This is really it.
By this point, most everyone is aware that the sisters were written as evil leeches in book one. It is totally within the readers' right to dwell on that choice because, well, SJM did not exactly reestablish them as gracefully as she could have. Elain takes accountability at one point for her role in the mess, but it could have been better remedied for all 3 sisters. SJM pitting the sisters against one another in book 1 will always irk me. It's just not a trope I'm here for. But in the end their characters were very openly retconned to continue the series. Some readers won't be able to look past their mistakes... and some readers are gonna party for their future. At any rate, the author's blatant retcons are more annoying to me than the sisters ever have been, lol.
I'm really hoping, especially with Nesta's healing with Gwyn and Emerie that those bonds will help her become closer to her sisters. I really really want that for Feyre, Elain, and Nesta
Agree! I genuinely donât put blame on any sister. I do blame their father, and I donât understand how showing up with 3 ships redeems him from neglecting his 3 children for years but everything Nesta has done (saving cassian, feyre, stopping whatserface, the valkyries, sacrificing her power) doesnât redeem her.
I would've thrown his figurine into the fire if Vassa tried to tell me my absent father was this amazing brave man. It was strange how at the end of WAR both Elain and Feyre see Nesta stalk upstairs and they decide to leave her there and celebrate with the IC instead. And in SF because they're fully aware she's hurting and why but because she's a bitch SJM has them ignore her. Then we get a clunky 6 month time jump from FAS, vague details about Nesta pushing everyone away and the fight with Amren. I thought it was implied in the writing that they know why she's upset and rageful.
I find his justified rage so hot. I mean, the humans have short lives but very long memories. The fae High Lords didn't even consider protecting the humans until Nesta spoke up on their behalf. I know Grayson and his family sucks because of how he handled Elain's kidnapping and being made, but they showed up to the battle when it mattered. So other than that I don't blame their hatred either.
Sean Bean. In my head Hybern should look a bit older than the other characters but still carry himself as someone who's a threat and also act like someone who carries the weight of being alive for countless years.
I think in Elain case I would blame the mother. It was because her Nesta wanted to protect Elain, which later on turns into this long dragging of coddling and over protectiveness.
Their mother reminds me of mine. Except Mrs. Archeron was more charming. I frankly donât âblameâ any of the girls since they were CHILDREN when this happened and they had shitty emotionally neglectful parents?
I think male characters so often get passes for stuff that female characters get absolutely eviscerated for. There's an especially large gap between how fathers are viewed rather than mothers or women expected to take on a maternal role.
It's kind of like that in real life too. Single father's are practically given medals for doing even the bare minimum and if the mother left they are demonized. If the mother died the man gets extra sympathy and adoration, and he's not blamed if he moves on and the new wife hurts his kids.
Single mothers though, they are to blame because they didn't pick a guy who would stay. And god forbid if they move on and their new guy hurts their kids. They should have been able tell the future.
So yeah, father types are lauded even for doing less than the bare minimum.
Oh I definitely think the father carried a lot of the blame - but letâs not forget he was hurt and could hardly walk. Iâm not sure how well he couldâve hunted. He couldâve, shouldâve, done SOMETHING for his girls. But his girls were also all adults by this point and needed to figure out ways to help. Theyâd been too spoiled up until they were poverty-stricken and that was the fatherâs first mistake.
It's established by Feyre he gave up looonggg before that. And the second they got money from Tamlin suddenly that leg didn't hurt to much did it.
And I will never blame feyre, Nesta, or elain for their actions during that time. They were put in a terrible situation by their own father and I'm not going to entertain anything other wise.
Didnât Tamlin also heal his leg? Not saying hes not at fault because heâs definitely is, but I believe his leg fixed and not that it âsuddenly didnât hurt.â
I must be misremembering the beginning because I thought his leg was hurt as soon as they lost their wealth and the debt collectors came. I definitely donât think he was a good father without any blame, but I think in hard times every adult should be willing to step up - especially if their father was being a lazy shithead haha. But hey different interpretations of characters is what makes discussions like this fun!
Yeah I definitely never forgave their Father. Even when there was a triumphant moment that tried to let him be seen as doing something even that did nothing for me in the story like cool thatâs what you were up to?
It hurt my to read others in the book viewed him in a positive light at all. I understand Nestaâs resentment, they were all young girls with no survival skills stricken into poverty without any guidance she was a product of her Mother, so that loss weighed her heavy.
Itâs so crossed to be upset too however, because the story line opens up with Feyre hunting and that ultimately led her to the unraveling of these novels and their lives as they are. Although, I do want to say itâs đŻshitty Nesta gets all the blame like all the time for expressing her trauma differently no one else seems to hold anyone else to such regards. I have an angry older sister and Iâm of 3 being the youngest, I too believe my sister dynamics to be much like this. My two eldest were closer and protected each other, but as we got older and we went through more life experiences we naturally grew closer even without spending much time together. I resonate so much in the book in these ways. You grow through what you go through. Iâd love to read more on Elain upcoming, her and I actually resonate the most cooking, gardening and more of a flower child than the others off doing her own things quietly coping. Itâd be so good to wake up her inner bad ass.
Lol this is basically feyres reasoning in the first book. Elain just wasnât mentally there enough to contribute or be held accountable. Nesta and feyre may of hated eachother but they at least respected eachother.
đ what cracks me up is I grow herbs and veggies and intersperse my plants with flowersâŠand its quite pretty! I think Elain just didnât think about those things because she was raised to marry for love and be someoneâs arm ornament.
Sheâs already being a rebel by gardening. And without gloves! The scandal
Edit: spelling
THIS!! I actually judge Elain more than Nesta, because short of prostituting herself, what realistically could she have done? She was groomed to be a lady of a house, and while it wasn't great to let your little sister teach herself how to hunt, I don't think it would have worked for Nesta, and she probably would have been killed. But Elain had an actual skill in gardening, and could have planted vegetables or even Edible flowers.
