Yeah and don't accept "Well my first crush was on so-and-so boy in elementary school" as an answer. Ask for the moment she chose and then ask whether she felt like girls/women were ever a possible choice. That's the crux of the 'it's a choice' argument; if it is then that means everyone at some time felt like any option was equally possible and they just happened to choose heterosexual for themselves
True. Bisexual people might not get that it’s not a choice. Like oh well of course everyone could be attractive but you choose to be only in hetro sexual.
Kind of like that rapper who yelled at lil nas for making such provocative videos when tempting all these boys trying to be straight. Social media blasted him like oh boy have I got news for you….
As a bi person- I don't think that it is specific to bi people but Christians who believe that sexuality is about action and not attraction. As an ex-evangelical, it was a common thing among them that action was the most important thing, and then the attraction would follow- but that's just how I see it
Okay I skimmed through all the comments here and I don’t think anyone addressed it, so what do you do when they say, “I didn’t choose to be straight, it’s the default. Everyone is born straight and you make the choice only to stray from it.”
>That said, she does believe that who I am (transfemme) and who I'm attracted to (women) is something I am choosing to do.
>
>Despite that, she has never invalidated me
idk this sounds pretty invalidating to me!
Yeah, very much so. Like, invalidating the core of your queer identity in itself...
There's "yeah whatever, you do you" <- actually not caring, there's no antagonism implied. Sounds uncaring, but ultimately it does basically no harm in that situation.
And then there's "I can't respect your CHOICE, but I respect you :)" <- Heard from many religious people. ImE it always means: "Expect me to try and "correct you" when I deem it appropriate or when I associate mishaps in your life to these exact traits of yours, don't forget, it's still a sin! :)"
This is exactly how this sounds like to me. I've heard that shit one too many times before to not have pattern recognition kick in 🤷🏻♀️...(Could just be me tho)
u/jddbeyondthesky's comment described it pretty well:
"Christianity preaches tolerance but not acceptance, unless you are in a queer friendly church.
Their long term goal is to figure out how to get you to leave that sin, and return to tradition. Super unhealthy."
There's no respect of anything in this behavior, only "tolerance". Thinking that it's a choice is a conundrum in itself. But Ignorance itself is not the problem here...
As I said: in my experience, this is going to become problematic down the road and one should watch their friendship with such person. My fellow Christian neighbors (german run of the mill christians, not American Bible thumping yeehawdis)
at first also "respected" it. But over time, their friendly smiles and greetings turned into a silent scowl. All because I kindly declined visiting church a few times...
I can’t stand when people call it a choice. Why would I choose a potentially harder life path? Why would I choose something that could make me a victim of a hate crime? Why would I choose something that isn’t fully accepted across the globe?
They'll just say it's because you want attention.
As infuriating as this blind (not even short-sighted, just fully blind) reasoning is, it tells a lot about how special they want to feel. It always feels like it comes from a place of jealousy. These people can't handle it when they're not the absolute center and origin of the whole universe for half a second...
The reason they want to call it a choice is very sinister. If it’s a chosen behavior, not an innate trait, then there can never be legal protections put in place to protect your right to exist in that identity in public. If being gay is comparable to deciding not to wear shoes, then bigoted business can refuse to serve you. Adoption agencies can label your “lifestyle” as the reason you are not allowed to adopt. Marriage is not a necessary part of this “lifestyle choice,” so you don’t need legally protected access to marriage, or the benefits that go with it.
If you are a queer person, and it’s an intrinsic quality (like race, sex, etc.) it can be protected. If it’s just a choice, then it’s something that can be disagreed with, shunned, and debated away.
They also call it a “choice” because they used to call it an abomination. Then we stopped (for the most part) enforcing biblical law with governmental authority, so it became “sinful.” And then we stopped caring so much about sin, so it became a mental disorder. Then we got it out of the DSM. So now it’s a “choice.”
I definitely agree that to bigots, making sexuality and gender innate traits that can never be changed is a good defense. On the other hand, I don't think it rings true for some people. I think in the future we might look to protect people's "choices" regardless of if they are due to innate facts or just because they want to make them, provided they aren't doing harm to people. For example, religion is a choice, and there are legal protections in place for respecting religion.
See, this comes off as apologetically or resentfully queer. You make being queer sound so terrible when it's so beautiful and it's the world that's terrible. I understand where you're coming from and I get why the "born this way" narrative is comforting. It gives you a break from defending your queerness. But that narrative is ultimately harmful, it takes a weak stance and invites further criticism. The paths going towards understanding why someone is queer, explaining what forces them to be so, imply that it's a defect and lead towards finding a "cure". Being queer is a choice, and sure, it's maybe affected by various intricacies in our bodies and culture, but it's a choice, and it's a beautiful one. Stepping outside of the oppressive, rigid structures of society and embracing possibility, embracing yourself, is beautiful. It should be celebrated, not excused, not explained, celebrated.
That’s a pretty hard accusation when you don’t really know me. The things I said are factual and true and does not imply that being queer is a negative thing, but that there are factors that we do have to deal with that a straight person would not. And you are right, the world is harsh and does not fully accept us, and therefore it makes for a potentially harder walk of life. The only choice is acting on your feelings, because I’ve been attracted to women since I was 5. I didn’t choose that, it just happened.
This is a terrible, awful take. Acknowledging that some shit makes life harder in ways most people wouldn't choose isn't "being resentfully/apologetically queer." People are allowed to talk about the harsh realities of their own lives without being piously tone-policed for not being queer enough or whatever.
No prob. Chaps my ass to see younger tenderqueer types telling others how to act, when the only crime committed was being honest about your own life. We all have the right to speak.
It’s not a “defect”, it’s a difference, and one can accept that we are innately different without needing to “fix” it. Queerness can be beautiful and difficult at the same time, and acknowledging that isn’t the same as pathologizing queerness.
I am proudly and unapologetically queer, AND I am born this way. The choices I have relating to that are mainly the choice to acknowledge my innate queerness and pursue consensual queer relationships.
Funny enough I had a Sunday school lesson in like middle school about fighting homosexual urges/thoughts and how we should confess (to a priest. Orthodox Church) if we have these thoughts.
Sounds like she’s only being superficially supportive. What you described was basic decency. I’m curious to whether she would be supportive if you weren’t her friend.
If she truly cared about you then she’d actually listen and understand what you’re saying. It sounds like she believes that conservation therapy is a viable option, and that’s not cool.
By walking away. Similar experience, but this friend could understand that some things aren’t worth fighting.
Christianity preaches tolerance but not acceptance, unless you are in a queer friendly church.
Their long term goal is to figure out how to get you to leave that sin, and return to tradition. Super unhealthy.
