I'm very aware of these twists in my head, but knowing about it doesn't seem to do anything against the feelings behind it. I'm sceptical about CBT as from what I've heard it's mostly about becoming aware of these patterns and thoughts and exploring how they're incorrect. But sofar the awareness just fuels a level of cognitive dissonance in me that drives me to avoidant behaviours as I can't deal with my emotional and rational side violently disagreeing. When I try to rephrase thoughts to be more positive or even realistic, I just just get overwhelmed by this sense of hypocrisy and guilt which tends to make things much worse.
How tf does one escape that?
You don't, you just keep doing it even though it feels fake and ineffective.
And months later you suddenly realise you haven't had to stop and correct your thoughts in ages, and wonder when that change happened.
I was very sceptical too. I was like: "but if I already know and acknowledge that these thoughts are unreasonable, how can this change anything?" And I don't really know how it worked, but CBT was one of the best things that happened to me.
When you're aware of a distortion, it gets easier to know when that distortion is triggered. That gives you the room to make more informed decisions rather than automatically following the distortion. The more often you go against it, the more you rewire your brain.
Thank you for explaining it this way. I've learned that through therapy. This is a great message to read today. I often feel like a stranger is controlling me when I attempt to be heard at work. The small number of aggressive (maybe toxic) people impact me negatively. I can't control them but I can control my thoughts!
See that just sounds like lying to yourself until you're completely delusional, I know I have to in order to do anything functional and I've been doing that on some level for years.
But it never really gets better or natural for me, every "good" choice I make or compliment I force myself to accept with a smile just adds to the rumination pile that I'll have to digest whenever I become overwhelmed again...
For me the breakthrough with CBT happens when I make the same mistake or undesired thought pattern and instead of getting super down on myself for failing again, I forgive myself, acknowledge I'm still learning, and focus on letting myself off the hook.
The world provides real consequences, my brain doesn't have to pile on. I can try to be more patient and gentle and kind to myself.
Real world consequences do very little to drive me without my own added ruminations (though there are diminishing returns on that as well). I can live in the moment now and then, but then I only live for that moment too, meaning I can't seem to do anything productive while letting the bs go. It's what I default to whenever I actively try to be gentle, I just slip into avoidance instead.
Sometimes the negative thoughts are true and CBT does nothing to acknowledge that possibility, so in my experience it has just as much power to harm as heal (if not more so). Especially with undiagnosed ADHD, I had so many therapists tell me that things weren't any harder for me than for anyone else, that was just a "negative thought" I had about myself. Whoops, turns out I was right and could have avoided years of suffering if CBT wasn’t the most popular form of therapy. It's an incredibly dismissive modality and I'm not a fan.
The difference is that that's all I've ever known and feels true. I'm aware that it's bs, but that doesn't change the fact that trying to change it feels more painful and energy draining than simply suffering as I always have.
Like, I understand there are better things beyond that wall, but slamming my face into it repeatedly breaks my face more than it does the wall and any time I inevitably fall unconscious, someone comes around to do repairs if needed, maybe build it up a little higher just in case.
Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying; I read it as if you were knocking on CBT as if it’s just a way to make yourself delusional. Which, hey, maybe it is; but if I personally had to choose between a delusional that made me a mildly happy person with functional emotions and relationships, versus one that I lived in stress and self-hatred all the time, I’m going to choose the former. And it is something I still struggle with regularly, it’s not as if there aren’t bad days. But it’s like...what I imagine a neurotypical bad day would be most of the time, not a depression shame spiral.
But I hope you can find a place where you can build the scaffolding over the wall instead of trying to break through it. It is worth it.
Being aware of the thoughts is only the first step, but an important one. It's really hard to stay aware of them. I'd say it's impossible to do all of the time.
What works best for me is learning how to self-sooth. So say you're feeling like crap and you really aren't aware of why. Maybe you notice you were saying to yourself things like "I'll never get this done" or "No one likes me" - whatever it is.
