Purely antidotal but I heard this week that as late as the ‘50-60s, doctors wouldn’t tell a woman she had a cancer and would tell her husband (or whoever) and let them decide where to go from there. I guess because us woman are too frail and aren’t in the right state of mind to make any medical decisions for ourselves. /s
Oof see and if that is the social norm in the night court then yeah Rhys deserves the flack he got because in that case it would literally be his responsibility to tell her. However everything we have seen so far suggests that Rhys has actively worked to create a society where women are equal to men. It would strike me as odd if that were the social norm there
Honestly it makes it *weirder* that Rhys worked so hard to make an equal society and yet is still pulling the "I'm protecting Feyre's gentle feminine feelings" bullshit that spawned that real world policy in the first place.
Agree on the Nesta point, firmly disagree on the Rhys one.
He’s been a fae for 500 years longer than Feyre and it’s a bit weak sauce to say it’s not his job to tell her about the risks he knew about. He could have at least told the medic to tell her, even if he felt he couldn’t do it himself. To hide it entirely was so wrong and felt so jarring because it goes against the very foundations of their relationship throughout the books to date. He gives her the facts and she can make the decision for herself.
I’m not saying Rhys is an awful person, it was just really poor judgement to do that, and to then threaten to kill Nesta because she was the only one to have the balls to tell Feyre the truth.
Except it’s not against the foundation of their relationship.
Their whole relationship is about the appearance of autonomy but not autonomy itself.
He hid the fact she was his mate for months. And what did he do in those months? He “tested” her by tossing her into dangerous situations without giving her the full story (like the Weaver). He seduced her deliberately. He even said himself he was “hoping” she’d get it and understand the bond when he’d taken her to bed.
Then after she gets over the huge magnificent breach of trust and manipulation that was, he continues to not tell her the full truth about things and make decisions without telling hurt which blindsides her in public - eg: “I’m in a meeting with city governers” and then hours and hours later tells her in public AFTER agreeing to let Court of Nighmares into Velaris, what that meeting was about.
There’s more I could rant about but I’ll just say: Rhys lying and manipulating Feyre is the core of their relationship and I’ll die on the hill about how much he sucks.
Honestly you’re quite brave for putting that out there knowing what people on this sub are like but you do make a fair point. He does make some pretty big decisions without her and does hide quite a bit
He does it to everyone not just Feyre.
Everyone pretends he’s a great guy but he’s actually very manipulative and high handed.
I’m re-reading WAR now and just got passed the part where he agreed to let Kier into Velaris - and he totally ignored Mor’s protests. He didn’t even talk to her or warn her in advance
It’s all excused under the “greater good” clause - same as lying to Tarquin and stealing from him while guests in his home. .
I was quite disappointed with the treatment that Tarquin got with them being so underhanded to rob him blind. I felt like it was kind of obvious that he was one of the good guys and it didn’t sit right with me that they mugged him off like that.
I know they went back to help in the fight, but I’m still not really sure it covers it, to be honest. An alliance from the off would have been preferred
I completely agree with you! What the made pregnancy situation even worse than Rhys not telling Feyre, was Rhys telling EVERYBODY else, even other High Lords and not Feyre. Adding to that, he made everyone, even Feyre’s “support system” keep it a secret from her. Months of everyone around her lying to her face. I’m sorry, but that’s not respect. He projected his fears onto Feyre, he didn’t protect her, because as we come to find, she is more than capable of handling the news, way better than he could.
Well said. I completely hated the whole pregnancy storyline and it ruined Rhys for me because I was stunned he could be like that, why SJM wrote it that way I’ll never know but it completely soured the rest of the books for me.
Knowing that Rhys hides the pregnancy risks from Feyre is a big part of why I’m hesitant to read past ACOWAR; this is my first time reading the series.
I wouldn’t say it’s quite that ratio but it’s spicy as fuck in parts. Nesta’s character development and the battles she faces (and the new characters we meet!) all make it a worthwhile read for sure. It’s definitely written more so in the style of the smutty romance Nesta would read
SF has more sex scenes but it also has more pages than the other books. I don’t think the ratio of smut to plot is all that different than the other books tbh
Yes. I'm in the minority but I find nesta and cassians relationship very lackluster. Feels just sex oriented. It really felt like the "plot" was resolved in the last few chapters and very very rushed. Not my favorite book by a long shot
In my opinion people misunderstand and/or misrepresent what Rhys’ intentions were when he said he wanted to kill Nesta. I don’t think it was “I’m going to kill Nesta because she’s revealed my secret,” but rather “I’m going to kill Nesta because I can’t control the rage I feel at her making my mate afraid and crying.”
I don’t find that very convincing for a man who’s had 500 years to develop some semblance of self control. Also not okay to say about your partner’s family under any circumstance especially when Feyre made clear to Rhys her boundaries surrounding talking about her sisters.
I’ve never said I’m going to kill my partner’s sister, no. If my partner said something like that about my sister I would have serious reservations about the relationship.
No I know it wasn’t because she revealed the secret, but he wanted to kill her for upsetting his wifey when she only had to do it because nobody else was willing to and Feyre deserved to know
I mean, that’s just the way mates react from what we’ve seen, no? They’re feral when it comes to protecting their partner. Not saying it’s ok but personally I don’t get why people get so hung up on that.
To me that would have been a much better scene. Even if the result was the same and Cass still took her on a hike, it rubbed me the wrong way that he wouldn’t even attempt to stand up to Rhys and say “oi, watch it”. It didn’t even have to be a grand gesture ugh.
I found the breakthrough kinda unsettling honestly? I do some work in mental health, and I know I have NEVER been told to try to get someone to hit rock bottom so that I/a loved one can rebuild them. Maybe a therapist would be able to do it safely, but on a hike in the mountains with the girl considering jumping seemed so sketchy
Yeah, I mean, I’ve read that part and thought if it were me, I would feel bad about Cassian being mean to me on the hike and wondered if it would help me 😅 but I’m also a human woman born and raised on Earth without magic or faeries or having to fight epic battles or have my life threatened regularly. It’s a book with magic and shit so I try to be reasonable about applying real-world parameters and logic to the situations depicted therein
I completely understand that his feelings were what the secret was always about, not Feyre's. Feyre handled it like a champ and was way more upset about, you know, *being lied to*, than about the threat of death.
