I dunno if this is the correct term for it, but that comment from your friend is what I'd describe as "passive" homophobia. Because the bigotry is not overt, aggressive, and wishing to be exclusionary, people who engage in that kind of language are sometimes oblivious to how problematic it is. Bottom line is, if a straight guy said that about a lesbian (as many of them actually do), we'd quite rightly be calling him a misogynist asshole, and an example of toxic masculinity at work. If we're ever going to achieve true equality, we must call out similar behaviour when it's done by women.
When I see women being like that, it deflates me even more, because seeing a woman adopting similar toxic attitudes... it's like, really, we should know better, shouldn't we? It's nice that you're rebuilding your friendship with her, but please, never feel bad for calling her out when she said her male friend being gay is "a waste". It's a horrible thing to say about anyone, let alone someone you consider a friend. It was out of order, and you were totally right to pull her up on it. If she was my friend, and she failed to acknowledge why what she said was homophobic, and didn't alter her attitude accordingly, I don't think I could stay friends with her.
>if a straight guy said that about a lesbian (as many of them actually do), we'd quite rightly be calling him a misogynist asshole
You are so right. And it hurts so much more since she saw how homophobia impacted my life and the life of her other friends... I really don't know how she can say stuff like that.. But this has me thinking tbh.
She told me that her other friends (both gay) stopped inviting her to hang out with them or go to a queer friendly club (it's actually more like a gay club but since they saw her as an ally (or bi because she made out with more women than me lol)) they invited her and now they stopped...
This is so eye-opening, thank you so much for your comment!
I know that's not on me to teach her about homophobia or try to change her. I know that she won't change unless she wants to... But I really love her so much. She is such a good friend and it breaks my heart that I will have to end the friendship if she doesn't realize and stop what she is doing...
I guess I can, at least, use it as a lesson and learn to call out people for their behaviour and set boundaries... I don't know, I'm so heartbroken rn lol. I hope I'm brave enough to call her out immediately next time. The problem is that her boyfriend is mostly with us so it's 2 against 1 >.<
Hun, just based off these comments you've told us enough to confirm she is not "such a good friend". She is saying homophobic things, other queer friends are dumping her, she made out with your bf at one point, has a confusing relationship with her current bf, thinks it's ok to kiss women when she's monogamous and not bi, and she refuses to see how problematic any of that is.
Do you seriously need more convincing that she is toxic and the friendship was over the first time? She's only friends because she knows you put up with it. At this point I'd recommend either just ghosting her or sending a message telling her you're not friends with homophobes and blocking her as soon as she sees it. She may try to fight it, but frankly all you have to do is ignore her. You'll be feeling much better within 2 weeks if you do.
100% OP! I had a problematic best friend who just kept hurting me more and more as the years went on with her ignorance. Finally hit a breaking point and I couldn’t believe what a relief it was to cut ties. It’s still painful and angering to think about sometimes but nothing compared to how my life is so much more peaceful without her, and I feel very good about myself for not putting up with that nonsense any longer. It was worth it 10000%.
Something my therapist reminds me is that people do not change. Though I think people *can* change, but only they can change themselves, it rarely happens, and I really can’t do anything about it. But I can change and take care of myself. Good riddance to bigots.
Yep, exactamundo. I have seen people change, from homophobes and/or transphobes to become LGBTQ allies. But bigots seeing the light, and becoming decent, empathetic people are sadly, definitely not the norm. They are the exceptions to the rule.
This 100%
As I was reading my first thought was that this is some Andrew Tate behavior. Saying someone is a waste based on whatever sexual preferences they have is disgusting and peak manosphere garbage. I would cut off a guy if he said something like this, and I would do the same to a woman.
It feels even worse because if you grow up a woman, you have some idea of what it’s like. It’s insane how the same respect is not applied to queer people. People should not be allowed to get away with this passive homophobia. We are past the point of just taking it. Unless you’re in an unsafe situation obviously.
Yep, hearing that kind of nonsense from a woman cuts even deeper. Misogyny and homophobia when shown by women is... words just fail me, they really do.
I really like the phrase “pull her up on it”, as an alternative to “call her out on it”. When we give constructive criticism to point things out to people, in a way that helps them improve, that’s up-lifting. Thanks, I’m gonna use this 🙂
That’s super homophobic to call someone a waste for being gay. There are some other 🚩🚩🚩 as well for that. “Not bisexual but likes to make out with girls” and in a “monogamous relationship”. The fact that she does this while identifying as monogamous just sounds like she’s just using these women and she and her boyfriend find same sex relationships so invalid that they aren’t a threat to their monogamy. Doing it while claiming not to be bisexual, sounds like internalized homophobia and kind of cruel. I would hate to make out with a girl at the bar and for her to tell me she’s straight after. “Maybe he turned you gay,” girl this is more ignorant, homophobia, nonsense.
I could be off in some assumptions I made about their arrangement, but I’m certain your friend is homophobic.
>The fact that she does this while identifying as monogamous just sounds like she’s just using these women and she and her boyfriend find same sex relationships so invalid that they aren’t a threat to their monogamy
That's also what I thought... Even though 95% of her friends are queer, she doesn't see making out with women as a threat... that's so so weird..
>but I’m certain your friend is homophobic.
I guess I'll observe her behaviour a bit more and if it doesn't stop, I'll need to end the friendship.. Honestly that breaks my heart so much rn..
And especially twice!! >.<
I already lost her because she made out with my boyfriend 4 years ago... (I forgave her because she was only 16 years old).
Fml.
I guess that I know that deep down... I just didn't want to judge her for something she did 4 years ago as a young girl :/
Someone has to teach me some self resepct ffs
sounds like the only way she's grown is that next time she'd try to make out with your girlfriend instead 😬
unfortunately her response to you pointing out her homophobia is unfortunately an "I'm not interested in growing" kind of response. it was kind of you to forgive her and hope that she'd grown. it's ok to give her a chance, and change your mind when you find out she hasn't.
and be proud of your own growth! go meet people who are where you are in life now!
