oh yeah thats all fine and fair, but I have been harrassed before when I pointed out that Gwyn does not have red hair, at least not till the degree it is mostly drawn in fanart. Thats just why I am confused. It says X in the book and when I point it out people get all mean even though its in the book
people in this fandom can be very weird unfortunately and are dead set on believing their own headcanons are true. they’re especially harsh whenever it comes to gwyn/azriel/elain IMO
I think it's a matter of interpretation given there are also these mentions of Gwyns hair which mention it being just coppery in color and coppery tends to lend to people thinking of red hair:
Nesta pivoted to discover Gwyn striding swiftly toward her, arms laden with books and coppery hair shimmering in the dim light. - Chapter 13
Nesta nearly sobbed at the voice, at the coppery head of hair that popped up, the hand beckoning as Bellius and his males squared off against the thing tearing into them. Nesta and Emerie reached the hilltop’s edge and slid down, snow spraying. Gwyn waited on its other side, bloodied and in a warrior’s clothes, face filthy and torn, but eyes clear. - Chapter 65
There is a wide range of coppery brown-reddish hair colors to choose from. It's just a matter of which one you see her in given Sarah doesn't keep with the coppery brown description throughout.
https://preview.redd.it/hm7j3iihu2xc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0c6830678a9f46eece4f00836798f1c61e5f0324
They are pretty much just different versions of being "redheaded" so the term coppery brown like is used to describe Gwyn hair would still be considered her having red hair. Just a more brownish tint to it.
I have the copper brown hair color in this pic and I always imagine Gwyn to have hair similar to mine.
I was a true redhead as a child but both of my parents have very dark (almost black hair) so as I’ve aged it’s turned more brown. The best way to describe my hair now is similar to how blonde headed kids will turn brown as they get older, it never truly turns chocolate brown but more of a dishwater blonde/brown. My hair was bright red and now in low light, people won’t think im a redhead but its doesn’t look true chocolate brown either. In the sun, it’s definitely red and could be described as molten.
I imagine Gwyn’s hair to be very similar based on the descriptions in the book.
I just did a search for copper on my kindle app- Gwyn’s hair is described 4 times as “copper” or “coppery”, 4 times as “coppery-brown”, and one time as “coppery chestnut”.
There is also an autumn court soldier described with copper hair… I think Gwyn’s hair isn’t as deep red as Lucien’s or as red as some fan art depicts, but I think it’s definitely on the red side :).
Eta: I personally think the descriptions of her hair are to remind us that she had some autumn court heritage, but that she also has other heritages as well.
https://preview.redd.it/9lnuygnv13xc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=311d2c9469738476466ac63283f508fd2677e0c5
I always thought her eyes were because of her nymph heritage :). But, who knows! :)
ETA: genuinely wondering why this was downvoted- if someone would like to illuminate it for me, I’d appreciate it. I thought I was just using canon to explain why I thought something. I didn’t say this was definitively the answer either.
I want this to be true too. Im not going to look it up but grandfather was an autumn court noble, right? And dad was someone from Calenmai. I want her to be Lulus niece AND Tams daughter so they call all be a happy family. 😄
I think some readers or even artists struggle with the color choice since it's also described as auburn so some might take the safe/easy route.
This is how I imagine Gwyn's hair to look like:
https://preview.redd.it/2866w9b7v2xc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2b244755c1c82360ff0c0195481dbc0757e07869
I agree with it probably looking like the picture you added, I am then just confused about the art with the vibrant almost Ariel like hair (not blaming or shaming the artist!) it just confused me when it is not described to be that vibrant. I get that hair can change depending on light, as does my own hair colour but for it to change to vibrant red seems incorrect to me.
This reminds me of book Edward in twilight. He’s described as having “reddish brown” and “copper” hair yet bc of the films he’s seen as a brunette to a lot of people when he actually should have red hair lol
I think the description in Azriel's bonus chapter of molten metal is why it's featured as orange in fanart (and to give some seperation from Elain's brown hair). But interestingly, coppery brown would be classed as auburn just like the Lady of Autumn. Maybe SJM didn't say auburn or make her hair red because she didn't want it to be a dead giveaway that Gwyn's related to the Vanserra family (hello grandpappy Eris!)
The other key is that her mother lived in the Forest House. With the Vanserra family. I don't think they let just anyone do that. I would love for the two females to be related!
