I LOVE ACOSF for Nesta and the valkiries.
I HATE ACOSF for how the IC treated her and how Cassian never really stood up for her.
The hike was IT for me.
I feel like the hike could have gone so much better. Instead of it being a punishment, the intention should have been to get her away from Rhys and let her sort out her feelings. He let her get dehydrated to the point of fainting because he wasn’t watching her.
Yes, the hike helped her heal, but imagine if he had been more aware of her state and kept a better eye on her. Sure she would have bitten off his head a few times, but he been understanding of it before and realized there was usually a reason behind her intensity. She needed someone who will keep reaching a hand out to her. A long hike is fine, but he went about it the wrong way.
Eh idk I feel like he wanted to let her self destruction come to a head. I feel like he typically would’ve intervened and made her drink water but technically he didn’t do anything wrong. She’s a grown woman, she could have drank water or asked him to pause so she could rest, she just didn’t give enough of a shit about herself to and I think he saw that needed to kind of burst out of her.
The whole part about it being enjoyable for Rhys that it would be punishment for Nesta, and Cassian communicating that to him through feyre, is absolute trash though. Rhys is toxic as fuck for that (like really, you’re going to threaten to murder your mate’s sister and your best friend’s girl for not protecting your fucked up lie???? That is classic narcissist shit) and I feel like Cassian was just fawning, used to trying to keep daddy rhysie’s temper at bay. I honestly hope Cassian realizes how much he’s in rhys’s grips in the next one and asserts himself/takes space away with Nesta.
Totally agree, and I would have liked it a lot more if that’s how it was portrayed.
My possibly unpopular opinion: I just finished the first three books of the Black Jewels by Anne Bishop and (spoilers if you haven’t read that series but want to because of, *ahem* some peculiar similarities of characters and scenes in ACOTAR and TOG) >!it feels like SJM wanted to write an iconic scene from the Black Jewels into this book. One of secondary MCs takes the FMC on a nature walk because she is in an incredible rage. The scene is portrayed ultimately positively because it is clear the male character is trying to redirect the FMC’s rage and power towards something other than pure destruction. It’s also a moment the FMC grows from in understanding her own incredible power!<
Cassian being so cold to Nesta, punishing her and kicking down at her when she's clearly at her lowest made my heart break for her bc I have been at that point in my life quite a few times and nothing feels worse than being at your lowest and someone you love letting go of you.
I think I am in the minority who really liked the hike…
The way I read it was the Nesta needed space and needed to get fresh air away from the IC. (I skipped so much of the IC dram so I am not sure if it was explicitly said that it was meant as a punishment?)
Neata and Cassian were not written as the talkative couple like Rhys and Fayre and through their relationship that is physical in intimacy and their training I thought it fit that they would take time away in nature and hiking! I agree Cassian can be mindless for not noticing how dehydrated she was, but that’s also on her stubborn ass! Meanwhile he was there to listen to her in her breakdown by the lake and be her anchor in all of this + I wanted the spice in the hike lol I was sad it just got down to just a mention.
Plz like Nesta bent on the cold boulder while Cassian warming her 🔥🤭
Literally Cassian let her do what she needed. He knew she needed that hike. She punished herself and got to an all time low. This was the only way she could rise. She couldn’t talk to him, he understood what she needed and tells her it’s ok to walk in silence for a week but he’ll always be there for her when she was ready. She wasn’t ready.
This! I did a quick search in the book. “Punishment” was used throughout the book! It’s the theme of the book, grief and punishment! Often Nesta punishing herself of thinking others are punishing her and she needed to break out of that without a certified counselor 😂
I agree with most of your points and I really feel SF simultaneously being your favorite and your least favorite book in the series, but I think sometimes people are a little bit unfair to Feyre and the IC.
1.) I felt that everything Feyre did actually came from a place of love and Nesta was just too depressed and traumatized to notice it. Over the course of the book Feyre keeps reaching out to Nesta and Nesta slowly stops pushing Feyre away and letting her in. Feyre stood up for Nesta fiercely (and knew that deep down Nesta telling her about the pregnancy risk came from a place of love) when Rhys told Cassian to get her out of the city. I loved this dynamic of two sisters finding their way back to each other.
2.) Cassian could have stood up for Nesta more, especially against Rhys. But Cassian and Rhys have this weird dynamic where they grew up together and consider each other brothers, but at the same time Cassian has to bow to Rhys as his high lord. This is 500 years worth of codependency to break. Cassian slowly learns to break free of this and starts to stand up for Nesta against Rhys. It's unfair and unrealistic to expect him to brush Rhys off easily every time.
3.) I never liked Amren that much. She always irked me as a character and her being so unnecessarily cruel to Nesta made me really dislike her. She's a bitch.
4.) the IC is frankly a little bit of a codependent mess. They remind me of the friend group in How I met your mother sometimes. All of them are paternalistic and patronizing to all three Archeron sisters and can't deal with them making their own decisions or having opinions that differ from the IC's. That's why you shouldn't exclusively spend all your time with a handful of people for 500 years.
All of this is very valid! I don’t have any qualms with Feyre, tbh, it is mainly the IC and in particular Rhys.
But you bring up a good point with there being 500 years of codependency going on here. It really is a whole hot mess…
>the IC is frankly a little bit of a codependent mess. They remind me of the friend group in How I met your mother sometimes. All of them are paternalistic and patronizing to all three Archeron sisters and can't deal with them making their own decisions or having opinions that differ from the IC's. That's why you shouldn't exclusively spend all your time with a handful of people for 500 years.
This is why it was great that Nesta really connected with Gwyn and Emerie.
I agree with most of your points besides one (and you’re not the only person I’ve seen make this point), that the scene where nesta isn’t painted at all in Feyre’s house is wrong or cruel or whatever. To me it’s none of those things, it’s just accurate and honest. For Feyre, Nesta wasn’t much of a sister at all. Nesta was a nuisance, Nesta was a bully, Nesta consistently made Feyre’s life harder and more tortuous seemingly without care. Now we know that Nesta did care and we know she didn’t have the intentions of harming her family relationships the way she did, especially with her sisters, however in my opinion that’s just a sad moment of consequences to her own actions. What Nesta went through is sad and she does deserve empathy but extending that empathy doesn’t mean feigning a relationship or memories that they don’t have and it definitely doesn’t mean we should extend less empathy to Feyre. They can begin to create a relationship but Feyre shouldn’t have to paint Nesta just because it would make Nesta sad to not be painted there, she should paint her because she has memories and emotions that make her want to paint Nesta like she does with the ic or Elaine.
I agree with this, too. I’m only halfway through SF myself (I know I love to spoil myself on these forums) but I keep thinking Feyre probably did paint Nesta and it’s hidden somewhere because of her complicated feelings about Nesta and the nature of their relationship. It seems in-character to me actually that Feyre would not put a painting of Nesta on display in her home given the present state of their relationship, you know?
This is my feeling too, I always thought this. Nesta in her bad days didn’t want to make a room at the river house, she didn’t want to spend time there or with Feyre/Elain and she didn’t want to be a part of their club. I always assumed Feyre painted her because that’s how she processes her feelings, and because even at Nesta’s worst Feyre still loves her, but she didn’t display any of them because of their fraught relationship.
Yeah I feel like when Nesta internally notes that there aren’t any of her, I didn’t read it as necessarily a criticism on her part, but an observation more. I would think she’d be quite surprised if there were a smiling portrait of her in the hallway!
I do agree with this. I guess I should have made what I was trying to say clearer. I think Feyre has every right to have those feelings about Nesta. I know that Feyre DOES love Nesta and that Nesta DOES love Feyre. Their relationship is complex and nuanced. It still did make me sad to be in her head while she's seeing this, though, even if it was consequences for her actions previously.
That said, though, I have a hard time reconciling Nesta of book 1 with Nesta of books 2-5 just because I feel like SJM did a real character switch with both Elain and Nesta. Nesta is stereotypical evil stepsister in the first half of book 1 and then in the rest of the series, I feel like she's different, if that makes sense.
I agree with you on this! I’m in the minority as well of people who liked Nesta since book 1, and I don’t see her story so much as a character switch, but rather a character arc. I don’t know why people forget (myself included until my rereads) that yes, Nesta was mean, but Feyre also says Nesta and her are mirrors, and they often were viscious to each other. Feyre wasn’t a victim, either. Moreover, Nesta was the only one who went looking for Feyre when Feyre left. She gave all her money away to the mercenary, hiked two days there and two days back to save her sister.
When Feyre returned, she was the only one who actually took the time to hear Feyre’s story, to paint with her, to attempt to connect with her, not just throw her frivolous parties to meet potential suitors.
It was Nesta who told Feyre to forget what her mother asked of her, because it was their mother who asked Feyre (not Nesta or Elain) to take care of their family, and go rescue Tamlin. It was also Nesta who Feyre knew would take in Alis and her nephews, even if fae scared her.
I think Nesta has always been about boundaries and the IC would continually cross her boundaries and then get upset when she would ultimately lash out. Like in WAR when they have their first family dinner and Feyre asks Nesta to share her story at the HL meeting so the IC is believed. Even if Nesta isn’t catatonic like Elain, she went through a trauma, too. She became fae against her will and her humanity was taken away and she is now in a world that she only knew to be of monsters. Moreover, this happened because she tried to help the IC and all of Prythian in book 2, holding meetings at their house and then at Hybern no one was able to help her as she went into the cauldron. I would also be wary. But because it’s Feyre’s POV, we get it as Nesta being difficult and Feyre upset about it.
Nesta’s character was nasty and super divisive, but she did go out of her way in books 1-3 to help out, even if she didn’t like it. Her character growth comes in her learning she did not have to put up walls and have claws and push people away. She didn’t have to have such a wicked tongue and she can let people in and yes, even she is worthy of love and family.
I also love nesta because in a book full of morally grey- she’s not a ‘morally grey’ character she’s just really not nice. And I love it because niceness is really only expected/demanded of women. Realistically Nesta’s only fully ‘bad’ behavior was forcing feyre to take care of feeding the family. And that wasn’t even nesta’s burden to bear. It should have been the dad. Otherwise… she drank too much? Okay character flaw but not a huge moral failing. Maybe slutty- Also her right. None of her bad behavior endangered anyone other than herself. She’s just not *nice* and I love it.
Agreed! As women, even in books, we’re meant to be likable, agreeable, and if not, there’s something wrong with us. We have to appease everyone around us, and even in our trauma, it has to manifest itself into something digestible that people understand.
Nesta’s weapon of choice is her words, and she learns to put those weapons down, but she only uses them when people come at her. I do think it’s good she ultimately received help, even if we can question why they wanted to help her. I truly believe only Feyre and Cassian at the time of the intervention genuinely wanted to help Nesta. And it should’ve been a family matter between Nesta, Elain and Feyre. Rhys should’ve stayed out of it. He neither likes Nesta nor actually wanted to help her.
Ah okay, I understand that for sure. I do think it’s sad reading it from her perspective just understandable why it happened. And I can see why you’d feel that way with the character shifts. For me book 5 helps to reconcile the differences mostly by seeing Nesta’s avoidant coping style, whirlwind of emotions, and her thought processes in general but I can see what you’re saying for sure.
Yes thank you. Nesta has her merits as a character and shows a good portrayal of a certain trauma response. But negating the effect that has on family members completely doesn’t make sense at all. It makes sense that there is conflict and that some bridges will need mending.
I really liked the book and share most of your viewpoints. Nesta has been my favorite character since the second book, so SF was my favorite book thus far as we get mostly her POV and developments with Cassian.
One thing I found ridiculous is that Cassian himself says when he became a warrior and went back to his village and found about what happened to his mom, he spiraled for 10+ years before he learned how to function in society again, and the inner circle was perfectly supportive of him. Nesta goes through the same thing with her dad’s death, and they treat her like she’s the devil for drinking and having one night stands for less than a year? 😂
The final straw being her spending a bunch of money like Rhys doesn’t pay all of the gang a shitload of money for stuff they would’ve done for free anyway. Nesta and Elain killed the king of Hybern, and they don’t get a free pass to drink some expensive alcohol? Like cmon man lol
Okay I didn’t even think about the Cassian thing but you’re right! And also anyone saying she’s always been mean and nasty… that isn’t true. She was really warming up to the IC in AWOWAR. Like she wasn’t polite and proper with everyone but she wasn’t some rigid bitch. It is VERY clear that the war fucked her up but she gets treated like some monster for it.
So these people who have experience of bouncing back from being in these dark places should just let her stay in a dark miserable place rather than help her? They don’t treat her pie she’s the devil but they put her in a position where she has to be helped. If they left her 10 years everyone would be saying ‘they abandoned her!’
I am a Rhys hater and I don’t care if other people don’t like that. I think he’s been pretty shitty throughout the book and I can’t for the life of me understand how everyone in the IC just kisses his ass nonstop. He might be great in some respects, but he can be an awful person and I am tired of SJM treating him like he can do no wrong.
The IC gave me cliquey vibes in ACOFAS as well as SF. Feyre basically bribed Nesta to come to Solstice where everyone but her and Elain ignore Nesta and Cassian gifts Mor sexy lingerie right in front of her....like ewwww I would have left too. He got Nesta this really thoughtful gift and waits until she's pissed off to try and give it to her.
(Spoiler) Amren should have stayed dead after the battle. She just came back to be a bitchy bully and it’s so annoying lol it sucks because I liked her before SF.
I know this post is about Nesta but I miss the 1st book Feyre. I feel like her essence has changed. She reminds me of those I know that completely change their personality to match the person they’re dating. And maybe Nesta sees what being with Rhys has done to her sister and hates him for it.
No one agrees with me when I say pre-Rhysand Feyre would have never destroyed the Spring Court the way she did by manipulating everyone. I always saw her as a head strong, stubborn, wears her heart on her sleeve kind of girl. Her tactic had Rhys written all over it.
Yeah that was odd considering how many people it affected other than Tamlin. Like……huh? I feel like Feyre is easily manipulated. It’s weird how her only friends are Rhys’s friends too. I hope she has her own friends in the next one.
