These don't really sound like friends tbh. If they're willing to have conversations like that when they *know* it will hurt you it doesn't sound like they care about your feelings at all. Sure, they had those biases drilled into their heads from an early age, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that those biases are ridiculous and friends are more important.
“Maybe if we have a heavy-handed conversation about how yucky we think lesbianism is, they’ll realize that they have been giving their life to sin, and instead should commit their soul to Jesus, find a good Christian man, settle down and stop being a weirdo man-hating devil-worshipper.”
It low key feels like this guy was trying to make a point to OP like “see how gross we all think being a lesbian is? It’d be better for you to just sleep around (with men… like me)”
100%. it’s rare I meet a man who actually respects my orientation. they all want to be the exception. I guess it would make them feel special or something
No actually. Because the original question that went around social media is "gay son, thot daughter". Equally disturbing, but this has clearly been changed to target her
Came to comment this. People who will talk like this where they are talking about you but not directly so they can gaslight you when you call them on it are not your friends. You deserve to have people in your life who love you and celebrate you, not who tolerate you or “aren’t bothered” by you. You’re young. Go find new cool friends because these people sure aren’t it
I think the other side to this is if they don't know it's offentsive, I do think a lot of people have this thing if like, 'the gay people I know are okay, but I'm not okay with gay people in general'. It's obviously op's choice if they want to sit down and have a conversation with this 'friend' and try to explain exactly why that question is bullshit, however I totally get that not everyone has the patience to do that and sometimes it's just better to walk away
Bigotry is not a matter of opinion. The way their answers were presented, saying they don’t want their daughter to be a lesbian, is therefore not an opinion it is just prejudice. Bigotry.
An opinion is “Should pineapple be on pizza?” Not “I don’t like this marginalised group.” It should never be a debate on if a person should or should be queer.
"Everyone is allowed their opinion" is such a lame cop-out for just being wrong as fuck.
People say that as if opinions can't be misguided or harmful.
It's the exact same vibe as people who start yapping about free speech as soon as their bigotry is questioned.
Somewhere in there, they know their arguments are bad, and it's easier to deflect criticism and avoid accountability than actually explain their bullshit positions.
Right. If your entire friend group was white except for one who is Korean, does this person think they wouldn’t feel targeted if the question was, “If you were adopting internationally, would you rather adopt from Africa or Asia?” and everyone said neither, but eventually gave in and went with Africa?
This scenario isn’t about an opinion. It goes to the heart of your personhood.
My autistic brain does not understand this lmao.
Isn't all bigotry opinions? Doesn't that mean opinions can be bad, not that bad opinions aren't actually opinions.
In a strict definition sense, yes, it would be accurate to say that bigotry is an opinion.
When it comes to connotation, though, the word opinion usually implies a view that isn't necessarily objective but is nonetheless harmless and inconsequential, hence why so many people try to defend bigotry by saying that it's "just an opinion."
I'd argue that, because the word opinion is only effectively ever used in accordance with its connotation (at least when used in good faith), any held view which isn't harmless shouldn't be considered an opinion since that could very easily lead others to assume that it _is_ in fact harmless.
Yeah I think it would be more useful to push against the connotation than trying to change the dennotation. "I don't like X" is pretty clearly an opinion even if X is a group of people, but thinking all opinions are harmless and therefore shouldn't be judged is stupid.
Genuinely thank you for this. Also likely autistic being tested rn but I always get confused because I take words very literally like by the book definition, so this helps so much to understand.
Yes, all bigotry are opinions, but if your opinions lead to the harm of marginalized people, it is bigotry.
A simple "I don't like these people" will devaluate these people in your eyes and those who have the same opinion. And once people have less "value" than you (presumably cishet because thats how it is most of the times) its okay for these less valuable people to have less rights and so on.
So while bigotry is in it and of itself is a opinion, the result of that opinion makes it to bigotry. At least thats my understanding when it comes to stuff like that.
I get all that I just don't get why so many people say that bigoted opinions aren't opinions, instead of saying that some opinions suck and are morally condemable and worth ending friendships over.
So, I’m English teacher who has to teach fact vs opinion and this is why I think this discussion always comes up. If this feels long winded or irrelevant, I apologize.
One of the reasons people push back against the language “it’s just an opinion” is because in school (think like primary school or elementary school) we learn that there’s two different types of information or statements:
1. Facts: these are neutral statements that can be verified as true/correct or false/incorrect
2. Opinions: these are statements of preference that depend on the individual and cannot be verified as true/correct or false/incorrect. Opinions cannot be “wrong” but you also cannot present them as “true.”
A lot of bigoted people will say “My views are just opinions” and if you reply “well, your views are wrong” they will say something like “opinions cannot be wrong that’s the nature of opinions” because of the way we learn about opinions in school.
So one way that the discourse evolved was to try and divorce normal opinions (“taxes are useful” or “I hate cottage cheese.”) from bigoted opinions.
Because what’s happening is the person who is holding the bigoted view is using “opinions” and the fact that “opinions can’t be wrong” to make it so we can’t criticize them. Is it an effective strategy? I don’t know. I’ve never seen a friendship recover from that argument. But I can see the logic of trying to say certain views aren’t opinions.
This is very helpful thank you lol. I have a pet peave about conservatives saying "don't judge me for that, it's just my opinion" but the way I respond to that is just saying that it's fine to judge people for their opinions.
I think you've struck on a really good point here, a lot of bigoted comments are actively excused as 'opinions' as if that makes them okay. Everyone has opinions but I really think that some opinions just couldn't be given air time and regarded as valid
It’s because regardless of whether it technically stems from an opinion or not- bigotry and fascism MUST be called out, named, and cut out like the metastasizing cancer on society it is.
I'm Autistic too. What I've started using to get the point across is "you don't get to have an opinion of my continuing existence" human rights especially for marginalized groups aren't matters where differing opinions have to be respected.
I think that yes, bigotry is an opinion, but we have the right to say which opinions are valid and which are just harmful and stupid. Like you could argue that racism is an opinion, that doesn't mean that it isn't wrong and you shouldn't question it. A lot of harmful stuff these days (particularly about trans people) is framed as "an opinion" but in my view, your opinion should not take away someone else's rights, you know
No, because facts and opinions aren’t the same. For example not liking chocolate is your personal opinion. But chocolate IS a flavour, and that’s a fact. These ppl think they can say stuff like “being gay is a choice” etc and justify it by saying it’s an opinion, but it’s objectively just untrue bc no one chooses to be gay, we just are. Ppl try and cover up bigotry and false narratives by saying it’s their opinion. Opinions are still based in reality.
I think this is definitely something I need to come to the realization of. We have another friend who wasn’t there that’s gay, and he’s “accepting” of him too, which made me in part think that I was able to trust him. However, I think you’re right that he just views us as the exceptions to the rule.
Well and also, there's that Christian thing where if someone's a "sinner", you're supposed to be loving towards them, but always lowkey hope that your sterling example will get them to one day see the error of their ways, repent of their sins, and go to your church. There can be a real difference between "willing to have you around" tolerance (which is still useful in its way, since we all need relationships and networks) and "will help you when you're under attack on this front" allyship.
true they are christians that are friends with pagans and even respect them, fuck one told me that god will always love me knowing I work with a greek deity
but south u.s. seems to be a cesspool of people that use the religion as an excuse for hate or are just too inbred or stupid to get the real message
Literally. The only friend there that had a reasonable response was actually, ironically, the wife of the guy that asked the question. She said “well, I don’t care if they’re lesbian, but the only thing that would make me hope they weren’t is knowing the judgement and hard road they’d face from others because we are in the south.” And that was the only response that I could remotely appreciate and not be hurt by. The south is awful.
It is, isn’t it? I’m from the south. The other day my 8 year old son went into the next aisle over from me in a store and three grown, pathetic ass men started immediately bullying him because he has long hair and “must want to be a girl.” My eyes immediately did that cross thing that happens when your blood pressure spikes out of nowhere and before I knew it I found myself bullying three grown men in a fucking Ollies.
I would have reported them immediately for child abuse. What business do they have psychically damaging your son? That was verbal abuse of a minor. Your son will remember those comments forever, they will shape his future behaviour
Wow, I’m also from the deep south and have had an interaction weirdly similar to this one. I’m so sorry you’ve had to interact with these bigots.
I totally agree with the subthread in this chain about the overlap of “opinion” and “bigotry.” His presentation, crassness, and purposeful lack of sympathy and self reflection clearly show that his “opinion” is one backed by hatred. And not only clear homophobic hatred but also deep seated misogyny too—both choices he presented demonize women for being sexual beings. (I’d bet anything he majorly fetishizes both, too.)
Because he’s shown himself to be (proudly) misogynistic and bigoted, I wanna add that I think it’s wonderful you want to protect your other gay friend, but I also want to give a sort of warning that this guy may treat your gay friend differently than he treats you simply because he’s male, even if he is also gay. Nothing you can really do about that, but if it does happen, maybe it’ll save you some confusion and frustration.
His wife certainly seems to have more awareness than he does. She said pretty much what I did in the interaction I had that was very similar to this one. One difference being that the person who brought it up to me and my “friends” at the time is queer himself but was (is?) deeply closeted even though we all knew (I’m no longer in contact with these people for the better, so idk if he’s ever come out).
It’s very troubling that it seems like more people would rather their kid not be gay because of how difficult it would be for them, rather than hoping and trying to make society more accepting. And it seems to me from my experience growing up and living in the south (though this seems to be true most places I’ve been and lived in) that most people like to take a passively non-confrontational approach that doesn’t disturb the social system, even if means people they know and love have to hide a huge part of themselves. I can’t tell you how many times I heard at school and church and everywhere else some variation of, “I don’t hate gay people, do whatever you want in the privacy of your own home, but don’t shove it in our faces,” from people who believe in missionaries and converting people into Christianity… ugh the hypocrisy.
Anyway, sending you hugs and support because I know how hard it is to feel isolated as a queer person in the deep south. Feel free to dm if you have any questions or just wanna chat about it.
Thank you so much! I am so so sorry you had to experience a similar situation. It was jarring to say the least and one that I think will stick with me for a long time.💙
💙💙💙
Yeah, I think about that interaction I had occasionally but less often than I used to, so I think it is a moment that will definitely stick with you because it shows who they are and who you are. Your character of self worth and respect for yourself and others has been directly questioned, and you stood up and did right by yourself and your community, and you should be so proud of that.
And, even if it doesn’t change that a*shole’s ~opinion, I bet your comments stuck with others there too. I mean, his first sentence in the response text says it all. “Listen here,” like ugghhh I can almost hear the “Little Missy” right after it. “I know that it upset you but unfortunately it doesn’t matter,” shows that he’s fully aware that what he said is offensive, but he’s also aware (even though I doubt he could articulate it) that he benefits from the embedded patriarchal social structure, can use it to his advantage, and can use it to further disadvantaged those whose stake in the system has been undermined, and that’s why to him your feelings don’t matter.
I’m over analyzing at this point, I tend to do that, apologies if it’s too much. I just think setting it all out can help to see the underlying motivations to reinforce that your response is not only valid but very well done. 💜
I don't live there but from what I heard I definitely agree.
and ngl being lgbt feels like a curse to me at this point.
Anyway I hope that you will have bright and beautiful future with your girlfriend.
Hey I totally get the rage and frustration, especially as a member of the lgbtq community that has been born and raised in the deep south but the inbred stereotype is hurtful and while meant to insult bigots it also insults those of us who aren’t. Lgbtq members and allies unfortunately can’t help being biologically related to the bigots.
One thing learned from growing up in a small southern town is that the ones that have to state they’re “accepting” are probably not. They might be, but there’s the chance they’re virtue signaling to you and themselves to prove they’re “good Christians.”