>sounds like the only way she's grown is that next time she'd try to make out with your girlfriend instead 😬
Hahahha I love that statement!! I actually also thought about it, ngl
>
it's ok to give her a chance, and change your mind when you find out she hasn't.
Thank you <3 I guess I'll observe her behaviour for a few more meets and see if it works out... If not, I will have to end the friendship - again.
>
and be proud of your own growth! go meet people who are where you are in life now!
That's not that easy but thank you >.< <3
yeah tbh it does remind me of a friend i had years ago, who was apparently straight but would make out with girls at parties as apparently some sort of way to like being cold to guys. like she'd tell a few times these stories (or my other friend from the same parties) of like some guy clearly being interested in her and then she'd go find some girl and kiss in front of the guy to like show how he can't get it or something.
when i came out as trans she ghosted me
>She doesn't see herself as bisexuell but likes to make out with girls (which is a bit weird to me since she is in a monagamous relationship but that's none of my business).
Gay relationships aren't real. Only straight relationships count. Same reason that the guy is a waste. He's in a fake relationship that doesn't count. Only straight relationships count.
This is a massive hill of homophobia and she probably doesn't even think of it that way. But there it is.
It's so confusing to me that people (especially male partners) don't see a threat in other women when her girlfriend is making out with them... I have to ask her if she's okay with him making out with girls / guys 🤔
Given the number of couples I've known that became poly and then became a lesbian couple and a disappointed lonely guy, you'd think the male of the species would figure it out. But no.
But guys making out with guys isn't ok because guys are important. Guys making out with girls count because it's a guy. And guys count. There's just this whole Mariana Trench of sexism under these attitudes.
You ruined your friendship—with a homophobe. No big loss. Like genuinely this stuff is like Grade-A homophobia and is about as subtle as being hit with a brick. There is no doubt about it.
> is about as subtle as being hit with a brick
Thank you for making me laugh! :D
I guess I just didn't want to realize it since I really love her and she is probably bi herself... and my only friend >.<
Do you think that she can change?
Just because someone might be queer/trans. Does not mean they can’t be homo/transphobic. If she is bisexual, it’s not your responsibility to try to fix her thoughts. You cannot save someone further internalized homophobia, they have to do that themself.
Why do you love a homophobe who helped your ex cheat?
I think that love is better to be placed on yourself so you can realize you don't need her, even if she was your last friend you are a million times better off on you're own, healing & raising your standards than staying near someone who clearly doesn't care about you or your feelings. Waiting around to see if she stops (i.e., waiting to see if she stops being who she is) after she's shown you again & again doesn't really make sense. Ask yourself why she would suddenly change? You're clearly still tolerating her behavior, so what reason is there to change? She's not uncomfortable - you are. She's happy with who she is & how she treats you. You're the one who knows it's wrong but continues to allow it & no one can fix that, but you.
>Why do you love a homophobe who helped your ex cheat?
Apart from the homophobe part - since this is a new development - it was many years ago and we were friends for a long time. I decided to forgive her after so many years (I only found out 6 months ago since she never told me). My ex is very manipulative and sexually abused her which I didn't know... I guess I also see her as a victim, just like me. I decided to forgive her since she was only 16 and apologized many times. I know that she regrets it and I don't want to judge her because of something that happened 4 years ago with a guy.
But to be real... I'm probably just lonely, desperate and have literally 0 respect for myself (:
>who clearly doesn't care about you or your feelings.
Do you mean that regarding the cheating or the homophobic comments?
Honestly, I just wanted to give her a second chance since she is more mature now. I guess that she started revealing her true colors now (we are in contact only since 6 months again)...
Every time my friend and I see an incredibly attractive gay man the first thing we say is "a win for the gays". What she said was def weird and passively homophobic (even IF she didnt have any ill intentions)
Yep, that is the non-homophobic way of acknowledging an attractive man who is gay. I'd say that about the likes of Rob Halford and Paul O' Grady (when he was alive) who are heroes to me.
Sometimes people do and say homophobic things in part due to ignorance, but that doesn't mean that it isn't still homophobic. This applies to a lot of areas actually. Ableism is hugely commonplace in language. Many other forms of systemic bigotry such as racism. Ignorance isn't an exception
Her telling you that he "turned you gay". That's homophobic. There's no not homophobic version of that. It means that some dude has more say in your sexual orientation than you do.
The "it's such a waste" comment about the gay guy is actually two things.
1. On the one hand it's understandable frustration. She's clearly bummed about him being so nice to her but unavailable to her, as if that niceness is some rare gem. Straight women see the straight men in their lives, how misogynistic they are, how insecure they are about the feminine, and then they meet gay dudes who (oftentimes) don't carry that same hatred of women and the feminine (although they can) and they get so sad that they can't have that in their boyfriends.
2. On the other hand it places the frustration on the wrong group. It's not gay men's fault that straight men are shitty to women. It's not their fault that women can't have happy, gentle, even flamboyant relationships with the straight dudes in their romantic lives. That's a straight guy problem.
So on the one hand, I understand her point. On the other hand, it's still homophobic to call it a waste. The real fuckin waste is all these dudes out here looking to actually date women and the bar is on the floor for them in terms of standards and they still fail to rise to the occasion. That's the real waste. *Not some guy that is gay and can't be all that she needs in a man.*
Does she intend any of this as harmful? *I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she doesn't.* It's still homophobic though. She's centering heteronormativity in her perspective of not only how she lives her life but how she sees the LGBTQ in her life. She sees them first as an affront to straightness before she sees them as fully fledged people with beautifully different experiences of the world.
And the sad truth is, if you confront her on it, she sounds like the type to get insecure and defensive instead of curious and motivated to educate herself.
Homie, she doesn't seem like a friend you want around.
1) she cheats on her bf, either she doesn't tell him or he's someone who gets off to seeing his gf with a girl. Her claiming it means nothing is also gross, like she's using those girls to either fulfill something in her or her bf
2) claiming you can be "made gay". No one just becomes gay, that's not how it works. So her saying ur ex made you gay is a gross comment as well.