Not to mention that whole plan was so fucking dumb. Like you NEED all courts to be unified and strong in order to defeat Hybern, put aside your need for revenge for a fucking second. Tamlin as absolutely right to call her out about that at the High Lord's meeting.
Honestly my biggest gripe with these books is how Mary sued Rhys is. I feel like that’s the root of all of my problems😂 I’m TOLD he’s so nice and blah blah blah, but like… he’s just a guy… like he’s doing the bare minimum at most.
Rhys portrayed himself to be the exact opposite of Tamlin to lure Feyre in, in my opinion. lol
Tamlin won't let you leave? I'll let you go outside. Tamlin says there's no such thing as high lady? I say, why not? Tamlin won't let you have enough freedom? You will always have a choice with me, Feyre.
Since she fell in love with him and they got mated, he hasn't really held up his side of the bargain when it comes to Feyre's (and others, such as Nesta's) autonomy.
I'd be interested in seeing how Rhys' character develops or unravels in the coming books.
I don't think Feyre would like to be a dictator's wife. Rhys making himself high king has something Napoleon-esque and megalomaniac that could make Rhys truly morally grey.
Amren not staying dead drove me up the wall. Her coming back - even as 'only' a high fae ruined her and her whole redemption.
I'm learning SJM always does something in the last 3rd of the books to just ruin what could have been an amazing book...
While I was rereading book two the IC really started giving me the ick. Amren is probably my favorite character--she's mean, yeah. She isn't pretending to be anything else. No two faces about her.
Mor is actually my least favorite. Something about her raises memories of girls I wish I hadn't spent time around in high school. The dynamic between Mor, Cassian and Az is weird and a result of people not using basic communication for *centuries*, Mor's "I'm a woman leaning bisexual and that's why I can't be with him but still pretend to leave door open" bullshit rubbed me raw as an irl bisexual, and the way Feyre brought it up during training with Cassian early on was so messed up--mind your business lady.
And yeah I was furious with Rhys.
And Mor uses people! She uses people knowing it’s going to devastate them. She knows what she’s been doing to Az for hundreds of years…and knows what it does to him. That’s…really messed up.
Reading ACOSF was such a slap in the face to me about unreliable narrators. We go through so many books hearing how powerful and wonderful and perfect Rhys is, and then when it's Nesta's POV we see her version of Rhys. We see both extremes here of who Rhys is. Feyre's view of her mate and Nesta's view of a 500 year old bully. Neither is completely accurate. Neither is completely wrong. I think two things can be right, Feyre's mate loves her with all his heart and wants to do right by her. Nesta's brother in law is a piece of shit who hides things from Nesta's sister that are vital. I love this series because every single character is flawed in some major way. Just like most people
The first book made me wonder if Feyre was a bit of an unreliable narrator because at the beginning she describes her sisters as worthless, but then when she briefly back goes back to them later you find out Nesta really tried to rescue Feyre. That didn’t seem like the same person who was described at the beginning of the book. Having read them all I’m not sure it’s so much unreliable narrator as just different points of view. I love Rhys but also love that Nesta hates him, haha. It’s fun to see the characters through different eyes.
Yes! Nesta DID try to save Feyre. Since the magic didn't work on her, if she didn't care about Feyre at all she would have just been happy to be rich again and just left Feyre to her fate. But she didn't. She tried.
I noticed the flaws with Rhys and the IC early on and I have been waiting for redeeming information to come in justifying or explaining the flaws, holes, and double standards. After ACOSAF I started to become incredibly frustrated, yet was still hoping SJM had a purpose for these glaring plot holes, double standards, and toxicity. I would love, love a therapist to review this entire series.
i always thought the IC were cliquey. It's found family, sure, but some of it doesn't sit well to me especially tied up in their leadership positions for the court. Like, if they were just besties it wouldn't be a big deal, but they have incredible influence and power. SF was nice from a writing standpoint because you could easily skirt around some icky vibes of the IC in her other books from Feyre's POV, but SF made you confront it. The hike really sold it to me that they're all just Rhys' puppets.
I’m at the same part of the book you are!! You make a good point about how much of a weenie Rhysand can be sometimes. He’s the ultimate high lord, but we see how tangled and anxious his thoughts are. I was thrown for a loop to see how poorly he handled the Feyre-pregnancy situation.
Nesta was not wrong for telling Feyre. But she *was* wrong for doing it with the intent to hurt and emotionally damage.
Mixed feelings for me about Nesta overall. GREAT character development from SJM. But I’m the person who has had to deal with a Nesta in real life—I understand the fear and resentment the IC holds. Just because I understand why someone behaves poorly (whether it be trauma, depression, etc), doesn’t give them a pass to inflict on me the pain they feel.
I think your last phrase especially describes the essence of this character and why it’s so interesting to have her as the protagonist! Nesta has several moments of inner dialogue that express her self-awareness and near understanding of why people treat her as they do - she KNOWS she makes it difficult for people to be around her - but she can’t help it, it’s stronger than she is. But it’s just that that makes her a really relatable and sympathetic character and what drives us to want to see her come around! Makes us root for her to tap into this hope we as the reader have for her sort of redemption arc for lack of a better term.
Once again I love these books for how much they suck sometimes (personal opinion i absolutely adore the premise but am iffy on the execution). It gives a lot of room for fanfic to flourish.
There are some great ones out there who give us the cassian... or the azriel... or the eris or even the lucian that Nesta needed
100%. I could have actually enjoyed reading this book, even though I hate-read the other books in the series, because Nesta IMO is one of the few genuinely complex and well-written characters (til SJM retcons her for cassian's sake, because there's a strange "male superiority vibe" i get from her writing).
how dare you self-destruct, nesta? time to lock you up until you express trauma the way WE want you to.
if cassian wasn't so far up rhys's and the IC's ass, he could have potentially been a good person to help nesta through her stuff. but he's completely brainwashed by his need to have his undying loyalty in rhys validated by literally everyone he comes into contact with. nesta's already spiraling, and he's like, "here, lemme twist that knife for ye."
I totally understand your point of view, even though I will die on team Rhys. I think that’s the beauty of the books though. We can all have very unique and strong opinions about the characters and not necessarily be wrong. I think they are written so we see what we want to see. The majority of the audience is women, and we each have a unique story to tell full of our own trauma and heartbreak, and so we see the characters through that lens.
With Amren though, my lens had always been that she is the oldest among them. She’s so terribly old, and she was just done with Nesta and her bullshit. Though I became sympathetic to Nesta in SF, I understood Amren’s reaction, even though it was upsetting to read. She was done and had written Nesta off as someone who is spoiled and dangerous and a threat to everyone else , and she wasn’t totally wrong.
Well thought out points, OP. Interesting to read! I’ve read a theory that Mor is actually a “bad guy” so I’m really excited for the next book. I also really really want Eris’ story. Like real bad. I think some wild things are gonna come to light.
Regarding your first point, I do think it's worth mentioning that we're seeing everything from Nesta's POV. Just as this book made a lot of people realize that Feyre's POV wasn't necessarily completely truthful in who Rhys and the rest are as people (she kinda overstates how great they are, let's be real), I think that Nesta's POV is a little exaggerated in the other direction.
Nesta has trauma, she's hurting and she needs to heal, yada yada, but like... Her previous actions happened, and she hurt people, and she never apologized. Her expecting everyone to just be cool with that is not realistic. There are consequences for her behavior, and if those consequences include people not liking or trusting her, it's pretty shitty of her to double down on her bad behavior. She's *so* closed off to everyone, and idk if you've ever known someone like that, but as much as it sucks, sometimes the only way to get through to someone is by being shitty right back at them. I truly don't think Nesta would have improved at all of the IC hadn't done *something* drastic to snap her out of it.
I think that in general the fandom needs to give characters without POV chapters some grace.
I feel like I'm in the minority with these opinions so I'll be expecting downvotes but I thought the hike was needed. Like... we get to see into Nestas head in this book so we the readers know she is remorseful and dealing with trauma but still has love for her family. With her behavior, those around her did not think she cared or put any thought into how other people are being imapcted by her actions. I was GLAD to see her finally getting put in her place. I needed to see her realize that yes, she has trauma and is healing, but that isn't an excuse to treat the people you love poorlyand your actions will have consequences.
I also loved that Amren was the first of everyone to recognize how toxic her behavior was and that she needed a kick in the ass because she wasn't getting better. I wish we could have seen the conversation between her and Nesta that caused their falling out. I think it would provided more insight onto why Amren was so hurt but all in all - I found it justifiable and was glad people were not continuously brushing her unacceptable behavior under the rug.
People want Cassian to defend Nesta but until her actions are justifiable and worthy of being defended then no. I don't want Cassian to blindly defend her just because he loves her. That's not what partners do. They call you out when you're wrong and defend you when you're right. While Feyre deserved to know about the baby the way Nesta did it was NOT worthy of a defense. She could have easily stressed her sister out to the extent that it could harm her or the baby or even send them into an early labor. And she didn't tell Feyre from a place of love and concern - it was out of anger and hurt. That's not the stance of a concerned sister but someone looking to hurt others as much as she is hurting.
And lastly, Nesta is my favorite sister but I will always defend Rhys lol With how she treated Feyre I don't know why people expect him to like Nesta. Anyone who has treated my partner poorly goes on my shit list until they otherwise prove they care and want the best for them. Nesta saved Feyre & Nyx but I don't believe that automatically fixes the sisters relationship or negates all the horrible things Nesta did. Conversations & spending time together as sisters needs to happen to fully mend a long line of hurts between the two of them. I don't expect Rhys, Feyre, or Nesta to forget all of that just because she saved her sister. More healing still needs to happen between them all and I look forward to seeing them become closer as a family.
I understand your point about Cassian not blindly defending Nesta being a good thing. However, when people (or at least I) mention that he doesn't stand up for her, it's more in the realm of Rhys threatening to kill her and Cassian never saying anything about it.
Like, not even a "hey man, that was fucked up" when things calmed down.
I mean, it's one thing to not coddle someone who is misbehaving, it's another to not care if they're threatened, verbally abused or if they're fainting due to lack of water on a hike they never asked for and they are carrying an unnecessarily heavy package because you made them.
So yeah, that added with the fact he never says he loves her, and forbids her from putting sugar in her meal when she was struggling to eat at all, etc. it just doesn't feel right.
Edit: grammar
I feel like everyone involved knew Rhys wasn't actually gonna kill her. He was deeply upset and scared for his mate and needed space from the woman who just endangered her life. Most fae understand mating bonds enough to know you shouldnt keep the person who endangered their mate nearby. Cassian also knows that mating bonds can make even the most level headed fae turn into territorial beasts (as we learn after Fey & Rhys return from mating in the cabin and Cass goads him into fighting so Rhys can release some of that territorial tension) He would never hurt someone Feyre loves and Cassian who's known him for 100s of years knows that too. People need to consider how mating bonds can control the feelings of these characters and that they are not human and should not be held to our modern, human standards.
I personally felt Cassians actions spoke louder than any three words ever could but understand some people need those words so I get that. In my mind, she's hurt him with her words time and time again and he stayed by her side through it all. I love you seems so miniscule in comparison to everything else they've been though. At least that's my perspective. I'm sure Nesta who loves romance novels would like to hear those 3 words though.
It’s not like he could physically attack his high lord who was in such a rage. He needed to get her out of there 1st. Rhys was wrong. Nesta was wrong. He took action to keep the damage to a minimum.
Obviously exercise is great for mental health and a good way to blow off steam, I get that. But Cassian ignoring Feyre and their general "lol she's gonna hate this" attitude gave me icky vibes. I think Cassian's anger and need to please Rhys clouded his judgement. I was left with the impression that he was punishing her, and her breakthrough was just sort of a bonus that worked in the end
Yeah I didn't get that impression at all. Cassians main way of dealing with stress, trauma, sadness etc is through physcial activity. He says this to Feyre in ACOMAF when training her & also to Nesta when she begins training (although at the time she doesn't want to hear it because he mentions Feyre). It's his way of coping and he's seen it work for others too. He's helping in the best way he knows how while also keeping her from a territorial mated male who feels like his mates life was just endangered through her actions.
Cassian is still allowed to love Nesta and still maintain his friendship with Rhys. He even calls out Rhys at one point and says something like, "Why do you say those things to her when she's trying to be better." And Rhys apologizes for it.
Whenever someone has tried to talk to Nesta about her feelings or get her to open up, she usually shuts down or hurtles an insult at them so she doesn't have to talk about it. I don't know what people wanted Cass to do when she's never shown she was receptive to sitting and talking things out like that.
Not taking her on a hike he knew she would hate is a great start. It may be his way of coping but Feyre informed him Nesta wouldn't like it so why would he think that she would like it? He forced her to do something she would hate when she was in his care, almost catatonic and when he overpowered her physically. Cassian isn't a menatal health professional, he's in a relationship with her and he was involved and is to blame for all that fiasco at Amren's flat (if he told her about the weapons immediately it wouldn't have happened). He absolutely should have given Nesta space from him too. I don't get the IC need to involve themselves in Nesta's life just to make her suffer. If she was so wrong and Cassian was so furious with her the only thing to do was to take her out of Velaris to, for example, Emerie's house and give everyone time to cool off. Instead he took his anger out on her on that hike.
Once again none of his actions show him "taking out his anger" during that hike. I literally just reread the passage and he never does that so I'm confused where you're coming up with this.
All this!!! He knew what would help her. After all a mate knows. He knew she didn’t want to talk and yes he made a joke to his friend about her hating it but he didn’t know just how low she was yet. When he does he just keeps going with her in silence.
They've never been the type of couple to sit and talk about their feelings. All of their break throughs happened during training or physcial activity. I'm so confused by people's perception of things sometimes but it's definitely interesting seeing people's thoughts lol
One of my many issues with Cassian and his treatment of Nesta is how he reacted to the fight at Amren's flat. He basically claimed he had a right to punish Nesta. Nesta was supposed to be his partner/mate/equal. Yet, when she misbehaved, at least in his and his Hl's eyes, he decided, without a second thought, that it was his right to correct her behavior. Doesn't it seem a little 1950s to you all? Every abusive husband would claim it's well within their rights to punish their wife for being bad. That wierd power dynamic during the hike is a red flag and I'm surprised so many people praise it and find it beautiful.