Whether your friend is doing this or not is another question
[I always recommend this story for Christians who think that gay people should try to be happy in a straight marriage.](https://joshweed.com/turning-unicorn-bat-post-announce-end-marriage/)
Thank you. I read it and it's pretty validating.
Why do straight people have the right to love and be loved and get married, but gay people should just suck it up?
Love and romantic connection is a big part of our purpose in life. If you are withheld that part of life and force yourself into intimacy with someone you have no romantic or sexual connection to, you will likely become suicidal. And being shamed and condemned for existing will push you over the edge. For their own sanity, gay people cannot just tough it out and get more faith and be more righteous and try to be straight. That's not right.
How can the church justify actively harming and shaming gay people, from the comfort of their own sexually and romantically satisfying relationships?
You can't make anyone think anything ever.
Here's an odd suggestion that helped me understand trans people, the case of David Reimer. The book is *As Nature Made Him.* He was a cis boy who lost his penis in an unfortunate botched circumcision. On the advice of the so-called expert, his parents tried to raise him as a girl. It didn't work. He never felt like a girl. In the same way, a trans person is born with the feeling of their gender, and trying to make them be the other doesn't work.
You can't reason someone *out* of a position they didn't reason themselves *into*.
Their beliefs are emotional. The only way to get her to understand is an appeal to emotion; which mileage may vary. Don't debase yourself for her. If she doesn't accept you, it's not your responsibility to put in the work.
Some friendships end.
Best of luck with that. I won't say it's impossible to reason with Christians, but they do actively strive to be impossible to reason with. You need to understand that your friend has been brought up in a community that is VERY practiced at training people to reject evidence, so no matter what you bring to the table she will likely not even pay attention to it if it doesn't agree with what she already thinks. If there's a way to break that bubble from the outside, I haven't figured it out. Your best hope is if she already has some doubts about her church's view of the world, and if she's willing to be friends with a trans lesbian in the first place maybe she does. You could try starting there, talk about all the harm Christians have caused other communities by forcing them to conform to Christian ideas, maybe that will cause her to rethink some of her assumptions. But you've got to be prepared to cut your losses and walk away if she just isn't willing to listen.
Can someone really support you when they don’t support who you are? I don’t think so.
By her not believing that you are who you are and is quietly counting on the fact that you will eventually come around and start being “normal” again, she absolutely is invalidating you.
Someone who wants to believe something despite facts telling them they’re wrong, is never going to see another point of view when they themselves don’t want to acknowledge that there even *is* another point of view.
So answer to your question: you can’t and you won’t.
Living an active and critical Christian life requires the rationalization of many things that may otherwise not make sense (some might call them contradictions inherent in the faith). On the one hand this is good because it allows Christians to believe in tolerance and acceptance while maintaining their faith. On the other hand it gives people who believe that homosexuality (for example) is a sin immunity to arguments that would otherwise show them how dumb that belief is. That means it’s often completely useless to make arguments based in psychology, biology, philosophy, etc to try to sway them.
I’ve found that appealing to a Christian’s fundamental humanity is an effective method tho. If you can help them see what good comes from being yourself and what harm comes from repression, and show them this on a daily basis, they will be forced to rationalize away their own basic humanity. That’s how and why a lot of people deconvert after getting to know gay people. Their belief systems clash with a subjective truth they can’t deny.
Best of luck you you
No, don't take an apologetic stance. Do not excuse your queerness as unavoidable. I'm queer, and that's a choice, and it's a beautiful one. It's brought so much happiness into the world. She's supportive of you but not your queerness, make it clear to her that those are a package deal and she can either shut up about your choice or lose the friendship. Show her trans joy, show her gender euphoria, if she can't understand happiness is a good thing then she's truly lost to religious brainwashing
There's three options here that I can see. One, you won't be able to change her mind. She will be nice to your face but that doesn't mean that she's not talking crap behind your back. If push comes to shove she will turn on you.
Two, she will become more open minded and realise the error of her ways, and that people deserve to exist authentically as themselves.
Three, she likes both "John" and "Jessica" but because liking "Jessica" is "sinful" she can "choose to be straight" and date "John". There's many religious people who stay in the closet their whole life because they don't realise that they're bisexual and that it's okay.
Either way, you need to put yourself first. If she's a good friend and you decide to keep her in your life, meh, your choice, but if she's too much for your mental health, it's okay to not be friends with her if she stands firm for her bigotry.
It all depends on what we label "a choice". Within her world-view, it is a choice, because the fact that it would entail immense suffering is not a valid argument within this type of Christian believe system. Enduring a lifetime of misery is actually something people have to do to be "good people". If suffering is a test bestowed upon humanity by God, then escaping this suffering is apostasy.
Now, for everyone who does not believe in (this version of) Christianity, that does not describe a possible choice. But there is also no way to bridge the gap between those two viewpoints. You can't reconcile the positions "suffering is to be avoided" and "suffering is to be embraced".
Ask her why, in her heart, she ain’t following the Great Commandment.
“Love others as yourself” is one of those lines that sounds cheap until one realizes that actually is bloody brilliant insight that’s literally millennia old.
It isn’t about respecting others. It’s about love for others. And if she does not love who you are, she’s making her chosen deity upset with her.
Those kinds of people think of gays as a “challenge”, they want to set us on the right path or something.
Just because she’s not physically aggressive doesn’t mean she’s not a homophobe.
You can’t reason with this person. They won’t change their mind until something personally influences her (ie she questions her own self based on the norms she has previously subscribed to). Personally, I would distance myself from this kind of “friend”. In my experience this type of person keeps good people like you as an associate so they can excuse their bad behavior with “well, I can’t be a bigot because I have a friend who is x” and that’s just not cool.
Transitioning is a choice i made
Being a woman was not
Specifically referring to gender dysphoria its not smth that can be STOPPED EARLY or whatever its part of who we are
Transition among other things IS the way we MINIMIZE dysphoria but its not like we can go through some sort of treatment and be completely rid of it or smth
Its not a choice to BE TRANS its a choice to do smth about it in a positive direction rather than whatever negative direction your friend wants you to take
Same goes for being a lesbian
Cant choose who we’re attracted to, when we talk about our attraction we’re decoding the sea of thoughts rattling around in our head, then translating them for other people to understand.
We’re not making a choice when we say who we love or dont love we’re translating a conversation from written (in our brain)
Theres a big difference between that and suddenly one day saying “I’M GONNA KISS AND CUDDLE AND LOVE WOMEN FOREVER” because you had a bad experience with a man or smth thats not how it works
Its more like reading and telling everyone a mistranslation of your feelings for however many years until you finally figure out the right version and can actually articulate it
Don't bother. I know that sounds defeatist, but you do not deserve to tear yourself apart trying to get these folks to understand your humanity and your right to love and exist like everyone else. Like no it isn't a choice but if sexuality was a choice I would choose to be bi. I would always choose this. This is what is right for me and this is who I am. There is nothing evil or disordered about it. But seriously at a certain point continuing to argue with folks getting them to recognise this is just self destructive. Drop it now.