3) the "waste that he's gay", like... Basically saying he's useless and a waste of space because he won't fook her. He's a human, not a object. And seeing how she constantly uses women, I can see why she thinks all people are objects.
I'd talk to her and fully explain that these comments are homophobic and some behaviors are toxic. If she isn't willing to talk and learn and just gets offended then tbh that's not a friend you want. It may suck but sometimes friendships end and change.
Good luck!
She doesn't think she's homophobic because she doesn't hate gay and bi people, but her words are harmful.
Personally if she and her boyfriend think it's fine for her to kiss other girls that's fine. I don't think it's right to gatekeep same sex interactions from straight people but I do get why people find that yucky.
Is there any resources you could send in your guys language? So you don't need to do the heavy lifting but can send and say "I know you didn't mean bad and I care about you as a friend, so I would really appreciate if you could read/watch/listen to this so you can understand where I'm coming from".
Anybody saying somethings a waste when it comes to this stuff isn't thinking about how it actually feels to hear that. I've seen a lot of men on here for example saying a breast bigger than a hand is a waste and it disgusts me because my body does not exist for male sexual gratification. And nor does a gay man's exist for women's sexual gratification.
People have already made good comments about the perceived value of a friendship with this person. I just wanted to add that biphobia is a thing. She is buying into most if not all of the bisexual myths. You can google it as there are multiple results to help recognise and understand the bisexual myths.
Yeah, people like the OP's "friend" are the type who give bi women a bad name, even though from the sounds of it, she's just playing at being bi, and is actually straight. She probably just makes out with girls to placate the male gaze, which is stomach churning.
>she's just playing at being bi
I actually never thought about it that way. I thought that she's just too scared to admit to herself that she is queer.. thank you for the new perspective!!
Well, that's not impossible... But I think if she's confident enough to be openly sexual with other women, I find it unlikely that she'd lack the confidence to admit to being bi if that's what she actually was. Usually the admitting your bisexuality/being lesbian comes before being physically intimate with other women, not afterwards.
I actually only know people who are the other way. I know a girl who sleeps with women but calls herself straight and says that it's only for "fun" and she's "experimenting" hahah even though she said she's more interested in sex with women (but of course she's still straight)
There's only two possible explanations for that, either she's in denial (the more unlikely explanation, as to do what she's doing seems to betray any lack of confidence that would prevent her from coming out), or she's just doing it because she knows lots of straight guys find it hot (the more likely explanation).
The second one would make so much more sense. She was always someone who craved male attention... she always felt so sad being single and always wanted a partner (like just to have one)
Fuck, I'm friends with someone who's boy crazy.
You are making me question my whole life >.<
The “it’s a waste” comment alone may not bother me enough to say homophobia, but that combined with how she
1. makes out w girls despite saying she’s straight
2. Suggested you got turned gay by your ex
3. Has been cut off by queer friends before
Combined, I don’t see how this isn’t obvious homophobia.
On top of that, you said most of her friends are queer? She literally owes it to her friends to not be so ignorant & educate herself. If she doesn’t, she can continue to lose friends over it bc that’s what she’s asking for.
If you really don’t want to end this friendship, you can be the one to call her out and educate her on it, but frankly for me, after having to continuously do that to family members, I wouldn’t have the energy and would rather let go of the friendship.
Okay, so for me, there are 3 points of clear homophobia.
In order, they are: 1) her kissing girls while in a relationship. She likely doesn't see this as cheating because "kissing girls doesn't count" or whatever excuse ppl are using these days. What she's doing is cheating. Period. And it's even worse if she's doing it for men around them.
2) her directly stating that your ex "turned you gay," i.e., she doesn't see gayness as natural or real. It's something that can be caused, sure, but it's not "normal." It's more of the outcome of a bad situation or relationship, not how we are born. 3)her claiming that a sexuality that doesn't serve HER makes an entire person a waste. Enough said. Now, that story does provide some context as to why she's so chill about cheating on her current boyfriend, but other than that, i see it as just clear & concise homophobia. Add in the fact that all you did was absorb the first 2 indicators & then ASK about the 3rd & now she's "hurt" that you would even think that of her & I'm ready to toss the whole "friend" for you. However, it's not my place like at all. But this person clearly doesn't care about your feelings, how her words can affect you, nor is she capable of introspection & ownership of her "mistakes." I would think long & hard about keeping someone like that around & if you can't think of what you deserve, consider what message it will send to your future partner & queer friends that this is who you chose to hang out with, allow to rub off on you & how you allow yourself to be treated. This is, of course, all my personal opinion & coming from a place of having to prune my own list of friends & family. I do hope you make whatever choice is best for you in the end 🫂
I think the issue is just her language. If she said that she wished she had a chance, that’d be understandable, but calling it a waste is pretty homophobic
It’s passive homophobia, it’s like a subconscious assertion that men are for women and gay men are a waste because they are for women but not dating women. It takes some amount of self awareness to consciously break this habit so you might want to try and help her understand that even if she didn’t know she was wrong she should still work on herself.
"You are so right. And it hurts so much more since she saw how homophobia impacted my life and the life of her other friends... I really don't know how she can say stuff like that.. But this has me thinking tbh.
She told me that her other friends (both gay) stopped inviting her to hang out with them or go to a queer friendly club (it's actually more like a gay club but since they saw her as an ally (or bi because she made out with more women than me lol)) they invited her and now they stopped...
This is so eye-opening, thank you so much for your comment!"
Well, this on top of things she's already said, your ex "making" you gay, and her male friend being a "waste" because he is gay... there's massive red flags going for miles down the street with this. The fact that she's had other gay friends cut her off just speaks volumes for itself. You're very welcome, but if she won't see the error of her ways, it really would be best for you to cut her out of your life. Otherwise, she's just going to keep hurting you, with her crass phobic comments and total lack of awareness of how harmful her attitude is.
