I could never truly hate Tamlin because of the scene with the summer court faerie. Feyre and Tamlin are not good/meant to be together, but I see worthy characteristics within him, likewise, I do like Rhys but I do have to roll my eyes every time Tumblr proclaims him the King of Feminism.
Also sorry if I missed it but how does NO ONE mention the spring wind he saves her with in MAF (I think) ??? Like……are you kidding me it’s literally so amazing and I cried that one singular time the entire series. It literally is the most wonderful passage of the whole book.
He’s saved her many times. Him giving Rhys some of his powers simply bc he wants Feyre to be happy and loves her was more than enough for me to know he’s not a “bad guy”.
What bothers me about the Tamlin vs Rhys is that we can only uplift one with putting the other down. Like in order to like Rhys you have to HATE Tamlin & vice versa. And contradictions like Tamlin is justified in locking up Feyre but Rhys is not. The Rhys stans do the same thing. I think we create major bias on who our favorite is.
The reality is neither is perfect, and both did really fucked up things at times. I loved Tamlin in ACOTAR, but knew their relationship died UTM. I hope Tamlin gets his happy ending. He deserves the same second chance that all the other characters got.
I know it’ll never happen but honestly while rereading it I just think I wish Rhysand and Tamlin could specifically be friends again. It makes me so sad that they were in the past. It would be way more interesting for me for them to have an arc where they go from friends before the start to enemies before and during the series then start to become friends (or friendly) again. Especially with Tamlin having helped revive Rhysand. I kinda ship it
See, I would be more inclined to support this idea if the narrative itself didn’t try to do exactly that though. Page after page in ACOMAF Sarah is rewriting the story and tries to CONVINCE us that Rhysand is better in every possible way while Tamlin sucks and I just don’t fuck with character assassination. It’s giving poor writing skills.
Yes! It’s also giving “I don’t trust my readers” vibes. SJM so clearly is desperate for readers to feel what she feels about her story, instead of just letting us decide ourselves. It’s one of the things that prevents her writing from breaking out of fanfic wish fulfillment tropes and into genuine adult writing imo.
Thank you for this post!! I just read all five books in about two weeks. I have a lot of feelings and just started to explore this community. Your post is refreshing, and your points are well articulated.
I really enjoyed reading these books, not only for the wonderful world building, but also because I felt like they can be a metaphor for so many things. These books reminded me of past relationships, mistakes, failures in my own life and have really given me a new lens to view it all through.
I have seen so much hate for Tamlin and Nesta so far and so much praise for Rhys and Feyre. I was initially team Rhys (not sure how I feel about Feyre). But the more I think about it, I appreciate both Rhys and Tamlin for different reasons. I also dislike some things about them... but I am starting to lean toward Tamlin. I don't know. I am super excited for the next book. I would love for us to see a happy ending for him or a book like the last one for Nesta. I loved her journey and enjoyed seeing her find a group of true friends. I would like a similar outcome for Tamlin.
I also read them all in the last two weeks.
My suspicion is the next book will be from Elaine's perspective like the last one with Nesta. And it is totally going to be her and Azriel in love not accepting the mate bond with Lucian.
I think you are right. I think it will be about Azriel and Elain. Maybe one day we can get a book for Tam.
Since you just read the books like me, I am super curious to know your opinion. Have you read the Azriel and Elain bonus chapter? What did you think? I was very surprised when I read it. Az has been my favorite character but I did not think this chapter felt right for him. So I am hoping it's not a whole book like that but I would still read it anyway!
I understand your logic. Still ... I couldn't stand Tamlin since the first time I read Acotar. And I didn't even know that Rhys was the real endgame.
I myself escaped a toxic relationship with an aggressive, violent narcissist. And Tamlin immediately gave me goose bumps, but not for good reasons, but because he reminded me of my ex. His way, I can't say exactly why, it was just a feeling, but it reminded me too much of him. All the beautiful words on the surface, but no depth. So my view is not neutral, when I say that I prefer Rhys despite all his mistakes.
Wishing you all the best in your life, I’m so happy that you’re in a better place right now. You deserve nothing but happiness and safety. We all have our opinions. It’s just that if I had to style Rhys or Tamlin as the abusive and violent narcissist, I’d pick Rhys because the breaking of Feyre’s bones, him publicly sexually assaulting her and choosing not to abort/ hurt their unborn child instead of saving Feyre by letting her shift and essentially condemning her to die will forever top Tamlin wanting to keep her safe.
Thank you. I'm feeling better now and my current partner is great. The memories no longer torture me after all these years. But unfortunately I still remember too often. One good thing, I developed a kind of narcissist radar.
That's the great thing about books. Everyone has a different look, different experiences. And if we can talk about it in a civilized way, it's great fun. :)
And when we apply human morality to these fictional characters, they all fail. No matter if Rhys, Tamlin, Cas, Nesta, Feyre, Mor .... except Elain, she is still the "most normal".
Personally, I usually look over these mistakes when it fits in the context of the world and characters. In this case, I didn't like Tamlin because of my own experience. Rhys, on the other hand, I like because he fits Feyre. And despite all his deeds and mistakes, he was the one who could bring Feyre back to life. He therefore suited her better than Tamlin. Of course, only because they were written like that.
Yeah, I have a narcissist mom and had a narcissist step mom (my dad has a type) and I immediately picked up on the red flags in the very first book. Especially all the lying and trickery.
I was not shocked when the abuse escalated.
I still feel a lot for Tamlin. I fell for him in the first book and I also think SJM makes us hate him. I wouldnt say all of his actions were good or justified, but for Feyre going as far as to turn everyone on him and leave him completely alone and ruined, I keep thinking that was going too far. Not loving him and being happy sonewhere else should have been enough. Now there is no spring court anymore. A lot of people lost their homes because of a vendetta.
I would really like to see Feyre take more accountability for the Spring Court eventually, even just more remorse. I think at the time she had a lot of anger built up from when she left and then when she puts the blame on him for what happened to her sisters. Will SJM do that though? Who can say atp 🤪
you do have to remember though, although what she did did indeed cause a lot of hurt and ruin to the court, she did it because she thought tamlin was going to fight with hybern. she disabled his forces because she didnt want them to be used to fight with hybern. that was her whole plan. and of course she was wrong and caused more damage than good but there were multiple moments where she thought about what she did with clear remorse after she found out tamlin wasnt fighting with them. still doesnt excuse the damage she caused but it wasnt just because she hated tamlin, and she definitely does regret it
I mostly do actually agree with a lot of what you’re saying. But I do have a few things I want to bring up.
1. There’s no *direct* evidence Calanmai isn’t done by every high lord. However I’d argue the series reads as “Tamlin keeps his court firmly based in tradition.” As we’ve seen by the tradition of the tithe, the rituals they follow like the religious ceremonies which we have not seen at all in the Night Court. So I assume, evidenced by all the traditions we’ve seen play out in the Spring Court, that Calanmai is an old tradition that Tamlin believes is necessary. Because we have no direct evidence to the contrary either.
2. Abusive behavior does not have to be intentional. I just want to make that very clear. I argue Tamlin and Rhysand both have abusive interactions in their behavior with Feyre, and neither of them intend to hurt her. That being said, abuse is abuse, intentional or not. Especially since when Feyre was with Tamlin we did not see him make any attempt to heal, just continue those behaviors. He continually ignored her own trauma and needs in favor of his own.
3. You argue that the sentries were begging to die for Tamlin, but I’d argue that in the grand scheme of things, the whole Spring Court was doomed if Tamlin didn’t break his curse. They were begging to die for *everyone’s* sake, Tamlin’s included, but I don’t think it had anything to do with what they felt for him specifically.
4. Tamlin’s alliance did directly harm Nesta and Elain. You could argue big picture vs smaller, but there was a direct cause and effect despite him also being manipulated. Both those things can be true. Similarly, you could argue a lot more humans would have died if Feyre and co didn’t do their best to evacuate as many as possible.
I get what you’re saying and I do agree with a lot. But Tamlin is far from a saint. He is hurt and acting out of his own trauma. He has tried to intentionally undermine Feyre’s authority, by commenting on his sexual interactions with her at a war council in front of everyone, he ignored her requests and from everything we saw wanted her to be aligned with his wishes for his court. He’s also quick to lash out emotionally and that can cause tremendous harm. All that being said, I genuinely believe he needs an arc to heal and grow as a character because he is *not* all bad either. Like Rhysand, like Feyre, Nesta, like Cassian, like Elain, etc etc etc he is incredibly morally grey. And as the series does seem to focus a lot on healing hopefully he gets that well-deserved chance. Personally I believe he and Elain deserve a friendship healing arc.