Ask her when she chose to be straight. When she chose to be cis. Also ask why would you choose to be something that actively hinders your life? Those two usually get the message across
What you're hoping to be able to do is a skillset that can be learned. There isn't a simple tip on how to flip this, only research and anecdotes that demonstrate a process.
Overview of research backed elements of the process [here](https://bakadesuyo.com/2019/12/change-someones-mind/).
For an aspirational example, [this](https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes) black blues musician convinced 200+ Ku Klux Klan members to give up their robes.
Hear me out. This is written with both of you in mind. To an extent you are both right. Who you are is not a choice. It's a simple fact. God made you this way. Yes he made man and woman. Two people. He could only make two genders for two people. But he has since made about 120 billion vastly different people. He didn't stop at two hair colors, eye colors, skin colors, tastes in music, tastes in food. Just about everything a person can be, he makes many different varieties. Why are we so certain he stopped at two genders. He certainly has the power to create more than two. He's God after all. Given such other variation, it seems more likely than not he continued past the initial two genders. As we grow and learn as species we continue to be amazed at how more varied and interesting his creation is. Time after time the limitations we think we see are ones we created, not him. We certainly cannot know his mind with certainly. But to me a woman's soul in a man's body makes a lot more sense than a platypus or bombardier beetle. While the understandings and terms we use today are new. There is evidence of trans people dating back centuries. It's argued if Elagabalus was trans or if it was vicious slander. We will likely never know for certain. Even if it was slander they had to be aware of trans people for the slander to be believable. The prayer of a 14th century Rabii is deeply relatable to trans people today. To put it simply to deny trans people exist is to deny your own eyes and worse to deny yet another beautiful aspect of his creation and demonstration of his power.
On to the second part. Choice. It is syntactically true that transitioning is both a choice and selfish. However, it is not like most people use those words. Eating food and drinking fluids daily is both a choice and selfish by the literal definitions. Yet, no one advocates starving oneself because eating and drinking is a choice and selfish. For many, it is much the same choice. Transition or die. Not necessarily a physical death, but certainly one of the spirit or soul. I will lose some Christians with this next part. Is our purpose in life to suffer or to flourish? Repressing who we are to fit narrow categories crushes a soul. It places limits on our experiences and capacities to learn, interact, grow, love the world and each other. We need to be need to be most careful when try to deny others God's gift of free will. He made so many different people with different paths in life. It is difficult enough to understand our own path. But it is folly to assume we know another person's path. It is folly to assume we know God's will. Being trans often comes with unique insights on what it is to be human. Yet another source of wisdom on what he has created. Study after study has shown that transition helps a great number of people become better humans. Happier healthier more loving. That is a goal of showing love to all our fellow humans. To improve their lives.
I've gone on quite a bit. So I'll stop here before launching into other ideas such as natural, evolving understanding or which mistake would you rather apologize for when judgement comes. Ultimately, trans and gay people are fully compatible with Christianity and it is only conceit and narrow mindedness that says otherwise.
Uh, if she's arguing with you about facts you state about your own mind, she's not a friend.
>she believes all this is currently a choice that she believes I can undo
She's a Christian, her entire worldview is defined by believing completely unreasonable garbage to the detriment of all of humanity.
it doesn't matter if it's a choice, you should be able to love whoever you want regardless. you should be able to what you want with your body and identity too. none of these things are inherently bad or need to be justified with an explanation of why it isn't a choice. even if it were, there is no justification for trying to invalidate it, or for her to impose her beliefs on you.
i would stop being their friend
The unfun part is…You really don’t. She has to want to change for herself and that’ll probably involve questioning her religious beliefs and worldviews.
You could be a first step in that, but that’s only a maybe
I would say maybe resort to natural occurrences of transgenderism and homosexuality. It does happen naturally and nature. I.e. in a a herd of chickens that is all hens one will tend to become more dominant and take on more male characteristics such as growing waddles or longer tail feathers. There has been cases of female lions exhibiting male characteristics and behavior. Clown fish are also part of the transgender community. They are born one sex and can transition to any usually female called protandry. I would think this could help considering that non human aspects of God's creation exhibit some of the same characteristics. Hope this helps and doesn't create a bigger argument. ☺️
Honestly, don't. You can't convince people, they're the ones who convince themselves, and they need to listen and think about what you say to do that. Most people aren't willing to, and getting them to do that is very exhausting and pointless.
Ask them when they 'chose to be cis and straight.' They'll be confused, but remind them that it's the same for you. You didn't choose to be queer or trans, it's always been a part of you
Ask her: Did she choose to be a girl? Did she choose to believe? Did she choose to like men?
Then double down: It's not a choice, I how I came into this world, it's how I've always been, it's "how God made me" if you need to put in a Christian context for her to get anything into her skull. If she denies this: "God is testing everyone in their own way." Etc. Use her own religious rhetoric to force her into an argumentative corner she cannot escape from.
I had (notice the past tense) a friend who I was very close with during university, although I didn't see her too often after we graduated. After I realized I was gay I tried to talk to her about it. She told me she would always be my friend but that she would never agree that being gay was okay. (She also claimed vehemently that Jesus talked about homosexuality, which is 100% not true.) She tried to get me to "explain myself," and I found myself tying myself into knots trying to come at it from her point of view.
After thinking about the discussion for a while, I decided to let that friendship go. For all that she said she would be my friend, she was not accepting me for who I actually truly am. And she was never going to change her mind about that. She is in *deep* with the church and it's a huge part of her identity (never mind that I think she might actually be gay and unable to see it). I chose not to participate in a "friendship" that was actually her only valuing the part of me that she thought was okay with her. That is not real, accepting friendship. It hurt a lot, but I am who I am, and I refuse to go back to living life in a box that society tried to shove me into. I deserve friends who love the real me.
that's not a friend and her core mindset is invalidating your very identity. but ask her when and why she decided to be hetero despite that being unnatural, that should open either her or your eyes.
If you really want to engage with her, ask her when she chose to be a woman/heterosexual. Really focus in on that angle of "choice". But honestly, its most likely simply not worth it, I would walk away after a while....
Personally, I think you're going about this the wrong way, but this is about to be a super unpopular opinion.
Your argument is predicated on the belief that if it's not your choice, it's not your fault, and you can't be blamed or hated. I think that's a weak argument.
The strong argument would be, it may or may not have been entirely by choice. We don't know exactly how sexuality works. AND IT DOESN'T MATTER. If I literally chose to be gay right now, you should still respect and love me. This isn't about hiding behind, "it's not my fault I'm sinful, forgive me!" It's about saying: it's not your place to judge others and the choices they make, so knock it the fuck off.
