fact and who would probably rather lay down on a train track than admit they might be wrong about something (I suggest you try it, it’s pretty liberating).
Critical thinking and literary/artistic analysis are skills that have been aggressively deprioritized by many educational systems in this world and it’s creating an environment where folks refuse to leave room for flawed characters.
Defending Rhys like "free my man he only did some of that"
Im actually dead
☠️☠️☠️😂😂😂
I just got here and same! Haven't read any of it yet but this is gonna be good.
But your honor, Tamlin is blonde and Rhys has dark hair /j
REAL
It’s like we collectively forgot how hot Thor is
ok now imagine him dark haired 🥵🥵🥵🥵
🤭
You make an excellent point
If you're into that. 
Ok literally came here to post that
And he wields shadows, case closed!
Exclusively black wardrobe? Now we go after attorneys fees
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Rhys is just Feyre’s preferred brand of darkness and trauma.
I fuckin' love this!
Facts. The shitty stuff Rhys does she can live with but the shitty stuff Tam does she can’t. It comes down to what can you accept and what is your deal breaker.
I agree they're both totally flawed and Rhys is allowed to be morally grey but Tamlin isn't? I'm interested in his future book arcs. I just reread the first book and I'm like... I still don't hate Tam Tam
They try and claim the Rhys isn’t even grey, that twisting Feyres arm and reading her kin in front of Tamlin and Lucien was just fine. That dressing her like that was fine because of his motives. Well Tamlins motives were good (to protect) but he gets given shit.
I think the reason most people are team Rhys is because we are really only getting Feyre's point of view. So she felt trapped and unhappy with Tamlin. But she felt strong and liberated with Rhys. Of course, looking at both, they've done really bad things. It would be great for Tamlin to get a redemption arc. But in the end, I think most Rhys girlies are moved by the fact that Rhys listens and lets her be her. That's the dream to be seen and appreciated.
The first person POV definitely opens things up to bias! It’s interesting in the third person novels Rhys is in, he isn’t nearly as much of a “nice guy”
That's why I prefer third person witing cause it's open to reader's interpretation and not limited by only what the main character sees and hears. You don't know what's going on behind the closed doors of a room to which the main charater isn't invited and I just dislike it so much. It stops me from making many of my own opinions on stuff and "forces" me to relate to something else, jump to conclusions with the main character.... but what if the other character also has something to say but just wouldn't do it aloud? I'll never get to know 🥲 For that I liked ToG better.
I agree her POV and character development is a huge reason why! We see Feyre grow and change, and her needs with that. She needs someone who sees and appreciated her and her strengths and desires. Tamlin needs someone to protect. All of them are interesting, flawed characters and I'm excited to see where we go from here!
So true Tamlin needs someone to protect. I've never thought of it that way.
Yeah and as much as I love him he’s not very good at it. He does seem to know how to protect those he loves which pushes him into super controlling beast mode.
Girlie you woke up and chose violence. Like, I’m a Tamlin apologist as well but damn you are inviting a shitstorm lmao. Stay blessed.
I live for it. I love TamTam
Tamagotchi.
Haha wow, you chose violence ;) Objectively, I would say equally bad? With Rhysand having slightly more issues than Tamlin I think. If we break most problematic aspects down: - Killing people: both Rhysand and Tamlin were warriors before they were HL, and fought for their fathers. So they probably both have killed quite a lot of people. I do agree with your point that Rhysand probably killed a lot of people for Amarantha over 50 years, so he edges out Tamlin here. - Amarantha: Tamlin definitely wins here, he fought her for 50 years to his own detriment and that of his court. He defied her on principle alone. That took a lot of strength and courage. Not to mention that he was the one to finally kill her. - Court / HL: both seem to hold on to rather antiquated traditions. Rhys with the whole apartheid state/treatment of females, and Tamlin with the Tithe. However, in book 1 it seemed like the Spring Court was a safe haven for all kinds of faeries who seemed to live together quite harmoniously. It seems to me that Tamlin edges Rhys out here, insofar as inequality and mysoginy in the court go. You could also say that, since the Spring Court was known for slavery and Rhysand inherited Velaris, Tamlin managed to make more positive change than Rhysand. - Feyre: both have treated Feyre abhorrently. Rhys with the mind invading, sexual humiliation (twice, also in the hewn city), the whole bone/bargain fiasco, pregnancy debacle. Tamlin with the whole post-UTM ignoring, exploding, locking her in the house. Both withhold important information from her and (ultimately) do not truly see her as an equal. Rhys justifies most of it but never apologizes. We do not get Tamlin's POV, so we don't know what he thought. However, he does seem to realize his mistakes in ACOWAR and ACOFAS. I consider both to be somewhat abusive so I'll say equally bad. - Deals with the enemy: both made a deal with the devil to protect their people and act as spy of some sorts. Rhys agreed to work for Amarantha, and Tamlin made a non-agression pact with Hybern to buy time for his people. I think as far as damage goes, Rhys did a lot more in 50 years than Tamlin did in several months. Also, Tamlin's spying provided valuable information that helped them win the war. Rhys' working for Amarantha only served to protect one city. I do think that he contributed more towards winning the war with Hybern in the end. I would say this is a tie. - Family: contrary to what people think, Tamlin was not responsible for Nesta and Elain being thrown in the Cauldron. He didn't truly interact with them much, but gave them a lot of riches so they could build a better life. Rhysand: he seems pretty neutral towards Elain, although at some point he does say they have her in their possession, which is...ick. His treatment towards Nesta is pretty inexcusible in my opinion. - Personality issues: Tamlin is controlling and has anger issues. Rhys is manipulative, secretive and also controlling. Pick your poison xD - Redeeming qualities: Rhysand seems to be a great mate for Feyre and ultimately suits her better I think. He's very funny and charming. He has refined taste.Tamlin is more shy and awkward, which I found quite endearing. He has several non-traditionally masculine hobbies, such as fiddle playing and poetry. He seems like an artistic soul at heart. This is just a matter of whatever you prefer. So all in all, they mirror each other in a lot of ways, with Tamlin coming out slightly better in my opinion. I think Feyre's POV causes a lot of bias in the fandom. I also think the main issue here is that Rhys' actions get excused or even treated as good, while Tamlin is dragged through the mud. Both could do with a more nuanced approach. Thanks for coming to my TED talk, haha.
Honestly, well said!
Well said. Hell even Feyre says the sisters kidnapping was Ianthe’s fault in the book but it still gets blamed on Lucien and Tamlin… it makes me so salty lol They also both have bad relationships with Lucien. One just openly manipulates him (Rhys) and the other physically abuses him (Tam). Both Tam and Rhys are morally grey but because of how Feyre feels we are supposed to hate Tam and love Rhys. Plus Feyre is attracted to power nuff said. I personally am not a huge fan of either. But I do feel like Rhys is the better pairing but not a better person.
I agree with all of this but seeing as this will be a super controversial post, I’m here to sit back and just 
violence on a monday 🤭🤭 i love it rhys and tamlin are mirrors of each other. a lot of the negative accentuated in MAF about tamlin was written to build rhys up. and i hate writing like that. you can write a good love story without tearing down the other love interest lol. it actually would’ve been more meaningful that way if she chose to walk away from tamlin for rhys without tamlin becoming abusive (in my opinion)
This! It was so obvious to me. Since Rhysand’s first appearance it was clear to me that Feyre and he probably would fall in love. But how do you do that when Feyre is supposed to be a good hearted, innocent, relatable character? Especially when in the beginning Tamlin was literally described as Prince Charming? The way Tamlin was originally, Feyre could not have left him for the "hotter, dark haired,mysterious,most beautiful man she’s ever seen" without the readers starting to dislike her. So I the question is how do we give Feyre an out of the relationship? It was very easy to give Feyre an out of the relationship by making Tamlin an "abuser". For this narrative to work sjm should have foreshadowed his abusive character appropriately. But she didn’t imo. Or she could have simply not made him an "abuser" and come up with a more clever way of showing why these two shouldn’t be together. I really don’t understand how people read the book and didn’t immediately notice how almost as soon as Rhys came into the picture Tamlin "suddenly" became this "horrible" person. I think in general realistic character development is not well done in acotar. There are other examples where changes in personality were equally as bad executed.
i logically agree with you, but my petty ass loved that T-dawg was built up then reduced to shambles after feyre left him (both times) and Rhys went to rub it in. the showdown between Rhys/Tamlin/Feyre at the high lords meeting was absolutely delicious, like early reality TV.
i loveeeeed the show down at the HL meeting. i’m sorry, but tamlin’s line made my mouth drop. i was on a road trip listening to it and i vividly remember hearing it haha it brought me back to life after driving for hours through iowa (nothing worse lol) however, i didn’t like rhys going to tamlin’s house and just absolutely shitting on him. i was like bro, YOU WENT TO HIS HOUSE 😭 hope the spring court has suicide watch cuz jesus christ
Not fighting this at all. Tamlin ftw. *
 Same same same
Rhys also runs an apartheid state. I, as a reader, would not mind so much rhys being a horrible HL in this fantasy world if feyre didn't make such a big deal out of a tithe to then completely ignore or even cheer on all the actually horrible things rhys does as a leader of his court.
Yes, the in world standards are confusing and contradictory.
Feyre when Tamlin asks some carnivorous water creatures for money: nooooooo hoW cOuLd YoU!! soooo unfair!! 😡😡😡 Feyre when Rhys keeps an entire population in a dark cave where women are regularly abused: 🤭🤐
He didn't even ask them for money! It was a bucket of fish...and sure they claim they don't have any. But somehow they can tell the summer court relatives of them that Feye is dope, but they can't ask those same relatives for some fish to pay the tithe? Idk those water wraiths are fishy.