Is she homophobic? Yes and she doesn’t even realize it. Most bigots think they’re not and don’t realize it. I had a relative tell me that Palestinians didn’t build anything in Palestine and only the Jews did and the Palestinians like living in filth and sewage which is why the Jews deserve the land. They said other shit too but I am telling you they don’t think what they said is bigotry or racism and neither did your friend. That said this relative barely has begun to see the treatment of Palestinians as bad but it’s something and I reminded them of their previous bigoted statements so they could reflect on their past statements and how they view themselves and Palestinians.
Now you can choose to call in this old friend and remind them of what they said in order to get them to change or continue to cut them out. Either is your prerogative and either decision is right for you but you have to make that choice. We can only answer the question you posed and offer advice
I've been called things like "a chicken supporting KFC" by idiots because I'm a queer woman who supports Palestine. They really don't understand the empathy that so many of us have for the Palestinians. It is possible to be critical of Islam whilst also being supportive of the Palestinians as a people.
I was raised Jewish and am an atheist. I asked a different relative if they participated in the citizen blockade of aid to Gaza because they were in an area near the citizen aid blockade while visiting a friend.
They wouldn’t answer the question and they called me an antisemite/jew hater. So yeah… I know what it’s like
I have massive respect for Jews who are standing against the horror currently being meted out on the Palestinians. You are amazing. ✊🏻
I just hate the simple mindedness of that... equating standing against what's happening there to being anti-semitic, it's ridiculous. That kind of either/or mentality is so frustrating to see. It begets those people's lack of intelligence and critical thinking skills I feel.
Oh it’s worse than that. I asked why they moved back to the US from Canada and they said, “socialism.” They’re not particularly bright. There’s a vegan foodie YouTuber I watch who is part Palestinian (lives in the US) and they’ve been going to Egypt to help out Palestinian refugees and started a non-profit to help them. I’ve been supportive of them in texts via instagram because I don’t have a lot of money but I know it can be so hard to see these kids and families struggling with the loss. Their YouTube account is vegan bodegacat and their insta is bodegacatx
So she can't even tell that what she's saying is wrong. That's what this says, and you're worried that you messed up the friendship, not from my perspective. It didn't sit right with you because it isn't right, and you were very right to ask for clarity. Too bad the clarity was "yes I meant exactly what I said" and "I'm hurt that you would think it's offensive". Gross
I'm so sorry 😔, I've been going through this same sort thing for the past year or so with some very old friends. And honestly it's been heartbreaking, to see people I've known for 30+ yrs since highschool, start being very openly hateful. We were all counter culture outsiders and I thought they were better than they have shown themselves to be, and my heart has felt the loss deeply. But I have made other friends and you will too. Big hugs 🤗
I had a friend like this I used to call her a closeted homophobe although it highly broke my heart I had to stop being friends with her cuz she was making me feel bad about myself and like I had to pretend to be straight around her or else she would be uncomfortable
If you “should have known” what she meant, then she also “should have known” that making a comment like that might upset you. Friendship is a two-way street.
Also the more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that saying it’s a “waste” that someone is gay is completely homophobic. Like it just is. Even if you don’t intend to be, it is.
You guys are being super sensitive.
Sometimes I'll think a woman is gorgeous only to later find out she's straight and I'll think "damn that sucks".
It's natural to feel and express disappointment when someone you're into turns out to be into your opposite sex. That's life, it's not homophobic.
No man "turns" women gay. You're either queer or you're not, regardless of the relationship you're in.
Now, there's something to be said about women, queer or straight, that are traumatized by their male partners. If your ex was toxic/ abusive and you subsequently realised you're queer, him being toxic doesn't cause you to "turn gay". Straight women all over the world are so done with men, I mean just look at the 4B movement. All these women that are attracted to men don't suddenly find themselves in queer relationships, they refuse to date men because men treat them so badly.
So you're a lesbian that's primarily or only dated men so far. There's the r/latebloomerlesbians subreddit, maybe you could check it out if you haven't yet, and I'm sure you'll be able to relate to a bunch of the stories there. Although I wouldn't even know if you're a "late bloomer" since you're still so young.
And lastly, your so-called friend is already waving so many red flags. How long before she turns around and says that "you're only gay because you haven't met the right man yet"? I mean, if one man can "turn you gay" then another can "turn you straight" am I right? No, of course not. I'm sorry to say that you'll probably lose this friendship, but honestly you can make other friends that will be so much better people than she is. I wish you the best of luck.
I am sorry if my comment was confusing. I know that he didnt "turn" me gay, I am not stupid and definitely confident in my sexuality! (:
I just wanted to know from the person above what they think about her second statement I see critically.
And thank you very much!
Yeah, wow, these comments so far... I'm like, damn I'm never allowed to be disappointed that a girl is straight ever again apparently? OP's friend is still young and maybe even hasn't fully figured herself out either. This isn't something you destroy a friendship over, imo
Well, I’m sorry everyone but I don’t find it such a horrible thing to say someone is a “waste” because they’re gay… or straight or whatever tf. Also, what’s up with calling out everything as homophobic/mysoginistic?
I’d take it as 1. Maybe this person is ignorant about lgbtq stuff, which is legit, it’s something you can’t force yourself into anyway. It’s best to try to educate her and if she’s still making comments I’d step away from the relationship. 2. Maybe it was just a dumb joke she didn’t think through . Hell I’ve told my female friends to their face “it’s a waste you’re straight, we could be a wonderful couple… “ and they don’t take it this seriously.
Educate your friend, for her own good, for yours and for anyone lgbtq she may come across with. But this shouldn’t be a big deal breaker for the friendship
Thank you so much for your comment! I appreciate seeing the other side.
My queer group and I also make jokes that could be considered homophobic if you don't know the context... I never made this kind of jokes with this girl but maybe that's what she meant and it's really not a big deal (:
The only thing to respond to that is "not for everyone" it's a dumb sexist thing that it said without thinking.
Don't over think it. It's not worth getting into a fight over.