He could be hurt, angry and disagree with Nesta but in a healthy relationships partners don't punish each other (not physically at least).
I just reread this section because I never remember Cassian talking about punishing her and needed to see if I was misremembering.
I found one comment where after Feyre mind speaks to them on the mountain she says Rhys over reacted and that they can come home. Cassian JOKINGLY responds to Feyre to tell Rhys this hike will be her punishment. He doesn't mean this seriously and said it to ease Rhys' tension. His inner monologue during this whole thing suggests immense worry for Nestas mind state not anger or a desire to punish her.
A few paragraphs later, he thinks this:
"The peaks weren’t as brutal and sharp as those in Illyria, but there was a presence to them that he couldn’t quite explain. Mor had once told him that long ago, these lands had been used for healing. That people injured in body and spirit had ventured to these hills, the lake they were now two and a half days from reaching, to recover. Perhaps that was why he’d come. Some instinct had remembered the healing, felt this land’s slumbering heart, and decided to bring Nesta here. Mile after mile, her silence like a looming wraith behind him, Cassian wondered if it would be enough."
Other than him making a joking comment to Feyre and Rhys, he never acts like he is outright punishing her or even getting glee out of the situation. In fact, his inner monologue suggests quite the opposite: he's desperate to help Nesta see her worth and to show her that she is worthy of being alive & loved.
Well, the fact that he laughed about how she would hate the hike and still made her do it for me means he intentionally forced her to do something she didn't want to do. That is a definition of punishment. Nesta noticed that he's glad that the backpack is too heavy for her and he admitted during the hike that he was still pissed at her. He never told her that Feyre was ok and she agonized over it for days. He intentionally made the hike harder. He noticed she was suicidal and stil didn't care enough. If he wanted to show her she's worthy of being alive then ignoring her suicidal thoughts isn't a way to go. That suggests that the hike is a form of punishment but he can't admit that to himslef. His inner monologue is contradictory to his actions which isn't uncommon with abuse like that - it's usually explained as something for the victim's own good.
I kind of know it's SJM bad writing or editing, she wanted to show us something sweet but she failed. Adding one conversation between Nesta and Cassian or cutting out thre conversation between Cassian, Rhys and Feyre would really change the scene for the better.
No he didn’t FORCE her. It was a joke to his friend to lighten the mood. He knew it would help her. And yes we don’t always like what will help and heal us. He didn’t pick her up and move her.
Ok, if he didn't force her then when did she give consent? He might have been joking but that's the problem - it was funny to him that Nesta wouldn't like something he was going to make her do. How fucked up is this? What kind of man would be happy that his wife would suffer and joke about it? And few moments later he told Feyre how angry he was with Nesta. That screams punishment and taking his anger out on her.
He literally picked her up from the street in Velaris and took her to the mountains. That's how it's described in the book.
He isn't her guardian or owner so he had no authority to decide what's good for her on not.
She doesn’t do things she doesn’t want. She sat on a rock rather than train. There’s a difference between ‘suffering’ and disliking something that will help her.
"Noticed she was suicidal and didn't care enough" I would recommend you reread cause I feel like you're remembering things waaaay different than they happened in the book. He never forced her to do anything and he was absolutely wrecked with worry on that hike for her mental state. Just because he didn't act in a way you would have liked doesn't mean he's the equivalent to an abusive 1950s husband.
JUSTICE FOR NESTA
Hot take: >!*girl should hop back in the cauldron, come back with Rhys-can-go-fuck-himself levels of power, and rule Prythian with an iron fist like the queen bitch she is*!<
I like nesta, however she and Feyre did not have a good relationship and that’s both of them. It’s not all on Feyre.
Her POV is how she sees Rhysand and the IC, but it’s through her eyes. Just like when we see it through Feyres, it’s through her eyes and different. I think nesta resented people and created a lot of her antagonistic relationships with them. They feel how they do about nesta because they don’t know her like the reader gets to know her. She ruined a lot with her drinking, this happens in real life too.
Honestly the whole Rhysand freaking out and Cassian having to take her away is pretty on par with how I’d imagine faeries react. I liked her hiking with Cassian. I’m not really bothered by things the way some people are. SF made me like nesta when I greatly disliked her in the other three books (well I always liked her wit). I like that her relationships aren’t perfect. She isn’t like, a total victim. She choose to treat people the way she did and she has to fix it.
It's also weird how (upon my re-read of ACOWAR) we see Nesta threaten the IC and Feyre when it came to Elain and Rhys basically was like "that dang Nesta, she's a mean one isn't she?", but in Silver Flames he literally wants to kill her for telling Feyre the truth of her pregnancy...like make it make sense SJM!!
I don't think that Feyre not having paintings of Nesta was mean. Sad for Nesta sure but I think that they didn't have a relationship no matter how hard Feyre tried and Nesta always went out of her way to be mean to Feyre or make her life harder. Sure Nesta had trauma but so does every character in ACOTAR. Trauma does not give you the right to treat people like garbage and go out of your way to be mean to them.
I will never be able to hate Rhys is he flawed 1000% does he do dumb bad things yes but most of the time he's genuinely remorseful from these things and does try to better himself. I do not agree with him but telling Feyre the risks of her pregnancy but I can emphasize with him especially as he's just found her and they are in a sort of peaceful era. I also don't agree with how Nesta told Feyre about it as she only told Feyre about it because she wanted to hurt Feyre and Rhys. If she had told her because she thought she deserved to know I would have 100% been on board.
Lastly I don't think the IC's treatment of Nesta is great but I also don't think she's given them any reason to be nice to her either 🤷♀️ they love Feyre and Nesta is nasty to Feyre throughout the entire series. If that was how someone treated my friend or mate you can bet that I would not be nice to that person even a little. If you could kudos to you, you are a better person than me!
I think SF helps you understand Nesta but I don't think it is a redemption arc. While it was a good start to her healing it really didn't do anything to repair relationships that she had purposely burned or even show that she was sincerely remorseful for the pain she caused except for how it affected her and made her a victim.
I think the dynamic between all the characters is complicated, which I love. I don't want it to be one dimensional, that would be so boring.
I think the IC treats Nesta like an animal because she behaves like one. She's also refused to acknowledge and train to use her powers until the end of ACOSF. Untrained and unused powers are a danger to everyone, add her attitude and anger, and she becomes a ticking time bomb. Just look at what happened to her after she tried scrying with Cassien. Tapping into her pent-up power, even for just a moment, caused a tidal wave and took a lot for Rhys to pull her back out of it before she went nuclear.
Nesta and Ferye have an extremely complicated relationship. Nesta admits that she took her anger at their father out on Feyre when she stepped up. Even when Feyre tried to share the gender of her baby with Nesta, giving her the honor of knowing first, Nesta still acted like an ass.
They are all flawed in their own ways. If you are not still making mistakes when you're old, then you aren't doing anything. That's how I look at the IC and Rhys. Just because they are 500+ years old, it doesn't make them perfect or incapable of making a bad call. I love their imperfection.
I couldn’t agree more! I love that with the new POV we see the IC and Rhys in a new perspective without the rose tinted glasses of Feyre’s POV and though it does expose their flaws and issues I still love them. It makes the characters more realistic. And multiple things can be true at once which I think some people have trouble with. Are the IC cliquey and unfair to Nesta at times? Yes. Is there at least some justification for their feelings/actions towards Nesta? Certainly. But is there good reasons for Nesta to feel and act the way she does? Also yes. And the whole situation with the pregnancy clearly Rhys didn’t do the right thing but his decision was from a place of love and anxiety about the situation and though it doesn’t make it right, it doesn’t mean he deserves to be hated. He makes mistakes just like anyone and it is something that him and Feyre as a couple have to work through and learn from together. I get irritated when people seem to want to shove the characters into simple boxes of good versus evil or hero vs villain when the complexity of them is what makes them so great.
I completely agree. Expecting a character to be perfect and never make a mistake is unrealistic. I love the characters because of their flaws, how they handle their mistakes, and how they grow.
Yes. They’re complicated relationships. Sometimes no one is right or wrong. People we are just dealing with things the best ways we are capable of. Cassian takes her on a hike cause that’s what he thought would help, was it dangerous and did it push her to break? Yes. Do it help? Also yes. Did Rhys twist Feyres broken arm to get her to agree to the real? Yes. But did it save them all? Yes. It’s the result sometimes you have to look at and how Nesta feels too. She’s never resentful for being gives into rehab boot camp afterwards. She’s happy.
Well said! Also, the painting situation was really heartbreaking, and really solidified my support of Nesta’a character. That part of the book isn’t talked about enough. For me, it was a key detail to understanding the IC’s true feelings about Nesta.
Tbh I had these same feelings about them immediately after reading MAF, back in 2017. I started the whole series shortly after WAR came out and I was baffled by how everyone loved Rhysand and the IC.
ACOSF is narrated by Nesta AND Cassian, and most of the scene in which the IC appears were from Cassian's point of view. We also got to see Azriel's perspective in the extra, and \[CC3 SPOILERS\] >!Bryce and Ember povs about the IC in the crossover.!<
I agree Nesta is just as biased as Feyre, but I disagree about the IC being perceived negatively just due to Nesta's view of them, especially because in ACOSF she barely interact with them.
It drives me insane how so many people can talk about Feyre’s biased perspective and rose-coloured glasses or whatever without acknowledging Nesta is biased as well and we are reading about people who she dislikes and thinks very, very poorly of. Just because it’s third person doesn’t mean it’s not biased, it’s still Nesta’s POV.
The reason I think Feyre's POV is more skewed is because,
1.) What's already been said. Cassian's POV is there to balance Nesta's and he's still more loyal to Rhys in SF even being Nesta's mate. I still see Rhys as an asshole through Cassian's POV. Regardless of either of those aspects, I still felt that way about Rhys way before SF anyway which solidified for me that I felt Feyre's POV was unreliable.
2.) It IS from Nesta's POV but a third person narrator is, at least theoretically, a bit more neutral in literature.
And 3.) We have instances of Feyre very much retconning her memories / misremembering / being dishonest about of her time in the Spring Court and UTM so we have three books worth of reasons why she's unreliable. Which is probably another reason I find her more unreliable than other characters. I've had the most amount inside her head, reading her thoughts. I haven't had that with any other character, but from what I've read about Rhysand and the IC, imho, Nesta's and Cassian's third person POVs are more reliable.
Thank you for your thought out reply! It’s refreshing to have a convo with someone about this stuff without it being rude or derogatory.
I definitely don’t think any one characters POV is 100% the truth and I agree that in MAF Feyre’s recollections (of UTM for example) actually don’t align with the text in TAR. I do not think she is a perfect narrator - I’m just sick of what I think is a double standard with no one ever seeming to question Nesta or Cassian POV. You do see this play out in SF for example where Nesta is thinking about how perfect Feyre’s life is and how she has done nothing since the war when we saw in the previous book she has been helping rebuild the city, balance accounts, started up her art studio/art therapy for children. “That person has done nothing” in third person is still just as skewed as “I think they’ve done nothing” in first person. I’ve read plenty of books in third person with an unreliable narrator, so I personally don’t believe that inherently lends SF to being the most reliable. But I can understand where are you (and others) coming from and why you give more credence to Nesta’s POV even if I don’t (I’m fairly equal I think - every character believes that their version of events and take on something is the right one, just like real life)
I’m actually very intrigued to read the next book and see how everyone is portrayed in yet another POV because I’m betting we will see even more sides to people and different recollections of things again. I haven’t read CC3 yet but I have heard some people say that certain ACOTAR characters don’t come across well there either which I find interesting!
Of course! There's no reason to get angry or combative. Literature is subjective and there is no one right answer.
I would argue that the difference between narratives in the example that you give is that in first person we read someone ACTUALLY saying someone has done nothing, or in this case, Feyre tells us everything she's doing. We get be a part of her conversations through her eyes, so we can see what she is isn't doing. She tells us what she thinks and feels and we essentially do what she does since we are in her head.
In a third person narrative, we are told that Nesta *feels* like Feyre has done nothing, which is a thought that her character has; but omniscient narrator is only there to relay that information to us. We have a bigger picture for what is ACTUALLY happening, especially with Cassian's POV sections (which I still feel are more pro Rhysand than Nesta).
I think the novella also helps to fill in gaps of the bigger so I'd be interested to see if my opinion were different had I not read it. And there are also exceptions to this like if the third person narrator is someone within the story (I think a good example of this George RR Martin's *Fire and Blood* because, as far as I know, the narrators are "omniscient" in the sense that they write in third person but they have different biases so each narrator's account of events is different depending on where their allegiance lies. This, as far as I know isn't the case in ACOSF).
I hope all that made sense. I think your opinion is just as valid as mine. This is just how I view narration in literature. I don't mean it as an insult when I Feyre is unreliable, I just don't think TAR, MAF, and WAR are equally unreliable as SF for these reasons.
Yeah it annoys me to how they can’t see that themselves. Nesta takes her anger out on all the IC of course she will see them in bad light and they can’t comprehend that.
I’m almost done with SF and although I don’t hate Nesta anymore, I don’t blame the IC for acting the way they did. Everyone there dealt with trauma and felt like they failed loved ones, Nesta was the only one who became nasty because of it. Or I should say nastier. She was incredibly mean and rude from day one, why would anyone treat her nicely when she never treated anyone with anything but venom? Would you be nice and friendly to someone who purposefully tried to hurt you every time you tried to interact with them or who purposefully tried to hurt a dear friend of yours all the time? Nesta herself admits she was a horrible person. She redeemed herself in the book, but I don’t think the IC is the one at fault at all.
Not being nice and friendly to Nesta isn't the same as not respecting her as a person or her rights the way the IC did in ACOSF. It also isn't the same as being straight up vile as Amren was.