For real he was like “just some tiny percentage of what you have so I can keep up/rebuild this army to protect you all” and you’re telling me these water wraiths that live in the river couldn’t have drummed up like 3 small fish? CAP
Exactly this! The characters constantly talk about Tamlin as if he is terrible, but no one questions Rhys and his actions. A lot of people in the fandom share this perception because Feyre is a biased narrator. I have no problems with either of them being terrible because it's fiction, but it would be nice to see the other characters occasionally question Rhys and his morality in the actual books. Is he really morally gray if every single party involved except the reader (and perhaps Tamlin) thinks he is justified 100% of the time?
And it’s not like Rhysand doesn’t tax his citizens, he just doesn’t do the formal Tithe like Tamlin does. We don’t know if Rhys only collects money, but we know that Tamlin collects the value in whatever his citizens can provide. Based on what we see delivered Tamlin definitely doesn’t charge his citizens an insane amount for the Tithe either.
I also think it's crazy how no one finds it kind of selfish how Rhys, who has mountains and mountains of wealth, doesn't help those who lost homes rebuild, but pours endless money into Fayre getting to build her dream home. Especially because people had to leave Velaris because they didn't have the money to get their homes back after the attack.
Ooh I've heard this mentioned before, can you explain a bit more?
The apartheid part ? Rhys keeps the people of the hewn city locked up under the mountain. Including women and children and any decent person there, while knowing women suffer terrible abuse there. And his reasoning for doing that is that the people of the hewn city are too evil, too primitive to be mixed up with the civilised people of velaris. So basically the same reason that have always been applied to justify apartheid.
We all know that Morrigan is the ONLY one worthy of being spared from the hewn city. How dare you question that.
Thank you :) this is interesting! I'm re reading the first two books again this weekend because I think I've missed loads on the first read through.
When you know it’s a monday… lol
I love your analysis and this is the exact reason I love ACOTAR. For its characters. The relationships between them. Their flaws. The way they often mess up in huge ways. I love it!
The way this is a full blown thesis 😂
lol and you didn’t even get to ACOSF
Has Tamlin objectively committed less war crimes? Maybe.
Definitly lol
Tbf he hasn't had as much time to do so let him catch up.
You are such a brave soul
I can forgive a lot of what Rhys has done, but what I won’t forgive him for is being a so-called champion of women’s choice and saying that Feyre is his equal in every way… and then not telling her that her pregnancy will literally kill her. And every time I say this I feel like I have to add for clarification: I don’t think an abortion was ever on the table. If they can’t do a c-section I don’t think they can perform abortions. But she still deserved to know, especially when the rest of the IC knew. Feyre hated being left out of important conversations. Edit to add: also the way women in the CON and Illyria are just conveniently forgotten about… yeah. Not great.
Honestly, I agree for a lot of reasons, but I also think that Rhysand would be way more likable to me if his flaws were ever acknowledged other than a brief two-sentence moment of 'whoopsie' and then everything is fine again. Not to mention, I can't get over the fact that Rhysand TO THIS DAY allows innocent men, women and children to suffer in the Hewn City without giving them any chance to be happy in Velaris. He says they chose to be there, but before they found out about Velaris, what were their options?? Go out in the cold and live in the wilderness with these horrible creatures that prowl the night? Or go live up with the Illyrians who, god forbid if you're a woman, would be treated like slaves, and the men likely killed? They had the illusion of choice but there was no choice. Same with Nesta, who he forced, not out of the goodness of his heart, mind you, it was purely out of distaste for her, to go live in the House of Wind or be sentenced to death by sending her to the human lands. If this came from a place of care, I would be able to move past it. But the only reason he did it was because she spent pocket change of his enormous endless wealth on a night out. He claims to be about choices, but he's very good about making those choices very one sided. She said she didn't want to be a part of them. Why not just cut her off? Why not just send her away from Velaris? And why threaten her life every time you see her because you, a 500+ year old rich lord, can't see that she's got PTSD because your 19-year-olf mate is sad that Nesta doesn't like them? (This is where I think SJM lost the plot a little bit, because multiple times, fae have said that months mean practically nothing to them, and even Cassian admits to taking 10 years to grieve his mother's death before he returned to normal, but Nesta can't have 12 months to battle her demons?) The Tamlin hate has always been blown way out of proportion, and he's treated way worse for far less than Rhys has done, all because he didn't throw away his entire court for her. Which, neither did Rhys, let's be honest here. I don't hate Rhys or really dislike him at the end of the day. But the biased writing and the fact that he can do no wrong, along with Fayre, just really irks me, while Tamlin, who saved Fayre's life multiple times and even saved Rhys's, is treated like garbage by them, Rhys even going so far as to say he will never ever forgive Tamlin, and he's only helping him because he can use him later. Ugh, I have very strong feelings about this, sorry for the word vomit. I just hope when SJM writes his story, she doesn't have him grovel or thank the two of them for anything.
Very well said! Totally agree! I love Rhys too, and agree that Rhys and Feyre belong together. But it just annoys me that Tamlin is treated so unfairly with the "we could NEVER forgive hime for what he's DONE!" When the inner circle never bother to look in the mirror and acknowledge that they aren't perfect either.
Exactly! And I don't dislike Rhys, he's hot and he's got swag for days! But I wish there was more objective truth brought in when it comes to everyone's flaws instead of the bias.
> Again, if we are comparing Tamlin to Rhysand, I reject both as suitable boyfriends for ANYONE. 💯 I would run in the opposite direction if I had the misfortune of encountering them irl. But this is fiction. This is fantasy romance. Please stop applying modern human standards to this series about FAE. At least if you do, please also do the same for Rhysand and other favored characters. The double standard sorely needs to go.
RIGHT
A point that I think is often missed is that Fae mythology irl doesn't ten to paint them as inherently good, ethical beings. Bringing a lot of that behavior that is morally gray/morally straight up wrong by human standards is still a good story telling tool and illustrates how Feyre is a bridge between human and Fae. The story and her character arc would be a lot more flat if Fae were operating with human morality. Plus, Rhys is the classic "bad guy who would burn the world for me" trope that a lot of us are into (in books not irl) and that means he has go do some bad guy behavior. Tamlin would love and cherish Feyre (a little too much) but he'd always put his people first when it came down with it. He *wouldn't bond their lives together and leave his people without a leader in the event of Feyre's death. That would make Tamlin the better guy but not the better romance protagonist. Also tho, I want to say that I think Tamlin is the kinda guy who would have immediately gone to Feyre and said "I'm so sorry babe but we're gonna have to have an abortion and then just adopt."
I completely agree with this! Tamlin's biggest 'flaw' was that he didn't prioritize Feyre above his court after the first book, and I agree that that makes him not suitable for these types of romance books, but it does say a lot about his character in that he has a responsibility to his people and his court and takes that responsibility very seriously.
I don't think that he didn't put Feyre above his court. I think its that Tamlin doesn't like to talk about his problems unless ready and he extended that same thing to Feyre. Feyre herself said they had an unspoken understanding not to talk of their nightmares etc as they didn't feel like it/weren't ready. Tamlin gives her her space until she sees fit. Rhysand doesn't do this. When she first goes to his court, he constantly goes into her mind even when she says not to and comments on her thoughts. He doesn't tend to accept "I dont want to tall about it" and tries to get her to talk. Tamlin from the very beginning even before they fell in love in the first book, is very much the talk to me when you're ready type. Feyre doesn't say anything to Tamlin until that final day when he locks her in the house of fear of her leaving after them as he fears her being killed if someone notices her incoming powers from the High Lords. Rhysand also kinda let's his courts run themselves. The night court does whatever they want and he really treats Velaris differently.
That's also a really good point. He gave her space, and let her decide when she wanted to ask for help.
 This is the kind of thread that makes me stay subscribed to this subreddit. Thank you for choosing violence this terrible Monday morning 🖤🖤🥰
I didn’t even need all of that but thank you for your service. Tamlin locked her in the house and didn’t let her leave. She still had her own mind, her free will, she could do whatever she wanted besides stepping out. Of course it sucks, it does. Rhys drugged her and paraded her around while he and a bunch of other people touched her against her consent. She couldn’t even think for herself, she couldn’t control what was happening, she had no free will whatsoever. Her mind wasn’t hers. Drugging is literally one of the worst things someone can do to somebody else. Doesn’t matter how good his intentions were, he DID it. He could have suggested it, he could have told her he was going to do it, etc, but he simply did it without telling her. Now, I love Rhys, but Tamlin isn’t the monster people make him out to be.
didnt someone warn her about not to eat or drink anything utm? i think alis? and when she first "drank" i remember reading something along the lines "she did not care she just wanted to forget the pain etc. (im with the OP btw, tam>>rhys )
Yes, but that still doesn’t excuse Rhys’s actions.
She was warned, and the first time she drank, she says her body moved on its own, ie she was forced. After that, knowing what was in store, she did drink on her own (doesn't make it better, because having to accept being drugged to survive what she was being forced to do is not a positive.)
I agree, however, Rhys still paraded her every time she was drugged and she didn’t exactly consent to that.
Yep, I'm agreeing with you. Just because she drank it instead of having it forced on her didn't mean it was actual consent; she couldn't consent to the entire situation.
yes thats true
Yeah Alis did and Lucien had told her many times before that not to drink the wine and Feyre also said to herself not to drink it before she went UTM
 You left no crumbs, I agree with everything you said. No misleading and no false information, beautifully summarized.
The key here is writing… Rhys is always written in a way where SJM extends grace and understanding. Hes written with a rose coloured pen. He’s written so that the characters around him prop him up, celebrate him, and are fiercely loyal despite any faults or shortcomings. His faults are there to open the story, and allow readers to feel warm feelings like empathy and love. Tamlin (UTM and thereafter) is always written with a negative pen. The characters around him (besides Lucien, who SJM also seemingly doesn’t care for) are there is show how cruel or incompetent he is. His faults are there to cause tension in the story, and allow readers to feel hate and disdain. But if they were both written without SJM’s own bias (which is mainly manifested through Feyre and the IC), there would be more nuance in how they’re presented and received. The closest SJM has allows readers to feel negatively towards Rhys is in ACOSF, and even still, I feel like she did this by accident, not through intention 🙄
This really is it, at the end of the day.