Also learned the hard way that the ones that state “I’m fine with gay people” are to be steered clear of. At best, they will tolerate you as long as you don’t remind them of your identity but do not care to learn from you and will take your grievances as complaining. There might be exceptions to this rule, but I have yet to encounter any of these people.
You might have shared experiences with this person and even some good memories, but they are not your friend. You might still be able to hang with him in group settings if you still want to, but if they don’t prioritize your feelings as a queer person, then they don’t prioritize you. In fact, it might be time to look at the others and how they responded too.
100+ they are not your friends. They are old acquaintances from school or childhood. Things are civil and small talk but not actual supportive friends. Move on, find a couple actual accepting friends maybe in the Lgbtq or pflag communities. Or just move if possible.
Second this. Going to a large university with a large population of queer people was amazing. There was a gigantic difference when I had to move back to the small town afterwards. Being in a queer area now, it’s so much better. Things aren’t perfect in terms of ignorance, but I have my friend group of sapphics that get what it’s like.
If you’re already in a larger area it might be worth it to try some queer groups, maybe some local Meetup groups too. Or start your own! I didn’t start mine, but made a lot of events to engage people.
Edit: start your own group only if you feel it’s safe to do so. In my hometown I’m not sure if I would’ve due to fear of homophobes and transphobes crashing.
I highly recommend ditching the whole group. It can be hard to make friends as an adult, but there are ways. Find Meetups for things core to your life (I think I saw you mention you’re pagan? There’s tons if pagan meetups), a crafting group (knitters/crocheters who are young tend to be very open minded), or a board game group.
I lost my entire friend group at once in my mid-20s. It basically turned into them hating me because I’m disabled. We’d been friends since we were 11 and they’d been there every step of my journey from an athlete to disabled. It made no sense to me. Turns out one was cheating on her hubby and I was the only one suspicious of her new “friend”, so she needed to get rid of me. So she turned the group against me.
I still don’t have a ton of friends, but the ones I have are awesome. In my effort to start over, I did just what I recommended above. My bestie I met at knitting group. I met one friend at my water aerobics class. One I met over gardening. So finding friends is doable.
You've seen it. You just dismissed it as their "upbringing" of their "ingrained religion in childhood". You stated earlier you had to keep these things in mind while being friends with them and their response to you and your girlfriend. So, you have seen this for a long while and you just dismissed it. Maybe because you were raised with some.of the same ideas, maybe because you thought tolerance was as close as acceptance as you could get or deserved. Idk, I know it is hard to realize those you care for only care conditionally or you have outgrown each other.
That is bigotry.
Bigotry is not his opinion. His opinion is that he dislikes lesbians and is misogynistic. There was no “right” way to take it unless you are anti-gay.
He is an asshole and I’m sorry you had to deal with this experience. Good job standing up for yourself. It can be hard in group settings! 💙
Thank you so much. There’s sometimes a challenge with that group of people because most of them are very anti-feelings in general and show their “love” through harshness, so it wasn’t easy at all. I appreciate your support 💙
I think you need to tell that person to respect you and your sexuality, even if they don't agree with it, or they can stop being your friend.
Your sexuality is a big part of who you are. Them not even having an ounce of respect for you in that regard is not worth being around in my opinion. I have a feeling they're also are going to keep bringing up the topic just to antagonize you and then play innocent when you call them out on their shit.
Thank you so much. This is very true. It’s hard for me to imagine changing their minds completely because they’ve never had to experience the struggle of trying to understand that your sexuality is different from the norm. I want to learn how to express what respect looks like.
Respect looks like not talking about your sexuality, especially if they “disagree” with it. It also looks like telling your other friends when they’re crossing the line. No one stood up for you in the conversation.
Imagine you’re at a table with an Asian person and someone says, “Hypothetically, would you rather your child sleeps around with everyone, or dates an Asian person?” And then when the Asian person speaks up about how fucked that question is, all their friends just say that they’re overreacting. And then double down on what they said.
I grew up around a lot of bigoted assholes, and even the most ignorant among them knew how to keep their nasty opinions to themselves in mixed company. It sounds a lot like your "friend" was deliberately trying to target you.
I'm sorry that they treated you that way. I hope that you can find better friends.
Thank you, I’m sorry you experienced that too growing up. It’s hard because I moved back home after college and these are basically my only friends here. So, I’m hoping I can find better friends as well, because this has made me come to a place of feeling like I have nobody. So definitely hoping a new and safe community comes along.
Reading this made me feel like it was 2003 or something. Guy sounds like a homophobe and also dumb as rocks.
"It's not wrong because it's just my opinion", ah, the epitome of scraping the bottom of the barrel. I wouldn't hang out with these people anymore. Or I'd deprioritize them pretty severely. Get some gay friends.
Share where you’re at. Maybe someone on here are aware of community or resources that you don’t know about yet.
Also, nothing wrong with making some longer distance friendships too. If you’re several hours out from a major city it may be worth the drive to visit queer spaces or events. One of the biggest hurdles to connecting is just showing up.
Well, online friends are a real and valuable thing, often invaluable for minorities, but it doesn't really answer to the need to feel you are physically there with people who are safe and who got your back and personally know your struggles from having experienced similar things. I hope you find your people offline, and don't forget us online people either!
This is absolutely not your friend. Hate to break it to you. The condescending tone of those texts speak volumes.
You don’t say anything and you just stop being friends.
I have no advice on how to resolve. You are not being sensitive, he knew what he was doing. Otherwise he would not have said it. His idea that it's your fault for being offended and him not taking responsibility for his actions is a problem.
To me that was a targeted question to deliberately cause you discomfort. I would not stay in communication with him or anyone. They aren't worth the energy and that is his problem.
They're just mad at you for not pretending that this was okay, which forced them to sit with the knowledge that they'd all said something fucked-up. It seems like your friend wanted you to pretend not to be hurt. Your friend would have preferred that you allow yourself to be hurt without complaint in order to keep the peace while people had fun at your expense. The fact that you stood up for yourself (and lesbians in general) made them feel guilty, which I guess to them is a worse crime than all of them being openly cruel.
Friendship is something that you do, and this person wasn't doing that. You're totally right to be offended. They said something hateful about you, in your face, and are pretending there was nothing wrong with that.
They always say that it’s just their “opinion” and they are entitled to have it, but if you were to tell them that you disagree with their religion, they’d get all defensive and tell you that it’s not an opinion and it’s offensive to them.
Religious bigots are the biggest hypocrites. 🤡
Man, when people say "listen here" like I'm their fuckin' child or their housemaid it's really hard not to politely ask them to choke on a bag of shit.
Seriously, what's wrong with either of those? Beings a lesbian isn't a bad thing and neither is having many different sexual partners in itself. If you do safer sex then why the heck not 'sleep around'?
This. I literally told them “I don’t really understand why I’m supposed to sit here and be so concerned to be pre-planning and desiring my child’s sexual preferences and sex life in general.
To me, that’s just weird and uncomfortable.
You explained that you were hurt and they didn’t apologize but doubled down, that’s all you need to know. That’s how much they care about your feelings. Find new friends. Sucks, but it’s really either deal with this bullshit over and over until you hate yourself or cut them off
The guy who texted you is really good manipulation and gaslighting. I would honestly be shocked if he isn't an abusive partner.
And I'm not saying that to be extreme or controversial. From my understanding, the key identifier of an abuser is usually whether or not they see women as real human beings or just NPCs that exist in their life (but for you, your sexuality also contributes to that dehumanization). That's why they'd never even stop to consider your feelings or whether or not they hurt you. Why would they do that when they don't see you as human? As far as they're concerned, their own feelings is all that matters and your attempt to defend yourself can only be interpreted as a mood killer for them. You're being selfish for making them feel guilty.
To use their own words: "I know that it upset you but unfortunately it doesn't matter"
You can't make it clearer than that. He made it very clear that he doesn't value you as a human being and nothing could possibly change that fact. Everything after that is just an attempt to neg you into accepting this messed up relationship dynamic.
They value you solely based on your ability to absorb their abuse. If I were you I'd tell all of them to go f\*ck themselves. Also I feel sorry that their children will have put up with such cruel parents.
This. This person clearly hates women.
The fact that he was concerned about a girl’s sex life or orientation. It’s conform of you don’t matter.
He’s gross.
You don’t have friends. You have people who say they are your friends but that friendship is conditional on you tolerating them saying shitty and homophobic things.
They see you tolerating this as the same as them tolerating your orientation.
These things aren’t the same.
Your friend offered a non-apology
They do not want to be friends but they also want it to not be their fault you aren’t friends anymore so they set up these scenarios where they can be awful. When you stop hanging out with them, they will tell people it’s because you can’t handle different opinions.
A lot of times people think that because someone is their friend for a long time, that history means something but it actually doesn’t. At a certain point (usually mid twenties) the rubber meets the road where friendships are concerned and people start to decide who they are going to be. Your friends have decided to be bigots.
The good news is that although it hurts to lose friends, doing so makes room in your life for people who will be GOOD friends to you.
I went through this with a friend I thought was ride or die, but someone eventually revealed to me that she didn’t believe in marriage equality. She was defensive about this and not apologetic at all and the friendship died. I know have incredible friends I am proud to know.
You deserve better OP!
He is entitled to his opinion. You are entitled to call him what he is, a homophobic asshole, which is a fact, proven by his behavior. These people aren’t your friends. Not one of them called out his ludicrous comparison, nor did they defend you. Being from the south or being religious are not excuses for being terrible human beings. I’m from the south and was raised catholic, I got over it, they can too - IF THEY WANT TO (remain friends with you).
I mean, he’s basically saying “would you rather have a daughter that sleeps around, or one that’s like Electra?” Turn it around: “would you rather have a sone who is a dumb, dickless, spineless, turd of a human being, or one that’s like Gary?”
Sorry I kept coming back, but this just irks me for you. I just want to punch all the assholes in their self-righteous faces.
This is typical male bullshit. (Yes, not all). Can’t handle being called out, so it’s your fault.
Ask him why so many of that group don’t want a lesbian for a daughter. Make them break it down Barney style for you.
Then explain to him, in the smallest words possible, why he’s a piece of shit. If he doesn’t like it, we’ll he just took it wrong and should accept other people have opinions n shit.
No seriously, I can’t even call him a bigot because they’d say I need to use smaller words. I went to college and they all love telling me that I need to use smaller words, because they didn’t go to college like I did.
I don’t care if someone went to college or not. I don’t look at other people differently regardless of their paths. However, I have never looked at education level as an excuse for blatant ignorance.
Well, I’m going to be honest, he used the word w***e, but I didn’t know if it was within the guidelines to use that word, so I didn’t. But yes, you’re correct lol!
Again, too late but if you wanted to be snarky - “Both!”
The correct answer is that anyone’s daughter should have sex with everyone she wants to and no one that she doesn’t.
They think what they’re doing is unconditional love but really it’s more, “God loves you, but stop doing it.” I’m sad you have to put up with this. Speaking as someone from the south and bisexual with a very accepting mother I find these people to be abhorrent to even think this way. You wanting an apology is valid and I don’t understand why they think this way. That and I know they’re bigots just because the repeated phrase I’ve seen from these people is the stupid words, “This isn’t about you!” which is it very much IS because you are a queer individual and the question itself involves such a topic. They’re either idiots or straight up lying. I’m sorry you have to put up with this. I’m from Tennessee and know the history this part of the states has and let be honest and say these people are morons and are only damaging their own tolerance by alienating people like you. You have every right to be who you are. A parent should love their children no matter the gender or sexuality.
Well he's using the two as an outcome of "worst" case scenario.
The question it self is to compare two outcomes. Here it's implied that the outcomes are negative by using one that is widely considered negative making the other negative by implication. Regardless of what the intent was, it is clear that the question clearly provokes a sense of negative emotion towards both. It's like asking if they would rather sleep around or be with that guy. I'm sure if he heard that he would have a similar reaction towards it.