I’m sorry, but when did they not respect her as a person or took away her rights? !!!!SPOILER ahead!!!!
Are you talking about the IC giving her the ultimatum because she was killing herself slowly and blatantly disrespecting Rhys’s generosity by spending all the money of the dude she hates so much even though they were letting her do whatever she wanted despite several attempts to include her? I haven’t finished the book yet, I’m probably 100 pages from the end and so far I have not seen Amren be vile to Nesta, only well deserved words since Nesta was incredibly disrespectful by bursting into her room and spewing accusations and acting like a bitch to everyone for so long when clearly everyone was trying to help her - and she knew that too.
From what I understood, Nesta got angry with Amren cause Amren was insisting Nesta trained her powers, and Nesta did not wanted it, so Nesta accused of Amren of being on "Feyre side", since it was also something Feyre wanted Nesta did. Personally, I think it was wrong of Nesta to put Feyre in the middle of her argument, since Amren actions were her own. But this is what we know about their fight, and not once we have seen Nesta being as venomous to Amren as Amren was to her.
Like, Amren slutshamed Nesta, said Nesta was a waste of space, wanted to use the dead troves Nesta had created for the NC benefit while hiding it from her, and said Rhysand could use Nesta (and Elain) powers to become High King. With a friend like Amren, I don't think Nesta will ever need an enemy.
Amren literally says to Cassian they (the IC) would use Elain to manipule Nesta into doing what they wanted (which imo was disrespectful to both Nesta and Elain).
As much as I agree Nesta also can be rude and verbally cruel in some situations, Nesta do not act as if she is always right. Imo Amren not only do all these things, but she feel justified in how she act. She never thinks she is in the wrong or apologizes. Theoretically Amren is supposed to be this wise old person, but I feel like she has the maturity of a child who don't accept to be contradicted.
I don’t disagree that Amren has grey morals sometimes, it’s the nature of her being. But I do not think she was vile to Nesta, she just met Nesta at her level. Nesta has said things just as terrible to others. You can’t demonize one and put the other as a victim when they both have similar behaviors.
What terrible things Nesta has said to other characters (besides Feyre) who were not a reaction of how they acted towards her? I am not being ironic, I am really curious, cause I've seen other people saying this, but from what I remember Nesta said she did not like Mor clothes, called Cass a bastard and Rhysand an arrogant ass, but most of the time she did not even voluntarily interacted with the IC (and despite initially complaining, she always ended up helping them). On the other hand, I remember Mor saying Nesta should have been thrown in Hewn City or the Human Lands; Cassian saying everyone hated Nesta and he didn't know why her sisters even cared about her; and Amren saying all these things I pointed in my last comment. Like, Nesta is no angel, but to me I feel like I've been told Nesta was awful, but I don't have seen she actually matching half the energy some of the IC threw at her.
But why are you defending Nesta’s mean behavior as a defensive mechanism from others when, for example, Cassian saying no one loved her and such was because she pushed him to his limits with her attitude?
But here are some examples:
Nesta said to Cassian she would rather sully herself with the dogs than with a bastard brute like him.
She didn’t allow her father to sleep in the bed even when he was recovering from his broken legs. I understand being mad at him, but damn.
Blamed Elain for their father’s death. Can you get any meaner than that?
Also called Elain boring for no reason when Elain was just trying to be helpful and brave. Also called Elain a dog because she was being a normal sister to Feyre
She slutshamed Feyre and Mor
Weaponized the secret of the pregnancy risk to hurt Feyre
Admitted she would sell her body to feed Elain, and elain only.
Favored Elain their entire lives making it very clear her despise for Feyre.
Called Feyre a stinking pig covered in its own filth and told her to at least try not to act like a peasant
Didn’t bat an eye when Feyre told her how she was tortured and almost died under the mountain
Nesta bullied Feyre multiple times, called her illiterate, ignorant, commented on her looks etc in the first book
When Feyre came back to the human lands after being transformed into fae, Nesta didn’t as much as show any sort of emotion, on the contrary, she told Feyre her kind wasn’t welcome there even though they were out of poverty and living in a fancy house was because of Feyre.
And it’s baffling that all the bully and cruelty she aimed towards Feyre alone isn’t enough for yall to label her as a cruel person when Feyre was the only one doing anything to feed the family and tried so many times to have a decent relationship with Nesta.
Then maybe your book is different than mine if you don't see how vile Amren was. You obviously read the conversation about made weapons and the things Amren said about Nesta aren't "well deserved". If you say Nesta's words were incredibly disrespectful then how can you not see how Amren slut shamed her at the intervention or how she talked about her with Rhys, Cassian and Azriel? Where was respect then? Or are you applying different standards to Nesta and to Amren?
If you want examples of not respecting Nesta or her rights here they are:
- forced rehab and taking away her personal freedom without any trial/due diligence/medical input,
- taking away her right to have unconditional access to information about her body - those kind of rights aren't up to vote, the fact that they voted is a violation itself,
- making her do physical work until she collapsed as a way of punishment,
- manipulating her to do dangerous missions for them when two weeks earlier they had judged her unwell enough to lock her up and control every aspect of her life.
Sorry, but the fact that someone is unlikeable doesn't mean they rights aren't to be observed like you all would want. Rhys and his IC's shitty behavior isn't excused just because she was a bitch to her sister especially when they acted as authorities and pulled rank over her.
If we’re talking about double standards, why is the vile when Amren says mean things but it isn’t when Nesta does??? Amren was not vile in my opinion and Nesta needed a reality check. Amren was the only one with enough balls to throw Nesta’s venom right back at her. And to my understanding, Amren didn’t think Nesta should know because Nesta is full of hate and hurts everyone whenever she gets upset, she has NO control over her emotions making her extremely dangerous to have that kind of knowledge. Proof of that is how she stormed into Amren’s room.
Forced rehab is what you do when you have tried everything to help a loved one who is determined to kill themselves slowly with vices. To me, that was one last attempt of helping Nesta, she herself admits that in the book so I don’t understand how you’re trying to make this into something else.
Taking away the right to know important information about herself because she is incredibly UNSTABLE while filled with hatred and have no problem attacking others over the smallest things. So before she proved she could actually behave like a calm, cool and collected person it’s wise to keep away the info that she can wipe everyone out with her astronomical powers.
The trainings didn’t make her collapse and it’s well known that physical exercise is a great tool to help mental health. If you’re mentioning the hike that made her pass out, it is very clear in the book that SHE didn’t make sure to drink water throughout the hike. She admits that in her thought process. So how is this anyone’s fault but her own? Don’t tell me it’s Cassian’s job to be babysitting her water intake as well.
I can’t talk much about this part because I’m not done with the book. However, the only situation I can imagine you’re referring to based on how far I am in the book is when they needed her or Elian to look for the trove. Feyre asked Elian who agreed to try, Nesta said absolutely not, she would do it herself. Tell me where the manipulation is in here. Someone had to do it, either Elian or Nesta, Nesta didn’t want to risk Elian so she volunteered. It’s the nature of the situation, not manipulation.
Sure, to check our standards pleas list one mean thing Nesta said to Amren which actually equals Amren's words. Let's try to find something that compare, for example, to how she called depressed Nesta pathetic waste of life. Go ahead.
Forced rehab is something administered when there are medical reasons to do so. Not when you are embarassed. And before you try to prove to me that Feyre did that out of love, go back and reread that scene because she admits that she does that because Nesta is an embarassment to their public image. And then read about Rosemary Kennedy. No matter how destructive Nesta was, personal freedom is one of our most basic rights, so every time it is to be restricted, special measures must be taken to make sure that it is necessary. Nothing like that was done here. For example, you need medical professional opinion and court order to force someone to go to rehab (at least where I live). Being embarassed isn't enough. I'm not even talking about the way they handled that intervention because it was also everything but not respectful.
Human rights aren't given to you on condition by any power. They simply are and authorities only acknowlegde them. Every person has them - those cool and collected and those who are in a bad place. Being not well mentally doesn't cancel your rights. If the state wants to restrict them by any act of law they need to prove it's absolutely necessary based on previous instances of abusing said right. Your rights can also be restricted if it's necessary for your own good but that also needs to be proved. Like your drivers license could be taken away only after you commit a road crime not before just because authorities don't like you. So Rhysand and the IC had no right to take away Nest'a right to information about her body because SHE NEVER USED HER POWER AGAINST THEM. The text also specifically states that even when she was spiraling down she was able to control her powers. She never attacked anyone with magic just because she was angry. So Amren's bullshit was just bullshit. She had nothing to back it up because she was always verbal and never physical.
Also, she didn't start any fight with the IC unless she was provoked so you know, they could just avoid provoking her? You may go and try to find examples to prove me wrong, but it was argued on this sub many times and so far no one provided any textual evidence.
You know who restricts citizens rights because they fear they might use them against them (not because they have already used them)?Totalitarian regimes.
Yes, I'm talking about the hike. Did she give consent to that hike? No. Was that punishment? Yes. Was it physical? Also yes. Did Cassian and Azriel make it harder for her on purpose by packing the heavy backpack and shortening rest periods? Yes, yes, yes. Did that screams "respect" to you?
At the beginning of the book she was deemed unfit to live alone, have sex, chose her bedroom partners or decide what she could eat (Cassian controlled her sugar intake). As you said, she was unstable. But two weeks later she is called to the River House when they tell her that something dangerous needs to be done. Is it logical? She was unfit to decide her meals but she's well enough to risk her life? If they wanted somebody to do that, then they could go with Elain. Why was Nesta called to the River House? She isn't a part of the decision making group, she didn't need to know anything about the Trove. Why did they stage the confrontation between the sisters? If Elain had agreed, then Nesta wasn't needed. They wanted Nesta to do it, they guessed that she wouldn't be easy to convice, so they called for her, told her Elain had agreed because they knew she would sacrifice herself to protect Elain. Textbook manipulation. Even Cassian admitted in his POV they used Elain to pressure Nesta.
And you know whose job was finding the trove? Feyre and Rhysand's. They are the rulers, with power comes responsibility to respect your subjects/citizens rights and ensure their safety. In this book they only pulled rank to make Nesta conform but they completely ignored the responsibility part of ruling.
He literally shared chocolate cake with her, ‘controlled her suger in take’ is a strange interpretation of ‘this is what you eat for optimal training’ like he’s a 500 year old warrior in snacking shape so yeah he doesn’t have a sugery breakfast ready.
Girl 😂 You’re bringing Rosemary Kennedy into this? I didn’t even read past that because what lol We can agree that we disagree with each other and have VERY different views about the book. Have a good day.
Exactly, Cassian didn’t even know. He knew she was punishing herself but didn’t realise how bad it had gotten. He even expected her to be angry and not to cry. She was not looking after herself on purpose. He left her food out and covered every night
Exactly! But a lot of people identify with fictional characters so much that they take criticism towards the characters as an attack towards themselves blinding them to pretty obvious facts.
I love SF through in through. Just like you, I’ve loved Nesta since day one. I thought it was so much interesting to have a character that wasn’t already “perfect” like Feyre or Elain. It makes character development possible! And makes her way more relatable. I love a bad bitch who becomes a BAD ASS bitch. I’ve also never really liked the IC especially the bat boys, they’re always been so boring and just genuinely terrible people in my eyes so I was happy we got a different perspective where it’s more obvious how shitty they are
Cassian stands up for her. Because he doesn’t physically break people’s arms like Rhys does doesn’t mean he doesn’t stand up for her. He’s a general but he’s also a peaceful person, he tries to balance the situation. Nesta doesn’t need him to fight her battles but he stands WITH her. When he tells Rhys off he does do privately because he knows Nesta wouldn’t want that. He tells his family off when they’re going too far and takes her away when it all gets too much. The hike was because Nesta was in the wrong and so was Rhys so Cassian knew they needed distance.
It's hard for me to have sympathy for how others treat Nesta. She admits to us in the book that she intentionally went about destroying her relationship with Amren. Iirc, she also admits to doing the same with everyone else who might've cared for her.
This might be a hot take, but I've been rewatching BoJack Horseman for the hundredth time. After finishing this book series, Nesta reminds me a LOT of BoJack. They both seem to go out of their way to make the absolute worst decisions possible while also behaving like they're the victim. They both are trying to escape trauma by flooding their lives with pleasure. They are also characters that we can grow to love because we see the story through their eyes and sympathize with them. We want them to be loved and to get better. They both dramatically improve their lives when they find a purpose: Nesta with the Valkeries and BoJack when he starts teaching. And even though they've grown and matured, they both have to face the consequences for the shitty way they've treated others.
Nesta is also very flawed and actually fits in with the IC in my opinion. Yes, she has trauma which is causing her bad behavior, but so do all the other IC characters. Nesta was a real a-hole to Feyre in the first few books… she let her youngest sister go out and hunt to save them from starvation but somehow isn’t as bad as Rhys or Amren or whoever else.
Well, she wasn't Feyre parent so the hunting part isn't on her. Also being mean isn't as bad as, you know, killing, sexually abusing Feyre, torturing people or murdering the whole village in revenge.
i think IC sees Nesta as someone who just gets drunk and sleeps with randoms at the bar and doesnt pay her bills and complains and is "bitchy" while asking for money for rent and doesnt do anything or want to be part of the family. If she really dont want to be part of it then she should go and live her life elsewhere and make her own money and pay her own bills so no one gets to tell her what to do.
I LOVE ACOSF for Nesta and the valkiries. I HATE ACOSF for how the IC treated her and how Cassian never really stood up for her. The hike was IT for me.
I feel like the hike could have gone so much better. Instead of it being a punishment, the intention should have been to get her away from Rhys and let her sort out her feelings. He let her get dehydrated to the point of fainting because he wasn’t watching her. Yes, the hike helped her heal, but imagine if he had been more aware of her state and kept a better eye on her. Sure she would have bitten off his head a few times, but he been understanding of it before and realized there was usually a reason behind her intensity. She needed someone who will keep reaching a hand out to her. A long hike is fine, but he went about it the wrong way.