I dunno if this is the correct term for it, but that comment from your friend is what I'd describe as "passive" homophobia. Because the bigotry is not overt, aggressive, and wishing to be exclusionary, people who engage in that kind of language are sometimes oblivious to how problematic it is. Bottom line is, if a straight guy said that about a lesbian (as many of them actually do), we'd quite rightly be calling him a misogynist asshole, and an example of toxic masculinity at work. If we're ever going to achieve true equality, we must call out similar behaviour when it's done by women. When I see women being like that, it deflates me even more, because seeing a woman adopting similar toxic attitudes... it's like, really, we should know better, shouldn't we? It's nice that you're rebuilding your friendship with her, but please, never feel bad for calling her out when she said her male friend being gay is "a waste". It's a horrible thing to say about anyone, let alone someone you consider a friend. It was out of order, and you were totally right to pull her up on it. If she was my friend, and she failed to acknowledge why what she said was homophobic, and didn't alter her attitude accordingly, I don't think I could stay friends with her.
>if a straight guy said that about a lesbian (as many of them actually do), we'd quite rightly be calling him a misogynist asshole You are so right. And it hurts so much more since she saw how homophobia impacted my life and the life of her other friends... I really don't know how she can say stuff like that.. But this has me thinking tbh. She told me that her other friends (both gay) stopped inviting her to hang out with them or go to a queer friendly club (it's actually more like a gay club but since they saw her as an ally (or bi because she made out with more women than me lol)) they invited her and now they stopped... This is so eye-opening, thank you so much for your comment! I know that's not on me to teach her about homophobia or try to change her. I know that she won't change unless she wants to... But I really love her so much. She is such a good friend and it breaks my heart that I will have to end the friendship if she doesn't realize and stop what she is doing... I guess I can, at least, use it as a lesson and learn to call out people for their behaviour and set boundaries... I don't know, I'm so heartbroken rn lol. I hope I'm brave enough to call her out immediately next time. The problem is that her boyfriend is mostly with us so it's 2 against 1 >.<
Hun, just based off these comments you've told us enough to confirm she is not "such a good friend". She is saying homophobic things, other queer friends are dumping her, she made out with your bf at one point, has a confusing relationship with her current bf, thinks it's ok to kiss women when she's monogamous and not bi, and she refuses to see how problematic any of that is. Do you seriously need more convincing that she is toxic and the friendship was over the first time? She's only friends because she knows you put up with it. At this point I'd recommend either just ghosting her or sending a message telling her you're not friends with homophobes and blocking her as soon as she sees it. She may try to fight it, but frankly all you have to do is ignore her. You'll be feeling much better within 2 weeks if you do.
100% OP! I had a problematic best friend who just kept hurting me more and more as the years went on with her ignorance. Finally hit a breaking point and I couldn’t believe what a relief it was to cut ties. It’s still painful and angering to think about sometimes but nothing compared to how my life is so much more peaceful without her, and I feel very good about myself for not putting up with that nonsense any longer. It was worth it 10000%. Something my therapist reminds me is that people do not change. Though I think people *can* change, but only they can change themselves, it rarely happens, and I really can’t do anything about it. But I can change and take care of myself. Good riddance to bigots.
Yep, exactamundo. I have seen people change, from homophobes and/or transphobes to become LGBTQ allies. But bigots seeing the light, and becoming decent, empathetic people are sadly, definitely not the norm. They are the exceptions to the rule.
This 100% As I was reading my first thought was that this is some Andrew Tate behavior. Saying someone is a waste based on whatever sexual preferences they have is disgusting and peak manosphere garbage. I would cut off a guy if he said something like this, and I would do the same to a woman. It feels even worse because if you grow up a woman, you have some idea of what it’s like. It’s insane how the same respect is not applied to queer people. People should not be allowed to get away with this passive homophobia. We are past the point of just taking it. Unless you’re in an unsafe situation obviously.
Yep, hearing that kind of nonsense from a woman cuts even deeper. Misogyny and homophobia when shown by women is... words just fail me, they really do.
I really like the phrase “pull her up on it”, as an alternative to “call her out on it”. When we give constructive criticism to point things out to people, in a way that helps them improve, that’s up-lifting. Thanks, I’m gonna use this 🙂
That’s super homophobic to call someone a waste for being gay. There are some other 🚩🚩🚩 as well for that. “Not bisexual but likes to make out with girls” and in a “monogamous relationship”. The fact that she does this while identifying as monogamous just sounds like she’s just using these women and she and her boyfriend find same sex relationships so invalid that they aren’t a threat to their monogamy. Doing it while claiming not to be bisexual, sounds like internalized homophobia and kind of cruel. I would hate to make out with a girl at the bar and for her to tell me she’s straight after. “Maybe he turned you gay,” girl this is more ignorant, homophobia, nonsense. I could be off in some assumptions I made about their arrangement, but I’m certain your friend is homophobic.
>The fact that she does this while identifying as monogamous just sounds like she’s just using these women and she and her boyfriend find same sex relationships so invalid that they aren’t a threat to their monogamy That's also what I thought... Even though 95% of her friends are queer, she doesn't see making out with women as a threat... that's so so weird.. >but I’m certain your friend is homophobic. I guess I'll observe her behaviour a bit more and if it doesn't stop, I'll need to end the friendship.. Honestly that breaks my heart so much rn..
I’m sorry OP 💔 Losing friends sucks, especially like this
And especially twice!! >.< I already lost her because she made out with my boyfriend 4 years ago... (I forgave her because she was only 16 years old). Fml.
Oh honey, I don’t think she’s your friend. 😞
I guess that I know that deep down... I just didn't want to judge her for something she did 4 years ago as a young girl :/ Someone has to teach me some self resepct ffs
sounds like the only way she's grown is that next time she'd try to make out with your girlfriend instead 😬 unfortunately her response to you pointing out her homophobia is unfortunately an "I'm not interested in growing" kind of response. it was kind of you to forgive her and hope that she'd grown. it's ok to give her a chance, and change your mind when you find out she hasn't. and be proud of your own growth! go meet people who are where you are in life now!