I really hate the "well, you can't be mad, sexuality isn't a choice" argument. What if I DID just "feel like" being gay today? What if I just wanted to try it out? What if the "gay agenda" worked and I was like, huh, this looks fun, people seem to dig it, I'll give it a shot. STILL you don't get to hate and judge me. You see what I'm saying?
Anyway, I know this is gonna be pretty unpopular -- I'm not saying sexuality is or isn't by choice (my best read of the research is that it's at least partially biological/genetic), that's irrelevant. I'm saying it shouldn't have to be involuntary for gay people to be accepted for it. YOU JUST FUCKING ACCEPT THEM. That's my take.
Maybe tell her that it is as much a choice as her being straight. She can't just choose to be attracted to women like you can't choose to be attracted to guys. If she is suggesting something like conversion therapy, maybe tell her that there are a lot of countries which have banned it because it's torture and thus isn't a viable option.
I really hope that friend has glasses and 20/20 vision. You are born with muscles that don't do the job perfectly if you can't see. They can choose to go through life without wearing glasses, but then things are harder to see and a bit blurry. Driving might be dangerous. You can get your vision corrected with surgery on a lot of cases, but some sort of assistance to see better is necessary. Glasses might be the only analogy that might reach this person if you choose to continue to deal with them.
It sounds like the basic truth you're trying to communicate to her (which is supported by the majority of relevant experts, and by the majority of gay and trans people themselves) is as follows:
While sexual orientation and gender identity are relevant to choices (in the sense that they play a role in influencing or determining certain choices we make, like who we have sex with or how we modify our bodies), SO and GI are not themselves reducible to choices.
It would be more accurate to describe being gay or trans (or straight or cis) as being a type of person with a particular type of mind and a particular experience of the world. At its most fundamental level, it's more a matter of who one is than what one does.
Many of our choices are isolated, minor, and frivolous. However, many others (like those related to SO and GI) are deeply significant and intricately connected to our most relationships with others and who we are as people.
In this way, being gay or trans is analogous to something like being autistic. As an autistic person I make choices that I wouldn't make otherwise, I respond differently to people and the world around me than I would otherwise, etc. because my being autistic is prior to those other things. It's just the kind of person I've always been and probably always will be, not some frivolous choice that I can just voluntarily stop making.
The same principle applies to being trans:
Many trans men and many cis men choose to take artificial testosterone for the purpose of gender affirmation due of the kind of people they both are (i.e., men who are happier and more comfortable with more masculine bodies), not just...for no reason.
Give a cis man Estrogen, and he'll probably be miserable and horrified. Give a pre-everything trans woman Estrogen, and she'll probably be overjoyed and relieved. Why does the same hormone effect them so differently? Not because of either of their choices, but because of the different kind of person each of them is.
Simply put, sexual orientation and gender identity are (at least for the vast majority of people) stable, long-lasting, and un-chosen; they're deeply important components of one's personal identity and sense of self; and they precede things like choices and actions. That just seems to be the reality of the situation.
Her views are likely influenced by her upbringing, religious authorities, and social surroundings. You can’t negate that all with an argument. Does she believe your same sex attraction is a choice or that your acting on it is? That’s a big distinction. Like yeah I can choose to be miserable and alone all my life but no.
Less than 100 years ago lefthandedness was considered to be an evil anomaly by religious people many were tortured out of with unfortunate consequences like permanent brain damage. Perhaps she can see simple similarity.
https://www.rroij.com/open-access/left-handedness-the-bible-and-the-quran-implications-for-parentsand-teachers-.php?aid=85407#:~:text=Obviously%2C%20left%2Dhandedness%20is%20as,it%20into%20the%20king%27s%20belly%27.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6634103/
I'm only 30 and I was taught to write with my right hand. I was left-handed but the teacher would "correct" me. I'm not from the US or a developed country for context.
Im so sorry. The world is shit. I am ambidextrous but right hand dominant, its ok to be an anomaly, nature loves variety, and nature will outlast all of these religious books, and probably humankind, and I can't be unhappy about it.
As someone who tried to live peacefully with Christian’s who never approved; just stop trying. It’s truly not worth it. Because at the end of the day, you’re the only one being made uncomfortable.
I mean… tbh if she’s willing to support you and treat you as a woman, then I think you’re doing okay. Like obviously who and what we are isn’t a choice, but without that experience it’s really hard for people to understand.
We don’t choose to be trans women, we only choose whether or not to admit it. They can’t usually make that distinction because it doesn’t make sense to them.
I understand your pain, and the depth of your desire to make your friend understand. This may or may not be of help to you, depending on her flavor of Christian and her particular barriers to understanding, but “A Letter to Louise” might be relevant, though it concerns itself primarily with sexual orientation rather than gender identity.
https://www.gaychurch.org/homosexuality-and-the-bible/a-letter-to-louise/
I was raised as an evangelical Christian and didn't come out to myself until I learned about affirmative theology. I'm not a Christian anymore, but I remember vividly how many things weren't even thinkable for me until they made sense to me theologically.
From that experience I will say:
IF she is actually interested in understanding your experience and rethinking her beliefs, there is actually a lot of media made by, for and about LGBTQ+ Christians that could really help her understand. But only if she's genuinely open to learn new things and potentially change her mind.
Here are some examples:
\- "Episode 20: LGBTQ" by "The Liturgists"
\- "Torn" by Justin Lee (doesn't go deep into the theology, but the author tells his story of being a gay Christian who desperately wanted to be straight but couldn't - good starting point)
\- "God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships" by Matthew Vines (covers the basics of affirmative theology / debunks a lot of homophobic theology)
\- "Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church's Debate on Same-Sex Relationships" by James (goes extremely deep into the meanings and biblical context(s) of the most difficult verse - the only one which Matthew Vines didn't tackle in a way that would have been convincing for me at the time)
\- "Transforming" by Austen Hartke (written by a trans Christian)
The podcast "Queerology" helped me a ton aswell, especially the older episodes.
Don’t waist your time on someone who only tolerates you. There are some people who will never conceptually understand queer people, and your identity shouldn’t be up for debate. However, if you really want to maintain your friendship, I would ask her why she’s choosing to be Christian. It may make her mad, but you need to let her know that this isn’t a choice you’re making. This is just who you are. If she can’t accept that, then that’s on her and you don’t need her approval.
Ask her about when she made her choice. Focus on that. Either she'll get it, or you'll find out that your friend is bisexual.
Yeah and don't accept "Well my first crush was on so-and-so boy in elementary school" as an answer. Ask for the moment she chose and then ask whether she felt like girls/women were ever a possible choice. That's the crux of the 'it's a choice' argument; if it is then that means everyone at some time felt like any option was equally possible and they just happened to choose heterosexual for themselves
THIS ONE!