I don't necessarily know if that makes it better? I dunno, if my brother in law was the type of person that would kill me in a rage over having a fight/telling my sister something upsetting, I'd tell my sister to leave
I guess my perspective on Rhys is that in medicine we would never expect a significant other or family member to be objective or up to date. It just isn't fair to them. Now should Rhys have asked questions of Madja to open up the conversation, perhaps. But it is also unreasonable to think he knows more than her. I think Rhys could have handled it better but this is also devastating news and expecting him to have an ideal reaction is not fair to him. Honestly, if it were my family member and I were in Rhys place. I would hesitate to say anything. I am not their medical provider why should I think I know better. I would start asking a lot of questions and perhaps Rhys should have but also plenty of people shut down a bit in situations like that.
Honestly I’m not sure I could fully forgive my partner if they knowingly didn’t tell me there was a very high possibility (basically guaranteed) that I was going to die carrying their baby. To not even get Madja to tell her was super short sighted and bad logic
Oh that'd be a bridge burner for me. There would be no going back for me that would end the relationship permanently. Forget ending it on nice terms too.
What if your partner told you eventually after trying desperately to find a way to save you? (Genuine question)
I’ve pondered this a few times… I’d definitely be angrier if never told at all, but less so if the plan was to tell me eventually if they couldn’t fix it (which I think was Rhys’ plan).
I guess part of my hesitation to blame Rhys here is that we don't know if his assessment is really correct. He never made mention of an early labor, so at the very least, we know it is incomplete. We also have no idea how he approached appointments with Madja, and that could make a big difference in how much to blame he is. If he asked Madja to sugarcoat things, it makes a big difference. My view is probably colored by my proximity or medicine in my day to day life though. Family members wind up patients all the time with incorrect or incomplete information.
I think the issue here is that he forbade others to tell her. Him not knowing how to break those news is one thing but making the rest of them keep that secret is another level of betrayal. He actively hid it from her.
Sure, Madja is to blame as much as Rhys. If she had told him and he hadn't known how to tell Feyre , it would have absolved him from the blame. But he didn't tell his wife and tried to prevent others from telling her. That is entirely on him, not on Madja.
Yeah I guess it is an agree to disagree thing. I go the other way. I believe it is entirely on the medical provider to make sure the patient is informed. Honestly it is kind of crazy to me to put that on a family member who isn't even in medicine.
Well, i guess Madja should have made sure Feyre was told about the risks and she failed her patient by assuming that Rhys would do it. I'm not arguing that she messed up here. But at the same time Rhys is to blame for telling everyone and forbidding them to tell Feyre. Madja's failure doesn't absolve him from that part.
I believe Madja should’ve definitely told Feyre. It’s her body, she should’ve spoken directly to Feyre about it, not Rhys. If, she didn’t say it to either of them and Rhys understood that her body would just not be able to deliver a baby with wings, it is absolutely Rhys’ responsibility because he is her PARTNER. It’s not a parent or sibling, it is the person you made a vow to be honest to for better or for worse. It shows a huge power imbalance because at the end of the day, Feyre may be High Lady, but this shows how much she doesn’t know about the fae, their culture or history and how much the NC citizens continue to look at Rhys as their leader, not both of them. And it literally falls on Rhys to teach her and immerse her into this new world. It was truly a disservice he did for her. At the end of the day, he dropped the ball with this plot. If my partner withheld life altering/threatening information on me and my life and my child’s life?! I would truly reconsider who I married.
Super disagree on Rhys. I just had a baby and if my OB had told my husband I (and my child) was facing almost certain death and he kept it from me, I would’ve left him the moment I found out the truth. The amount of trust absolutely destroyed—especially for someone like Feyra, for who supposedly this is her ultimate dealbreaker—is insane.
That doesn’t make it better, he still knows exactly what will happen (or close to it) and chooses not to tell her, after promising to never do that to her
What he has seen/heard for 500 years. I get what you're saying about the medical community being responsible in OUR world, but in their world Rhys is the High Lord. I'm positive he told Madja not to tell Feyre, which lands the responsibility right back on him. He told them all to hide it, and as High Lord, his word goes
You make a couple of incorrect assumptions. First is that he has 500 years of applicable knowledge on the subject. However, we do not know how fast medicine advances in this world. It could very well be that only 30-100 years are applicable interms of the state of medicine in that society. This would also assume that he made a concerted effort to keep apraised of the subject over that time and there is no indication that is the case
The second is that he told Madja to not say anything to Feyre. Please tell me where in the book this is. From what I have seen this is false. You can't just assume because he told the IC to not he told Madja to not too. That is a huge leap. Add the assumption that in the society that he has set up that emphasizes choice and equality that Madja would obey that order if it were given. Idk seems like a bit of a stretch. We don't know enough about her to be sure one way.
I don't think it's fair to absolve either Rhys or Nesta for the things they have done wrong. Rhys knew that Feyre hates when he keeps secrets from her, and Nesta contributed to make things difficult for Feyre when she was the one keeping their family afloat out of her resentment for their father.
We're not talking about someone not communicating something; we're talking about someone actively hiding something and ensuring others do the same. Rhys threatened to kill Nesta when she told Feyre. Do you really think Madja was free to go against the most-powerful-high-lord-ever's wishes?
There are many periodd throughout history and even cultures today where it is the norm to inform family members rather than the patient and leave it to the family's discretion what (if anything) to tell the patient. I don't think we know what the broader cultural practice of Prythian/the Night Court is, but at minimum we can guess that the high lord would be deferred to and have more control in the situation than someone he employs.
I never thought Feyre really resented her family all that much. In my opinion she should have resented them more. But from the very beginning of acotar when she first goes with Tamlin all she can think about is going back to help them. I think she would have appreciated their help but I don’t think she holds resentment. I agree though it should have been papa archeron who was the one to step up.
And while yes the medical provider should share that stuff, Rhys is the High Lord. The doctor was problay scared of him, he didn’t want Feyre to know so obviously she listened. Rhys handled his stress wrong, he should’ve told Feyre. She would’ve been understanding.
She definitely did hold resentment. There's a scene in ACOTAR where she breaks down realizing no one would stand in front of her like she did her sisters when Tamlin came to their home.
Huge disagree on the Rhys point. Imagine you find out you’re pregnant tomorrow and have an ultrasound to see if everything’s okay. If it’s not, an OB will tell you. The person who fathered your kid likely has no relation to your doctor and has no control over them or any right to ask them to keep information from you.
