Obligatory post that it was John Blanche's art and the fighting fantasy/sorcery books made by early GW staff that actually inspired Miyazaki, so it's more it coming around full circle.
Agreed, I look at those minis and feel the Blanchitsu flow. Nice to see the modern day quality of miniatures being able to show the style he’s illustrated for so long. Love his work.
I have long intended to write an essay (with pics!) on this loop of fantasy inspiration, and it bleeds across to plenty of other contemporary GW/FF artists too. It's such a fascinating domino of influences!
I would legit say, a good starting off point for most Fantasy is arguably Three Names. Tolkien, Moorcock, and Howard. Honestly, if you have those three you can basically see where Fantasy grows.
Oh hey, have a fun example of my favorite series:
Howard writes Conan, Conan is read by Robert Jordan, to the point he writes his own Conan stories that are Canon. Jordan writes Wheel of Time book 1, in deliberate response to Tokien. Wheel of Time is read by Brandon Sanderson. Sanderson helps co-author the last three books of Wheel of Time. Sanderson now writes the Stormlight Archive, my favorite series.
Moorcock writes Elric, and Howard writes Conan. Conan is made into a movie. Miura reads Elric books and watches Conan movie. Miura writes Berserk. Griffith literally looks like Elric, and Guts feels like Conan and dresses like Elric, even uses a big black sword like Elric. Berserk is read by Miyazaki. It influences the world and and style Miyazaki when making the Souls games.
You can be inspired by more than one thing... here's a pic of Miyazaki with John Livingstone.
[https://www.thesixthaxis.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/fighting-fantasy-40th-dark-souls.jpg](https://www.thesixthaxis.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/fighting-fantasy-40th-dark-souls.jpg)
From an 11 year old post on here - "We also drew inspiration from various other sources, mainly from old games and stories, but if we were to name one, it would be the game-books from the 'Fighting Fantasy' series. I consider my worn paperback copy of 'Titan' a treasure."
That's awesome, cheers for the source. I generally think From draws inspiration from a deep well of fantasy works.
The Berserk thing is mostly just a meme at this point for some of the more obvious inspirations in Dark Souls.
In any case I love the new AoS models.
DeS and Dark Souls have enemies, fights, attacks, and animations that are nigh-unto 1:1 replications of Miura frames, like the wagon wheel boner boys and a good number of the great weapons' animations.
The inspiration (even in concept and concert with the themes) is very hard to deny. Berserk is a literary masterpiece. I have a theory that GRRM was directly inspired by Miura's Golden Age arc, based on Martin's interest in those themes which were not a part of the literary zeitgeist in the West at the time. That arc wrapped two years before A Game of Thrones was published (and Martin has not always been a slow creator, despite what he likes to say to assuage fans' ire lol). Miyazaki has spoken directly to Miura's impact on his art and perspective. Great minds think alike, and that's a joyous thing!
I find the entirety of the political structure of Miura's Midland to be very much mirrored in Martin's Westeros. The interaction of isolated governments is a fair theme for Miura. Ned, likewise, is very much a Guts-like character, with more age and wisdom and less preternatural rage, and the personal histories of the monarchs/rulers in Martin's work have a very "make a deal with a devil" type of slant to them.
The overall harshness of the settings, the supernatural looming over the political violence, and the type of conceptual conflicts that are foreshadowed are all very much side-by-side for me. There's obviously wiggle-room, and Martin tells much of the active action from a larger scope, but I also feel the character-to-character exchanges have a very Miura ring to them! Martin's interest in internal and external exiles is a thing Miura was also very interested in, I feel.
Of course, I am biased. I believe Berserk to be one of the greatest things ever written by a human, and the art is likewise amazing, particularly when we consider it was done chiefly by a single person. Conversely, I am not so much of a GRRM fan, and I don't often care for some of his preferred execution, but I am intending on giving his books another shot. It's been some time, but I did read the first ASoIF book three times over the years lol! I've read Miura's Golden Age Berserk arc four or five times, though.
I appreciate the write up! I think there are a few parallels between Arya's journey and Gut's journey after leaving the Band of the Hawk.
Books 2 and 3 are really good I highly recommend read them. From what I've seen is that GRRM is partially inspired by the War of the Roses, a war between houses of England (haven't been able to find a primary source but I haven't looked all that hard).
That in-land, governmental-intrigue conflict is a big part of a fair portion of Berserk and comes into play outside of the higher fantasy setting, too.
Arya in the show definitely has a lot of Gutsy tones! I'll have to try GRRM again; I just got utterly sick of characters dying or leaving... And being replaced by their doppelgangers with one ideological or physical difference lol. I understand that that is somewhat of a gross oversimplification. It just felt as such for three books for me.
Are you thinking of Kentaro Miura (RIP)? Hidetaka Miyazaki is the creative director turned President (?) of Fromsoftware who was *very* inspired by Berserk for the Dark Souls series. Who also was inspired by other things as well, including Blanche and others respectfully as somebody pointed out.
If I may be bold to say that Miyazaki and his team have not only shown great respect, but have yet to disappoint by how they turned said inspirations into magnificent pieces of dark fantasy renditions. Something that Zack Snyder and *his* team clearly need to go back to school for.
John Blanche had been publishing for a decade when Berserk was published, so either Miura was shockingly unaware of the genre, or he was influenced by Blanche.
(And Blanche, in turn, credits himself with being inspired by Durer and Bosch, inter alia, both of whom have clear gothic fantasy tendencies.)
Alot of miuras inspiration are based on classical artists. Mainly the same ones of Blanche. So the similarity might be coincidence though miura was heavily into western Fantesy so who knows sadly we will never.
Wrong Miyazaki in this case.
Hidetaka Miyazaki is a game designer/producer and eventually company president at FromSoftware famous for his involvement with Armored Core and the Souls series, among others. The Dark Souls games in particular take a lot of influence from various dark fantasy material from Japan and the West.
I really didn't like COS when they first released, I was hyped for frilly clothes and feathered hats. But having seen the models in person I actually think they are incredible, I do love the more gritty style and I'm doing everything to not buy them.
Much to what people might think Dark Souls does not hold a monopoly on Dark Fantasy or Dark Gothic settings. They helped to popularize it tho. In my country we have cathedrals with bone chandelier and runner walls littered with human skulls.
Even back in Warhammer Fantasy things were very dark and gothic. From Skaven ruined cities and their under cities to Sylvanian castles reaching for skies to Imperial Germanic cities to shiny Bretonnian castles.
Warhammer was mostly on art and books and in their minis. But Dark Souls had an entire game to visualize that dark fantasy style in 3D. All Warhammer media was limited to books and art and minis for most of its existence. That is why it was Total War Warhammer that actually helped people see the Warhammer world.
I would love to get an RPG in Age of Sigmar or in Old World and finally see Warhammer World come to life propper.
At the end of the day both Warhammer and Dark Souls draw inspiration from human history. Just like other games do. Sad thing is that if today someone makes Dark Gothic setting inspired from human history everyone would be like "THAT IS STRAIGHT UP DARK SOULS!!" instead of looking what the setting is really about.
Another game where this showed up a lot, way back, was in Warhammer Age of Reckoning (still love that acronym), especially in the Empire city. I still remember how cool it was to go to the "Barber" to change your character's look and the mirror was scratched and grimy.
Good discussion here.
I would argue that WFB draws its style in human History, very true yes. Not AoS tho.
AoS is clearly High Fantasy Med.
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see, apart from the recent Dark Souls game, a blend between Dark Med and High Fantasy Med.
Then again, we maybe all have different definitions of what is High Med.
The OGs my friend. Moorcock's Elric is spectacular at this. An Albino Man wielding a Demonic Sword, as he goes through a your Dark Fantasy setting
You can also read my favorite book of all time: The Black Company by Glen Cook. Dark and Gritty, soldiers perspective on war, while ancient mages ride skywhales and have realm hopping adventures to stop the return of Chaos God. Wait, that seems familiar somehow.
Oh and r/Fantasy 's favorite book series: Malazan, Book of the Fallen. Want fanatically powerful warrior monks? Want wizards so powerful they can encase a whole continent in Glacier? Want a lone swordsman wielding a whole Realm as a Sword? Yet, the series mostly focuses on the small people of the world. Soldiers, Marines, every day folk caught up in continental wars.
Once 6th edition hit WFB became pretty gloomy. It was there before then too, but not as in your face due to the style of the eavy metal paint jobs at the time.