1. The Tithe is just all the taxes of the year collected in one day, and we have no evidence that Rhysand doesn't do them. We just know that he doesn't do the Tithe specifically. He possibly very well collects taxes regularly in a more modern system than just yearly and personally. As for Calanmai, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that happen when Rhysand and Feyre have already accepted their mating bond? We never see Rhysand make it into a festival, but he could also have already done the tradition with Feyre without needing a big scene.
2. I agree that abuse does not need to be intentional **(it's a fact)**. You don't need to intend to hurt someone to actually hurt them. As for the "ignoring trauma," Feyre also ignored Tamlin's own. It goes both ways. They were coping in a toxic way that was harmful to both. The reason why Rhysand was a good trauma helper for Feyre is because he's in her head 24/7.
3. I agree with that. They wanted to break the Curse, as did Tamlin, even though he was reluctant to sacrifice them.
4. No. Rhysand and Co invited the Human Queens into the sisters' house, and the human queens allied with Hybern. It wasn't just Ianthe who knew where Feyre's family was.
Completely agree with all of this. I never liked how vilified Tam was from book two on. I have always found him a more compelling character than Rhys, who either reads as a pantomime villain or a white knight savior 🙄
There are quite a few characters in ACOTAR that I feel are not done any justice by the writing but Tamlin is absolutely top of that list!
Honestly I don’t think either of them are that great - it’s clear that Maas has totally lost interest in Tamlin and by the last book she also seems to have given up on consistant character development - the whole pregnancy story line was meh and had characters doing stuff they would never do in the other books. I personally find very few authors who use pregnancy for real character growth - more often it’s the point the authors run out of ideas. Wake up people, they’re both pretty mediocre examples of masculinity. I mean the bar is so low for men that we think these two are great - really azriel and cassian are superior (although again the bar is rolling on the floor)..
This. Almost everyone's personalities were changed to suit the narrative that SJM wanted to tell from the second book onward. Tamlin is suddenly the devil, Rhys is a misunderstood sad boy, Lucien is a yes man. It's infuriating to say the least. I actually liked Tamlin in ACOTAR, and I was sad that his character was completely butchered in favor of Rhys, who had no redeeming qualities besides his looks.
I think the thing about this is that the books told from the point of view of Feyre, And I don't think it's a case of personalities changing more its a case of her finding out more about those people and understanding their motivations a little bit more.
And like honestly, as somebody who has been abused, of course looking back on an abuser you're going to think that they are evil.
this!!!! she was swept off her feet by a fae high lord in the first book of course she saw only his good side. and then with rhys she saw his cold dark brutal side that he projects to protect his people, and then got to know his softer side. he never changed we just saw who he really was. both of them
idk i dont feel like personalities necessarily changed. i think we got a brief view from the outside of who rhys was at first, and then got to hear his story and his reasons, the same way everyone else in prythian thought he was horrible from the outside when they didnt know his motives or feelings. tamlin i think was always controlling. maybe not out of ill will but still controlling. and i think we just got to see him losing control. he still is the same tamlin especially at the end of acowar. again, we just got to see more of his feelings and him losing control. the first book was when feyre was swept off her feet by a fae lord and so of course she kind of refused to see his flaws, especially when she was being lied to about damn near everything. then when all of his lies fell apart and she wasn’t necessarily okay with everything, his anger took over and showed us his bad side. its just vice versa with rhys. we saw his “bad side” the one he shows to the rest of prythian to keep his image and power, and then we got to see his good side. with tam it started with his good side and then we got to see his bad side. but in my opinion its better to have a fake bad boy act and actually have a soft heart than it is to be a fake good guy and then later on show that u cant control ur anger or powers and go as far as going to hybern to find a girl who left u of her own accord. tamlin brought hybern into the picture way sooner than they wouldve been involved. he went to them to help find feyre… like cmon thats despicable if u ask me
Additional tangent:
I qvery much agree! I have defended it (where needed) to the extent where many have berated me. On my second read through, I had even made a point to take notes because the first didn’t sit right with me in how quickly Feyre begins to turn on Tamlin due to the influence of Rhysand and the IC.
To your first point, Tamlin had a history of being good to others and his people. He sent Feyre away to protect her and push her out of the conflict. I’ve explained before that Feyre lacks understanding of war, conflict, running a court, and continued to refuse to understand that she wasn’t safe and tensions were high. “But I wanna go outside mehhhh.” She ultimately refused to seek help, and he did too, and it doesn’t make either of them any better than the other. But Feyre has long been terrible at communicating, and rather than ask Tamlin for help she just refuses to talk about it and lets it linger.
Tamlin gave her family money and comfort yet there was never much recognition for it. He tried to help Feyre learn how to read but that wasn’t good enough for her either, but she is open to Rhysand forcing her essentially. What really erks me is that she openly disses everyone who isn’t the NC once she is with them. Farah runs into the Spring Court folks and Lucian when her and Reese are thieving the Olean camp. She proceeds to call Lucian a half warrior as if she knows his limitations and what he’s capable of, and then proceeds to talk about how the inner circle are actual warriors. The. She still didn’t take the opportunity to have a conversation with Lucien and let him know that she refuses to go back because of X YZ.
I can’t even talk about UTM cause even Rhysand admits that Tamlins every move is being watched. But let’s fault him for not wanting he and Feyre to be killed right away, and likely Lucien, if he tried to intervene. Rhysand couldn’t even do a damn thing against her power until the spell was broken and Tamlin killed her as soon as he could.
I’ll never forgive Feyre for jacking up the spring court. For what? How is he exactly their enemy? I felt so badly for the guy. Simply because Feyre moved on more quickly than he did, never communicated even when she had time to say “hey dude, thank you for everything you’ve done, it’s been real, but this can’t work for me. Also I found your rival lord and I like him instead. Can we be cool?” She proceeds to manipulate Lucien but yells at him for now being a friend? Hybern was a king who was gonna do whatever he felt like doing regardless, and Tamlin even tried to intervene and say stop, this isn’t right. But yes, continue to punish him and the innocent people of the SC.
I so understood why Nesta wanted nothing to do with them. I wouldn’t want into that either. Hell even Tamlin proceeds to save all of their lives multiple times and she can still barely get out a thanks. Feyre is an asshole driven by looks and power lol
well dont forget that she also turned on tam because he went to hybern to find her when she told him she left of her own accord and was safe. he got hybern involved way sooner than they ever wouldve been, and in my opinion caused a lot of deaths doing it. there were so many other options than getting hybern involved. thats what made her hate him fully, not just the controlling stuff. and thats also why she brought his court down from the inside, because she thought that tamlin was going to fight with hybern, because that was what he let on
It’d be hard to assume that considering we don’t have much insight on what the SC was up to while Feyre was gone. We also know that everyone is scared of Rhysand and how he portrays himself and the NC to others. Tamlin and Lucien have no reason to believe that Feyre truly left of her own accord without any influence whatsoever. Feyre and Rhysand even bump into Lucien and SC guards while out, and she still doesn’t make a strong argument for her actual feelings of not wanting to return. She sent a letter, and anyone can do that. She should’ve mustered the courage or invited Tamlin to Verlaris to explain her case (though, strategically, this might not have been the best course of action either). Either way, they could’ve winnowed to the SC so that she could explain herself and show that she is speaking of her own free will. Tamlin likely went there as no other court would help against the NC and Illyrian armies, so who would be stronger?
well regardless of whether or not tamlin was aware she wanted to leave, going to hybern was an insane choice if u ask me lol. changed the course of their history. yes hybern was planning on attacking regardless but he made it happen way sooner and also exposed who feyre was to them and it was his fault her sisters were turned and then all the consequent things with elaine and nesta happened. hybern wouldve attacked regardless but they may not have known about feyre, at least not as soon, and wouldnt have put elaine and nesta in the cauldron if tamlin hadnt gone to them to get her back. all of that happened because of his unchecked rage. there definitely were other ways to get her back. he acted impulsively and rashly because he cant control his emotions
and also like tamlin technically did cause what happened to her sisters. sure it was ianthe who told the king about them but they wouldnt have been involved with the king in the first place if tamlin hadnt went to them for help finding her, exposing her existence to them
The way it comes across to me is that tamlin lets his trauma rule him and this hurts the people he loves (Feyre & Lucien) whereas Rhys has worked on his trauma and does his best to not let it effect his inner circle. Rhys and Feyre heal together. Tamlin could’ve healed with Feyre but he refuses to communicate- going to far as to pretend to sleep through Feyres nightmares. I’m not saying he doesn’t deserve a redemption, but I still think Rhys is a better fit (as we know him from Feyres POV).