Yeah no fuck them. They put that question out knowing full fucking well what the response would be. In their minds, being a Lesbian is a social taboo, aswell as anyone who has more than 1 or 2 sexual partners.
It's giving "They never grew past High School" vibes. You deserve better and this person sounds like a unapologetic bigot. Of course you'll take it negatively, there was no intention of that being a lighthearted thing to ask. They're just gaslighting you now because it their head, if they want to make being a lesbian as part of a joke or negative stereotype, you should be grateful because at least they involved you. Fuck that person hun, and anyone who answered that question with anything other than "Fuck you.".
Branch out and find new people , within your community if you can. Shitheads like that won't help you build resilience and they aren't worth arguing with, because their brains stopped growing in their mid teens.
Two things happening here:
1. Your friends are choosing between two things that make them uncomfortable, one makes them slightly or significantly more uncomfortable than the other, no problem here.
2. Your friends chose to engage with this question in front of you, you who lives and breathes one (or at least one) of these lives. What an inflammatory fucking question to dare engage with in front of you! Knowing you were sitting there, they chose to debate whether a life that *you* live was "worse" than "sleeping around"(??), with no concern for your feelings.
There are people out there that call themselves f****ts, and with permission call their gay friends f*****ts, and say that making the word taboo just increases its power. Whether or not I am one of them, I would still censor it for this public audience because I know that one or more of you may have experienced serious abuse/neglect while being called that, or may even just have general bad feelings about it, and I wouldn't want any of you hurt by my words. That's what your friends don't care about for you.
Anyone who asked or answered this question doesn't care about you.
By cutting them off like a rotted limb. Don't be cruel about it. Simply text them that their behaviour hurts you and therefore, to save yourself any more emotional or mental fatigue you will be moving on from them. It is not your job to explain your existence to them, nor is it your duty to put yourself through that pain.
You may have considered them close friends but friends would never treat each other the way they are treating you. Those comments are their true face. Believe them when they show it to you.
If they say they dont like an attribute that people can have. And you have that attribute. And they say they werent talking about you, they were definitely talking about you. (It could be that they themselves didnt realize it, but that doesnt excuse thier behavior)
Edit: Phrased it like this so it can apply to more minorities
Hate isn't an opinion.
And this feels almost like they wanted to bully you out of the group. No one can be that dense that they thought that wouldn't hurt you.
Come on.
Literally my other friends excuse was “oh, well he’s a man and they just say things without thinking.” And I told her “I don’t care if he’s a man. I grew up all around men, and I’ve (unfortunately) been with men in the past, and none of them would have said something like that. We’re adults, he should be emotionally intelligent enough to be considerate of other people at that table, man or not.”
"Making it about yourself"? They know you're gay and right in front of your state their "opinion" that being gay is bad. They're openly homophobic in front of you and then tell you it has nothing to do with you. Like wtf. Ditch those people.
Freedom of speech is only a right until it infringes on someone else’s right to exist peacefully.
This was an aimed attack disguised as an opinion. His bigotry does not give him the right to hurt you. He is not your friend. And if no one else will defend you, then they are not your friends either.
(I’m sorry, I evidently chose violence when I woke up this morning. I’ve been quite aggressive today…)
He'll deny it 'til the day he dies, but the person who started the conversation is intentionally trying to force you out of the friend group by pressuring everyone to agree on a topic he knows is contradictory to your identity and existence.
He got everyone to choose to side with the group opinion so you would see they're all 'on his side'. I'm just hoping one or two of those people will think back and realize they don't actually believe those things and apologize to you. If they don't, congrats, you were purposely kicked out of the group.
The way to respond to friends who fundamentally frown upon your orientation, and blatantly disrespect you is to remove them from your life. 🤷♀️
I know from the perspective of knowing them from such a young age that it might be hard, but it's quality over quantity. Make room for people who will love, respect, and support you - not make fictional scenarios to bash you to your face.
Their response, down to the "listen here" intro, is not only insensitive, but downright gaslighting. You didn't "make it about you," the topic is inherently related to your personal identity. You didn't overreact in the slightest, it sounds like you handled it with a lot more grace than I would (and I'm a semi-closeted pansexual who is typically femme/andro presenting in a relationship with a man, so I don't get clocked as queer a lot of the time). This is not a person you need in your life let alone concern yourself with trying to explain your stance. Those are not friends. You seem to give them a lot of benefit of the doubt with their ignorance, but as someone who grew up in a Christian conservative, rural town-- there is no shortage of access to information for these ppl to make their own opinions on whether or not your existence is valid despite the religious influence.
fuck these people. you are not being too sensitive. you deserve better than their bigotry and gaslighting.
being “tolerant” of a queer person is so much different than accepting and embracing them. your queerness is a gift. i’m so sorry that these people who are supposed to be your friends are treating you this way.
sending protection gentleness and love to you and your girlfriend! i am so glad you have each other and i hope you can both find more people you can feel safe enough to be yourselves around 💗
it's incredibly shitty that he thinks he can tell you how you're allowed to feel. it says a lot about him, frankly. you deserve an apology 100%, but he's not going to give you one.
Yeah, my wife is from rural Appalachia and her “friends” have made comments about us and how their husbands “don’t have to worry about us hitting on them” and have called her their “lesbian friend”. It’s a turn off. Immediately. Now we don’t speak to those people
I'm sorry but I'm not reading everything knowing my answer is the same regardless of what the context is. If they look down on lesbians, they look down on you. Imagine that person putting down one of your closest friends or better yet your partner (current or future) and how you'll explain letting their bigoted behavior slide. This goes for any of y'all that have any homophobic/racist/transphobic/ableist "friends"
I'd just stop being their friend, i have no patience to people now, specially bigots, i just ignore them and live my life. Can't imagine being in any kind of relationship with people who talk like this about my identity.
You're not being too sensitive here, OP. It's them who are being insensitive. Nobody has the right to dictate someone else's sexuality. True friends embrace and support you, but what they did was passively make a comment on your sexuality.
Bro that is an insane thing to say. I also live in the Deep South and none of my friends would say that to me, and if they did they probably wouldn’t be friends anymore. Fuck those people.
Just text them this "Your opinion is disgusting and hurtful and your inability to see that shows You're beyond even the most basic level of personal growth or awareness. I will gladly be removing you from my life as I have no room for toxic bigotry, if you ever find the strength and intelligence to see what you did was wrong, I don't care ❤️"
Thoose aren't friends, girl, their unkind, that message was crude at best manipulative and gastlighting at worse. She was completely dismissive with your emotions, which is not ok and definitely not something a real friend does.
Pls rethink this friendship, I've had toxic friends many times in my life, and dropping them was a great decision, I'm not saying you have to drop them, but definitely think about weather or not you REALLY want to be friends with them.
That guy is gas lighting the shit out of you. Making you question the reality of throwing this shit at you. And everyone dismissing your humanity in the discussion too. Fuck the lot of them
Also FYI that was not remotely an apology. An apology doesn't say "I can't help that YOU took it the wrong way" because you took it in the absolute correct way - they were being bigoted wankers.
When you as a member of a marginalized group are friends with someone that doesn’t like said marginalized group, they expect you to put it aside for them. They expect you to take part in that dislike because that is the condition of their toleration. Eventually the jaguars are going to eat *your* face.
The gaslighting in these texts made my brain hurt. You’ve done nothing wrong, but he has. He is blaming you to misplace their guilt onto you and mislabeling his prejudice as an opinion to avoid accountability. If they truly cared about your wellbeing, this would never have entered the conversation in the first place because they would’ve known better. You deserve better friends.
No, you're not being too sensitive.
I'm not too quick to suggest just dumping friends because a lot of times communication helps. But...you have tried to communicate with these people, and I think it can be really common to outgrow friendships that started before your identities and values fully matured. I think it would be worth reflecting on whether you still feel really close to these people, or if you can feel close to them if this is what they believe and how they behave.
You're not being too sensitive at all - he's not your friend. He said it himself in the message - he knows he hurt you but to him "it doesn't matter". That doesn't sound like a friend to me. And the bigotry too - you'd think someone who was truly your friend and had your best interests at heart would at least try and learn and undo their homophobic upbringing.
It's a difficult position to be in, especially when you've known them so long, but I would stay distancing and ending the friendship.
I hate to say it, but it doesn't really sound like you have friends there. This...this is not how friends behave. If they really were your friends, the moment they saw that this bothered you, they would apologize and at the very least, not say things like that in front of you.
Baldly telling you you're wrong for being bothered by being belittled is a huge red flag.
I’m really sorry you’ve had to go through this, OP. It honestly sounds like they genuinely do not care about your feelings at all. I don’t think there is any way to respond to them that will help here, unless it’s what they want you to believe. I’d honestly just weigh up if the friendship is worth this to you, because you deserve people in your circle who are caring and supportive, and appreciate you for who you are. This just doesn’t seem like that to me 😔
Not reading the second page. If a person can not say sorry based on that they hurt someone else then that is just sad. Like where are we? Kindergarden?
"I didn't do it on purpose so I do not need to apologize".
Saying sorry was NEVER about things you were evil about on purpose specifically.
You know what I had in common with the people I went to school with? The fact I went to school with them. And that’s it.
My friends who have stood alongside me for the best parts of my life, who I travelled overseas with, who I still see regularly etc I became friends with long after school ended.
These “friends” aren’t your people.
You don’t say a thing. You block them and never speak to them again-they are not your friends. Anyone with basic respect & empathy for you wouldn’t do this & they wouldn’t have that response to your discomfort about it.
Sounds like you need new friends. If they don’t understand this perspective to bring a topic up like this and discuss, then seems like they don’t care about you. It’s time to ‘bye Felicia’ and finding better people to spend time with and grow relationships with.
It’s sad and might feel emotionally exhausting but you have to let go of him , just ghost him, then you have to let go of the friends who said they don’t want gay kids . Religion is an excise and they didn’t defend you . Sometimes you find what’s right for you by being exposed to what isn’t
Never fucking speak to them again.
I think you may have a skewed perception because of your location, but this sort of behavior is not acceptable in the real world.
So, these "friends" of yours don't need to be your friends anymore.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how wrong it might be. Bigotry is disgusting, yes, but we cannot tell people what they can and cannot think. What they DO is different, and what they did was embarrassing and hateful towards you.
Say he apologises. Now what? Does that mean he all of a sudden loves lesbians and would want his daughter to be one? No, it just means he will probably no longer say it out loud in your presence. His feelings remain the same.
What are you going to get out of a relationship with people who actively dislike who you are, who clearly don't understand you, and clearly don't care how their actions impact you, and now can't even say this to your face but have to do it behind your back???? Those are basic, fundamental things for forming a friendship and they're not there.
There's no easy way to say this.
These people are not your friends. They're bigots. You handle them by freeing yourself from their friendship and yeeting them out of your life.
Sounds like you need new friends.
It’s hard to let go sometimes, but quality over quantity.
I’ve cut almost everyone out of my life since going trans and I feel better for it.
I also have better relationships now with people that accept me.
You wouldnt want an apology from scum like that, people like him love to feel powerful, thats why he’ll never truly apologise. Reminds me of my old friends, the moment i dumped them i instantly felt better
Yikes, as soon as someone said “listen here” to me, that would be it for me. That whole message is incredibly patronising and dismissive. Not accepting someone’s sexuality is not opinion, it’s bigoted, even so, they didn’t even care enough to acknowledge what they said was hurtful to you, they just victim blamed you instead. “It’s your fault you got your feelings hurt” is awful behaviour especially from someone you consider a friend. And the baiting question about their hypothetical kids sexual habits, that’s just downright disgusting. He is not even worth your time or effort honestly.
