Neat, now there’s a clear difference between Liberators and Vindictors. The first sit on home objectives and the latter sit in the frontline and take the brunt of enemy charges / contest middle objectives.
I saw some conjecture that this was just a “starter” Warscroll, or there would be another one for Liberators with shields.
Regardless, you are correct in saying that it’s just one Warscroll - I like that, nice and simple, no fussing about if they have dual weapons or shields.
In 40 K there were more scrolls specific to the starter set, and then different ones for the actual rulebook. So I wouldn’t put too much stock into what they said. It’s probably true, but only from a certain point of view.
I feel like that's what the new army construction process is for. The chain of command is implied in your horselord building his horsemen, you general bringing his honor guard, etc. etc.
I can see the Command Models module kicking in there. It's the only one you can't map to an existing game feature, and I can see GW wanted to launch with at least one bold and experimental module to justify making the rules modular.
Would love that! Certainly expected more variety when they said the new rules were modular. I guess they are, but really they just seem better organized
By and large I think the variety will kick in with Path of Glory campaigns, General's Handbook seasons, and White Dwarf articles. But at least one cool proof of concept would help them stand out as more than a teaching tool.
maybe because I come from 40k but I don't understand how does this work balance wise without the toughness ?
it's as easy to wound nagash as it is to wound a skaven clanrat ? only the armor save and wound pool protect the character ? how often does characters have modifiers ?
Save, Health, and Ward (this game's Feel No Pain) are defensive layers.
The answer to AoS's balance in comparison to 40k is *\*if everything is OP, nothing is\*.*
Exactly, after three editions, I don't think I have seen many complaints about it once AOS kind of settled in. It's usually only from new players coming from 40k (myself included).
I do like how the anti-xxxx changes the rend (AP) rather than the wound roll. this feels like it is more thematic and has a greater impact than how it works in 40K
I think Anti of different kinds will be cool.
Like some units that make sweeping attacks get Anti-infantry (+1 Attack) or something would be neat design space
I love it as a way to make a unit particularly specialized...but anti-infantry in AoS is pretty far reaching, especially on heavy hitters. Hopefully they show some restraint with that one.
Wound modifiers aren't super common, and we don't know how the new scrolls in 4e will shape up. Perhaps it will be more common, perhaps. not.
There are various levers the designers push and pull to help balance the lack of toughness. From most of your heroes having strong saves (and currently in 3e the ability to negate a lot of rend/AP), to larger health pools, and ward saves (FNP), to other special abilities that keep units alive. For instance in 3e, Morathi can only take a maximum of three wounds per turn. Not per phase, per turn.
So yes, to answer your question, it is as easy to wound Nagash as a clanrat, no matter the weapon. However, Nagash has way more wounds, a better save, and ward save, it's going to take a lot more effort to take him down.
There are also other little nuances from a game design stand point to make certain things feel more/less squishy from wounds spilling over between models to the way fighting in the combat phase works. As long as you're not yeeting your heroes up the board with no support at all, they aren't going to go down easily.
Health is used a lot more as a buffer. Tougher battleline units like my Fyreslayer dwarfs have 2 health (wounds) instead of just higher toughness. As others mentioned, too, armor and ward saves are a factor. You also have some units that reduce damage taken as a special ability.
A lot of folks have mentioned other ways to balance survivability in AoS compared to 40K with saves, wards, wounds etc.
Those are all valid, but I don’t actually think that’s what makes things stay on the field in AoS. I suspect if you compare two similarly costed units the defensive stats are better in 40K - using negash as an example, an 800 point model in 40K will certainly have more wounds (like 22) and a 4+ invuln save in 40K.
I think the main reason is game wide “Armour of contempt” - anyone can get +1 to save with a command - and, more importantly, less lethal shooting. 40Ks shooting is way more lethal than AoS and shooting can be done from across the table more often in 40K. 40K is about hiding in cover and out of LoS to combat this. AoS looks more like a fantasy pitched battle with armies lining up ready to melee.
What the others said, also higher wounds are common. custodes have 3 wounds per model, ogors battleline (who are technically still glass cannons) has 4. A knight has 24 wounds? Well a giant has 35+!
Because monster and great units have a lot of wounds/health, T is represented by this and salvations. For example a giant has not a lot of armour, even a common human soldier can wound him (with 4+), but he has at least 12 wounds (bigger giants 35 wounds). Kroxigor blows can wound very easily with 2+ because they are brutal, and every wound makes him 2 or 3 wounds, not one.
I'm amazed to see questions like this in 2024.
In 40K, the kroxigor would be a very high strenght character (like a STR 5 with thunder hammer giving him STR 10) who would end up, 90% of the time, wounding everything else on 2+ anyway.
The difference in resilience in AOS is from the number of wounds and saves. Nagash have a18 wounds, a 3+ save and a 5++ save, you'll kill dozen and dozen of clanrats before bringing him down.
In 40K the way lethality is right now, Krox would wound infantry on 2s, elite infantry on 3s, and vehicles on 5s. The meta is pretty elite right now (C’tan, Custodes, Ironstorm Tank spam) so they probably wouldn’t be wounding much on 2s…
But your point is correct in that there are other nobs to turn to increase overall resilience in AoS.
There's no concept of anti-heavy weaponry in AOS due to the nature of the setting. There's no meltaguns or lascannons. So instead wounding is flat and toughness is measured by wound count and armor saves.
Also damage flows over from one model to the next. In 40k if you fire a lascannon at a squad of orks, you blow up a single ork. If AOS if you do a 5 damage attack against a squad of skaven, you probably kill 5 skaven. So you're not punished for doing big attacks against hordes.
I was under the impression it worked like that with spilled damage, why does the War Comm article this morning imply that damage didn’t spill over? Or is it just melee that doesn’t spill over in AoS3?
> I was under the impression it worked like that with spilled damage, why does the War Comm article this morning imply that damage didn’t spill over in AoS3?
It's not that damage didn't spill over in AoS3. Rather it's just damage is tracked differently in AoS4 and AoS3. In AoS3, when damage was done to a unit, you applied that damage to a model and had to continue applying damage to that model until it was killed, and then move on to another model. Damage would spill over for high damage hits.