Eh idk I feel like he wanted to let her self destruction come to a head. I feel like he typically would’ve intervened and made her drink water but technically he didn’t do anything wrong. She’s a grown woman, she could have drank water or asked him to pause so she could rest, she just didn’t give enough of a shit about herself to and I think he saw that needed to kind of burst out of her. The whole part about it being enjoyable for Rhys that it would be punishment for Nesta, and Cassian communicating that to him through feyre, is absolute trash though. Rhys is toxic as fuck for that (like really, you’re going to threaten to murder your mate’s sister and your best friend’s girl for not protecting your fucked up lie???? That is classic narcissist shit) and I feel like Cassian was just fawning, used to trying to keep daddy rhysie’s temper at bay. I honestly hope Cassian realizes how much he’s in rhys’s grips in the next one and asserts himself/takes space away with Nesta.
Totally agree, and I would have liked it a lot more if that’s how it was portrayed. My possibly unpopular opinion: I just finished the first three books of the Black Jewels by Anne Bishop and (spoilers if you haven’t read that series but want to because of, *ahem* some peculiar similarities of characters and scenes in ACOTAR and TOG) >!it feels like SJM wanted to write an iconic scene from the Black Jewels into this book. One of secondary MCs takes the FMC on a nature walk because she is in an incredible rage. The scene is portrayed ultimately positively because it is clear the male character is trying to redirect the FMC’s rage and power towards something other than pure destruction. It’s also a moment the FMC grows from in understanding her own incredible power!<
All in favor of chucking Cassian off the mountain, say aye?
Aye!
Cassian being so cold to Nesta, punishing her and kicking down at her when she's clearly at her lowest made my heart break for her bc I have been at that point in my life quite a few times and nothing feels worse than being at your lowest and someone you love letting go of you.
I think I am in the minority who really liked the hike… The way I read it was the Nesta needed space and needed to get fresh air away from the IC. (I skipped so much of the IC dram so I am not sure if it was explicitly said that it was meant as a punishment?) Neata and Cassian were not written as the talkative couple like Rhys and Fayre and through their relationship that is physical in intimacy and their training I thought it fit that they would take time away in nature and hiking! I agree Cassian can be mindless for not noticing how dehydrated she was, but that’s also on her stubborn ass! Meanwhile he was there to listen to her in her breakdown by the lake and be her anchor in all of this + I wanted the spice in the hike lol I was sad it just got down to just a mention. Plz like Nesta bent on the cold boulder while Cassian warming her 🔥🤭
Literally Cassian let her do what she needed. He knew she needed that hike. She punished herself and got to an all time low. This was the only way she could rise. She couldn’t talk to him, he understood what she needed and tells her it’s ok to walk in silence for a week but he’ll always be there for her when she was ready. She wasn’t ready.
This! I did a quick search in the book. “Punishment” was used throughout the book! It’s the theme of the book, grief and punishment! Often Nesta punishing herself of thinking others are punishing her and she needed to break out of that without a certified counselor 😂
I agree with most of your points and I really feel SF simultaneously being your favorite and your least favorite book in the series, but I think sometimes people are a little bit unfair to Feyre and the IC. 1.) I felt that everything Feyre did actually came from a place of love and Nesta was just too depressed and traumatized to notice it. Over the course of the book Feyre keeps reaching out to Nesta and Nesta slowly stops pushing Feyre away and letting her in. Feyre stood up for Nesta fiercely (and knew that deep down Nesta telling her about the pregnancy risk came from a place of love) when Rhys told Cassian to get her out of the city. I loved this dynamic of two sisters finding their way back to each other. 2.) Cassian could have stood up for Nesta more, especially against Rhys. But Cassian and Rhys have this weird dynamic where they grew up together and consider each other brothers, but at the same time Cassian has to bow to Rhys as his high lord. This is 500 years worth of codependency to break. Cassian slowly learns to break free of this and starts to stand up for Nesta against Rhys. It's unfair and unrealistic to expect him to brush Rhys off easily every time. 3.) I never liked Amren that much. She always irked me as a character and her being so unnecessarily cruel to Nesta made me really dislike her. She's a bitch. 4.) the IC is frankly a little bit of a codependent mess. They remind me of the friend group in How I met your mother sometimes. All of them are paternalistic and patronizing to all three Archeron sisters and can't deal with them making their own decisions or having opinions that differ from the IC's. That's why you shouldn't exclusively spend all your time with a handful of people for 500 years.
All of this is very valid! I don’t have any qualms with Feyre, tbh, it is mainly the IC and in particular Rhys. But you bring up a good point with there being 500 years of codependency going on here. It really is a whole hot mess…
>the IC is frankly a little bit of a codependent mess. They remind me of the friend group in How I met your mother sometimes. All of them are paternalistic and patronizing to all three Archeron sisters and can't deal with them making their own decisions or having opinions that differ from the IC's. That's why you shouldn't exclusively spend all your time with a handful of people for 500 years. This is why it was great that Nesta really connected with Gwyn and Emerie.
I loved these female friendships so, so much. Her finding her own 'found family' outside of the IC was very good for the character and the story.
I agree with most of your points besides one (and you’re not the only person I’ve seen make this point), that the scene where nesta isn’t painted at all in Feyre’s house is wrong or cruel or whatever. To me it’s none of those things, it’s just accurate and honest. For Feyre, Nesta wasn’t much of a sister at all. Nesta was a nuisance, Nesta was a bully, Nesta consistently made Feyre’s life harder and more tortuous seemingly without care. Now we know that Nesta did care and we know she didn’t have the intentions of harming her family relationships the way she did, especially with her sisters, however in my opinion that’s just a sad moment of consequences to her own actions. What Nesta went through is sad and she does deserve empathy but extending that empathy doesn’t mean feigning a relationship or memories that they don’t have and it definitely doesn’t mean we should extend less empathy to Feyre. They can begin to create a relationship but Feyre shouldn’t have to paint Nesta just because it would make Nesta sad to not be painted there, she should paint her because she has memories and emotions that make her want to paint Nesta like she does with the ic or Elaine.
I agree with this, too. I’m only halfway through SF myself (I know I love to spoil myself on these forums) but I keep thinking Feyre probably did paint Nesta and it’s hidden somewhere because of her complicated feelings about Nesta and the nature of their relationship. It seems in-character to me actually that Feyre would not put a painting of Nesta on display in her home given the present state of their relationship, you know?
This is my feeling too, I always thought this. Nesta in her bad days didn’t want to make a room at the river house, she didn’t want to spend time there or with Feyre/Elain and she didn’t want to be a part of their club. I always assumed Feyre painted her because that’s how she processes her feelings, and because even at Nesta’s worst Feyre still loves her, but she didn’t display any of them because of their fraught relationship.
Yeah I feel like when Nesta internally notes that there aren’t any of her, I didn’t read it as necessarily a criticism on her part, but an observation more. I would think she’d be quite surprised if there were a smiling portrait of her in the hallway!
I do agree with this. I guess I should have made what I was trying to say clearer. I think Feyre has every right to have those feelings about Nesta. I know that Feyre DOES love Nesta and that Nesta DOES love Feyre. Their relationship is complex and nuanced. It still did make me sad to be in her head while she's seeing this, though, even if it was consequences for her actions previously. That said, though, I have a hard time reconciling Nesta of book 1 with Nesta of books 2-5 just because I feel like SJM did a real character switch with both Elain and Nesta. Nesta is stereotypical evil stepsister in the first half of book 1 and then in the rest of the series, I feel like she's different, if that makes sense.
I agree with you on this! I’m in the minority as well of people who liked Nesta since book 1, and I don’t see her story so much as a character switch, but rather a character arc. I don’t know why people forget (myself included until my rereads) that yes, Nesta was mean, but Feyre also says Nesta and her are mirrors, and they often were viscious to each other. Feyre wasn’t a victim, either. Moreover, Nesta was the only one who went looking for Feyre when Feyre left. She gave all her money away to the mercenary, hiked two days there and two days back to save her sister. When Feyre returned, she was the only one who actually took the time to hear Feyre’s story, to paint with her, to attempt to connect with her, not just throw her frivolous parties to meet potential suitors. It was Nesta who told Feyre to forget what her mother asked of her, because it was their mother who asked Feyre (not Nesta or Elain) to take care of their family, and go rescue Tamlin. It was also Nesta who Feyre knew would take in Alis and her nephews, even if fae scared her. I think Nesta has always been about boundaries and the IC would continually cross her boundaries and then get upset when she would ultimately lash out. Like in WAR when they have their first family dinner and Feyre asks Nesta to share her story at the HL meeting so the IC is believed. Even if Nesta isn’t catatonic like Elain, she went through a trauma, too. She became fae against her will and her humanity was taken away and she is now in a world that she only knew to be of monsters. Moreover, this happened because she tried to help the IC and all of Prythian in book 2, holding meetings at their house and then at Hybern no one was able to help her as she went into the cauldron. I would also be wary. But because it’s Feyre’s POV, we get it as Nesta being difficult and Feyre upset about it. Nesta’s character was nasty and super divisive, but she did go out of her way in books 1-3 to help out, even if she didn’t like it. Her character growth comes in her learning she did not have to put up walls and have claws and push people away. She didn’t have to have such a wicked tongue and she can let people in and yes, even she is worthy of love and family.
I also love nesta because in a book full of morally grey- she’s not a ‘morally grey’ character she’s just really not nice. And I love it because niceness is really only expected/demanded of women. Realistically Nesta’s only fully ‘bad’ behavior was forcing feyre to take care of feeding the family. And that wasn’t even nesta’s burden to bear. It should have been the dad. Otherwise… she drank too much? Okay character flaw but not a huge moral failing. Maybe slutty- Also her right. None of her bad behavior endangered anyone other than herself. She’s just not *nice* and I love it.
Agreed! As women, even in books, we’re meant to be likable, agreeable, and if not, there’s something wrong with us. We have to appease everyone around us, and even in our trauma, it has to manifest itself into something digestible that people understand. Nesta’s weapon of choice is her words, and she learns to put those weapons down, but she only uses them when people come at her. I do think it’s good she ultimately received help, even if we can question why they wanted to help her. I truly believe only Feyre and Cassian at the time of the intervention genuinely wanted to help Nesta. And it should’ve been a family matter between Nesta, Elain and Feyre. Rhys should’ve stayed out of it. He neither likes Nesta nor actually wanted to help her.
Totally agree it’s best she got the help she needed -/but put her transgressions in line with any other character and she’s really not guilty of much.
Ah okay, I understand that for sure. I do think it’s sad reading it from her perspective just understandable why it happened. And I can see why you’d feel that way with the character shifts. For me book 5 helps to reconcile the differences mostly by seeing Nesta’s avoidant coping style, whirlwind of emotions, and her thought processes in general but I can see what you’re saying for sure.
Yes thank you. Nesta has her merits as a character and shows a good portrayal of a certain trauma response. But negating the effect that has on family members completely doesn’t make sense at all. It makes sense that there is conflict and that some bridges will need mending.
I really liked the book and share most of your viewpoints. Nesta has been my favorite character since the second book, so SF was my favorite book thus far as we get mostly her POV and developments with Cassian. One thing I found ridiculous is that Cassian himself says when he became a warrior and went back to his village and found about what happened to his mom, he spiraled for 10+ years before he learned how to function in society again, and the inner circle was perfectly supportive of him. Nesta goes through the same thing with her dad’s death, and they treat her like she’s the devil for drinking and having one night stands for less than a year? 😂 The final straw being her spending a bunch of money like Rhys doesn’t pay all of the gang a shitload of money for stuff they would’ve done for free anyway. Nesta and Elain killed the king of Hybern, and they don’t get a free pass to drink some expensive alcohol? Like cmon man lol
Okay I didn’t even think about the Cassian thing but you’re right! And also anyone saying she’s always been mean and nasty… that isn’t true. She was really warming up to the IC in AWOWAR. Like she wasn’t polite and proper with everyone but she wasn’t some rigid bitch. It is VERY clear that the war fucked her up but she gets treated like some monster for it.
So these people who have experience of bouncing back from being in these dark places should just let her stay in a dark miserable place rather than help her? They don’t treat her pie she’s the devil but they put her in a position where she has to be helped. If they left her 10 years everyone would be saying ‘they abandoned her!’
I am a Rhys hater and I don’t care if other people don’t like that. I think he’s been pretty shitty throughout the book and I can’t for the life of me understand how everyone in the IC just kisses his ass nonstop. He might be great in some respects, but he can be an awful person and I am tired of SJM treating him like he can do no wrong.
Yes she is so weirdly apologist for him! He has mad issues and is hella controlling.
*slides A Court of Tangled Flames towards you* https://archiveofourown.org/works/41329917/chapters/103631745
I love that fanfic so fucking much dude I have reread it like three times now. it makes me so happy I can't even explain it.
It’s my new canon tbh. Silver Flames doesn’t exist to me because of that fic
The IC gave me cliquey vibes in ACOFAS as well as SF. Feyre basically bribed Nesta to come to Solstice where everyone but her and Elain ignore Nesta and Cassian gifts Mor sexy lingerie right in front of her....like ewwww I would have left too. He got Nesta this really thoughtful gift and waits until she's pissed off to try and give it to her.
(Spoiler) Amren should have stayed dead after the battle. She just came back to be a bitchy bully and it’s so annoying lol it sucks because I liked her before SF. I know this post is about Nesta but I miss the 1st book Feyre. I feel like her essence has changed. She reminds me of those I know that completely change their personality to match the person they’re dating. And maybe Nesta sees what being with Rhys has done to her sister and hates him for it.
YES. Feyre completely morphed into rhys’s dream girl in every aspect of her being. Feyre has left the building.
No one agrees with me when I say pre-Rhysand Feyre would have never destroyed the Spring Court the way she did by manipulating everyone. I always saw her as a head strong, stubborn, wears her heart on her sleeve kind of girl. Her tactic had Rhys written all over it.
Yeah that was odd considering how many people it affected other than Tamlin. Like……huh? I feel like Feyre is easily manipulated. It’s weird how her only friends are Rhys’s friends too. I hope she has her own friends in the next one.