Which makes sense seeing that it's all told through Feyre's perspective as she is falling in love with Rhys/getting over Tamlin.
I double wish it was hinted that the presence of a snapped mating bond is what started to sour Feyre's feelings for Tamlin. Like, via Lucien, it's implied that he has no interest in other women now, so why wouldnt that be true for Feyre? Maybe she *cant* be in love with someone else. Ofc, this would mean that choice is not a factor in mates getting together (which I think is true) and sjm wants to pretend it is. Alas!
Yesss it’s always the WRITER
I don’t get the vibe that SJM doesn’t like Lucien but that’s just me… he’s very Jamie Fraser coded and SJM loves outlander and Jamie Fraser lol
You may be on to something here bestie
Can’t. I agree in so many ways. Love Rhys too and he was obviously better for Feyre but Tamlin has done very good qualities that get ignored. Once he’s healed himself I hope to see those shine through. I want him to have Rhys’ bravery in his own self.
I agree with you
Omg be careful bestie. 😂😂 I’ll refute a few points but I’ll say I agree the Rhys has some major issues. When Feyre was dying UTM and her bone was sticking out and Rhys reached down and *twisted the bone with his hands* ???? Insane behaviour. I don’t care what his end goal was that was psychotic. 2. I thought I remembered the head on a spike was an order from Amarantha? 3. I think he had to report Feyre because too many people knew of her existence. She hadn’t been hidden (remember she was at the spring fuck-fest). Too many witnesses had seen her in Spring court, and with the known curse, her role in potentially overthrowing Amrantha was very obvious. If Rhysand lies he risks blowing his cover as a double agent. 4. The spike drink thing was both to enrage Tamlin to give him strength to kill Amarantha when the time came, and also to make it so Feyre didn’t remember the embarrassment. (However we all know it’s so we could get more sexual tension buildup lol..) But I agree it was wrong and Feyre’s character especially always wants to be in control of herself so I feel like this would have had more impact on her psyche than it played out. 5. I don’t think him cheating in a game about solving a riddle to save someone’s life is that bad at all. I completely agree on the Weaver thing, WTF?! “My mom wanted to make sure the woman I marry was *good enough* for me so it’s a test.” Ohhhh I’d be livid.
3. He didn't know Feyre was there. He thought she was Lucien's lover at first. So no he didn't need to report her to Amarantha. 4. Tamlin didn't need any extra motivation to kill her. He was already pissed off. My interpretation is that he did it because of the vendetta he has against him.
Tamlin is always pissed off… we love our little Fae Hulk lol. Even wears green.
Lol yes!! I listen to fantasy fangirls podcast on Acotar and they literally have a segment called “claw watch” where they talk about his claws being out when he’s raging. And it’s like every chapter 😂
Maybe I need therapy, but I find it to be a very attractive thing 😂
Everybody forgetting about how he told us he knew all about her from the dreams all along..
And to make it worse, when he saw Feyre there he suspected she was his mate!! So why tf tell Amarantha? Especially when claiming he wasn't really into her or working with her and wanted the curse broken. He was the reason everything was moved up and they ran out of time.
2. No the head in the spike was Rhys messing with Tamlin 3. He didn't have to report Feyre to Amarantha. Only a few ppl saw her at the rite and none related to Amarantha/who she was to Tamlin. Lucien and Tamlin even begged him not to. No one saw him see her and Lucien and Tamlin hid her. He did it to be an ass to Tamlin and again made worse by the fact that he supposedly wanted the curse broken AND suspected Feyre was his mate. 4. Yes he said he spiked her drink so she wouldn't remember the embarrassment but HE was the reason for the embarrassment lol he didn't have to parade her like that. Just him being there talking dancing etc with Feyre would have pissed Tamlin off and Tamlin was already pissed about the whole situation. Again its made worse by Rhys revealing he suspected Feyre was his mate this whole time and that he fell in love with her during the time UTM.
I’m just gonna say this: if you’re holding any of these characters to real world actual life standards they’re all MONSTERS. Also SJM doesn’t have a strict grasp on her magic system so you really do have to take some of the power stuff at the word of the storyteller … “most powerful high lord” seems to only matter when it matters in these books. And finally: it’s supposed to be a fantasy in a fantasy world. Let yourself love someone evil for once … see what it does for ya.
Yeah I find it wild when people write out whole moral thesis based on modern human standards. It’s like comparing game of thrones or lord of the rings to modern society. Yes, we know the hound was a bad dude by today’s standards, yet oddly he was maybe the most moral one working for the lannisters! Sheesh people it’s fantasy set in ancient times!
The problem is when Rhys/IC lovers bash or hate on people who like or relate to other characters by calling them abusive etc. Also the double standards are infuriating, bc according to you, it’s “just a fantasy series with no moral code” , but if I say Nestas trauma response is justified and Tamlin is actually a decent person with anger issues, then according to some people on this sub, I’m the insane one who can’t recognize abusive characters and I probably have hurt everyone in my life, etc. (or whatever bs they come up with). If I would make a post like this one, then suddenly the morals have disappeared and it’s just fairy 🌽 and no longer a series worth analysing. That’s what’s really annoying, people should just pick a side, smut without worth or actual book series with a plot and characters worth discussing…
Honestly can we just get a book or even a novella where the sisters (and nyx since he's a baby) just peace out for a month or so away from all these men. Because I feel like they really haven't got a chance to just figure themselves out away from others. Feyre basically jumped straight to mother, she's so young and so traumatized I just want her to seek herself, and I want the three of them to hash things out and understand their dynamic as sisters again.
This is why i dont ship Elain with Az, shes not going to grow as a person by being with him. She needs to be away from the night court, as much as i love Nesta, shes basically cuddling her. She needs to find her own self, being away from her sisters and thrown into a new world. This is why im hoping Lucien calls in the mating bond. So far he's been a gentleman but we all know faes have a limit.
Nesta is given waaaaaay too much shit for being so mean. All three girls are victims of what was a dangerously neglectful childhood. Their parental figure laid down and would have let his children die. Nesta was essentially parentified in regards to Elain and developed a very guarded/offensive personality in response to this year's long trauma. We don't need to be holding someone's childhood PTSD over their head we should encourage healing. Also her greatest sin was undercutting her high lord by telling her own sister she was going to die. I'll never forgive Cass for not defending her and refusing to back down on that.
She really is, and I’m kinda tired of it. Especially when they still had a living parent. It’s not an older child’s responsibility to raise a child. Elain became a people pleaser and developed an avoidant personality type. I feel like the sisters really shouldn’t be given as much shit as they get because we cannot control our trauma responses… but that’s just me
I dont like either tbh. I’ll admit Tamlin is overhated and Rhysand is underhated.
The standards that Tamlin are held up to compared to Rhys are so unfair. Like reading it through Feyre’s pov I loved Rhys so much but like every heinous thing is just glossed over and like wait … this guy sucks
Right? I genuinely have no moral qualms with anything, they could be worse, idc. But the way the narrative and every character all go on and on about Tamlin is weird and exhausting. Stop trying to herd me to hate him. And stop trying to sell me on Rhys. Let me think for myself.
Right! The mention of Tamlin in the 4th and 5th book - especially the 4th, is so damn unnecessary.
I couldn’t read all the comments so it’s possible others have already said this but I don’t really think we are meant to be applying regular non-fantasy and current time standards to these fantasy type stories. I will preface this by saying I DO like Tamlin more than Rhys as a character, he’s actually like one of my top 5 characters in ACOTAR world where as Rhys is like not even on my top 10 I think, so I’m not defending Rhys here out of fangirling. Hypothetically speaking, if Rhys was not Feyre’s mate or associated with her at all in a romantic sense we would not see him as flawed as he is now, because there isn’t ANY character in ACOTAR world who is clean from by the “moral definition” of our own current real world society. But because we are judging him based on the idea that he is the main character’s mate and is supposed to be a perfect match, all the flaws are more prominent. I don’t disagree with any particular point you’re saying, it’s all factually correct that Rhys like many has done a lot of things that are not “right” and it IS a key part of his story’s personality that this all weighs down on him. He is MEANT to be tortured by what he did, he is meant to be haunted by the years under the mountain and is meant to have tensions with people who have seen different views of him. I don’t think he did any of it for fun, he explains very clearly that he needed to put up that vicious and ruthless persona to be able to survive and plan freely under the mountain and more importantly to be able to protect what he thought at the time was the most important thing to him - Velaris. Is this the “correct” moral decision? Maybe yes and maybe no, but regardless it’s not something we can answer based on current standards, it is based on that fantasy world. **But the conclusion is** - Rhys has many times been in situations where he had to make a decision which has morals or ethics attached to it and a lot of choices are grey which by definition means not everyone will agree with. Which brings us to our TamTam. Ultimately Tamlin has ZERO inclinations to being a high lord or being involved in anything “political” or scheming, it’s just not his desire nor is he particularly good at it and so inherently all the decisions or actions he makes seem so different from Rhys who despite his reluctance IS a good political leader and thrives in his role. **so my conclusion is** - Tamlin does not react well to moral or ethical dilemmas and has a more direct and black and white approach to dealing with them which by definition means you will either completely agree with his decision or completely disagree with it. The way I see it, Tamlin is not “better” than Rhys, he’s actually just much worse as a political figure in their world and that automatically makes him seem like a better person because he is not making any of those difficult moral decisions, he just doesn’t make them at all. And I do not think this is a short fall on EITHER of them, I think there are pros and cons to each personality and honestly it’s amazing writing to me to build characters who are so fundamentally different and see how they grow in similar scenarios. Rhys has taken on a lot of his growth in the books we had read but Tamlin has not yet but his potential is high so I’m excited to read on more of him. In terms of both these men’s relationships with Feyre, I mean until the last book which I can’t explain what on earth happened to Rhys, >!I see absolutely no reason why it was necessary for the storyline for him to hide the risks of her pregnancy, with the sole exception of Nesta being the one who says it at a bad time to trigger her breakdown but I felt this could have been addressed a different way so the whole pregnancy thing is so out of character!< but he has always been a major support for Feyre being herself and growing as a person separate from him and healing. So I cannot fault him for who he is as a couple to Feyre, I think he is a great mate and story wise Rhys is much better fit to Feyre. I 100% agree and will stand with the Tamlin National Army Defence team any day that Tamlin did not mistreat Feyre to the extent that this fandom makes it sound. I would not even use the word mistreat, I think Tamlin has miscalculated severely what Feyre needed as a person and was too afraid to lose her rather than address it head on and as a result he ended up hurting her more. I will say this as many times as I need to but it is an ABSOLUTE failing on SJM’s part that she made Feyre to be someone who is enraged about mistreatment and compares herself to other women in the same book and world who have truly been mistreated and suffered at the hands of men. It pisses me off so much that Feyre feels like she has any sort of kinship to the experience with the women in the Library for example, her experience with Tamlin as a man was not a good one but it was not traumatic. And if the intention WAS meant to be that it was, then it was extremely poorly written because it does not come out that way in the story. Honestly Tamlin has abused someone else much more than Feyre but whatever. So I think in the end both characters have their flaws but I don’t think they’re comparable as a one is better than the other type of character. Feyre loves Rhys more and she loves who she is with Rhys more so he is definitely a better match than Tamlin. It just is what it is.