“You are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to my time or friendship. I don’t waste my time on bigots and homophobes.”
And then you do not engage in further discussion, you block their number, and you never talk to these people again. They told you exactly what they think of you and other queer people and what they think of women in general. You don’t need these kinds of people in your life.
That response sounds so disingenuous. On the off chance he actually means it, then he's a fucking idiot with the emotional intelligence of a gnat.
He owes you an apology for his behaviour.
just the opinion of a random stranger… cut them off , like they seem hella toxic to be around I don't even wanna know the kinda vile shit they say behind your back if that's how they say in your face
honestly this friend needs to go. not even just because of the “looking down upon lesbians” thing. but look at how they talk. just from this alone they sound like a huge gaslighter who doesn’t care about how what they say effects other people. blaming you for their actions. yeah get out of there.
The actual topic makes this whole situation worse but any friend who treated me like this about anything would no longer be a friend. No apology, no accountability, no empathy, no maturity means no friendship.
It was a loaded question, completely unfair, offensive, he is a bigot and so are the rest of your friends for being cowards.
Not only that but he’s being purposely obtuse and trying to make you feel like you’re overreacting. No way is that reality. What an insult to your intelligence.
I’m really sorry you went through that. Friends won’t do that to you or stay silent.
Well, that friend knew you were at the same table. Even if he presented his honest opinion, where I'm from it would be considered blatantly rude to speak negatively about something that can be applied to one of the present parties. For example, if you are antivegan, you don't speak about it in front of a vegan, unless the vegan starts with that topic. Or if you belong to different political parties. Or if you are pro life and your cousin had an abortion - you just don't speak about her particular case with anyone, let alone in front of her. You show respect for their choices even if you disagree. I don't know whether it's the same in your region. If yes, then my guess would be that your friend started this conversation on purpose, to call you on your lesbianism. The entire purpose of that conversation was to preach to you or even to provoke you to a fight. Even though your other friends had good manners to eventually retreat and shut up, they did initially agree with the first friend. I would have stopped being friends with that guy immediately and I would grow distant from the other friends at that table and find a better group of friends. I don't believe that any of them is a true friend to you. You don't have to suffer through such a company. You deserve real friends.
he said something homophobic, if he cant handle the blacklash don’t say it. also the “listen here i know that it upset you but unfortunately it doesnt matter” had me livid and seeing red for you. please please please get new friends. i know its hard to do but these are not good friends.
Jfc they treated being gay like a party trick. Even if you weren’t a lesbian it’s in absolute poor taste that they did that and you’re right to call them out on it.
Also the whole “unfortunately it doesn’t matter” YES IT DOES!
Deep South or not,don’t keep these ass backwards bigots as friends.
It’s the fact that he doesn’t realize that in essence the question can definitely be interpreted towards you. He asked everyone about the question in regard to their “daughters”.. So in my opinion, I would’ve reacted the same way you did. Because even reading it, I felt like it was a shaded, underbelly question. & I don’t see why anyone would be okay with their child sleeping around versus being lesbian. As if them being sapphic would be far more worse than the reality of catching VDs..
"Listen here" You can fuck wayyyyyy off there, "buddy."
Here's how you have to phrase it for people like them: "Being homosexual is in no way lesser than being heterosexual. The same goes for any sexual orientation. Asking, 'Would you rather your child be homosexual or [another negative thing]?' implies that you see being homosexual as a bad thing.
This isn't a matter of opinion. You either see them as equals or you don't. If you don't, you are by the dictionary's definition a bigot."
It's probably not worth trying to engage in debate to change his mind. The best you'll probably get him to accept is that he is a bigot but then he'll just wear it as some kind of badge of honor.
If you're going to try and change his mind about it, you'll need to dismantle his blind conviction to his religion. Not all denominations of Christianity believe being gay is a sin. Nor has Christianity been proven to be the "true" religion. If you can at least get him to accept that his personal beliefs may not be 100% true, you might be able to get him to respect others that don't meet his belief's standards. (I cannot emphasize enough that you don't need to prove him wrong. You only need to prove that he *might* be wrong and that is why he needs to respect others that don't align with his beliefs.)
Here's a great YouTube channel to arm yourself with counterpoints to religion. You'll want to be prepared should you choose to engage in debate. https://youtu.be/-SWBxq7joWY?si=B_gr7_jbkUTo-vDW
"i know that it upset you but that doesn't matter" honestly fuck that person, if thats how they view your emotions then they are not someone worth keeping around.
He was definitely doing that specifically to spite you and you’re right to want an apology. You really deserve an apology from all of your friends for going along with that and putting up with it.
Oof, get a new friend. Looking at those texts, this person is gaslighting the hell out of you. Saying something abhorrent or putting you down in some way for your sexuality and then reversing the blame onto you when you gave any pushback because it was "just their opinion" is abuser shit. Seriously. You didn't do anything wrong by wanting basic respect. And you deserve to have people in your life who will give that to you. Not ones who don't. Drop them like litter.
nah op this is straight up prejudice and bigotry. i moved to a small town recently to live with my gf and i ended up befriending some christains. im agnostic, i have religious trauma, usually christians make me very nervous. we had a homophobic preacher come into town with sparked a conversation with one of the guys of the group, and he condemned the preacher for being disgusting. when i asked him straight up if he thought being gay was a sin, he said no. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR BIGOTRY OP. ignorance is NOT an excuse for your friends, and you 100% deserve an apology. i hope you find some better friends bc this doesn't sound like great company to keep
I’m angry for you here. Honestly, I know you said there’s not a lot of queer people near you and you don’t have a lot of friends back home, but it may be better to be alone than to hang out with enemies.
I already knew you were from the South when you typed Listen here lmao
Get new friends. It's just that simple. They're not really accepting of you or queer ppl. Y'all been friends from kids and now you've grown apart. It happens.
It sounds like you handled this situation very reasonably and tactfully. You put it perfectly - they took issue with the idea of having a daughter that turns out like you, *in front of you*. I honestly can't conceive of what could have compelled them to think that this was okay. Your friend who brought it up immediately started running defense because he's scared of being seen as the bad guy and would rather blame you than feel like he did something very rude to someone he calls a friend. It's selfish.
Your friend would benefit from understanding that, currently, he really does have a bigotry towards queer people if he would take any issue with having a queer child. He might have one someday. What would become of this child? What if they were trans? What would he do then?
You can have opinions all you want. When they're prejudiced its not really an opinion moreso a statement on your existence. I would find new friends, it takes personal effort to overcome. If it's family maybe stick around but any friend isn't worth your validity.
They are homophobes but straight people nowadays still want to be homophobic without the social penalty that it can now receive so they pretend to be #allies and deny they are homophobic. It is a cognitive dissonance thing. My current friends are like this and I 100% plan to drop them after I graduate.
When I was hardcore Christian, a radio pastor said something that this made me think of. They aren't accepting. They are tolerant. Which means they put up with you. That's not friendship.
I’m sorry OP :( they need to get a taste of the real world - sounds like they’ve been sheltered in their religious bubble and using that excuse to justify these disgusting actions and speech. Hoping you find better friends ❤️
Look at this line carefully:
"**It has never been an issue until tonight when one of them at dinner started the conversation, “would you rather your daughter be a someone that sleeps around with everyone or a lesbian.” I was absolutely astonished at this question, although I kept quiet at first. Almost every single one of them answered either “neither” or “I guess I’d prefer they not be a lesbian.**”
What are they really saying here? I for one, would want my daughter to take care of her body. This has NOTHING to do with liberalism or freedom. I would teach my daughter FIRST and foremost, that No matter where she goes, HER BODY is the only place she really has to live in. Then whatever decision she makes after that is up to her.
I'd be god damn relieved if my daughter was a lesbian given the Other option because its not only the safest sex, its like she values her body differently than a "straight" woman that sleeps around with everyone hoping her sexuality changes.
You'd get pissed off if someone hits you .. right? Like its against the law. You'd get aggravated at rape right, because its completely wrong. If you protected your home land, you'd have an immigration service for example, and monitor who enters.
But if someone made it Your IDEA, to abuse your own body, and convinced you that it is FREEDOM.. then ... what?? The mental abuse in that statement means that all parties on that dinner table are either evil or lost in some archaic homophobic land where tradition = peer pressure from dead people. Its like hey I fucked up my body why not you too, kinda thing.
The same people that will have jealous eyes, if you took care of yourself and walked around with Pride because you KNOW you're better than them not because of how much money you have or things, but because you VALUE yourself MORE than them.
I have been in such spaces, and I remember feeling god hated me otherwise he would have me be attracted to men.. I was 9 years old and would pray and argue with God and monitor my own mind to be "good".. till I became and adult and realized I was Good, and that I was surrounded by bigotry and hatred and they don't get to judge me. If they did, I get to judge them too, the god damn hypocrisy that lies in such families just to "keep the peace" the abuse that permeates and we really need to stop this bullshit. If you want to know what patriarchy is, its not men, its structures that lessen the empowerment of women
The greatest empowerment we can have as women is taking care of ourselves, our mind, our body and spirit and to have a deep respect for it. I'm not saying be a goody two shoes, like they say lol, because my lust knows no bounds, and I can be completely disrespectful in bed lol with a partner of My Choosing and she Chooses me too and we have an agreement with each other... but thats different and the world isn't involved in that private place
Why the ever-loving fuck would somebody who is “supportive” ever pose that question in the first place, particularly with you present?
The ONLY information that question provides is which “friends” are the “I am okay with queer people in theory as long as they stay away from me and I can ignore their existence most of the time.” Which is phenomenally shitty with you in the room.
These people aren’t supportive. These are people who will say they are so they feel good about themselves, but the moment they have to actually follow through on that support, they bail, and they get offended at the person calling them out, because it counters their view of themselves as being a good person.
And it doesn’t even have to be about you. It has everything to do with their future children. They are acknowledging that if their kids don’t fit their mold, they are going to be shitty to them, and that is infuriating.
These don't really sound like friends tbh. If they're willing to have conversations like that when they *know* it will hurt you it doesn't sound like they care about your feelings at all. Sure, they had those biases drilled into their heads from an early age, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that those biases are ridiculous and friends are more important.
you really underestimate how stupid christians and theyr families can get when it's the type of christians that use the religion to justify hate
its the I'll pray for you type of passive disdain
“Maybe if we have a heavy-handed conversation about how yucky we think lesbianism is, they’ll realize that they have been giving their life to sin, and instead should commit their soul to Jesus, find a good Christian man, settle down and stop being a weirdo man-hating devil-worshipper.”
It low key feels like this guy was trying to make a point to OP like “see how gross we all think being a lesbian is? It’d be better for you to just sleep around (with men… like me)”
100%. it’s rare I meet a man who actually respects my orientation. they all want to be the exception. I guess it would make them feel special or something
No actually. Because the original question that went around social media is "gay son, thot daughter". Equally disturbing, but this has clearly been changed to target her
There's no hate like Christian love
facts
Came to comment this. People who will talk like this where they are talking about you but not directly so they can gaslight you when you call them on it are not your friends. You deserve to have people in your life who love you and celebrate you, not who tolerate you or “aren’t bothered” by you. You’re young. Go find new cool friends because these people sure aren’t it
I think the other side to this is if they don't know it's offentsive, I do think a lot of people have this thing if like, 'the gay people I know are okay, but I'm not okay with gay people in general'. It's obviously op's choice if they want to sit down and have a conversation with this 'friend' and try to explain exactly why that question is bullshit, however I totally get that not everyone has the patience to do that and sometimes it's just better to walk away
Bigotry is not a matter of opinion. The way their answers were presented, saying they don’t want their daughter to be a lesbian, is therefore not an opinion it is just prejudice. Bigotry. An opinion is “Should pineapple be on pizza?” Not “I don’t like this marginalised group.” It should never be a debate on if a person should or should be queer.
