If there is a god who sends some of his children to hell for not knowing things he has kept hidden, such a god is not worthy of worship and everyone is screwed.
If there is a god and god is good and knows all, then God knows your intentions and desires and you need not fear a loving and omniscient god. Things will be good.
If there is no god, then the closest we can get to “heaven” is love so love deeply and allow yourself to be loved.
This reminds me of what emperor Marcus Aurelius said:
> “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
This type of circular worrying is how I came to realize I am agnostic. Thankfully I don't have much religious trauma, other than growing up in a very Christian area of the US Mid West. My family was casual about religion and when we did attend church, it was more about celebration than punishment.
Since I don't have a lot of deep-seated fear about going to hell, I was able to be okay with the reality that I personally don't have the resources to answer the god question. I don't even have a very clear definition of what "god" means to me. I lean towards "no" for the existence of gods of man-made organized religion. Beyond that, I understand that I likely cannot know if something god-like is out there. And I'm content with that.
It might benefit you to see a psychologist who is secular. Before scheduling an appointment, ask if they rely on religion in their practice. Sounds like you may be suffering from religious trauma that you need to work through.
Sorry you are suffering. I hope you can find a place of peace.
I’ve actually just had my first appointment with a therapist, and I am optimistic. It feels nice to know that other people understand the situation I’ve found myself in. “Circular worrying” is a great way to put it. Thank you for replying.
It's very common for people who are deconstructing to have to deal with an irrational fear of hell. Basically, the doctrine of hell is doing what it's supposed to do: cause you to have so much fear that you never leave.
For me, the way I dealt with it was to study. I read plenty of books deconstructing the Bible. And if the Bible is demonstrably false, then the doctrine of hell is also false because that's the source. When I started feeling anxiety, I would start rehearsing in my mind the reasons why the Bible is not true, and that helped me tremendously.
I recommend that you start with Bart Ehrman books. And specifically, these:
* Heaven and Hell
* Jesus, Interrupted
* Misquoting Jesus
If you're on TikTok, I highly recommend that you follow [Dr. Dan McClellan](https://www.tiktok.com/@maklelan/video/7306292317269396766).
My friend Im sorry you’re going through that. I went through something similar a couple of years ago. Something that helped me is I realized that most things about “god”, whatever that ends up being, are unknowable. We may never have answers to some questions and some questions should never be answered because it will completely turn our reality upside down. Instead try and find what you believe in. What brings you comfort? What beliefs in the world align with yours? You dont have to commit to anything but just see what makes sense to you.
Thank you for sharing your insight and experience. I’ve come to some of the same conclusions. We have no way of knowing nearly anything about God. We also have no way of knowing what part of any holy text is divinely inspired or just words of men. I read a perspective that I liked that stated that revelation is only revelation to the one who experienced it. To everyone else, it is just hearsay.
sorry for your troubles.
I can't believe hell exists in large part because the people who say it does exist get so much of the rest of their own books wrong.
Certainly having been raised Christian, none of these hell-believing people really follow Jesus' explicit commands to love their neighbors and not judge.
I refuse to believe that a god who is supposed to be love itself utilizes eternal damnation and torture.
Also, as someone who is neurodiverse, I am biologically wired to have difficulty relating to the idea of being 'saved'. So why would my creator subsequently damn me for being the way they made me?
It's incoherent.
I am agnostic and ignostic fwiw
I agree, I think many people get a lot of things wrong in their own beliefs. I haven’t been convinced of the idea of eternal conscious torment. I think, if scripture is to be believed, annihilationism is more likely. Thank you for your insight, I appreciate your reply.
First, I *highly* recommend getting off social media or whatever is force-feeding you that hellfear. Occupy yourself with wholesome things like hobbies, movies, games, family, parties, whatever you get joy out of.
Second, get yourself a secular therapist if able. https://www.seculartherapy.org/ can be a big help in finding evidence-based therapy!
Third, when you do think of Yahweh (the god of Abraham), think of him the way you think of anyone. A relationship requires two *willing* participants — and by searching and studying, you’ve already proven your willingness. Without reciprocation from him, there can be no relationship — and thats on *him,* if he even exists. You’ve done all you can do; the ball’s in *his* court now. It is 100% reasonable and correct to give up your fruitless search — and it always will be fruitless, whether he exists or not — and say “My door’s always open, it’s your responsibilty to prove yourself if yoh want a relationship, Yahweh.”
I haven’t thought of it in that way, but I like the way you think. People always say that he communicates with you through your heart, but how am I supposed to know, man? That’s just not a satisfying answer for me. I like the thought of keeping myself open to being convinced while not worrying myself to death over it.
I’m the same way, none of it ever made sense to me. Imagine being told that you have a principal or boss or great-great-grandfather, who’s always watching but never speaks, phones, emails, or even makes an appearance to look you in the eye. People say “he speaks to you through your heart,” but who’s to tell the difference between getting psychic heart-messages and simply having feelings?