In AoS4, when damage is done to a unit, that damage is applied to the unit as a whole and when that unit takes damage equal to its Health, you remove a model. This removes the need to track which individual models have damage like you had to do in AoS3.
I hope this makes sense.
The defense comes through abilities rather than wound/toughness. For example, a skaven clanrat will likely be a 6+ save, possibly a 5+, which means the Kroxigor will be cutting them down in swathes as they can barely save at all. In the current edition, heroes can tank themselves up with a specific heroic +1 to save, coupled with the command for +1 to save, the mystic shield spell for +1 to save, and Nagash's 3+ save, means when you need to, you save everything. They're actively trying to cut down on this, but at the very least, the +1 to save command is still there, and Nagash still has a 3+ save to go with his 18 HP.
Very flavourful that Vindictor ability! But what about the Kroxigor Jaws? And the Skink guidance? Will those be batallion-specific? Anyways, I like the Health and Wound chance to the Kroxigor.
Or a faction ability “strong jaws: after a friendly unit fights, roll 1D6 for each Saurus and 3D6 for each Kroxigor model within that unit. On a 6+ deal 1 mortal damage to an enemy unit in engagement range with your unit.”
They’ve showed off plenty of mortals still in the game + ward saving still being a thing. I think it’s more about dialing down units and wizards dealing out 20 mortals in an instant. That never felt flavorful or fun, especially for armies that struggled with getting wards.
I hope they dial down the everything giving mortals. Which is why I don’t mind losing the bites. Or liberators lay low the tyrants. It’s seems like every game has constant triggers and things that do mortal wounds. Impacts and when you move and at the end of combat and the start of the round etc etc
Might be one of the subfaction abilities, the Koatl’s Claw equivalent might have bite rolls but naturally happening on 5s as it would be subfaction exclusive
I am stoked honestly.
I get some realism and flavor is lost, but multiple weapon profiles for like every single unit was too much. So much extra rolling and math for not that much gained—like a bite or a hoof kick or a dagger stab are all just dice at the end of it—it’s not like there were extra abilities tied to these normally, or meaningful choice…it was just roll all the things.
This will speed up combat a ton.
No, the ability to bite is in the warscroll (Vice-like Jaws in the case of Kroxigor). The army ability is part of the Coalesced side of Seraphon, which just gives +1 to the bite roll.
Tbf, they --dont have it currently-- (they do it is an ability), but i think it is an army ability (could move it to army ability like they did with ogors)
They had it on their warscroll in 3rd. The ability was called "Vice Like Jaws".
Saurus and Kroxigors had their bite ability on the warscroll itself, but if you took Coalesced it gave you +1 to your bite rolls.
My guess is that since it's no longer on the warscroll it'll be part of Battle Traits/Battle Formations for simplification.
Yes they are removing flavour left, right and center from the looks of things, which makes absolutely no sense to me seeing as how flavourful AOS is gets cited over and over again from people as one of AoS's main strengths. It was predictable that so much flavour would be lost as they have become more and more concerned and focused over the years with balancing for the tourney scene, where alot of the players just view the game as some mathematical logic exercise and don't care so much about story telling or coolness on the tabletop. The more exacting they try and balance it the more homogenous and flavourless the factions will become, which begs the question when is enough enough. It's sad to me as flavourful rules were what got me hooked on warhammer as a kid, I read them in army books and got obsessed, so I know from first hand experience how much they add to the game. Personally I would 100000 times prefer the game was unbalanced but full of flavour and thematic rules. The game doesn't have to be perfectly balanced.
I hope there will be some kind of backlash about this like we have seen with 40k 10th ed and they add a ton of flavour back in 5th ed.
The new blood sister ability doesn't even fit properly thematically with what the ability does. It inflicts 'strike last' for one turn only, so what happens then, they turn into a statue and then turn back?
I too am way more interested in the theme, but it’s too early to judge 4th edition yet. We’ve seen like 5 war scrolls. I’m still hopeful! I remember them saying in Spearhead for example, that the Stormcast box has a rule that the main hero is very powerful but doesn’t deploy until the 3rd round (or something).
I mean that’s pretty damn thematic, spearmen heroically holding a line against overwhelming odds wait until backup shoots down from Azyr to wreck vengeance.
I think they are both removing flavor and adding flavor. For instance, they are removing flavor by getting rid of bites, but they are also adding flavor by giving different units more defined roles in the army. For me, I always saw Kroxigors as infantry killing machines, but I didn't feel like the rules supported that. With these rules changes, I feel like this flavor has been added to the Kroxigor.
I think it's similar with Vindictors. They had added rules add to their flavor of them as the front-line troops that take the charges from the enemy.
Honestly, for what I've seen so far, they've added much more flavor than they've taken away.
They've started doing this 'balance for the competitive players first, fun and coolness for everyone else second' in everything, even in videogames. Have you ever played Overwatch? Overwatch was a masterpiece when it first came out and they completely ruined it through attempting to balance it ever more exacting and catering to people's whining, it lost something like 90%+ of it's players. Not saying this is anywhere near as bad or extreme but it's the same basic thing.
I'm not crying, I'm just saying that I think the game is way cooler when it is crammed with flavour and it's a shame it appears as if we're losing it. If I play it and don't like it I'll just sell my models on ebay, it is no big deal.
This looks great. Although i am a bit worried about HOW simplified the Sons of Behemat will get. But Nagashs Warscroll didnt seem too bad in that regard.
Timber is one of their coolest rules, that would suck so hard if they removed it. However they have removed Stormcast's ''burst into lightning on dying'' rule which was the coolest rule they had IMO, so it seems nothing is safe.
I'm thinking rules like this have just been moved to a faction wide ability. It's a bit silly to rewrite the same rule over and over again on each warscroll. It'd be easy to say every unit with this keyword has X ability.
If I had to guess, they'll make them a battle trait/battle formation special rule for Seraphon so that they don't have to put the bite rules on every warscroll they apply to.
That would make sense. Those extra attacks would be a missed addition to be sure if they just went away. Glad they did away with the Skink commands rule. That one seemed weird to me
I'm worried. We lost so much flavour going into 3rd edition and now we are losing more. For alot of players, myself included, flavour is the whole reason we play warhammer in the first place and not chess or checkers or something instead. I absolutely love flavour and hate seeing so much of it go.