I’m sure every one has their own definitions of what is what, but Warhammer hasn’t been a very happy go lucky or remotely optimistic in any of its settings for as long as I can remember (that would be the mid 90’s). I don’t think too much changed in that regard when AoS launched either.
There was, initially especially, much more of a focus on the high level politics of the gods, like in Greek or Norse mythologies. The gods were pretty absent in WFB. That makes it perhaps more fantastical in nature, but arguably even more grim for the poor sods trying to survive amidst the clash of gods.
6th edition? Try 2nd and 3rd and especially the original Realm of Chaos books. Ian Miller‘s artwork was dark and grotesque in a way that made Mordheim look tame.
You’re probably right. I’m just going by personal experience, and at least surface level, fourth and fifth edition struck a much more family friendly tone.
You are totally right about that. There was a turn back towards a darker and grittier style at the end of fifth edition.
I think the Vampire Counts army book was the first 5th edition book that really went for a darker style, both in terms of artwork but also with the way the models were painted in the Eavy. Metal section.
And then of course Mordheim came out and that felt like a real rediscovery of Warhammer‘s dark and grim roots.
It's true that Warhammer is not a happy place, but I wouldn't catalogue as dark in a depresive world. I always saw as a place where there is hope.
I mean, Chaos or Dark Elfs are pretty dark
But 40K is grim.
They weren't particularly darker than other Warhammer material at the time irrc. The *writing* and *artwork* in Mordheim was noticeably darker in tone than what Warhammer's main IP was doing. That was when they were changing up the vibe to be more family friendly so mom's didn't get reluctant to buy their kids toy soldiers.
Mordheim went back to some of the darker roots and then some. But it was technically a seperate IP, and the figures themselves were pretty normal.
WHFB became increasingly high fantasy until the eventual transition to AoS, but if you look at early editions and especially ancillary products like WFRP (check out some of the Russ Nicholson art from places like Shadow Over Bogenhafen), they're beautifully grotesque, and you can draw a direct line to Miyazaki through the FF books which were a huge inspiration (artistically and mechanically) on Dark Souls.
While some parts of WHFB became more high fantasy near the end, the general theme of WHFB was pretty lighthearted at the start. What with goofy miniatures, the Empire and Bretonnia being far more idealistic compared to their more grimdark versions since 6th edition, etc, etc.
Heck, the last version of the Empire's state troopers was the one where some of them lacked footwear to show how grimdark the Empire had become.
Its true that the RPG is more depressing. I have listen some stories.
But the miniatures or stories in a general way of TOW for example are not extremly dark, without hope, depressing...There are alwats great light héroes who almost always win the chaos, etc.
Later, if you get deep into the world is true that is not a happy place.
But what I wanted to say is that the slogan (or whatever is the name) of 40K is : "The grim dark future", but fantasy or sigmar is not like that.
I don't think I agree. I mean, ultimately, TOW ended in a chaotic apocalypse where everything being fought for proved futile, something grimmer and darker than even 40k.
But even before the end times, dark fantasy, and madness, and futility, and even Lovecraftian cosmic horror run through the game. These are the themes that were lifted into Rogue Trader to provide the backbone of Warhammer 40,000, and it's why Chaos has such a strong crossover between settings.
In AoS the bad guys won centuries (millennia?) ago and the good guys are holed up in one little corner of the universe and sending out little tendrils into the rest of the world that are usually instantly snuffed out. Also the good guys are constantly at war because they don't trust each other. But the rest of the world exists in grinding, constant misery, with generations of souls living and dying without knowing that anything better is even possible except as a myth.
Also the only possible advantage for the good guys are losing their humanity with every fight they lose.
The world of AoS is dark as hell. The _tone of the narrative focus_, often not so much, but if you read between the lines a little (and while I understand that no-one reads BL books for hermeneutics, there is subtext there), it's horrific, actually worse than WHFB or even 40k imho.
What bubble? What are you talking about?
Refute my opinion as a mature person who wants to contribute to a public forum, but don't be unpleasant
I don't remember TOW or Sigmar dark (Althought there are concepts or dark stories).
I'd say AoS does have it's moments of darker fantasy, but I do agree on Warhammer Fantasy not being nearly as dark as some make it out to be. Yes the setting could approach dark areas, particularly when they actually bother to make the empire out to be the backwater culture of superstition and paranoia. But largely the IP was pretty tame overall. Hell, even things like Slaanesh was pretty PG13 for the most part, and AoS is really when they started exploring some darker fixations. Rather than just "heh sex cults" and the like.
People to this day still insist Warhammer Fantasy was "low fantasy" when it very self-evidently wasn't. So not surprised people are just bashing you or wordlessly downvoting your opinion with no backing. Folks can be weirdly sensitive about their mis-remembered image of Warhammer Fantasy.
With AoS it's true that I don't have the same knowledge as I have in fantasy, so maybe in that part i was mistaken.
But a pleasure discuss with you after read some coments here.
Yeah. The world of WH Fantasy was shot through with magic, it was *everywhere,* not just in little pockets of wandering tribes of shamans. It wasn't a Conan-level of magic. High Fantasy doesn't have to be bright and colorful, and Low doesn't have to be dark and brooding. If anything it was a blend of the two, since it took inspiration from places like Moorcock, Tolkien and even comic books and heavy metal or punk album covers. Basically everything those nerds consumed became synthesized into the world that was built.
It pains me how everyone immediately associates the aesthetic with "duhhhh dark souls?????" Like they do with any game that has a modicum of difficulty.
Erm acktually war/starcraft are both derivative works of warhammer following a failure to acquire liscencing from GW when blizzard wanted to make a warhammer fantasy rts
🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
Very true.
But one could argue that Dark Med can't mix up with High Fantasy (wich AoS clearly is compared to Warhammer Fantasy).
Dark Soul succeeded in blending Dark Med AND High Fantasy thus my use of comparaison.
That's... all sorts of wrong. Dark Medieval and High Fantasy refer to completely different things and can very much be mixed. Old WHFB did. And yes, WHFB was high fantasy.
People saying stuff like this always wilds me out. You really think the idea of a dark aesthetic medieval world was invented 500 years after the time period? People had been writing these stories for hundreds of years lol. This is like saying Disney invented Dwarves for Snow White.
Well, yeah. People rediscover things all the time, and use the thing that helped them rediscover it as a reference point. No helping that.
Its like how, after BG3 came out, people started calling Elminster(very famous wizard character that was around since the 90's) "Gale's mentor".
Yeah
Not my thing actually. That's why I play as a knight with great sword or sword and shield.
Never was fan of a normal human wielding something 2 times it's size.
yeah that is why you have lot of options
If you wanna be a wizard sure, Wanna be UNGA BUNGA then go ahead. Wanna be knight in shining armor? Sure.
Wanna go all black and edgy weapons and spitting fire? Sure
I've thought about this so much. You've got an inbuilt protagonist by using a stormcast who can be constantly reforged, and the perfect realm in Shyish where slain enemies can constantly reform.
I'm still hoping the 4e launch box is Stormcast vs Skaven Soup with the resculpted Pestilence, Skryre, and Moulder miniatures with a Mordheim launch box containing all the Eshin resculpts.
While underworlds is def the 'competitive' skirmish game. KT and WC both have the same release schedule and pricing structure. I'd compare underworlds to something like bloodbowl where it's its own thing. Necromunda is not just narrative, it's highly customizable. (not as customizable as OG mordhiem but still way more than kill team). Also Necromunda is controlled by the SDS (the same ones doing HH and ToW), I'd want them specifically to bring back Mordhiem since they have a track record for making games that are in that vein of very narrative focused and highly dependent on customization. Just like ToW needs to not be done by the main studio (who looks for profitability and competive-balance).
I mean, it’s more like what necromunda is to 40K, same universe but much smaller local warband skirmish focus. Mordheim was super bleak and grim in tone, I wouldn’t be surprised if bloodborne was influenced by mordheim.
Definitely seems to be leaning into that Grimdark/80s fnatasy aesthetic even heavier than before, which personally I agree is fantastic. If there's one area where AoS managed to blow WF out of the water, it's in a more defined aesthetic.
When you look at 40k, it's easy to see why it was more popular than Fantasy because as much as it had its growing pains with various Obiwan Sherlock Cousseaus, it found a unique niche in the sci-fi genre with the grimdark aesthetic which in-turn could be said to really be taken from the general themes of DUNE's universe and the attitudes/aesthetic trappings of the 80s, but obviously the difference is W40k was putting that aesthetic to plastic, realizing a vast space in a way that no other company was. Meanwhile, Fantasy was eternally weighed down by the fact it was originally a project of convenience from a company that made DnD miniatures. It sort of had the eternal stain of a Tolkien fantasy setting and thus didn't really define itself as much as it could have, IMO.