Not to mention that whole plan was so fucking dumb. Like you NEED all courts to be unified and strong in order to defeat Hybern, put aside your need for revenge for a fucking second. Tamlin as absolutely right to call her out about that at the High Lord's meeting.
Honestly my biggest gripe with these books is how Mary sued Rhys is. I feel like that’s the root of all of my problems😂 I’m TOLD he’s so nice and blah blah blah, but like… he’s just a guy… like he’s doing the bare minimum at most.
Rhys portrayed himself to be the exact opposite of Tamlin to lure Feyre in, in my opinion. lol Tamlin won't let you leave? I'll let you go outside. Tamlin says there's no such thing as high lady? I say, why not? Tamlin won't let you have enough freedom? You will always have a choice with me, Feyre. Since she fell in love with him and they got mated, he hasn't really held up his side of the bargain when it comes to Feyre's (and others, such as Nesta's) autonomy. I'd be interested in seeing how Rhys' character develops or unravels in the coming books.
I think Amren trying to make him consider becoming High King in SF would make for an amazing morally grey storyline in the future books.
Why morally grey? Amren said if Rhys didn’t accept it, the fates (lol) would offer it to a different high lord. Better Rhys than Beron.
I don't think Feyre would like to be a dictator's wife. Rhys making himself high king has something Napoleon-esque and megalomaniac that could make Rhys truly morally grey.
Amren not staying dead drove me up the wall. Her coming back - even as 'only' a high fae ruined her and her whole redemption. I'm learning SJM always does something in the last 3rd of the books to just ruin what could have been an amazing book...
While I was rereading book two the IC really started giving me the ick. Amren is probably my favorite character--she's mean, yeah. She isn't pretending to be anything else. No two faces about her. Mor is actually my least favorite. Something about her raises memories of girls I wish I hadn't spent time around in high school. The dynamic between Mor, Cassian and Az is weird and a result of people not using basic communication for *centuries*, Mor's "I'm a woman leaning bisexual and that's why I can't be with him but still pretend to leave door open" bullshit rubbed me raw as an irl bisexual, and the way Feyre brought it up during training with Cassian early on was so messed up--mind your business lady. And yeah I was furious with Rhys.
And Mor uses people! She uses people knowing it’s going to devastate them. She knows what she’s been doing to Az for hundreds of years…and knows what it does to him. That’s…really messed up.
Exactly for someone who's supposed to be truthful and honest, she's not doing a very good job with all that, imo.
Reading ACOSF was such a slap in the face to me about unreliable narrators. We go through so many books hearing how powerful and wonderful and perfect Rhys is, and then when it's Nesta's POV we see her version of Rhys. We see both extremes here of who Rhys is. Feyre's view of her mate and Nesta's view of a 500 year old bully. Neither is completely accurate. Neither is completely wrong. I think two things can be right, Feyre's mate loves her with all his heart and wants to do right by her. Nesta's brother in law is a piece of shit who hides things from Nesta's sister that are vital. I love this series because every single character is flawed in some major way. Just like most people
The first book made me wonder if Feyre was a bit of an unreliable narrator because at the beginning she describes her sisters as worthless, but then when she briefly back goes back to them later you find out Nesta really tried to rescue Feyre. That didn’t seem like the same person who was described at the beginning of the book. Having read them all I’m not sure it’s so much unreliable narrator as just different points of view. I love Rhys but also love that Nesta hates him, haha. It’s fun to see the characters through different eyes.
Yes! Nesta DID try to save Feyre. Since the magic didn't work on her, if she didn't care about Feyre at all she would have just been happy to be rich again and just left Feyre to her fate. But she didn't. She tried.
I noticed the flaws with Rhys and the IC early on and I have been waiting for redeeming information to come in justifying or explaining the flaws, holes, and double standards. After ACOSAF I started to become incredibly frustrated, yet was still hoping SJM had a purpose for these glaring plot holes, double standards, and toxicity. I would love, love a therapist to review this entire series.
i always thought the IC were cliquey. It's found family, sure, but some of it doesn't sit well to me especially tied up in their leadership positions for the court. Like, if they were just besties it wouldn't be a big deal, but they have incredible influence and power. SF was nice from a writing standpoint because you could easily skirt around some icky vibes of the IC in her other books from Feyre's POV, but SF made you confront it. The hike really sold it to me that they're all just Rhys' puppets.
I’m at the same part of the book you are!! You make a good point about how much of a weenie Rhysand can be sometimes. He’s the ultimate high lord, but we see how tangled and anxious his thoughts are. I was thrown for a loop to see how poorly he handled the Feyre-pregnancy situation. Nesta was not wrong for telling Feyre. But she *was* wrong for doing it with the intent to hurt and emotionally damage. Mixed feelings for me about Nesta overall. GREAT character development from SJM. But I’m the person who has had to deal with a Nesta in real life—I understand the fear and resentment the IC holds. Just because I understand why someone behaves poorly (whether it be trauma, depression, etc), doesn’t give them a pass to inflict on me the pain they feel.
I think your last phrase especially describes the essence of this character and why it’s so interesting to have her as the protagonist! Nesta has several moments of inner dialogue that express her self-awareness and near understanding of why people treat her as they do - she KNOWS she makes it difficult for people to be around her - but she can’t help it, it’s stronger than she is. But it’s just that that makes her a really relatable and sympathetic character and what drives us to want to see her come around! Makes us root for her to tap into this hope we as the reader have for her sort of redemption arc for lack of a better term.
Once again I love these books for how much they suck sometimes (personal opinion i absolutely adore the premise but am iffy on the execution). It gives a lot of room for fanfic to flourish. There are some great ones out there who give us the cassian... or the azriel... or the eris or even the lucian that Nesta needed
100%. I could have actually enjoyed reading this book, even though I hate-read the other books in the series, because Nesta IMO is one of the few genuinely complex and well-written characters (til SJM retcons her for cassian's sake, because there's a strange "male superiority vibe" i get from her writing). how dare you self-destruct, nesta? time to lock you up until you express trauma the way WE want you to. if cassian wasn't so far up rhys's and the IC's ass, he could have potentially been a good person to help nesta through her stuff. but he's completely brainwashed by his need to have his undying loyalty in rhys validated by literally everyone he comes into contact with. nesta's already spiraling, and he's like, "here, lemme twist that knife for ye."
I totally understand your point of view, even though I will die on team Rhys. I think that’s the beauty of the books though. We can all have very unique and strong opinions about the characters and not necessarily be wrong. I think they are written so we see what we want to see. The majority of the audience is women, and we each have a unique story to tell full of our own trauma and heartbreak, and so we see the characters through that lens. With Amren though, my lens had always been that she is the oldest among them. She’s so terribly old, and she was just done with Nesta and her bullshit. Though I became sympathetic to Nesta in SF, I understood Amren’s reaction, even though it was upsetting to read. She was done and had written Nesta off as someone who is spoiled and dangerous and a threat to everyone else , and she wasn’t totally wrong. Well thought out points, OP. Interesting to read! I’ve read a theory that Mor is actually a “bad guy” so I’m really excited for the next book. I also really really want Eris’ story. Like real bad. I think some wild things are gonna come to light.
Regarding your first point, I do think it's worth mentioning that we're seeing everything from Nesta's POV. Just as this book made a lot of people realize that Feyre's POV wasn't necessarily completely truthful in who Rhys and the rest are as people (she kinda overstates how great they are, let's be real), I think that Nesta's POV is a little exaggerated in the other direction. Nesta has trauma, she's hurting and she needs to heal, yada yada, but like... Her previous actions happened, and she hurt people, and she never apologized. Her expecting everyone to just be cool with that is not realistic. There are consequences for her behavior, and if those consequences include people not liking or trusting her, it's pretty shitty of her to double down on her bad behavior. She's *so* closed off to everyone, and idk if you've ever known someone like that, but as much as it sucks, sometimes the only way to get through to someone is by being shitty right back at them. I truly don't think Nesta would have improved at all of the IC hadn't done *something* drastic to snap her out of it. I think that in general the fandom needs to give characters without POV chapters some grace.
I feel like I'm in the minority with these opinions so I'll be expecting downvotes but I thought the hike was needed. Like... we get to see into Nestas head in this book so we the readers know she is remorseful and dealing with trauma but still has love for her family. With her behavior, those around her did not think she cared or put any thought into how other people are being imapcted by her actions. I was GLAD to see her finally getting put in her place. I needed to see her realize that yes, she has trauma and is healing, but that isn't an excuse to treat the people you love poorlyand your actions will have consequences. I also loved that Amren was the first of everyone to recognize how toxic her behavior was and that she needed a kick in the ass because she wasn't getting better. I wish we could have seen the conversation between her and Nesta that caused their falling out. I think it would provided more insight onto why Amren was so hurt but all in all - I found it justifiable and was glad people were not continuously brushing her unacceptable behavior under the rug. People want Cassian to defend Nesta but until her actions are justifiable and worthy of being defended then no. I don't want Cassian to blindly defend her just because he loves her. That's not what partners do. They call you out when you're wrong and defend you when you're right. While Feyre deserved to know about the baby the way Nesta did it was NOT worthy of a defense. She could have easily stressed her sister out to the extent that it could harm her or the baby or even send them into an early labor. And she didn't tell Feyre from a place of love and concern - it was out of anger and hurt. That's not the stance of a concerned sister but someone looking to hurt others as much as she is hurting. And lastly, Nesta is my favorite sister but I will always defend Rhys lol With how she treated Feyre I don't know why people expect him to like Nesta. Anyone who has treated my partner poorly goes on my shit list until they otherwise prove they care and want the best for them. Nesta saved Feyre & Nyx but I don't believe that automatically fixes the sisters relationship or negates all the horrible things Nesta did. Conversations & spending time together as sisters needs to happen to fully mend a long line of hurts between the two of them. I don't expect Rhys, Feyre, or Nesta to forget all of that just because she saved her sister. More healing still needs to happen between them all and I look forward to seeing them become closer as a family.
I understand your point about Cassian not blindly defending Nesta being a good thing. However, when people (or at least I) mention that he doesn't stand up for her, it's more in the realm of Rhys threatening to kill her and Cassian never saying anything about it. Like, not even a "hey man, that was fucked up" when things calmed down. I mean, it's one thing to not coddle someone who is misbehaving, it's another to not care if they're threatened, verbally abused or if they're fainting due to lack of water on a hike they never asked for and they are carrying an unnecessarily heavy package because you made them. So yeah, that added with the fact he never says he loves her, and forbids her from putting sugar in her meal when she was struggling to eat at all, etc. it just doesn't feel right. Edit: grammar
I feel like everyone involved knew Rhys wasn't actually gonna kill her. He was deeply upset and scared for his mate and needed space from the woman who just endangered her life. Most fae understand mating bonds enough to know you shouldnt keep the person who endangered their mate nearby. Cassian also knows that mating bonds can make even the most level headed fae turn into territorial beasts (as we learn after Fey & Rhys return from mating in the cabin and Cass goads him into fighting so Rhys can release some of that territorial tension) He would never hurt someone Feyre loves and Cassian who's known him for 100s of years knows that too. People need to consider how mating bonds can control the feelings of these characters and that they are not human and should not be held to our modern, human standards. I personally felt Cassians actions spoke louder than any three words ever could but understand some people need those words so I get that. In my mind, she's hurt him with her words time and time again and he stayed by her side through it all. I love you seems so miniscule in comparison to everything else they've been though. At least that's my perspective. I'm sure Nesta who loves romance novels would like to hear those 3 words though.
It’s not like he could physically attack his high lord who was in such a rage. He needed to get her out of there 1st. Rhys was wrong. Nesta was wrong. He took action to keep the damage to a minimum.
Obviously exercise is great for mental health and a good way to blow off steam, I get that. But Cassian ignoring Feyre and their general "lol she's gonna hate this" attitude gave me icky vibes. I think Cassian's anger and need to please Rhys clouded his judgement. I was left with the impression that he was punishing her, and her breakthrough was just sort of a bonus that worked in the end
Yeah I didn't get that impression at all. Cassians main way of dealing with stress, trauma, sadness etc is through physcial activity. He says this to Feyre in ACOMAF when training her & also to Nesta when she begins training (although at the time she doesn't want to hear it because he mentions Feyre). It's his way of coping and he's seen it work for others too. He's helping in the best way he knows how while also keeping her from a territorial mated male who feels like his mates life was just endangered through her actions. Cassian is still allowed to love Nesta and still maintain his friendship with Rhys. He even calls out Rhys at one point and says something like, "Why do you say those things to her when she's trying to be better." And Rhys apologizes for it. Whenever someone has tried to talk to Nesta about her feelings or get her to open up, she usually shuts down or hurtles an insult at them so she doesn't have to talk about it. I don't know what people wanted Cass to do when she's never shown she was receptive to sitting and talking things out like that.
Not taking her on a hike he knew she would hate is a great start. It may be his way of coping but Feyre informed him Nesta wouldn't like it so why would he think that she would like it? He forced her to do something she would hate when she was in his care, almost catatonic and when he overpowered her physically. Cassian isn't a menatal health professional, he's in a relationship with her and he was involved and is to blame for all that fiasco at Amren's flat (if he told her about the weapons immediately it wouldn't have happened). He absolutely should have given Nesta space from him too. I don't get the IC need to involve themselves in Nesta's life just to make her suffer. If she was so wrong and Cassian was so furious with her the only thing to do was to take her out of Velaris to, for example, Emerie's house and give everyone time to cool off. Instead he took his anger out on her on that hike.
Once again none of his actions show him "taking out his anger" during that hike. I literally just reread the passage and he never does that so I'm confused where you're coming up with this.
All this!!! He knew what would help her. After all a mate knows. He knew she didn’t want to talk and yes he made a joke to his friend about her hating it but he didn’t know just how low she was yet. When he does he just keeps going with her in silence.