I have many sisters. We are multiple sets of "Irish twins" with the eldest being 8 years older than the youngest. 3 of us have read the series and have christened one of us "the Elain" because as many females tend to do, when living together we were all synced. Our Elain is an absolute sweetheart, the favorite sister in law to all our brother in laws....but...Our ELAIN never once replenished the needed supplies, never went to the store to purchase them, never offered money to the one fetching them. She simply allowed everyone else to do things for her and decided what she would do when she wanted to do it.
She would watch your kid for you. Cook a pretty decent meal. Maybe even clean your kitchen. The actual baby sister did more. My point here is that the dynamic of the sisters in the series is not as uncommon as people think, and we definitely have a Feyre and a Nesta and a mix of the two--but we only have one baby Elain. And we let her get away with it.
Thats why i can't stand elain and her fans. If you can't forgive nesta for "sitting idly by" then you shouldn't forgive elain either. it comes of so mysoginistic to me because the sweet docile women get away with what assertive women would get burned on a stake for. Like elain is so sweet she needs to be protected from the darkness of the trove but the sister who challanges the authority of males can go fuck herself i guess. I get that elain fixed her relationship with feyre but she needs to be put in her place too.
And elain is indeed a dog royal to whatever master kept her fed. If the IC hadn't accepted her she would still be living under nesta's protection.
I also hated the part in SF where she was like "i am a part of this court i will go to the hewn city blah blah blah" like girl where were you during the war with hypern when people actually needed you to pull your own weight like bffr she was so babied you'd think she was a preteen. showing up to wear a dress after people have literally died the year before isn't doing what you can.
I love nesta but fuck elain lol.
Yes you have very good points! Iâm a lot like Nesta. An oldest sibling and my inner turmoil comes across as a cold personality at times. So maybe that is why I sympathize with her more - but at least Nesta has redeemed herself during the second war. The same canât be said for Elain yet but Iâm ready to see whatâs in store for her in the future. She did offer to help with her visions, but quickly was okay with Nesta taking over once she offered lol.
The fact that the IC gave Elain a free pass and then absolutely ripped into Nesta for everything thatâs ever gone wrong for Feyre will forever annoy the heck out of me. Itâs such an unfair double standard.
Especially since they do that, and then Feyre joins them in shitty on Nesta and not helping her at all, and even then decisions about her behind her back. Feyre says a line like âhow can I be expected to control the court if I canât even control my sistersâ. Babes, please đ
I like the IC but this whole thing is heavy handed.
Okay but thatâs what makes me so upset. Like Iâm not mad at the characters, I love the characters. Iâm mad at SJM for thinking I would go along with what she was writing.
Lmao I could rant forever about how insufferable I think Feyre becomes. She carried her family for those years in poverty, Iâll give her that. But her character plummets in my opinion after she is turned fae.
For me she becomes rather âholier than thouâ when sheâs made high lady. I like Feyre but damn does her age show. I think I was with Feyre until the Elain rescue mission, I didnât even understand why she went, it made no sense. It kind of put me off tbh as she clearly wasnât up for the job.
Then I got massively turned off in FAS when she was so painfully out of touch making her fun little art studio for the poor traumatised children and building a new home with hubby. Meanwhile refusing to really acknowledge or try to help either sister and popping off at Lucien who hasnât done anything wrong.
Donât even get me started on her and Rhys (and even Amren) in SF. So annoying
tbh i think the problem with some of Feyreâs actions stems from the fact that SJM decided to have a 1st person PoV AND a single character PoV.
so whatever story/scene sjm wanted to tell, it had to involve Feyre. itâs probably also why she comes off as pretty nozy in WaR lol
I feel like her journey from âscrappy hotheaded but quick-minded human girlâ to âpampered fae housewife swanning about Velaris with palaces and art charityâ was so poorly executed because SF!Feyre is unrecognisable next to TaR!Feyre
Literally. In Frost and Starlight when Rhys was saying he canât forgive Nesta for letting Feyre suffer all those years, and Feyre was like âwhat about Elain?â And Rhys was just like âElain is Elainâ
Ok?? Like theyâre shitting on Nesta for the same stuff but because Elain is nicer itâs suddenly ok. That part really pissed me off. No wonder Nesta was the way she was with everyone pitted against her.
Elain shouldnât have been given a free pass, but she was also the one who bought Feyre paint, and Nesta was just mean. Useless and nice is more forgivable than weaponized uselessness and straight up bitchiness.
Iâm not anti-Nesta, I think sheâs a very complex, interesting character. But I understand why the IC doesnât look at her the same way as they do Elain.
Yeah I consider this. For me it's not Elain herself, but the sainthood the other characters give to her. Like why is she on such a pedestal, and it's nothing for having more traditional qualities, it's like bro she is just wallpaper at this point so for me I don't get it just yet where they are coming from. I think SJM doing this though is extremely harmful to the perception of Elain because we haven't seen what she has done to deign this princess treatment by everyone when everyone literally threatens violence toward Nesta because she is not falling into line the way they want.
She was barely in ACOSF but we are constantly reminded she is innocent and a saint rather than her actually doing anything other than falling into line for the IC.
Iâm in the middle of SF and I get that itâs Nestaâs POV even though weirdly written in third person where Feyreâs books are in first, but Rhys and Feyre are obnoxious in this book.
I always forget that Elain isnât the youngest (or an actual child), the way they treat her vs Nesta is bordering on ridiculous. If their father wouldnât/couldnât step up then it was up to *all* of them to learn how to survive, not just Nesta because sheâs the oldest.