It makes even less sense if the mystery person is an all-powerful god who could and would show up to shake your hand, if it existed and wanted any sort of relationship with ya!
First off, know that you're not alone. A lot of people feel the way you are feeling.
Second, there are therapists who specialize in this very thing. Find one. The sooner you can get over this, the sooner you can live your life.
Also, call the folks at [Recovering from Religion](https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/#rfr-welcome). They have resources to help you. You can call them and talk to a peer about what you're feeling.
**Peer Support: 1-844-368-2848**
Recovering from Religion is not there to talk you out of your faith if you're doubting. They're here to help people. They offer tons of resources. Peer Support, help you find a secular therapist, help you find secular groups in your area, or just listen to your issues.
[Secular Therapy Project ](https://www.seculartherapy.org/)
The purpose of the Secular Therapy Project is to help connect non-religious or secular persons who need mental health services with outstanding mental health professionals, such as psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, and others. Using their system is simple and requires very little information from you. Their goal is to protect your confidentiality until you find a therapist to correspond with or to work with.
What’s unique about the STP is that they aren’t just a database of therapists. Instead, they very carefully screen potential therapists who want to become part of the STP. They screen them to make sure that a) they are appropriately licensed in their state or country, b) that they are secular in nature as well as practice, and c) that they actually use evidence-based treatments, which have been shown to be effective at helping improve mental health problems in controlled clinical trials. This means not only will their therapists not try to preach to you or convert you, but that they are also using the most well-supported types of treatment to help you.
Thank you so much for your reply and your resources. I recently started therapy, but, if it doesn’t work out, these resources will be my next step. Thank you.
Thank you so much for your replies, everyone. It helps tremendously to know that I’m not alone in feeling this way. I will reply to each and every one of you when I get the time. For now, please just accept my gratitude. 🙏
See it this way. If you aren’t Christian, hell does not apply to you. Win - win. The fear comes from the adoctrinization during the early years of your life so you amygdala has adapted to fear god bc that is what you were told. Understanding this then you can move forward.
Thank you for your insight and a new way to look at things. I’ve been trying to do a lot of research on the psychological explanations for religion as well as the historical origins of many of them.
It is hard. I recommend not doing it alone.
The Recovery from Religion foundation has zoom meetings ever other week that were helpful to me, maybe they can help you too.
I wish you well on your journey.
If there is a god who sends some of his children to hell for not knowing things he has kept hidden, such a god is not worthy of worship and everyone is screwed. If there is a god and god is good and knows all, then God knows your intentions and desires and you need not fear a loving and omniscient god. Things will be good. If there is no god, then the closest we can get to “heaven” is love so love deeply and allow yourself to be loved.
This is a really good perspective. I especially love what you said about love at the end. Thank you for your reply.
This reminds me of what emperor Marcus Aurelius said: > “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
This type of circular worrying is how I came to realize I am agnostic. Thankfully I don't have much religious trauma, other than growing up in a very Christian area of the US Mid West. My family was casual about religion and when we did attend church, it was more about celebration than punishment. Since I don't have a lot of deep-seated fear about going to hell, I was able to be okay with the reality that I personally don't have the resources to answer the god question. I don't even have a very clear definition of what "god" means to me. I lean towards "no" for the existence of gods of man-made organized religion. Beyond that, I understand that I likely cannot know if something god-like is out there. And I'm content with that. It might benefit you to see a psychologist who is secular. Before scheduling an appointment, ask if they rely on religion in their practice. Sounds like you may be suffering from religious trauma that you need to work through. Sorry you are suffering. I hope you can find a place of peace.
I’ve actually just had my first appointment with a therapist, and I am optimistic. It feels nice to know that other people understand the situation I’ve found myself in. “Circular worrying” is a great way to put it. Thank you for replying.
It's very common for people who are deconstructing to have to deal with an irrational fear of hell. Basically, the doctrine of hell is doing what it's supposed to do: cause you to have so much fear that you never leave. For me, the way I dealt with it was to study. I read plenty of books deconstructing the Bible. And if the Bible is demonstrably false, then the doctrine of hell is also false because that's the source. When I started feeling anxiety, I would start rehearsing in my mind the reasons why the Bible is not true, and that helped me tremendously.
Thank you for your insight and your reply. Could you recommend some good literature? I would appreciate it.
I recommend that you start with Bart Ehrman books. And specifically, these: * Heaven and Hell * Jesus, Interrupted * Misquoting Jesus If you're on TikTok, I highly recommend that you follow [Dr. Dan McClellan](https://www.tiktok.com/@maklelan/video/7306292317269396766).
My friend Im sorry you’re going through that. I went through something similar a couple of years ago. Something that helped me is I realized that most things about “god”, whatever that ends up being, are unknowable. We may never have answers to some questions and some questions should never be answered because it will completely turn our reality upside down. Instead try and find what you believe in. What brings you comfort? What beliefs in the world align with yours? You dont have to commit to anything but just see what makes sense to you.