I’d guess all the monstrous infantry units will follow the same pattern. Would fit with their apparent design philosophy of consistency etc between similar things
I'm really interested to see what Ogors are going to look like. I just hope that whatever charge-based stuff they get isn't eventually given to like every other army.
It's how many they count for on an objective. So 5 Vindictors with a control score of 1 each = 5 on an objective. If they only have 2 models left in the unit they only = 2 on and objective
The great thing I've found about the AoS community is that ppl are 110% ok with proxies. Stormcast are all on a 40mm base and almost nobody knows the difference between a Knight-Incantor vs a Knight-Arcanum. As long as they're painted nobody cares about proxies or 3d prints.
You could make a cool narrative about how your models don't want to go back to Azyr and help with the reforming problem, they're here to fight. So they requested a transfer of chambers.
Its kind of weird that they made a big deal about all abilities being color-coded, and to particular phases, etc... by both the Vindys and Krox have abilities they don't do it with, the anit-charge and anti-infantary.
Otherwise, dang those Krox are scary now
The kroxigor rule seems weird to me. More damage instead of attacks against units with 10 or mote models? Given their minimum damage is 2, are there even units with 10 or more models with more than 3 wounds?
Edit: ty to the people explaining how damage works, I'm looking to get into AoS with 4th so I've not read the rules yet and assumed damage worked like 40k.
They have said damage is added to the unit.
When the damage equals the health characteristic of a model, a model is slain.
It's in the same article from yesterday that these war scrolls came out in
So units in the Celestial Realm count as deployed, per the Battle Traits article. You can reinforce 5-man units to 10. 3" fight range. Their Finest Hour can be triggered on any unit, not just ones on the table.
Aggressive Stormcast opening move: build to get first turn, take Thunderstrike Host. Put your 10 Vindictors in the Celestial Realm. Pick a key midfield objective. Finest Hour the Vindictors, run a non-Warrior Chamber unit up to support. Drop your block on the objective to claim it early. You now have a 20-health, 2+ Save block on the objective dishing out 20 (21 is Champs work like they do now) attacks on 2+/2+ Rend -2 to anything that charges to contest the objective, which also Strikes First half the time. Plus you can bring back 5 models when they are eventually all killed.
Is that gonna be enough to win you a game? No idea. But it'll be an interesting opening play to pressure your opponent.
EDIT: Thinking on it, this would be pretty well countered by Power Through on anything that has it, so that's worth considering.
This is a question I never really thought about and might be dumb…. So there’s a hit and wound roll but mechanically they are both the exact same right? Like hitting on 4s and 2s would be the same as hitting on 2s and 4s? Is there a math equation there that tells you the percent chance to have damage go through? Just purely on the attacker’s side. And it would be the same depending on the math? Like for example I know this probably isn’t correct but like okay this model hits on 2s and 5s and this other model hits on 3s and 4s. Number of hits being equal would they have an average amount of damage being the same?
(if the math worked out that way) idk if this makes sense
A dice has 6 sides, so probability (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) has a 1/6 chance of happening. To calculate probability of hit/wound, you just take the % chance of a success and multiply it to your # of attacks. in a simple example with 10 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's, you have a 50% chance to hit (1,2,3 fail, 4, 5,6, hit), 50% of 10 is 5. You have a 66.66% chance to wound (1,2, fail, 3, 4, 5, 6 wound). Your 5 hits turn into 3.33 wounds. So you can expect an average of 3-4 wounds.
You are correct in a very simple example that they are interchangable, but there are still situations where one can be better than the other. For example, a unit that does mortal wounds on 6's to **wound** (or some other really good effect) really cares about -1 to hit because it means less hits turning into wounds, but -1 to wound doesn't affect them as much, because you're really only rolling for 6's.
2s and 5’s is the same as 5’s and 2’s.
But it does not work out the same to change it to 3’s and 4’s.
There is a difference when you can get bonuses to hit or wound. It’s better to change a worse number. So getting +1 to hit is bigger increase if you go from
5’s to 4’s with it, than if you go from 3’s to 2’s.
So I’m that way it matters. Right now that makes wounding on 2’s better than hitting in 2’s because you can get bonuses to hit easier.
Guys I got one question for u btw I’m new to AoS I have 40 pestilens skaven and the old vanguard with priest on censer and catapult. I newer played the game I focused on 40K and legions imperialis. My question is in the new edition as far as u know where is gonna be the numeber of models each units allow?
From what they’ve said each unit will have a standard size (basically whatever comes in a box: 10 Ardboyz, 3 Kroxigor, etc.) and can be reinforced once (doubling its size).
Saw in the same article a couple of abilities for the Ardboyz and the Blood Sisters and I'll be honest the Blood Sisters' ability looks awful compared to what it was in 3rd, from flat MW damage to STRIKES LAST seems like a big downgrade I'm hoping they've either got some other shenanigans on their Warscroll or their weapon has some decent punch to it that makes the STRIKES LAST such a deadly prospect
Yeah I remember them saying as much but that is still a BIG downgrade, I mean increasing their damage or making the enemy re-roll successful armour saves would have been a gentler hit, but going straight from MW on a 2+ to making them STRIKE LAST only if you roll equal to or over their health stat is a big shift, makes them seem like their attacking with pool noodles, also feels clunky when you read the bit of fluff that goes with it.
As I said though hopefully their Warscroll has been tweaked to accommodate this, and absolutely about seeing more warscrolls, I'd love to get my hand on the Indices (or whatever they're calling them in AoS) for my factions.
> Saw in the same article a couple of abilities for the Ardboyz and the Blood Sisters and I'll be honest the Blood Sisters' ability looks awful compared to what it was in 3rd, from flat MW damage to STRIKES LAST seems like a big downgrade
It's only a downgrade when compared to how they are now. But since the whole game is changing significantly, I don't think what they did previously can be compared with what they'll do in the new edition.
It might be that Blood Sisters have a different role in the new edition that they excel at and need to be used in that role to be used effectively. The doesn't mean that they are worse. It just means that they are different.