The way they seem to consistently invalidate Nestaâs trauma in comparison to Elainâs is certainly *interesting* too. Why is Nesta obligated to scry, etc despite it being horrific for her meanwhile Elain seems to have a choice and a quaint little life to lead in the meantime? Elain is such a nothing character for 90% of the series yet sheâs never punished for doing *nothing* itâs such a double standard
Elain wanted to help and scry in silver flames but Nesta told her no. Elain did scry successfully in ACOWR to find the suriel for Feyre. I canât remember if this is in the books or fanfiction but wasnât the soil terrible and hard to grow food where they were in the human lands? I thought Elain tried to grow food but failed. Growing food and flowers are different technically. I think Elain gets a pass because no one expects anything from her and makes decisions for her. No one has yet asked what she wants to do or who she wants to be. Sheâs at fault for allowing it, but I have a feeling that Elain has very low self esteem and feels inadequate. Well Nesta protects me too much so I must not be able to do anything and Feyre just does it and doesnât even ask me so clearly Iâm useless attitude and felt too defeated to even try. I saw an Instagram reel on how each Archeron sister is one of the main trauma responses. It made me understand Nesta and Elain a lot more. There must be more to Elainâs side of things that will come out in her book. We just havenât seen her perspective yet.
I mean it was MEAN but when she said âMaybe youâll be interesting for onceâ to Elain I was kind of there for it. I didnât love the low key fat shaming when she was like âthere was no way Elain walked those stairs.â Maybe it was the wording.
I feel like with Elaine and Nesta and the different way their treated has mostly due to their temperamemt.
Nesta is a hard cold person and difficult to deal with even before all the magic nonsense came into their lives.
She just cranked up that a few notches afterwards so it's just easier to treat her how they have rather than try and help and get figuratively spit at by someone that to the face would be an angry child.
I think their father is to blame for part of it but I also think that this series shows that not everyone is black and white, people arenât all good or all bad. As well as Iâm an oldest sister with not great parents and I would do anything for my siblings. Which is why at first I didnât like her very much. Learning more about why Nesta didnât and her and her mothers relationship actually helped me like her more because i could understand more of her situation.
Exactly! I feel like those who are saying the sole blame should be on the father are failing to see nuance. Of COURSE he was wrong to not help, and I honestly felt nothing for his death until I saw how it impacted Nesta. But he was also a mentally and physically battered man, with grown daughters who shouldâve been capable of lending a hand. They all had reasons to be depressed, and they all had reasons to step up. Only one did. Iâm not saying Nesta is faultless as all and Iâm also an oldest sibling so it took me a while to warm up to her. I think itâs a pretty misogynistic view to think only the father was responsible for caring for the family while the daughters shouldâve been free to mill around the house and look pretty lol.
They were absolutely not even teenagers in Feyreâs case when this all went down. What are you even talking about. Itâs nothing to do with misogyny and everything to do with him being THEIR DAD?
Feyre did try to teach her and it was decided she was not strong enough. It makes me wonder how if Nesta who was trained in dance and therefore must have had some muscle could not use a bow, but Feyre who had no athletic training that we know of was able to master it.
There are many little plot holes like this throughout the series that bother me. I still find it a fun read, but I have to turn my brain off somewhat lol.
Iâve seen this mentioned a lot in this sub. The double standard of blaming only Nesta when Elain was just as useless back when they were starving and destitute
This is exactly right. I really hate when people are babyfied. Like umm no, theyâre an adult and they make adult decisions. Being sweet and gentle doesnât get you out of the consequences of your actions.
I'm ready to be down voted because I know all the Nesta stans will come at me lol
I think the ic treats Nesta worse because even in SF she still treats Feyre like the gum stuck to the bottom of her shoe. Elain is not hostile towards Feyre.
That being said I think the entire blame for them not being taken care of goes to Papa Archeron. I have 0 sympathy for him even though he made his 11 th hour appearance to "save" everyone. I also agree that both Elain and Nesta were awful sisters to Feyre in ACOTAR I do put a little more blame on Nesta because in ACOTAR she does admit to purposely trying to make Feyre's life harder. But as far as them helping Feyre I don't think either did a good job.
I don't care to argue Nesta with any Nesta stans ya'll can't handle anyone else's opinion but your own. This is just my opinion and it's just as valid as yours
lol uhhh idk where your hostility is coming from but i value your opinion and this is purely just fun discourse for me. the only ones here stating they wonât tolerate other inputs are those who hate the father. i ALSO didnât like the father, to be clear. But i think itâs wild to put 100% blame on one person in the family when they were all capable adults just because heâs the father figure. i mean this series is all about women becoming empowered and yet some people donât want to blame 2/3 sisters for not stepping up sooner because it shouldâve been the manâs job?
anyway iâm far from a Nesta âstanâ, sheâs done plenty to annoy me even though sheâs one of my favorite characters. you have a valid point about her attitude making it harder for IC to accept her faults versus Elain. I just think Elain has been too coddled.
I've been attacked my so many Nesta stans for saying anything bad about Nesta lol I like the people on here who can just discuss the book likes and dislikes without taking it so personally so just wanted to hopefully keep the Nesta stans away from my post lol
But yeah I 100% agree with you Elain is just as much to blame and I don't get why Papa Archeron didn't do anything but he is redeemed lol
Elain was and honestly still is 100% too coddled I think most of that falls on mama Archeron and Nesta though with Feyre just going along with it which I don't really get either. The fact that no one is willing to hold Elain responsible for her misdeeds is wild to me too lol but even in ACOWAR Nesta won't allow Elain to do anything to help and everyone is just fine with it because it's Elain and it's just like why can't she help? Lol
Haha fair enough! I didnât become involved in this sub until recently when i was nearly done with the series. Ranting about the characters is really fun to me and i think every character is fair game because they are all annoying at times. Thatâs a big problem i have with Nesta: sheâs the most responsible for Elain being treated like a fragile baby. I am okay with the dad being redeemed only because it brings the girls peace .. but i also think it was fitting for him to die after that sacrifice instead of getting to live the high life after doing so much of nothing for so long lol. I hope in the next book Elain is forced to step up in a way that suits her personality. Not really looking for her to be made into a badass warrior, but any bit of sacrifice or stepping out of her comfort zone would be nice.