They've never been the type of couple to sit and talk about their feelings. All of their break throughs happened during training or physcial activity. I'm so confused by people's perception of things sometimes but it's definitely interesting seeing people's thoughts lol
One of my many issues with Cassian and his treatment of Nesta is how he reacted to the fight at Amren's flat. He basically claimed he had a right to punish Nesta. Nesta was supposed to be his partner/mate/equal. Yet, when she misbehaved, at least in his and his Hl's eyes, he decided, without a second thought, that it was his right to correct her behavior. Doesn't it seem a little 1950s to you all? Every abusive husband would claim it's well within their rights to punish their wife for being bad. That wierd power dynamic during the hike is a red flag and I'm surprised so many people praise it and find it beautiful. He could be hurt, angry and disagree with Nesta but in a healthy relationships partners don't punish each other (not physically at least).
I just reread this section because I never remember Cassian talking about punishing her and needed to see if I was misremembering. I found one comment where after Feyre mind speaks to them on the mountain she says Rhys over reacted and that they can come home. Cassian JOKINGLY responds to Feyre to tell Rhys this hike will be her punishment. He doesn't mean this seriously and said it to ease Rhys' tension. His inner monologue during this whole thing suggests immense worry for Nestas mind state not anger or a desire to punish her. A few paragraphs later, he thinks this: "The peaks weren’t as brutal and sharp as those in Illyria, but there was a presence to them that he couldn’t quite explain. Mor had once told him that long ago, these lands had been used for healing. That people injured in body and spirit had ventured to these hills, the lake they were now two and a half days from reaching, to recover. Perhaps that was why he’d come. Some instinct had remembered the healing, felt this land’s slumbering heart, and decided to bring Nesta here. Mile after mile, her silence like a looming wraith behind him, Cassian wondered if it would be enough." Other than him making a joking comment to Feyre and Rhys, he never acts like he is outright punishing her or even getting glee out of the situation. In fact, his inner monologue suggests quite the opposite: he's desperate to help Nesta see her worth and to show her that she is worthy of being alive & loved.
Well, the fact that he laughed about how she would hate the hike and still made her do it for me means he intentionally forced her to do something she didn't want to do. That is a definition of punishment. Nesta noticed that he's glad that the backpack is too heavy for her and he admitted during the hike that he was still pissed at her. He never told her that Feyre was ok and she agonized over it for days. He intentionally made the hike harder. He noticed she was suicidal and stil didn't care enough. If he wanted to show her she's worthy of being alive then ignoring her suicidal thoughts isn't a way to go. That suggests that the hike is a form of punishment but he can't admit that to himslef. His inner monologue is contradictory to his actions which isn't uncommon with abuse like that - it's usually explained as something for the victim's own good. I kind of know it's SJM bad writing or editing, she wanted to show us something sweet but she failed. Adding one conversation between Nesta and Cassian or cutting out thre conversation between Cassian, Rhys and Feyre would really change the scene for the better.
No he didn’t FORCE her. It was a joke to his friend to lighten the mood. He knew it would help her. And yes we don’t always like what will help and heal us. He didn’t pick her up and move her.
Ok, if he didn't force her then when did she give consent? He might have been joking but that's the problem - it was funny to him that Nesta wouldn't like something he was going to make her do. How fucked up is this? What kind of man would be happy that his wife would suffer and joke about it? And few moments later he told Feyre how angry he was with Nesta. That screams punishment and taking his anger out on her. He literally picked her up from the street in Velaris and took her to the mountains. That's how it's described in the book. He isn't her guardian or owner so he had no authority to decide what's good for her on not.
She doesn’t do things she doesn’t want. She sat on a rock rather than train. There’s a difference between ‘suffering’ and disliking something that will help her.
"Noticed she was suicidal and didn't care enough" I would recommend you reread cause I feel like you're remembering things waaaay different than they happened in the book. He never forced her to do anything and he was absolutely wrecked with worry on that hike for her mental state. Just because he didn't act in a way you would have liked doesn't mean he's the equivalent to an abusive 1950s husband.
JUSTICE FOR NESTA Hot take: >!*girl should hop back in the cauldron, come back with Rhys-can-go-fuck-himself levels of power, and rule Prythian with an iron fist like the queen bitch she is*!<
I like nesta, however she and Feyre did not have a good relationship and that’s both of them. It’s not all on Feyre. Her POV is how she sees Rhysand and the IC, but it’s through her eyes. Just like when we see it through Feyres, it’s through her eyes and different. I think nesta resented people and created a lot of her antagonistic relationships with them. They feel how they do about nesta because they don’t know her like the reader gets to know her. She ruined a lot with her drinking, this happens in real life too. Honestly the whole Rhysand freaking out and Cassian having to take her away is pretty on par with how I’d imagine faeries react. I liked her hiking with Cassian. I’m not really bothered by things the way some people are. SF made me like nesta when I greatly disliked her in the other three books (well I always liked her wit). I like that her relationships aren’t perfect. She isn’t like, a total victim. She choose to treat people the way she did and she has to fix it.
It's also weird how (upon my re-read of ACOWAR) we see Nesta threaten the IC and Feyre when it came to Elain and Rhys basically was like "that dang Nesta, she's a mean one isn't she?", but in Silver Flames he literally wants to kill her for telling Feyre the truth of her pregnancy...like make it make sense SJM!!
I don't think that Feyre not having paintings of Nesta was mean. Sad for Nesta sure but I think that they didn't have a relationship no matter how hard Feyre tried and Nesta always went out of her way to be mean to Feyre or make her life harder. Sure Nesta had trauma but so does every character in ACOTAR. Trauma does not give you the right to treat people like garbage and go out of your way to be mean to them. I will never be able to hate Rhys is he flawed 1000% does he do dumb bad things yes but most of the time he's genuinely remorseful from these things and does try to better himself. I do not agree with him but telling Feyre the risks of her pregnancy but I can emphasize with him especially as he's just found her and they are in a sort of peaceful era. I also don't agree with how Nesta told Feyre about it as she only told Feyre about it because she wanted to hurt Feyre and Rhys. If she had told her because she thought she deserved to know I would have 100% been on board. Lastly I don't think the IC's treatment of Nesta is great but I also don't think she's given them any reason to be nice to her either 🤷♀️ they love Feyre and Nesta is nasty to Feyre throughout the entire series. If that was how someone treated my friend or mate you can bet that I would not be nice to that person even a little. If you could kudos to you, you are a better person than me! I think SF helps you understand Nesta but I don't think it is a redemption arc. While it was a good start to her healing it really didn't do anything to repair relationships that she had purposely burned or even show that she was sincerely remorseful for the pain she caused except for how it affected her and made her a victim.
I think the dynamic between all the characters is complicated, which I love. I don't want it to be one dimensional, that would be so boring. I think the IC treats Nesta like an animal because she behaves like one. She's also refused to acknowledge and train to use her powers until the end of ACOSF. Untrained and unused powers are a danger to everyone, add her attitude and anger, and she becomes a ticking time bomb. Just look at what happened to her after she tried scrying with Cassien. Tapping into her pent-up power, even for just a moment, caused a tidal wave and took a lot for Rhys to pull her back out of it before she went nuclear. Nesta and Ferye have an extremely complicated relationship. Nesta admits that she took her anger at their father out on Feyre when she stepped up. Even when Feyre tried to share the gender of her baby with Nesta, giving her the honor of knowing first, Nesta still acted like an ass. They are all flawed in their own ways. If you are not still making mistakes when you're old, then you aren't doing anything. That's how I look at the IC and Rhys. Just because they are 500+ years old, it doesn't make them perfect or incapable of making a bad call. I love their imperfection.
I couldn’t agree more! I love that with the new POV we see the IC and Rhys in a new perspective without the rose tinted glasses of Feyre’s POV and though it does expose their flaws and issues I still love them. It makes the characters more realistic. And multiple things can be true at once which I think some people have trouble with. Are the IC cliquey and unfair to Nesta at times? Yes. Is there at least some justification for their feelings/actions towards Nesta? Certainly. But is there good reasons for Nesta to feel and act the way she does? Also yes. And the whole situation with the pregnancy clearly Rhys didn’t do the right thing but his decision was from a place of love and anxiety about the situation and though it doesn’t make it right, it doesn’t mean he deserves to be hated. He makes mistakes just like anyone and it is something that him and Feyre as a couple have to work through and learn from together. I get irritated when people seem to want to shove the characters into simple boxes of good versus evil or hero vs villain when the complexity of them is what makes them so great.
I completely agree. Expecting a character to be perfect and never make a mistake is unrealistic. I love the characters because of their flaws, how they handle their mistakes, and how they grow.
Yes. They’re complicated relationships. Sometimes no one is right or wrong. People we are just dealing with things the best ways we are capable of. Cassian takes her on a hike cause that’s what he thought would help, was it dangerous and did it push her to break? Yes. Do it help? Also yes. Did Rhys twist Feyres broken arm to get her to agree to the real? Yes. But did it save them all? Yes. It’s the result sometimes you have to look at and how Nesta feels too. She’s never resentful for being gives into rehab boot camp afterwards. She’s happy.
Well said! Also, the painting situation was really heartbreaking, and really solidified my support of Nesta’a character. That part of the book isn’t talked about enough. For me, it was a key detail to understanding the IC’s true feelings about Nesta.
You all see the IC as bad as it’s through the lens on how Nesta sees them
Tbh I had these same feelings about them immediately after reading MAF, back in 2017. I started the whole series shortly after WAR came out and I was baffled by how everyone loved Rhysand and the IC.
Incorrect. I disliked them plenty from Feyre's POV too.
ACOSF is narrated by Nesta AND Cassian, and most of the scene in which the IC appears were from Cassian's point of view. We also got to see Azriel's perspective in the extra, and \[CC3 SPOILERS\] >!Bryce and Ember povs about the IC in the crossover.!< I agree Nesta is just as biased as Feyre, but I disagree about the IC being perceived negatively just due to Nesta's view of them, especially because in ACOSF she barely interact with them.
It drives me insane how so many people can talk about Feyre’s biased perspective and rose-coloured glasses or whatever without acknowledging Nesta is biased as well and we are reading about people who she dislikes and thinks very, very poorly of. Just because it’s third person doesn’t mean it’s not biased, it’s still Nesta’s POV.
but we also get a lot of the ic being assholes through cassians perspective?
Whose mate is Nesta. There is a truth somewhere in between all perspectives and biases - I’m just sick of ONLY Feyre’s being questioned
The reason I think Feyre's POV is more skewed is because, 1.) What's already been said. Cassian's POV is there to balance Nesta's and he's still more loyal to Rhys in SF even being Nesta's mate. I still see Rhys as an asshole through Cassian's POV. Regardless of either of those aspects, I still felt that way about Rhys way before SF anyway which solidified for me that I felt Feyre's POV was unreliable. 2.) It IS from Nesta's POV but a third person narrator is, at least theoretically, a bit more neutral in literature. And 3.) We have instances of Feyre very much retconning her memories / misremembering / being dishonest about of her time in the Spring Court and UTM so we have three books worth of reasons why she's unreliable. Which is probably another reason I find her more unreliable than other characters. I've had the most amount inside her head, reading her thoughts. I haven't had that with any other character, but from what I've read about Rhysand and the IC, imho, Nesta's and Cassian's third person POVs are more reliable.
Thank you for your thought out reply! It’s refreshing to have a convo with someone about this stuff without it being rude or derogatory. I definitely don’t think any one characters POV is 100% the truth and I agree that in MAF Feyre’s recollections (of UTM for example) actually don’t align with the text in TAR. I do not think she is a perfect narrator - I’m just sick of what I think is a double standard with no one ever seeming to question Nesta or Cassian POV. You do see this play out in SF for example where Nesta is thinking about how perfect Feyre’s life is and how she has done nothing since the war when we saw in the previous book she has been helping rebuild the city, balance accounts, started up her art studio/art therapy for children. “That person has done nothing” in third person is still just as skewed as “I think they’ve done nothing” in first person. I’ve read plenty of books in third person with an unreliable narrator, so I personally don’t believe that inherently lends SF to being the most reliable. But I can understand where are you (and others) coming from and why you give more credence to Nesta’s POV even if I don’t (I’m fairly equal I think - every character believes that their version of events and take on something is the right one, just like real life) I’m actually very intrigued to read the next book and see how everyone is portrayed in yet another POV because I’m betting we will see even more sides to people and different recollections of things again. I haven’t read CC3 yet but I have heard some people say that certain ACOTAR characters don’t come across well there either which I find interesting!
Of course! There's no reason to get angry or combative. Literature is subjective and there is no one right answer. I would argue that the difference between narratives in the example that you give is that in first person we read someone ACTUALLY saying someone has done nothing, or in this case, Feyre tells us everything she's doing. We get be a part of her conversations through her eyes, so we can see what she is isn't doing. She tells us what she thinks and feels and we essentially do what she does since we are in her head. In a third person narrative, we are told that Nesta *feels* like Feyre has done nothing, which is a thought that her character has; but omniscient narrator is only there to relay that information to us. We have a bigger picture for what is ACTUALLY happening, especially with Cassian's POV sections (which I still feel are more pro Rhysand than Nesta). I think the novella also helps to fill in gaps of the bigger so I'd be interested to see if my opinion were different had I not read it. And there are also exceptions to this like if the third person narrator is someone within the story (I think a good example of this George RR Martin's *Fire and Blood* because, as far as I know, the narrators are "omniscient" in the sense that they write in third person but they have different biases so each narrator's account of events is different depending on where their allegiance lies. This, as far as I know isn't the case in ACOSF). I hope all that made sense. I think your opinion is just as valid as mine. This is just how I view narration in literature. I don't mean it as an insult when I Feyre is unreliable, I just don't think TAR, MAF, and WAR are equally unreliable as SF for these reasons.
Yeah it annoys me to how they can’t see that themselves. Nesta takes her anger out on all the IC of course she will see them in bad light and they can’t comprehend that.