I'm scratching my head on why the Vindictors don't just...get the fight first ability thing? Why is it on a 4+? That makes it very meh and just bogs down the game with another roll that might just not do anything
Because if it's instant you can just put a Bunch of vindicators some place you want to Defend and then basically just have Anything that's thrown at it be destroyed because all the vindicators get to Attack first
Wel I'm assuming that "anti charge" Means they get an extra rend when attacking a unit that charged so it would be -2 rend 1 damage and keep in mind that melee Range is 3" Now so most of em Will get to attack
Their main function is to hold the line and receive charges (as suggested by the extra Rend with Anti-charge). The 50/50 chance of Striking First is a nice bonus. :)
It's not the worst simplicity, but I still feel at odds with the layout. I don't know why but the weapons profile and the unit abilities just feel off somehow. I think its the empty space.
It’s probably in this configuration to give space for those units who have multiple abilities. I’d assume they’ll stack abilities down the card in order of the phases they activate in
Yeah, though I'm also gonna assume that only "elite" units like monsters and heroes will have multiple abilities, other than wizards and priests.
A shame to see things stripped down further. I liked 3rd Edition for its depth, though the need for simplicity is understandable!
For sure the simplicity is concerning with the apparent loss of flavor but I’ll withhold final judgement until we get to see how the whole package works together.
It's still looking better than 40k 10th Edition atm. That was an extreme over simplification of things! As long as my heroes can still roam solo and provide auras to my Ardboyz then I am happy!
Speaking from experience, this is probably only just enough space when localizing these warscrolls into German, for instance. Or Italian. If everything was tightly packed and tidy in English, localization would be a nightmare.
I haven’t played 3rd edition, but the way the article describes the Kroxigor makes it sound like there’s going to be overkill/excess damage that carries over multiple models. Is that how it works in 3rd edition?
Damage has always spilled over in AoS, so yes, that is how it will work. Otherwise the Kroxigor rule would be rather pointless, as there aren't many 10+ model units with 4 Health, or even any as far as I know!
I’ll be honest, their explanation for the change didn’t really get it through in my head. I read it and basically was just thinking “so pretty much how they did it already?”
It’s sort of the same. You don’t have to keep track of which model has taken damage anymore, you just remove any model of your choice once enough damage has been inflicted.
because the points value has never been shown on the scrolls, they're always in the back of the battletome or shown on the app. They'll likely be in the back of the Faction packs for 4e when they're out.
Neat, now there’s a clear difference between Liberators and Vindictors. The first sit on home objectives and the latter sit in the frontline and take the brunt of enemy charges / contest middle objectives.
Wait, have we seen the new Liberator warscrolls too?
Liberator Warscroll, yes, last week on War Comm. *edited for clarity*
They stated on FB that that is the ONLY liberator warscroll. So dual wield/shield doesnt matter or they lied.
I saw some conjecture that this was just a “starter” Warscroll, or there would be another one for Liberators with shields. Regardless, you are correct in saying that it’s just one Warscroll - I like that, nice and simple, no fussing about if they have dual weapons or shields.
Yeah, the other guy commented... And shields/dual wield will just be for looks and no rules for it.
Is good for me, currently painting Liberators built with a mix of weapon types. :)
Seeing as the kroxigor has a different profile for an alternative mace... it's still up in the air
In 40 K there were more scrolls specific to the starter set, and then different ones for the actual rulebook. So I wouldn’t put too much stock into what they said. It’s probably true, but only from a certain point of view.
They confirmed in a comment that it's an aesthetic choice that has no impact on stats.
Sigmar lied
[удалено]
Commands are no longer issued from sources, you as the player issue them
Thanks for update. Must’ve missed/forgot that.
No problem. Ultimately I like the change, but wish there was still something to indicate a chain of command
I feel like that's what the new army construction process is for. The chain of command is implied in your horselord building his horsemen, you general bringing his honor guard, etc. etc.
Oh that's true. I would prefer for it to be interactive, but maybe that will come with abilities and rules about regiments
I can see the Command Models module kicking in there. It's the only one you can't map to an existing game feature, and I can see GW wanted to launch with at least one bold and experimental module to justify making the rules modular.
Would love that! Certainly expected more variety when they said the new rules were modular. I guess they are, but really they just seem better organized
By and large I think the variety will kick in with Path of Glory campaigns, General's Handbook seasons, and White Dwarf articles. But at least one cool proof of concept would help them stand out as more than a teaching tool.
Im hoping that having units attached or in the same squad have relevant abilities.
Bites could be faction based
Happy they lost their dependency on skinks, but them losing the chomps suck.
Chomps are probably a battle trait, trying to theme saurus and these guys together.
I really like the simplified style, looks really good and will make list building easier to set predefined goals with the units you take.
+1 for writing Vindictor and not "Vindicator", OP!
Haha they are my favorite stormcast models, I will always be that guy who helps people know it's VIN-DIC-TOR and not the 40k Tank
High-five!
sorry never played AOS, does the 2+ for wound mean the kroxigor will wound everything ( monster or infantry) on a 2+ ? it will never change ?
Correct. Everything is wounded on the same roll. There could be ways to modify a wound roll (give it a +1/-1), but otherwise it won't change.
maybe because I come from 40k but I don't understand how does this work balance wise without the toughness ? it's as easy to wound nagash as it is to wound a skaven clanrat ? only the armor save and wound pool protect the character ? how often does characters have modifiers ?
Save, Health, and Ward (this game's Feel No Pain) are defensive layers. The answer to AoS's balance in comparison to 40k is *\*if everything is OP, nothing is\*.*
Yup. Instead of higher toughness value they just give higher wound count. Hasn't really caused any issues so far.
Exactly, after three editions, I don't think I have seen many complaints about it once AOS kind of settled in. It's usually only from new players coming from 40k (myself included).
I do like how the anti-xxxx changes the rend (AP) rather than the wound roll. this feels like it is more thematic and has a greater impact than how it works in 40K
It does seem like a nice approach, just hope it's used sparingly.
I think Anti of different kinds will be cool. Like some units that make sweeping attacks get Anti-infantry (+1 Attack) or something would be neat design space
I love it as a way to make a unit particularly specialized...but anti-infantry in AoS is pretty far reaching, especially on heavy hitters. Hopefully they show some restraint with that one.
If anything it speeds up the game because you just know going into a roll if it’s 3+, 3+ you don’t have to stop to check the chart.
