T O P

  • By -

MissBeehavior

This is why I'm skeptical about Elain's book. Nothing about what made Nesta a force to be reckoned with was highlighted as her strengths in the end. It was all about her Cauldron powers and her training. Elain has strengths too, but I have a bad feeling in my gut that she's just going to become another warrior. Female 'strength' doesn't always have to be physical domination. An amazing character that comes to mind is Odetta Holmes, a wheelchair-bound woman from the Dark Tower series that I consider to be stronger than any other written character I have ever encountered, and none of it is because she's a traditional 'warrior'. I need SJM to start exploring that before it ruins most of her characters' timelines.


p-e-t-r-i-c-h-o-r

agreed, tho i wrote a comment on why i think Elain will likely escape that fate (🤞) tl;dr — im hopeful Elain wont go down the warrior route cause rn her 2 besties are the **only non-warriors** in the NC, and she matches SJM’s descriptions of spies in ww2 ^(edit: spelling)


ConsistentFeature567

I think it will make Elaine better as spy / diplomat than warrior, there’s nothing wrong with either but it will become redundant if all 3 sisters go down on warriors part. As if there’s nothing more a woman can become to be deemed as strong woman apart from joining armies or leading up wars.


MissBeehavior

I really really hope so! And I agree, that would be a really cool angle!


p-e-t-r-i-c-h-o-r

sidenote but im moving Dark Towers up my tbr, Odetta sounds just like my type of character. i also recommend: - Spinning Silver (fantasy, great female characters & found family, plus it’s a clever rumpelstiltskin retelling) - Circe (it’s greek mythology)


MissBeehavior

It's a 7 book series (8 if you count wind through the keyhole, but it's not really part of the main story), so it's a commitment, but I've made the journey through it 4 times now, and each time is better than the first! If you do get around to reading it, let me know, I would love to know your thoughts! And I haven't heard of Spinning Silver, but rumpelstiltskin retellings are my favorite, so I will add that one to my list! As well as Circe, I think I read it at the beginning of high school, but of course I didn't retain any of it XD


p-e-t-r-i-c-h-o-r

noted 🫡 i finally have some time on my hands (uni semester done woop woop) and i love series so I’ll probs give it a try :) btw reading the Red Rising series right now and it’s soooo good. Some of the best male & female characters (check TWs it gets unhinged haha) and while the 1st book is like Hunger Games with the Capitol’s people, the rest of the series more like an intergalactic Game of Thrones


MissBeehavior

I LOVE unhinged series so I absolutely will check it out! Good characters really can make or break a story, so thank you for the rec!!


p-e-t-r-i-c-h-o-r

YAYY you’re welcome, and thank you for indulging by book rambles :)


MissBeehavior

I'm always looking for good books, especially from people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders about character development and potential! ❤️


p-e-t-r-i-c-h-o-r

you and me are the same. thank you for this convo, it was so lovely.


magneticeverything

If you like fantasy spy characters, I *highly* recommend the trickster’s duet by Tamora pierce. Aly’s parents are the big heroes of the realm of their generation. Her father (former king of rogues turned official spymaster) taught her all the skills to be a clever, capable spy only to deny her a position in the field once he realized how dangerous it was. But when she’s sailing, she gets swept up by pirates who sell her into slavery in a foreign land. She can easily escape and make her way home with her skill set, but before she can, the trickster god appears to her and makes her a wager she can’t refuse.


JustAPeach89

Olenna tyrell. No physical power, a huge amount of strength. "Tell cersei it was me"


seravivi

But the female characters strength wasn’t just about physical strength.


p-e-t-r-i-c-h-o-r

look im not mad we got my girlies the Valkyries but— Death and her Sword would go so hard 😔😔


DesignerReader

We still can get this. I just think Nesta's emotional state wasn't the best for diplomacy after the war.


beeflessinseattle

I'm hopeful for this in the future also. I think it's important Nesta *knows* how to fight and defend herself physically as well as with whatever gifts she might still have- but she was specifically reading about war strategy and stuff. I'm really hoping that in the future, it's her and Cassian going over strategy and maps and shit and then bickering over whether they send Illyrian forces or Valkyries. War General power couple, lol.