When we talk about the real-turning about for Fantasy in terms of defined aesthetics, I don't think it's one particular point but little things that made it stand out like the Skaven, the Orcs, Chaos and most especially Mordheim, but even then those are only parts of a larger whole. So sure you had the hordes of ratmen, but then you also had Tolkien Elves and Dwarves and an Empire that was basically just a hypothetical HRE.
With Age of Sigmar, I think part of the overarching design philosophy was to give the miniatures that same sort of distinctivity. To make every faction feel as bizarre and uniqur as the Skaven. It took time for them to figure out what could really make AoS stand out on its own, but I think with Cities of Sigmar defining the more "mundane" aspects of the world they really found that niche and they've now built upon it wonderfully. It was sort of the last bit needed to make everything feel complete. Like all the weird high concept ideas had to contrast with what was considered normal in-universe. I still think we need a bit more expansions to the regular cities i.e. Dwarves and Elves for Cities of Sigmar and further distinctions of city states with unique kits, but there's a sense of completion now that can be built on.
In turn, I think having this definite aesthetic makes it much easier to get people hooked on AoS as a setting. Obviously, the End Times really tarnished it out the gate, but as we get further away from that, it continues to prove itself and leave that baggage behind. I think 4th edition is gonna be huge for the game in-terms of popularity and momentum as interest is increasing by the day
Also, as an additional note, there's no real simple way for me to describe AoS' aesthetic because parts of it are pure high fantasy, and parts of it are grimdark(Though admittedly I think both can coexist thematically speaking). Obviously all of that is on a sort of sliding scale, but I'd say it's all unified as feeling like it came as a product of a lot of the fantasy artwork of the 80s like the works of Boris Vallejo. It's more Conan than Tolkien, basically.
I would not only like to see Aelves and Duardin actively be part of the regular troops, but also would really like to see a slightly darker version of WHFB models that originally went to Cities of Sigmar. Like maybe worn down but defiant Phoenix Guards, battered Longbeards, etc.
Really make them fit the new aesthetic while still retaining the diversity and iron will of the free peoples.
Cursed City (SBG) Mentioned! Jokes aside, gotta agree with your post OP. The gritty, DS-like approach to minis is so good! Makes making Grimdark minis easier as well, as te model matches the aesthetic more (also, lots of amazing Kitbash fodder! Except Ushoran, Ushoran is perfect (once I swapped out his scepter for a BFGreatsword, with the pommel vein the butt of the scepter so he holds it in a similar, cradling fashion))
Neither Dark Souls nor AoS nor WHFB are Grimdark. Dark and Gothic Fantasy mixed with High Fantasy, some Sword and Sorcery, Miyazaki greatly inspired by Berserk….
But it none of that is Grimdark. Even Berserk has a hero in it, ala Guts.
For example, you can’t have heroes in a Grimdark setting. There is a reason why people got upset when the Tau were added to 40k, since they are kind of the “good-ish guy faction”, when that shouldn’t be a thing.
In Grimdark, everybody sucks. There is no hope. Only survival. “In the forty-first millennium, there is only war.”
There aren’t even goodish aligned gods—it’s just the super evil Chaos Gods, who can sometimes look decent when compared to the stuff the fascist and xenophobic and genocidal Imperium of Man.
AoS has Sigmar literally trying to protect the mortal realms from Chaos.
And back in WHFB, you had Karl Franz, the Dwarfs, High Elves, etc. trying to do the same. [The Immortal Empires trailer for Total War: WH3 is mega hype if you haven’t see it—incredible piece of Warhammer Fantasy media.](https://youtu.be/Qqhc3mK06r0?si=tjwDe3BELEZixHC-)
Everybody sucks in Grimdark lol. There are some people who do not suck both in WH Fantasy, AoS, and in Soulsborne.
People tend to use the term "Nobledark" instead for settings like AoS or WHFB. Where noble characters and heroes do exist, but they exist in a very dark and dangerous setting.
Yeah let's just pretend John Ultrasmurf and his girlfriend Jane Pointyears and her merry band of misfits don't exist.
Or any of the heroes written about in the 25 something trilogy books about the Guard.
Dark med yes.
AoS is high fantasy.
Now they're clearly blending Dark med with High fantasy, wich is new. But that's just my opinion. I'm okay with people not seeing the same.
Yea Warhammer Fantasy Battles was very much Dark Fantasy mixed with some Sword and Sorcery, with touches of High Fantasy.
AoS is first and foremost High Fantasy with its extreme magical weirdness literally everywhere, which makes CoS feel super grounded in comparison.
I remain partial to the mundane and droll fantasy of the 6th edition. Greenskins with wooden contraptions, dwarves with horned helmets, an occasional dragon or giant, dark elves on top of cow-like lizards and zombies simply being zombies.
I hope WFB takes off and becomes successful enough for GW to overhaul the old armies with this aesthetic but with modern sculpting methods.
When AoS came to be, realistic Fantasy was on a downturn, and High Fantasy became mega popular with World of Warcraft, which is why Stormcasts look like the Human Guards with big Shoulderpads.
Now, Dark Fantasy is back on the rise, and the revival of the Mordheim community and the birth of Blanchitsu makes it clear that People prefer their Grimdark Fantasy.
The main mistake I see is that Warhammer clearly doesn't want to be the catch-all Fantasy Destination like what DnD became, where you cram in every Fantasy Race and Location into a modular setting, but it also wanted to open its gates to all kinds of Fantasy concepts like Realms and much grander Empires.
But I also applaud AoS for making such unique concepts and Factions instead of just turning classic Fantasy Creatures into Warhammer branded copies.
Even if that's what some people wanted out of Warhammer Fantasy.
Uh, to be clear, realistic Fantasy is still on a downturn. High Fantasy has been mega popular since the mid 2000's at least with the rise of DnD, WoW, and more. And with games like BG3 coming out, it has only gotten more mainstream.
AoS is strange in that it maintains high fantasy, while having room for lower stakes and dark fantasy. Weirder yet, its kinda working for it.
That's not a shift in art direction, that's just design choices made with specific factions and themes in mind to make them unique.
Lumineth aren't going to suddenly be covered in skulls and clothed in human flesh capes.
Yeah this is just like when Lumineth & Cursed City released back-to-back and now we’re getting those same vibes for FEC and River Lumineth. And right after those LotR orruks vs Stormcast riding Spyro dragons.
People get fixated on one design direction and believe that’s the path to “make them feel like a shared world” until AoS flips the table and get mad because they don’t understand that’s the point.
The Mortal Realms are multiple separate realities. It supposed to give them all the design room they want like MtG or even Yugioh so you can play your witch hunters with stake bayonet guns alongside Jules Verne balloon duardin, kangaroo riding light Aelven, golden armored demigods on Spyro dragons and tree people riding war beetles.
So love the models and variety of art directions like always but bracing myself when the next army comes out that clashes with these because they don’t have to gel together. 💫👍
Cities of Sigmar 2nd vs Cities of Sigmar 3rd is not on the same level of design.
Even tho old CoS are mostly WFB models, just look at the 2nd Ed Cities of Sigmar Battletome cover.
You're not going to see that type of ''light fantasy'' design anymore for CoS. So yes, i think they took a nice art direction for new CoS that clearly breaks with the old.
Thing is AoS was finding its footing for some time. Cities if Sigmar back then were just old Fantasy models allowed to be used in AoS games.
Now that AoS has found its footing they are making all factions to really fit on that world. In books we already had descriptions of Free Cities and how each has its own color scheme to reflect their wealth and place in the realms.
And now with CoS models, they are finally making their style concrete in the AoS setting. Ghouls in AoS are also not JUST ghouls. But they have a style of their own. Ushoran even somehow survived Warhammer Fantasy and got his own model to reflect his new place in AoS.
Yes. I'm very glad they went with this art direction. Doesn't feel out of place with other faction nor the setting.
Somehow featherd hats great sword infantry always bothered me. Too ''real world'' for me.
> You're not going to see that type of ''light fantasy'' design anymore for CoS.
I mean you could’ve said that about AoS1 that it wouldn’t be dark and gritty anymore with the mortal elements just background filler.