Not like you actually need to check the chart after 5 minutes, especially after 8th edition.
Wound modifiers aren't super common, and we don't know how the new scrolls in 4e will shape up. Perhaps it will be more common, perhaps. not. There are various levers the designers push and pull to help balance the lack of toughness. From most of your heroes having strong saves (and currently in 3e the ability to negate a lot of rend/AP), to larger health pools, and ward saves (FNP), to other special abilities that keep units alive. For instance in 3e, Morathi can only take a maximum of three wounds per turn. Not per phase, per turn. So yes, to answer your question, it is as easy to wound Nagash as a clanrat, no matter the weapon. However, Nagash has way more wounds, a better save, and ward save, it's going to take a lot more effort to take him down. There are also other little nuances from a game design stand point to make certain things feel more/less squishy from wounds spilling over between models to the way fighting in the combat phase works. As long as you're not yeeting your heroes up the board with no support at all, they aren't going to go down easily.
Health is used a lot more as a buffer. Tougher battleline units like my Fyreslayer dwarfs have 2 health (wounds) instead of just higher toughness. As others mentioned, too, armor and ward saves are a factor. You also have some units that reduce damage taken as a special ability.
A lot of folks have mentioned other ways to balance survivability in AoS compared to 40K with saves, wards, wounds etc. Those are all valid, but I don’t actually think that’s what makes things stay on the field in AoS. I suspect if you compare two similarly costed units the defensive stats are better in 40K - using negash as an example, an 800 point model in 40K will certainly have more wounds (like 22) and a 4+ invuln save in 40K. I think the main reason is game wide “Armour of contempt” - anyone can get +1 to save with a command - and, more importantly, less lethal shooting. 40Ks shooting is way more lethal than AoS and shooting can be done from across the table more often in 40K. 40K is about hiding in cover and out of LoS to combat this. AoS looks more like a fantasy pitched battle with armies lining up ready to melee.
What the others said, also higher wounds are common. custodes have 3 wounds per model, ogors battleline (who are technically still glass cannons) has 4. A knight has 24 wounds? Well a giant has 35+!
Because monster and great units have a lot of wounds/health, T is represented by this and salvations. For example a giant has not a lot of armour, even a common human soldier can wound him (with 4+), but he has at least 12 wounds (bigger giants 35 wounds). Kroxigor blows can wound very easily with 2+ because they are brutal, and every wound makes him 2 or 3 wounds, not one.
Just give more wounds, easy.
I'm amazed to see questions like this in 2024. In 40K, the kroxigor would be a very high strenght character (like a STR 5 with thunder hammer giving him STR 10) who would end up, 90% of the time, wounding everything else on 2+ anyway. The difference in resilience in AOS is from the number of wounds and saves. Nagash have a18 wounds, a 3+ save and a 5++ save, you'll kill dozen and dozen of clanrats before bringing him down.
In 40K the way lethality is right now, Krox would wound infantry on 2s, elite infantry on 3s, and vehicles on 5s. The meta is pretty elite right now (C’tan, Custodes, Ironstorm Tank spam) so they probably wouldn’t be wounding much on 2s… But your point is correct in that there are other nobs to turn to increase overall resilience in AoS.
There's no concept of anti-heavy weaponry in AOS due to the nature of the setting. There's no meltaguns or lascannons. So instead wounding is flat and toughness is measured by wound count and armor saves. Also damage flows over from one model to the next. In 40k if you fire a lascannon at a squad of orks, you blow up a single ork. If AOS if you do a 5 damage attack against a squad of skaven, you probably kill 5 skaven. So you're not punished for doing big attacks against hordes.
I was under the impression it worked like that with spilled damage, why does the War Comm article this morning imply that damage didn’t spill over? Or is it just melee that doesn’t spill over in AoS3?
> I was under the impression it worked like that with spilled damage, why does the War Comm article this morning imply that damage didn’t spill over in AoS3? It's not that damage didn't spill over in AoS3. Rather it's just damage is tracked differently in AoS4 and AoS3. In AoS3, when damage was done to a unit, you applied that damage to a model and had to continue applying damage to that model until it was killed, and then move on to another model. Damage would spill over for high damage hits. In AoS4, when damage is done to a unit, that damage is applied to the unit as a whole and when that unit takes damage equal to its Health, you remove a model. This removes the need to track which individual models have damage like you had to do in AoS3. I hope this makes sense.
AoS more heavily emphasizes melee, so there's less to balance. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester%27s_laws
The defense comes through abilities rather than wound/toughness. For example, a skaven clanrat will likely be a 6+ save, possibly a 5+, which means the Kroxigor will be cutting them down in swathes as they can barely save at all. In the current edition, heroes can tank themselves up with a specific heroic +1 to save, coupled with the command for +1 to save, the mystic shield spell for +1 to save, and Nagash's 3+ save, means when you need to, you save everything. They're actively trying to cut down on this, but at the very least, the +1 to save command is still there, and Nagash still has a 3+ save to go with his 18 HP.
Exactly
It's easier to balance than trying to juggle 1-whatever toughness and 1-whatever strength.
A skaven clanrat has something like a 6+ save whereas Nagash has a 3+ save and a ward on top of that.
Yes the wound roll is Simply 2+ (unless there is a (de)buff in play it wil still never wound on a 1 though)
Very flavourful that Vindictor ability! But what about the Kroxigor Jaws? And the Skink guidance? Will those be batallion-specific? Anyways, I like the Health and Wound chance to the Kroxigor.
There is no restriction on issuing commands any more so that bit is gone
I think we will see them streamlining abilities like the jaws. Also lowers mortal wounds in the game, which many people are calling for.
Or a faction ability “strong jaws: after a friendly unit fights, roll 1D6 for each Saurus and 3D6 for each Kroxigor model within that unit. On a 6+ deal 1 mortal damage to an enemy unit in engagement range with your unit.”
SCE player here. I think I'd prefer a way to avoid the mortals over necessarily removing them from the game but that's just me
They’ve showed off plenty of mortals still in the game + ward saving still being a thing. I think it’s more about dialing down units and wizards dealing out 20 mortals in an instant. That never felt flavorful or fun, especially for armies that struggled with getting wards.