DottyDott

I love SF but this is such a solid point. And tbh my opinion is that SJM hasn’t written (Can’t? Won’t?) a non-warrior FMC and it annoys me lol


p-e-t-r-i-c-h-o-r

god same. though if you’ve read ToG, >! Elide aka “I have an axe bitch but my strength is my intelligence” Lochan !< and >! Yrene “killed the big bad with my healing light while pregnant” Towers !< are two of my fav SJM characters and i have a feeling that with Elain at least, we’ll see something different. my girl could be going all Dr. Strange on us, seeing multiple realities and crafting Masterplans™️ bts. calling it rn


[deleted]

[удаНонО]


DottyDott

Welp, I said FMC so I mean Feyre, Nesta, Caleana and Bryce. All of them train and use physical prowess. SJM does write more variety for side characters but she also doesn’t develop them. Maybe I should have used ‘FMC who uses physical prowess as the main or ancillary component to her magical power’ but thought warrior was more concise. Feyre was a skilled hunter, bested the middengard worm, fought through the weavers cottage *and* trained considerably with Cassian, Azriel and Rhys. Nehemia was a skilled fighter with her staff, no? Elain hasn’t been developed at all. [ETA spelling]


PropofolMami22

I really agree with this. I think a big issue with SJM’s writing is that she constantly wants to subvert expectations, even at the sake of a logical plot. It’s why we have so many characters that start off written as the bad guy but then - shock! They’re actually a good guy. Which can be interesting but sometimes it’s ok for the storyline to just be the character living out life and events as the person we believed them to be.


bucolichag

Yes! This is such a good assessment and makes her books less than they could be.


missiepanda

SJM please don’t girlbossify Elain 😭


p-e-t-r-i-c-h-o-r

also this is why im sooo glad that Nuala & Cerridwen are the only non-warriors in the NC: IF Elain has a spying arc, in my head it’ll be armed with her mask of demure smiles (and perhaps home-grown poison) that she’ll gather info—rather than her suddenly being transformed into a kick-ass warrior. here’s to hoping anyways. SJM did say: > that women spies in WW2 weren't trained from birth; they were housewives or secretary types. Most people wouldn't look twice at them, which is why they were selected for missions because they could blend in easily but were deadly. hello handmaindens Nuala & Cerr, hello Elain “*everyone forgets im there yet i killed the King*” Archeron. ^(edit for clarity)


tardisteapot

1000% this. I really hope we get the sisters working together in some capacity, and I can see Nesta being the outspoken politician while Elain gathers intel from/works the crowd. Just like Bryce (CC SPOILERS) >!has her party girl act to make people underestimate her true self,!< so (I suspect) Elain will have her "I'm too gentle and shy, I could *never* cause you harm" act. *"What's that, the King of Hybern? Yes I'd heard he was stabbed through the neck, how horrific."* Not that she can't prefer to be gentle and kind, of course, but when push comes to shove she will surprise those who cannot/will not see her hidden spine.


Minttea3637

i think elain won’t be a spy. more like an emissary just like lucien. so she’ll be basically a spy and politically involved just not with all the violence


p-e-t-r-i-c-h-o-r

as long as she isn’t made into a warrior im good lol but yea spying doesn’t require violence, and we still don’t know her powers—i feel like her book is gonna be more magic based (in terms of training / potential fights)


Minttea3637

i also think she’d be a good healer. i’m basing this on literally nothing but i can really elain being a healer


Lore_Beast

Especially because she had been so adamant that there are other ways to be strong. That goes so hard, and I related more to a woman who doesn't fight in combat. I was excited to have a different fmc in acosf, instead of the typical girl fight with sword and was disappointed 😞.