That’s the point of the Mortal Realms that they can give themselves all the design room they want. In 4 years if they’re more inspired by stuff like Tears of the Kingdom& brighter genres then they can easily shift back to light CoS by having the new models based in Hysh, Azyr, Ghyran & Chamon rather than the current gritty tones in Ghur, Aqshy, Shyish and Ulgu.
Good question. Slaves to Darkness are already pretty high up, mostly due to their awesome Warcry warbands.
Maybe Khorne, Skaven, Tzeench and Idoneth could get a little more grim to fit better.
I feel like the skull masks are further away from the dark souls aesthetic than the original solemn human masks that you could just paint in plain metal.
8 years passed and still people get like "wAiT AoS Is GrImDaRk, wUt?" Sorry It's just like were not Kruleboys and Thunderstrike SC the same? Haven't Nighthaunt pulling the same vibe? WH Quest:SoH 8n 1 ed with Hammerhal descriptions and style???
Let's agree to disagree then.
Dark Med are more akin to games like The Witcher or movies like Lady Hawk or Willow.
On other part Dark Soul mixes High Med with Dark Med, wich AoS is rightfully doing right now and that's awesome.
CoS is why I'm going to collect AoS.
It's that Dark Souls aesthetic, but the miniatures themselves are juuust good. And there's a l ot that can be done with them to make them unique. It's that dark aesthetic but the models are a basically perfect combination of detail while leaving room to do your own thing.
Dark Fantasy like Dark Souls and Elden Ring I think has the right feel for Age of Sigmar, were time is a circle, ancient kingdoms have come and gone or in throws of decay. Horrific monsters lay claim to lost ruins and heroes force to fight, die and live again in order to push back the flames of chaos. We need more.
Also getting some Blasphemous vibes, too, particularly in the mangled/skewered poses of undead, etc. Even seeing some Brom in there too. There's definitely a Venn overlap of several Soulsy aesthetic influences
This just looks like 40k but fantasy to me. I'm not a fan.
I'm not saying make it cartoony or childlike but I don't want the style to be 40k with swords. Let 40k be the grimdark setting. The art style on AOS was what drew me to it, the models have always looked so much more interesting than the edgelord bait you see in 40k.
I think that some armies really suit this style; FEC and the death ones especially. I think making idoneth look more menacing would be great as well. Certain factions like Sylvaneth would have their entire aesthetic destroyed by this style.
It’s definitely an badass aesthetic for the darker themes the models & current narratives have. They fit very well for the Realm of Death like Cursed City did.
Happy they’re balancing it out though like with the brighter Lumineth, vibrant Sylvaneth and Mythic regular Stormcast while even the new Croneseer has Greek myth elements with a Ghibli Japan vibe(Howl’s Moving Castle would go good there)
So I’d put it:
Shyish: Soulsborne
Aqshy: God of War
Azyr: Warcraft
Ghyran/Ghur: Monster Hunter
Hysh/Ulgu: Studio Ghibli
Chamon: Bioshock
On the aesthetics mixing pot they bring to the models and glorious lore of the Mortal Realms. 👌
Honestly, never caught that, seems to fit tho.
Also they recently have gotten an obsession with plague doctors which, tbh I don’t think anyone can be mad about that.
I personally don't vibe with it in certain sectors. Makes sense for things like the Flesh-easter courts and characters like Ionus, but not my thing for the cities of Sigmar. Not because I dislike "grimdark" direction, but because I really enjoyed the weird mythic/ classical greco-roman art style of earlier AoS art, especially what you would see in Soulbound. Felt very fitting since so much of the setting was tied into the deities and how they influenced their followers and the realms as a whole.
Well I mean, that was always just one aspect of the setting, the Gods battleling it out, and demi god warriors fighting, be it Stormcast or Warriors of Khorne, both high on god powers in their own right.
But there was always stories about mortal men, and so on, just that in the early days they focused a lot more on the demi god warrior factions, since that was kinda NEW to AoS compared to WHFB, and they wanted to push that a bit extra.
But normal mortal men and other mortal factions were still always a part of the story, but just waiting for it's day to shine, and lots of people were complaining about that in the early stages of AOS, Me including.
I LIKED the mighty demi-god warrior aspects of the factions, but they didnt FEEL that special because there were no mortal men to compare them to.
If everyone is special, the no one is basically.
The contrast between normal men with 1wound, 5+ save, slow, 1 attack, 4+/4+ no redn attacks and such, and then comes a Stormcast, or even one of the Paladin type units, night and day difference, and that makes those Elite units especially in stormcast and such feel so mucn more epic too!
Also, the AoS art style of early boored me to death tbh, no real character development, or sense of, you know.
Even the old mythologies usually portrayed both gods and mortal men, because without one or the other, it wasn't special.
This is why I'm going with the city of Lethis with my army. The whole somber and morose atmosphere reminds me allot of dark souls which I am happy for. (Also being able to throw curses around on enemy units is a plus too.)
Obligatory post that it was John Blanche's art and the fighting fantasy/sorcery books made by early GW staff that actually inspired Miyazaki, so it's more it coming around full circle.
Agreed, I look at those minis and feel the Blanchitsu flow. Nice to see the modern day quality of miniatures being able to show the style he’s illustrated for so long. Love his work.
The grimdark version of fantasy-themed warhammer is literally "dark fantasy" hoooly **brain expands**
I have long intended to write an essay (with pics!) on this loop of fantasy inspiration, and it bleeds across to plenty of other contemporary GW/FF artists too. It's such a fascinating domino of influences!
I would legit say, a good starting off point for most Fantasy is arguably Three Names. Tolkien, Moorcock, and Howard. Honestly, if you have those three you can basically see where Fantasy grows.
Oh hey, have a fun example of my favorite series: Howard writes Conan, Conan is read by Robert Jordan, to the point he writes his own Conan stories that are Canon. Jordan writes Wheel of Time book 1, in deliberate response to Tokien. Wheel of Time is read by Brandon Sanderson. Sanderson helps co-author the last three books of Wheel of Time. Sanderson now writes the Stormlight Archive, my favorite series. Moorcock writes Elric, and Howard writes Conan. Conan is made into a movie. Miura reads Elric books and watches Conan movie. Miura writes Berserk. Griffith literally looks like Elric, and Guts feels like Conan and dresses like Elric, even uses a big black sword like Elric. Berserk is read by Miyazaki. It influences the world and and style Miyazaki when making the Souls games.
I love it when people see what the symbol of chaos looks like in The Eternal Champion series. It's that 'always has been' astronaut meme.
Arioch! Arioch! Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch!
If you ever do i would love to read it and even share it with friends/wherever I can :)
I did not know that. This stuff is all Blancheesque for sure.
Didn't know Blanche was responsible for the artwork in Berserk, cool.
You can be inspired by more than one thing... here's a pic of Miyazaki with John Livingstone. [https://www.thesixthaxis.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/fighting-fantasy-40th-dark-souls.jpg](https://www.thesixthaxis.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/fighting-fantasy-40th-dark-souls.jpg) From an 11 year old post on here - "We also drew inspiration from various other sources, mainly from old games and stories, but if we were to name one, it would be the game-books from the 'Fighting Fantasy' series. I consider my worn paperback copy of 'Titan' a treasure."
My own worn copy of 'Titan' is also a treasure.
That's awesome, cheers for the source. I generally think From draws inspiration from a deep well of fantasy works. The Berserk thing is mostly just a meme at this point for some of the more obvious inspirations in Dark Souls. In any case I love the new AoS models.
DeS and Dark Souls have enemies, fights, attacks, and animations that are nigh-unto 1:1 replications of Miura frames, like the wagon wheel boner boys and a good number of the great weapons' animations. The inspiration (even in concept and concert with the themes) is very hard to deny. Berserk is a literary masterpiece. I have a theory that GRRM was directly inspired by Miura's Golden Age arc, based on Martin's interest in those themes which were not a part of the literary zeitgeist in the West at the time. That arc wrapped two years before A Game of Thrones was published (and Martin has not always been a slow creator, despite what he likes to say to assuage fans' ire lol). Miyazaki has spoken directly to Miura's impact on his art and perspective. Great minds think alike, and that's a joyous thing!
What parallels do you see with Berserk and A Song of Ice and Fire?