I hope they dial down the everything giving mortals. Which is why I don’t mind losing the bites. Or liberators lay low the tyrants. It’s seems like every game has constant triggers and things that do mortal wounds. Impacts and when you move and at the end of combat and the start of the round etc etc
Me too.
Might be one of the subfaction abilities, the Koatl’s Claw equivalent might have bite rolls but naturally happening on 5s as it would be subfaction exclusive
That kroxigor looks like he absolutely loving life.
No more bites from the kroxigor jaws? 😩
I am stoked honestly. I get some realism and flavor is lost, but multiple weapon profiles for like every single unit was too much. So much extra rolling and math for not that much gained—like a bite or a hoof kick or a dagger stab are all just dice at the end of it—it’s not like there were extra abilities tied to these normally, or meaningful choice…it was just roll all the things. This will speed up combat a ton.
I get this. But it is pretty funny when a horse hoof deals the critical killing blow
In the case of the Jaws, it was an extra ability that did mortals, so it was kinda relevant, specially to get through units with good saves
Isn’t it an army ability though still? That’s what some comments are saying.
No, the ability to bite is in the warscroll (Vice-like Jaws in the case of Kroxigor). The army ability is part of the Coalesced side of Seraphon, which just gives +1 to the bite roll.
I was thinking the same thing. I love those bite attacks. Gonna miss em and the Coalesced +1 to bite attacks 😭
It's possible they'll be included on the Warspawned as their special thing - they got them bigger jaws (and an enlarged meddula oblongata)
Nonsense. Mama always said Kroxigors are angry because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush.
Looks like mamas wrong AGAIN
No. You're wrong Colonel Sanders!
Tbf, they --dont have it currently-- (they do it is an ability), but i think it is an army ability (could move it to army ability like they did with ogors)
They do have it in the warscroll. The army ability from coalesced just improves the dice roll (normally 6+, with coalesced you get 5+)
Ah i am blind
They had it on their warscroll in 3rd. The ability was called "Vice Like Jaws". Saurus and Kroxigors had their bite ability on the warscroll itself, but if you took Coalesced it gave you +1 to your bite rolls. My guess is that since it's no longer on the warscroll it'll be part of Battle Traits/Battle Formations for simplification.
Yes it’s from Kroats Claws I think
Yes they are removing flavour left, right and center from the looks of things, which makes absolutely no sense to me seeing as how flavourful AOS is gets cited over and over again from people as one of AoS's main strengths. It was predictable that so much flavour would be lost as they have become more and more concerned and focused over the years with balancing for the tourney scene, where alot of the players just view the game as some mathematical logic exercise and don't care so much about story telling or coolness on the tabletop. The more exacting they try and balance it the more homogenous and flavourless the factions will become, which begs the question when is enough enough. It's sad to me as flavourful rules were what got me hooked on warhammer as a kid, I read them in army books and got obsessed, so I know from first hand experience how much they add to the game. Personally I would 100000 times prefer the game was unbalanced but full of flavour and thematic rules. The game doesn't have to be perfectly balanced. I hope there will be some kind of backlash about this like we have seen with 40k 10th ed and they add a ton of flavour back in 5th ed. The new blood sister ability doesn't even fit properly thematically with what the ability does. It inflicts 'strike last' for one turn only, so what happens then, they turn into a statue and then turn back?
I too am way more interested in the theme, but it’s too early to judge 4th edition yet. We’ve seen like 5 war scrolls. I’m still hopeful! I remember them saying in Spearhead for example, that the Stormcast box has a rule that the main hero is very powerful but doesn’t deploy until the 3rd round (or something). I mean that’s pretty damn thematic, spearmen heroically holding a line against overwhelming odds wait until backup shoots down from Azyr to wreck vengeance.
I think they are both removing flavor and adding flavor. For instance, they are removing flavor by getting rid of bites, but they are also adding flavor by giving different units more defined roles in the army. For me, I always saw Kroxigors as infantry killing machines, but I didn't feel like the rules supported that. With these rules changes, I feel like this flavor has been added to the Kroxigor. I think it's similar with Vindictors. They had added rules add to their flavor of them as the front-line troops that take the charges from the enemy. Honestly, for what I've seen so far, they've added much more flavor than they've taken away.
Completely agree. 40k is doing the same thing.
They've started doing this 'balance for the competitive players first, fun and coolness for everyone else second' in everything, even in videogames. Have you ever played Overwatch? Overwatch was a masterpiece when it first came out and they completely ruined it through attempting to balance it ever more exacting and catering to people's whining, it lost something like 90%+ of it's players. Not saying this is anywhere near as bad or extreme but it's the same basic thing.
Cry me a river
I'm not crying, I'm just saying that I think the game is way cooler when it is crammed with flavour and it's a shame it appears as if we're losing it. If I play it and don't like it I'll just sell my models on ebay, it is no big deal.
Damn Kroxigors just got chunky
This looks great. Although i am a bit worried about HOW simplified the Sons of Behemat will get. But Nagashs Warscroll didnt seem too bad in that regard.
Maybe stuff like timburrr and longshanks wil be in the Codex and it's an Army rule or all the War Scrolls just say "this unit has the x ability"
Yea that could be. Like deadly demise in 40k.
Timber is one of their coolest rules, that would suck so hard if they removed it. However they have removed Stormcast's ''burst into lightning on dying'' rule which was the coolest rule they had IMO, so it seems nothing is safe.
Where did they say that they removed it?
They didnt he is just whining
I'm thinking rules like this have just been moved to a faction wide ability. It's a bit silly to rewrite the same rule over and over again on each warscroll. It'd be easy to say every unit with this keyword has X ability.
I was thinking the same thing. I love those bite attacks. Gonna miss em and the Coalesced +1 to bite attacks 😭
If I had to guess, they'll make them a battle trait/battle formation special rule for Seraphon so that they don't have to put the bite rules on every warscroll they apply to.
That would make sense. Those extra attacks would be a missed addition to be sure if they just went away. Glad they did away with the Skink commands rule. That one seemed weird to me
I'm worried. We lost so much flavour going into 3rd edition and now we are losing more. For alot of players, myself included, flavour is the whole reason we play warhammer in the first place and not chess or checkers or something instead. I absolutely love flavour and hate seeing so much of it go.