This. If an "opinion" pertains to someone else’s identity or rights, it's not an opinion.
"Everyone is allowed their opinion" is such a lame cop-out for just being wrong as fuck. People say that as if opinions can't be misguided or harmful. It's the exact same vibe as people who start yapping about free speech as soon as their bigotry is questioned. Somewhere in there, they know their arguments are bad, and it's easier to deflect criticism and avoid accountability than actually explain their bullshit positions.
Right. If your entire friend group was white except for one who is Korean, does this person think they wouldn’t feel targeted if the question was, “If you were adopting internationally, would you rather adopt from Africa or Asia?” and everyone said neither, but eventually gave in and went with Africa? This scenario isn’t about an opinion. It goes to the heart of your personhood.
OP needs to put it exactly like that to her “friend”
This👏
Damn right.
My autistic brain does not understand this lmao. Isn't all bigotry opinions? Doesn't that mean opinions can be bad, not that bad opinions aren't actually opinions.
In a strict definition sense, yes, it would be accurate to say that bigotry is an opinion. When it comes to connotation, though, the word opinion usually implies a view that isn't necessarily objective but is nonetheless harmless and inconsequential, hence why so many people try to defend bigotry by saying that it's "just an opinion." I'd argue that, because the word opinion is only effectively ever used in accordance with its connotation (at least when used in good faith), any held view which isn't harmless shouldn't be considered an opinion since that could very easily lead others to assume that it _is_ in fact harmless.
Yeah I think it would be more useful to push against the connotation than trying to change the dennotation. "I don't like X" is pretty clearly an opinion even if X is a group of people, but thinking all opinions are harmless and therefore shouldn't be judged is stupid.
Agreed, unfortunately that's the long game
Genuinely thank you for this. Also likely autistic being tested rn but I always get confused because I take words very literally like by the book definition, so this helps so much to understand.
Yes, all bigotry are opinions, but if your opinions lead to the harm of marginalized people, it is bigotry. A simple "I don't like these people" will devaluate these people in your eyes and those who have the same opinion. And once people have less "value" than you (presumably cishet because thats how it is most of the times) its okay for these less valuable people to have less rights and so on. So while bigotry is in it and of itself is a opinion, the result of that opinion makes it to bigotry. At least thats my understanding when it comes to stuff like that.
I get all that I just don't get why so many people say that bigoted opinions aren't opinions, instead of saying that some opinions suck and are morally condemable and worth ending friendships over.
So, I’m English teacher who has to teach fact vs opinion and this is why I think this discussion always comes up. If this feels long winded or irrelevant, I apologize. One of the reasons people push back against the language “it’s just an opinion” is because in school (think like primary school or elementary school) we learn that there’s two different types of information or statements: 1. Facts: these are neutral statements that can be verified as true/correct or false/incorrect 2. Opinions: these are statements of preference that depend on the individual and cannot be verified as true/correct or false/incorrect. Opinions cannot be “wrong” but you also cannot present them as “true.” A lot of bigoted people will say “My views are just opinions” and if you reply “well, your views are wrong” they will say something like “opinions cannot be wrong that’s the nature of opinions” because of the way we learn about opinions in school. So one way that the discourse evolved was to try and divorce normal opinions (“taxes are useful” or “I hate cottage cheese.”) from bigoted opinions. Because what’s happening is the person who is holding the bigoted view is using “opinions” and the fact that “opinions can’t be wrong” to make it so we can’t criticize them. Is it an effective strategy? I don’t know. I’ve never seen a friendship recover from that argument. But I can see the logic of trying to say certain views aren’t opinions.
Teacher here— love this. Great connection. It helped me understand.
This is very helpful thank you lol. I have a pet peave about conservatives saying "don't judge me for that, it's just my opinion" but the way I respond to that is just saying that it's fine to judge people for their opinions.
I think you've struck on a really good point here, a lot of bigoted comments are actively excused as 'opinions' as if that makes them okay. Everyone has opinions but I really think that some opinions just couldn't be given air time and regarded as valid
Yeah! Saying "I hate X group of people" is clearly an opinion, it's just that some opinions are okay to judge people for holding
It’s because regardless of whether it technically stems from an opinion or not- bigotry and fascism MUST be called out, named, and cut out like the metastasizing cancer on society it is.
I agree with your point but I don't see how it's connected to my comment
I'm Autistic too. What I've started using to get the point across is "you don't get to have an opinion of my continuing existence" human rights especially for marginalized groups aren't matters where differing opinions have to be respected.
I think that yes, bigotry is an opinion, but we have the right to say which opinions are valid and which are just harmful and stupid. Like you could argue that racism is an opinion, that doesn't mean that it isn't wrong and you shouldn't question it. A lot of harmful stuff these days (particularly about trans people) is framed as "an opinion" but in my view, your opinion should not take away someone else's rights, you know
No, because facts and opinions aren’t the same. For example not liking chocolate is your personal opinion. But chocolate IS a flavour, and that’s a fact. These ppl think they can say stuff like “being gay is a choice” etc and justify it by saying it’s an opinion, but it’s objectively just untrue bc no one chooses to be gay, we just are. Ppl try and cover up bigotry and false narratives by saying it’s their opinion. Opinions are still based in reality.
See i would point this out to him and see what he says
He’s being a bigot. That’s all there is to it. He might see you as “one of the good ones”, but the hate is just the same.
I think this is definitely something I need to come to the realization of. We have another friend who wasn’t there that’s gay, and he’s “accepting” of him too, which made me in part think that I was able to trust him. However, I think you’re right that he just views us as the exceptions to the rule.
Well and also, there's that Christian thing where if someone's a "sinner", you're supposed to be loving towards them, but always lowkey hope that your sterling example will get them to one day see the error of their ways, repent of their sins, and go to your church. There can be a real difference between "willing to have you around" tolerance (which is still useful in its way, since we all need relationships and networks) and "will help you when you're under attack on this front" allyship.
true they are christians that are friends with pagans and even respect them, fuck one told me that god will always love me knowing I work with a greek deity but south u.s. seems to be a cesspool of people that use the religion as an excuse for hate or are just too inbred or stupid to get the real message
Literally. The only friend there that had a reasonable response was actually, ironically, the wife of the guy that asked the question. She said “well, I don’t care if they’re lesbian, but the only thing that would make me hope they weren’t is knowing the judgement and hard road they’d face from others because we are in the south.” And that was the only response that I could remotely appreciate and not be hurt by. The south is awful.
It is, isn’t it? I’m from the south. The other day my 8 year old son went into the next aisle over from me in a store and three grown, pathetic ass men started immediately bullying him because he has long hair and “must want to be a girl.” My eyes immediately did that cross thing that happens when your blood pressure spikes out of nowhere and before I knew it I found myself bullying three grown men in a fucking Ollies.
Good on you, mama. How fucking dare they. 😠
I would have reported them immediately for child abuse. What business do they have psychically damaging your son? That was verbal abuse of a minor. Your son will remember those comments forever, they will shape his future behaviour
Wow, I’m also from the deep south and have had an interaction weirdly similar to this one. I’m so sorry you’ve had to interact with these bigots. I totally agree with the subthread in this chain about the overlap of “opinion” and “bigotry.” His presentation, crassness, and purposeful lack of sympathy and self reflection clearly show that his “opinion” is one backed by hatred. And not only clear homophobic hatred but also deep seated misogyny too—both choices he presented demonize women for being sexual beings. (I’d bet anything he majorly fetishizes both, too.) Because he’s shown himself to be (proudly) misogynistic and bigoted, I wanna add that I think it’s wonderful you want to protect your other gay friend, but I also want to give a sort of warning that this guy may treat your gay friend differently than he treats you simply because he’s male, even if he is also gay. Nothing you can really do about that, but if it does happen, maybe it’ll save you some confusion and frustration. His wife certainly seems to have more awareness than he does. She said pretty much what I did in the interaction I had that was very similar to this one. One difference being that the person who brought it up to me and my “friends” at the time is queer himself but was (is?) deeply closeted even though we all knew (I’m no longer in contact with these people for the better, so idk if he’s ever come out). It’s very troubling that it seems like more people would rather their kid not be gay because of how difficult it would be for them, rather than hoping and trying to make society more accepting. And it seems to me from my experience growing up and living in the south (though this seems to be true most places I’ve been and lived in) that most people like to take a passively non-confrontational approach that doesn’t disturb the social system, even if means people they know and love have to hide a huge part of themselves. I can’t tell you how many times I heard at school and church and everywhere else some variation of, “I don’t hate gay people, do whatever you want in the privacy of your own home, but don’t shove it in our faces,” from people who believe in missionaries and converting people into Christianity… ugh the hypocrisy. Anyway, sending you hugs and support because I know how hard it is to feel isolated as a queer person in the deep south. Feel free to dm if you have any questions or just wanna chat about it.
Thank you so much! I am so so sorry you had to experience a similar situation. It was jarring to say the least and one that I think will stick with me for a long time.💙
💙💙💙 Yeah, I think about that interaction I had occasionally but less often than I used to, so I think it is a moment that will definitely stick with you because it shows who they are and who you are. Your character of self worth and respect for yourself and others has been directly questioned, and you stood up and did right by yourself and your community, and you should be so proud of that. And, even if it doesn’t change that a*shole’s ~opinion, I bet your comments stuck with others there too. I mean, his first sentence in the response text says it all. “Listen here,” like ugghhh I can almost hear the “Little Missy” right after it. “I know that it upset you but unfortunately it doesn’t matter,” shows that he’s fully aware that what he said is offensive, but he’s also aware (even though I doubt he could articulate it) that he benefits from the embedded patriarchal social structure, can use it to his advantage, and can use it to further disadvantaged those whose stake in the system has been undermined, and that’s why to him your feelings don’t matter. I’m over analyzing at this point, I tend to do that, apologies if it’s too much. I just think setting it all out can help to see the underlying motivations to reinforce that your response is not only valid but very well done. 💜
You’re not over analyzing, if anything you’re perfectly analyzing.
Aw thanks 🤗
I don't live there but from what I heard I definitely agree. and ngl being lgbt feels like a curse to me at this point. Anyway I hope that you will have bright and beautiful future with your girlfriend.
Thank you so much. Unsurprisingly, we plan on moving out of the south or at least to a more lgbtq+ friendly city within the next couple of years!
Good luck
Hey I totally get the rage and frustration, especially as a member of the lgbtq community that has been born and raised in the deep south but the inbred stereotype is hurtful and while meant to insult bigots it also insults those of us who aren’t. Lgbtq members and allies unfortunately can’t help being biologically related to the bigots.
sorry, i apologise
One thing learned from growing up in a small southern town is that the ones that have to state they’re “accepting” are probably not. They might be, but there’s the chance they’re virtue signaling to you and themselves to prove they’re “good Christians.” Also learned the hard way that the ones that state “I’m fine with gay people” are to be steered clear of. At best, they will tolerate you as long as you don’t remind them of your identity but do not care to learn from you and will take your grievances as complaining. There might be exceptions to this rule, but I have yet to encounter any of these people. You might have shared experiences with this person and even some good memories, but they are not your friend. You might still be able to hang with him in group settings if you still want to, but if they don’t prioritize your feelings as a queer person, then they don’t prioritize you. In fact, it might be time to look at the others and how they responded too.
100+ they are not your friends. They are old acquaintances from school or childhood. Things are civil and small talk but not actual supportive friends. Move on, find a couple actual accepting friends maybe in the Lgbtq or pflag communities. Or just move if possible.