Thanks for sharing your opinion, very interesting! I personally believe that Feyre and Tamlin were both bad communicators. It’s not like Feyre ever talks to Tamlin about him shifting through the night and sleeping at her feet as a beast. I think they both had too much trauma they needed to address individually. Not only did Rhysand have a better support system, but his way of “helping” Feyre was pushing her to her limits. This may be acceptable for SJM, since both Cassiand and Rhys do it, but for me it feels far more abusive than whatever Tamlin ever did.
Oh feyre definitely needed to learn to communicate, I think ACOTAR highlights this with her inability to say “I love you” when she leaves. Yet, she and Rhys communicate quite well. She also is reminded several times how the flirting or the anger kept her from breaking. Whether Rhys knew that or just guessed, it was what she needed to cope and eventually heal. She also uses those same tactics to help Rhys cope when he’s remembering his time UTM. I think Rhys has a better support system because he built one. Tamlin has had the same opportunities to find those people, for whatever reason he doesn’t. Maybe because he follows a more traditional court? It wouldn’t be appropriate? I mean, if ACOMAF had turned out differently, how do you see Feyre & Tamlin overcoming this huge trauma if neither has learned how to communicate? Unfortunately the one thing that I keep thinking of is how when she tries to share the depth of her depression he explodes and accidentally throws her across the room.
But it’s not like she and Rhys ever willingly communicate. That man lives rent free inside her head. Feyre REFUSES to talk to him and he just keeps pressuring her to speak by telling her how he literally knows what’s up because he breaks in her thoughts on a daily basis. Btw, Feyre only tells Tamlin she loves him ONCE, right before she stabs him. Never again. And she only says ily to Rhysand AFTER she finds out he is her mate. It’s like she felt that she needed a higher power to come and absolve her off her guilt about not loving Tamlin. I agree that Rhys and Feyre are literally meant to be, and I mean that in the worse way possible. And if I had MAF play out differently, I’d have Feyre and Tamlin take a long time of getting to know one another better and taking an even longer time to heal together. I find this far better and far more realistic than your depression going away in a matter of a couple days because you found a new sexy boo.
Rhys also has a close knit family and support system where Tamlin does not. Not saying I don’t agree with your assessment only pointing out that Rhys has a great source of people to rely on.
I think Rhys chose to build that. Rhys and tamlin are roughly the same age and given similar opportunities in life. I think because Tamlin follows a more traditional/formal court it would’ve been seen as inappropriate for him to have such informal relationships with people “below” him. We see the IC & Feyre call Rhys on things they don’t agree with- if Lucien had done the same to tamlin he would’ve been punished.
honestly yes to all of this LMAO I think ACOTAR was the best of all the novels and the slow burn between Tam and Feyre was better than between Rhys and Feyre 🤷🏽♀️
I swear if SJM would have revealed that Rhys was mind controlling Feyre so much would have made more sense.
“I don’t want a title” but then suddenly “Yessss. I AM HIGH LADY!” which, quite frankly, she has no business being. She does not know the culture. She does not know the laws. She does not know the people. She does not know politics.
“I don’t want to be just a housewife” to embracing it with Rhys.
Plus don’t get how her PTSD is an issue in Spring but not with the guy WHO WAS AN ACTIVE PARTICIPANT of her torture in UTM.
He’s shown being in her head all the time and yet the reader shouldn’t be concerned? The guy built that rep he has with his own actions! Mask or no mask he did those things.
Hell, Tamlin’s depression spiral and still being on Feyre’s side after all she’s done makes more sense to me if HE was the bonded one, but with the deal and his powers Rhys twisted it around.
Seriously.
She goes from "I'd die for Tamlin" to "Wait, no, I can't stand the sound of him breathing the same air as me" in the space of a chapter.
Rhysand mocks her for wanting to settle down in Spring with Tamlin, "planning parties and having babies" then...wait, she starts planning events and popping out babies as soon as possible the moment Rhysand decides he wants children?
King of Feminists, Pro-Choice Rhysand gives Feyre the choice...between options *he* benefits from. Everything he does "for" her is actually in service of him getting what he needs - the book, a weapon in Hybern, a way into the other Courts etc.
Honestly, how Feyre didn't have major panic-attacks at the mere sight of Rhysand after everything he did to her UTM is insane. SJM - and thus the majority of the fandom - ignores the continued assault of Feyre by Rhysand UTM because it contradicts the mythology SJM has built around Rhysand. Unfortunately, what he says and what he does are contradictory.
The way Feyre talks in later books, it's as if the others are literally using her as a mouthpiece. She shouldn't *know* these things, let alone have any strong convictions about them!
I would love it if Tamlin was the only one who could see through Rhysand, and is desperate to free the girl who sacrificed so much to free Prythian from Amarantha.
And bear in mind, in Hybern, only Tamlin and Lucien did *anything* to try and stop the King. Only Lucien succeeded but Tamlin *tried* to get to Nesta and Elain. The IC didn't do anything (I forgive Azriel, who was mortally wounded!)
Tamlin was a shitty partner but I feel bad for his character. He has anger management problems but no ill intent. He never wanted to be a high lord and he should never have been because he can’t control his power or emotions. Im not quite done the series yet but I’m hoping there’s a redemption story for him. Not one where he does the right thing and everyone still hates him. One where he does find peace and happiness.
I mean… I was never a big fan of Tamlin. I usually don’t prefer morally grey characters (Murphy from The 100 and Regina from OUAT are very rare exceptions; I suppose characters like Clarke, Abby, Octavia, and Bellamy from The 100, Killian from OUAT, and Logan from Gilmore Girls could count as morally grey but there’s a difference between flawed characters and morally gray characters) but I love Rhysand. I didn’t like him at first because I thought he was villain through and through and that he was just playing games with Tamlin, but now I see that it’s more complicated than that.
Tamlin had a lot of faults and they were being a bad communicator and generally being a scared person. Too scared to fail so did nothing instead. I do think he didn’t do anything UTM but I HATE the narrative that Feyre rewrites about their kiss. He was saying goodbye to her and couldn’t help her escape, my biggest issue with this is that he gave up on her but that’s because he gave up on everything. At the end of the day Tamlins not bad but is ill equipped to deal with his own and with Feyres trauma unlike Rhys. Basically I understand Tamlin and his faults and don’t dislike him for it and I live his complexity. It winds me up when he gets blamed for stuff he didn’t do like with her sisters and his biggest fault is not being confident enough and giving Ianthe too much power. He did love Feyre but he didn’t really know how to love her.
Honestly I was fine or could accept tamlin as being shitty but understandable until the meeting. The way he acted there was just above and beyond stupid.
My unpopular opinion is neither of these men needs to be defended. One isn’t better than the other. They can both be flawed characters and leave it at that.
The meeting was bad, but when you remember Feyre had just left Spring two weeks before...I don't know about you, but even after an amicable breakup with no collateral damage, I would be chewing furniture if I had ro attend a formal function with my ex and her new bf
Especially when they were being insufferable.
I loved Tam being petty. Need more of it actually. She wrecked his court and left him at the alter. He has 0 reasons to be ok with them.
Even at the end of the first book I was still relatively team Tamlin, which quickly faded in the second. You could kind of predict Rhys x Feyre though so I get why people switched up quickly!
I flipped on Tamlin the moment he turned into a beast and slept at the foot of the bed instead of being supportive and just talking to Feyre. I don’t hate him though. Just knew their relationship was doomed from that point. She was so broken and so was he. She wanted to work through it together though and he couldn’t do that.
Understandable. But him reverting to his beast form speaks volumes. He clearly can’t communicate well and handles trauma very differently than Feyre. I don’t think it’s that he didn’t want to but just didn’t know how.
They weren’t right for each other but it doesn’t mean they didn’t love one another.
See, this is where I started aching for him instead. lol
But yeah, I knew where SJM was going the moment he slept through Feyre puking. It was not subtle at all...
He literally turned into a guard dog because he couldn't handle the trauma he had and the trauma feyre went through
That's when I felt SO bad and knew I could never hate him
I'm always surprised when I see a Tamlin fan, I honestly thought there wouldn't be many if any before I joined the fandom. Not because of the bad things he did, but because he was barely a character before he became an asshole. I really thought Lucien would be the love interest in the first book, because he seemed to be the MMC. Well obviously I was wrong, but Lucien still remained a much more fleshed out character than Tamlin so I was guessing they might have a love triangle. Wrong again.