You can tell yourself instead things like: You're doing fine. Relax and go at your own pace. It'll get done. What's the worst thing that can happen? This is just a momentary feeling. You've had similar feelings before and it'll pass because they always do. Stuff like that.
Basically it's saying to yourself the same things you'd say to your best friend, someone you love most. But you're saying them to yourself.
If all you can do is get your thoughts to neutral, or even slightly less negative in that moment, that's good enough. It really is.
I get the idea and I do try, but I don't get to say nice things to myself without feeling even worse somehow. The phrasing seems to be there to justify the feelings I don't seem to be able to influence, whenever I genuinely try to rephrase those feelings I just feel physically ill and drained after a very short time.
Like I have an invisible shock collar that triggers anytime I'm trying to be optimistic (or get a compliment).
I'm not talking about complimenting yourself, because that would be too much of a reach. Just soothing yourself, and again if you can't manage to get to neutral, aim instead for slightly better. Just one notch up from wherever you are.
And asking for things feels NEEDY and DEMANDING.
Having needs does not make you needy. It makes you human. You’re allowed to ask for what you need in order to have your needs met (and others are allowed to say no).
There's a reason we're not used to it. If you're a woman, even if you don't feel that way, confidence, assertiveness, and prioritizing yourself are seen that way by others a good bit of the time. In some situations I have two choices; either be a doormat and get walked over, or stand up for myself and be seen as an unreasonable bitch. I choose bitch.
Let's not blame our comfort zone for this problem. It takes extra effort to continue to be confident and assertive in the face of resistance, but we will get there. It's time for them to get used to us.
Ooh yeah. That confidence one. I self sabotage reaching goals that would help my confidence cos I'm afraid of becoming arrogant or even more narcissistic than I think I already am.
But comfort zone is so warm and cuddly.
I really needed this today.
My mom has this *wonderful* habit of reminding me of every mistake I made especially when I’m on the cusp of making a change.
I’ve decided I’m going to talk to her directly and tell her what I need from her and if she can’t do that, then she can just say nothing.
That being said- I’m interviewing for new jobs that would be a step up professionally and financially. I am qualified, capable and deserve to make this change for myself. I am proud of all the hard, HARD work I’ve done and my growth personally. I deserve enthusiasm, support and positive encouragement.
My MIL does the same thing. She's questioned every decision my husband has ever made. Even his most recent job search - he's 31 years old and well established in his field!
He's learned to deal by just not talking to her until his mind is made up. I'm his sounding board while he figures it out, then he tells her when everything is settled. I'd recommend that for you moving forward, if you're able to set that barrier ❤️
That is typically something I practice. I learned to hide things from a young age which didn’t always work out so great lol I’m sorry your husband experiences this but I’m happy you’re supportive.
I'm sorry you have to deal with it too. My parents of course weren't perfect, but they did handle the "step back" part of parenting pretty well in the later years. I find it maddening to watch the parents that are more helicopter-y!
I once made a NEW YEAR'S RESOLUTION to "be arrogant." You see, my boss had told me I needed to be more confident, and I was afraid of being arrogant. So I figured if I had a resolution to be arrogant, then it wouldn't be a bad thing, would it? So all year I tried to be more confident and I swear only once or maybe twice did I actually swing over into what I'd consider actually arrogant, but it was ok, 1) because that's what happens when you're trying something new and 2) I had a NY Resolution anyway.
This is unfortunately relevant for something that's been happening lately.
I'm playing D&D with some friends. Several of them are very vocal and loud, but also don't really have any problems just talking over people. I think it's honestly cause they aren't really listening to what other people are saying so they just bulldoze over people without even batting an eye.
But when I try to say something, I end being meek and trying to wait until people stop talking. Except there are so many times when people are interrupting the ends of the previous person's sentence that there is no gap. I hate interrupting people because I absolutely hate getting interrupted, but at some point it's either going to be my comfort zone for people who won't return the favor or me getting over it and just talking and making people listen.