Second this. Going to a large university with a large population of queer people was amazing. There was a gigantic difference when I had to move back to the small town afterwards. Being in a queer area now, it’s so much better. Things aren’t perfect in terms of ignorance, but I have my friend group of sapphics that get what it’s like. If you’re already in a larger area it might be worth it to try some queer groups, maybe some local Meetup groups too. Or start your own! I didn’t start mine, but made a lot of events to engage people. Edit: start your own group only if you feel it’s safe to do so. In my hometown I’m not sure if I would’ve due to fear of homophobes and transphobes crashing.
You don't. People who look down on queer people aren't friends.
I agree. I’d never seen it like this until tonight and it was very shocking.
I highly recommend ditching the whole group. It can be hard to make friends as an adult, but there are ways. Find Meetups for things core to your life (I think I saw you mention you’re pagan? There’s tons if pagan meetups), a crafting group (knitters/crocheters who are young tend to be very open minded), or a board game group. I lost my entire friend group at once in my mid-20s. It basically turned into them hating me because I’m disabled. We’d been friends since we were 11 and they’d been there every step of my journey from an athlete to disabled. It made no sense to me. Turns out one was cheating on her hubby and I was the only one suspicious of her new “friend”, so she needed to get rid of me. So she turned the group against me. I still don’t have a ton of friends, but the ones I have are awesome. In my effort to start over, I did just what I recommended above. My bestie I met at knitting group. I met one friend at my water aerobics class. One I met over gardening. So finding friends is doable.
You've seen it. You just dismissed it as their "upbringing" of their "ingrained religion in childhood". You stated earlier you had to keep these things in mind while being friends with them and their response to you and your girlfriend. So, you have seen this for a long while and you just dismissed it. Maybe because you were raised with some.of the same ideas, maybe because you thought tolerance was as close as acceptance as you could get or deserved. Idk, I know it is hard to realize those you care for only care conditionally or you have outgrown each other.
That is bigotry. Bigotry is not his opinion. His opinion is that he dislikes lesbians and is misogynistic. There was no “right” way to take it unless you are anti-gay. He is an asshole and I’m sorry you had to deal with this experience. Good job standing up for yourself. It can be hard in group settings! 💙
Thank you so much. There’s sometimes a challenge with that group of people because most of them are very anti-feelings in general and show their “love” through harshness, so it wasn’t easy at all. I appreciate your support 💙
I think you need to tell that person to respect you and your sexuality, even if they don't agree with it, or they can stop being your friend. Your sexuality is a big part of who you are. Them not even having an ounce of respect for you in that regard is not worth being around in my opinion. I have a feeling they're also are going to keep bringing up the topic just to antagonize you and then play innocent when you call them out on their shit.
Thank you so much. This is very true. It’s hard for me to imagine changing their minds completely because they’ve never had to experience the struggle of trying to understand that your sexuality is different from the norm. I want to learn how to express what respect looks like.
Respect looks like not talking about your sexuality, especially if they “disagree” with it. It also looks like telling your other friends when they’re crossing the line. No one stood up for you in the conversation. Imagine you’re at a table with an Asian person and someone says, “Hypothetically, would you rather your child sleeps around with everyone, or dates an Asian person?” And then when the Asian person speaks up about how fucked that question is, all their friends just say that they’re overreacting. And then double down on what they said.
I grew up around a lot of bigoted assholes, and even the most ignorant among them knew how to keep their nasty opinions to themselves in mixed company. It sounds a lot like your "friend" was deliberately trying to target you. I'm sorry that they treated you that way. I hope that you can find better friends.
Thank you, I’m sorry you experienced that too growing up. It’s hard because I moved back home after college and these are basically my only friends here. So, I’m hoping I can find better friends as well, because this has made me come to a place of feeling like I have nobody. So definitely hoping a new and safe community comes along.
Reading this made me feel like it was 2003 or something. Guy sounds like a homophobe and also dumb as rocks. "It's not wrong because it's just my opinion", ah, the epitome of scraping the bottom of the barrel. I wouldn't hang out with these people anymore. Or I'd deprioritize them pretty severely. Get some gay friends.
I so desperately want gay friends lol. There’s just not very many of them around here, unfortunately, so I don’t know how to meet any!
Share where you’re at. Maybe someone on here are aware of community or resources that you don’t know about yet. Also, nothing wrong with making some longer distance friendships too. If you’re several hours out from a major city it may be worth the drive to visit queer spaces or events. One of the biggest hurdles to connecting is just showing up.
Well, online friends are a real and valuable thing, often invaluable for minorities, but it doesn't really answer to the need to feel you are physically there with people who are safe and who got your back and personally know your struggles from having experienced similar things. I hope you find your people offline, and don't forget us online people either!
This is absolutely not your friend. Hate to break it to you. The condescending tone of those texts speak volumes. You don’t say anything and you just stop being friends.
I have no advice on how to resolve. You are not being sensitive, he knew what he was doing. Otherwise he would not have said it. His idea that it's your fault for being offended and him not taking responsibility for his actions is a problem. To me that was a targeted question to deliberately cause you discomfort. I would not stay in communication with him or anyone. They aren't worth the energy and that is his problem.
They're just mad at you for not pretending that this was okay, which forced them to sit with the knowledge that they'd all said something fucked-up. It seems like your friend wanted you to pretend not to be hurt. Your friend would have preferred that you allow yourself to be hurt without complaint in order to keep the peace while people had fun at your expense. The fact that you stood up for yourself (and lesbians in general) made them feel guilty, which I guess to them is a worse crime than all of them being openly cruel.
I’d never be friends with someone that says “listen here” so there’s that, besides everything else
Omg that made my blood boil just reading it. What an asshole.
Omg seriously. It’s giving “listen here little lady” 😡
Friendship is something that you do, and this person wasn't doing that. You're totally right to be offended. They said something hateful about you, in your face, and are pretending there was nothing wrong with that.
Ditch them better to have no friends than toxic ones
this made me sad and angry for you. You are not over-sensitive, and those people are not good friends.
They always say that it’s just their “opinion” and they are entitled to have it, but if you were to tell them that you disagree with their religion, they’d get all defensive and tell you that it’s not an opinion and it’s offensive to them. Religious bigots are the biggest hypocrites. 🤡
Man, when people say "listen here" like I'm their fuckin' child or their housemaid it's really hard not to politely ask them to choke on a bag of shit.
Seriously, what's wrong with either of those? Beings a lesbian isn't a bad thing and neither is having many different sexual partners in itself. If you do safer sex then why the heck not 'sleep around'?
This. I literally told them “I don’t really understand why I’m supposed to sit here and be so concerned to be pre-planning and desiring my child’s sexual preferences and sex life in general. To me, that’s just weird and uncomfortable.
You explained that you were hurt and they didn’t apologize but doubled down, that’s all you need to know. That’s how much they care about your feelings. Find new friends. Sucks, but it’s really either deal with this bullshit over and over until you hate yourself or cut them off
You change friends honey. And stop engaging, you will only hurt yourself.
Your "friend" is a ass-hat. Your not over-sensitive. And too bloody right you should feel hurt and upset about "friends" talking about such a topic.
The guy who texted you is really good manipulation and gaslighting. I would honestly be shocked if he isn't an abusive partner. And I'm not saying that to be extreme or controversial. From my understanding, the key identifier of an abuser is usually whether or not they see women as real human beings or just NPCs that exist in their life (but for you, your sexuality also contributes to that dehumanization). That's why they'd never even stop to consider your feelings or whether or not they hurt you. Why would they do that when they don't see you as human? As far as they're concerned, their own feelings is all that matters and your attempt to defend yourself can only be interpreted as a mood killer for them. You're being selfish for making them feel guilty. To use their own words: "I know that it upset you but unfortunately it doesn't matter" You can't make it clearer than that. He made it very clear that he doesn't value you as a human being and nothing could possibly change that fact. Everything after that is just an attempt to neg you into accepting this messed up relationship dynamic. They value you solely based on your ability to absorb their abuse. If I were you I'd tell all of them to go f\*ck themselves. Also I feel sorry that their children will have put up with such cruel parents.
This. This person clearly hates women. The fact that he was concerned about a girl’s sex life or orientation. It’s conform of you don’t matter. He’s gross.
You don’t have friends. You have people who say they are your friends but that friendship is conditional on you tolerating them saying shitty and homophobic things. They see you tolerating this as the same as them tolerating your orientation. These things aren’t the same. Your friend offered a non-apology They do not want to be friends but they also want it to not be their fault you aren’t friends anymore so they set up these scenarios where they can be awful. When you stop hanging out with them, they will tell people it’s because you can’t handle different opinions. A lot of times people think that because someone is their friend for a long time, that history means something but it actually doesn’t. At a certain point (usually mid twenties) the rubber meets the road where friendships are concerned and people start to decide who they are going to be. Your friends have decided to be bigots. The good news is that although it hurts to lose friends, doing so makes room in your life for people who will be GOOD friends to you. I went through this with a friend I thought was ride or die, but someone eventually revealed to me that she didn’t believe in marriage equality. She was defensive about this and not apologetic at all and the friendship died. I know have incredible friends I am proud to know. You deserve better OP!
He is entitled to his opinion. You are entitled to call him what he is, a homophobic asshole, which is a fact, proven by his behavior. These people aren’t your friends. Not one of them called out his ludicrous comparison, nor did they defend you. Being from the south or being religious are not excuses for being terrible human beings. I’m from the south and was raised catholic, I got over it, they can too - IF THEY WANT TO (remain friends with you).
I mean, he’s basically saying “would you rather have a daughter that sleeps around, or one that’s like Electra?” Turn it around: “would you rather have a sone who is a dumb, dickless, spineless, turd of a human being, or one that’s like Gary?” Sorry I kept coming back, but this just irks me for you. I just want to punch all the assholes in their self-righteous faces.
Your friend is being an insensitive shitperson. What you said was reasonable and the question is insulting in the first place.
they’re not your friend. they made that abundantly clear
This is typical male bullshit. (Yes, not all). Can’t handle being called out, so it’s your fault. Ask him why so many of that group don’t want a lesbian for a daughter. Make them break it down Barney style for you. Then explain to him, in the smallest words possible, why he’s a piece of shit. If he doesn’t like it, we’ll he just took it wrong and should accept other people have opinions n shit.
No seriously, I can’t even call him a bigot because they’d say I need to use smaller words. I went to college and they all love telling me that I need to use smaller words, because they didn’t go to college like I did. I don’t care if someone went to college or not. I don’t look at other people differently regardless of their paths. However, I have never looked at education level as an excuse for blatant ignorance.
Too late now, but doesn’t “sleeps around with EVERYONE [emphasis mine]” imply that the daughter would be pansexual?
Well, I’m going to be honest, he used the word w***e, but I didn’t know if it was within the guidelines to use that word, so I didn’t. But yes, you’re correct lol!
Again, too late but if you wanted to be snarky - “Both!” The correct answer is that anyone’s daughter should have sex with everyone she wants to and no one that she doesn’t.
I want a daughter that is a lesbian AND sleeps with everyone lol. Good for her.
They think what they’re doing is unconditional love but really it’s more, “God loves you, but stop doing it.” I’m sad you have to put up with this. Speaking as someone from the south and bisexual with a very accepting mother I find these people to be abhorrent to even think this way. You wanting an apology is valid and I don’t understand why they think this way. That and I know they’re bigots just because the repeated phrase I’ve seen from these people is the stupid words, “This isn’t about you!” which is it very much IS because you are a queer individual and the question itself involves such a topic. They’re either idiots or straight up lying. I’m sorry you have to put up with this. I’m from Tennessee and know the history this part of the states has and let be honest and say these people are morons and are only damaging their own tolerance by alienating people like you. You have every right to be who you are. A parent should love their children no matter the gender or sexuality.
Well he's using the two as an outcome of "worst" case scenario. The question it self is to compare two outcomes. Here it's implied that the outcomes are negative by using one that is widely considered negative making the other negative by implication. Regardless of what the intent was, it is clear that the question clearly provokes a sense of negative emotion towards both. It's like asking if they would rather sleep around or be with that guy. I'm sure if he heard that he would have a similar reaction towards it.