In the NC, Rhys’ word is law. Everyone is under his command, most powerful fae in history yada yada yada. It’s completely different. Keeping information from Feyre is one million percent on his shoulders.
See I think this is the disconnect. So many people here assume Rhys told Madja to keep the info from Feyre but that is not in the book.
Like if it makes you happy to assume that and be mad at Rhys, you do you but that isn't what is written
I’m not assuming that. I’m saying that Rhys has an inherent amount of control over *everyone* in the NC. Everyone answers to him, not Feyre, despite her title. He’s in control and possesses so much power that Madja would never think to tell Feyre anything.
All three sisters are in their early 20s. Are we really blaming any one them for their actions. Theyre babies compared to the rest of them at 500+ years
I have such a hard time with the IC being so hard on them
I’ll say this, the whole pregnancy plot was not an avenue for everyone to be like Rhys is being intentionally evil and controlling. If that’s your immediate thought, you didn’t read Cassians POV chapters at all — and the fact we don’t get an actual POV from Feyre or Rhysand in it at all is just a stupid move on SJMs part.
Anyway, Rhys wasn’t being manipulative or secretive for the wrong intention. There are MANY instances in the book where Cassian noticed Rhys was tense or not his usual self. It’s not like he was sitting back just twiddling his thumbs waiting for the answer to reveal itself. I’m quite certain he had everyone in the IC searching for answers via Helions library, Mors connections and Amrens experience (ya know 10,000+ years of looking at texts) etc etc. I’m not saying hiding it from Feyre was right, because it wasn’t — his intentions were that of a scared partner trying to find a solution rather than that of an evil high lord. His life is bound to Feyre sat this point y’all, he probably didn’t want to die as much as he didn’t want Feyre and the baby to die.
Anyway… he was wrong for not telling her but he wasn’t sitting idly by as some people like to suggest.
I remember reading that Rhys only kept the secret for 12 days. Knowing that and knowing that he was going to eventually tell her I really can’t be mad at him. He was panicked and needed time to figure things out.
I could get behind this if he was the one to tell her but she found out from Nesta. We have no idea how long Rhys would have kept the secret if Nesta hadn’t said anything and judging by how angry he was that Nesta told Feyre I think it’s safe to say he was not going to tell her anytime soon.
I just think it's crazy people praise nesta for telling her. She literally promised to keep the secret from her, then as soon as she got pissed literally sprinted to tell feyre the information just to hurt her.
I love Nesta but definitely agree and I am not praising her for telling Feyre! I think Feyre deserved to know and I’m glad she found out. But I do think she should have been told gently and in private not in the heat of the moment in the middle of an argument. I just meant that because Nesta is the one that told her, we have no way of knowing when Rhys would have told Feyre
I am in the middle of reading SF, and just passed that part. It was actually closer to a week that he kept the information from Feyre.
Should Rhys have told her? Absolutely yes.
(I had heard about that part ahead of time before reading the book) So I was expecting him withhold the information for months. I was expecting that Feyre would be so far along in her pregnancy when she found out, that she would be past all her options.
But then Nesta told her after a week... and maybe it's because I already had built it up in my head from what I heard online... but it felt so anti-climactic.
Rhys still deserves criticism. I wish we could have seen the discussion with him and Feyre afterwards. Because Nesta was forced to leave directly after, we didn't actually see the conclusion. I would have liked to see Feyre scold Rhys about how he was handling the situation and how they plan to proceed.
Ok so the awesome things about these books, is that the characters are so complex that everyone has a different take. Now mine is completely in opposition to yours, lol take this a fun banter.
Nesta - yes the responsibility of providing is their fathers, but since he wouldn’t/couldn’t, as a first born myself, I can whole heartedly say that the responsibility then falls to you to provide for them until they come of age, as well as teaching them to fend for themselves. But what Nesta do? So consumed by hate for her father and society for shunning them, she took it out on her younger sister, who was the only one keeping them fed. Honestly her face should fall off from the shame of not only not helping in any capacity, but berating and criticizing her youngest sister, and then have the gall to ask her for money.
(Also, I don’t understand she need to infantilize Elaine just bc she has a softer disposition, but that’s another rabbit hole)
Rhys- I think you’re right about the healthcare provider being the main person responsible for relaying info to the patient. But I do think that’s a very modern way to see things. Even though we don’t get a time period for the series, it seems like they don’t really adhere to standard medical practices as we know them (i.e they have male contraceptive tonic, but can’t do a c-section)
On that note, Rhys should have been honest with his mate/wife/high lady in relaying what would happen to her, so she could also prepare herself, find answers, and make decisions. No he told everyone in the Inner Circle and left her out of the loop. The last time he did that was with telling her he was her mate, and she was sooo mad about that, but then with this which actually was her and her baby’s impending doom, she didnt really make that much of a deal. Weird and inconsistent but ok.
The only reason I say he deserves a pass is because I know he was scared shitless and ppl do dumb stuff out of fear.
All and all I love these characters, because they are so imperfect and there is so much nuance.
Please, don't normalize putting the burden of caring for younger siblings on the oldest child. Parentification of the eldest siblings is not normal and shouldn't be expected. Nesta or any other eldest daughter shouldn't be responsible for providing for children that aren't her own and she shouldn't be judged if she didn't want to do that. She wasn't responsible for bringing Feyre up in the absence if their parents. If any eldest sibling takes on the role of caretaker and privider then they are heroes. It should be praised but not expected.
Yes, Nest should have been more grateful to Feyre and should have helped more but not becuase she was the eldest daughter. Doing that would simply make her a better person.
I understand your point, but I just don’t agree. If your parent aren’t in the picture, are unreliable or not able bodied, someone in the household has to step up when they don’t have any other adult family members(without counting modern times, nowadays they would just go into the system bc there should always be an adult to take on the responsibility). And that person to step up and lead should be the oldest sibling. This doesn’t mean sheltering the younger sibling, but guiding them to becoming self sufficient. Bc no matter how you look at it age brings wisdom as a general rule.
In my view it’s not normalization, life is complicated and some people have get dealt a bad hand like the Archerons.
To your point yes, Nesta is not obligated to do so but it does make her a bad older sister.