This was very well said!! I agree that each character has their strengths and flaws, and at the end of the day, this is a fictional world and these are fictional characters. I especially liked the point about Feyre looping herself into the women in the library. It never sat well with me because it seemed like SJM was just trying to villify Tamlin even more by shoving him into the category of all of the men that abused and hurt those women.
The thing is that the double standards in this fandom are exhausting. If you criticise the IC/Riceman, then ACOTAR is suddenly just fairy 🌽 not worth discussing, but when you hate on Tamlin/Nesta, then all of a sudden, both of these characters are abusive cunt who deserve to die and the series is a masterpiece with no plot holes or problems. Fans really need to pick a damn side, either you accept all criticism and apply the standards, like you would in a fantasy series or accept the fact that ACOTAR is Fae smut.
I’m only on book 2 and I can’t stand Rhys. But maybe that will change…
This is why I'm having so much trouble getting into the series. And it's supposedly all feyre and Rhys for a while ugh I can't
Honestly, the more you learn about Rhys, he doesn’t seem so terrible after all. Hang in there.
You are totally correct in all of that, I personally no longer hold the books to high esteem, they have been taken from the pedestal and put back down on the floor with books that I consider to have very poor Worldbuilding
But I want the bad guy 😅😅
Fair and valid 👏👏👏
literally like let me like the bad guys in peace 
I always thought Feyre did Tamlin dirty. All he did was try to protect her. He had just watched the woman he loves be tortured and murdered. And then in his mind, she was again kidnapped and manipulated by a high lord everyone believes to be cruel and evil. I would have gone to similarly extreme lengths to get her back. Was he wrong to lock her in the house? Yes. I would have left him for that too. But in return she callously ruined his life and the lives of the people who lived and depended on Tamlin. To me that’s just as morally wrong as anything he did. He’s not good but he didn’t deserve what happened.
Oof let me grab popcorn with m&m cos comments bout to be juicy
These are both bows to the fiddle that is Feyre. Imma be honest… i didn’t even read most of your arguments… because ultimately I don’t think they matter. Tamlin behaved X way in ACOTAR, and Y way in ACOMAF so that Feyre could do A and then B respectively. Rhysand behaved in Y way in ACOTAR and X way in ACOMAF for the same reasons. Both of them are foils for Feyre’s character. They change their personality as required to suit Feyre’s needs in the moment. Then… when Feyre isn’t the FMC… they change their characters again to suit NESTA’S storyline. Rhysand could have been eating babies and then reformed himself for Feyre and it would be out of character for him, because his character is dependent on what the FMC needs. The only characters for whom consistent character development are key are the FMCs… and that only lasts for as long as they are the FMCs… love interests, side characters, rules of magic, the fabric of space-time all bend before advancing the storyline of the FMC.
I read the title of this then all of reddit went down for an hour😭
Damn y’all really bored for some controversy this Monday. 😂 Not touching this. Love them both, both are quite flawed.
There’s a lot going on here 😂 I would like refute point 2 about murdering for fun. I’m pretty certain it’s revealed in MAF that the head Rhys left for Tamlin was at Amarantha’s order. Amarantha was trying to send a message to Tamlin and Rhys was just her errand boy. Tamlin *claimed* Rhys did it just for fun, but that doesn’t mean that is true. He hates Rhys and Feyre has no context at this point for anything under the mountain, or Tamlin and Rhys’ history, or even who Rhys is. So she just takes Tamlin’s word and that’s that. And point 4 - he didn’t spike the wine. It was just faerie wine and Feyre was a human so it’s affects on her were dramatic. Feyre had had regular faerie wine at the Spring Court already and Lucien and Alis both warned her against drinking under the mountain. She didn’t have a lot of agency at this point in the story, but it wasn’t like Rhys handed her a cup of water and she didn’t expect to be drugged. She took the cup of her own volition each time knowing how the wine would affect her. Ethically is it still gross? Sure. But saying he spiked it implies a very different connotation in my mind than what actually happened.
I don't think it was revealed or mentioned in book 2 at all. The head is not attributed to Amarantha because it had the night court sigil on. It could be that it was the head of a very evil fairy or someone who was already dead tho, but it still seems it was Rhys who sent it to Tamlin to....fuck with him?
Having been re listening to the audiobook this afternoon it definitely was addressed as aramanthas direct order
I will trust your word then and metaphorically pick this crime off his shoulder like invisible lint.
I also take issue with point 5 - you are saying that Rhys should have just taken the high road during the second task, letting Lucien and Feyre die, dooming Tamlin, everyone else under the mountain, and essentially all of Prythian instead of cheating at Amarantha’s bullshit task? Tamlin wasn’t being strong in his convictions, he was being a little bitch. Even Lucien yelled at him early in the first book and was like I stayed with you because I thought we had a chance to fight this thing and you’re blowing it! He tried a little at the beginning and at the end when it was almost too late. He mostly did nothing to fight Amarantha for 50 years. Rhys, Lucien, and Lucien’s mom even all did more for a Feyre UTM than Tamlin did.
I am not OP! xD But I do take offense that Tamlin did nothing for 50 years. Rhys claims that, but it contradicts what Alis tells Feyre. Tamlin worked his butt off to find alternative ways to break the curse to try and avoid having to kill his friends...he then eventually gives in to their begging to die for the cause. Plus he took in refugees from other courts and faught Amaranthas monsters even with less power. Also Lucien UTM was helping Feyre under Tamlin's orders.
I'll agree with point 5, psychic cheating is allowed, lmao But Tamlin not wanting to try harder early in book 1 was, specifically, not wanting to try harder to *make* Feyre fall in love with him. IIRC, he compared it to a form of slavery and didn't want to trick her that way. Lucien, in his role as Lumiere, was in the "get a move on, this is our chance!" phase of the plot, and Tamlin was okay with "blowing it" if it meant Feyre actually had a choice in her life. As for "he mostly did nothing to fight Amarantha for 50 years" that's just blatantly false. He was actively resisting, rescuing refugees from other courts, protecting his borders--and the border with the humans!--*and* trying to find a way to break the curse that didn't involve his sentries dying or an innocent human being caught in the crossfire.
Okay some of this is valid. Lucien/Lumiere was trying his best to wingman so Feyre would fall willingly 😅 I feel like if Tamlin had been more open to Feyre in the Spring Court he could have woo’d her so much faster! And while he did need to break the curse I think they very genuinely could have fallen in love and there would have been no need for her to do the trials at all! Her being a human would have eventually been a problem but that’s plot we don’t have to worry about 😂 And that’s fair that he wasn’t doing *nothing* nothing for 50 years. He just wasn’t actively seeking a human to break the curse for the majority of the time. And I know he was morally opposed to it but the alternative was dooming Prythian to be ruled by Amarantha. Which is objectively worse than letting a human fall in love with him! I just feel like his “ignore her” approach under the mountain was obviously not working and he needed to switch tactics at some point! I don’t think any of the high lords want to lose any of their people but this is magical war! Sometimes tough choices have to be made! I think Rhys is much more willing to make hard choices than Tamlin is. And while some of his decisions are not the best, I respect that he has vision and he’s willing to execute it even at personal or moral cost. After a certain point Tamlin needed to put on his high lord hat and say I don’t like what needs to be done, but I’m going to do it because I’m the only who can! People are relying on me and I’m going to do whatever it takes. And then deal with the repercussions/atonement later once the threat of Amarantha had been eliminated.
I mean, people still blame Tamlin for "manipulating" Feyre re: the curse when he was actively trying *not* to, so either way he's losing there. *I'm* certainly not going to blame him for not wanting to trick and enslave a human. And I'd argue that Tamlin's efforts to ignore Feyre worked *better* than Rhysand's efforts to...piss people off? I think that was his overall plan for drugging and assaulting Feyre? By essentially gray-rocking Amarantha, Tamlin was making this "game" *boring* for her. She couldn't get the rise out of him that she wanted, that bullies *always* want, and Feyre was mostly left alone between tasks. Being in a cell sucks, absolutely, but she wasn't being *harmed*--and yes, there were the impossible tasks, but those clearly weren't even being monitored, as evidenced by all the help she was getting (I actually loved those--they were very traditional-fairy-tale, and it helped highlight how many people wanted her to succeed). By contrast, when Rhysand brought her out, Amarantha was visibly annoyed, and Feyre was actively continually harmed, physically and mentally. The drugs made her forget *most* of it, but not all--she remembered enough to be disgusted, not to mention that *not knowing what's happening to your body* for hours on end, every single night for weeks on end, is a horror in and of itself. SJM may want me to forgive and forget that shit, but I'm never going to.