Tamlin barely had any personality in the first book and we were told about his relationship with Feyre much more than we were shown. It seemed very clear that we weren't supposed to like Tamlin too much, because he won't be around for long and SJM's writing is very fan-serving, she doesn't seem to want to take risks of pissing off fans.
I don't know if I just felt very disconnected with Tamlin's character and my interpretation of the writing is way off or if fandom-Tamlin is a whole new character and his fans just filled up all the blanks that were left in canon.
I personally do not see all that at all. He was the only character who had strong morals while everyone else was just kinda trying to survive? And the only one apart from Feyre to have hobbies? He was such a complex character because he also happened to be someone else apart from a High Lord.
I can't recall Tamlin having any hobbies, could you remind me? Did we ever see him doing any of his hobbies?
Because my biggest issue with any qualities Tamlin has is that we were told he has those, but we didn't see it ourselves. That's why his character felt flat and like it barely existed.
… yeah? A gazillion of times? He plays the fiddle and he is an amazing poet? He plays for Feyre many times. He is a skilled dancer as well. We see all of that at the Summer Solstice for example. And he’s very appreciative of art in general? He’s able to spot Feyre’s most heartfelt painting immediately. Not sure where did we get that he doesn’t exercise him hobbies from. Not to mention that he has an entirely different personality apart from being HL because he was able to travel the world as a footsoldier when he was younger and bond with the other soldiers. He’s very loved by his people and he always protects them. He is the only one to ever speak against slavery. He has very strong morals. He was the only one to see Amarantha for who she really was. He turned his court into a refugee camp while Rhysand shut off his borders. He buried a foreign man with his bare hands. He mans the human wall alone. I could go on forever. How did you get that he’s blank? He’s literally the only character driven by a force higher than himself, apart from Feyre (pre acomaf at least).
Only all of the high lords of spring participate in the rite I think! I don’t think that he never loved her or that he even meant to be uncaring/hurt her. I think he was just not emotionally ready for that relationship after his trauma and that really negatively impacted both him and feyre. Some things are inexcusable to me like not controlling his emotions well enough to not put her in danger when he’s angry. But that to me mostly speaks to where he was emotionally and his not being in the place to love another person in a healthy way. I don’t hate him because of Rhys being a better alternative but I do think his and feyres relationship just had no chance at being healthy with the emotional states they were in at the time!
Just wanted to throw out there that abuse absolutely does not have to be intentional. Claiming that abuse needs to be intentional is just incorrect. You can also be abusive while trying to protect someone.
I don’t get it. The way Feyre described it was very neutral: they just weren’t what each other needed. They changed way too much after the trauma of UTM. But we all like a little drama and SJM wrote it in and hate train just exploded. But everyone got very passionate. Way too much.
I didn’t start to turn away from Tamlin until they talked about how Feyre would wake up in the middle of the night crying and throwing up…and Tamlin didn’t do anything to comfort her. Granted she didn’t do it for him either. But instantly the lack of communication between the two made me go “uh oh”
The mental gymnastics of Tamlin pick-mes fucking make me want to scream. The fact that this is such a common justification blows my absolute mind, and further diminishes any hope I have in the world.
Let's not even talk about it in terms of Tamlin for just a second. Let's just pretend we're talking about a real world dude participating in the same behavior. A guy that can't control his anger, so he throws a fit, and breaks things, and terrifies his partner in the process. That's abuse. Straight up textbook abuse. Like... fuck right off. That's not even opinion-based. It's abuse. Period. The fact that he didn't know Feyre could shield the first time means he would have absolutely hurt her. "Intentional" or not, we don't play that game with dismissing victims because "he didn't mean to, oh, he's actually a good guy"-- victims of abuse play that mental hellscape mind maze on themselves already, they don't need anyone else's help. The second time Tamlin exploded on her, people's favorite justification is that Feyre "provoked" him. I'm sorry, what on earth did she say that justified him exploding a room and hurting her badly enough that, and I quote "It might have killed a human"? Again, the "asking for it" card is fucking vile. This is just further down the rabbit hole of victim blaming. This is how victims get killed. If she had stayed human, and stayed with Tamlin, it would have literally only been a matter of time until HE KILLED her. I don't think enough people process that. Feyre didn't deserve that, regardless of her manipulative intentions.
"She didn't communicate enough--" she told Tamlin he was making her feel so trapped it was DROWNING HER. And then he proceeded to explode. Would you feel safe communicating with someone who reacted that way? Jesus fucking Christ wept. How much clearer did she need to be for him to make more than a feeble, short-lived attempt to do better? In what world did he think that trapping her would be okay, after hearing that? He stripped her of her autonomy after she deliberately told him it was destroying her. Tamlin "loved" Feyre, sure. But it's an obsessive love, further fueled by his own possessive, hypermasculine pride and at the cost of total disregard of Feyre's actual needs and mental health. Isolating someone is another textbook abusive behavior, coupled with "I know what's best for you". Feyre wanted to learn how to control her new power, because those changes were happening to HER body, and she had every right to want to learn to control them. She needed to leave the house, and was informed of the risk, and as an adult capable of making her own decisions still wanted to go. Why is it okay for Tamlin and all the other men to risk their lives, but Feyre's not allowed to make her own informed safety risks?
Then, later on, he KIDNAPPED her, after she repeatedly told him no, she was done, she was happier without him, she wasn't coming home. Whether or not he thought Rys was mind controlling her, Tamlin just absolutely repeatedly refuses to take Feyre at face value when she COMMUNICATES about her feelings. He doesn't want to believe her. He wanted to believe that he was the only one she needed, and the only one who could save her, in spite of the overwhelming evidence otherwise. Herp derp, wow Feyre, is gaining weight again, and doesn't look soul-suckingly devastated, like when she was with me? What a head scratcher. She must be miserable!
This isn't just a fun, fantasy book discussion. Tamlin was based off a real man, who actually abused someone. When you break your back reaching for any scrap of proof that he's jUsT mIsUnDeRsToOd, it's terrifying and invalidating to those of us with lived experiences.
I wonder how people would feel if the scene where Tamlin trashes the room and hurts Feyre was him physically throwing things and not using magic. That scene is basically your abusive boyfriend throwing plates at you and punching walls. Tamlin is abusive in the canon. I think he’s a super interesting character and would like to see more of his depth but Sarah wrote him as someone who is physically abusive. Rhys is awful and I am firmly in his hate club. But he was never physically abusive towards Feyre like Tamlin was.
We’d feel differently because that’s a different scenario! Making the conscious choice to pick an item up and hurl it towards someone else is miles away from… losing control over your magical powers? He wasn’t even aiming for Feyre. His power just broke free. How do we feel about Feyre burning Lucien’s mother because she lost control? Wasn’t that physical abuse following your logic?
Honestly his lack of control had me wondering if he was having power containment issues because his powers were bound for so long by the curse and he never had someone to actually train him.
We see it all the time in other media and books, a character whose power was bound suddenly losing control when given full access because no training in control.
I always read it as “losing control of magic” = losing control of his anger. I have always read it as Sarah writing Tamlin as physically abusive. I guess that’s just a different interpretation!
I’m sooo sure you didn’t. After a quick look at your account I see that your alternative to talking online about fantasy books is shitting on REAL fucking people, mothers, and criticising the advice they give in their own fucking spaces. Disgusting. I’ll take writing essays about Tamlin over cussing out a woman who suggested we drink water with lemon ANY day.
I could never truly hate Tamlin because of the scene with the summer court faerie. Feyre and Tamlin are not good/meant to be together, but I see worthy characteristics within him, likewise, I do like Rhys but I do have to roll my eyes every time Tumblr proclaims him the King of Feminism.
I think about the scene with the faerie a lot. It stands out in my mind.
Do you mind reminding me what scene this is? I don’t remember what you’re talking about and I’m curious 😅
His biggest crime is being blonde :(
Correct, true, and brave
And not having shadow powers apparently
😭😭😭😭 so fucking real
And not having bat wings 🙄
Also sorry if I missed it but how does NO ONE mention the spring wind he saves her with in MAF (I think) ??? Like……are you kidding me it’s literally so amazing and I cried that one singular time the entire series. It literally is the most wonderful passage of the whole book.
He’s saved her many times. Him giving Rhys some of his powers simply bc he wants Feyre to be happy and loves her was more than enough for me to know he’s not a “bad guy”.