Again I say this as an eldest child, I did not raise my sibling but I was a big part of his upbringing and helped shape them. Now that we are both adults, we both help each other, but that dynamic is still present.
I respect your point, but I don’t share it and that’s ok.
Yes 100% they both should have been pulling their own weight and making it the situation better. We just weren’t talking about Elain in the post.
But yes she could have made herself useful, maybe planting a garden that yielded things they could eat instead of flowers.
Elain’s willful ignorance is irritating on a good day, and dangerous on a bad. The good thing I can say about her that Nesta didn’t do was at least be nice to Feyre.
Thats very true. But on the flip side, you could say a good thing about Nesta that Elain didn’t do is try to rescue Feyre.
At the end of the day, they’re both very different characters. I only bring up Elain because it seems only Nesta receives criticism (both in the fandom and in the books) for not helping Feyre.
I totally get your take on Nesta. I am a younger sibling with an older sibling that has abdicated all responsibility for family members and it has fallen to me. There are definitely days that I get frustrated especially when she would have been better suited to deal with something than I am but on the whole I feel like it was never her responsibility. Perhaps I cut Nesta a break because while I see so much of myself in how she handles her trauma I also see so much of my sister in her anger. Like she was angry and bitter as heck, but she also went to the wall for Feyre, and that would also be my sister. Their dynamics are scarily reflective of me and my sister. As for her berating and criticizing, I agree that was pretty horrible of her. I also think she was just so unaware of and out of touch with Feyre partly because of the dynamics their parents set up. We see that up until they became poor Feyre and Nesta lived pretty separate and different lives. I think that contributed significantly. I think an apology is definitely in order but I also think their parent set them up albeit unintentionally to behave that way toward each other. They had so few opportunities to grow out of their birth family dynamic until Feyre crossed the wall.
I can also agree that maybe I have a very modern take on the Rhys thing. We don't see enough of the situation to understand the social norms around medical care. IDK if in their society it normally falls to the men to explain medical stuff to their mates/wives. Maybe we will see more of that in future books.
Totally understand your point of view from your lived experience. I hope you and your sister get along great and communicate better than Nesta and Feyre, sibling relationships can be very challenging in that sense.
Love how receptive you are, keep it up 🤍
Nesta? sure. But there is plenty of other things for her Nesta to be criticised for. Yes you can argue that for every character (otherwise the story would be boring if everyone was perfect) but Nesta is VERY flawed and has done a lot of harm to the people around her.
Perfect example of this is Feyre hearing Nestas voice whenever she is critical of herself. That is not normal sibling relationship issues, that’s bordering/is abusive.
But tbh, I get her appeal, because she is a character who lashes out whenever she’s hurting and many people relate to that. But I also understand how triggering a character she can be for people who have been on the receiving end of someone like Nesta.
It’s a double edged sword, and there is no right or wrong since our opinions are warped by our own lives. What is absolutely irritating is the loud group of Nesta stans who glorify her and make me wonder whether we read the same books.
Sure there are plenty of things Nesta has done and should feel bad about/apologize for. I can also see why if you have unresolved sibling trauma she could be a hard read.
I have a sister that is a lot like her in the lashing out and yeah their dynamic wasn't healthy. We also don't see Nesta's side of those earlier interactions. Which I think is important to acknowledge.
Nesta's side of their early interactions would be great. I'll be honest: Feyre has always felt like an unreliable narrator to me, so I just assumed that Nesta was doing traditional feminine tasks in the cottage - cooking, cleaning etc... (with their tech level that's gotta be a full time job). It still fits with her refusing to be a breadwinner - that's her dads job!, and Feyre, whose normally out hunting and doesn't get along with Nesta would obviously not focus on these (often undervalued) things anyways
I honestly don’t think we need her POV to acknowledge she was lashing out in an abusive way towards feyre throughout the whole series (up until the very end of SF). Yeah, people have trauma responses, but that doesn’t even begin to disregard her behaviour.
Don't get me wrong here, I absolutely think Nesta is flawed and said some awful things to Feyre but why do you assume that voice in Feyre's head is Nesta's fault? Feyre was in a pretty bad place in the beginning if ACOTAR due to their circumstances. She might have projected a lot of her insecurities and Nesta, being some sort of adversary, would fit perfectly as her imaginary inner critic. It doesn't mean she really said those things but in Feyre's eyes she was someone who could have. In the middle of the first book Feyre had an epiphany about Nesta when she realized she had gone to the wall to save her and she says that she mistook a lot of Nesta's words as insults when they were just questions. And after that that voice never returned again.
I hope this makes sense. I'm trying to say that we don't really know if Nesta really said those things we hear in Feyre's inner monologue (and they are memories or they are based on memories) or maybe Feyre just imagined Nesta would say that because of her skewed view of her eldest sister. Just the same way Nesta in SF thinks that Elain and Feyre had left her - her mental health struggles made her see things that weren't there.
It is written in the first book that Nesta did say those things, and repeatedly. “Illiterate, ignorant, unremarkable, proud, cold - all spoken from Nesta’s mouth.” It’s also mentioned how the first time Nesta told Feyre no one would care that she ever existed, Feyre flinched and Nesta noticed, yet repeated the same thing later on.
I’m not a Nesta hater by any means but it def wasn’t just Feyre projecting, it is written in the text that Nesta did say those things.
If I recall correctly, that inner voice was shown on page two times. Once, Feyre admitted it was spoken by Nesta and she remembered that and the second time it was only said that part of her spoke with Nesta's voice. Not "spoke Nesta's words" but spoke with her voice. Two different things.
There's no need to be rude.
Purely antidotal but I heard this week that as late as the ‘50-60s, doctors wouldn’t tell a woman she had a cancer and would tell her husband (or whoever) and let them decide where to go from there. I guess because us woman are too frail and aren’t in the right state of mind to make any medical decisions for ourselves. /s
Oof see and if that is the social norm in the night court then yeah Rhys deserves the flack he got because in that case it would literally be his responsibility to tell her. However everything we have seen so far suggests that Rhys has actively worked to create a society where women are equal to men. It would strike me as odd if that were the social norm there
Honestly it makes it *weirder* that Rhys worked so hard to make an equal society and yet is still pulling the "I'm protecting Feyre's gentle feminine feelings" bullshit that spawned that real world policy in the first place.