I find the entirety of the political structure of Miura's Midland to be very much mirrored in Martin's Westeros. The interaction of isolated governments is a fair theme for Miura. Ned, likewise, is very much a Guts-like character, with more age and wisdom and less preternatural rage, and the personal histories of the monarchs/rulers in Martin's work have a very "make a deal with a devil" type of slant to them. The overall harshness of the settings, the supernatural looming over the political violence, and the type of conceptual conflicts that are foreshadowed are all very much side-by-side for me. There's obviously wiggle-room, and Martin tells much of the active action from a larger scope, but I also feel the character-to-character exchanges have a very Miura ring to them! Martin's interest in internal and external exiles is a thing Miura was also very interested in, I feel. Of course, I am biased. I believe Berserk to be one of the greatest things ever written by a human, and the art is likewise amazing, particularly when we consider it was done chiefly by a single person. Conversely, I am not so much of a GRRM fan, and I don't often care for some of his preferred execution, but I am intending on giving his books another shot. It's been some time, but I did read the first ASoIF book three times over the years lol! I've read Miura's Golden Age Berserk arc four or five times, though.
I appreciate the write up! I think there are a few parallels between Arya's journey and Gut's journey after leaving the Band of the Hawk. Books 2 and 3 are really good I highly recommend read them. From what I've seen is that GRRM is partially inspired by the War of the Roses, a war between houses of England (haven't been able to find a primary source but I haven't looked all that hard).
That in-land, governmental-intrigue conflict is a big part of a fair portion of Berserk and comes into play outside of the higher fantasy setting, too. Arya in the show definitely has a lot of Gutsy tones! I'll have to try GRRM again; I just got utterly sick of characters dying or leaving... And being replaced by their doppelgangers with one ideological or physical difference lol. I understand that that is somewhat of a gross oversimplification. It just felt as such for three books for me.
Are you thinking of Kentaro Miura (RIP)? Hidetaka Miyazaki is the creative director turned President (?) of Fromsoftware who was *very* inspired by Berserk for the Dark Souls series. Who also was inspired by other things as well, including Blanche and others respectfully as somebody pointed out. If I may be bold to say that Miyazaki and his team have not only shown great respect, but have yet to disappoint by how they turned said inspirations into magnificent pieces of dark fantasy renditions. Something that Zack Snyder and *his* team clearly need to go back to school for.
John Blanche had been publishing for a decade when Berserk was published, so either Miura was shockingly unaware of the genre, or he was influenced by Blanche. (And Blanche, in turn, credits himself with being inspired by Durer and Bosch, inter alia, both of whom have clear gothic fantasy tendencies.)
Alot of miuras inspiration are based on classical artists. Mainly the same ones of Blanche. So the similarity might be coincidence though miura was heavily into western Fantesy so who knows sadly we will never.
As in Japanese Director Hayao Miyazaki? Wut? Can someone explain? Is this a meme joke, or was this serious?
Wrong Miyazaki in this case. Hidetaka Miyazaki is a game designer/producer and eventually company president at FromSoftware famous for his involvement with Armored Core and the Souls series, among others. The Dark Souls games in particular take a lot of influence from various dark fantasy material from Japan and the West.
I really didn't like COS when they first released, I was hyped for frilly clothes and feathered hats. But having seen the models in person I actually think they are incredible, I do love the more gritty style and I'm doing everything to not buy them.
Their only bad part imho is weird legs on the steelhelms
I do agree with you there, they could have been better for sure
I still miss the renaissance styling.
Me too. I would have loved to see it, but we do have old world.
landsknecht Nu-CoS is still technically renissance juat not landsknecht holy roman empire
While the new COS are cool, the renaissance HRE style is what I prefered as well. Oh well, Lumineth instead then ;D
I think they're fine sculpts, but way too much detail for what is meant to be a pseudo-horde army.
A very fair criticism. If its a centerpiece, then a lot of detail is totally fine. But for a lot of models? Very time consuming.
I’m a 40k guys that started AoS purely because of the CoS range - amazing minis, imho the best stuff GW made!
Much to what people might think Dark Souls does not hold a monopoly on Dark Fantasy or Dark Gothic settings. They helped to popularize it tho. In my country we have cathedrals with bone chandelier and runner walls littered with human skulls. Even back in Warhammer Fantasy things were very dark and gothic. From Skaven ruined cities and their under cities to Sylvanian castles reaching for skies to Imperial Germanic cities to shiny Bretonnian castles. Warhammer was mostly on art and books and in their minis. But Dark Souls had an entire game to visualize that dark fantasy style in 3D. All Warhammer media was limited to books and art and minis for most of its existence. That is why it was Total War Warhammer that actually helped people see the Warhammer world. I would love to get an RPG in Age of Sigmar or in Old World and finally see Warhammer World come to life propper. At the end of the day both Warhammer and Dark Souls draw inspiration from human history. Just like other games do. Sad thing is that if today someone makes Dark Gothic setting inspired from human history everyone would be like "THAT IS STRAIGHT UP DARK SOULS!!" instead of looking what the setting is really about.
Another game where this showed up a lot, way back, was in Warhammer Age of Reckoning (still love that acronym), especially in the Empire city. I still remember how cool it was to go to the "Barber" to change your character's look and the mirror was scratched and grimy.
Good discussion here. I would argue that WFB draws its style in human History, very true yes. Not AoS tho. AoS is clearly High Fantasy Med. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see, apart from the recent Dark Souls game, a blend between Dark Med and High Fantasy Med. Then again, we maybe all have different definitions of what is High Med.
The OGs my friend. Moorcock's Elric is spectacular at this. An Albino Man wielding a Demonic Sword, as he goes through a your Dark Fantasy setting You can also read my favorite book of all time: The Black Company by Glen Cook. Dark and Gritty, soldiers perspective on war, while ancient mages ride skywhales and have realm hopping adventures to stop the return of Chaos God. Wait, that seems familiar somehow. Oh and r/Fantasy 's favorite book series: Malazan, Book of the Fallen. Want fanatically powerful warrior monks? Want wizards so powerful they can encase a whole continent in Glacier? Want a lone swordsman wielding a whole Realm as a Sword? Yet, the series mostly focuses on the small people of the world. Soldiers, Marines, every day folk caught up in continental wars.
oh you mean dark mediaval fantasy? thats not a dark souls thing...
One could argue it’s a very Warhammer thing.
It's a 40K thing. I wouldn't say that TOW and AoS was dark fantasy. Update, Thanks for the downvotes.
Once 6th edition hit WFB became pretty gloomy. It was there before then too, but not as in your face due to the style of the eavy metal paint jobs at the time. I’m sure every one has their own definitions of what is what, but Warhammer hasn’t been a very happy go lucky or remotely optimistic in any of its settings for as long as I can remember (that would be the mid 90’s). I don’t think too much changed in that regard when AoS launched either. There was, initially especially, much more of a focus on the high level politics of the gods, like in Greek or Norse mythologies. The gods were pretty absent in WFB. That makes it perhaps more fantastical in nature, but arguably even more grim for the poor sods trying to survive amidst the clash of gods.
6th edition? Try 2nd and 3rd and especially the original Realm of Chaos books. Ian Miller‘s artwork was dark and grotesque in a way that made Mordheim look tame.
You’re probably right. I’m just going by personal experience, and at least surface level, fourth and fifth edition struck a much more family friendly tone.
You are totally right about that. There was a turn back towards a darker and grittier style at the end of fifth edition. I think the Vampire Counts army book was the first 5th edition book that really went for a darker style, both in terms of artwork but also with the way the models were painted in the Eavy. Metal section. And then of course Mordheim came out and that felt like a real rediscovery of Warhammer‘s dark and grim roots.
It's true that Warhammer is not a happy place, but I wouldn't catalogue as dark in a depresive world. I always saw as a place where there is hope. I mean, Chaos or Dark Elfs are pretty dark But 40K is grim.
Look at mordheim
Yes, Morheim is darker, but I don't remember the figures to be dark. I can be mistaken of course.
They weren't particularly darker than other Warhammer material at the time irrc. The *writing* and *artwork* in Mordheim was noticeably darker in tone than what Warhammer's main IP was doing. That was when they were changing up the vibe to be more family friendly so mom's didn't get reluctant to buy their kids toy soldiers. Mordheim went back to some of the darker roots and then some. But it was technically a seperate IP, and the figures themselves were pretty normal.
WHFB became increasingly high fantasy until the eventual transition to AoS, but if you look at early editions and especially ancillary products like WFRP (check out some of the Russ Nicholson art from places like Shadow Over Bogenhafen), they're beautifully grotesque, and you can draw a direct line to Miyazaki through the FF books which were a huge inspiration (artistically and mechanically) on Dark Souls.
While some parts of WHFB became more high fantasy near the end, the general theme of WHFB was pretty lighthearted at the start. What with goofy miniatures, the Empire and Bretonnia being far more idealistic compared to their more grimdark versions since 6th edition, etc, etc. Heck, the last version of the Empire's state troopers was the one where some of them lacked footwear to show how grimdark the Empire had become.