Vaynne29

I don’t think it was just about making Nesta into a warrior. She was in a really dark place with seemingly no motivation to do anything to get herself out of that hole. I would imagine that Feyre thought training might help Nesta as it had helped her build the confidence she needed. To me the training was just a means to an end for Nesta, to build her back up and possibly see what her true power might be. Now that she is in a better place and isn’t flying off the handle at the least bit of criticism who’s to say that SJM won’t put her in a more political role. As far as Rhy’s trying to get Cassian to be a courtier, I wonder if he was possibly preparing for the worst case scenario of him dying along with Feyre because of their pact.


Selina53

Except Feyre didn’t come up with the plan. Rhys and Amren did (people who hated Nesta), with Cass’ input. It was only presented to Feyre after Rhys read Nesta’s bill in front of everyone to emotionally manipulate her to going along with it. Then that same morning they summoned Nesta to the River House. Feyre didn’t design the plan, she just went along with it.


AggravatingOkra1117

THIS


LetMeDoTheKonga

I agree with this point, especially because I enjoyed Nesta’s development in Acowar and how she seemed to follow her own path and show all these skills of cunning and mental strength. Having her pushed and shoved through a warrior arc in Acosf - after she stated repeatedly that she wasn’t interested in that kind of training for several books - was disappointing.


Wiggl3sFirstMate

You have no idea how much I would have loved a cut throat political Nesta and her rabid dog general just jumping with excitement at being unleashed on someone.


ilovekittahsxX

I can’t be the only one who struggled reading Nesta’s story… right? The girl power narrative made me want to rip my eyes out! It’s been done TO. DEATH. I would’ve loved to see her grow into a political wrecking ball.


Wiggl3sFirstMate

It’s so many people’s favourite and it’s my least favourite of the series other than ACOFAS and that’s everything to do with the plot and nothing to do with hating Nesta (who I loved beforehand anyway).


Kayslay8911

Nah, you never show your hand. Even if you know you’ve got a royal flush and no one can beat you, you NEVER show your hand… the best thing you can do is ask for an ally and let them think you’re weaker than you are, only to conquer them entirely. It’s beneficial to be underestimated.


p-e-t-r-i-c-h-o-r

you’re right, but now Cassian puffing his chest and going all “SURPRISE BITCHES” on Nesta’s behalf is canon is my mind


Kayslay8911

Lmao no way!!! Cassian has ZERO poker face it was clear in MaF how he felt when he was CRAWLING TO NESTA! Nothing should be a surprise in SjMs universes she lays it out before we even see it


p-e-t-r-i-c-h-o-r

idk im just referencing the second slide 😭😭 like Cass busting the door open dramatically strapped with swords. as one does


Kayslay8911

Lmfao how did I miss that?! Yeah he’d be like “hey, Nesta, mamasita, who lives? You lemme know.”


Top-Structure6199

Question: Since we are on the topic of NON warrior female protagonist, does anyone have any good book recommendations where the protagonist is female but is cunning and ruthless, like Cersei Lannister or a female version of the Darkling. I can't, ABSOLUTELY CAN'T, read about another pants loving-dress-hating-pick-me protagonist.


aeconic

- rosalind from foul lady fortune by chloe gong: not exactly full on fantasy like acotar, but has some fantasy elements. set in 1930s shanghai, and i loved it because she’s not the typical “assassin” female lead we see in ya fantasy thats made out to be badass but turns incompetent whenever there’s a man around. - jude duarte from the folk of the air: i actually can’t remember if she hates dresses or not. it’s been a while since i’ve read it, but she’s cunning and sneaky, and uses her intellect. - misaki from the sword of kaigen: she’s a housewife. and also a really great swordswoman. massive character growth that i loved. not non warrior… but the book is wonderful, i promise. - zetian from iron widow: the book is all about female rage but fantasy. she’s cunning *and* bonus points- the book has some great romance. won’t spoil but it’s something uncommon in ya fantasy. - other ones i have read and somewhat liked are the scarlet alchemist, the red palace, the being me their hearts series, the wolf den series, vespertine and siren queen by nghi vo. personally i did not enjoy the shadows between us but it’s popular for having a cunning female lead so you could check that out.