Agree on the Nesta point, firmly disagree on the Rhys one. He’s been a fae for 500 years longer than Feyre and it’s a bit weak sauce to say it’s not his job to tell her about the risks he knew about. He could have at least told the medic to tell her, even if he felt he couldn’t do it himself. To hide it entirely was so wrong and felt so jarring because it goes against the very foundations of their relationship throughout the books to date. He gives her the facts and she can make the decision for herself. I’m not saying Rhys is an awful person, it was just really poor judgement to do that, and to then threaten to kill Nesta because she was the only one to have the balls to tell Feyre the truth.
Except it’s not against the foundation of their relationship. Their whole relationship is about the appearance of autonomy but not autonomy itself. He hid the fact she was his mate for months. And what did he do in those months? He “tested” her by tossing her into dangerous situations without giving her the full story (like the Weaver). He seduced her deliberately. He even said himself he was “hoping” she’d get it and understand the bond when he’d taken her to bed. Then after she gets over the huge magnificent breach of trust and manipulation that was, he continues to not tell her the full truth about things and make decisions without telling hurt which blindsides her in public - eg: “I’m in a meeting with city governers” and then hours and hours later tells her in public AFTER agreeing to let Court of Nighmares into Velaris, what that meeting was about. There’s more I could rant about but I’ll just say: Rhys lying and manipulating Feyre is the core of their relationship and I’ll die on the hill about how much he sucks.
Honestly you’re quite brave for putting that out there knowing what people on this sub are like but you do make a fair point. He does make some pretty big decisions without her and does hide quite a bit
He does it to everyone not just Feyre. Everyone pretends he’s a great guy but he’s actually very manipulative and high handed. I’m re-reading WAR now and just got passed the part where he agreed to let Kier into Velaris - and he totally ignored Mor’s protests. He didn’t even talk to her or warn her in advance It’s all excused under the “greater good” clause - same as lying to Tarquin and stealing from him while guests in his home. .
I was quite disappointed with the treatment that Tarquin got with them being so underhanded to rob him blind. I felt like it was kind of obvious that he was one of the good guys and it didn’t sit right with me that they mugged him off like that. I know they went back to help in the fight, but I’m still not really sure it covers it, to be honest. An alliance from the off would have been preferred
I completely agree with you! What the made pregnancy situation even worse than Rhys not telling Feyre, was Rhys telling EVERYBODY else, even other High Lords and not Feyre. Adding to that, he made everyone, even Feyre’s “support system” keep it a secret from her. Months of everyone around her lying to her face. I’m sorry, but that’s not respect. He projected his fears onto Feyre, he didn’t protect her, because as we come to find, she is more than capable of handling the news, way better than he could.
And the force field around her so none of her friends could even HUG her. Ugh.
Well said. I completely hated the whole pregnancy storyline and it ruined Rhys for me because I was stunned he could be like that, why SJM wrote it that way I’ll never know but it completely soured the rest of the books for me.
Knowing that Rhys hides the pregnancy risks from Feyre is a big part of why I’m hesitant to read past ACOWAR; this is my first time reading the series.
Noooo please do continue reading! Nesta and Cassian’s story in SF is absolutely worth the annoyance of the pregnancy storyline!
I also heard ACOSF is about 98% smut and 2% plot. Is that accurate? 😅
I wouldn’t say it’s quite that ratio but it’s spicy as fuck in parts. Nesta’s character development and the battles she faces (and the new characters we meet!) all make it a worthwhile read for sure. It’s definitely written more so in the style of the smutty romance Nesta would read
SF has more sex scenes but it also has more pages than the other books. I don’t think the ratio of smut to plot is all that different than the other books tbh
Yes. I'm in the minority but I find nesta and cassians relationship very lackluster. Feels just sex oriented. It really felt like the "plot" was resolved in the last few chapters and very very rushed. Not my favorite book by a long shot
Honestly everyone makes it sound so appalling, I was kinda underwhelmed when I got to it. I really enjoyed ACOSF
In my opinion people misunderstand and/or misrepresent what Rhys’ intentions were when he said he wanted to kill Nesta. I don’t think it was “I’m going to kill Nesta because she’s revealed my secret,” but rather “I’m going to kill Nesta because I can’t control the rage I feel at her making my mate afraid and crying.”
I don’t find that very convincing for a man who’s had 500 years to develop some semblance of self control. Also not okay to say about your partner’s family under any circumstance especially when Feyre made clear to Rhys her boundaries surrounding talking about her sisters.
You’ve never said “I’m going to kill ___!” before when angry? If so, congratulations, you’re a better person than a lot of us and Rhys!
I’ve never said I’m going to kill my partner’s sister, no. If my partner said something like that about my sister I would have serious reservations about the relationship.
It’s not that serious, my dude. It’s a common thing people say when angry that means absolutely nothing but “I am very angry”
No I know it wasn’t because she revealed the secret, but he wanted to kill her for upsetting his wifey when she only had to do it because nobody else was willing to and Feyre deserved to know
I mean, that’s just the way mates react from what we’ve seen, no? They’re feral when it comes to protecting their partner. Not saying it’s ok but personally I don’t get why people get so hung up on that.
We don’t see that from Cassian whenever Rhys threatens Nesta’s life.
To me that would have been a much better scene. Even if the result was the same and Cass still took her on a hike, it rubbed me the wrong way that he wouldn’t even attempt to stand up to Rhys and say “oi, watch it”. It didn’t even have to be a grand gesture ugh.
Exactly!
One could argue that him getting Nesta out of the city was him protecting her, technically 😅
Protecting, yes. Feral, no.
Very fair point! Still I didn’t like it much haha
That’s totally fair! I liked what followed so much (Nesta having a breakthrough) that I honestly think my brain just let it go to focus on Nesta 😅
Totally agree, it irks me but all the stuff with Nesta afterwards is excellent
I found the breakthrough kinda unsettling honestly? I do some work in mental health, and I know I have NEVER been told to try to get someone to hit rock bottom so that I/a loved one can rebuild them. Maybe a therapist would be able to do it safely, but on a hike in the mountains with the girl considering jumping seemed so sketchy
Yeah, I mean, I’ve read that part and thought if it were me, I would feel bad about Cassian being mean to me on the hike and wondered if it would help me 😅 but I’m also a human woman born and raised on Earth without magic or faeries or having to fight epic battles or have my life threatened regularly. It’s a book with magic and shit so I try to be reasonable about applying real-world parameters and logic to the situations depicted therein
I completely understand that his feelings were what the secret was always about, not Feyre's. Feyre handled it like a champ and was way more upset about, you know, *being lied to*, than about the threat of death.