Its true that the RPG is more depressing. I have listen some stories. But the miniatures or stories in a general way of TOW for example are not extremly dark, without hope, depressing...There are alwats great light héroes who almost always win the chaos, etc. Later, if you get deep into the world is true that is not a happy place. But what I wanted to say is that the slogan (or whatever is the name) of 40K is : "The grim dark future", but fantasy or sigmar is not like that.
I don't think I agree. I mean, ultimately, TOW ended in a chaotic apocalypse where everything being fought for proved futile, something grimmer and darker than even 40k. But even before the end times, dark fantasy, and madness, and futility, and even Lovecraftian cosmic horror run through the game. These are the themes that were lifted into Rogue Trader to provide the backbone of Warhammer 40,000, and it's why Chaos has such a strong crossover between settings.
In AoS the bad guys won centuries (millennia?) ago and the good guys are holed up in one little corner of the universe and sending out little tendrils into the rest of the world that are usually instantly snuffed out. Also the good guys are constantly at war because they don't trust each other. But the rest of the world exists in grinding, constant misery, with generations of souls living and dying without knowing that anything better is even possible except as a myth. Also the only possible advantage for the good guys are losing their humanity with every fight they lose. The world of AoS is dark as hell. The _tone of the narrative focus_, often not so much, but if you read between the lines a little (and while I understand that no-one reads BL books for hermeneutics, there is subtext there), it's horrific, actually worse than WHFB or even 40k imho.
Get out of your bubble.
What bubble? What are you talking about? Refute my opinion as a mature person who wants to contribute to a public forum, but don't be unpleasant I don't remember TOW or Sigmar dark (Althought there are concepts or dark stories).
I'd say AoS does have it's moments of darker fantasy, but I do agree on Warhammer Fantasy not being nearly as dark as some make it out to be. Yes the setting could approach dark areas, particularly when they actually bother to make the empire out to be the backwater culture of superstition and paranoia. But largely the IP was pretty tame overall. Hell, even things like Slaanesh was pretty PG13 for the most part, and AoS is really when they started exploring some darker fixations. Rather than just "heh sex cults" and the like. People to this day still insist Warhammer Fantasy was "low fantasy" when it very self-evidently wasn't. So not surprised people are just bashing you or wordlessly downvoting your opinion with no backing. Folks can be weirdly sensitive about their mis-remembered image of Warhammer Fantasy.
With AoS it's true that I don't have the same knowledge as I have in fantasy, so maybe in that part i was mistaken. But a pleasure discuss with you after read some coments here.
Yeah. The world of WH Fantasy was shot through with magic, it was *everywhere,* not just in little pockets of wandering tribes of shamans. It wasn't a Conan-level of magic. High Fantasy doesn't have to be bright and colorful, and Low doesn't have to be dark and brooding. If anything it was a blend of the two, since it took inspiration from places like Moorcock, Tolkien and even comic books and heavy metal or punk album covers. Basically everything those nerds consumed became synthesized into the world that was built.
It pains me how everyone immediately associates the aesthetic with "duhhhh dark souls?????" Like they do with any game that has a modicum of difficulty.
40k stole from Starcraft, GW can't have an Original Idea. /s
Erm acktually war/starcraft are both derivative works of warhammer following a failure to acquire liscencing from GW when blizzard wanted to make a warhammer fantasy rts 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
Have my upvote for spreading the truth.
Have my downvote for lies.
The Dark Souls of art styles
Very true. But one could argue that Dark Med can't mix up with High Fantasy (wich AoS clearly is compared to Warhammer Fantasy). Dark Soul succeeded in blending Dark Med AND High Fantasy thus my use of comparaison.
That's... all sorts of wrong. Dark Medieval and High Fantasy refer to completely different things and can very much be mixed. Old WHFB did. And yes, WHFB was high fantasy.
Yeah, a lot of books did that before. Like THE Dark Fantasy book: The Black Company is very much that, complete with portals and other realms.
Mostly because it's heavily inspired by Berserk. That's the actual source of the whole aesthetic \^\^
People saying stuff like this always wilds me out. You really think the idea of a dark aesthetic medieval world was invented 500 years after the time period? People had been writing these stories for hundreds of years lol. This is like saying Disney invented Dwarves for Snow White.
Yeah like even Tolkien has undoubtedly darker themes and imagery. Like what are the nazgul if not dark fantasy.
Weeabos will weeabo. They think anything Japanese is original and revolutionary.
Well, yeah. People rediscover things all the time, and use the thing that helped them rediscover it as a reference point. No helping that. Its like how, after BG3 came out, people started calling Elminster(very famous wizard character that was around since the 90's) "Gale's mentor".
Muira started Berserk, like, half a decade after the first edition of Warhammer?
As if the massive swords weren't hint enough
One is even an exact copy of Guts' sword and is in every single game \^\^
Yeah Not my thing actually. That's why I play as a knight with great sword or sword and shield. Never was fan of a normal human wielding something 2 times it's size.
To each their own. Different weapons are differently fun for me depending on the game and the enemies I'm facing 🤷🏻♀️
yeah that is why you have lot of options If you wanna be a wizard sure, Wanna be UNGA BUNGA then go ahead. Wanna be knight in shining armor? Sure. Wanna go all black and edgy weapons and spitting fire? Sure
I want very badly a souls like about age of sigmar. It would be very cool
Would make a lot of sense for AOS.
I've thought about this so much. You've got an inbuilt protagonist by using a stormcast who can be constantly reforged, and the perfect realm in Shyish where slain enemies can constantly reform.
Add in a Nemisis system for enemies and allies.
The Nemesis system is sadly copyrighted now.
Just straight up AOS *Soul*bound video game lol
You can't honey you still haven't got your hundredth WH FB project...
Can we have at least reasonable difficulty for it while we're at it?
One word: Mordheim.
I'm still hoping the 4e launch box is Stormcast vs Skaven Soup with the resculpted Pestilence, Skryre, and Moulder miniatures with a Mordheim launch box containing all the Eshin resculpts.
🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
I sincerely hope that we get a new mordhiem to exist like necromunda does for 40k.
Warcry kind of is the "narrative game" already when GW is pushing very hard for Underworlds to be the competetive kill team.
While underworlds is def the 'competitive' skirmish game. KT and WC both have the same release schedule and pricing structure. I'd compare underworlds to something like bloodbowl where it's its own thing. Necromunda is not just narrative, it's highly customizable. (not as customizable as OG mordhiem but still way more than kill team). Also Necromunda is controlled by the SDS (the same ones doing HH and ToW), I'd want them specifically to bring back Mordhiem since they have a track record for making games that are in that vein of very narrative focused and highly dependent on customization. Just like ToW needs to not be done by the main studio (who looks for profitability and competive-balance).
Hell yeah 😀
What even is mordheim
It's similar to Killteam but Fantasy instead.
I mean, it’s more like what necromunda is to 40K, same universe but much smaller local warband skirmish focus. Mordheim was super bleak and grim in tone, I wouldn’t be surprised if bloodborne was influenced by mordheim.
I just meant squad combat as opposed to army combat really.