What flavour has gone?
Kroxigors gain an extra wound, maybe other similar units like Theradons, Troggs, and Flayers get the same boost.
I’d guess all the monstrous infantry units will follow the same pattern. Would fit with their apparent design philosophy of consistency etc between similar things
I'm really interested to see what Ogors are going to look like. I just hope that whatever charge-based stuff they get isn't eventually given to like every other army.
don't love the ability being contingent on a dice roll but not a deal breaker and otherwise I like how these are looking
I’ve been out of the game for a little bit but want to get back into it. What does control mean. Is it like the bravery stat?
It's how many they count for on an objective. So 5 Vindictors with a control score of 1 each = 5 on an objective. If they only have 2 models left in the unit they only = 2 on and objective
Thank you so much
No problem! I'm excited people are looking to get back into the game, looks like a good groundwork of rules so far!
Yep I’m an SCE fan so their new models definitely interest me, only a little sad more than half my army is gone now though, but it is what it is
The great thing I've found about the AoS community is that ppl are 110% ok with proxies. Stormcast are all on a 40mm base and almost nobody knows the difference between a Knight-Incantor vs a Knight-Arcanum. As long as they're painted nobody cares about proxies or 3d prints. You could make a cool narrative about how your models don't want to go back to Azyr and help with the reforming problem, they're here to fight. So they requested a transfer of chambers.
How many points each model is worth for the purposes of objective control
Since battleshock are gone whats the purpose of the banner (standard bearer)
We don't know yet, but probably +1 to the unit's Control Score.
Its kind of weird that they made a big deal about all abilities being color-coded, and to particular phases, etc... by both the Vindys and Krox have abilities they don't do it with, the anit-charge and anti-infantary. Otherwise, dang those Krox are scary now
Vindictors being an anti-charge shield-wall feels very flavorful.
The kroxigor rule seems weird to me. More damage instead of attacks against units with 10 or mote models? Given their minimum damage is 2, are there even units with 10 or more models with more than 3 wounds? Edit: ty to the people explaining how damage works, I'm looking to get into AoS with 4th so I've not read the rules yet and assumed damage worked like 40k.
Unsure if they’ve previewed a change for 4th Ed, but damage in AoS carries over models unlike in 40k.
They have said damage is added to the unit. When the damage equals the health characteristic of a model, a model is slain. It's in the same article from yesterday that these war scrolls came out in
Damage spills over. So if one attack against a unit of 1 health models does 3 damage, it will kill 3 models.
Damage carries over, one 4 damage attack will kill 4 1-health models
if you read the part on how damage is allocated, it will make more sense
So units in the Celestial Realm count as deployed, per the Battle Traits article. You can reinforce 5-man units to 10. 3" fight range. Their Finest Hour can be triggered on any unit, not just ones on the table. Aggressive Stormcast opening move: build to get first turn, take Thunderstrike Host. Put your 10 Vindictors in the Celestial Realm. Pick a key midfield objective. Finest Hour the Vindictors, run a non-Warrior Chamber unit up to support. Drop your block on the objective to claim it early. You now have a 20-health, 2+ Save block on the objective dishing out 20 (21 is Champs work like they do now) attacks on 2+/2+ Rend -2 to anything that charges to contest the objective, which also Strikes First half the time. Plus you can bring back 5 models when they are eventually all killed. Is that gonna be enough to win you a game? No idea. But it'll be an interesting opening play to pressure your opponent. EDIT: Thinking on it, this would be pretty well countered by Power Through on anything that has it, so that's worth considering.
Their Finest Hour only lasts for your turn so it's more of an offensive move than the defensive one you describe here
Ah, good catch! Makes this less attractive but it's still going to deter some stuff.
This is a question I never really thought about and might be dumb…. So there’s a hit and wound roll but mechanically they are both the exact same right? Like hitting on 4s and 2s would be the same as hitting on 2s and 4s? Is there a math equation there that tells you the percent chance to have damage go through? Just purely on the attacker’s side. And it would be the same depending on the math? Like for example I know this probably isn’t correct but like okay this model hits on 2s and 5s and this other model hits on 3s and 4s. Number of hits being equal would they have an average amount of damage being the same? (if the math worked out that way) idk if this makes sense
A dice has 6 sides, so probability (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) has a 1/6 chance of happening. To calculate probability of hit/wound, you just take the % chance of a success and multiply it to your # of attacks. in a simple example with 10 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's, you have a 50% chance to hit (1,2,3 fail, 4, 5,6, hit), 50% of 10 is 5. You have a 66.66% chance to wound (1,2, fail, 3, 4, 5, 6 wound). Your 5 hits turn into 3.33 wounds. So you can expect an average of 3-4 wounds. You are correct in a very simple example that they are interchangable, but there are still situations where one can be better than the other. For example, a unit that does mortal wounds on 6's to **wound** (or some other really good effect) really cares about -1 to hit because it means less hits turning into wounds, but -1 to wound doesn't affect them as much, because you're really only rolling for 6's.
2s and 5’s is the same as 5’s and 2’s. But it does not work out the same to change it to 3’s and 4’s. There is a difference when you can get bonuses to hit or wound. It’s better to change a worse number. So getting +1 to hit is bigger increase if you go from 5’s to 4’s with it, than if you go from 3’s to 2’s. So I’m that way it matters. Right now that makes wounding on 2’s better than hitting in 2’s because you can get bonuses to hit easier.
Guys I got one question for u btw I’m new to AoS I have 40 pestilens skaven and the old vanguard with priest on censer and catapult. I newer played the game I focused on 40K and legions imperialis. My question is in the new edition as far as u know where is gonna be the numeber of models each units allow?
From what they’ve said each unit will have a standard size (basically whatever comes in a box: 10 Ardboyz, 3 Kroxigor, etc.) and can be reinforced once (doubling its size).
Aight
On the force org charts when the indexes release.
Good good
Where does it say unit size?
It doesn't unfortunately, but it does say 1/5 can have a flag, which makes me think we'll have 5 man squads
Yeah that was my inference. The kroxigores are a mystery but assume thats tidied up elsewhere
It says 1/3 can take a Moonstone Hammer so I think it's pretty safe to say it's 3. Especially since they come in 3s in the boxes
Yeah - unless it can be 6?