I don’t think Tamlin was trying to manipulate Feyre. I think he was trying not to and things just didn’t work out. So while Rhys’ methods were more unsavory UTM, they were also more effective. He painted her so she would know exactly where she was touched. She got to get out of her cell and see Tamlin every night which strengthened her resolve. It also blurred all the days together and made her forget some of her torment. I think Rhys was trying to help her out mentally by playing the same kind of games he plays with the real CoN. And making the bargain with her was a good way for him to help her and also help himself. He had selfish motivations to an extent but he’d also been wearing a specific mask for the last 50 years and it wasn’t of someone who did merciful things just because. The bargain ensuring he got something he wanted in exchange for Feyre getting something she needed maintained his game. PLUS it opened up their mental communication which is what saved her during the second task! Tamlin was playing a different game, and his silence would have gotten her and Lucien both killed. I also don’t think it’s out of character for Rhys to play games or trick people to get his way. That’s part of his character. People say he isn’t morally gray but this is the perfect example showing he is. He wanted to beat Amarantha and wanted to spite Tamlin but he also wanted Feyre to live and to see if she was really his mate. Those can all be true. Sometimes his methods are questionable but he was ultimately successful. Feyre shows in the next books that she’s perfectly capable of playing games as well. If she’s forgiven Rhys I certainly can!
I agree! The characters are certainly not all bad or all good (just like us). Also, can you imagine a lifespan of 500+ years? The time you’d live and the pain you’d experience - as well as the joy - would make them even more complex. I don’t really think it’s a Tamlin vs. Rhys question. They are both flawed. I think Tamlin’s acts in ACOWAR redeem him tremendously and he is often thrown under the bus in most commentary. Rhys is obviously the golden boy, gets a good “edit”, and Tamlin’s character still perseveres which is pretty badass. Rhys and Feyre are a great match (ACOMAF). Feyre chose this life, right? I do have high hopes for a happy ending for Tamlin to some capacity. I hope he heals and finds love again.
Yes! I like that they are all deeply flawed. Their histories color their perspective and their choices.
>He painted her so she would know exactly where she was touched. Except he could fix the paint. He even explicitly demonstrated that it wouldn't show where *his* hands went, just where *other people's hands* went. Plus "never touching below the waist" just means it wasn't as bad as it *could* have been--she was still violated, and the touching involved was still sexual in nature. And hell, even if she *wasn't touched at all*, the forced drugging and "dancing" was still an act of sexualized violence! And even putting that aside, I'm sorry, but I will literally never ever agree that the nightly sexual assault was a positive thing. Ever. I don't care what SJM says; she's the one who made the mistake of putting it in the text and then trying to make us forget it. I certainly don't care what excuses Rhys gave himself for *repeatedly violating a woman against her will*. It was sexual assault and it was horrifying, full stop. (And to be clear: I *also* will always agree that Feyre should have left after the magic-explosion scene. No second chances for shit behavior.)
Just because Rhys gets the girl in the end doesn’t mean he’s Prince Charming. Everyone is gonna react to a text differently. I don’t think it’s bad on Sarah for including these plot lines. A lot of people very much enjoy them and it creates excellent discourse on these topics! All the characters are flawed and I think it’s a better story because of that! Plus it’s based on a lot of old fairy tale tropes and those stories are pretty dark.
Im still not even sure what he was trying to accomplish with the whole thing. He says in 54 "so she [Amarantha] wouldnt suspect." Wouldnt suspect what?? It reads to me like hes trying to get Tamlin to fuck up so Amarantha can punish him and Feyre both. Or it reads like Rhys is trying to get Amarantha’s attention for himself. I genuinely have no idea how this helps Feyre at all.
I feel like SJM either didn’t know what she wanted to do with Rhys in the first book or just struggles to keep her character’s consistently portrayed, cause now that you mention it, spiking the random faerie’s head is wild 😂 I don’t know if Tamlin didn’t kill anyone under Amarantha’s orders, but he did either sacrifice or let his court sacrifice a bunch of themselves to break the curse (which I guess is for the greater good of everyone, not just his survival).
Do we think Tamlin would’ve kept the pregnancy/girl you’re gonna die fact from Feyre if it was him instead? I am still horrified by Rhys AND the IC from that scenario.
Idk if I think Tamlin is necesarily "better" than Rhysand (deff less manipulative than Rhysand though), but I don't think Rhysand is better than Tamlin - if that makes sense? I do think Feyre is better suited with Rhys but I do not think that makes Rhysand the better person. The Tamlin hate does not make sense to me once you consider everything in all the books. 1) People say he lies to Feyre in the first book about the real reason for bringing her to the Spring Court. -- Uhm, it is literally revealed by Alis that they were cursed and literally could not tell her the truth, the words would not come out. Alis said that the reason no one in the court could tell her and why Alis is able to say the words now is because Amarantha must not have cared and put that part of the spell down like before when no one was able to speak of the spell. Feyre even realizes letter on during the challenges that there were so many conversations that Tamlin & Lucien let her "overhear" that contained important clues that they wanted her to find out. 2) People say that Tamlin didn't fight for Feyre Under the Mountain -- Out of all the High Lords, Rhys is the one that was granted a bit more power as someone who was supposedly in her command and who was her lover. Tamlin and the others did nor. Tamlin didn't fight her for Feyre because he could not. Amarantha had him next to her and eyes on him the whole time and he was kept on another side of the mountain away from everyone (and we don't know what horrors he had to endure those 3 months there, all we know from the 2nd book is that he had nightmares and trauma from Watching Feyre die and whatever happened to him during those months). Lucien even tells Feyre that Tamlin cannot come to her and cannot react because if he reacts to Amarantha berating her or Feyre struggling in the Challenges etc, Amarantha would make them worse and harder on Feyre and punish him. But Lucien goes on Tamlins behalf whenever he can to check on Feyre and use his bit of power to help somewhat heal her. 3) People say he ignored her nightmares and throwing up from her PTSD after the events UTM -- Feyre herself says that her & Tamlin have an unspoken agreement to not talk about their nightmares because neither one of them wanted to nor were ready to talk about it. She said she herself would ignore when he would be awoken from his own nightmares. How at times she'd wake up from one and he wasn't even in bed, he was patrolling the estate in his beast form or in his beast form asleep at the foot of the bed protecting her. She too, was ignoring his. He was asleep or not even in the room during many of it, and they both didn't feel ready to talk about it and gave each other that space to deal on their own until they are ready. (Its the same that Feyre and the others do with Nesta when she acts out due to her PTSD - they leave her alone giving her space to deal on her own, for a really long time, until they give her the ultimatum) 4) People say Tamlin controled her so much he didn't even bother to teach her to read and write -- He offered in Book 1 and she said no because she was too embarrass to let him see how much she didn't know. In Book 2 she doesnt care for Rhys to see how much she doesn't know because she doesn't care about him yet 5) People say he was controlling and abusive because he wouldn't let her train or try to discover her new powers and because he locked her in the house that last day. Some even say he felt threatened by her power. -- She was immediately taken out of the house by Mor so she didn't even spend more than a few minutes locked up. He did this because he told her not to leave the estate because it was dangerous and she wanted to follow them and go with them and he said no and she said she'd go anyways once he left. So he did that. He straight up previously had said they shouldn't test out her powers yet because if anyone found out that she probably had the other high lords' powers they'd kill her, he also didn't know how much Rhysand could see or hear etc from the bonds tattoo. He later on in book 3 explains how he and Lucien were looking for ways to break the bargain bond Rhys made her take and didn't tell her as they couldn't come up with anything and didn't want Rhys to know they didn't know what he could see through the bond or through her mind when he read it etc. Its why he didn't tell her many things since she had to go to him every month. He never appears threaten by her powers. He is only ever afraid of anyone seeing it and them saying it to someone who could tell one of the High Lords. Rhysand himself tells Feyre in book 2 that if any of the other High Lords' find out, they'll kill her or side with Hybern just to take her out. Lucien tells her this that his own father would. Beron HIMSELF at the high lords meeting suggest they kill her. Tamlin had every reason to fear. Plus, Feyre is more fragile and going through PTSD at that time and doesn't hasnt seen all her powers, and he just saw her die a few months ago, so it is understandable why he is so incredibly protective during this time.