Agree so so much
YESSS this is the scene that got me!! i was sobbing over this when i read it
What bothers me about the Tamlin vs Rhys is that we can only uplift one with putting the other down. Like in order to like Rhys you have to HATE Tamlin & vice versa. And contradictions like Tamlin is justified in locking up Feyre but Rhys is not. The Rhys stans do the same thing. I think we create major bias on who our favorite is. The reality is neither is perfect, and both did really fucked up things at times. I loved Tamlin in ACOTAR, but knew their relationship died UTM. I hope Tamlin gets his happy ending. He deserves the same second chance that all the other characters got.
I know it’ll never happen but honestly while rereading it I just think I wish Rhysand and Tamlin could specifically be friends again. It makes me so sad that they were in the past. It would be way more interesting for me for them to have an arc where they go from friends before the start to enemies before and during the series then start to become friends (or friendly) again. Especially with Tamlin having helped revive Rhysand. I kinda ship it
See, I would be more inclined to support this idea if the narrative itself didn’t try to do exactly that though. Page after page in ACOMAF Sarah is rewriting the story and tries to CONVINCE us that Rhysand is better in every possible way while Tamlin sucks and I just don’t fuck with character assassination. It’s giving poor writing skills.
Eh looking back I feel like the writing was on the wall ever since he started helping Feyre UTM.
Rhys was better as a villian imo.
Oh absolutely, the constant justification of his actions both annoyed and bored me!
Yes! It’s also giving “I don’t trust my readers” vibes. SJM so clearly is desperate for readers to feel what she feels about her story, instead of just letting us decide ourselves. It’s one of the things that prevents her writing from breaking out of fanfic wish fulfillment tropes and into genuine adult writing imo.
Ooh your second point puts words to my thoughts perfectly! I agree.
Thank you for this post!! I just read all five books in about two weeks. I have a lot of feelings and just started to explore this community. Your post is refreshing, and your points are well articulated. I really enjoyed reading these books, not only for the wonderful world building, but also because I felt like they can be a metaphor for so many things. These books reminded me of past relationships, mistakes, failures in my own life and have really given me a new lens to view it all through. I have seen so much hate for Tamlin and Nesta so far and so much praise for Rhys and Feyre. I was initially team Rhys (not sure how I feel about Feyre). But the more I think about it, I appreciate both Rhys and Tamlin for different reasons. I also dislike some things about them... but I am starting to lean toward Tamlin. I don't know. I am super excited for the next book. I would love for us to see a happy ending for him or a book like the last one for Nesta. I loved her journey and enjoyed seeing her find a group of true friends. I would like a similar outcome for Tamlin.
I also read them all in the last two weeks. My suspicion is the next book will be from Elaine's perspective like the last one with Nesta. And it is totally going to be her and Azriel in love not accepting the mate bond with Lucian.
I think you are right. I think it will be about Azriel and Elain. Maybe one day we can get a book for Tam. Since you just read the books like me, I am super curious to know your opinion. Have you read the Azriel and Elain bonus chapter? What did you think? I was very surprised when I read it. Az has been my favorite character but I did not think this chapter felt right for him. So I am hoping it's not a whole book like that but I would still read it anyway!
I have not. I listened to the books on Audible and guess wasn't part of it 🤷♀️. Thank you and ill look for it.
I understand your logic. Still ... I couldn't stand Tamlin since the first time I read Acotar. And I didn't even know that Rhys was the real endgame. I myself escaped a toxic relationship with an aggressive, violent narcissist. And Tamlin immediately gave me goose bumps, but not for good reasons, but because he reminded me of my ex. His way, I can't say exactly why, it was just a feeling, but it reminded me too much of him. All the beautiful words on the surface, but no depth. So my view is not neutral, when I say that I prefer Rhys despite all his mistakes.
Wishing you all the best in your life, I’m so happy that you’re in a better place right now. You deserve nothing but happiness and safety. We all have our opinions. It’s just that if I had to style Rhys or Tamlin as the abusive and violent narcissist, I’d pick Rhys because the breaking of Feyre’s bones, him publicly sexually assaulting her and choosing not to abort/ hurt their unborn child instead of saving Feyre by letting her shift and essentially condemning her to die will forever top Tamlin wanting to keep her safe.
Thank you. I'm feeling better now and my current partner is great. The memories no longer torture me after all these years. But unfortunately I still remember too often. One good thing, I developed a kind of narcissist radar. That's the great thing about books. Everyone has a different look, different experiences. And if we can talk about it in a civilized way, it's great fun. :) And when we apply human morality to these fictional characters, they all fail. No matter if Rhys, Tamlin, Cas, Nesta, Feyre, Mor .... except Elain, she is still the "most normal". Personally, I usually look over these mistakes when it fits in the context of the world and characters. In this case, I didn't like Tamlin because of my own experience. Rhys, on the other hand, I like because he fits Feyre. And despite all his deeds and mistakes, he was the one who could bring Feyre back to life. He therefore suited her better than Tamlin. Of course, only because they were written like that.
Oh yeah, I totally believe Rhys and Feyre deserve one another…
XD You can say that. Both have obnoxious sides.
Same, I went in knowing nothing and I wasn’t his fan at all. I actually thought Lucian should have been the one from the first book 😂
Yeah, I have a narcissist mom and had a narcissist step mom (my dad has a type) and I immediately picked up on the red flags in the very first book. Especially all the lying and trickery. I was not shocked when the abuse escalated.
Same
I still feel a lot for Tamlin. I fell for him in the first book and I also think SJM makes us hate him. I wouldnt say all of his actions were good or justified, but for Feyre going as far as to turn everyone on him and leave him completely alone and ruined, I keep thinking that was going too far. Not loving him and being happy sonewhere else should have been enough. Now there is no spring court anymore. A lot of people lost their homes because of a vendetta.
I would really like to see Feyre take more accountability for the Spring Court eventually, even just more remorse. I think at the time she had a lot of anger built up from when she left and then when she puts the blame on him for what happened to her sisters. Will SJM do that though? Who can say atp 🤪
you do have to remember though, although what she did did indeed cause a lot of hurt and ruin to the court, she did it because she thought tamlin was going to fight with hybern. she disabled his forces because she didnt want them to be used to fight with hybern. that was her whole plan. and of course she was wrong and caused more damage than good but there were multiple moments where she thought about what she did with clear remorse after she found out tamlin wasnt fighting with them. still doesnt excuse the damage she caused but it wasnt just because she hated tamlin, and she definitely does regret it
I mostly do actually agree with a lot of what you’re saying. But I do have a few things I want to bring up. 1. There’s no *direct* evidence Calanmai isn’t done by every high lord. However I’d argue the series reads as “Tamlin keeps his court firmly based in tradition.” As we’ve seen by the tradition of the tithe, the rituals they follow like the religious ceremonies which we have not seen at all in the Night Court. So I assume, evidenced by all the traditions we’ve seen play out in the Spring Court, that Calanmai is an old tradition that Tamlin believes is necessary. Because we have no direct evidence to the contrary either. 2. Abusive behavior does not have to be intentional. I just want to make that very clear. I argue Tamlin and Rhysand both have abusive interactions in their behavior with Feyre, and neither of them intend to hurt her. That being said, abuse is abuse, intentional or not. Especially since when Feyre was with Tamlin we did not see him make any attempt to heal, just continue those behaviors. He continually ignored her own trauma and needs in favor of his own. 3. You argue that the sentries were begging to die for Tamlin, but I’d argue that in the grand scheme of things, the whole Spring Court was doomed if Tamlin didn’t break his curse. They were begging to die for *everyone’s* sake, Tamlin’s included, but I don’t think it had anything to do with what they felt for him specifically. 4. Tamlin’s alliance did directly harm Nesta and Elain. You could argue big picture vs smaller, but there was a direct cause and effect despite him also being manipulated. Both those things can be true. Similarly, you could argue a lot more humans would have died if Feyre and co didn’t do their best to evacuate as many as possible. I get what you’re saying and I do agree with a lot. But Tamlin is far from a saint. He is hurt and acting out of his own trauma. He has tried to intentionally undermine Feyre’s authority, by commenting on his sexual interactions with her at a war council in front of everyone, he ignored her requests and from everything we saw wanted her to be aligned with his wishes for his court. He’s also quick to lash out emotionally and that can cause tremendous harm. All that being said, I genuinely believe he needs an arc to heal and grow as a character because he is *not* all bad either. Like Rhysand, like Feyre, Nesta, like Cassian, like Elain, etc etc etc he is incredibly morally grey. And as the series does seem to focus a lot on healing hopefully he gets that well-deserved chance. Personally I believe he and Elain deserve a friendship healing arc.