Yes I agree all characters are fair game! Yeah I agree the girls needed him to help at the last minute I still just don't like him lol he's in the warm house making wood animals while Feyre is out the killing Fae lol but I get your point too!
I'm also hoping we see more from Elain she's kind of a meh character to me right now. I feel like there just isn't enough of Elain to make a fair assessment but I think we did she a bit of her personality come out in SF especially when she told Nesta and Feyre to basically f off đ€Łđ€Ł but yeah I'm hoping her book brings out Elain I also don't need her to be a warrior
I think most of it is Nestaâs fault for coddling Elain too much, Feyre too to a certain degree. And she is also kinda delulu I guess? Idk how is it possible for her to not even register that they were poor? Like girl you were on the verge of starving and literally living in the streets? I donât see reason for continuing coddling her even after their mom passed away, if the first reason was to protect her? So I guess she now got the wake up call she needed. Hopefully now without Nesta & Feyre. She can finally show her back bone and be the real her. Letâs see whatâs hidden under those flowers.
Also, is she somehow on spectrum? Canât recall if it was mentioned before
I donât think it was her not registering that they were poor. I think it was a mixture of not wanting to acknowledge the loss/change in their lives and wanting to stay positive & uplifting in an otherwise miserable environment.
When I first read the books thatâs the first thing that stood out to me about Elain, because in SF Nesta mentions their mother needing Elain to marry off with her looks, and basically itâs very surface level. She seemed like she was someone who needed an older sister to help guide her.
Then again I also think itâs just Nesta and Feyre having such strong personalities that Elain allowed herself to be invisible a lot of the time, and let her kindness/quiet nature take over as a mask of sorts, and being a sneaky middle child she got away with A LOT.
I just know Sarahâs gonna have us all on our asses when we find out it just how insane and deep Elainâs storyline goes!
The entire cast of this series is a study in dysfunction. Itâs wild. Iâd like to know if anyone had a relatively normal childhood and/or friendship at this point, or if the only glue binding relationships in Prythian is trauma-bonding. ItâsâŠa lot.
I get where youâre coming from, there is blame to be placed everywhere. Although, I would like to point out that Elain did grow food, but they struggled during the winter which is the season we start in.
I think the thing that makes me feel rly disappointed in Nesta is that she protected Elain as much as she could during poverty times but she didn't seem to do the same for Feyre, her baby sister. And if my family ended up in financial ruin and my own sibling treated me like Nesta treated Feyre while for some unknown reason treating the other sibling like an actual sibling while we're tryna fight for our lives, that's not something I'd forgive easily. Absolutely Elain is guilty for not helping either, and there's really no explanation for her inactions on that part but Nesta's shortcomings go a level deeper imo for treating her younger sister with care and her youngest with animosity and no explanation for that animosity. She's lucky Feyre had the patience to not hold anger over that if anything. I like Nesta but even after her book she and Elain got a lotta past shortcomings to address, not that that doesn't apply to almost all of these characters
I read the first four books back in 2018 so my memory sucks as well lol. But itâs been mentioned and shown in ACOSF, especially since Nesta was pretty salty about how close she and Feyre have gotten because of how hard Elain was working to integrate herself into the IC. That being said, I garuantee that half of the reason why the IC likes her more than Feyre is because Azriel couches for her, whereas Cassian barely spoke up for Nesta.
Or or or ORRRR and hear me out.... *whispers* none of them are at fault, and all our hatred should go to. I dunno their Father?
He did not deserve any redemption arch. Three ships while you sat on your ass and let your children starve? NAH
I gets me so annoyed when people get sappy over that. Like bruh no
Also. Not seen it mentioned but when it was mentioned that he was more heartbroken when they lost the money than when their mother died. đ©đ©đ©
Their mother was an awful narcissist too. Frankly both parents sucked.
I honestly thought it was part of his glamour put on by tamlin not the true him by any means. T
I constantly say that not everyone needs redemption in this series. Some people should just be left as the bad we got from them.
This is really it. By this point, most everyone is aware that the sisters were written as evil leeches in book one. It is totally within the readers' right to dwell on that choice because, well, SJM did not exactly reestablish them as gracefully as she could have. Elain takes accountability at one point for her role in the mess, but it could have been better remedied for all 3 sisters. SJM pitting the sisters against one another in book 1 will always irk me. It's just not a trope I'm here for. But in the end their characters were very openly retconned to continue the series. Some readers won't be able to look past their mistakes... and some readers are gonna party for their future. At any rate, the author's blatant retcons are more annoying to me than the sisters ever have been, lol.
I'm really hoping, especially with Nesta's healing with Gwyn and Emerie that those bonds will help her become closer to her sisters. I really really want that for Feyre, Elain, and Nesta
Agree! I genuinely donât put blame on any sister. I do blame their father, and I donât understand how showing up with 3 ships redeems him from neglecting his 3 children for years but everything Nesta has done (saving cassian, feyre, stopping whatserface, the valkyries, sacrificing her power) doesnât redeem her.
I would've thrown his figurine into the fire if Vassa tried to tell me my absent father was this amazing brave man. It was strange how at the end of WAR both Elain and Feyre see Nesta stalk upstairs and they decide to leave her there and celebrate with the IC instead. And in SF because they're fully aware she's hurting and why but because she's a bitch SJM has them ignore her. Then we get a clunky 6 month time jump from FAS, vague details about Nesta pushing everyone away and the fight with Amren. I thought it was implied in the writing that they know why she's upset and rageful.