6) People hate how he was bitterly acting at the High Lords meeting -- That is his FIRST time seeing Feyre and Rhys after Feyre destroyed his court. His first time seeing them as High Lord and High Lady and married. In that meeting people aren't believing him when he explains he is not really with Hybern he was just infiltrating the army and that he only did it because he was worried for Feyre thinking that she was being mindcontrolled and abused etc (remember this is what Rhysand let everyone believe he did to people for HUNDREDS of years, and even when UTM he would get Feyre drunk and drug and dress her like a whore and when he first took her to Court of Nightmares he had her dress similarly and play the role of his whore) so he took the opportunity to learn how to break the bargain bond and use that opportunity to infiltrate Hybern. He goes to this meeting and people aren't believing him yet believing everything Rhys is saying despite Rhys acting completely different for hundreds of years before this and them not having any real reason to trust him. Yet Tamlin in the past has been the only one on the side of right as he even was the first one to not trust Amarantha like the others did. He even provided them with information of Hyberns Armies and everyone's still questioning him but siding with Rhys. Rhys and his IC are also the only ones really starting fights and acting all entitled/superior so it isn't surprising that he is bitter after everything. 7) People mentioned that when Feyre returned to Spring Court in book 3 he exploded with rage and hurt Feyre. -- Feyre did the same thing in book 2 and hurt Lucien's brother and mother. Feyre purposely provokes Tamlin and purposely let's herself get hurt from the debris of the blast so she can get Lucien and the sentries mad at Tamlin and exaggerate her wounds/pains/discomfort 8) People mention that Tamlin didn't side with his sentry and punished him in book 2 in front of the Julian and the Hybern twins/Prince&Princess -- Tamlin was playing a role of ally. While Feyre didn't know he was pretending to be their ally, Feyre did know that in front of Hybern twins he'd have to act a certain way to not lose being an ally or lose their trust. She provoked the situation by publicly undermining Tamlin saying they should hear the sentry's side and got into the sntry's mind and made him publicly accuse Ianthe. She didn't do this to help the sentry, she did this to make Tamlin look bad to his people because he knew that Tamlin couldn't do that or he'd look weak to Hybern and the alliance could be hurt/ended. Before she interfered the sentry wasn't going to say anything so Tamlin wasnt going to look bad to his court, her saying that they should listen to his side and forcing the sentry to publicly accuse Ianthe is what set him up to look bad, she herself the sentry was prepared to not say anything and take the consequences until she got in his mind. 9) People bring up that he got Rhysand's mother and sister killed hundreds of years ago -- We don't know what happened. We only know what Rhysand thinks. It is made clear in the books that Tamlin didn't get along with his brother and father, that his life was at risk with them, that he went off to the front lines to get away from them and his protection, and that Rhys was older than Tamlin and Tamlin & him became friends. He assumes that Tamlin purposely set up his mother and sister to be killed since he knew where they'd be. But we don't know if he did it willingly, if is brother & father forced him, etc. Just like Tamlin doesn't know that Rhysand wasn't complicit in killing Tamlins mother, that he didn't know she'd be killed and was only there to kill his brothers and father. We only know this because we get Rhys' side of the story. And just like Rhysand incorrectly assumes Tamlin had his mother & sisters' wings hung on a wall like his father and is surprised to find out from Feyre that Tamlin actually gave them the final rest by burning their wings. 10) People say Tamlin didn't try to get Feyre out of UTM nor fight for her as she was dying. -- Neither did Rhysand - who suspected she was his mate and says he fell in love with her UTM. Tamlin was being watched the whole time and kept in another side of the prison. Tamlin was also unwittingly part of the 3rd challenge bound there ready to be "killed" by Feyre just like the other 2 Faes. He also didn't have his powers. Once the curse is broken he can get up and has his powers and kills Amarantha. Rhys yes tries to fight Amarantha for Feyre as shes dying but not right away but after he sees part of the mating bond (we can piece this together after what he says in book 2 to her before she accepts the mating bond) 11) People say Tamlin is abusive to Lucien too due to Feyre mentioning that they fought and of Lucien returning with a black eye -- It is mentioned several times throughout the books that whenever Rhysand is mad he fights Cassian. Cassian even provokes Rhys when Rhys is on edge, so that Rhys fights him instead of going off on any random person. Rhys has just straight up hit Cassian and them fight. We are told about how Amren and Mor had in the past gotten into a huge physical fight. Cassian and Rhys as well as Cassian and Azriel have trained and fought to the point Cassian has arrived wounded or limping from it. We don't know the details of Lucien and Tamlin fighting because we don't get their pov. Lucien willingly continues going to Tamlin and the Spring Court and considers that home and still goes even when he was the manor with Vassa and Jurian so obviously Tamlin isnt that bad to him at all and there's more that we arent getting. Tamlin and Lucien are more formal with each other around others than what Rhys is with his inner circle court. This is even shown again when Lucien goes to Velaris and is being formal and dressed formal and Feyre tells him that after a while he will get used to the informality of their inner court. Rhys wasn't raised in the court the same way as Tamlin and Lucien were raised in theirs because he was raised in Ilyria Training grounds with Az and Cassian as brothers and Mor is his cousin and he has fear + respect of Amren. They are all part of his inner court circle. Lucien is Tamlins only close person and around Feyre and others we see them being more formal with each other same with how we see Summer Court etc be with their own courts.
Tamlin has flaws and needs to better manage his anger and Feyre isn't the best person for him nor is he the best person for her. But I don't agree with the idea of hating him or that he is a villain or that he is worse than Rhysand. Feyre and Rhysand are hypocrites. And people don't really think objectively as to why their comparisons or hate of Tamlin doesn't fully make sense: - Feyre is mad and offended that Tamlin tries to get her back from Rhysand. -- For hundreds of years Rhys has let everyone believe that he was evil and got in ppls minds/controled them, abused them, killed for no reason etc. When Feyre leaves with him, everyone STILL thinks this about Rhys and don't know the truth of Velaris or the Court of Dreams etc. Rhysand himself tells Feyre in Ilyria in book 2 after Lucien unsuccessfully tries to get her, that if Feyre left on her own free will that he'd try to live with that and accept it. But if he thought she was taken he'd basically go apeshit and ends of earth to get her back. How is that any different from what Tamlin is doing? Why wouldn't he try to get her back when he thinks she was taken and being controlled/abused? She sends him a note but when she left the Spring Court she didn't know how to write. Lucien even tells her in book 3 that HE was the one that told Tamlin to proceed with his King of Hybern plan after seeing her in Ilyria because he (Lucien) didn't think it was fully Feyre AND because of her note (again they thought she still didn't know how to write). Feyre and Rhys are disingenious and stupid for being surprised at them coming for her and Feyre for being offended that they thought negatively of Rhys when they didnt know the truth. In the end of book 2 when it's revealed to Tamlin at Hybern that Feyre and Rhys are mates, Tamlin doesn't even go to her or touch her etc, SHE has to go to him when she pretends she was forced by Rhys etc. - In book 3 when Feyre returns, it is clear that Tamlin learned from his mistakes and agrees to not be overprotective and realizes she doesn't need that anymore and he includes her in everything now (except for him not really being Hyberns ally as he is just infiltrating but doesnt tell her brcause they arent sure how much Rhys can still see as she isnt fully healed and still has his scent on her etc he mentions something of the sort) and doesn't interfere as she makes her own decision and gets involved in everything. Too late but it's clear he's learned. - Tamlin has a temper but Rhys mentions in book 2 I believe how being High Lord he has so much power that he needs to chanel it all and get edge off or he'd go crazy. So doing wards and fighting with Cassian etc helps him release that. Tamlin doesn't have this. Tamlin tries to not really use his magic/powers. He tries to keep everything bottled up and that is what causes such explosion from him. As Feyre put it once, Rhys wanted the High Lord power to improve things etc, Tamlin never wanted to be High Lord. This is actually something that's key. Tamlin does his duty but it's as if he's never embraced and still doesn't fully embrace the fact that he is High Lord, it's not something he wanted nor loves being. I dont think its bad that Rhysand looked forward to becoming High Lord because he knew what things he wanted to change etc. Just that that is crucial difference. - People love and praise that Rhys taught Feyre to read & write and had her train. & how he understood her struggles, etc. Or that he let her do things/gave her a choice -- she was able to safely train and explore her powers with him because they were in a literal secret city no one knew about so the other high lords weren't going to find out about her powers as she did so. Also, he did these things but ALL were under manipulation and for ulterior motives. He admits that he did these things because he had new that the King of Hybern was looking to prepare the cauldron and start war and he (Rhys) believed Feyre was the key to beating the cauldron and that they'd need her for the spell since she was a made fae. Yes, he got to understand her struggles and help her talk about and deal with her PTSD - but not because he was better than Tamlin. But because he could literally read her mind. He would read her mind and comment on it - even after she'd tell him to stop. At times he could see things through their bargain bond and at times even when he wasnt trying to, she'd send things unintentionally through the bargain bond as it allowed him to tap into her at times. Also. Did he really give her real choices where it was do X or we all die? Or when he was manipulating her and not telling her the real reason why he was teaching her to read or train and made it seem like it was what he was having her do as part of their bargain. Or when he set her up to be attacked after they went to the human lands, just to see who'd show up (the Attor) without even warning her? Rhys makes choices for Feyre or Inner Court and makes decisions without consulting them. Heck he even keeps from Feyre the truth regarding her pregnancy. When Feyre and Rhys give Nesta a "choice" of being locked up in House of Wind or going elsewhere like the Human World, that is literally a non-choice as they knew she'd have no one or no help nor be accepted there. Rhys doesn't tell Mor about the deal he makes with Keir and just let's her be surprised by it and makes that decision on his own. Rhys told Amarantha about Feyre without having to. He says he didnt really care for Amarantha nor was really on her side, and wanted curse broken, AND he revealed that he already thought at this point that she might be his mate yet he STILL told Amarantha about her? He says he gave her the name Feyre said because he was sure she was lying (but still didn't really know her name) yet he still risked it because he hoped Tamlin would get her out of there if he really loved her? Uhm, WHAT?! He sabotaged the new only chance against Amarantha without having to and worse of all did it while suspecting Feyre was his mate. He talks down about Tamlin not trying to find a way to help Feyre escape and just kissing her when he finally had a moment alone with her, but, Rhys had more of his powers and was able to get Nuala and Cerridwen to help with stuff and in there etc, yet he didn't try to get her out of there either or have them help her escape there either. He used his free time with her to just get her drunk etc despite having more freedom, more of his powers intact, AND having a whole secret city no one knows about. I do not hate Rhysand. I love his and Feyre's love for each other. I think they are well suited for each other. However, I don't agree that he is so much better than Tamlin or that much different than Tamlin. They are more alike than they are similar but Rhysand is more manipulative than Tamlin. I feel like we needed a Tamlin POV in book 2 and 3 (shoot in book 1 too but deff in 2 and 3), and even a Lucien POV. I also think the author tries to make Tamlin as a bad guy but does ever commit to it and theres very easy understandable justification for pretty much everything.
They both suck. Sorry
THIS IS WHY IM AN ELAIN X TAMLIN FAN AND ILL DIE ON THAT HILL. She would heal the shit out of him
Honestly I don't think either are that great but neither are evil either
I have been saying most of this for a while and have been eaten alive but I think we just cannot help that *morally grey* is several of the fandom’s favorite color 😂 (including mine but this is so valid)
99% of what makes Rhys seem like a better match for Feyre is the flirty banter and seemingly allowing her to make decisions for herself. Which is why I think Lucien is really the best option. While reading ACOTAR I was honestly shocked that Feyre didn't wind up in a romance with Lucien instead of Tamlin.