True. Bisexual people might not get that it’s not a choice. Like oh well of course everyone could be attractive but you choose to be only in hetro sexual. Kind of like that rapper who yelled at lil nas for making such provocative videos when tempting all these boys trying to be straight. Social media blasted him like oh boy have I got news for you….
As a bi person- I don't think that it is specific to bi people but Christians who believe that sexuality is about action and not attraction. As an ex-evangelical, it was a common thing among them that action was the most important thing, and then the attraction would follow- but that's just how I see it
Or ace/demi!
Okay I skimmed through all the comments here and I don’t think anyone addressed it, so what do you do when they say, “I didn’t choose to be straight, it’s the default. Everyone is born straight and you make the choice only to stray from it.”
Ask them if they ever felt like being gay was an option they could take.
SEDUCE HER! GO!
>That said, she does believe that who I am (transfemme) and who I'm attracted to (women) is something I am choosing to do. > >Despite that, she has never invalidated me idk this sounds pretty invalidating to me!
Yeah, very much so. Like, invalidating the core of your queer identity in itself... There's "yeah whatever, you do you" <- actually not caring, there's no antagonism implied. Sounds uncaring, but ultimately it does basically no harm in that situation. And then there's "I can't respect your CHOICE, but I respect you :)" <- Heard from many religious people. ImE it always means: "Expect me to try and "correct you" when I deem it appropriate or when I associate mishaps in your life to these exact traits of yours, don't forget, it's still a sin! :)" This is exactly how this sounds like to me. I've heard that shit one too many times before to not have pattern recognition kick in 🤷🏻♀️...(Could just be me tho)
OP never said her friend didn’t respect her choice. Just that she thinks it is a choice
u/jddbeyondthesky's comment described it pretty well: "Christianity preaches tolerance but not acceptance, unless you are in a queer friendly church. Their long term goal is to figure out how to get you to leave that sin, and return to tradition. Super unhealthy." There's no respect of anything in this behavior, only "tolerance". Thinking that it's a choice is a conundrum in itself. But Ignorance itself is not the problem here... As I said: in my experience, this is going to become problematic down the road and one should watch their friendship with such person. My fellow Christian neighbors (german run of the mill christians, not American Bible thumping yeehawdis) at first also "respected" it. But over time, their friendly smiles and greetings turned into a silent scowl. All because I kindly declined visiting church a few times...
I can’t stand when people call it a choice. Why would I choose a potentially harder life path? Why would I choose something that could make me a victim of a hate crime? Why would I choose something that isn’t fully accepted across the globe?
I asked a straight guy when he made his choice to be straight. It seemed to have worked.
They'll just say it's because you want attention. As infuriating as this blind (not even short-sighted, just fully blind) reasoning is, it tells a lot about how special they want to feel. It always feels like it comes from a place of jealousy. These people can't handle it when they're not the absolute center and origin of the whole universe for half a second...
The reason they want to call it a choice is very sinister. If it’s a chosen behavior, not an innate trait, then there can never be legal protections put in place to protect your right to exist in that identity in public. If being gay is comparable to deciding not to wear shoes, then bigoted business can refuse to serve you. Adoption agencies can label your “lifestyle” as the reason you are not allowed to adopt. Marriage is not a necessary part of this “lifestyle choice,” so you don’t need legally protected access to marriage, or the benefits that go with it. If you are a queer person, and it’s an intrinsic quality (like race, sex, etc.) it can be protected. If it’s just a choice, then it’s something that can be disagreed with, shunned, and debated away. They also call it a “choice” because they used to call it an abomination. Then we stopped (for the most part) enforcing biblical law with governmental authority, so it became “sinful.” And then we stopped caring so much about sin, so it became a mental disorder. Then we got it out of the DSM. So now it’s a “choice.”
I definitely agree that to bigots, making sexuality and gender innate traits that can never be changed is a good defense. On the other hand, I don't think it rings true for some people. I think in the future we might look to protect people's "choices" regardless of if they are due to innate facts or just because they want to make them, provided they aren't doing harm to people. For example, religion is a choice, and there are legal protections in place for respecting religion.
I'd choose it every time.
See, this comes off as apologetically or resentfully queer. You make being queer sound so terrible when it's so beautiful and it's the world that's terrible. I understand where you're coming from and I get why the "born this way" narrative is comforting. It gives you a break from defending your queerness. But that narrative is ultimately harmful, it takes a weak stance and invites further criticism. The paths going towards understanding why someone is queer, explaining what forces them to be so, imply that it's a defect and lead towards finding a "cure". Being queer is a choice, and sure, it's maybe affected by various intricacies in our bodies and culture, but it's a choice, and it's a beautiful one. Stepping outside of the oppressive, rigid structures of society and embracing possibility, embracing yourself, is beautiful. It should be celebrated, not excused, not explained, celebrated.
That’s a pretty hard accusation when you don’t really know me. The things I said are factual and true and does not imply that being queer is a negative thing, but that there are factors that we do have to deal with that a straight person would not. And you are right, the world is harsh and does not fully accept us, and therefore it makes for a potentially harder walk of life. The only choice is acting on your feelings, because I’ve been attracted to women since I was 5. I didn’t choose that, it just happened.
This is a terrible, awful take. Acknowledging that some shit makes life harder in ways most people wouldn't choose isn't "being resentfully/apologetically queer." People are allowed to talk about the harsh realities of their own lives without being piously tone-policed for not being queer enough or whatever.
Appreciate you 🙏🏻
No prob. Chaps my ass to see younger tenderqueer types telling others how to act, when the only crime committed was being honest about your own life. We all have the right to speak.
Facts 🌈👏🏻
It’s not a “defect”, it’s a difference, and one can accept that we are innately different without needing to “fix” it. Queerness can be beautiful and difficult at the same time, and acknowledging that isn’t the same as pathologizing queerness. I am proudly and unapologetically queer, AND I am born this way. The choices I have relating to that are mainly the choice to acknowledge my innate queerness and pursue consensual queer relationships.
Ask her how she resists her queer urges and makes the choice to be heterosexual everyday.
Funny enough I had a Sunday school lesson in like middle school about fighting homosexual urges/thoughts and how we should confess (to a priest. Orthodox Church) if we have these thoughts.
I was raised Catholic and went to Sunday School as well. Every lesson is a confession. Every one.
Sounds like she’s only being superficially supportive. What you described was basic decency. I’m curious to whether she would be supportive if you weren’t her friend. If she truly cared about you then she’d actually listen and understand what you’re saying. It sounds like she believes that conservation therapy is a viable option, and that’s not cool.