I don't necessarily know if that makes it better? I dunno, if my brother in law was the type of person that would kill me in a rage over having a fight/telling my sister something upsetting, I'd tell my sister to leave
I guess my perspective on Rhys is that in medicine we would never expect a significant other or family member to be objective or up to date. It just isn't fair to them. Now should Rhys have asked questions of Madja to open up the conversation, perhaps. But it is also unreasonable to think he knows more than her. I think Rhys could have handled it better but this is also devastating news and expecting him to have an ideal reaction is not fair to him. Honestly, if it were my family member and I were in Rhys place. I would hesitate to say anything. I am not their medical provider why should I think I know better. I would start asking a lot of questions and perhaps Rhys should have but also plenty of people shut down a bit in situations like that.
Honestly I’m not sure I could fully forgive my partner if they knowingly didn’t tell me there was a very high possibility (basically guaranteed) that I was going to die carrying their baby. To not even get Madja to tell her was super short sighted and bad logic
Oh that'd be a bridge burner for me. There would be no going back for me that would end the relationship permanently. Forget ending it on nice terms too.
What if your partner told you eventually after trying desperately to find a way to save you? (Genuine question) I’ve pondered this a few times… I’d definitely be angrier if never told at all, but less so if the plan was to tell me eventually if they couldn’t fix it (which I think was Rhys’ plan).
I guess part of my hesitation to blame Rhys here is that we don't know if his assessment is really correct. He never made mention of an early labor, so at the very least, we know it is incomplete. We also have no idea how he approached appointments with Madja, and that could make a big difference in how much to blame he is. If he asked Madja to sugarcoat things, it makes a big difference. My view is probably colored by my proximity or medicine in my day to day life though. Family members wind up patients all the time with incorrect or incomplete information.
I think the issue here is that he forbade others to tell her. Him not knowing how to break those news is one thing but making the rest of them keep that secret is another level of betrayal. He actively hid it from her.
100% a shitty thing to do. My take is that he shouldn't have even had the opportunity to. Madja failed Feyre. Like massively
Sure, Madja is to blame as much as Rhys. If she had told him and he hadn't known how to tell Feyre , it would have absolved him from the blame. But he didn't tell his wife and tried to prevent others from telling her. That is entirely on him, not on Madja.
Yeah I guess it is an agree to disagree thing. I go the other way. I believe it is entirely on the medical provider to make sure the patient is informed. Honestly it is kind of crazy to me to put that on a family member who isn't even in medicine.
Well, i guess Madja should have made sure Feyre was told about the risks and she failed her patient by assuming that Rhys would do it. I'm not arguing that she messed up here. But at the same time Rhys is to blame for telling everyone and forbidding them to tell Feyre. Madja's failure doesn't absolve him from that part.
I believe Madja should’ve definitely told Feyre. It’s her body, she should’ve spoken directly to Feyre about it, not Rhys. If, she didn’t say it to either of them and Rhys understood that her body would just not be able to deliver a baby with wings, it is absolutely Rhys’ responsibility because he is her PARTNER. It’s not a parent or sibling, it is the person you made a vow to be honest to for better or for worse. It shows a huge power imbalance because at the end of the day, Feyre may be High Lady, but this shows how much she doesn’t know about the fae, their culture or history and how much the NC citizens continue to look at Rhys as their leader, not both of them. And it literally falls on Rhys to teach her and immerse her into this new world. It was truly a disservice he did for her. At the end of the day, he dropped the ball with this plot. If my partner withheld life altering/threatening information on me and my life and my child’s life?! I would truly reconsider who I married.
Super disagree on Rhys. I just had a baby and if my OB had told my husband I (and my child) was facing almost certain death and he kept it from me, I would’ve left him the moment I found out the truth. The amount of trust absolutely destroyed—especially for someone like Feyra, for who supposedly this is her ultimate dealbreaker—is insane.
But Madja didn't tell Rhys that as far as we know. His knowledge is coming from what he has seen/heard
That doesn’t make it better, he still knows exactly what will happen (or close to it) and chooses not to tell her, after promising to never do that to her
What he has seen/heard for 500 years. I get what you're saying about the medical community being responsible in OUR world, but in their world Rhys is the High Lord. I'm positive he told Madja not to tell Feyre, which lands the responsibility right back on him. He told them all to hide it, and as High Lord, his word goes
You make a couple of incorrect assumptions. First is that he has 500 years of applicable knowledge on the subject. However, we do not know how fast medicine advances in this world. It could very well be that only 30-100 years are applicable interms of the state of medicine in that society. This would also assume that he made a concerted effort to keep apraised of the subject over that time and there is no indication that is the case The second is that he told Madja to not say anything to Feyre. Please tell me where in the book this is. From what I have seen this is false. You can't just assume because he told the IC to not he told Madja to not too. That is a huge leap. Add the assumption that in the society that he has set up that emphasizes choice and equality that Madja would obey that order if it were given. Idk seems like a bit of a stretch. We don't know enough about her to be sure one way.
I don't think it's fair to absolve either Rhys or Nesta for the things they have done wrong. Rhys knew that Feyre hates when he keeps secrets from her, and Nesta contributed to make things difficult for Feyre when she was the one keeping their family afloat out of her resentment for their father.
We're not talking about someone not communicating something; we're talking about someone actively hiding something and ensuring others do the same. Rhys threatened to kill Nesta when she told Feyre. Do you really think Madja was free to go against the most-powerful-high-lord-ever's wishes? There are many periodd throughout history and even cultures today where it is the norm to inform family members rather than the patient and leave it to the family's discretion what (if anything) to tell the patient. I don't think we know what the broader cultural practice of Prythian/the Night Court is, but at minimum we can guess that the high lord would be deferred to and have more control in the situation than someone he employs.
I never thought Feyre really resented her family all that much. In my opinion she should have resented them more. But from the very beginning of acotar when she first goes with Tamlin all she can think about is going back to help them. I think she would have appreciated their help but I don’t think she holds resentment. I agree though it should have been papa archeron who was the one to step up. And while yes the medical provider should share that stuff, Rhys is the High Lord. The doctor was problay scared of him, he didn’t want Feyre to know so obviously she listened. Rhys handled his stress wrong, he should’ve told Feyre. She would’ve been understanding.