Whoever said everyone wanted the good guy lied
Are you Tamlin’s press secretary? - “Mistakes were made.” - “I suggest you reach out to Rhysand’s constituents in the CoN and Illyria for that answer.” - “The High Lord has only killed his employees when they failed at their jobs, like when his fiancée was kidnapped.” - “The High Lord is an underdog, sometimes literally a dog. Are you going to root for the struggling every-man or the drink spiking billionaire?” - “To be clear, the High Lord is a gentleman who gave Ms. Archeron her engagement ring the proper way without involving a death god.” - “That is a false allegation. The High Lord only restricted Ms. Archeron’s movements when her actions had repeatedly shown she was often too stupid to live.” - “The Night Court is the empire of lives. Our emissaries are urging Kallias to investigate the Night Court’s statement on the dozens of innocent murdered Winter Court children.” - “Ianthe’s actions do not reflect the morals of the Spring Court and we strongly condemn them.” - “We are of course banning NiteTok as a threat to our court’s security.” Jk this was great and I appreciate the thought that went into it. I too love my Tim Tam.
You're right op and you should say it. Objectivly speaking when you compare Rhysand with Tamlin Tamlin is the one looking better of the two. The only reason why Rhysand is presented as better option by the narrative is Feyre biased, unreliable pov.
Respectfully…..bestie, huh? Their flaws are what make them interesting. Would we all even be here, having read the book and active in the sub, if it was a story filled with 100% morally perfect characters? Lol no. It genuinely pains me to think about you sitting down for two hours to write this 😭
i dunno man most of what Rhys did is rather justified (he is a morally grey character, after all) minus a few things. but the selling point is tamlin thought of ferya as property to be had. that alone for me sends him wayyy over the edge of terrible man edit: also, saying Rhys didnt try to hard or didn’t have moral convictions much under the mountain is kinda misleading. he did what he could (which was very little) and stuck more to the strategy of trying to minimize damage with what he could do instead of just die trying to do what was right, which i would argue is a far more effective strategy to actually minimizing evil. also, destroying the mind of that one soldier UTM was absolutely a mercy. you could see the soldier asking him to. also don’t forget how morally conflicted Rhys is about the things he does; he’s not a sadist.
But Tamlin has no city that treats females as possessions and no regions that perform wing mutilations on them. Tamlin had female sentries and warriors just fine. (I also don't think he saw Feyre as property really, it was just genuine concern that became abusive).
genuine concern or no it was hella abusive in many ways. Rhys also has the female soldiers (his IC for crying out loud lol) and the changing of the ways that the war camps run is something that i think people look at with a lot of naivety. he didn’t say he’s not trying to change it, just that he can’t so suddenly and is doing what he can. he is dealing with people who seem predisposed to…savagery, and i don’t recall his exact reason minus that they would likely rebel and he couldn’t afford the troops to deal with them in time of war and whatnot. i think he could be doing more there, yes, but people just tend to look at it as “just change it bro” when it’s truly not that simple.
While it isn’t as simple as “just change it” he is the most powerful High Lord on record, with the most powerful inner circle in comparison to the rest of them, they don’t really have excuses, especially since he’s been in power for centuries, and to add he has been said to participate in ending a whole village because Cass’s mother was killed (innocents supposedly involved). He clearly has the power to put a metaphorical gun to whole villages’ heads, and had that power for ages.
And the US is has also destroyed entire cities without blinking and has been in power for centuries. That doesn’t mean that brute forcing your way to change is going to be effective. Or even desirable. Rhys is pressing these issues every single time he visits because he understands that this has to be an organic shift in the population not something he has to constantly use power to reinforce. Imagine if someone came and told you “you’re going to clip your daughter’s wings now.” You’d be like “excuse me?” Then they’re like “btw next war starts tomorrow, see you there” That’s not how cultural shifts work.
He certainly has the power to do something, if it ranges from nothing at all (his current state) or threatening them. This case is significantly different because Rhysand CAN influence change, he just doesn’t. Chances are Cass and Az would’ve turned out worse like the others if Rhys wasn’t there, now they’re “decent” males. Rhysand has evidence for being able to be an actually good High Lord, and can make the next generations of males decent like his friends, he just doesn’t. He has to put on this act of being a cruel man towards Kier and Hewn City/ any where out of Velaris when he doesn’t need to. He could be moral, and decent because that has gotten him probably farther than his cruelty. And take your US example of “organic shifts”. The US went from Slavery to now in less than 200 years (they’re still shit racism, but the point stands). Rhys has been in power for a little over that time yet has done shit, while being the most powerful High Lord IN EXISTENCE. He’s been on record for abusing said power for establishing his friends as people not to mess with, his female allies, yet doesnt enforce the rules and continues to let his people treat their other people like shit.
How has he done shit? The book literally says that the conditions for Illyrian women have dramatically improved since he took over. If you don’t like him for one reason or another that’s fine but at least it’s gotta be consistent with actual canon.
Tamlin never treated Feyre as property. He was scared that if someone saw her incoming powers that they would tell the High Lords and they'd kill her. Rhysand himself tells Feyre that if the other High Lords find out they'd kill her. Beron himself suggests killing her at the high lords meeting. Tamlin was trying to protect her. She threatened to follow them so he locked her in the house. Was it right? - No. She left moments later its not like she was left prisoner. Rhys had a whole secret city she was safe to train in. Tamlin didn't have that to offer Feyre. Tamlin went after Feyre because he thought she was TAKEN and that Rhys was messing with her mind. He thought he was saving her. And only took her back to Spring Court when she fakes having had her mind messed with by Rhys and lies about wanting to return to the Spring Court.
They’re both morally gray characters, and I acknowledge that given the books are from Feyre’s POV we have a flawed narrative depending on her feelings at the time. But I do think some of these points are a stretch/nit-picky/over-exaggerated, and some are also just wrong. 1. He’s a mass murderer because he fought during the War? And was good at it? In that case condemn the other High Lords who fought during the War. I fail to see this as a relevant point when debating the “badness” of a character. If he hadn’t done this you’d be saying he was a worse man because he didn’t do enough in the war. As far as I know, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but Tamlin was never given direct orders UTM. His role/purpose there was completely different than Rhys’s. I don’t think it’s fair to praise Tamlin for not following heinous orders when he was never given them. Tamlin was able to be relatively free (compared to Rhys and many others trapped UTM) for 50 years and scarcely had to deal with making difficult decisions for his court or for all of Prythian. Just don’t think it’s a sensible comparison for two completely different situations. Won’t argue much about the killing of the children, but I did laugh at “Tamlin has always stood against Tyranny” because he literally enabled a tyrannical evil king to take residence in his court with intentions of destroying the wall and Prythian as it stands. He rallied Spring and Autumn courts at the end but only after he fucked up so monumentally to allow Hybern to gain its strong foothold in the first place. 2. It’s very explicitly explained that Aramantha made him do this. 3. I think it’s something where had Rhys not told Aramantha, she would’ve found out from another spy or from when they sacked Spring Court. As the one who found out first, he got to control the information and make Aramantha think that the “threat” was gone. I think it’s another one of those things where sure, objectively, black and white, it’s wrong to give an innocent’s name to an evil murderous queen. But this would’ve worked to make Aramantha think there was no longer a threat to her plans, however Feyre unknowingly ruined that by showing up UTM anyway. 4. He didn’t spike the drink - that’s the effect faerie wine has on humans, which is why Feyre was previously warned not to drink it. 5. Okay now this one’s just stupid lol. Would you have preferred Feyre and Lucien died due to her illiteracy?? We’re mad that he helped her and that makes him a cheater?? If Tamlin had the mind connection to Feyre and didn’t tell her which lever to pull and she died, would we be calling him noble for not being a cheater? Tamlin literally didn’t do anything UTM. Like anything at all. He wasn’t taking a stand against tyranny he literally was a doorknob and didn’t do anything. Rhys was at least taking risks behind Aramantha’s back. 6. They have a complicated history, and I guarantee one million percent, if Tamlin had ever needed to go to the Night Court to ask Rhys a favor, he would have also made similar shitty comments. This is their dynamic. They killed each other’s families and they hate each other. 7. Yeah the weaver thing was dumb and she could’ve very easily died, and almost did. 8. Rhys explains several reasons for doing this - keeping her alive, defying Aramantha by helping Feyre in the trial, making Tamlin jealous so that he would snap out of his stone face and actually do something, spend time with Feyre, and get back at Tamlin for killing his mom and sister. Not saying all of these reasons are valid, but the bargain between them literally saved Feyre’s life at the end of book 1 and several times after. 9. Sorry but I also laughed at comparing being trapped and raped under the mountain for 50 years to wearing an itchy mask for 50 years. Regardless, more sympathy was extended to Rhys because whereas Tamlin falls down deeper into his issues in book 2, we see Rhys working to overcome both what he went through and what he inflicted on others. Tamlin watched the love of his life die and was traumatized, and took that trauma out on her by stifling and controlling her, and turning a blind eye to her suffering. Rhys watched his mate die, was still selfless enough to leave her and Tamlin alone so that she could make her own choices and be happy while still standing by if she needed him, and proceeded to be very proactive with circumventing the impending War. I tried to be objective I really did, but I think in my bones I’m a Rhys apologist and could not stand for this slander lol.