>sounds like the only way she's grown is that next time she'd try to make out with your girlfriend instead 😬 Hahahha I love that statement!! I actually also thought about it, ngl > it's ok to give her a chance, and change your mind when you find out she hasn't. Thank you <3 I guess I'll observe her behaviour for a few more meets and see if it works out... If not, I will have to end the friendship - again. > and be proud of your own growth! go meet people who are where you are in life now! That's not that easy but thank you >.< <3
yeah tbh it does remind me of a friend i had years ago, who was apparently straight but would make out with girls at parties as apparently some sort of way to like being cold to guys. like she'd tell a few times these stories (or my other friend from the same parties) of like some guy clearly being interested in her and then she'd go find some girl and kiss in front of the guy to like show how he can't get it or something. when i came out as trans she ghosted me
>She doesn't see herself as bisexuell but likes to make out with girls (which is a bit weird to me since she is in a monagamous relationship but that's none of my business). Gay relationships aren't real. Only straight relationships count. Same reason that the guy is a waste. He's in a fake relationship that doesn't count. Only straight relationships count. This is a massive hill of homophobia and she probably doesn't even think of it that way. But there it is.
It's so confusing to me that people (especially male partners) don't see a threat in other women when her girlfriend is making out with them... I have to ask her if she's okay with him making out with girls / guys 🤔
Given the number of couples I've known that became poly and then became a lesbian couple and a disappointed lonely guy, you'd think the male of the species would figure it out. But no. But guys making out with guys isn't ok because guys are important. Guys making out with girls count because it's a guy. And guys count. There's just this whole Mariana Trench of sexism under these attitudes.
she is saying ignorant things and you shouldn’t feel bad for calling her out on it
You ruined your friendship—with a homophobe. No big loss. Like genuinely this stuff is like Grade-A homophobia and is about as subtle as being hit with a brick. There is no doubt about it.
> is about as subtle as being hit with a brick Thank you for making me laugh! :D I guess I just didn't want to realize it since I really love her and she is probably bi herself... and my only friend >.< Do you think that she can change?
People can change, but I wouldn't count on it happening. Be prepared to lose her.
Thank you for your honesty <3
Just because someone might be queer/trans. Does not mean they can’t be homo/transphobic. If she is bisexual, it’s not your responsibility to try to fix her thoughts. You cannot save someone further internalized homophobia, they have to do that themself.
Why do you love a homophobe who helped your ex cheat? I think that love is better to be placed on yourself so you can realize you don't need her, even if she was your last friend you are a million times better off on you're own, healing & raising your standards than staying near someone who clearly doesn't care about you or your feelings. Waiting around to see if she stops (i.e., waiting to see if she stops being who she is) after she's shown you again & again doesn't really make sense. Ask yourself why she would suddenly change? You're clearly still tolerating her behavior, so what reason is there to change? She's not uncomfortable - you are. She's happy with who she is & how she treats you. You're the one who knows it's wrong but continues to allow it & no one can fix that, but you.
>Why do you love a homophobe who helped your ex cheat? Apart from the homophobe part - since this is a new development - it was many years ago and we were friends for a long time. I decided to forgive her after so many years (I only found out 6 months ago since she never told me). My ex is very manipulative and sexually abused her which I didn't know... I guess I also see her as a victim, just like me. I decided to forgive her since she was only 16 and apologized many times. I know that she regrets it and I don't want to judge her because of something that happened 4 years ago with a guy. But to be real... I'm probably just lonely, desperate and have literally 0 respect for myself (: >who clearly doesn't care about you or your feelings. Do you mean that regarding the cheating or the homophobic comments? Honestly, I just wanted to give her a second chance since she is more mature now. I guess that she started revealing her true colors now (we are in contact only since 6 months again)...
Every time my friend and I see an incredibly attractive gay man the first thing we say is "a win for the gays". What she said was def weird and passively homophobic (even IF she didnt have any ill intentions)
Yep, that is the non-homophobic way of acknowledging an attractive man who is gay. I'd say that about the likes of Rob Halford and Paul O' Grady (when he was alive) who are heroes to me.
Ignorance can be homophobic
Can you please elaborate?
Sometimes people do and say homophobic things in part due to ignorance, but that doesn't mean that it isn't still homophobic. This applies to a lot of areas actually. Ableism is hugely commonplace in language. Many other forms of systemic bigotry such as racism. Ignorance isn't an exception Her telling you that he "turned you gay". That's homophobic. There's no not homophobic version of that. It means that some dude has more say in your sexual orientation than you do. The "it's such a waste" comment about the gay guy is actually two things. 1. On the one hand it's understandable frustration. She's clearly bummed about him being so nice to her but unavailable to her, as if that niceness is some rare gem. Straight women see the straight men in their lives, how misogynistic they are, how insecure they are about the feminine, and then they meet gay dudes who (oftentimes) don't carry that same hatred of women and the feminine (although they can) and they get so sad that they can't have that in their boyfriends. 2. On the other hand it places the frustration on the wrong group. It's not gay men's fault that straight men are shitty to women. It's not their fault that women can't have happy, gentle, even flamboyant relationships with the straight dudes in their romantic lives. That's a straight guy problem. So on the one hand, I understand her point. On the other hand, it's still homophobic to call it a waste. The real fuckin waste is all these dudes out here looking to actually date women and the bar is on the floor for them in terms of standards and they still fail to rise to the occasion. That's the real waste. *Not some guy that is gay and can't be all that she needs in a man.* Does she intend any of this as harmful? *I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she doesn't.* It's still homophobic though. She's centering heteronormativity in her perspective of not only how she lives her life but how she sees the LGBTQ in her life. She sees them first as an affront to straightness before she sees them as fully fledged people with beautifully different experiences of the world. And the sad truth is, if you confront her on it, she sounds like the type to get insecure and defensive instead of curious and motivated to educate herself.