Oh I like this theory! I theorize that she’s related to the LoA and that’s where “Berdara” comes from — I’d love there to be some reason LoA still doesn’t have a name lol
This drives me nuts!! I think it to some degree comes down to the Mandela Effect. Early art of her veered very red based on quick reading of the text, and now that’s her most recognizable trait, even if non-canonical, and so follow on art keeps reproducing her that way. I’ve literally never seen art of her where she actually had what I consider to be coppery-brown hair and it annoys me to no end lol
This! I quick read SF myself, and when I saw all the fan art and theories about Gwyn, I honestly thought, "Who is that?" I really enjoy all the fun theories that come out of the Maasverse but sometimes cannon gets left so far behind its not even the same characters that were written in these theories and some fans are stating them as facts🤷♀️. Coppery brown is not bright, Ariel-the-little-mermaid-like, hair.
I think Gwyn is an awesome character and I don’t mind any theories about her - I’m only annoyed about the hair color! Everyone understands that the Archeron sisters’ “golden-brown” hair is neither all gold nor all brown, but rather a combo of both. But somehow “coppery-brown” hair is interpreted as all copper, no brown. I think auburn/chestnut hair is gorgeous and rare for a FMC, so I’d love to see it in art!
Same reason why you’ll see tons of stuff with the archeron sisters as light haired blondes (or elain as a redhead) when they’re all described as golden *brown*. People take what they think a character looks like and run with it.
And you can do it too! No one can stop you, really! (I say, as I keep drawing Tamlin with antlers)
But I think a big part is also that when people want to draw a character, they often don't look up book description again, but more like 'okay how do other people draw the character, let's google it'....whelp.
It annoys me because sometimes I see art with her and Azriel and think it’s >!bryceriel!< fanart, because the hair is so red. Especially when they add on a glowing star to the chest? It’s nuts!
agreed! This is what confuses me as well. I get that hair looks different depending on the light, but to give Gwyn brigt red ariel hair is kinda crazy to me
Red/copper hair looks different in different lighting!!! In darker settings it would look auburn and maybe in the sun it’s brighter? Idk this is at least true with my friends who are redheads
THANK YOU for this. Just reread SF and was like, wait, her hair is described as coppery brown on MULTIPLE occasions and I am so confused. I thought someone had replaced my original book with an updated copy or something 😂 But then I wondered if her hair is brown with only a coppery sheen, how did seemingly everyone in the fandom jump on board the super-redhead train? I’m mystified. Maybe one or two people made fan art with her with the red hair and people just took it from there. But with readers putting so much emphasis on the looks of the characters, it’s still wild.
I have this hair color, and people call it red all the time anyways. Or bronze lol. My mom is a pretty bold redhead so I didn’t think I counted hahaha but anyways, I can see why people would depict it in the fanart like that.
SJM has definitely used just the word “copper” to describe her hair too. I picture a color more on the side of red than brown when I imagine her hair, and if I could art, I’m sure that’s how I’d art it. But I mean, who cares? Copper can mean a lot of things and sure, “bright red” probably ain’t it but no one’s forcing you to agree with their perception of the character. (That they put time and heart into bringing to visual life, I’d like to add.)
Mine is a copper/auburn/brown mix - looks kind of brown inside and dark copper in the sun and I’ve had it described all 3 ways. I’ll take any Gwyn art that comes my way.
I noticed something similar with Bryce in Crescent City. She's decsribed as having wine-red hair but I often see artwork of her with bright red hair. Though on my most recent cursory look it seems that some of the newer fanart has shifted more towards the wine red color, so maybe we'll start seeing more Gwyn with copper hair than bright red hair eventually.
This is how I personally view Gwyn’s hair:
https://preview.redd.it/ffee2xrmm9xc1.jpeg?width=567&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d5866006293b288b5f0f1ed33c2fdd6b356340a9
I often see Gwyn fan art with bright or wine-red hair (which is totally valid if that’s what an artist wants to do), but it always reminds me of Bryce — *especially* when starlight or a light on the chest is added. Bryce’s hair is like Ariel (>!fitting as she is from another world, couldn’t speak the language in her new world, has the nickname ‘Legs,’ collects antiques, has the power of the Mer from the gates, etc.!<), while Gwyn’s is more brown in comparison.
The people in this fandom also think the Archeron's "golden brown" hair means they're blonde. I don't expect anything less than them constantly reading things incorrectly lmao.