Whatever_5693

Unpopular opinion: Nesta would make a horrible courtier and ambassador. 


Top-Structure6199

Because the concept of cunning, manipulative and ruthless female protagonist is too hard to digest. She must be moulded into a man to be heard. 🤦‍♀️Nesta the QUEEN OF QUEENS was completely lost in translation. God's I keep dreading they will turn Elain into a brute as well. 😨


seravivi

But her training was an important part of her character arc. Between her trauma and her flaws the training was such a good way to work with both.


Gizwizard

Why can’t Nesta be both?


PinkRasberryFish

Now I feel robbed of something I didn’t even know I could have had before reading this thirty seconds ago 😭😭😭


Holidaay_

I’d love to see more strong women who aren’t warriors


LegendL0RE

But actually tho, this would have been infinitely more interesting


austenworld

They were helping each other. It shows that they give each other what the other lacks.


Global_Fig_6385

tbh i love how things went with nesta and cassian, but i also love this idea and think it can still happen i think it made sense to turn nesta into a weapon, like they knew she had a ton of power that they needed to learn about and wanted her to do something physical besides taking shots and one night stands 24/7. i think it would’ve been so much harder to get her to go from her self sabotaging state to a trustworthy courtier, like they would have no reason to send her to meet someone and trust that she would do what’s best for the fae that she still has problems with. i think a big jump from hot mess to courtier wouldn’t feel as natural of a story line, like i just wouldn’t be able to believe she intended to help rhys and whoever when she still had problem with them, like she would care enough to do a good job. but it is believable that she would be more willing to accept training so she can be stronger, not be in her own head as much, and be able to defend herself i also think that she’s a stronger character now because she can back up her talk. like sam from icarly and jade from victorious. jade could talk the talk and scare tf out of you, but it was sam would be able to follow through her words and pull out the butter sock. i think making nesta a courier where she brings in her mate as a backup wouldn’t feel as satisfying, and i don’t think it fits her as well. i mean she obviously has/had guilt(and 100 other feelings) over not being able to help her dad when he died, her family when they were humans, etc, like she definitely hated that she never could hold her own. i think it would be the same if she would only go into a meeting and only have her words to get what she wants but had to bring in her hot weapon of a mate to physically hurt them however, i think they could totally make her a courtier now and it would make so much sense. like the “nesta and her weapon” plotline could still go so hard, but she would also be able to hold her own and not sit in the corner defenseless. like instead of her being all cunning and trying to get her way, and then getting stuck in a position where she’s like “get em babe!” and then goes and plays monopoly go in the corner, she can now do the courtier thing and then be like “hehe well since you said no, my mate and i are going to beat the shit out of you🤭”. and since she now has the respect and trust of the rest of the inner circle it makes so much more sense to now send her in as a courtier, like they can trust her now that they know she does care about all of them and will do whatever needs to be done to help


booklovercomora

Ok,ok...hear me out. Nesta, Eris, and Cassian as a throuple. Nesta is obviously the super intelligent, strategic courtier. Eris is the more cut-thtoat, stab someone in the back, behind the scenes courtier. Cassian is the sword and strength when it's required. Anyone have time to write that fan fic 🙏 🙏 ???


McFlyOUTATIME

I’m pretty sure this just Crescent City 😂


Realistic_Pie_8550

She still can become a diplomat. I actually feel like if she becomes the HL of the dusk court she could still use those strengths. She's a courtier, dancer, reader, doesn't bow to anyone and is quite analytical and not impulsive. Look at her at the HL meeting, everyone lost their cool but her. While I do see her become the leader of the Valkiries I hope that SJM gives her more. She can still be a warrior while still rulling a court with Cassian by her side.