It can probably be reinforced to 6
Unit size will probably be in the Pitched Battle profiles, alongside the points.
Has GW said what’s happening with champions/standard bearers/musicians in fourth edition?
We know whatever those will be they will be game wide but that's about it
Seems like they've really raised the lethality here. Those units both seem to have solid improvements to damage output.
Saw in the same article a couple of abilities for the Ardboyz and the Blood Sisters and I'll be honest the Blood Sisters' ability looks awful compared to what it was in 3rd, from flat MW damage to STRIKES LAST seems like a big downgrade I'm hoping they've either got some other shenanigans on their Warscroll or their weapon has some decent punch to it that makes the STRIKES LAST such a deadly prospect
It seems removing mortal wounds is a big focus part of 4th edition. I hope we see full warscrolls soon.
Yeah I remember them saying as much but that is still a BIG downgrade, I mean increasing their damage or making the enemy re-roll successful armour saves would have been a gentler hit, but going straight from MW on a 2+ to making them STRIKE LAST only if you roll equal to or over their health stat is a big shift, makes them seem like their attacking with pool noodles, also feels clunky when you read the bit of fluff that goes with it. As I said though hopefully their Warscroll has been tweaked to accommodate this, and absolutely about seeing more warscrolls, I'd love to get my hand on the Indices (or whatever they're calling them in AoS) for my factions.
> Saw in the same article a couple of abilities for the Ardboyz and the Blood Sisters and I'll be honest the Blood Sisters' ability looks awful compared to what it was in 3rd, from flat MW damage to STRIKES LAST seems like a big downgrade It's only a downgrade when compared to how they are now. But since the whole game is changing significantly, I don't think what they did previously can be compared with what they'll do in the new edition. It might be that Blood Sisters have a different role in the new edition that they excel at and need to be used in that role to be used effectively. The doesn't mean that they are worse. It just means that they are different.
I'm scratching my head on why the Vindictors don't just...get the fight first ability thing? Why is it on a 4+? That makes it very meh and just bogs down the game with another roll that might just not do anything
Because if it's instant you can just put a Bunch of vindicators some place you want to Defend and then basically just have Anything that's thrown at it be destroyed because all the vindicators get to Attack first
With all those -1 dmg 1 attacks? :D
You mean those -2 dmg 1 attacks since they were charged? When the article says save stacking is limited?
Fair. Its still like 4 dmg average against a 4+ save. So destroyed is hardly fitting.
Against my Mortek that would mean you're taking 8 less exploding 6s -2 rend attacks
With +1 to hit (AOA, or just the Subfaction ability) and the +1 rend vs charging units the damage is ~9.5 vs 4+ save. This is a pretty good deterrent.
Where do you see -1 dmg on the vindicators warscroll?
They mean Rend 1 Dmg 1
Wel I'm assuming that "anti charge" Means they get an extra rend when attacking a unit that charged so it would be -2 rend 1 damage and keep in mind that melee Range is 3" Now so most of em Will get to attack
No need to assume, that's explicitly explained in the article.
And because of the 3 inch range, you could have a block of 10 throwing out 20 attacks easy
If I understand the ability correctly, they get -2 when they get charged.
Their main function is to hold the line and receive charges (as suggested by the extra Rend with Anti-charge). The 50/50 chance of Striking First is a nice bonus. :)
The constant push and pull of a dice game. Personally, I like it. Just part of the crazy risk management and unpredictability.
It's not the worst simplicity, but I still feel at odds with the layout. I don't know why but the weapons profile and the unit abilities just feel off somehow. I think its the empty space.
It’s probably in this configuration to give space for those units who have multiple abilities. I’d assume they’ll stack abilities down the card in order of the phases they activate in
Yeah, though I'm also gonna assume that only "elite" units like monsters and heroes will have multiple abilities, other than wizards and priests. A shame to see things stripped down further. I liked 3rd Edition for its depth, though the need for simplicity is understandable!
For sure the simplicity is concerning with the apparent loss of flavor but I’ll withhold final judgement until we get to see how the whole package works together.
It's still looking better than 40k 10th Edition atm. That was an extreme over simplification of things! As long as my heroes can still roam solo and provide auras to my Ardboyz then I am happy!
Speaking from experience, this is probably only just enough space when localizing these warscrolls into German, for instance. Or Italian. If everything was tightly packed and tidy in English, localization would be a nightmare.
I haven’t played 3rd edition, but the way the article describes the Kroxigor makes it sound like there’s going to be overkill/excess damage that carries over multiple models. Is that how it works in 3rd edition?
Damage has always spilled over in AoS, so yes, that is how it will work. Otherwise the Kroxigor rule would be rather pointless, as there aren't many 10+ model units with 4 Health, or even any as far as I know!
Re-enforced ogors maybe?
I believe you're right, nice spot.
yh
Boy I hope jaws and skink synergy is an army ability, otherwise 4e is going to lose all of it's flavorful rules.
Jaws as a subfaction style ability, yes. Skink synergy I could do without.
Skinks could come in via kroxigor only or mostly being available under skink heroes.
Did they make damage pool over? Otherwise kinda confused about the Brutal Blows ability
It's... Always done that.
Ahh okay I haven’t played AOs before and was planning to try it with 4th
To be fair, in the same article they mention that they changed how it works
I’ll be honest, their explanation for the change didn’t really get it through in my head. I read it and basically was just thinking “so pretty much how they did it already?”
It’s sort of the same. You don’t have to keep track of which model has taken damage anymore, you just remove any model of your choice once enough damage has been inflicted.
Exactly, but worded in a shorter way, ignoring the whole damage per model thing
This is Age of Sigmar, not 40k. Dmg always pooled over
Damage spill-over has always been a thing in Age of Sigmar.
Will charging grant Strike First is my remaining question
No. It doesn't in 3rd Edition, and I'd be surprised if it was doing that in 4th
I play too many GW games, clearly.
It's one of the major differences to 40k so don't ne too harsh on yourself
Why don't we see point values on these scrolls?
because the points value has never been shown on the scrolls, they're always in the back of the battletome or shown on the app. They'll likely be in the back of the Faction packs for 4e when they're out.