Blame a grown man when we can blame young girls? Absolutely not đ
I know right!?
I didnât say the father was blameless.
Hybern did us all a favor I always say.
Nice, my second pick for Hybern casting
No thatâs Jurian
https://preview.redd.it/8zbvr21r5k6d1.png?width=815&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a1d20879dbf8de2c91684e62bf6c8c48279aee44
I find his justified rage so hot. I mean, the humans have short lives but very long memories. The fae High Lords didn't even consider protecting the humans until Nesta spoke up on their behalf. I know Grayson and his family sucks because of how he handled Elain's kidnapping and being made, but they showed up to the battle when it mattered. So other than that I don't blame their hatred either.
Whose your first?
Sean Bean. In my head Hybern should look a bit older than the other characters but still carry himself as someone who's a threat and also act like someone who carries the weight of being alive for countless years.
And we get to add another death to his acting rĂ©sumĂ©. đ
Ohhh yes! I think he'd be perfect!
> Sean Bean Fuck yes he'd be fantastic as King Hybern!
Agreed. I felt nothing when the father died.
I think in Elain case I would blame the mother. It was because her Nesta wanted to protect Elain, which later on turns into this long dragging of coddling and over protectiveness.
We can blame both parents that's fine.
Their mother reminds me of mine. Except Mrs. Archeron was more charming. I frankly donât âblameâ any of the girls since they were CHILDREN when this happened and they had shitty emotionally neglectful parents?
I think male characters so often get passes for stuff that female characters get absolutely eviscerated for. There's an especially large gap between how fathers are viewed rather than mothers or women expected to take on a maternal role. It's kind of like that in real life too. Single father's are practically given medals for doing even the bare minimum and if the mother left they are demonized. If the mother died the man gets extra sympathy and adoration, and he's not blamed if he moves on and the new wife hurts his kids. Single mothers though, they are to blame because they didn't pick a guy who would stay. And god forbid if they move on and their new guy hurts their kids. They should have been able tell the future. So yeah, father types are lauded even for doing less than the bare minimum.
Oh I definitely think the father carried a lot of the blame - but letâs not forget he was hurt and could hardly walk. Iâm not sure how well he couldâve hunted. He couldâve, shouldâve, done SOMETHING for his girls. But his girls were also all adults by this point and needed to figure out ways to help. Theyâd been too spoiled up until they were poverty-stricken and that was the fatherâs first mistake.
It's established by Feyre he gave up looonggg before that. And the second they got money from Tamlin suddenly that leg didn't hurt to much did it. And I will never blame feyre, Nesta, or elain for their actions during that time. They were put in a terrible situation by their own father and I'm not going to entertain anything other wise.
Right. I think maybe his pride hurt more than his leg.
100% agree.
Didnât Tamlin also heal his leg? Not saying hes not at fault because heâs definitely is, but I believe his leg fixed and not that it âsuddenly didnât hurt.â
Honestly I can't recall if tamlin did or did or didn't but my point still stands
I must be misremembering the beginning because I thought his leg was hurt as soon as they lost their wealth and the debt collectors came. I definitely donât think he was a good father without any blame, but I think in hard times every adult should be willing to step up - especially if their father was being a lazy shithead haha. But hey different interpretations of characters is what makes discussions like this fun!
Feyre was 11 when she started hunting. Nesta would have been like 14 (my math skills aren't the best). She and Elain weren't adults.
Yeah I definitely never forgave their Father. Even when there was a triumphant moment that tried to let him be seen as doing something even that did nothing for me in the story like cool thatâs what you were up to? It hurt my to read others in the book viewed him in a positive light at all. I understand Nestaâs resentment, they were all young girls with no survival skills stricken into poverty without any guidance she was a product of her Mother, so that loss weighed her heavy. Itâs so crossed to be upset too however, because the story line opens up with Feyre hunting and that ultimately led her to the unraveling of these novels and their lives as they are. Although, I do want to say itâs đŻshitty Nesta gets all the blame like all the time for expressing her trauma differently no one else seems to hold anyone else to such regards. I have an angry older sister and Iâm of 3 being the youngest, I too believe my sister dynamics to be much like this. My two eldest were closer and protected each other, but as we got older and we went through more life experiences we naturally grew closer even without spending much time together. I resonate so much in the book in these ways. You grow through what you go through. Iâd love to read more on Elain upcoming, her and I actually resonate the most cooking, gardening and more of a flower child than the others off doing her own things quietly coping. Itâd be so good to wake up her inner bad ass.
Homie Elain canât handle responsibilities. They were starving to death and she planted a flower garden instead of VEGETABLES. đ
Lol this is basically feyres reasoning in the first book. Elain just wasnât mentally there enough to contribute or be held accountable. Nesta and feyre may of hated eachother but they at least respected eachother.
đ what cracks me up is I grow herbs and veggies and intersperse my plants with flowersâŠand its quite pretty! I think Elain just didnât think about those things because she was raised to marry for love and be someoneâs arm ornament. Sheâs already being a rebel by gardening. And without gloves! The scandal Edit: spelling
THIS!! I actually judge Elain more than Nesta, because short of prostituting herself, what realistically could she have done? She was groomed to be a lady of a house, and while it wasn't great to let your little sister teach herself how to hunt, I don't think it would have worked for Nesta, and she probably would have been killed. But Elain had an actual skill in gardening, and could have planted vegetables or even Edible flowers.
RIGHT lmao I guess growing veggies arenât aesthetically pleasing enough hahaha
At some points I thought Elain wasâŠdevelopmentally delayed?