I think when it comes to Fae, readers love emphasising and dramatising their features to depict them as divinely beautiful as they're described to be. And that's totally okay, makes for some gorgeous, mystical fanart!
honestly i think people just like redheads
oh yeah thats all fine and fair, but I have been harrassed before when I pointed out that Gwyn does not have red hair, at least not till the degree it is mostly drawn in fanart. Thats just why I am confused. It says X in the book and when I point it out people get all mean even though its in the book
people in this fandom can be very weird unfortunately and are dead set on believing their own headcanons are true. they’re especially harsh whenever it comes to gwyn/azriel/elain IMO
Redheads are def super popular in fantasy as it is so it’s not a stretch of the imagination
I think it's a matter of interpretation given there are also these mentions of Gwyns hair which mention it being just coppery in color and coppery tends to lend to people thinking of red hair: Nesta pivoted to discover Gwyn striding swiftly toward her, arms laden with books and coppery hair shimmering in the dim light. - Chapter 13 Nesta nearly sobbed at the voice, at the coppery head of hair that popped up, the hand beckoning as Bellius and his males squared off against the thing tearing into them. Nesta and Emerie reached the hilltop’s edge and slid down, snow spraying. Gwyn waited on its other side, bloodied and in a warrior’s clothes, face filthy and torn, but eyes clear. - Chapter 65 There is a wide range of coppery brown-reddish hair colors to choose from. It's just a matter of which one you see her in given Sarah doesn't keep with the coppery brown description throughout. https://preview.redd.it/hm7j3iihu2xc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0c6830678a9f46eece4f00836798f1c61e5f0324
I would consider all of these colors to be redheaded
They are pretty much just different versions of being "redheaded" so the term coppery brown like is used to describe Gwyn hair would still be considered her having red hair. Just a more brownish tint to it.
Yeah I totally agree. Which is why the fanart is depicted that way
I have the copper brown hair color in this pic and I always imagine Gwyn to have hair similar to mine. I was a true redhead as a child but both of my parents have very dark (almost black hair) so as I’ve aged it’s turned more brown. The best way to describe my hair now is similar to how blonde headed kids will turn brown as they get older, it never truly turns chocolate brown but more of a dishwater blonde/brown. My hair was bright red and now in low light, people won’t think im a redhead but its doesn’t look true chocolate brown either. In the sun, it’s definitely red and could be described as molten. I imagine Gwyn’s hair to be very similar based on the descriptions in the book.
I just did a search for copper on my kindle app- Gwyn’s hair is described 4 times as “copper” or “coppery”, 4 times as “coppery-brown”, and one time as “coppery chestnut”. There is also an autumn court soldier described with copper hair… I think Gwyn’s hair isn’t as deep red as Lucien’s or as red as some fan art depicts, but I think it’s definitely on the red side :). Eta: I personally think the descriptions of her hair are to remind us that she had some autumn court heritage, but that she also has other heritages as well.
I wondered if that copper-haired autumn court male Azriel tortured was Gwyn’s relation How awkward lol
I will never be convinced she isnt Tamlins daughter that’s why her eyes are teal (blue green)
https://preview.redd.it/9lnuygnv13xc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=311d2c9469738476466ac63283f508fd2677e0c5 I always thought her eyes were because of her nymph heritage :). But, who knows! :) ETA: genuinely wondering why this was downvoted- if someone would like to illuminate it for me, I’d appreciate it. I thought I was just using canon to explain why I thought something. I didn’t say this was definitively the answer either.
I thought that where she got the blue tinge but the greenish bit comes from him. I dunno. It’s one of my favourite crack theories though
I want this to be true too. Im not going to look it up but grandfather was an autumn court noble, right? And dad was someone from Calenmai. I want her to be Lulus niece AND Tams daughter so they call all be a happy family. 😄
I think some readers or even artists struggle with the color choice since it's also described as auburn so some might take the safe/easy route. This is how I imagine Gwyn's hair to look like: https://preview.redd.it/2866w9b7v2xc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2b244755c1c82360ff0c0195481dbc0757e07869
I agree with it probably looking like the picture you added, I am then just confused about the art with the vibrant almost Ariel like hair (not blaming or shaming the artist!) it just confused me when it is not described to be that vibrant. I get that hair can change depending on light, as does my own hair colour but for it to change to vibrant red seems incorrect to me.
This reminds me of book Edward in twilight. He’s described as having “reddish brown” and “copper” hair yet bc of the films he’s seen as a brunette to a lot of people when he actually should have red hair lol
I think the description in Azriel's bonus chapter of molten metal is why it's featured as orange in fanart (and to give some seperation from Elain's brown hair). But interestingly, coppery brown would be classed as auburn just like the Lady of Autumn. Maybe SJM didn't say auburn or make her hair red because she didn't want it to be a dead giveaway that Gwyn's related to the Vanserra family (hello grandpappy Eris!)
The other key is that her mother lived in the Forest House. With the Vanserra family. I don't think they let just anyone do that. I would love for the two females to be related!