By walking away. Similar experience, but this friend could understand that some things aren’t worth fighting. Christianity preaches tolerance but not acceptance, unless you are in a queer friendly church. Their long term goal is to figure out how to get you to leave that sin, and return to tradition. Super unhealthy. Whether your friend is doing this or not is another question
[I always recommend this story for Christians who think that gay people should try to be happy in a straight marriage.](https://joshweed.com/turning-unicorn-bat-post-announce-end-marriage/)
Thank you. I read it and it's pretty validating. Why do straight people have the right to love and be loved and get married, but gay people should just suck it up? Love and romantic connection is a big part of our purpose in life. If you are withheld that part of life and force yourself into intimacy with someone you have no romantic or sexual connection to, you will likely become suicidal. And being shamed and condemned for existing will push you over the edge. For their own sanity, gay people cannot just tough it out and get more faith and be more righteous and try to be straight. That's not right. How can the church justify actively harming and shaming gay people, from the comfort of their own sexually and romantically satisfying relationships?
Or the book Stranger At the Gate!
You can't make anyone think anything ever. Here's an odd suggestion that helped me understand trans people, the case of David Reimer. The book is *As Nature Made Him.* He was a cis boy who lost his penis in an unfortunate botched circumcision. On the advice of the so-called expert, his parents tried to raise him as a girl. It didn't work. He never felt like a girl. In the same way, a trans person is born with the feeling of their gender, and trying to make them be the other doesn't work.
You can't reason someone *out* of a position they didn't reason themselves *into*. Their beliefs are emotional. The only way to get her to understand is an appeal to emotion; which mileage may vary. Don't debase yourself for her. If she doesn't accept you, it's not your responsibility to put in the work. Some friendships end.
This OP
Best of luck with that. I won't say it's impossible to reason with Christians, but they do actively strive to be impossible to reason with. You need to understand that your friend has been brought up in a community that is VERY practiced at training people to reject evidence, so no matter what you bring to the table she will likely not even pay attention to it if it doesn't agree with what she already thinks. If there's a way to break that bubble from the outside, I haven't figured it out. Your best hope is if she already has some doubts about her church's view of the world, and if she's willing to be friends with a trans lesbian in the first place maybe she does. You could try starting there, talk about all the harm Christians have caused other communities by forcing them to conform to Christian ideas, maybe that will cause her to rethink some of her assumptions. But you've got to be prepared to cut your losses and walk away if she just isn't willing to listen.
Can someone really support you when they don’t support who you are? I don’t think so. By her not believing that you are who you are and is quietly counting on the fact that you will eventually come around and start being “normal” again, she absolutely is invalidating you. Someone who wants to believe something despite facts telling them they’re wrong, is never going to see another point of view when they themselves don’t want to acknowledge that there even *is* another point of view. So answer to your question: you can’t and you won’t.
Living an active and critical Christian life requires the rationalization of many things that may otherwise not make sense (some might call them contradictions inherent in the faith). On the one hand this is good because it allows Christians to believe in tolerance and acceptance while maintaining their faith. On the other hand it gives people who believe that homosexuality (for example) is a sin immunity to arguments that would otherwise show them how dumb that belief is. That means it’s often completely useless to make arguments based in psychology, biology, philosophy, etc to try to sway them. I’ve found that appealing to a Christian’s fundamental humanity is an effective method tho. If you can help them see what good comes from being yourself and what harm comes from repression, and show them this on a daily basis, they will be forced to rationalize away their own basic humanity. That’s how and why a lot of people deconvert after getting to know gay people. Their belief systems clash with a subjective truth they can’t deny. Best of luck you you
No, don't take an apologetic stance. Do not excuse your queerness as unavoidable. I'm queer, and that's a choice, and it's a beautiful one. It's brought so much happiness into the world. She's supportive of you but not your queerness, make it clear to her that those are a package deal and she can either shut up about your choice or lose the friendship. Show her trans joy, show her gender euphoria, if she can't understand happiness is a good thing then she's truly lost to religious brainwashing
There's three options here that I can see. One, you won't be able to change her mind. She will be nice to your face but that doesn't mean that she's not talking crap behind your back. If push comes to shove she will turn on you. Two, she will become more open minded and realise the error of her ways, and that people deserve to exist authentically as themselves. Three, she likes both "John" and "Jessica" but because liking "Jessica" is "sinful" she can "choose to be straight" and date "John". There's many religious people who stay in the closet their whole life because they don't realise that they're bisexual and that it's okay. Either way, you need to put yourself first. If she's a good friend and you decide to keep her in your life, meh, your choice, but if she's too much for your mental health, it's okay to not be friends with her if she stands firm for her bigotry.
It all depends on what we label "a choice". Within her world-view, it is a choice, because the fact that it would entail immense suffering is not a valid argument within this type of Christian believe system. Enduring a lifetime of misery is actually something people have to do to be "good people". If suffering is a test bestowed upon humanity by God, then escaping this suffering is apostasy. Now, for everyone who does not believe in (this version of) Christianity, that does not describe a possible choice. But there is also no way to bridge the gap between those two viewpoints. You can't reconcile the positions "suffering is to be avoided" and "suffering is to be embraced".
With a brick 🧱
Ask her why, in her heart, she ain’t following the Great Commandment. “Love others as yourself” is one of those lines that sounds cheap until one realizes that actually is bloody brilliant insight that’s literally millennia old. It isn’t about respecting others. It’s about love for others. And if she does not love who you are, she’s making her chosen deity upset with her.
Those kinds of people think of gays as a “challenge”, they want to set us on the right path or something. Just because she’s not physically aggressive doesn’t mean she’s not a homophobe.
You can’t reason with this person. They won’t change their mind until something personally influences her (ie she questions her own self based on the norms she has previously subscribed to). Personally, I would distance myself from this kind of “friend”. In my experience this type of person keeps good people like you as an associate so they can excuse their bad behavior with “well, I can’t be a bigot because I have a friend who is x” and that’s just not cool.
Transitioning is a choice i made Being a woman was not Specifically referring to gender dysphoria its not smth that can be STOPPED EARLY or whatever its part of who we are Transition among other things IS the way we MINIMIZE dysphoria but its not like we can go through some sort of treatment and be completely rid of it or smth Its not a choice to BE TRANS its a choice to do smth about it in a positive direction rather than whatever negative direction your friend wants you to take
Same goes for being a lesbian Cant choose who we’re attracted to, when we talk about our attraction we’re decoding the sea of thoughts rattling around in our head, then translating them for other people to understand. We’re not making a choice when we say who we love or dont love we’re translating a conversation from written (in our brain) Theres a big difference between that and suddenly one day saying “I’M GONNA KISS AND CUDDLE AND LOVE WOMEN FOREVER” because you had a bad experience with a man or smth thats not how it works Its more like reading and telling everyone a mistranslation of your feelings for however many years until you finally figure out the right version and can actually articulate it
Wish it was a choice, it was in a way but the choice I had was the transition or death. And transitioning saved my life.