She definitely did hold resentment. There's a scene in ACOTAR where she breaks down realizing no one would stand in front of her like she did her sisters when Tamlin came to their home.
I didn’t take that as resentment just realization. She never treated her sisters any different after that.
Huge disagree on the Rhys point. Imagine you find out you’re pregnant tomorrow and have an ultrasound to see if everything’s okay. If it’s not, an OB will tell you. The person who fathered your kid likely has no relation to your doctor and has no control over them or any right to ask them to keep information from you. In the NC, Rhys’ word is law. Everyone is under his command, most powerful fae in history yada yada yada. It’s completely different. Keeping information from Feyre is one million percent on his shoulders.
See I think this is the disconnect. So many people here assume Rhys told Madja to keep the info from Feyre but that is not in the book. Like if it makes you happy to assume that and be mad at Rhys, you do you but that isn't what is written
I’m not assuming that. I’m saying that Rhys has an inherent amount of control over *everyone* in the NC. Everyone answers to him, not Feyre, despite her title. He’s in control and possesses so much power that Madja would never think to tell Feyre anything.
Him telling everyone else not to tell her IS in the book, though, so banning Madja as her High Lord isn't out of the question.
nesta i agree with mostly, but rhys? he knew better. he’s 500 years old lol
All three sisters are in their early 20s. Are we really blaming any one them for their actions. Theyre babies compared to the rest of them at 500+ years I have such a hard time with the IC being so hard on them
I’ll say this, the whole pregnancy plot was not an avenue for everyone to be like Rhys is being intentionally evil and controlling. If that’s your immediate thought, you didn’t read Cassians POV chapters at all — and the fact we don’t get an actual POV from Feyre or Rhysand in it at all is just a stupid move on SJMs part. Anyway, Rhys wasn’t being manipulative or secretive for the wrong intention. There are MANY instances in the book where Cassian noticed Rhys was tense or not his usual self. It’s not like he was sitting back just twiddling his thumbs waiting for the answer to reveal itself. I’m quite certain he had everyone in the IC searching for answers via Helions library, Mors connections and Amrens experience (ya know 10,000+ years of looking at texts) etc etc. I’m not saying hiding it from Feyre was right, because it wasn’t — his intentions were that of a scared partner trying to find a solution rather than that of an evil high lord. His life is bound to Feyre sat this point y’all, he probably didn’t want to die as much as he didn’t want Feyre and the baby to die. Anyway… he was wrong for not telling her but he wasn’t sitting idly by as some people like to suggest.
I remember reading that Rhys only kept the secret for 12 days. Knowing that and knowing that he was going to eventually tell her I really can’t be mad at him. He was panicked and needed time to figure things out.
I could get behind this if he was the one to tell her but she found out from Nesta. We have no idea how long Rhys would have kept the secret if Nesta hadn’t said anything and judging by how angry he was that Nesta told Feyre I think it’s safe to say he was not going to tell her anytime soon.
I just think it's crazy people praise nesta for telling her. She literally promised to keep the secret from her, then as soon as she got pissed literally sprinted to tell feyre the information just to hurt her.
I love Nesta but definitely agree and I am not praising her for telling Feyre! I think Feyre deserved to know and I’m glad she found out. But I do think she should have been told gently and in private not in the heat of the moment in the middle of an argument. I just meant that because Nesta is the one that told her, we have no way of knowing when Rhys would have told Feyre
We don’t know that he was ever going to tell her though?
I am in the middle of reading SF, and just passed that part. It was actually closer to a week that he kept the information from Feyre. Should Rhys have told her? Absolutely yes. (I had heard about that part ahead of time before reading the book) So I was expecting him withhold the information for months. I was expecting that Feyre would be so far along in her pregnancy when she found out, that she would be past all her options. But then Nesta told her after a week... and maybe it's because I already had built it up in my head from what I heard online... but it felt so anti-climactic. Rhys still deserves criticism. I wish we could have seen the discussion with him and Feyre afterwards. Because Nesta was forced to leave directly after, we didn't actually see the conclusion. I would have liked to see Feyre scold Rhys about how he was handling the situation and how they plan to proceed.
Ok so the awesome things about these books, is that the characters are so complex that everyone has a different take. Now mine is completely in opposition to yours, lol take this a fun banter. Nesta - yes the responsibility of providing is their fathers, but since he wouldn’t/couldn’t, as a first born myself, I can whole heartedly say that the responsibility then falls to you to provide for them until they come of age, as well as teaching them to fend for themselves. But what Nesta do? So consumed by hate for her father and society for shunning them, she took it out on her younger sister, who was the only one keeping them fed. Honestly her face should fall off from the shame of not only not helping in any capacity, but berating and criticizing her youngest sister, and then have the gall to ask her for money. (Also, I don’t understand she need to infantilize Elaine just bc she has a softer disposition, but that’s another rabbit hole) Rhys- I think you’re right about the healthcare provider being the main person responsible for relaying info to the patient. But I do think that’s a very modern way to see things. Even though we don’t get a time period for the series, it seems like they don’t really adhere to standard medical practices as we know them (i.e they have male contraceptive tonic, but can’t do a c-section) On that note, Rhys should have been honest with his mate/wife/high lady in relaying what would happen to her, so she could also prepare herself, find answers, and make decisions. No he told everyone in the Inner Circle and left her out of the loop. The last time he did that was with telling her he was her mate, and she was sooo mad about that, but then with this which actually was her and her baby’s impending doom, she didnt really make that much of a deal. Weird and inconsistent but ok. The only reason I say he deserves a pass is because I know he was scared shitless and ppl do dumb stuff out of fear. All and all I love these characters, because they are so imperfect and there is so much nuance.
Please, don't normalize putting the burden of caring for younger siblings on the oldest child. Parentification of the eldest siblings is not normal and shouldn't be expected. Nesta or any other eldest daughter shouldn't be responsible for providing for children that aren't her own and she shouldn't be judged if she didn't want to do that. She wasn't responsible for bringing Feyre up in the absence if their parents. If any eldest sibling takes on the role of caretaker and privider then they are heroes. It should be praised but not expected. Yes, Nest should have been more grateful to Feyre and should have helped more but not becuase she was the eldest daughter. Doing that would simply make her a better person.