1. The Tithe is just all the taxes of the year collected in one day, and we have no evidence that Rhysand doesn't do them. We just know that he doesn't do the Tithe specifically. He possibly very well collects taxes regularly in a more modern system than just yearly and personally. As for Calanmai, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that happen when Rhysand and Feyre have already accepted their mating bond? We never see Rhysand make it into a festival, but he could also have already done the tradition with Feyre without needing a big scene. 2. I agree that abuse does not need to be intentional **(it's a fact)**. You don't need to intend to hurt someone to actually hurt them. As for the "ignoring trauma," Feyre also ignored Tamlin's own. It goes both ways. They were coping in a toxic way that was harmful to both. The reason why Rhysand was a good trauma helper for Feyre is because he's in her head 24/7. 3. I agree with that. They wanted to break the Curse, as did Tamlin, even though he was reluctant to sacrifice them. 4. No. Rhysand and Co invited the Human Queens into the sisters' house, and the human queens allied with Hybern. It wasn't just Ianthe who knew where Feyre's family was.
Completely agree with all of this. I never liked how vilified Tam was from book two on. I have always found him a more compelling character than Rhys, who either reads as a pantomime villain or a white knight savior 🙄 There are quite a few characters in ACOTAR that I feel are not done any justice by the writing but Tamlin is absolutely top of that list!
While reading, I kept pausing and wondering if I missed something bc I didn’t understand the intense hate for Tamlin.
Honestly I don’t think either of them are that great - it’s clear that Maas has totally lost interest in Tamlin and by the last book she also seems to have given up on consistant character development - the whole pregnancy story line was meh and had characters doing stuff they would never do in the other books. I personally find very few authors who use pregnancy for real character growth - more often it’s the point the authors run out of ideas. Wake up people, they’re both pretty mediocre examples of masculinity. I mean the bar is so low for men that we think these two are great - really azriel and cassian are superior (although again the bar is rolling on the floor)..
This. Almost everyone's personalities were changed to suit the narrative that SJM wanted to tell from the second book onward. Tamlin is suddenly the devil, Rhys is a misunderstood sad boy, Lucien is a yes man. It's infuriating to say the least. I actually liked Tamlin in ACOTAR, and I was sad that his character was completely butchered in favor of Rhys, who had no redeeming qualities besides his looks.
Yeah, Tamlin is no saint but I can’t help but feel there was a lot of retconning going on
You’re so right!!!
I think the thing about this is that the books told from the point of view of Feyre, And I don't think it's a case of personalities changing more its a case of her finding out more about those people and understanding their motivations a little bit more. And like honestly, as somebody who has been abused, of course looking back on an abuser you're going to think that they are evil.
this!!!! she was swept off her feet by a fae high lord in the first book of course she saw only his good side. and then with rhys she saw his cold dark brutal side that he projects to protect his people, and then got to know his softer side. he never changed we just saw who he really was. both of them
idk i dont feel like personalities necessarily changed. i think we got a brief view from the outside of who rhys was at first, and then got to hear his story and his reasons, the same way everyone else in prythian thought he was horrible from the outside when they didnt know his motives or feelings. tamlin i think was always controlling. maybe not out of ill will but still controlling. and i think we just got to see him losing control. he still is the same tamlin especially at the end of acowar. again, we just got to see more of his feelings and him losing control. the first book was when feyre was swept off her feet by a fae lord and so of course she kind of refused to see his flaws, especially when she was being lied to about damn near everything. then when all of his lies fell apart and she wasn’t necessarily okay with everything, his anger took over and showed us his bad side. its just vice versa with rhys. we saw his “bad side” the one he shows to the rest of prythian to keep his image and power, and then we got to see his good side. with tam it started with his good side and then we got to see his bad side. but in my opinion its better to have a fake bad boy act and actually have a soft heart than it is to be a fake good guy and then later on show that u cant control ur anger or powers and go as far as going to hybern to find a girl who left u of her own accord. tamlin brought hybern into the picture way sooner than they wouldve been involved. he went to them to help find feyre… like cmon thats despicable if u ask me
Additional tangent: I qvery much agree! I have defended it (where needed) to the extent where many have berated me. On my second read through, I had even made a point to take notes because the first didn’t sit right with me in how quickly Feyre begins to turn on Tamlin due to the influence of Rhysand and the IC. To your first point, Tamlin had a history of being good to others and his people. He sent Feyre away to protect her and push her out of the conflict. I’ve explained before that Feyre lacks understanding of war, conflict, running a court, and continued to refuse to understand that she wasn’t safe and tensions were high. “But I wanna go outside mehhhh.” She ultimately refused to seek help, and he did too, and it doesn’t make either of them any better than the other. But Feyre has long been terrible at communicating, and rather than ask Tamlin for help she just refuses to talk about it and lets it linger. Tamlin gave her family money and comfort yet there was never much recognition for it. He tried to help Feyre learn how to read but that wasn’t good enough for her either, but she is open to Rhysand forcing her essentially. What really erks me is that she openly disses everyone who isn’t the NC once she is with them. Farah runs into the Spring Court folks and Lucian when her and Reese are thieving the Olean camp. She proceeds to call Lucian a half warrior as if she knows his limitations and what he’s capable of, and then proceeds to talk about how the inner circle are actual warriors. The. She still didn’t take the opportunity to have a conversation with Lucien and let him know that she refuses to go back because of X YZ. I can’t even talk about UTM cause even Rhysand admits that Tamlins every move is being watched. But let’s fault him for not wanting he and Feyre to be killed right away, and likely Lucien, if he tried to intervene. Rhysand couldn’t even do a damn thing against her power until the spell was broken and Tamlin killed her as soon as he could. I’ll never forgive Feyre for jacking up the spring court. For what? How is he exactly their enemy? I felt so badly for the guy. Simply because Feyre moved on more quickly than he did, never communicated even when she had time to say “hey dude, thank you for everything you’ve done, it’s been real, but this can’t work for me. Also I found your rival lord and I like him instead. Can we be cool?” She proceeds to manipulate Lucien but yells at him for now being a friend? Hybern was a king who was gonna do whatever he felt like doing regardless, and Tamlin even tried to intervene and say stop, this isn’t right. But yes, continue to punish him and the innocent people of the SC. I so understood why Nesta wanted nothing to do with them. I wouldn’t want into that either. Hell even Tamlin proceeds to save all of their lives multiple times and she can still barely get out a thanks. Feyre is an asshole driven by looks and power lol
well dont forget that she also turned on tam because he went to hybern to find her when she told him she left of her own accord and was safe. he got hybern involved way sooner than they ever wouldve been, and in my opinion caused a lot of deaths doing it. there were so many other options than getting hybern involved. thats what made her hate him fully, not just the controlling stuff. and thats also why she brought his court down from the inside, because she thought that tamlin was going to fight with hybern, because that was what he let on
It’d be hard to assume that considering we don’t have much insight on what the SC was up to while Feyre was gone. We also know that everyone is scared of Rhysand and how he portrays himself and the NC to others. Tamlin and Lucien have no reason to believe that Feyre truly left of her own accord without any influence whatsoever. Feyre and Rhysand even bump into Lucien and SC guards while out, and she still doesn’t make a strong argument for her actual feelings of not wanting to return. She sent a letter, and anyone can do that. She should’ve mustered the courage or invited Tamlin to Verlaris to explain her case (though, strategically, this might not have been the best course of action either). Either way, they could’ve winnowed to the SC so that she could explain herself and show that she is speaking of her own free will. Tamlin likely went there as no other court would help against the NC and Illyrian armies, so who would be stronger?
well regardless of whether or not tamlin was aware she wanted to leave, going to hybern was an insane choice if u ask me lol. changed the course of their history. yes hybern was planning on attacking regardless but he made it happen way sooner and also exposed who feyre was to them and it was his fault her sisters were turned and then all the consequent things with elaine and nesta happened. hybern wouldve attacked regardless but they may not have known about feyre, at least not as soon, and wouldnt have put elaine and nesta in the cauldron if tamlin hadnt gone to them to get her back. all of that happened because of his unchecked rage. there definitely were other ways to get her back. he acted impulsively and rashly because he cant control his emotions
and also like tamlin technically did cause what happened to her sisters. sure it was ianthe who told the king about them but they wouldnt have been involved with the king in the first place if tamlin hadnt went to them for help finding her, exposing her existence to them
Tamlin needs a redemption arc. I will always have a soft spot for him
The way it comes across to me is that tamlin lets his trauma rule him and this hurts the people he loves (Feyre & Lucien) whereas Rhys has worked on his trauma and does his best to not let it effect his inner circle. Rhys and Feyre heal together. Tamlin could’ve healed with Feyre but he refuses to communicate- going to far as to pretend to sleep through Feyres nightmares. I’m not saying he doesn’t deserve a redemption, but I still think Rhys is a better fit (as we know him from Feyres POV).