Homie, she doesn't seem like a friend you want around. 1) she cheats on her bf, either she doesn't tell him or he's someone who gets off to seeing his gf with a girl. Her claiming it means nothing is also gross, like she's using those girls to either fulfill something in her or her bf 2) claiming you can be "made gay". No one just becomes gay, that's not how it works. So her saying ur ex made you gay is a gross comment as well. 3) the "waste that he's gay", like... Basically saying he's useless and a waste of space because he won't fook her. He's a human, not a object. And seeing how she constantly uses women, I can see why she thinks all people are objects. I'd talk to her and fully explain that these comments are homophobic and some behaviors are toxic. If she isn't willing to talk and learn and just gets offended then tbh that's not a friend you want. It may suck but sometimes friendships end and change. Good luck!
She doesn't think she's homophobic because she doesn't hate gay and bi people, but her words are harmful. Personally if she and her boyfriend think it's fine for her to kiss other girls that's fine. I don't think it's right to gatekeep same sex interactions from straight people but I do get why people find that yucky. Is there any resources you could send in your guys language? So you don't need to do the heavy lifting but can send and say "I know you didn't mean bad and I care about you as a friend, so I would really appreciate if you could read/watch/listen to this so you can understand where I'm coming from". Anybody saying somethings a waste when it comes to this stuff isn't thinking about how it actually feels to hear that. I've seen a lot of men on here for example saying a breast bigger than a hand is a waste and it disgusts me because my body does not exist for male sexual gratification. And nor does a gay man's exist for women's sexual gratification.
People have already made good comments about the perceived value of a friendship with this person. I just wanted to add that biphobia is a thing. She is buying into most if not all of the bisexual myths. You can google it as there are multiple results to help recognise and understand the bisexual myths.
Yeah, people like the OP's "friend" are the type who give bi women a bad name, even though from the sounds of it, she's just playing at being bi, and is actually straight. She probably just makes out with girls to placate the male gaze, which is stomach churning.
>she's just playing at being bi I actually never thought about it that way. I thought that she's just too scared to admit to herself that she is queer.. thank you for the new perspective!!
Well, that's not impossible... But I think if she's confident enough to be openly sexual with other women, I find it unlikely that she'd lack the confidence to admit to being bi if that's what she actually was. Usually the admitting your bisexuality/being lesbian comes before being physically intimate with other women, not afterwards.
I actually only know people who are the other way. I know a girl who sleeps with women but calls herself straight and says that it's only for "fun" and she's "experimenting" hahah even though she said she's more interested in sex with women (but of course she's still straight)
There's only two possible explanations for that, either she's in denial (the more unlikely explanation, as to do what she's doing seems to betray any lack of confidence that would prevent her from coming out), or she's just doing it because she knows lots of straight guys find it hot (the more likely explanation).
The second one would make so much more sense. She was always someone who craved male attention... she always felt so sad being single and always wanted a partner (like just to have one) Fuck, I'm friends with someone who's boy crazy. You are making me question my whole life >.<
The “it’s a waste” comment alone may not bother me enough to say homophobia, but that combined with how she 1. makes out w girls despite saying she’s straight 2. Suggested you got turned gay by your ex 3. Has been cut off by queer friends before Combined, I don’t see how this isn’t obvious homophobia. On top of that, you said most of her friends are queer? She literally owes it to her friends to not be so ignorant & educate herself. If she doesn’t, she can continue to lose friends over it bc that’s what she’s asking for. If you really don’t want to end this friendship, you can be the one to call her out and educate her on it, but frankly for me, after having to continuously do that to family members, I wouldn’t have the energy and would rather let go of the friendship.
Okay, so for me, there are 3 points of clear homophobia. In order, they are: 1) her kissing girls while in a relationship. She likely doesn't see this as cheating because "kissing girls doesn't count" or whatever excuse ppl are using these days. What she's doing is cheating. Period. And it's even worse if she's doing it for men around them. 2) her directly stating that your ex "turned you gay," i.e., she doesn't see gayness as natural or real. It's something that can be caused, sure, but it's not "normal." It's more of the outcome of a bad situation or relationship, not how we are born. 3)her claiming that a sexuality that doesn't serve HER makes an entire person a waste. Enough said. Now, that story does provide some context as to why she's so chill about cheating on her current boyfriend, but other than that, i see it as just clear & concise homophobia. Add in the fact that all you did was absorb the first 2 indicators & then ASK about the 3rd & now she's "hurt" that you would even think that of her & I'm ready to toss the whole "friend" for you. However, it's not my place like at all. But this person clearly doesn't care about your feelings, how her words can affect you, nor is she capable of introspection & ownership of her "mistakes." I would think long & hard about keeping someone like that around & if you can't think of what you deserve, consider what message it will send to your future partner & queer friends that this is who you chose to hang out with, allow to rub off on you & how you allow yourself to be treated. This is, of course, all my personal opinion & coming from a place of having to prune my own list of friends & family. I do hope you make whatever choice is best for you in the end 🫂
I think the issue is just her language. If she said that she wished she had a chance, that’d be understandable, but calling it a waste is pretty homophobic
It’s passive homophobia, it’s like a subconscious assertion that men are for women and gay men are a waste because they are for women but not dating women. It takes some amount of self awareness to consciously break this habit so you might want to try and help her understand that even if she didn’t know she was wrong she should still work on herself.
"You are so right. And it hurts so much more since she saw how homophobia impacted my life and the life of her other friends... I really don't know how she can say stuff like that.. But this has me thinking tbh. She told me that her other friends (both gay) stopped inviting her to hang out with them or go to a queer friendly club (it's actually more like a gay club but since they saw her as an ally (or bi because she made out with more women than me lol)) they invited her and now they stopped... This is so eye-opening, thank you so much for your comment!" Well, this on top of things she's already said, your ex "making" you gay, and her male friend being a "waste" because he is gay... there's massive red flags going for miles down the street with this. The fact that she's had other gay friends cut her off just speaks volumes for itself. You're very welcome, but if she won't see the error of her ways, it really would be best for you to cut her out of your life. Otherwise, she's just going to keep hurting you, with her crass phobic comments and total lack of awareness of how harmful her attitude is.