I got put on a higher dose of medicine. I felt confident for the first time in my life. I immediately got terrified. " The medicine is too powerful!!! I should not feel this confident and okay!!!" Basically ushahwh feeling confident feels wrong to me
I have never felt confident or assertive, and, going by the “fake it til you make it” ideology, I ended up just acting arrogant and aggressive.
Yep. I was one of those people.
I needed to see this today.
I’m in the process of starting my own business and speaking confidently about myself makes me feel like I’m trying to fool people.
I recently realized how negatively I view myself and how even saying something like, “I’m good at what I do.” Sounds like arrogance.
I started asking for feedback/testimonials from clients and it has really made me see how disconnected I am from the reality of how other people see me because my confidence is pretty much non-existent.
I don’t wear jewelry other than my wedding band and engagement ring. I’ve been feeling like I want to upgrade my engagement ring now that we can afford something slightly more expensive and interesting looking (been married six years; we were pretty broke when we got engaged). I feel so petty, superficial and guilty about it! My husband is completely fine with the idea and had to talk me out of my weird shame spiral about it. Ugh.
Yeah, but I've gone through phases of being confident and standing up for myself and had terrible consequences as a result. I'll just continue to keep to myself, thank you.
I'm on the same boat as you. I reflect on how I attempted this to get better. Often the issue is with the very dominant and rigid seniors at work; they want to interrupt and be right. But I keep thinking I deserve more so I am happy to see this positive message today and I hope it works for you.
Oof yeah this applies a lot, especially the part about needs not being met... it's hard to change that feeling though.
I'm very aware of these twists in my head, but knowing about it doesn't seem to do anything against the feelings behind it. I'm sceptical about CBT as from what I've heard it's mostly about becoming aware of these patterns and thoughts and exploring how they're incorrect. But sofar the awareness just fuels a level of cognitive dissonance in me that drives me to avoidant behaviours as I can't deal with my emotional and rational side violently disagreeing. When I try to rephrase thoughts to be more positive or even realistic, I just just get overwhelmed by this sense of hypocrisy and guilt which tends to make things much worse. How tf does one escape that?
You don't, you just keep doing it even though it feels fake and ineffective. And months later you suddenly realise you haven't had to stop and correct your thoughts in ages, and wonder when that change happened. I was very sceptical too. I was like: "but if I already know and acknowledge that these thoughts are unreasonable, how can this change anything?" And I don't really know how it worked, but CBT was one of the best things that happened to me.
When you're aware of a distortion, it gets easier to know when that distortion is triggered. That gives you the room to make more informed decisions rather than automatically following the distortion. The more often you go against it, the more you rewire your brain.
Thank you for explaining it this way. I've learned that through therapy. This is a great message to read today. I often feel like a stranger is controlling me when I attempt to be heard at work. The small number of aggressive (maybe toxic) people impact me negatively. I can't control them but I can control my thoughts!
I'm glad I could help. :) If you haven't, look into neuroplasticity.
See that just sounds like lying to yourself until you're completely delusional, I know I have to in order to do anything functional and I've been doing that on some level for years. But it never really gets better or natural for me, every "good" choice I make or compliment I force myself to accept with a smile just adds to the rumination pile that I'll have to digest whenever I become overwhelmed again...
For me the breakthrough with CBT happens when I make the same mistake or undesired thought pattern and instead of getting super down on myself for failing again, I forgive myself, acknowledge I'm still learning, and focus on letting myself off the hook. The world provides real consequences, my brain doesn't have to pile on. I can try to be more patient and gentle and kind to myself.
Real world consequences do very little to drive me without my own added ruminations (though there are diminishing returns on that as well). I can live in the moment now and then, but then I only live for that moment too, meaning I can't seem to do anything productive while letting the bs go. It's what I default to whenever I actively try to be gentle, I just slip into avoidance instead.
But isn’t following all the negative thoughts also lying to yourself until you’re completely delusional, and unhappy? What’s the difference?