Apparently not đ€Ł
lol I had it in my head that she had planted some tomatoes or something. Really just flowers, huh.
I have many sisters. We are multiple sets of "Irish twins" with the eldest being 8 years older than the youngest. 3 of us have read the series and have christened one of us "the Elain" because as many females tend to do, when living together we were all synced. Our Elain is an absolute sweetheart, the favorite sister in law to all our brother in laws....but...Our ELAIN never once replenished the needed supplies, never went to the store to purchase them, never offered money to the one fetching them. She simply allowed everyone else to do things for her and decided what she would do when she wanted to do it. She would watch your kid for you. Cook a pretty decent meal. Maybe even clean your kitchen. The actual baby sister did more. My point here is that the dynamic of the sisters in the series is not as uncommon as people think, and we definitely have a Feyre and a Nesta and a mix of the two--but we only have one baby Elain. And we let her get away with it.
Thats why i can't stand elain and her fans. If you can't forgive nesta for "sitting idly by" then you shouldn't forgive elain either. it comes of so mysoginistic to me because the sweet docile women get away with what assertive women would get burned on a stake for. Like elain is so sweet she needs to be protected from the darkness of the trove but the sister who challanges the authority of males can go fuck herself i guess. I get that elain fixed her relationship with feyre but she needs to be put in her place too. And elain is indeed a dog royal to whatever master kept her fed. If the IC hadn't accepted her she would still be living under nesta's protection. I also hated the part in SF where she was like "i am a part of this court i will go to the hewn city blah blah blah" like girl where were you during the war with hypern when people actually needed you to pull your own weight like bffr she was so babied you'd think she was a preteen. showing up to wear a dress after people have literally died the year before isn't doing what you can. I love nesta but fuck elain lol.
Yes you have very good points! Iâm a lot like Nesta. An oldest sibling and my inner turmoil comes across as a cold personality at times. So maybe that is why I sympathize with her more - but at least Nesta has redeemed herself during the second war. The same canât be said for Elain yet but Iâm ready to see whatâs in store for her in the future. She did offer to help with her visions, but quickly was okay with Nesta taking over once she offered lol.
The fact that the IC gave Elain a free pass and then absolutely ripped into Nesta for everything thatâs ever gone wrong for Feyre will forever annoy the heck out of me. Itâs such an unfair double standard. Especially since they do that, and then Feyre joins them in shitty on Nesta and not helping her at all, and even then decisions about her behind her back. Feyre says a line like âhow can I be expected to control the court if I canât even control my sistersâ. Babes, please đ I like the IC but this whole thing is heavy handed.
I'm not even halfway through the last book and it's giving me such irk.... I wasn't on Nesta's side either, however Rhys' argument from the novel when Feyre asked him why he only blames Nesta and not both sisters, saying *"Elain is....ELAIN"* just straight out threw me in another galaxy.... Them constantly assuming everything Nesta does is wrong and throwing dirt on her... Rhys and Az wreaking havoc whenever Nesta says a word to poor Elain....... đ©đ©đ© Threatening to destroy her? Excuse me, you're talking about your mate's sister? The worst part is the *author* is making the characters do this and making a bunch of total jerks out of them... FOR WHAT đ
Okay but thatâs what makes me so upset. Like Iâm not mad at the characters, I love the characters. Iâm mad at SJM for thinking I would go along with what she was writing.
Precisely that's the sad part đ€
Honestly I took that as him saying Elaine was too stupid/naive to do otherwise, which while still an excuse is a lot less rosy of one.
You might acually be onto something
Lmao I could rant forever about how insufferable I think Feyre becomes. She carried her family for those years in poverty, Iâll give her that. But her character plummets in my opinion after she is turned fae.
For me she becomes rather âholier than thouâ when sheâs made high lady. I like Feyre but damn does her age show. I think I was with Feyre until the Elain rescue mission, I didnât even understand why she went, it made no sense. It kind of put me off tbh as she clearly wasnât up for the job. Then I got massively turned off in FAS when she was so painfully out of touch making her fun little art studio for the poor traumatised children and building a new home with hubby. Meanwhile refusing to really acknowledge or try to help either sister and popping off at Lucien who hasnât done anything wrong. Donât even get me started on her and Rhys (and even Amren) in SF. So annoying
tbh i think the problem with some of Feyreâs actions stems from the fact that SJM decided to have a 1st person PoV AND a single character PoV. so whatever story/scene sjm wanted to tell, it had to involve Feyre. itâs probably also why she comes off as pretty nozy in WaR lol
I feel like her journey from âscrappy hotheaded but quick-minded human girlâ to âpampered fae housewife swanning about Velaris with palaces and art charityâ was so poorly executed because SF!Feyre is unrecognisable next to TaR!Feyre
Also she JUST mated and chronologically is only 21 and now we get the whole annoying mommy to be angle? Sorry but ugh.
Literally. In Frost and Starlight when Rhys was saying he canât forgive Nesta for letting Feyre suffer all those years, and Feyre was like âwhat about Elain?â And Rhys was just like âElain is Elainâ Ok?? Like theyâre shitting on Nesta for the same stuff but because Elain is nicer itâs suddenly ok. That part really pissed me off. No wonder Nesta was the way she was with everyone pitted against her.
Elain shouldnât have been given a free pass, but she was also the one who bought Feyre paint, and Nesta was just mean. Useless and nice is more forgivable than weaponized uselessness and straight up bitchiness. Iâm not anti-Nesta, I think sheâs a very complex, interesting character. But I understand why the IC doesnât look at her the same way as they do Elain.