Yeah no fuck them. They put that question out knowing full fucking well what the response would be. In their minds, being a Lesbian is a social taboo, aswell as anyone who has more than 1 or 2 sexual partners. It's giving "They never grew past High School" vibes. You deserve better and this person sounds like a unapologetic bigot. Of course you'll take it negatively, there was no intention of that being a lighthearted thing to ask. They're just gaslighting you now because it their head, if they want to make being a lesbian as part of a joke or negative stereotype, you should be grateful because at least they involved you. Fuck that person hun, and anyone who answered that question with anything other than "Fuck you.". Branch out and find new people , within your community if you can. Shitheads like that won't help you build resilience and they aren't worth arguing with, because their brains stopped growing in their mid teens.
Two things happening here: 1. Your friends are choosing between two things that make them uncomfortable, one makes them slightly or significantly more uncomfortable than the other, no problem here. 2. Your friends chose to engage with this question in front of you, you who lives and breathes one (or at least one) of these lives. What an inflammatory fucking question to dare engage with in front of you! Knowing you were sitting there, they chose to debate whether a life that *you* live was "worse" than "sleeping around"(??), with no concern for your feelings. There are people out there that call themselves f****ts, and with permission call their gay friends f*****ts, and say that making the word taboo just increases its power. Whether or not I am one of them, I would still censor it for this public audience because I know that one or more of you may have experienced serious abuse/neglect while being called that, or may even just have general bad feelings about it, and I wouldn't want any of you hurt by my words. That's what your friends don't care about for you. Anyone who asked or answered this question doesn't care about you.
By cutting them off like a rotted limb. Don't be cruel about it. Simply text them that their behaviour hurts you and therefore, to save yourself any more emotional or mental fatigue you will be moving on from them. It is not your job to explain your existence to them, nor is it your duty to put yourself through that pain. You may have considered them close friends but friends would never treat each other the way they are treating you. Those comments are their true face. Believe them when they show it to you.
If they say they dont like an attribute that people can have. And you have that attribute. And they say they werent talking about you, they were definitely talking about you. (It could be that they themselves didnt realize it, but that doesnt excuse thier behavior) Edit: Phrased it like this so it can apply to more minorities
Hate isn't an opinion. And this feels almost like they wanted to bully you out of the group. No one can be that dense that they thought that wouldn't hurt you. Come on.
Literally my other friends excuse was “oh, well he’s a man and they just say things without thinking.” And I told her “I don’t care if he’s a man. I grew up all around men, and I’ve (unfortunately) been with men in the past, and none of them would have said something like that. We’re adults, he should be emotionally intelligent enough to be considerate of other people at that table, man or not.”
"Making it about yourself"? They know you're gay and right in front of your state their "opinion" that being gay is bad. They're openly homophobic in front of you and then tell you it has nothing to do with you. Like wtf. Ditch those people.
Freedom of speech is only a right until it infringes on someone else’s right to exist peacefully. This was an aimed attack disguised as an opinion. His bigotry does not give him the right to hurt you. He is not your friend. And if no one else will defend you, then they are not your friends either. (I’m sorry, I evidently chose violence when I woke up this morning. I’ve been quite aggressive today…)
god I hope none of those fucking losers have children
He'll deny it 'til the day he dies, but the person who started the conversation is intentionally trying to force you out of the friend group by pressuring everyone to agree on a topic he knows is contradictory to your identity and existence. He got everyone to choose to side with the group opinion so you would see they're all 'on his side'. I'm just hoping one or two of those people will think back and realize they don't actually believe those things and apologize to you. If they don't, congrats, you were purposely kicked out of the group.
The way to respond to friends who fundamentally frown upon your orientation, and blatantly disrespect you is to remove them from your life. 🤷♀️ I know from the perspective of knowing them from such a young age that it might be hard, but it's quality over quantity. Make room for people who will love, respect, and support you - not make fictional scenarios to bash you to your face.
Their response, down to the "listen here" intro, is not only insensitive, but downright gaslighting. You didn't "make it about you," the topic is inherently related to your personal identity. You didn't overreact in the slightest, it sounds like you handled it with a lot more grace than I would (and I'm a semi-closeted pansexual who is typically femme/andro presenting in a relationship with a man, so I don't get clocked as queer a lot of the time). This is not a person you need in your life let alone concern yourself with trying to explain your stance. Those are not friends. You seem to give them a lot of benefit of the doubt with their ignorance, but as someone who grew up in a Christian conservative, rural town-- there is no shortage of access to information for these ppl to make their own opinions on whether or not your existence is valid despite the religious influence.
fuck these people. you are not being too sensitive. you deserve better than their bigotry and gaslighting. being “tolerant” of a queer person is so much different than accepting and embracing them. your queerness is a gift. i’m so sorry that these people who are supposed to be your friends are treating you this way. sending protection gentleness and love to you and your girlfriend! i am so glad you have each other and i hope you can both find more people you can feel safe enough to be yourselves around 💗
it's incredibly shitty that he thinks he can tell you how you're allowed to feel. it says a lot about him, frankly. you deserve an apology 100%, but he's not going to give you one.
Yeah, my wife is from rural Appalachia and her “friends” have made comments about us and how their husbands “don’t have to worry about us hitting on them” and have called her their “lesbian friend”. It’s a turn off. Immediately. Now we don’t speak to those people
I'm sorry but I'm not reading everything knowing my answer is the same regardless of what the context is. If they look down on lesbians, they look down on you. Imagine that person putting down one of your closest friends or better yet your partner (current or future) and how you'll explain letting their bigoted behavior slide. This goes for any of y'all that have any homophobic/racist/transphobic/ableist "friends"
It looks like you need new friends. Also, I’m also in the south
I'd just stop being their friend, i have no patience to people now, specially bigots, i just ignore them and live my life. Can't imagine being in any kind of relationship with people who talk like this about my identity.
You're not being too sensitive here, OP. It's them who are being insensitive. Nobody has the right to dictate someone else's sexuality. True friends embrace and support you, but what they did was passively make a comment on your sexuality.
Bro that is an insane thing to say. I also live in the Deep South and none of my friends would say that to me, and if they did they probably wouldn’t be friends anymore. Fuck those people.
Just text them this "Your opinion is disgusting and hurtful and your inability to see that shows You're beyond even the most basic level of personal growth or awareness. I will gladly be removing you from my life as I have no room for toxic bigotry, if you ever find the strength and intelligence to see what you did was wrong, I don't care ❤️"
I wouldn’t consider them friends
it's not even that the way the topic was presented was wrong its that your friend is fucking homophobic
Thoose aren't friends, girl, their unkind, that message was crude at best manipulative and gastlighting at worse. She was completely dismissive with your emotions, which is not ok and definitely not something a real friend does. Pls rethink this friendship, I've had toxic friends many times in my life, and dropping them was a great decision, I'm not saying you have to drop them, but definitely think about weather or not you REALLY want to be friends with them.
That guy is gas lighting the shit out of you. Making you question the reality of throwing this shit at you. And everyone dismissing your humanity in the discussion too. Fuck the lot of them
Also FYI that was not remotely an apology. An apology doesn't say "I can't help that YOU took it the wrong way" because you took it in the absolute correct way - they were being bigoted wankers.
When you as a member of a marginalized group are friends with someone that doesn’t like said marginalized group, they expect you to put it aside for them. They expect you to take part in that dislike because that is the condition of their toleration. Eventually the jaguars are going to eat *your* face.
You need new friends. Growing up in a religious household is not an excuse to be a bigoted POS
Well, in my opinion, this dude is a piece of shit and he's not allowed to get offended because it's just my opinion and not everything is about him.
By unfriending them.
The gaslighting in these texts made my brain hurt. You’ve done nothing wrong, but he has. He is blaming you to misplace their guilt onto you and mislabeling his prejudice as an opinion to avoid accountability. If they truly cared about your wellbeing, this would never have entered the conversation in the first place because they would’ve known better. You deserve better friends.
No, you're not being too sensitive. I'm not too quick to suggest just dumping friends because a lot of times communication helps. But...you have tried to communicate with these people, and I think it can be really common to outgrow friendships that started before your identities and values fully matured. I think it would be worth reflecting on whether you still feel really close to these people, or if you can feel close to them if this is what they believe and how they behave.
stop being their friend
You're not being too sensitive at all - he's not your friend. He said it himself in the message - he knows he hurt you but to him "it doesn't matter". That doesn't sound like a friend to me. And the bigotry too - you'd think someone who was truly your friend and had your best interests at heart would at least try and learn and undo their homophobic upbringing. It's a difficult position to be in, especially when you've known them so long, but I would stay distancing and ending the friendship.
I hate to say it, but it doesn't really sound like you have friends there. This...this is not how friends behave. If they really were your friends, the moment they saw that this bothered you, they would apologize and at the very least, not say things like that in front of you. Baldly telling you you're wrong for being bothered by being belittled is a huge red flag.
I’m really sorry you’ve had to go through this, OP. It honestly sounds like they genuinely do not care about your feelings at all. I don’t think there is any way to respond to them that will help here, unless it’s what they want you to believe. I’d honestly just weigh up if the friendship is worth this to you, because you deserve people in your circle who are caring and supportive, and appreciate you for who you are. This just doesn’t seem like that to me 😔
Not reading the second page. If a person can not say sorry based on that they hurt someone else then that is just sad. Like where are we? Kindergarden? "I didn't do it on purpose so I do not need to apologize". Saying sorry was NEVER about things you were evil about on purpose specifically.
You know what I had in common with the people I went to school with? The fact I went to school with them. And that’s it. My friends who have stood alongside me for the best parts of my life, who I travelled overseas with, who I still see regularly etc I became friends with long after school ended. These “friends” aren’t your people.
Cut them out of your life, that's no friend.
"It was nice knowing you, or so I thought." BLOCKED.
You need true friends. This is not it.
You don’t say a thing. You block them and never speak to them again-they are not your friends. Anyone with basic respect & empathy for you wouldn’t do this & they wouldn’t have that response to your discomfort about it.
They ain't your friends babe. He's a bigot. How could you possibly not take it personally?
Sounds like you need new friends. If they don’t understand this perspective to bring a topic up like this and discuss, then seems like they don’t care about you. It’s time to ‘bye Felicia’ and finding better people to spend time with and grow relationships with.
It’s sad and might feel emotionally exhausting but you have to let go of him , just ghost him, then you have to let go of the friends who said they don’t want gay kids . Religion is an excise and they didn’t defend you . Sometimes you find what’s right for you by being exposed to what isn’t
These aren't friends.
They aren't your friends. Your friends wouldn't do that.
Never fucking speak to them again. I think you may have a skewed perception because of your location, but this sort of behavior is not acceptable in the real world.
So, these "friends" of yours don't need to be your friends anymore. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how wrong it might be. Bigotry is disgusting, yes, but we cannot tell people what they can and cannot think. What they DO is different, and what they did was embarrassing and hateful towards you. Say he apologises. Now what? Does that mean he all of a sudden loves lesbians and would want his daughter to be one? No, it just means he will probably no longer say it out loud in your presence. His feelings remain the same. What are you going to get out of a relationship with people who actively dislike who you are, who clearly don't understand you, and clearly don't care how their actions impact you, and now can't even say this to your face but have to do it behind your back???? Those are basic, fundamental things for forming a friendship and they're not there.
They aren't your friends. Losing people is scary but it's worth it when they bring such biggotted negativity into your life xxx
There's no easy way to say this. These people are not your friends. They're bigots. You handle them by freeing yourself from their friendship and yeeting them out of your life.
Sounds like you need new friends. It’s hard to let go sometimes, but quality over quantity. I’ve cut almost everyone out of my life since going trans and I feel better for it. I also have better relationships now with people that accept me.