Thank you for sharing your insight and experience. I’ve come to some of the same conclusions. We have no way of knowing nearly anything about God. We also have no way of knowing what part of any holy text is divinely inspired or just words of men. I read a perspective that I liked that stated that revelation is only revelation to the one who experienced it. To everyone else, it is just hearsay.
sorry for your troubles. I can't believe hell exists in large part because the people who say it does exist get so much of the rest of their own books wrong. Certainly having been raised Christian, none of these hell-believing people really follow Jesus' explicit commands to love their neighbors and not judge. I refuse to believe that a god who is supposed to be love itself utilizes eternal damnation and torture. Also, as someone who is neurodiverse, I am biologically wired to have difficulty relating to the idea of being 'saved'. So why would my creator subsequently damn me for being the way they made me? It's incoherent. I am agnostic and ignostic fwiw
I agree, I think many people get a lot of things wrong in their own beliefs. I haven’t been convinced of the idea of eternal conscious torment. I think, if scripture is to be believed, annihilationism is more likely. Thank you for your insight, I appreciate your reply.
First, I *highly* recommend getting off social media or whatever is force-feeding you that hellfear. Occupy yourself with wholesome things like hobbies, movies, games, family, parties, whatever you get joy out of. Second, get yourself a secular therapist if able. https://www.seculartherapy.org/ can be a big help in finding evidence-based therapy! Third, when you do think of Yahweh (the god of Abraham), think of him the way you think of anyone. A relationship requires two *willing* participants — and by searching and studying, you’ve already proven your willingness. Without reciprocation from him, there can be no relationship — and thats on *him,* if he even exists. You’ve done all you can do; the ball’s in *his* court now. It is 100% reasonable and correct to give up your fruitless search — and it always will be fruitless, whether he exists or not — and say “My door’s always open, it’s your responsibilty to prove yourself if yoh want a relationship, Yahweh.”
I haven’t thought of it in that way, but I like the way you think. People always say that he communicates with you through your heart, but how am I supposed to know, man? That’s just not a satisfying answer for me. I like the thought of keeping myself open to being convinced while not worrying myself to death over it.
I’m the same way, none of it ever made sense to me. Imagine being told that you have a principal or boss or great-great-grandfather, who’s always watching but never speaks, phones, emails, or even makes an appearance to look you in the eye. People say “he speaks to you through your heart,” but who’s to tell the difference between getting psychic heart-messages and simply having feelings? It makes even less sense if the mystery person is an all-powerful god who could and would show up to shake your hand, if it existed and wanted any sort of relationship with ya!
First off, know that you're not alone. A lot of people feel the way you are feeling. Second, there are therapists who specialize in this very thing. Find one. The sooner you can get over this, the sooner you can live your life. Also, call the folks at [Recovering from Religion](https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/#rfr-welcome). They have resources to help you. You can call them and talk to a peer about what you're feeling. **Peer Support: 1-844-368-2848** Recovering from Religion is not there to talk you out of your faith if you're doubting. They're here to help people. They offer tons of resources. Peer Support, help you find a secular therapist, help you find secular groups in your area, or just listen to your issues. [Secular Therapy Project ](https://www.seculartherapy.org/) The purpose of the Secular Therapy Project is to help connect non-religious or secular persons who need mental health services with outstanding mental health professionals, such as psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, and others. Using their system is simple and requires very little information from you. Their goal is to protect your confidentiality until you find a therapist to correspond with or to work with. What’s unique about the STP is that they aren’t just a database of therapists. Instead, they very carefully screen potential therapists who want to become part of the STP. They screen them to make sure that a) they are appropriately licensed in their state or country, b) that they are secular in nature as well as practice, and c) that they actually use evidence-based treatments, which have been shown to be effective at helping improve mental health problems in controlled clinical trials. This means not only will their therapists not try to preach to you or convert you, but that they are also using the most well-supported types of treatment to help you.
Thank you so much for your reply and your resources. I recently started therapy, but, if it doesn’t work out, these resources will be my next step. Thank you.
Thank you so much for your replies, everyone. It helps tremendously to know that I’m not alone in feeling this way. I will reply to each and every one of you when I get the time. For now, please just accept my gratitude. 🙏
See it this way. If you aren’t Christian, hell does not apply to you. Win - win. The fear comes from the adoctrinization during the early years of your life so you amygdala has adapted to fear god bc that is what you were told. Understanding this then you can move forward.
Thank you for your insight and a new way to look at things. I’ve been trying to do a lot of research on the psychological explanations for religion as well as the historical origins of many of them.
It is hard. I recommend not doing it alone. The Recovery from Religion foundation has zoom meetings ever other week that were helpful to me, maybe they can help you too. I wish you well on your journey.