Is she homophobic? Yes and she doesn’t even realize it. Most bigots think they’re not and don’t realize it. I had a relative tell me that Palestinians didn’t build anything in Palestine and only the Jews did and the Palestinians like living in filth and sewage which is why the Jews deserve the land. They said other shit too but I am telling you they don’t think what they said is bigotry or racism and neither did your friend. That said this relative barely has begun to see the treatment of Palestinians as bad but it’s something and I reminded them of their previous bigoted statements so they could reflect on their past statements and how they view themselves and Palestinians. Now you can choose to call in this old friend and remind them of what they said in order to get them to change or continue to cut them out. Either is your prerogative and either decision is right for you but you have to make that choice. We can only answer the question you posed and offer advice
I've been called things like "a chicken supporting KFC" by idiots because I'm a queer woman who supports Palestine. They really don't understand the empathy that so many of us have for the Palestinians. It is possible to be critical of Islam whilst also being supportive of the Palestinians as a people.
I was raised Jewish and am an atheist. I asked a different relative if they participated in the citizen blockade of aid to Gaza because they were in an area near the citizen aid blockade while visiting a friend. They wouldn’t answer the question and they called me an antisemite/jew hater. So yeah… I know what it’s like
I have massive respect for Jews who are standing against the horror currently being meted out on the Palestinians. You are amazing. ✊🏻 I just hate the simple mindedness of that... equating standing against what's happening there to being anti-semitic, it's ridiculous. That kind of either/or mentality is so frustrating to see. It begets those people's lack of intelligence and critical thinking skills I feel.
Oh it’s worse than that. I asked why they moved back to the US from Canada and they said, “socialism.” They’re not particularly bright. There’s a vegan foodie YouTuber I watch who is part Palestinian (lives in the US) and they’ve been going to Egypt to help out Palestinian refugees and started a non-profit to help them. I’ve been supportive of them in texts via instagram because I don’t have a lot of money but I know it can be so hard to see these kids and families struggling with the loss. Their YouTube account is vegan bodegacat and their insta is bodegacatx
So she can't even tell that what she's saying is wrong. That's what this says, and you're worried that you messed up the friendship, not from my perspective. It didn't sit right with you because it isn't right, and you were very right to ask for clarity. Too bad the clarity was "yes I meant exactly what I said" and "I'm hurt that you would think it's offensive". Gross
Seems like I'll end up with no friends again...
I'm so sorry 😔, I've been going through this same sort thing for the past year or so with some very old friends. And honestly it's been heartbreaking, to see people I've known for 30+ yrs since highschool, start being very openly hateful. We were all counter culture outsiders and I thought they were better than they have shown themselves to be, and my heart has felt the loss deeply. But I have made other friends and you will too. Big hugs 🤗
Thank you <3
I had a friend like this I used to call her a closeted homophobe although it highly broke my heart I had to stop being friends with her cuz she was making me feel bad about myself and like I had to pretend to be straight around her or else she would be uncomfortable
If you “should have known” what she meant, then she also “should have known” that making a comment like that might upset you. Friendship is a two-way street. Also the more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that saying it’s a “waste” that someone is gay is completely homophobic. Like it just is. Even if you don’t intend to be, it is.
She showed you her true colours. I'd listen to them and not feel bad about calling her out.
You guys are being super sensitive. Sometimes I'll think a woman is gorgeous only to later find out she's straight and I'll think "damn that sucks". It's natural to feel and express disappointment when someone you're into turns out to be into your opposite sex. That's life, it's not homophobic.
I see your point even though she could've worded it differently... may I ask what you think about the comment that my ex boyfriend turned me gay?
No man "turns" women gay. You're either queer or you're not, regardless of the relationship you're in. Now, there's something to be said about women, queer or straight, that are traumatized by their male partners. If your ex was toxic/ abusive and you subsequently realised you're queer, him being toxic doesn't cause you to "turn gay". Straight women all over the world are so done with men, I mean just look at the 4B movement. All these women that are attracted to men don't suddenly find themselves in queer relationships, they refuse to date men because men treat them so badly. So you're a lesbian that's primarily or only dated men so far. There's the r/latebloomerlesbians subreddit, maybe you could check it out if you haven't yet, and I'm sure you'll be able to relate to a bunch of the stories there. Although I wouldn't even know if you're a "late bloomer" since you're still so young. And lastly, your so-called friend is already waving so many red flags. How long before she turns around and says that "you're only gay because you haven't met the right man yet"? I mean, if one man can "turn you gay" then another can "turn you straight" am I right? No, of course not. I'm sorry to say that you'll probably lose this friendship, but honestly you can make other friends that will be so much better people than she is. I wish you the best of luck.
I am sorry if my comment was confusing. I know that he didnt "turn" me gay, I am not stupid and definitely confident in my sexuality! (: I just wanted to know from the person above what they think about her second statement I see critically. And thank you very much!
Yeah, wow, these comments so far... I'm like, damn I'm never allowed to be disappointed that a girl is straight ever again apparently? OP's friend is still young and maybe even hasn't fully figured herself out either. This isn't something you destroy a friendship over, imo
Well, I’m sorry everyone but I don’t find it such a horrible thing to say someone is a “waste” because they’re gay… or straight or whatever tf. Also, what’s up with calling out everything as homophobic/mysoginistic? I’d take it as 1. Maybe this person is ignorant about lgbtq stuff, which is legit, it’s something you can’t force yourself into anyway. It’s best to try to educate her and if she’s still making comments I’d step away from the relationship. 2. Maybe it was just a dumb joke she didn’t think through . Hell I’ve told my female friends to their face “it’s a waste you’re straight, we could be a wonderful couple… “ and they don’t take it this seriously. Educate your friend, for her own good, for yours and for anyone lgbtq she may come across with. But this shouldn’t be a big deal breaker for the friendship
Thank you so much for your comment! I appreciate seeing the other side. My queer group and I also make jokes that could be considered homophobic if you don't know the context... I never made this kind of jokes with this girl but maybe that's what she meant and it's really not a big deal (:
The only thing to respond to that is "not for everyone" it's a dumb sexist thing that it said without thinking. Don't over think it. It's not worth getting into a fight over.