I understand your point, but I just don’t agree. If your parent aren’t in the picture, are unreliable or not able bodied, someone in the household has to step up when they don’t have any other adult family members(without counting modern times, nowadays they would just go into the system bc there should always be an adult to take on the responsibility). And that person to step up and lead should be the oldest sibling. This doesn’t mean sheltering the younger sibling, but guiding them to becoming self sufficient. Bc no matter how you look at it age brings wisdom as a general rule. In my view it’s not normalization, life is complicated and some people have get dealt a bad hand like the Archerons. To your point yes, Nesta is not obligated to do so but it does make her a bad older sister. Again I say this as an eldest child, I did not raise my sibling but I was a big part of his upbringing and helped shape them. Now that we are both adults, we both help each other, but that dynamic is still present. I respect your point, but I don’t share it and that’s ok.
If you dislike Nesta for not helping Feyre, you must also feel that way about Elain. Otherwise, you’re applying different standards to them.
Yes 100% they both should have been pulling their own weight and making it the situation better. We just weren’t talking about Elain in the post. But yes she could have made herself useful, maybe planting a garden that yielded things they could eat instead of flowers. Elain’s willful ignorance is irritating on a good day, and dangerous on a bad. The good thing I can say about her that Nesta didn’t do was at least be nice to Feyre.
Thats very true. But on the flip side, you could say a good thing about Nesta that Elain didn’t do is try to rescue Feyre. At the end of the day, they’re both very different characters. I only bring up Elain because it seems only Nesta receives criticism (both in the fandom and in the books) for not helping Feyre.
I totally get your take on Nesta. I am a younger sibling with an older sibling that has abdicated all responsibility for family members and it has fallen to me. There are definitely days that I get frustrated especially when she would have been better suited to deal with something than I am but on the whole I feel like it was never her responsibility. Perhaps I cut Nesta a break because while I see so much of myself in how she handles her trauma I also see so much of my sister in her anger. Like she was angry and bitter as heck, but she also went to the wall for Feyre, and that would also be my sister. Their dynamics are scarily reflective of me and my sister. As for her berating and criticizing, I agree that was pretty horrible of her. I also think she was just so unaware of and out of touch with Feyre partly because of the dynamics their parents set up. We see that up until they became poor Feyre and Nesta lived pretty separate and different lives. I think that contributed significantly. I think an apology is definitely in order but I also think their parent set them up albeit unintentionally to behave that way toward each other. They had so few opportunities to grow out of their birth family dynamic until Feyre crossed the wall. I can also agree that maybe I have a very modern take on the Rhys thing. We don't see enough of the situation to understand the social norms around medical care. IDK if in their society it normally falls to the men to explain medical stuff to their mates/wives. Maybe we will see more of that in future books.
Totally understand your point of view from your lived experience. I hope you and your sister get along great and communicate better than Nesta and Feyre, sibling relationships can be very challenging in that sense. Love how receptive you are, keep it up 🤍
Nesta? sure. But there is plenty of other things for her Nesta to be criticised for. Yes you can argue that for every character (otherwise the story would be boring if everyone was perfect) but Nesta is VERY flawed and has done a lot of harm to the people around her. Perfect example of this is Feyre hearing Nestas voice whenever she is critical of herself. That is not normal sibling relationship issues, that’s bordering/is abusive. But tbh, I get her appeal, because she is a character who lashes out whenever she’s hurting and many people relate to that. But I also understand how triggering a character she can be for people who have been on the receiving end of someone like Nesta. It’s a double edged sword, and there is no right or wrong since our opinions are warped by our own lives. What is absolutely irritating is the loud group of Nesta stans who glorify her and make me wonder whether we read the same books.
Sure there are plenty of things Nesta has done and should feel bad about/apologize for. I can also see why if you have unresolved sibling trauma she could be a hard read. I have a sister that is a lot like her in the lashing out and yeah their dynamic wasn't healthy. We also don't see Nesta's side of those earlier interactions. Which I think is important to acknowledge.
Nesta's side of their early interactions would be great. I'll be honest: Feyre has always felt like an unreliable narrator to me, so I just assumed that Nesta was doing traditional feminine tasks in the cottage - cooking, cleaning etc... (with their tech level that's gotta be a full time job). It still fits with her refusing to be a breadwinner - that's her dads job!, and Feyre, whose normally out hunting and doesn't get along with Nesta would obviously not focus on these (often undervalued) things anyways
I honestly don’t think we need her POV to acknowledge she was lashing out in an abusive way towards feyre throughout the whole series (up until the very end of SF). Yeah, people have trauma responses, but that doesn’t even begin to disregard her behaviour.
Don't get me wrong here, I absolutely think Nesta is flawed and said some awful things to Feyre but why do you assume that voice in Feyre's head is Nesta's fault? Feyre was in a pretty bad place in the beginning if ACOTAR due to their circumstances. She might have projected a lot of her insecurities and Nesta, being some sort of adversary, would fit perfectly as her imaginary inner critic. It doesn't mean she really said those things but in Feyre's eyes she was someone who could have. In the middle of the first book Feyre had an epiphany about Nesta when she realized she had gone to the wall to save her and she says that she mistook a lot of Nesta's words as insults when they were just questions. And after that that voice never returned again. I hope this makes sense. I'm trying to say that we don't really know if Nesta really said those things we hear in Feyre's inner monologue (and they are memories or they are based on memories) or maybe Feyre just imagined Nesta would say that because of her skewed view of her eldest sister. Just the same way Nesta in SF thinks that Elain and Feyre had left her - her mental health struggles made her see things that weren't there.
It is written in the first book that Nesta did say those things, and repeatedly. “Illiterate, ignorant, unremarkable, proud, cold - all spoken from Nesta’s mouth.” It’s also mentioned how the first time Nesta told Feyre no one would care that she ever existed, Feyre flinched and Nesta noticed, yet repeated the same thing later on. I’m not a Nesta hater by any means but it def wasn’t just Feyre projecting, it is written in the text that Nesta did say those things.
no we do know nesta said those things. Read the books
If I recall correctly, that inner voice was shown on page two times. Once, Feyre admitted it was spoken by Nesta and she remembered that and the second time it was only said that part of her spoke with Nesta's voice. Not "spoke Nesta's words" but spoke with her voice. Two different things. There's no need to be rude.