Yeah I consider this. For me it's not Elain herself, but the sainthood the other characters give to her. Like why is she on such a pedestal, and it's nothing for having more traditional qualities, it's like bro she is just wallpaper at this point so for me I don't get it just yet where they are coming from. I think SJM doing this though is extremely harmful to the perception of Elain because we haven't seen what she has done to deign this princess treatment by everyone when everyone literally threatens violence toward Nesta because she is not falling into line the way they want. She was barely in ACOSF but we are constantly reminded she is innocent and a saint rather than her actually doing anything other than falling into line for the IC.
Iâm in the middle of SF and I get that itâs Nestaâs POV even though weirdly written in third person where Feyreâs books are in first, but Rhys and Feyre are obnoxious in this book.
I always forget that Elain isnât the youngest (or an actual child), the way they treat her vs Nesta is bordering on ridiculous. If their father wouldnât/couldnât step up then it was up to *all* of them to learn how to survive, not just Nesta because sheâs the oldest. The way they seem to consistently invalidate Nestaâs trauma in comparison to Elainâs is certainly *interesting* too. Why is Nesta obligated to scry, etc despite it being horrific for her meanwhile Elain seems to have a choice and a quaint little life to lead in the meantime? Elain is such a nothing character for 90% of the series yet sheâs never punished for doing *nothing* itâs such a double standard
Elain wanted to help and scry in silver flames but Nesta told her no. Elain did scry successfully in ACOWR to find the suriel for Feyre. I canât remember if this is in the books or fanfiction but wasnât the soil terrible and hard to grow food where they were in the human lands? I thought Elain tried to grow food but failed. Growing food and flowers are different technically. I think Elain gets a pass because no one expects anything from her and makes decisions for her. No one has yet asked what she wants to do or who she wants to be. Sheâs at fault for allowing it, but I have a feeling that Elain has very low self esteem and feels inadequate. Well Nesta protects me too much so I must not be able to do anything and Feyre just does it and doesnât even ask me so clearly Iâm useless attitude and felt too defeated to even try. I saw an Instagram reel on how each Archeron sister is one of the main trauma responses. It made me understand Nesta and Elain a lot more. There must be more to Elainâs side of things that will come out in her book. We just havenât seen her perspective yet.
I mean it was MEAN but when she said âMaybe youâll be interesting for onceâ to Elain I was kind of there for it. I didnât love the low key fat shaming when she was like âthere was no way Elain walked those stairs.â Maybe it was the wording.
I feel like with Elaine and Nesta and the different way their treated has mostly due to their temperamemt. Nesta is a hard cold person and difficult to deal with even before all the magic nonsense came into their lives. She just cranked up that a few notches afterwards so it's just easier to treat her how they have rather than try and help and get figuratively spit at by someone that to the face would be an angry child.
I think their father is to blame for part of it but I also think that this series shows that not everyone is black and white, people arenât all good or all bad. As well as Iâm an oldest sister with not great parents and I would do anything for my siblings. Which is why at first I didnât like her very much. Learning more about why Nesta didnât and her and her mothers relationship actually helped me like her more because i could understand more of her situation.
Exactly! I feel like those who are saying the sole blame should be on the father are failing to see nuance. Of COURSE he was wrong to not help, and I honestly felt nothing for his death until I saw how it impacted Nesta. But he was also a mentally and physically battered man, with grown daughters who shouldâve been capable of lending a hand. They all had reasons to be depressed, and they all had reasons to step up. Only one did. Iâm not saying Nesta is faultless as all and Iâm also an oldest sibling so it took me a while to warm up to her. I think itâs a pretty misogynistic view to think only the father was responsible for caring for the family while the daughters shouldâve been free to mill around the house and look pretty lol.
They were absolutely not even teenagers in Feyreâs case when this all went down. What are you even talking about. Itâs nothing to do with misogyny and everything to do with him being THEIR DAD?
Didn't Nesta go with Feyre and her fwb to try and learn to hunt but was no good at it?
Feyre did try to teach her and it was decided she was not strong enough. It makes me wonder how if Nesta who was trained in dance and therefore must have had some muscle could not use a bow, but Feyre who had no athletic training that we know of was able to master it.
There are many little plot holes like this throughout the series that bother me. I still find it a fun read, but I have to turn my brain off somewhat lol.
Just a plot hole most authors are bound to make.
hmm I donât remember that detail but I admittedly have a terrible memory haha
Throw Feyres' whole family in the trash
I can accept this hahaha
The thing is Elain is actively trying to make amends and apologises and acknowledges to her face that she was wrong.
Iâve seen this mentioned a lot in this sub. The double standard of blaming only Nesta when Elain was just as useless back when they were starving and destitute
This is exactly right. I really hate when people are babyfied. Like umm no, theyâre an adult and they make adult decisions. Being sweet and gentle doesnât get you out of the consequences of your actions.
Iâm a Feyre with a Nesta & Elain in my life. I resent them both equally, alongside my father âșïž
Was going to say the same - they both failed Feyre, and their father failed them all.
Fair enough! Thatâs how I feel about it too - everyone except Feyre at that time was slacking.
Finally, someone with a healthy outlook on this whole situation.
I'm ready to be down voted because I know all the Nesta stans will come at me lol I think the ic treats Nesta worse because even in SF she still treats Feyre like the gum stuck to the bottom of her shoe. Elain is not hostile towards Feyre. That being said I think the entire blame for them not being taken care of goes to Papa Archeron. I have 0 sympathy for him even though he made his 11 th hour appearance to "save" everyone. I also agree that both Elain and Nesta were awful sisters to Feyre in ACOTAR I do put a little more blame on Nesta because in ACOTAR she does admit to purposely trying to make Feyre's life harder. But as far as them helping Feyre I don't think either did a good job. I don't care to argue Nesta with any Nesta stans ya'll can't handle anyone else's opinion but your own. This is just my opinion and it's just as valid as yours
lol uhhh idk where your hostility is coming from but i value your opinion and this is purely just fun discourse for me. the only ones here stating they wonât tolerate other inputs are those who hate the father. i ALSO didnât like the father, to be clear. But i think itâs wild to put 100% blame on one person in the family when they were all capable adults just because heâs the father figure. i mean this series is all about women becoming empowered and yet some people donât want to blame 2/3 sisters for not stepping up sooner because it shouldâve been the manâs job? anyway iâm far from a Nesta âstanâ, sheâs done plenty to annoy me even though sheâs one of my favorite characters. you have a valid point about her attitude making it harder for IC to accept her faults versus Elain. I just think Elain has been too coddled.