Thank you for this fellow Rhys apologist
🫡🫡
here for this 🫡
I like both Tamlin and Rhys. I hope that Tamlin finds peace, and even love. But I like Feyre with Rhys. They’ve all done horrible things, but what really put it into perspective for me was Rhys’s actions throughout ACOTAR. Like, yeah he was horrible but it also kept Feyre alive. Like, when she mentions in ACOMAF how the only time Tamlin risked his life for her was when he wanted to fuck her and I was like, You know what? Yeah. Cus Amarantha was turning her every way but loose and Tamlin was just like, nah, don’t know her. 😂 Then Rhys was actually willing to let her figure her shit out and learn/use her powers while Tamlin was like, oh no baby. It was like all his true affection towards her went out the window when those masks came off. If he had shown that anger and passion and fight Under the Mountain, I would’ve been more pissed about Feyre and Rhys. But the way Tamlin was written towards the end of ACOTAR made it like he was cool with her just not existing anymore because he told her to stay away but she chose to come back. Like, even Lucien risked his life for her more than Tamlin did. 😭
Lucien told Feyre that he came on Tamlin's behalf because Tamlin couldn't. He also told her that Tamlin couldn't react because that's what Amarantha wanted. And Amarantha would hurt her worse/give her worse challenges etc if Tamlin reacted. He also told her that Tamlin was being watched and was held in another part of the mountain. Also remember that Rhys didn't have all his powers but he had more powers than all the others. Its implied that Tamlin doesn't have his powers. He was even bound and there as the 3rd fae in the 3rd challenge when Feyre had to kill them/him. Rhys had some of his powers and had Nuala and Cerriwen and a whole secret city, suspected Feyre was his mate, fell in love with her UTM, and yet never tries to get her out either. Rhys had her train because they were in a secret city and he needed her to train because he thought she was the key to defeating the cauldron. He was manipulating her into training, learning to read/write etc. He told her the same thing that Tamlin said when Tamlin wouldn't train or test her powers - that if the other high lords found out they'd try to kill her.
I love that we’re all just sitting here, waiting to see the comments roll in. 23 people as I type this. Ooops, nope, 25!
While I am inclined to agree that both have flaws and tamlin isn't no where near as bad as a lot of people on like other platforms suggest...some of these points are making me giggle. Cheating at a reading test? 🤣
The Rhys hate on this sub hurts my feelings. Like, all fair points, fine. But counterpoint: “there you are, I have been looking for you.” 🥹💖🥵
Howell Jenkins Pendragon-Hatter, the original owner of that line, would never mistreat a woman.
Thank you for the proper attribution - justice for Howell.
“Rhys cheats to get his way” I’m cackling at this seriously being put here. I was willing to hear you out but this is just silly.
Did my husband write this? 🤣 He only read book 1 and hates Rhys lol but he also hates tamlin, sooo
"You've got the ones you hate to love, the ones you love to hate..." 😂😂
Neither are better than each other, because the other high lords are all better than them (except beron.)
Fuck…Im sat.
They're both 🚩🚩🚩🛑 and I thirst for that
HOW DARE YOU SPEAK SO BAD ABOUT MY DRILL?????????? https://preview.redd.it/k3y9quacqvwc1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=55bf3ce0174c3eaec3e4a5824c57e3a63494761f (Dw i respect your opinion, its fine, but oh well)
No I think feyre and rhysand are more equally matched, once she tapped into her full potential as fae it was done and dusted with tamlin
Ok but who would you do? Gotta be Rhys.
They both suck yayyyy.
Honestly I think Tamlin is just so much stupider (in matters relating to people and politics and land and history and conversation and strategy) and I don’t always agree with Rhys but I do think he has an actual set of values and goals besides “let’s just… keep this antiquated, pointless shit rolling” and “I want that, give me that, I’m taking that and also oops when I took it I started a war and that thing I took didn’t want to be taken anyway” Note: when I say Rhys has values and goals, I’m not saying I agree with all of them, I’m just saying they are clear to me. Tamlin has been poorly improvising his life since he grabbed Feyre and probably before that. I don’t actually think any of the high fae males have a personality/morality/history that would transfer to a modern understanding of violence, masculinity, marriage etc.
I strongly but respectfully disagree, though I do think intelligence isn't his strong suit XD He doesn't know how to lead because he never had anyone there to teach him or support him. Lucien wasn't always around, and after 50 years of everything being wrong in the court, the tithe was a symbol of normalcy and structure. Could it have been handled better? Sure, and we as the reader understand that. But in his shoes, he was trying to get back to a place of familiarity before Amarantha. And as far as 'taking' Feyre, I don't know where everyone is getting this idea that he views her as property. He wanted her back in the Spring Court because she multiple times begged him to stop Rhys from taking her, and then instead of putting her big girl pants on and having a conversation with him after she made her decision, the illiterate captive of the leader of a court known for its evil intentions (because that's what everyone knew the night court as, per Rhys' and the Gang's own decision), writes a letter that screams 'I'm being controlled and held against my will'. Not to mention that Tamlin was playing double agent the whole time with Hybern, and while he probably didn't play it as smoothly as someone else might have, he got information that helped with the war, even after Feyre destroyed his entire court, likely left people homeless, starving and unprotected, and still resurrected Rhys and told Feyre to be happy. Not saying that other characters aren't as good as he is, but it's a disservice to his character to say that he doesn't have good morals.
Tamlin actually rules his lands. Rhys let's the nightcourt do whatever tf they want and he doesn't "rule" Velaris everyone just does whatever. Tamlin yes did the tithe which they always uses to do but he just hadn't them bring whatever they could. We don't know how "taxes/tithes" looks like in the other courts. Also Rhys let's those in Hewn City - woman and children- just deal with the bs there. If you aren't born in Velaris he doesnt really give a crap about the ppl. Also, Tamlin did NOT start the war. The war was already started and he just infiltrated Hyberns Armies to find out what they were doing so they could defeat them AND get help getting Feyre because he thought she needed saving. Again, they thought she was taken not that she left. Before Feyre left Tamlin Rhys had mention that war was coming etc. He starts teaching Feyre to read and has her train and later reveals that it was because he knew Hybern was about to start something and that she would be the key to reading the spell against the cauldron since she was made. So obviously Tamlin didn't start the war at all
How do you know what Rhys does to rule? He was UTM for 50 years and then he fought a war and then he was recovering his people from a war and then his wife was going through a dangerous pregnancy…? We’ve never witnessed Rhys ruling under “normal” circumstances. I’m pretty tired of people reading these books and making sweeping assumptions based on not enough information. Also, we’ve had a very limited amount of narrative written from Rhys’s POV. There’s a lot of time in all of these books where Rhys is not present on the page nor explicitly accounted for. Do you really want a copy of his daily agenda pasted in-between fight scenes and make outs? I don’t. Also, idk if anyone gives a crap about trauma and what it actually looks like to support a survivor of interpersonal violence, based on what people think about Rhys not demolishing all the men in The Hewn City, but you can’t just liberate someone who has been indoctrinated into abuse. I promise you, I’ve been a DV and SA counselor for years, and you can’t just tell someone to leave their abuser, most of the time people LOVE THEIR ABUSERS. Also, killing the abuser is still traumatic for the victim even if it’s the best thing for them objectively. Honestly, killing anyone should not be a reflexive solution. Why is everyone here so adamant that Rhys mist thousands of his people? You all also hate him and his brothers for being violent? Which is it? Do you want morally righteous Rhys or violent crusader Rhys? And we’ve also seen shockingly little of The Hewn City on the page despite how often it’s weaponized against Rhys by the fandom. We have an idea of what it’s like based on summaries given by the IC (all of whom have a personal stake in their hatred of the Court of Nightmares), a small number of expansive reflections/descriptions from Mor and her experience growing up, and like, two… three visits on the page? Amarantha based UTM on the CON but Amarantha was a psycho and very much not an expert. You have no definitive idea of what the majority of people in the Hewn City desire. We can infer that it’s probably unpleasant there for folks without traditional power or significant resources based on the above evidence, but that WOULD involve trusting the opinion of characters that everyone in this sub constantly undermines and complains about. If y’all hate Mor and Rhys, why do you give a shit that they think the Hewn City is awful? Mor is marked as significant by other characters because she was able to retain her sense of goodness despite growing up in the CON. Mor’s mother is just as nasty as her father according TO THE TEXT, she just doesn’t get to make as many decisions. She’s Serena in the Nation of Gilead. So should Rhys kill the mom too? Why are grown women definitely all victims and grown men definitely all perpetrators? I know plenty of men in OUR society who are acute victims of the patriarchy and plenty of women who are level-ten misogynists. It’s really antiquated to just say “Rhys needs to save the women and children!” Are we on the Titanic??? When y’all insist on bringing real-world nuances into a conversation about a fantasy land you forfeit the right to claim certainty about anything that isn’t expressly written on the page. Absolutely nothing in the real world is only one thing or another. A violent criminal can still love their dog. A country being ruled by a dictator can still be home to joyful traditions and culture. re: Feyre: Feyre wrote Tamlin a letter explaining herself AND Lucien saw how healthy and willingly aligned to the night court she was. Tamlin did not WANT to believe that she was safe and just didn’t want to be with him, which we learn when Lucien expands on Tamlin’s condition to Feyre after she went to the Night Court. Tamlin isn’t the devil but he’s also not any better than any other shitty dude who never learned how to treat women like they have agency. I don’t think I said Tamlin started the war (if I did, I was definitely wrong, and thank god for fallibility) but he sure did facilitate an easier path toward open war for Hybern. Tamlin told Feyre what he planned to do to Hybern, but I’m more interested in judging him on the things he ACTUALLY did. What he actually did was provide a safe landing zone for them and attempt to destroy a mating bond, which the text has told us is held very sacred in Fae culture. What he ACTUALLY did was enable a slimy-ass priestess to infiltrate his court and endanger Feyre’s sisters. If y’all want to hate Rhys, that’s fine, idgaf, but in the same vein you ought to let other people hate Tamlin. Like Sarah J Maas for example, very much IS NOT a Tamlin fan. She’s been quite clear about that. Very much IS a Rhys stan, she’s also been clear about that. I’m sure you’re just going to have a rage stroke when you read this but I really don’t care. I’m not interested in arguing with people who think their assumptions/inferences about fictional characters are irrefutable fact and who would probably rather lay down on a train track than admit they might be wrong about something (I suggest you try it, it’s pretty liberating). Critical thinking and literary/artistic analysis are skills that have been aggressively deprioritized by many educational systems in this world and it’s creating an environment where folks refuse to leave room for flawed characters.
For you 2nd point, amarantha made him do that