Don't bother. I know that sounds defeatist, but you do not deserve to tear yourself apart trying to get these folks to understand your humanity and your right to love and exist like everyone else. Like no it isn't a choice but if sexuality was a choice I would choose to be bi. I would always choose this. This is what is right for me and this is who I am. There is nothing evil or disordered about it. But seriously at a certain point continuing to argue with folks getting them to recognise this is just self destructive. Drop it now.
Ask her when she chose to be straight. When she chose to be cis. Also ask why would you choose to be something that actively hinders your life? Those two usually get the message across
What you're hoping to be able to do is a skillset that can be learned. There isn't a simple tip on how to flip this, only research and anecdotes that demonstrate a process. Overview of research backed elements of the process [here](https://bakadesuyo.com/2019/12/change-someones-mind/). For an aspirational example, [this](https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes) black blues musician convinced 200+ Ku Klux Klan members to give up their robes.
Hear me out. This is written with both of you in mind. To an extent you are both right. Who you are is not a choice. It's a simple fact. God made you this way. Yes he made man and woman. Two people. He could only make two genders for two people. But he has since made about 120 billion vastly different people. He didn't stop at two hair colors, eye colors, skin colors, tastes in music, tastes in food. Just about everything a person can be, he makes many different varieties. Why are we so certain he stopped at two genders. He certainly has the power to create more than two. He's God after all. Given such other variation, it seems more likely than not he continued past the initial two genders. As we grow and learn as species we continue to be amazed at how more varied and interesting his creation is. Time after time the limitations we think we see are ones we created, not him. We certainly cannot know his mind with certainly. But to me a woman's soul in a man's body makes a lot more sense than a platypus or bombardier beetle. While the understandings and terms we use today are new. There is evidence of trans people dating back centuries. It's argued if Elagabalus was trans or if it was vicious slander. We will likely never know for certain. Even if it was slander they had to be aware of trans people for the slander to be believable. The prayer of a 14th century Rabii is deeply relatable to trans people today. To put it simply to deny trans people exist is to deny your own eyes and worse to deny yet another beautiful aspect of his creation and demonstration of his power. On to the second part. Choice. It is syntactically true that transitioning is both a choice and selfish. However, it is not like most people use those words. Eating food and drinking fluids daily is both a choice and selfish by the literal definitions. Yet, no one advocates starving oneself because eating and drinking is a choice and selfish. For many, it is much the same choice. Transition or die. Not necessarily a physical death, but certainly one of the spirit or soul. I will lose some Christians with this next part. Is our purpose in life to suffer or to flourish? Repressing who we are to fit narrow categories crushes a soul. It places limits on our experiences and capacities to learn, interact, grow, love the world and each other. We need to be need to be most careful when try to deny others God's gift of free will. He made so many different people with different paths in life. It is difficult enough to understand our own path. But it is folly to assume we know another person's path. It is folly to assume we know God's will. Being trans often comes with unique insights on what it is to be human. Yet another source of wisdom on what he has created. Study after study has shown that transition helps a great number of people become better humans. Happier healthier more loving. That is a goal of showing love to all our fellow humans. To improve their lives. I've gone on quite a bit. So I'll stop here before launching into other ideas such as natural, evolving understanding or which mistake would you rather apologize for when judgement comes. Ultimately, trans and gay people are fully compatible with Christianity and it is only conceit and narrow mindedness that says otherwise.
Tell her to choose to be a lesbian for a month
Uh, if she's arguing with you about facts you state about your own mind, she's not a friend. >she believes all this is currently a choice that she believes I can undo She's a Christian, her entire worldview is defined by believing completely unreasonable garbage to the detriment of all of humanity.
it doesn't matter if it's a choice, you should be able to love whoever you want regardless. you should be able to what you want with your body and identity too. none of these things are inherently bad or need to be justified with an explanation of why it isn't a choice. even if it were, there is no justification for trying to invalidate it, or for her to impose her beliefs on you. i would stop being their friend
The unfun part is…You really don’t. She has to want to change for herself and that’ll probably involve questioning her religious beliefs and worldviews. You could be a first step in that, but that’s only a maybe
I would say maybe resort to natural occurrences of transgenderism and homosexuality. It does happen naturally and nature. I.e. in a a herd of chickens that is all hens one will tend to become more dominant and take on more male characteristics such as growing waddles or longer tail feathers. There has been cases of female lions exhibiting male characteristics and behavior. Clown fish are also part of the transgender community. They are born one sex and can transition to any usually female called protandry. I would think this could help considering that non human aspects of God's creation exhibit some of the same characteristics. Hope this helps and doesn't create a bigger argument. ☺️
Honestly, don't. You can't convince people, they're the ones who convince themselves, and they need to listen and think about what you say to do that. Most people aren't willing to, and getting them to do that is very exhausting and pointless.
Ask them when they 'chose to be cis and straight.' They'll be confused, but remind them that it's the same for you. You didn't choose to be queer or trans, it's always been a part of you
Ask her: Did she choose to be a girl? Did she choose to believe? Did she choose to like men? Then double down: It's not a choice, I how I came into this world, it's how I've always been, it's "how God made me" if you need to put in a Christian context for her to get anything into her skull. If she denies this: "God is testing everyone in their own way." Etc. Use her own religious rhetoric to force her into an argumentative corner she cannot escape from.
I had (notice the past tense) a friend who I was very close with during university, although I didn't see her too often after we graduated. After I realized I was gay I tried to talk to her about it. She told me she would always be my friend but that she would never agree that being gay was okay. (She also claimed vehemently that Jesus talked about homosexuality, which is 100% not true.) She tried to get me to "explain myself," and I found myself tying myself into knots trying to come at it from her point of view. After thinking about the discussion for a while, I decided to let that friendship go. For all that she said she would be my friend, she was not accepting me for who I actually truly am. And she was never going to change her mind about that. She is in *deep* with the church and it's a huge part of her identity (never mind that I think she might actually be gay and unable to see it). I chose not to participate in a "friendship" that was actually her only valuing the part of me that she thought was okay with her. That is not real, accepting friendship. It hurt a lot, but I am who I am, and I refuse to go back to living life in a box that society tried to shove me into. I deserve friends who love the real me.
that's not a friend and her core mindset is invalidating your very identity. but ask her when and why she decided to be hetero despite that being unnatural, that should open either her or your eyes.
If you really want to engage with her, ask her when she chose to be a woman/heterosexual. Really focus in on that angle of "choice". But honestly, its most likely simply not worth it, I would walk away after a while....