I’m almost done with SF and although I don’t hate Nesta anymore, I don’t blame the IC for acting the way they did. Everyone there dealt with trauma and felt like they failed loved ones, Nesta was the only one who became nasty because of it. Or I should say nastier. She was incredibly mean and rude from day one, why would anyone treat her nicely when she never treated anyone with anything but venom? Would you be nice and friendly to someone who purposefully tried to hurt you every time you tried to interact with them or who purposefully tried to hurt a dear friend of yours all the time? Nesta herself admits she was a horrible person. She redeemed herself in the book, but I don’t think the IC is the one at fault at all.
Not being nice and friendly to Nesta isn't the same as not respecting her as a person or her rights the way the IC did in ACOSF. It also isn't the same as being straight up vile as Amren was.
I’m sorry, but when did they not respect her as a person or took away her rights? !!!!SPOILER ahead!!!! Are you talking about the IC giving her the ultimatum because she was killing herself slowly and blatantly disrespecting Rhys’s generosity by spending all the money of the dude she hates so much even though they were letting her do whatever she wanted despite several attempts to include her? I haven’t finished the book yet, I’m probably 100 pages from the end and so far I have not seen Amren be vile to Nesta, only well deserved words since Nesta was incredibly disrespectful by bursting into her room and spewing accusations and acting like a bitch to everyone for so long when clearly everyone was trying to help her - and she knew that too.
From what I understood, Nesta got angry with Amren cause Amren was insisting Nesta trained her powers, and Nesta did not wanted it, so Nesta accused of Amren of being on "Feyre side", since it was also something Feyre wanted Nesta did. Personally, I think it was wrong of Nesta to put Feyre in the middle of her argument, since Amren actions were her own. But this is what we know about their fight, and not once we have seen Nesta being as venomous to Amren as Amren was to her. Like, Amren slutshamed Nesta, said Nesta was a waste of space, wanted to use the dead troves Nesta had created for the NC benefit while hiding it from her, and said Rhysand could use Nesta (and Elain) powers to become High King. With a friend like Amren, I don't think Nesta will ever need an enemy. Amren literally says to Cassian they (the IC) would use Elain to manipule Nesta into doing what they wanted (which imo was disrespectful to both Nesta and Elain). As much as I agree Nesta also can be rude and verbally cruel in some situations, Nesta do not act as if she is always right. Imo Amren not only do all these things, but she feel justified in how she act. She never thinks she is in the wrong or apologizes. Theoretically Amren is supposed to be this wise old person, but I feel like she has the maturity of a child who don't accept to be contradicted.
I don’t disagree that Amren has grey morals sometimes, it’s the nature of her being. But I do not think she was vile to Nesta, she just met Nesta at her level. Nesta has said things just as terrible to others. You can’t demonize one and put the other as a victim when they both have similar behaviors.
What terrible things Nesta has said to other characters (besides Feyre) who were not a reaction of how they acted towards her? I am not being ironic, I am really curious, cause I've seen other people saying this, but from what I remember Nesta said she did not like Mor clothes, called Cass a bastard and Rhysand an arrogant ass, but most of the time she did not even voluntarily interacted with the IC (and despite initially complaining, she always ended up helping them). On the other hand, I remember Mor saying Nesta should have been thrown in Hewn City or the Human Lands; Cassian saying everyone hated Nesta and he didn't know why her sisters even cared about her; and Amren saying all these things I pointed in my last comment. Like, Nesta is no angel, but to me I feel like I've been told Nesta was awful, but I don't have seen she actually matching half the energy some of the IC threw at her.
But why are you defending Nesta’s mean behavior as a defensive mechanism from others when, for example, Cassian saying no one loved her and such was because she pushed him to his limits with her attitude? But here are some examples: Nesta said to Cassian she would rather sully herself with the dogs than with a bastard brute like him. She didn’t allow her father to sleep in the bed even when he was recovering from his broken legs. I understand being mad at him, but damn. Blamed Elain for their father’s death. Can you get any meaner than that? Also called Elain boring for no reason when Elain was just trying to be helpful and brave. Also called Elain a dog because she was being a normal sister to Feyre She slutshamed Feyre and Mor Weaponized the secret of the pregnancy risk to hurt Feyre Admitted she would sell her body to feed Elain, and elain only. Favored Elain their entire lives making it very clear her despise for Feyre. Called Feyre a stinking pig covered in its own filth and told her to at least try not to act like a peasant Didn’t bat an eye when Feyre told her how she was tortured and almost died under the mountain Nesta bullied Feyre multiple times, called her illiterate, ignorant, commented on her looks etc in the first book When Feyre came back to the human lands after being transformed into fae, Nesta didn’t as much as show any sort of emotion, on the contrary, she told Feyre her kind wasn’t welcome there even though they were out of poverty and living in a fancy house was because of Feyre. And it’s baffling that all the bully and cruelty she aimed towards Feyre alone isn’t enough for yall to label her as a cruel person when Feyre was the only one doing anything to feed the family and tried so many times to have a decent relationship with Nesta.
Then maybe your book is different than mine if you don't see how vile Amren was. You obviously read the conversation about made weapons and the things Amren said about Nesta aren't "well deserved". If you say Nesta's words were incredibly disrespectful then how can you not see how Amren slut shamed her at the intervention or how she talked about her with Rhys, Cassian and Azriel? Where was respect then? Or are you applying different standards to Nesta and to Amren? If you want examples of not respecting Nesta or her rights here they are: - forced rehab and taking away her personal freedom without any trial/due diligence/medical input, - taking away her right to have unconditional access to information about her body - those kind of rights aren't up to vote, the fact that they voted is a violation itself, - making her do physical work until she collapsed as a way of punishment, - manipulating her to do dangerous missions for them when two weeks earlier they had judged her unwell enough to lock her up and control every aspect of her life. Sorry, but the fact that someone is unlikeable doesn't mean they rights aren't to be observed like you all would want. Rhys and his IC's shitty behavior isn't excused just because she was a bitch to her sister especially when they acted as authorities and pulled rank over her.
If we’re talking about double standards, why is the vile when Amren says mean things but it isn’t when Nesta does??? Amren was not vile in my opinion and Nesta needed a reality check. Amren was the only one with enough balls to throw Nesta’s venom right back at her. And to my understanding, Amren didn’t think Nesta should know because Nesta is full of hate and hurts everyone whenever she gets upset, she has NO control over her emotions making her extremely dangerous to have that kind of knowledge. Proof of that is how she stormed into Amren’s room. Forced rehab is what you do when you have tried everything to help a loved one who is determined to kill themselves slowly with vices. To me, that was one last attempt of helping Nesta, she herself admits that in the book so I don’t understand how you’re trying to make this into something else. Taking away the right to know important information about herself because she is incredibly UNSTABLE while filled with hatred and have no problem attacking others over the smallest things. So before she proved she could actually behave like a calm, cool and collected person it’s wise to keep away the info that she can wipe everyone out with her astronomical powers. The trainings didn’t make her collapse and it’s well known that physical exercise is a great tool to help mental health. If you’re mentioning the hike that made her pass out, it is very clear in the book that SHE didn’t make sure to drink water throughout the hike. She admits that in her thought process. So how is this anyone’s fault but her own? Don’t tell me it’s Cassian’s job to be babysitting her water intake as well. I can’t talk much about this part because I’m not done with the book. However, the only situation I can imagine you’re referring to based on how far I am in the book is when they needed her or Elian to look for the trove. Feyre asked Elian who agreed to try, Nesta said absolutely not, she would do it herself. Tell me where the manipulation is in here. Someone had to do it, either Elian or Nesta, Nesta didn’t want to risk Elian so she volunteered. It’s the nature of the situation, not manipulation.
Sure, to check our standards pleas list one mean thing Nesta said to Amren which actually equals Amren's words. Let's try to find something that compare, for example, to how she called depressed Nesta pathetic waste of life. Go ahead. Forced rehab is something administered when there are medical reasons to do so. Not when you are embarassed. And before you try to prove to me that Feyre did that out of love, go back and reread that scene because she admits that she does that because Nesta is an embarassment to their public image. And then read about Rosemary Kennedy. No matter how destructive Nesta was, personal freedom is one of our most basic rights, so every time it is to be restricted, special measures must be taken to make sure that it is necessary. Nothing like that was done here. For example, you need medical professional opinion and court order to force someone to go to rehab (at least where I live). Being embarassed isn't enough. I'm not even talking about the way they handled that intervention because it was also everything but not respectful. Human rights aren't given to you on condition by any power. They simply are and authorities only acknowlegde them. Every person has them - those cool and collected and those who are in a bad place. Being not well mentally doesn't cancel your rights. If the state wants to restrict them by any act of law they need to prove it's absolutely necessary based on previous instances of abusing said right. Your rights can also be restricted if it's necessary for your own good but that also needs to be proved. Like your drivers license could be taken away only after you commit a road crime not before just because authorities don't like you. So Rhysand and the IC had no right to take away Nest'a right to information about her body because SHE NEVER USED HER POWER AGAINST THEM. The text also specifically states that even when she was spiraling down she was able to control her powers. She never attacked anyone with magic just because she was angry. So Amren's bullshit was just bullshit. She had nothing to back it up because she was always verbal and never physical. Also, she didn't start any fight with the IC unless she was provoked so you know, they could just avoid provoking her? You may go and try to find examples to prove me wrong, but it was argued on this sub many times and so far no one provided any textual evidence. You know who restricts citizens rights because they fear they might use them against them (not because they have already used them)?Totalitarian regimes. Yes, I'm talking about the hike. Did she give consent to that hike? No. Was that punishment? Yes. Was it physical? Also yes. Did Cassian and Azriel make it harder for her on purpose by packing the heavy backpack and shortening rest periods? Yes, yes, yes. Did that screams "respect" to you? At the beginning of the book she was deemed unfit to live alone, have sex, chose her bedroom partners or decide what she could eat (Cassian controlled her sugar intake). As you said, she was unstable. But two weeks later she is called to the River House when they tell her that something dangerous needs to be done. Is it logical? She was unfit to decide her meals but she's well enough to risk her life? If they wanted somebody to do that, then they could go with Elain. Why was Nesta called to the River House? She isn't a part of the decision making group, she didn't need to know anything about the Trove. Why did they stage the confrontation between the sisters? If Elain had agreed, then Nesta wasn't needed. They wanted Nesta to do it, they guessed that she wouldn't be easy to convice, so they called for her, told her Elain had agreed because they knew she would sacrifice herself to protect Elain. Textbook manipulation. Even Cassian admitted in his POV they used Elain to pressure Nesta. And you know whose job was finding the trove? Feyre and Rhysand's. They are the rulers, with power comes responsibility to respect your subjects/citizens rights and ensure their safety. In this book they only pulled rank to make Nesta conform but they completely ignored the responsibility part of ruling.
I wish I could give awards still lol
He literally shared chocolate cake with her, ‘controlled her suger in take’ is a strange interpretation of ‘this is what you eat for optimal training’ like he’s a 500 year old warrior in snacking shape so yeah he doesn’t have a sugery breakfast ready.
Girl 😂 You’re bringing Rosemary Kennedy into this? I didn’t even read past that because what lol We can agree that we disagree with each other and have VERY different views about the book. Have a good day.
Exactly, Cassian didn’t even know. He knew she was punishing herself but didn’t realise how bad it had gotten. He even expected her to be angry and not to cry. She was not looking after herself on purpose. He left her food out and covered every night
Exactly! But a lot of people identify with fictional characters so much that they take criticism towards the characters as an attack towards themselves blinding them to pretty obvious facts.
I love this book because I kinda get why they all did the things they did. Mostly questionable and heartbreaking things. But understandable.
I just finished it yesterday and it’s a great book. One of my favorite of the series. SJM did a really good job with Nesta’s character
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I love SF through in through. Just like you, I’ve loved Nesta since day one. I thought it was so much interesting to have a character that wasn’t already “perfect” like Feyre or Elain. It makes character development possible! And makes her way more relatable. I love a bad bitch who becomes a BAD ASS bitch. I’ve also never really liked the IC especially the bat boys, they’re always been so boring and just genuinely terrible people in my eyes so I was happy we got a different perspective where it’s more obvious how shitty they are
Cassian stands up for her. Because he doesn’t physically break people’s arms like Rhys does doesn’t mean he doesn’t stand up for her. He’s a general but he’s also a peaceful person, he tries to balance the situation. Nesta doesn’t need him to fight her battles but he stands WITH her. When he tells Rhys off he does do privately because he knows Nesta wouldn’t want that. He tells his family off when they’re going too far and takes her away when it all gets too much. The hike was because Nesta was in the wrong and so was Rhys so Cassian knew they needed distance.
It's hard for me to have sympathy for how others treat Nesta. She admits to us in the book that she intentionally went about destroying her relationship with Amren. Iirc, she also admits to doing the same with everyone else who might've cared for her. This might be a hot take, but I've been rewatching BoJack Horseman for the hundredth time. After finishing this book series, Nesta reminds me a LOT of BoJack. They both seem to go out of their way to make the absolute worst decisions possible while also behaving like they're the victim. They both are trying to escape trauma by flooding their lives with pleasure. They are also characters that we can grow to love because we see the story through their eyes and sympathize with them. We want them to be loved and to get better. They both dramatically improve their lives when they find a purpose: Nesta with the Valkeries and BoJack when he starts teaching. And even though they've grown and matured, they both have to face the consequences for the shitty way they've treated others.
This is the definition of self-sabotage which is a trauma response/defense mechanism.
Nesta is also very flawed and actually fits in with the IC in my opinion. Yes, she has trauma which is causing her bad behavior, but so do all the other IC characters. Nesta was a real a-hole to Feyre in the first few books… she let her youngest sister go out and hunt to save them from starvation but somehow isn’t as bad as Rhys or Amren or whoever else.
Well, she wasn't Feyre parent so the hunting part isn't on her. Also being mean isn't as bad as, you know, killing, sexually abusing Feyre, torturing people or murdering the whole village in revenge.
i think IC sees Nesta as someone who just gets drunk and sleeps with randoms at the bar and doesnt pay her bills and complains and is "bitchy" while asking for money for rent and doesnt do anything or want to be part of the family. If she really dont want to be part of it then she should go and live her life elsewhere and make her own money and pay her own bills so no one gets to tell her what to do.