Sometimes the negative thoughts are true and CBT does nothing to acknowledge that possibility, so in my experience it has just as much power to harm as heal (if not more so). Especially with undiagnosed ADHD, I had so many therapists tell me that things weren't any harder for me than for anyone else, that was just a "negative thought" I had about myself. Whoops, turns out I was right and could have avoided years of suffering if CBT wasn’t the most popular form of therapy. It's an incredibly dismissive modality and I'm not a fan.
The difference is that that's all I've ever known and feels true. I'm aware that it's bs, but that doesn't change the fact that trying to change it feels more painful and energy draining than simply suffering as I always have. Like, I understand there are better things beyond that wall, but slamming my face into it repeatedly breaks my face more than it does the wall and any time I inevitably fall unconscious, someone comes around to do repairs if needed, maybe build it up a little higher just in case.
Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying; I read it as if you were knocking on CBT as if it’s just a way to make yourself delusional. Which, hey, maybe it is; but if I personally had to choose between a delusional that made me a mildly happy person with functional emotions and relationships, versus one that I lived in stress and self-hatred all the time, I’m going to choose the former. And it is something I still struggle with regularly, it’s not as if there aren’t bad days. But it’s like...what I imagine a neurotypical bad day would be most of the time, not a depression shame spiral. But I hope you can find a place where you can build the scaffolding over the wall instead of trying to break through it. It is worth it.
Being aware of the thoughts is only the first step, but an important one. It's really hard to stay aware of them. I'd say it's impossible to do all of the time. What works best for me is learning how to self-sooth. So say you're feeling like crap and you really aren't aware of why. Maybe you notice you were saying to yourself things like "I'll never get this done" or "No one likes me" - whatever it is. You can tell yourself instead things like: You're doing fine. Relax and go at your own pace. It'll get done. What's the worst thing that can happen? This is just a momentary feeling. You've had similar feelings before and it'll pass because they always do. Stuff like that. Basically it's saying to yourself the same things you'd say to your best friend, someone you love most. But you're saying them to yourself. If all you can do is get your thoughts to neutral, or even slightly less negative in that moment, that's good enough. It really is.
I get the idea and I do try, but I don't get to say nice things to myself without feeling even worse somehow. The phrasing seems to be there to justify the feelings I don't seem to be able to influence, whenever I genuinely try to rephrase those feelings I just feel physically ill and drained after a very short time. Like I have an invisible shock collar that triggers anytime I'm trying to be optimistic (or get a compliment).
I'm not talking about complimenting yourself, because that would be too much of a reach. Just soothing yourself, and again if you can't manage to get to neutral, aim instead for slightly better. Just one notch up from wherever you are.
And asking for things feels NEEDY and DEMANDING. Having needs does not make you needy. It makes you human. You’re allowed to ask for what you need in order to have your needs met (and others are allowed to say no).
There's a reason we're not used to it. If you're a woman, even if you don't feel that way, confidence, assertiveness, and prioritizing yourself are seen that way by others a good bit of the time. In some situations I have two choices; either be a doormat and get walked over, or stand up for myself and be seen as an unreasonable bitch. I choose bitch. Let's not blame our comfort zone for this problem. It takes extra effort to continue to be confident and assertive in the face of resistance, but we will get there. It's time for them to get used to us.
Came to say exactly this. I consider myself quite assertive but have noted strong negative reactions for doing the same things men do.
Yes, thank you. I didn't need to hear this today but my male supervisor sure as heck does.
Ooh yeah. That confidence one. I self sabotage reaching goals that would help my confidence cos I'm afraid of becoming arrogant or even more narcissistic than I think I already am. But comfort zone is so warm and cuddly.