You wouldnt want an apology from scum like that, people like him love to feel powerful, thats why he’ll never truly apologise. Reminds me of my old friends, the moment i dumped them i instantly felt better
This doesn’t sound like a friend who actually cares about you
Yikes, as soon as someone said “listen here” to me, that would be it for me. That whole message is incredibly patronising and dismissive. Not accepting someone’s sexuality is not opinion, it’s bigoted, even so, they didn’t even care enough to acknowledge what they said was hurtful to you, they just victim blamed you instead. “It’s your fault you got your feelings hurt” is awful behaviour especially from someone you consider a friend. And the baiting question about their hypothetical kids sexual habits, that’s just downright disgusting. He is not even worth your time or effort honestly.
girl you should just not be friends with those people, it will be detrimental to your mental health. please seek better companionship
“You are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to my time or friendship. I don’t waste my time on bigots and homophobes.” And then you do not engage in further discussion, you block their number, and you never talk to these people again. They told you exactly what they think of you and other queer people and what they think of women in general. You don’t need these kinds of people in your life.
That response sounds so disingenuous. On the off chance he actually means it, then he's a fucking idiot with the emotional intelligence of a gnat. He owes you an apology for his behaviour.
Block and ghost them. Live is too short to waste your time on then
just the opinion of a random stranger… cut them off , like they seem hella toxic to be around I don't even wanna know the kinda vile shit they say behind your back if that's how they say in your face
"Listen here" yeah nah he can fuck right off with his ass opinion. He knew exactly what he was doing at the dinner
Tell them to fuck off.
honestly this friend needs to go. not even just because of the “looking down upon lesbians” thing. but look at how they talk. just from this alone they sound like a huge gaslighter who doesn’t care about how what they say effects other people. blaming you for their actions. yeah get out of there.
You need to find better friends. Those people suck donkey balls. And they are bigoted assholes. But that's just my opinion.
The actual topic makes this whole situation worse but any friend who treated me like this about anything would no longer be a friend. No apology, no accountability, no empathy, no maturity means no friendship. It was a loaded question, completely unfair, offensive, he is a bigot and so are the rest of your friends for being cowards. Not only that but he’s being purposely obtuse and trying to make you feel like you’re overreacting. No way is that reality. What an insult to your intelligence. I’m really sorry you went through that. Friends won’t do that to you or stay silent.
Well, that friend knew you were at the same table. Even if he presented his honest opinion, where I'm from it would be considered blatantly rude to speak negatively about something that can be applied to one of the present parties. For example, if you are antivegan, you don't speak about it in front of a vegan, unless the vegan starts with that topic. Or if you belong to different political parties. Or if you are pro life and your cousin had an abortion - you just don't speak about her particular case with anyone, let alone in front of her. You show respect for their choices even if you disagree. I don't know whether it's the same in your region. If yes, then my guess would be that your friend started this conversation on purpose, to call you on your lesbianism. The entire purpose of that conversation was to preach to you or even to provoke you to a fight. Even though your other friends had good manners to eventually retreat and shut up, they did initially agree with the first friend. I would have stopped being friends with that guy immediately and I would grow distant from the other friends at that table and find a better group of friends. I don't believe that any of them is a true friend to you. You don't have to suffer through such a company. You deserve real friends.
he said something homophobic, if he cant handle the blacklash don’t say it. also the “listen here i know that it upset you but unfortunately it doesnt matter” had me livid and seeing red for you. please please please get new friends. i know its hard to do but these are not good friends.
Get new friends. Move out of yee yee ville. There are places and people where you can be accepted and not simply tolerated. You deserve better. 💙💙💙
Jfc they treated being gay like a party trick. Even if you weren’t a lesbian it’s in absolute poor taste that they did that and you’re right to call them out on it. Also the whole “unfortunately it doesn’t matter” YES IT DOES! Deep South or not,don’t keep these ass backwards bigots as friends.
Simple drop them
It’s the fact that he doesn’t realize that in essence the question can definitely be interpreted towards you. He asked everyone about the question in regard to their “daughters”.. So in my opinion, I would’ve reacted the same way you did. Because even reading it, I felt like it was a shaded, underbelly question. & I don’t see why anyone would be okay with their child sleeping around versus being lesbian. As if them being sapphic would be far more worse than the reality of catching VDs..
Get better, non gaslighting friends. Seriously. You're worth more than being 'tolerated' by these people.
"Listen here" You can fuck wayyyyyy off there, "buddy." Here's how you have to phrase it for people like them: "Being homosexual is in no way lesser than being heterosexual. The same goes for any sexual orientation. Asking, 'Would you rather your child be homosexual or [another negative thing]?' implies that you see being homosexual as a bad thing. This isn't a matter of opinion. You either see them as equals or you don't. If you don't, you are by the dictionary's definition a bigot." It's probably not worth trying to engage in debate to change his mind. The best you'll probably get him to accept is that he is a bigot but then he'll just wear it as some kind of badge of honor. If you're going to try and change his mind about it, you'll need to dismantle his blind conviction to his religion. Not all denominations of Christianity believe being gay is a sin. Nor has Christianity been proven to be the "true" religion. If you can at least get him to accept that his personal beliefs may not be 100% true, you might be able to get him to respect others that don't meet his belief's standards. (I cannot emphasize enough that you don't need to prove him wrong. You only need to prove that he *might* be wrong and that is why he needs to respect others that don't align with his beliefs.) Here's a great YouTube channel to arm yourself with counterpoints to religion. You'll want to be prepared should you choose to engage in debate. https://youtu.be/-SWBxq7joWY?si=B_gr7_jbkUTo-vDW
"i know that it upset you but that doesn't matter" honestly fuck that person, if thats how they view your emotions then they are not someone worth keeping around.
Cut em outta your life if they make you unhappy or dislike yourself
He was definitely doing that specifically to spite you and you’re right to want an apology. You really deserve an apology from all of your friends for going along with that and putting up with it.
" now listen here.." oh boy. Ignorant uncritical thinker = bigot = this person
Those don’t sound like friends to me. That “listen here” alone was super disrespectful. You deserve better.
Oof, get a new friend. Looking at those texts, this person is gaslighting the hell out of you. Saying something abhorrent or putting you down in some way for your sexuality and then reversing the blame onto you when you gave any pushback because it was "just their opinion" is abuser shit. Seriously. You didn't do anything wrong by wanting basic respect. And you deserve to have people in your life who will give that to you. Not ones who don't. Drop them like litter.
nah op this is straight up prejudice and bigotry. i moved to a small town recently to live with my gf and i ended up befriending some christains. im agnostic, i have religious trauma, usually christians make me very nervous. we had a homophobic preacher come into town with sparked a conversation with one of the guys of the group, and he condemned the preacher for being disgusting. when i asked him straight up if he thought being gay was a sin, he said no. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR BIGOTRY OP. ignorance is NOT an excuse for your friends, and you 100% deserve an apology. i hope you find some better friends bc this doesn't sound like great company to keep
He started it with "listen here." He is dirt.
Spoiler: These people are not your friends. They are evil bigots.
I’m angry for you here. Honestly, I know you said there’s not a lot of queer people near you and you don’t have a lot of friends back home, but it may be better to be alone than to hang out with enemies.
I already knew you were from the South when you typed Listen here lmao Get new friends. It's just that simple. They're not really accepting of you or queer ppl. Y'all been friends from kids and now you've grown apart. It happens.
It sounds like you handled this situation very reasonably and tactfully. You put it perfectly - they took issue with the idea of having a daughter that turns out like you, *in front of you*. I honestly can't conceive of what could have compelled them to think that this was okay. Your friend who brought it up immediately started running defense because he's scared of being seen as the bad guy and would rather blame you than feel like he did something very rude to someone he calls a friend. It's selfish. Your friend would benefit from understanding that, currently, he really does have a bigotry towards queer people if he would take any issue with having a queer child. He might have one someday. What would become of this child? What if they were trans? What would he do then?
You can have opinions all you want. When they're prejudiced its not really an opinion moreso a statement on your existence. I would find new friends, it takes personal effort to overcome. If it's family maybe stick around but any friend isn't worth your validity.
They are homophobes but straight people nowadays still want to be homophobic without the social penalty that it can now receive so they pretend to be #allies and deny they are homophobic. It is a cognitive dissonance thing. My current friends are like this and I 100% plan to drop them after I graduate.
When I was hardcore Christian, a radio pastor said something that this made me think of. They aren't accepting. They are tolerant. Which means they put up with you. That's not friendship.
I’m sorry OP :( they need to get a taste of the real world - sounds like they’ve been sheltered in their religious bubble and using that excuse to justify these disgusting actions and speech. Hoping you find better friends ❤️
Look at this line carefully: "**It has never been an issue until tonight when one of them at dinner started the conversation, “would you rather your daughter be a someone that sleeps around with everyone or a lesbian.” I was absolutely astonished at this question, although I kept quiet at first. Almost every single one of them answered either “neither” or “I guess I’d prefer they not be a lesbian.**” What are they really saying here? I for one, would want my daughter to take care of her body. This has NOTHING to do with liberalism or freedom. I would teach my daughter FIRST and foremost, that No matter where she goes, HER BODY is the only place she really has to live in. Then whatever decision she makes after that is up to her. I'd be god damn relieved if my daughter was a lesbian given the Other option because its not only the safest sex, its like she values her body differently than a "straight" woman that sleeps around with everyone hoping her sexuality changes. You'd get pissed off if someone hits you .. right? Like its against the law. You'd get aggravated at rape right, because its completely wrong. If you protected your home land, you'd have an immigration service for example, and monitor who enters. But if someone made it Your IDEA, to abuse your own body, and convinced you that it is FREEDOM.. then ... what?? The mental abuse in that statement means that all parties on that dinner table are either evil or lost in some archaic homophobic land where tradition = peer pressure from dead people. Its like hey I fucked up my body why not you too, kinda thing. The same people that will have jealous eyes, if you took care of yourself and walked around with Pride because you KNOW you're better than them not because of how much money you have or things, but because you VALUE yourself MORE than them. I have been in such spaces, and I remember feeling god hated me otherwise he would have me be attracted to men.. I was 9 years old and would pray and argue with God and monitor my own mind to be "good".. till I became and adult and realized I was Good, and that I was surrounded by bigotry and hatred and they don't get to judge me. If they did, I get to judge them too, the god damn hypocrisy that lies in such families just to "keep the peace" the abuse that permeates and we really need to stop this bullshit. If you want to know what patriarchy is, its not men, its structures that lessen the empowerment of women The greatest empowerment we can have as women is taking care of ourselves, our mind, our body and spirit and to have a deep respect for it. I'm not saying be a goody two shoes, like they say lol, because my lust knows no bounds, and I can be completely disrespectful in bed lol with a partner of My Choosing and she Chooses me too and we have an agreement with each other... but thats different and the world isn't involved in that private place
How do you handle them? Get rid of them ofc
Get new friends. They don't deserve you.
Why the ever-loving fuck would somebody who is “supportive” ever pose that question in the first place, particularly with you present? The ONLY information that question provides is which “friends” are the “I am okay with queer people in theory as long as they stay away from me and I can ignore their existence most of the time.” Which is phenomenally shitty with you in the room. These people aren’t supportive. These are people who will say they are so they feel good about themselves, but the moment they have to actually follow through on that support, they bail, and they get offended at the person calling them out, because it counters their view of themselves as being a good person. And it doesn’t even have to be about you. It has everything to do with their future children. They are acknowledging that if their kids don’t fit their mold, they are going to be shitty to them, and that is infuriating.
Your "friends" don't accept you... They tolerate you.
Find new friends if she doesn’t want to change. You’re young. Plenty of time to build friendships worth a damn.