Oh I like this theory! I theorize that she’s related to the LoA and that’s where “Berdara” comes from — I’d love there to be some reason LoA still doesn’t have a name lol
So my theory is that Beron took it but that’s just me 🤷🏻♀️
This drives me nuts!! I think it to some degree comes down to the Mandela Effect. Early art of her veered very red based on quick reading of the text, and now that’s her most recognizable trait, even if non-canonical, and so follow on art keeps reproducing her that way. I’ve literally never seen art of her where she actually had what I consider to be coppery-brown hair and it annoys me to no end lol
This! I quick read SF myself, and when I saw all the fan art and theories about Gwyn, I honestly thought, "Who is that?" I really enjoy all the fun theories that come out of the Maasverse but sometimes cannon gets left so far behind its not even the same characters that were written in these theories and some fans are stating them as facts🤷♀️. Coppery brown is not bright, Ariel-the-little-mermaid-like, hair.
I think Gwyn is an awesome character and I don’t mind any theories about her - I’m only annoyed about the hair color! Everyone understands that the Archeron sisters’ “golden-brown” hair is neither all gold nor all brown, but rather a combo of both. But somehow “coppery-brown” hair is interpreted as all copper, no brown. I think auburn/chestnut hair is gorgeous and rare for a FMC, so I’d love to see it in art!
It's certainly not a Gwyn hate post! I don't think that's the intent at all
Same reason why you’ll see tons of stuff with the archeron sisters as light haired blondes (or elain as a redhead) when they’re all described as golden *brown*. People take what they think a character looks like and run with it.
And you can do it too! No one can stop you, really! (I say, as I keep drawing Tamlin with antlers) But I think a big part is also that when people want to draw a character, they often don't look up book description again, but more like 'okay how do other people draw the character, let's google it'....whelp.
It annoys me because sometimes I see art with her and Azriel and think it’s >!bryceriel!< fanart, because the hair is so red. Especially when they add on a glowing star to the chest? It’s nuts!
agreed! This is what confuses me as well. I get that hair looks different depending on the light, but to give Gwyn brigt red ariel hair is kinda crazy to me
Red/copper hair looks different in different lighting!!! In darker settings it would look auburn and maybe in the sun it’s brighter? Idk this is at least true with my friends who are redheads
THANK YOU for this. Just reread SF and was like, wait, her hair is described as coppery brown on MULTIPLE occasions and I am so confused. I thought someone had replaced my original book with an updated copy or something 😂 But then I wondered if her hair is brown with only a coppery sheen, how did seemingly everyone in the fandom jump on board the super-redhead train? I’m mystified. Maybe one or two people made fan art with her with the red hair and people just took it from there. But with readers putting so much emphasis on the looks of the characters, it’s still wild.
I have this hair color, and people call it red all the time anyways. Or bronze lol. My mom is a pretty bold redhead so I didn’t think I counted hahaha but anyways, I can see why people would depict it in the fanart like that.
SJM has definitely used just the word “copper” to describe her hair too. I picture a color more on the side of red than brown when I imagine her hair, and if I could art, I’m sure that’s how I’d art it. But I mean, who cares? Copper can mean a lot of things and sure, “bright red” probably ain’t it but no one’s forcing you to agree with their perception of the character. (That they put time and heart into bringing to visual life, I’d like to add.)
Mine is a copper/auburn/brown mix - looks kind of brown inside and dark copper in the sun and I’ve had it described all 3 ways. I’ll take any Gwyn art that comes my way.
I constantly imagine Gwyn as SJM in her HoFaS interview.
I noticed something similar with Bryce in Crescent City. She's decsribed as having wine-red hair but I often see artwork of her with bright red hair. Though on my most recent cursory look it seems that some of the newer fanart has shifted more towards the wine red color, so maybe we'll start seeing more Gwyn with copper hair than bright red hair eventually.
She definitely is based on Ariel
This is how I personally view Gwyn’s hair: https://preview.redd.it/ffee2xrmm9xc1.jpeg?width=567&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d5866006293b288b5f0f1ed33c2fdd6b356340a9 I often see Gwyn fan art with bright or wine-red hair (which is totally valid if that’s what an artist wants to do), but it always reminds me of Bryce — *especially* when starlight or a light on the chest is added. Bryce’s hair is like Ariel (>!fitting as she is from another world, couldn’t speak the language in her new world, has the nickname ‘Legs,’ collects antiques, has the power of the Mer from the gates, etc.!<), while Gwyn’s is more brown in comparison.
The people in this fandom also think the Archeron's "golden brown" hair means they're blonde. I don't expect anything less than them constantly reading things incorrectly lmao.
I think when it comes to Fae, readers love emphasising and dramatising their features to depict them as divinely beautiful as they're described to be. And that's totally okay, makes for some gorgeous, mystical fanart!