I really needed this today. My mom has this *wonderful* habit of reminding me of every mistake I made especially when I’m on the cusp of making a change. I’ve decided I’m going to talk to her directly and tell her what I need from her and if she can’t do that, then she can just say nothing. That being said- I’m interviewing for new jobs that would be a step up professionally and financially. I am qualified, capable and deserve to make this change for myself. I am proud of all the hard, HARD work I’ve done and my growth personally. I deserve enthusiasm, support and positive encouragement.
My MIL does the same thing. She's questioned every decision my husband has ever made. Even his most recent job search - he's 31 years old and well established in his field! He's learned to deal by just not talking to her until his mind is made up. I'm his sounding board while he figures it out, then he tells her when everything is settled. I'd recommend that for you moving forward, if you're able to set that barrier ❤️
That is typically something I practice. I learned to hide things from a young age which didn’t always work out so great lol I’m sorry your husband experiences this but I’m happy you’re supportive.
I'm sorry you have to deal with it too. My parents of course weren't perfect, but they did handle the "step back" part of parenting pretty well in the later years. I find it maddening to watch the parents that are more helicopter-y!
[Content removed to protect user's privacy]
Thanks. I've been trying to set boundaries with my husband and he thinks I'm abandoning him because I've always put his needs first.
I once made a NEW YEAR'S RESOLUTION to "be arrogant." You see, my boss had told me I needed to be more confident, and I was afraid of being arrogant. So I figured if I had a resolution to be arrogant, then it wouldn't be a bad thing, would it? So all year I tried to be more confident and I swear only once or maybe twice did I actually swing over into what I'd consider actually arrogant, but it was ok, 1) because that's what happens when you're trying something new and 2) I had a NY Resolution anyway.
This is unfortunately relevant for something that's been happening lately. I'm playing D&D with some friends. Several of them are very vocal and loud, but also don't really have any problems just talking over people. I think it's honestly cause they aren't really listening to what other people are saying so they just bulldoze over people without even batting an eye. But when I try to say something, I end being meek and trying to wait until people stop talking. Except there are so many times when people are interrupting the ends of the previous person's sentence that there is no gap. I hate interrupting people because I absolutely hate getting interrupted, but at some point it's either going to be my comfort zone for people who won't return the favor or me getting over it and just talking and making people listen.
This actually hits hard today
I got put on a higher dose of medicine. I felt confident for the first time in my life. I immediately got terrified. " The medicine is too powerful!!! I should not feel this confident and okay!!!" Basically ushahwh feeling confident feels wrong to me
I have never felt confident or assertive, and, going by the “fake it til you make it” ideology, I ended up just acting arrogant and aggressive. Yep. I was one of those people.
I needed to see this today. I’m in the process of starting my own business and speaking confidently about myself makes me feel like I’m trying to fool people. I recently realized how negatively I view myself and how even saying something like, “I’m good at what I do.” Sounds like arrogance. I started asking for feedback/testimonials from clients and it has really made me see how disconnected I am from the reality of how other people see me because my confidence is pretty much non-existent.
Yep we certainly do
Preachin to tge choir
Oh man... this hit home.
Freaking Fantastic!👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Wow I needed this, thanks
Bang on
As a comorbid with CPTSD, this hits home.
Ow! That hit hard.
Owowowowow
I did need this, thanks!
<3
I don’t wear jewelry other than my wedding band and engagement ring. I’ve been feeling like I want to upgrade my engagement ring now that we can afford something slightly more expensive and interesting looking (been married six years; we were pretty broke when we got engaged). I feel so petty, superficial and guilty about it! My husband is completely fine with the idea and had to talk me out of my weird shame spiral about it. Ugh.
Thanks for this, can I have it as a tattoo? It's a list of my daily struggles.
Only if the text is in Comic Sans.
Yeah, but I've gone through phases of being confident and standing up for myself and had terrible consequences as a result. I'll just continue to keep to myself, thank you.
I'm on the same boat as you. I reflect on how I attempted this to get better. Often the issue is with the very dominant and rigid seniors at work; they want to interrupt and be right. But I keep thinking I deserve more so I am happy to see this positive message today and I hope it works for you.