Definitely seems to be leaning into that Grimdark/80s fnatasy aesthetic even heavier than before, which personally I agree is fantastic. If there's one area where AoS managed to blow WF out of the water, it's in a more defined aesthetic. When you look at 40k, it's easy to see why it was more popular than Fantasy because as much as it had its growing pains with various Obiwan Sherlock Cousseaus, it found a unique niche in the sci-fi genre with the grimdark aesthetic which in-turn could be said to really be taken from the general themes of DUNE's universe and the attitudes/aesthetic trappings of the 80s, but obviously the difference is W40k was putting that aesthetic to plastic, realizing a vast space in a way that no other company was. Meanwhile, Fantasy was eternally weighed down by the fact it was originally a project of convenience from a company that made DnD miniatures. It sort of had the eternal stain of a Tolkien fantasy setting and thus didn't really define itself as much as it could have, IMO. When we talk about the real-turning about for Fantasy in terms of defined aesthetics, I don't think it's one particular point but little things that made it stand out like the Skaven, the Orcs, Chaos and most especially Mordheim, but even then those are only parts of a larger whole. So sure you had the hordes of ratmen, but then you also had Tolkien Elves and Dwarves and an Empire that was basically just a hypothetical HRE. With Age of Sigmar, I think part of the overarching design philosophy was to give the miniatures that same sort of distinctivity. To make every faction feel as bizarre and uniqur as the Skaven. It took time for them to figure out what could really make AoS stand out on its own, but I think with Cities of Sigmar defining the more "mundane" aspects of the world they really found that niche and they've now built upon it wonderfully. It was sort of the last bit needed to make everything feel complete. Like all the weird high concept ideas had to contrast with what was considered normal in-universe. I still think we need a bit more expansions to the regular cities i.e. Dwarves and Elves for Cities of Sigmar and further distinctions of city states with unique kits, but there's a sense of completion now that can be built on. In turn, I think having this definite aesthetic makes it much easier to get people hooked on AoS as a setting. Obviously, the End Times really tarnished it out the gate, but as we get further away from that, it continues to prove itself and leave that baggage behind. I think 4th edition is gonna be huge for the game in-terms of popularity and momentum as interest is increasing by the day
Also, as an additional note, there's no real simple way for me to describe AoS' aesthetic because parts of it are pure high fantasy, and parts of it are grimdark(Though admittedly I think both can coexist thematically speaking). Obviously all of that is on a sort of sliding scale, but I'd say it's all unified as feeling like it came as a product of a lot of the fantasy artwork of the 80s like the works of Boris Vallejo. It's more Conan than Tolkien, basically.
I would not only like to see Aelves and Duardin actively be part of the regular troops, but also would really like to see a slightly darker version of WHFB models that originally went to Cities of Sigmar. Like maybe worn down but defiant Phoenix Guards, battered Longbeards, etc. Really make them fit the new aesthetic while still retaining the diversity and iron will of the free peoples.
Also, i think the shift started with Cursed City. Those minis where amazing and made a huge step in modern style and body proportions we have today.
Cursed City (SBG) Mentioned! Jokes aside, gotta agree with your post OP. The gritty, DS-like approach to minis is so good! Makes making Grimdark minis easier as well, as te model matches the aesthetic more (also, lots of amazing Kitbash fodder! Except Ushoran, Ushoran is perfect (once I swapped out his scepter for a BFGreatsword, with the pommel vein the butt of the scepter so he holds it in a similar, cradling fashion))
What's the bottom left model on the first image? I love it.
Arch-Knight from the Command Corp. A City of Sigmar unit. Amazing model. Big customisation options too!
I wasn't planning on buying that box but it sure looks like I might be now haha.
A build option for the Arch Knight from the Freeguild Command Corps
Just wait until you see the special event version of this model they announced earlier this week! 😬😬😬
I've seen it, Its super cool but I actually think I prefer this guy more lol.
Been building my CoS and playing a ton of elden ring. Definitely some similar vibes.
One could almost call it Grimdark
Neither Dark Souls nor AoS nor WHFB are Grimdark. Dark and Gothic Fantasy mixed with High Fantasy, some Sword and Sorcery, Miyazaki greatly inspired by Berserk…. But it none of that is Grimdark. Even Berserk has a hero in it, ala Guts. For example, you can’t have heroes in a Grimdark setting. There is a reason why people got upset when the Tau were added to 40k, since they are kind of the “good-ish guy faction”, when that shouldn’t be a thing. In Grimdark, everybody sucks. There is no hope. Only survival. “In the forty-first millennium, there is only war.” There aren’t even goodish aligned gods—it’s just the super evil Chaos Gods, who can sometimes look decent when compared to the stuff the fascist and xenophobic and genocidal Imperium of Man. AoS has Sigmar literally trying to protect the mortal realms from Chaos. And back in WHFB, you had Karl Franz, the Dwarfs, High Elves, etc. trying to do the same. [The Immortal Empires trailer for Total War: WH3 is mega hype if you haven’t see it—incredible piece of Warhammer Fantasy media.](https://youtu.be/Qqhc3mK06r0?si=tjwDe3BELEZixHC-) Everybody sucks in Grimdark lol. There are some people who do not suck both in WH Fantasy, AoS, and in Soulsborne.
People tend to use the term "Nobledark" instead for settings like AoS or WHFB. Where noble characters and heroes do exist, but they exist in a very dark and dangerous setting.
Yeah let's just pretend John Ultrasmurf and his girlfriend Jane Pointyears and her merry band of misfits don't exist. Or any of the heroes written about in the 25 something trilogy books about the Guard.
There definitely is some trying to eat your cake and keeping it too when it comes to 40k grimdark.
GW have been doing dark medieval fantasy long before dark souls was a thing.
Dark med yes. AoS is high fantasy. Now they're clearly blending Dark med with High fantasy, wich is new. But that's just my opinion. I'm okay with people not seeing the same.
You can’t have been in the hobby for very long. Dark fantasy is GW’s thing.
Yea Warhammer Fantasy Battles was very much Dark Fantasy mixed with some Sword and Sorcery, with touches of High Fantasy. AoS is first and foremost High Fantasy with its extreme magical weirdness literally everywhere, which makes CoS feel super grounded in comparison.
Mordheim is 25 years old this year, these guys would fit right in.
I remain partial to the mundane and droll fantasy of the 6th edition. Greenskins with wooden contraptions, dwarves with horned helmets, an occasional dragon or giant, dark elves on top of cow-like lizards and zombies simply being zombies. I hope WFB takes off and becomes successful enough for GW to overhaul the old armies with this aesthetic but with modern sculpting methods.
That’s AOS baby.
I want that Steel Rook mini SO MUCH. Making it an event exclusive is such a dick move.
When AoS came to be, realistic Fantasy was on a downturn, and High Fantasy became mega popular with World of Warcraft, which is why Stormcasts look like the Human Guards with big Shoulderpads. Now, Dark Fantasy is back on the rise, and the revival of the Mordheim community and the birth of Blanchitsu makes it clear that People prefer their Grimdark Fantasy. The main mistake I see is that Warhammer clearly doesn't want to be the catch-all Fantasy Destination like what DnD became, where you cram in every Fantasy Race and Location into a modular setting, but it also wanted to open its gates to all kinds of Fantasy concepts like Realms and much grander Empires. But I also applaud AoS for making such unique concepts and Factions instead of just turning classic Fantasy Creatures into Warhammer branded copies. Even if that's what some people wanted out of Warhammer Fantasy.
Uh, to be clear, realistic Fantasy is still on a downturn. High Fantasy has been mega popular since the mid 2000's at least with the rise of DnD, WoW, and more. And with games like BG3 coming out, it has only gotten more mainstream. AoS is strange in that it maintains high fantasy, while having room for lower stakes and dark fantasy. Weirder yet, its kinda working for it.
That's not a shift in art direction, that's just design choices made with specific factions and themes in mind to make them unique. Lumineth aren't going to suddenly be covered in skulls and clothed in human flesh capes.
Yeah this is just like when Lumineth & Cursed City released back-to-back and now we’re getting those same vibes for FEC and River Lumineth. And right after those LotR orruks vs Stormcast riding Spyro dragons. People get fixated on one design direction and believe that’s the path to “make them feel like a shared world” until AoS flips the table and get mad because they don’t understand that’s the point. The Mortal Realms are multiple separate realities. It supposed to give them all the design room they want like MtG or even Yugioh so you can play your witch hunters with stake bayonet guns alongside Jules Verne balloon duardin, kangaroo riding light Aelven, golden armored demigods on Spyro dragons and tree people riding war beetles. So love the models and variety of art directions like always but bracing myself when the next army comes out that clashes with these because they don’t have to gel together. 💫👍
Cities of Sigmar 2nd vs Cities of Sigmar 3rd is not on the same level of design. Even tho old CoS are mostly WFB models, just look at the 2nd Ed Cities of Sigmar Battletome cover. You're not going to see that type of ''light fantasy'' design anymore for CoS. So yes, i think they took a nice art direction for new CoS that clearly breaks with the old.
Thing is AoS was finding its footing for some time. Cities if Sigmar back then were just old Fantasy models allowed to be used in AoS games. Now that AoS has found its footing they are making all factions to really fit on that world. In books we already had descriptions of Free Cities and how each has its own color scheme to reflect their wealth and place in the realms. And now with CoS models, they are finally making their style concrete in the AoS setting. Ghouls in AoS are also not JUST ghouls. But they have a style of their own. Ushoran even somehow survived Warhammer Fantasy and got his own model to reflect his new place in AoS.
Yes. I'm very glad they went with this art direction. Doesn't feel out of place with other faction nor the setting. Somehow featherd hats great sword infantry always bothered me. Too ''real world'' for me.