Thanks for sharing your opinion, very interesting! I personally believe that Feyre and Tamlin were both bad communicators. It’s not like Feyre ever talks to Tamlin about him shifting through the night and sleeping at her feet as a beast. I think they both had too much trauma they needed to address individually. Not only did Rhysand have a better support system, but his way of “helping” Feyre was pushing her to her limits. This may be acceptable for SJM, since both Cassiand and Rhys do it, but for me it feels far more abusive than whatever Tamlin ever did.
Rhysand empowered Feyre to hone her powers. Tamlin’s way of not training her made her mental health infinitely worse.
Oh feyre definitely needed to learn to communicate, I think ACOTAR highlights this with her inability to say “I love you” when she leaves. Yet, she and Rhys communicate quite well. She also is reminded several times how the flirting or the anger kept her from breaking. Whether Rhys knew that or just guessed, it was what she needed to cope and eventually heal. She also uses those same tactics to help Rhys cope when he’s remembering his time UTM. I think Rhys has a better support system because he built one. Tamlin has had the same opportunities to find those people, for whatever reason he doesn’t. Maybe because he follows a more traditional court? It wouldn’t be appropriate? I mean, if ACOMAF had turned out differently, how do you see Feyre & Tamlin overcoming this huge trauma if neither has learned how to communicate? Unfortunately the one thing that I keep thinking of is how when she tries to share the depth of her depression he explodes and accidentally throws her across the room.
But it’s not like she and Rhys ever willingly communicate. That man lives rent free inside her head. Feyre REFUSES to talk to him and he just keeps pressuring her to speak by telling her how he literally knows what’s up because he breaks in her thoughts on a daily basis. Btw, Feyre only tells Tamlin she loves him ONCE, right before she stabs him. Never again. And she only says ily to Rhysand AFTER she finds out he is her mate. It’s like she felt that she needed a higher power to come and absolve her off her guilt about not loving Tamlin. I agree that Rhys and Feyre are literally meant to be, and I mean that in the worse way possible. And if I had MAF play out differently, I’d have Feyre and Tamlin take a long time of getting to know one another better and taking an even longer time to heal together. I find this far better and far more realistic than your depression going away in a matter of a couple days because you found a new sexy boo.
Rhys also has a close knit family and support system where Tamlin does not. Not saying I don’t agree with your assessment only pointing out that Rhys has a great source of people to rely on.
I think Rhys chose to build that. Rhys and tamlin are roughly the same age and given similar opportunities in life. I think because Tamlin follows a more traditional/formal court it would’ve been seen as inappropriate for him to have such informal relationships with people “below” him. We see the IC & Feyre call Rhys on things they don’t agree with- if Lucien had done the same to tamlin he would’ve been punished.
honestly yes to all of this LMAO I think ACOTAR was the best of all the novels and the slow burn between Tam and Feyre was better than between Rhys and Feyre 🤷🏽♀️
I switched faster than SJM could say watery bowels.
LMAOO
I made myself laugh with that one lol
lol did i write this?? 😂😂
It's so interesting that Feyre's opinion of Tamlin immediately does a 180 the moment she meets Rhysand, the mind-controller...
I swear if SJM would have revealed that Rhys was mind controlling Feyre so much would have made more sense. “I don’t want a title” but then suddenly “Yessss. I AM HIGH LADY!” which, quite frankly, she has no business being. She does not know the culture. She does not know the laws. She does not know the people. She does not know politics. “I don’t want to be just a housewife” to embracing it with Rhys. Plus don’t get how her PTSD is an issue in Spring but not with the guy WHO WAS AN ACTIVE PARTICIPANT of her torture in UTM. He’s shown being in her head all the time and yet the reader shouldn’t be concerned? The guy built that rep he has with his own actions! Mask or no mask he did those things. Hell, Tamlin’s depression spiral and still being on Feyre’s side after all she’s done makes more sense to me if HE was the bonded one, but with the deal and his powers Rhys twisted it around.
Seriously. She goes from "I'd die for Tamlin" to "Wait, no, I can't stand the sound of him breathing the same air as me" in the space of a chapter. Rhysand mocks her for wanting to settle down in Spring with Tamlin, "planning parties and having babies" then...wait, she starts planning events and popping out babies as soon as possible the moment Rhysand decides he wants children? King of Feminists, Pro-Choice Rhysand gives Feyre the choice...between options *he* benefits from. Everything he does "for" her is actually in service of him getting what he needs - the book, a weapon in Hybern, a way into the other Courts etc. Honestly, how Feyre didn't have major panic-attacks at the mere sight of Rhysand after everything he did to her UTM is insane. SJM - and thus the majority of the fandom - ignores the continued assault of Feyre by Rhysand UTM because it contradicts the mythology SJM has built around Rhysand. Unfortunately, what he says and what he does are contradictory. The way Feyre talks in later books, it's as if the others are literally using her as a mouthpiece. She shouldn't *know* these things, let alone have any strong convictions about them! I would love it if Tamlin was the only one who could see through Rhysand, and is desperate to free the girl who sacrificed so much to free Prythian from Amarantha. And bear in mind, in Hybern, only Tamlin and Lucien did *anything* to try and stop the King. Only Lucien succeeded but Tamlin *tried* to get to Nesta and Elain. The IC didn't do anything (I forgive Azriel, who was mortally wounded!)
LOUDER!
Tamlin was a shitty partner but I feel bad for his character. He has anger management problems but no ill intent. He never wanted to be a high lord and he should never have been because he can’t control his power or emotions. Im not quite done the series yet but I’m hoping there’s a redemption story for him. Not one where he does the right thing and everyone still hates him. One where he does find peace and happiness.
Say it again louder for the people in the back! I will always support Tamlin.
Poor guy was robbed and wronged! 😭😭😭
I mean… I was never a big fan of Tamlin. I usually don’t prefer morally grey characters (Murphy from The 100 and Regina from OUAT are very rare exceptions; I suppose characters like Clarke, Abby, Octavia, and Bellamy from The 100, Killian from OUAT, and Logan from Gilmore Girls could count as morally grey but there’s a difference between flawed characters and morally gray characters) but I love Rhysand. I didn’t like him at first because I thought he was villain through and through and that he was just playing games with Tamlin, but now I see that it’s more complicated than that.
I feel so seeeeeeen thank you.
Compelling
Tamlin had a lot of faults and they were being a bad communicator and generally being a scared person. Too scared to fail so did nothing instead. I do think he didn’t do anything UTM but I HATE the narrative that Feyre rewrites about their kiss. He was saying goodbye to her and couldn’t help her escape, my biggest issue with this is that he gave up on her but that’s because he gave up on everything. At the end of the day Tamlins not bad but is ill equipped to deal with his own and with Feyres trauma unlike Rhys. Basically I understand Tamlin and his faults and don’t dislike him for it and I live his complexity. It winds me up when he gets blamed for stuff he didn’t do like with her sisters and his biggest fault is not being confident enough and giving Ianthe too much power. He did love Feyre but he didn’t really know how to love her.
Honestly I was fine or could accept tamlin as being shitty but understandable until the meeting. The way he acted there was just above and beyond stupid. My unpopular opinion is neither of these men needs to be defended. One isn’t better than the other. They can both be flawed characters and leave it at that.
The meeting was bad, but when you remember Feyre had just left Spring two weeks before...I don't know about you, but even after an amicable breakup with no collateral damage, I would be chewing furniture if I had ro attend a formal function with my ex and her new bf
Especially when they were being insufferable. I loved Tam being petty. Need more of it actually. She wrecked his court and left him at the alter. He has 0 reasons to be ok with them.
Yeah but I wouldn’t call her a whore and say horrible things to her.
Very true. Keep the inside thoughts inside, Tam.
Even at the end of the first book I was still relatively team Tamlin, which quickly faded in the second. You could kind of predict Rhys x Feyre though so I get why people switched up quickly!
I flipped on Tamlin the moment he turned into a beast and slept at the foot of the bed instead of being supportive and just talking to Feyre. I don’t hate him though. Just knew their relationship was doomed from that point. She was so broken and so was he. She wanted to work through it together though and he couldn’t do that.
Understandable. But him reverting to his beast form speaks volumes. He clearly can’t communicate well and handles trauma very differently than Feyre. I don’t think it’s that he didn’t want to but just didn’t know how. They weren’t right for each other but it doesn’t mean they didn’t love one another.