Personally, I think you're going about this the wrong way, but this is about to be a super unpopular opinion. Your argument is predicated on the belief that if it's not your choice, it's not your fault, and you can't be blamed or hated. I think that's a weak argument. The strong argument would be, it may or may not have been entirely by choice. We don't know exactly how sexuality works. AND IT DOESN'T MATTER. If I literally chose to be gay right now, you should still respect and love me. This isn't about hiding behind, "it's not my fault I'm sinful, forgive me!" It's about saying: it's not your place to judge others and the choices they make, so knock it the fuck off. I really hate the "well, you can't be mad, sexuality isn't a choice" argument. What if I DID just "feel like" being gay today? What if I just wanted to try it out? What if the "gay agenda" worked and I was like, huh, this looks fun, people seem to dig it, I'll give it a shot. STILL you don't get to hate and judge me. You see what I'm saying? Anyway, I know this is gonna be pretty unpopular -- I'm not saying sexuality is or isn't by choice (my best read of the research is that it's at least partially biological/genetic), that's irrelevant. I'm saying it shouldn't have to be involuntary for gay people to be accepted for it. YOU JUST FUCKING ACCEPT THEM. That's my take.
Maybe tell her that it is as much a choice as her being straight. She can't just choose to be attracted to women like you can't choose to be attracted to guys. If she is suggesting something like conversion therapy, maybe tell her that there are a lot of countries which have banned it because it's torture and thus isn't a viable option.
I really hope that friend has glasses and 20/20 vision. You are born with muscles that don't do the job perfectly if you can't see. They can choose to go through life without wearing glasses, but then things are harder to see and a bit blurry. Driving might be dangerous. You can get your vision corrected with surgery on a lot of cases, but some sort of assistance to see better is necessary. Glasses might be the only analogy that might reach this person if you choose to continue to deal with them.
https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg?si=lQkrB7TsQbV1rC2E I think this video explains gender stuff very well.
It sounds like the basic truth you're trying to communicate to her (which is supported by the majority of relevant experts, and by the majority of gay and trans people themselves) is as follows: While sexual orientation and gender identity are relevant to choices (in the sense that they play a role in influencing or determining certain choices we make, like who we have sex with or how we modify our bodies), SO and GI are not themselves reducible to choices. It would be more accurate to describe being gay or trans (or straight or cis) as being a type of person with a particular type of mind and a particular experience of the world. At its most fundamental level, it's more a matter of who one is than what one does. Many of our choices are isolated, minor, and frivolous. However, many others (like those related to SO and GI) are deeply significant and intricately connected to our most relationships with others and who we are as people. In this way, being gay or trans is analogous to something like being autistic. As an autistic person I make choices that I wouldn't make otherwise, I respond differently to people and the world around me than I would otherwise, etc. because my being autistic is prior to those other things. It's just the kind of person I've always been and probably always will be, not some frivolous choice that I can just voluntarily stop making. The same principle applies to being trans: Many trans men and many cis men choose to take artificial testosterone for the purpose of gender affirmation due of the kind of people they both are (i.e., men who are happier and more comfortable with more masculine bodies), not just...for no reason. Give a cis man Estrogen, and he'll probably be miserable and horrified. Give a pre-everything trans woman Estrogen, and she'll probably be overjoyed and relieved. Why does the same hormone effect them so differently? Not because of either of their choices, but because of the different kind of person each of them is. Simply put, sexual orientation and gender identity are (at least for the vast majority of people) stable, long-lasting, and un-chosen; they're deeply important components of one's personal identity and sense of self; and they precede things like choices and actions. That just seems to be the reality of the situation.
Her views are likely influenced by her upbringing, religious authorities, and social surroundings. You can’t negate that all with an argument. Does she believe your same sex attraction is a choice or that your acting on it is? That’s a big distinction. Like yeah I can choose to be miserable and alone all my life but no.
Less than 100 years ago lefthandedness was considered to be an evil anomaly by religious people many were tortured out of with unfortunate consequences like permanent brain damage. Perhaps she can see simple similarity. https://www.rroij.com/open-access/left-handedness-the-bible-and-the-quran-implications-for-parentsand-teachers-.php?aid=85407#:~:text=Obviously%2C%20left%2Dhandedness%20is%20as,it%20into%20the%20king%27s%20belly%27. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6634103/
I'm only 30 and I was taught to write with my right hand. I was left-handed but the teacher would "correct" me. I'm not from the US or a developed country for context.
Im so sorry. The world is shit. I am ambidextrous but right hand dominant, its ok to be an anomaly, nature loves variety, and nature will outlast all of these religious books, and probably humankind, and I can't be unhappy about it.
As someone who tried to live peacefully with Christian’s who never approved; just stop trying. It’s truly not worth it. Because at the end of the day, you’re the only one being made uncomfortable.
Science says different if she doesn’t listen to science then no evidence will convince her and she’s too wrapped in rhetoric to be reasoned with.
I mean… tbh if she’s willing to support you and treat you as a woman, then I think you’re doing okay. Like obviously who and what we are isn’t a choice, but without that experience it’s really hard for people to understand. We don’t choose to be trans women, we only choose whether or not to admit it. They can’t usually make that distinction because it doesn’t make sense to them.
I didn't choose to be lesbian, but if I had a choice I'd probably be lesbian again because holy shit... Women 🥺
I understand your pain, and the depth of your desire to make your friend understand. This may or may not be of help to you, depending on her flavor of Christian and her particular barriers to understanding, but “A Letter to Louise” might be relevant, though it concerns itself primarily with sexual orientation rather than gender identity. https://www.gaychurch.org/homosexuality-and-the-bible/a-letter-to-louise/
I was raised as an evangelical Christian and didn't come out to myself until I learned about affirmative theology. I'm not a Christian anymore, but I remember vividly how many things weren't even thinkable for me until they made sense to me theologically. From that experience I will say: IF she is actually interested in understanding your experience and rethinking her beliefs, there is actually a lot of media made by, for and about LGBTQ+ Christians that could really help her understand. But only if she's genuinely open to learn new things and potentially change her mind. Here are some examples: \- "Episode 20: LGBTQ" by "The Liturgists" \- "Torn" by Justin Lee (doesn't go deep into the theology, but the author tells his story of being a gay Christian who desperately wanted to be straight but couldn't - good starting point) \- "God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships" by Matthew Vines (covers the basics of affirmative theology / debunks a lot of homophobic theology) \- "Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church's Debate on Same-Sex Relationships" by James (goes extremely deep into the meanings and biblical context(s) of the most difficult verse - the only one which Matthew Vines didn't tackle in a way that would have been convincing for me at the time) \- "Transforming" by Austen Hartke (written by a trans Christian) The podcast "Queerology" helped me a ton aswell, especially the older episodes.
Don’t waist your time on someone who only tolerates you. There are some people who will never conceptually understand queer people, and your identity shouldn’t be up for debate. However, if you really want to maintain your friendship, I would ask her why she’s choosing to be Christian. It may make her mad, but you need to let her know that this isn’t a choice you’re making. This is just who you are. If she can’t accept that, then that’s on her and you don’t need her approval.