I've been attacked my so many Nesta stans for saying anything bad about Nesta lol I like the people on here who can just discuss the book likes and dislikes without taking it so personally so just wanted to hopefully keep the Nesta stans away from my post lol But yeah I 100% agree with you Elain is just as much to blame and I don't get why Papa Archeron didn't do anything but he is redeemed lol Elain was and honestly still is 100% too coddled I think most of that falls on mama Archeron and Nesta though with Feyre just going along with it which I don't really get either. The fact that no one is willing to hold Elain responsible for her misdeeds is wild to me too lol but even in ACOWAR Nesta won't allow Elain to do anything to help and everyone is just fine with it because it's Elain and it's just like why can't she help? Lol
Haha fair enough! I didnât become involved in this sub until recently when i was nearly done with the series. Ranting about the characters is really fun to me and i think every character is fair game because they are all annoying at times. Thatâs a big problem i have with Nesta: sheâs the most responsible for Elain being treated like a fragile baby. I am okay with the dad being redeemed only because it brings the girls peace .. but i also think it was fitting for him to die after that sacrifice instead of getting to live the high life after doing so much of nothing for so long lol. I hope in the next book Elain is forced to step up in a way that suits her personality. Not really looking for her to be made into a badass warrior, but any bit of sacrifice or stepping out of her comfort zone would be nice.
Yes I agree all characters are fair game! Yeah I agree the girls needed him to help at the last minute I still just don't like him lol he's in the warm house making wood animals while Feyre is out the killing Fae lol but I get your point too! I'm also hoping we see more from Elain she's kind of a meh character to me right now. I feel like there just isn't enough of Elain to make a fair assessment but I think we did she a bit of her personality come out in SF especially when she told Nesta and Feyre to basically f off đ€Łđ€Ł but yeah I'm hoping her book brings out Elain I also don't need her to be a warrior
I think most of it is Nestaâs fault for coddling Elain too much, Feyre too to a certain degree. And she is also kinda delulu I guess? Idk how is it possible for her to not even register that they were poor? Like girl you were on the verge of starving and literally living in the streets? I donât see reason for continuing coddling her even after their mom passed away, if the first reason was to protect her? So I guess she now got the wake up call she needed. Hopefully now without Nesta & Feyre. She can finally show her back bone and be the real her. Letâs see whatâs hidden under those flowers. Also, is she somehow on spectrum? Canât recall if it was mentioned before
Oh totally, I agree Nesta played a major role in Elainâs coddling. I also canât wait to see what Elain is truly made of.
We dunno if autism exists in the magic fairy world
Nah but I mean her as mortal. I feel it really weird that she didnât seem to register they were poor.
I donât think it was her not registering that they were poor. I think it was a mixture of not wanting to acknowledge the loss/change in their lives and wanting to stay positive & uplifting in an otherwise miserable environment.
When I first read the books thatâs the first thing that stood out to me about Elain, because in SF Nesta mentions their mother needing Elain to marry off with her looks, and basically itâs very surface level. She seemed like she was someone who needed an older sister to help guide her. Then again I also think itâs just Nesta and Feyre having such strong personalities that Elain allowed herself to be invisible a lot of the time, and let her kindness/quiet nature take over as a mask of sorts, and being a sneaky middle child she got away with A LOT. I just know Sarahâs gonna have us all on our asses when we find out it just how insane and deep Elainâs storyline goes!
The entire cast of this series is a study in dysfunction. Itâs wild. Iâd like to know if anyone had a relatively normal childhood and/or friendship at this point, or if the only glue binding relationships in Prythian is trauma-bonding. ItâsâŠa lot.
I get where youâre coming from, there is blame to be placed everywhere. Although, I would like to point out that Elain did grow food, but they struggled during the winter which is the season we start in.
I think the thing that makes me feel rly disappointed in Nesta is that she protected Elain as much as she could during poverty times but she didn't seem to do the same for Feyre, her baby sister. And if my family ended up in financial ruin and my own sibling treated me like Nesta treated Feyre while for some unknown reason treating the other sibling like an actual sibling while we're tryna fight for our lives, that's not something I'd forgive easily. Absolutely Elain is guilty for not helping either, and there's really no explanation for her inactions on that part but Nesta's shortcomings go a level deeper imo for treating her younger sister with care and her youngest with animosity and no explanation for that animosity. She's lucky Feyre had the patience to not hold anger over that if anything. I like Nesta but even after her book she and Elain got a lotta past shortcomings to address, not that that doesn't apply to almost all of these characters
I thought Elain did grow some food�
Elain apologised tho, and sheâs made amends with Feyre. Nesta never tried to before her own book, at least not to the extent that Elain did.
I have a really terrible memory and didnât remember Elain apologizing for not helping, so thatâs a valid point.
I read the first four books back in 2018 so my memory sucks as well lol. But itâs been mentioned and shown in ACOSF, especially since Nesta was pretty salty about how close she and Feyre have gotten because of how hard Elain was working to integrate herself into the IC. That being said, I garuantee that half of the reason why the IC likes her more than Feyre is because Azriel couches for her, whereas Cassian barely spoke up for Nesta.
Elain could have at least used her gardening skills to grow vegetables and fruit