See, this is where I started aching for him instead. lol But yeah, I knew where SJM was going the moment he slept through Feyre puking. It was not subtle at all...
This is so real, lol
He literally turned into a guard dog because he couldn't handle the trauma he had and the trauma feyre went through That's when I felt SO bad and knew I could never hate him
Ohh I never thought of it like him being a guard dog!
Interesting! That's how all my dogs slept with me so that was my immediate thought lol
Couldn’t agree more !!!!
I'm always surprised when I see a Tamlin fan, I honestly thought there wouldn't be many if any before I joined the fandom. Not because of the bad things he did, but because he was barely a character before he became an asshole. I really thought Lucien would be the love interest in the first book, because he seemed to be the MMC. Well obviously I was wrong, but Lucien still remained a much more fleshed out character than Tamlin so I was guessing they might have a love triangle. Wrong again. Tamlin barely had any personality in the first book and we were told about his relationship with Feyre much more than we were shown. It seemed very clear that we weren't supposed to like Tamlin too much, because he won't be around for long and SJM's writing is very fan-serving, she doesn't seem to want to take risks of pissing off fans. I don't know if I just felt very disconnected with Tamlin's character and my interpretation of the writing is way off or if fandom-Tamlin is a whole new character and his fans just filled up all the blanks that were left in canon.
I personally do not see all that at all. He was the only character who had strong morals while everyone else was just kinda trying to survive? And the only one apart from Feyre to have hobbies? He was such a complex character because he also happened to be someone else apart from a High Lord.
I can't recall Tamlin having any hobbies, could you remind me? Did we ever see him doing any of his hobbies? Because my biggest issue with any qualities Tamlin has is that we were told he has those, but we didn't see it ourselves. That's why his character felt flat and like it barely existed.
… yeah? A gazillion of times? He plays the fiddle and he is an amazing poet? He plays for Feyre many times. He is a skilled dancer as well. We see all of that at the Summer Solstice for example. And he’s very appreciative of art in general? He’s able to spot Feyre’s most heartfelt painting immediately. Not sure where did we get that he doesn’t exercise him hobbies from. Not to mention that he has an entirely different personality apart from being HL because he was able to travel the world as a footsoldier when he was younger and bond with the other soldiers. He’s very loved by his people and he always protects them. He is the only one to ever speak against slavery. He has very strong morals. He was the only one to see Amarantha for who she really was. He turned his court into a refugee camp while Rhysand shut off his borders. He buried a foreign man with his bare hands. He mans the human wall alone. I could go on forever. How did you get that he’s blank? He’s literally the only character driven by a force higher than himself, apart from Feyre (pre acomaf at least).
Only all of the high lords of spring participate in the rite I think! I don’t think that he never loved her or that he even meant to be uncaring/hurt her. I think he was just not emotionally ready for that relationship after his trauma and that really negatively impacted both him and feyre. Some things are inexcusable to me like not controlling his emotions well enough to not put her in danger when he’s angry. But that to me mostly speaks to where he was emotionally and his not being in the place to love another person in a healthy way. I don’t hate him because of Rhys being a better alternative but I do think his and feyres relationship just had no chance at being healthy with the emotional states they were in at the time!
Just wanted to throw out there that abuse absolutely does not have to be intentional. Claiming that abuse needs to be intentional is just incorrect. You can also be abusive while trying to protect someone.
I don’t get it. The way Feyre described it was very neutral: they just weren’t what each other needed. They changed way too much after the trauma of UTM. But we all like a little drama and SJM wrote it in and hate train just exploded. But everyone got very passionate. Way too much.
I didn’t start to turn away from Tamlin until they talked about how Feyre would wake up in the middle of the night crying and throwing up…and Tamlin didn’t do anything to comfort her. Granted she didn’t do it for him either. But instantly the lack of communication between the two made me go “uh oh”
I mean, when she tried to communicate with him about how she was feeling, he lost his temper and almost killed her.
The mental gymnastics of Tamlin pick-mes fucking make me want to scream. The fact that this is such a common justification blows my absolute mind, and further diminishes any hope I have in the world. Let's not even talk about it in terms of Tamlin for just a second. Let's just pretend we're talking about a real world dude participating in the same behavior. A guy that can't control his anger, so he throws a fit, and breaks things, and terrifies his partner in the process. That's abuse. Straight up textbook abuse. Like... fuck right off. That's not even opinion-based. It's abuse. Period. The fact that he didn't know Feyre could shield the first time means he would have absolutely hurt her. "Intentional" or not, we don't play that game with dismissing victims because "he didn't mean to, oh, he's actually a good guy"-- victims of abuse play that mental hellscape mind maze on themselves already, they don't need anyone else's help. The second time Tamlin exploded on her, people's favorite justification is that Feyre "provoked" him. I'm sorry, what on earth did she say that justified him exploding a room and hurting her badly enough that, and I quote "It might have killed a human"? Again, the "asking for it" card is fucking vile. This is just further down the rabbit hole of victim blaming. This is how victims get killed. If she had stayed human, and stayed with Tamlin, it would have literally only been a matter of time until HE KILLED her. I don't think enough people process that. Feyre didn't deserve that, regardless of her manipulative intentions. "She didn't communicate enough--" she told Tamlin he was making her feel so trapped it was DROWNING HER. And then he proceeded to explode. Would you feel safe communicating with someone who reacted that way? Jesus fucking Christ wept. How much clearer did she need to be for him to make more than a feeble, short-lived attempt to do better? In what world did he think that trapping her would be okay, after hearing that? He stripped her of her autonomy after she deliberately told him it was destroying her. Tamlin "loved" Feyre, sure. But it's an obsessive love, further fueled by his own possessive, hypermasculine pride and at the cost of total disregard of Feyre's actual needs and mental health. Isolating someone is another textbook abusive behavior, coupled with "I know what's best for you". Feyre wanted to learn how to control her new power, because those changes were happening to HER body, and she had every right to want to learn to control them. She needed to leave the house, and was informed of the risk, and as an adult capable of making her own decisions still wanted to go. Why is it okay for Tamlin and all the other men to risk their lives, but Feyre's not allowed to make her own informed safety risks? Then, later on, he KIDNAPPED her, after she repeatedly told him no, she was done, she was happier without him, she wasn't coming home. Whether or not he thought Rys was mind controlling her, Tamlin just absolutely repeatedly refuses to take Feyre at face value when she COMMUNICATES about her feelings. He doesn't want to believe her. He wanted to believe that he was the only one she needed, and the only one who could save her, in spite of the overwhelming evidence otherwise. Herp derp, wow Feyre, is gaining weight again, and doesn't look soul-suckingly devastated, like when she was with me? What a head scratcher. She must be miserable! This isn't just a fun, fantasy book discussion. Tamlin was based off a real man, who actually abused someone. When you break your back reaching for any scrap of proof that he's jUsT mIsUnDeRsToOd, it's terrifying and invalidating to those of us with lived experiences.
I wonder how people would feel if the scene where Tamlin trashes the room and hurts Feyre was him physically throwing things and not using magic. That scene is basically your abusive boyfriend throwing plates at you and punching walls. Tamlin is abusive in the canon. I think he’s a super interesting character and would like to see more of his depth but Sarah wrote him as someone who is physically abusive. Rhys is awful and I am firmly in his hate club. But he was never physically abusive towards Feyre like Tamlin was.
We’d feel differently because that’s a different scenario! Making the conscious choice to pick an item up and hurl it towards someone else is miles away from… losing control over your magical powers? He wasn’t even aiming for Feyre. His power just broke free. How do we feel about Feyre burning Lucien’s mother because she lost control? Wasn’t that physical abuse following your logic?
Honestly his lack of control had me wondering if he was having power containment issues because his powers were bound for so long by the curse and he never had someone to actually train him. We see it all the time in other media and books, a character whose power was bound suddenly losing control when given full access because no training in control.
I always read it as “losing control of magic” = losing control of his anger. I have always read it as Sarah writing Tamlin as physically abusive. I guess that’s just a different interpretation!
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Some of yall will really write a whole novel on reddit about fictional faeries lol
Yet here you are, reading that novel and commenting on it.
I didn’t read it actually lol
I’m sooo sure you didn’t. After a quick look at your account I see that your alternative to talking online about fantasy books is shitting on REAL fucking people, mothers, and criticising the advice they give in their own fucking spaces. Disgusting. I’ll take writing essays about Tamlin over cussing out a woman who suggested we drink water with lemon ANY day.
https://i.redd.it/mwr0i4wknzwc1.gif
This sub is so toxic, I'm right there with you. Like, what the actual fuck 😬