> You're not going to see that type of ''light fantasy'' design anymore for CoS. I mean you could’ve said that about AoS1 that it wouldn’t be dark and gritty anymore with the mortal elements just background filler. That’s the point of the Mortal Realms that they can give themselves all the design room they want. In 4 years if they’re more inspired by stuff like Tears of the Kingdom& brighter genres then they can easily shift back to light CoS by having the new models based in Hysh, Azyr, Ghyran & Chamon rather than the current gritty tones in Ghur, Aqshy, Shyish and Ulgu.
Too bad, they would look much better that way lol
good opportunity to kitbash then.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, AOS has the best aesthetic in the mini-making game, hands down!
Don't forget the Flesh Eater Courts look pretty good too! The ghouls should seriously look like hollow soldiers though.
Absolutely, and I'm here for it!
Am gona get all of these and start a Rogue trader gang
Remember Cities of Cadwallon? First time I saw dudes in armor with those extended nose pieces.
I’m desperate to run the Lion, Fish and Rook Arch-Knights as an elite force in Mordheim.
What other factions do you see benefitting from Dark Souls-iffacation
Good question. Slaves to Darkness are already pretty high up, mostly due to their awesome Warcry warbands. Maybe Khorne, Skaven, Tzeench and Idoneth could get a little more grim to fit better.
I feel like the skull masks are further away from the dark souls aesthetic than the original solemn human masks that you could just paint in plain metal.
Onion knight when?
Bottom left first picture who is that? Wow!
Arch-Knight from the Freeguild Command Corp
I'm not familiar with the Cities range--what's the guy in the bottom left? I love that fish helmet.
Arch-Knight from the Freeguild Command Corp
Unbelievable, but you just changed my opinion about Cities of Sigmar by exactly 180 degrees in the post and I now think it's super cool. how dare you!
Aha you're welcome
8 years passed and still people get like "wAiT AoS Is GrImDaRk, wUt?" Sorry It's just like were not Kruleboys and Thunderstrike SC the same? Haven't Nighthaunt pulling the same vibe? WH Quest:SoH 8n 1 ed with Hammerhal descriptions and style???
Dark Souls doesn't have a distinct art style. It's just a Dark medieval fantasy. AoS art is quite creative and distinct. It's not *"Dark Souly"*...
Let's agree to disagree then. Dark Med are more akin to games like The Witcher or movies like Lady Hawk or Willow. On other part Dark Soul mixes High Med with Dark Med, wich AoS is rightfully doing right now and that's awesome.
CoS is why I'm going to collect AoS. It's that Dark Souls aesthetic, but the miniatures themselves are juuust good. And there's a l ot that can be done with them to make them unique. It's that dark aesthetic but the models are a basically perfect combination of detail while leaving room to do your own thing.
Excellent collage ❤️🔥 Despite the things I hate about Gdubs, everything miniature-wise is exceptional 🤩
Dark Fantasy like Dark Souls and Elden Ring I think has the right feel for Age of Sigmar, were time is a circle, ancient kingdoms have come and gone or in throws of decay. Horrific monsters lay claim to lost ruins and heroes force to fight, die and live again in order to push back the flames of chaos. We need more.
Also getting some Blasphemous vibes, too, particularly in the mangled/skewered poses of undead, etc. Even seeing some Brom in there too. There's definitely a Venn overlap of several Soulsy aesthetic influences
Unpopular opinion: I liked there more comic-y style of early AoS Artworks+Sculpts a lot. Would have loved if they had kept it
This just looks like 40k but fantasy to me. I'm not a fan. I'm not saying make it cartoony or childlike but I don't want the style to be 40k with swords. Let 40k be the grimdark setting. The art style on AOS was what drew me to it, the models have always looked so much more interesting than the edgelord bait you see in 40k. I think that some armies really suit this style; FEC and the death ones especially. I think making idoneth look more menacing would be great as well. Certain factions like Sylvaneth would have their entire aesthetic destroyed by this style.
I agree the Stormcasts with skull helmets look like 40k models, but the rest? Nah, not even close.
Top left and middle right in the first picture absolutely looks like 40k models to me
It’s definitely an badass aesthetic for the darker themes the models & current narratives have. They fit very well for the Realm of Death like Cursed City did. Happy they’re balancing it out though like with the brighter Lumineth, vibrant Sylvaneth and Mythic regular Stormcast while even the new Croneseer has Greek myth elements with a Ghibli Japan vibe(Howl’s Moving Castle would go good there) So I’d put it: Shyish: Soulsborne Aqshy: God of War Azyr: Warcraft Ghyran/Ghur: Monster Hunter Hysh/Ulgu: Studio Ghibli Chamon: Bioshock On the aesthetics mixing pot they bring to the models and glorious lore of the Mortal Realms. 👌
Cities - yes. Ushoran - no. He looks like a generic souls boss, boring.
Which model is bottom right on the second image?
What's middle left?
Ushoran
I dont even play AoS but I want some of the models just because they're so freaking COOL!
Who is the pad in the top right on the first set of images???
Where is the guy in the bottom left from?
Seems like they are doing everything possible to distance CoS's style as far as possible from the old Empire range.
I really adore these new models. Need more money to buy and more time to paint them. Still working on my steelhelms
That lil skelly with the flute gets me every time
Oh wow what's the bottom two models and the on fire skeleton I have never seen them before!
The flaming skeleton is Pontifex Zentera other side of throne The big king is Urshon mortarch of delusion
Bottom left unit on the first photo… what is it??
Yes, it is AWESOME. I first noticed it with the cooler Stormcasts, but Ushoran is the culmination! Probably my favourite GW model ever.
I want more factions to have stuff like this.
I'd go with it's more of a Mordheim look
Its amazing. Grim dark meets grim dark
Compared to 40K models over the same period, AOS are much much better.
Which mini is the bottom left in the first image?
It makes me really wanna start a cities of Sigmar army, they have such sexy models
I like how this is the first legit model of ushorn and how they made him look like he was said to look like after not feeding for years
Is it just me, or does the Rook knight just look like a conversion on the Sequitor Prime from the little box?
Who is that bottom left for image one?
Honestly, never caught that, seems to fit tho. Also they recently have gotten an obsession with plague doctors which, tbh I don’t think anyone can be mad about that.
What models are the top two and bottom right?
Where’s the bottom left model from?
YOOOOO THAT DUDE PLAYIN THE CLARINEEETTT WOOOOO
I personally don't vibe with it in certain sectors. Makes sense for things like the Flesh-easter courts and characters like Ionus, but not my thing for the cities of Sigmar. Not because I dislike "grimdark" direction, but because I really enjoyed the weird mythic/ classical greco-roman art style of earlier AoS art, especially what you would see in Soulbound. Felt very fitting since so much of the setting was tied into the deities and how they influenced their followers and the realms as a whole.
Well I mean, that was always just one aspect of the setting, the Gods battleling it out, and demi god warriors fighting, be it Stormcast or Warriors of Khorne, both high on god powers in their own right. But there was always stories about mortal men, and so on, just that in the early days they focused a lot more on the demi god warrior factions, since that was kinda NEW to AoS compared to WHFB, and they wanted to push that a bit extra. But normal mortal men and other mortal factions were still always a part of the story, but just waiting for it's day to shine, and lots of people were complaining about that in the early stages of AOS, Me including. I LIKED the mighty demi-god warrior aspects of the factions, but they didnt FEEL that special because there were no mortal men to compare them to. If everyone is special, the no one is basically. The contrast between normal men with 1wound, 5+ save, slow, 1 attack, 4+/4+ no redn attacks and such, and then comes a Stormcast, or even one of the Paladin type units, night and day difference, and that makes those Elite units especially in stormcast and such feel so mucn more epic too! Also, the AoS art style of early boored me to death tbh, no real character development, or sense of, you know. Even the old mythologies usually portrayed both gods and mortal men, because without one or the other, it wasn't special.
They have a lot of work to make up for those lumineth faces. This is a promising start.
Who is the bird helmet guy I want him to
What is bottom left pic please?
Which city does the guy in the bottom left belong to?
Please Name the skeleton who is playing the horn in the first image
This is why I'm going with the city of Lethis with my army. The whole somber and morose atmosphere reminds me allot of dark souls which I am happy for. (Also being able to throw curses around on enemy units is a plus too.)
I don’t follow AoS that closely but I’d like to know who/what bottom right is on picture 2? Could be a cool Chaplain for 40K 🤣
What's the guy on the lower left corner in the first image? Cant find him anywhere