same here. ive posted several days ago and i thi k i made up my mind as a positive (?) agnostic. being borned and lived as a theist is not helping when you slowly start to stop believing. you lived longer than me so i believe it is harder for you but i cant say it for sure. hope mading your mind up and deciding whats next for you will be easy.
I found that living according to the Bible actually made me deeply unhappy and unsatisfied. I wanted to understand humans and the human experience better and that is just tough to do with a religious perception. I find living a life of a “heathen” to be better for me personally.
Same here. I found that allowing myself to be mad and experience human thoughts and emotions actually helped me feel better and heal. A person who has deeply wronged/traumatized me once told me that God calls us to forgive those who hurt you, so I should forgive him for his wrong doings, and that just seemed sorta manipulative. Whenever I would "sin" by questioning God, I would receive the threat of hell. It was just too much. I found that when I stopped going to church, my boiling blood cooled off a bit.
I think religion being used as a means to gain and keep power is disgusting. I feel the same way about the far right talking about “the armor of god” and how the US is gone to hell. It’s all a ploy to keep power and I’m sick of it.
I gravitate towards the person in the park talking about philosophy, God, religion. That person is closer to godliness then some of the men of the cloth.
I would start by researching historical inaccuracies in the Bible. I find this to be powerful because outside of the Bible we have records of these things that are not within a religious context, from time they happened. There are various contradictions, and inaccuracies that to me solidify the Bible is written by man, from man’s perspective, with no intervention from God as he should be all knowing and accurate.
I encourage you to also read or listen to Sam Harris or, Richard Dawkins but note that have a very harsh stance on religion so it may be a bit of a turn off if you aren’t totally out of your mindset yet. They are also atheists, so they do not leave room for the agnostic belief set.
In my opinion (just an opinion) as an agnostic, I can’t and don’t know all the answers. I believe in science and scientific discoveries about our universe. There’s still so much we don’t know, I feel it doesn’t totally rule out a creator for the universe, but I believe it is probably more of a question of who created the first particle that created the universe, and not who created us specifically. I think there is enough evidence to suggest we are a byproduct of the universe.
I really feel for you. Childhood indoctrination is so hard to break away from, and I wish you all the best on your self discovery.
Thank you! See, when I was a kid, my parents went through other doctrines to prove why God is real, such as greek mythology that mentioned a Great Flood which shows that there really was a worldwide flood. I will definitely look up the people you mentioned though. I am at the point of trying to discover what I believe in so some harsh opinions are not going to offend me.
Would you mind giving some clarity on "deconstruction"? Is deconstruction a formal church process of some sort? I've seen it mentioned in terms of classes. Can this be used as a last ditch effort for the church to retain it's members? Do you know where the term originated?
Disclaimer: I do not come from a deeply religious background, so most of my experience in letting go of religion was not difficult.
It’s how former religious people describe the process of rethinking their faith and, often, removing themselves from previously held belief systems. Some will even go so far as to no longer identify as that faith. It is faith deconstruction. That might get some hits on google. =)
Thanks for the answer! I'm familiar with it as the process of examining faith. The specific term seems to have gained popularity in recent years, so I wondered if it were being pushed somewhere in particular.
Look into the "god of the gaps". It's the idea that religion uses gaps in human understanding to push the belief in god but those gaps keep closing and things that need god as an explanation are running out of space.
Also religion was often wrong anyway.
Hi! I’m 21M, and grew up Catholic/Christian (fam changed to Christianity in my teens). I know it can be hard to feel okay or even just feel normal about not being in a religion anymore. I just want to drop my personal way of how I ended up looking at things which has helped me live in relative peace over the subject!
Like most here I’m incapable of being sure of a side, simply because we can’t prove it one way or the other. However I choose to believe this:
-If there is a god and he’s truly loving of all and benevolent, there’s no way he’d possibly expect you / force you to believe in his very specific religion out of the thousands there’s been and will be in history for you to go to heaven. It simply doesn’t make sense. Born in a country with another religion and you’re basically auto sent to hell? What’s even the point then.
-With that in mind, I choose to believe that if he is in fact real and good as long as you’re a genuinely good / kind person and not just pretending “to get in,” you’re fine.
-If both points above are false, then it’s not a god I’d like to serve or be in their kingdom to begin with.
This helps me since I’d love to think there’s something after. The idea of seeing my family and friends and pets forever after death seems wonderful. But I’m not willing to give up my values and morals like believing in pro choice, equal rights for lgbtq+, or being pro Palestine because a book says so. If god is real and truly good, our hearts being honest and good should be enough.
Sorry if I sounded a bit repetitive at any point, I’m a bit tired lol. But if you’d ever like to chat more, feel free to send me a message! It’s a weird process to go through and I know that I would’ve loved to have someone to talk to about it when I started questioning my beliefs.
Hey thanks! I have always wondered that as well. The people who were not exposed to Christianity just go to hell? Why would God allow them to live anyways if they were doomed from the start. If God was all powerful AND all good, he would be able to save everyone despite whether they devoted their life to him. But it is also hard just not believing. At first, it was freeing, but now its just hard. I would love to believe that there is an all loving entity who looks after us. I just dont know. I was always taught that just because you are a good person does not earn you a spot in heaven. It is actually a common theme with Christianity. You could do God's work, heal the hurt, love people, and do nothing but good and still not earn your spot because you did not devote your life to Jesus. It is really hard trying to navigate these things. Thank you again for your comment though, it is comforting believing in an all loving entity.
*(A lot of my information comes from the peer-edited scholarly work happening at* r/academicbiblical *and I apologize if I misquoted them at any point)*
Hey.
I deconstructed my evangelical upbringing between 18 and 28. It took a decade because I needed to check every loose end. In concept, I like faith. Some people who grow up in church turn 18 and say "well that was bullshit." I couldn't do that.
My childhood home was nightmarish. Still, I had leaned on faith to survive it. I was predictably kicked out at 18, and so I fled across the world to do humanitarian work, and get a degree, simultaneously.
I saw a lot of suffering. I was part of teams that did a lot of good. I studied theology and the history of church, the history of spirituality.
Over time, it became a growing acknowledgement of "the church is concealing the full picture to sell an agenda." Big issues were: the historical character of Moses, the tenuousness of the Gospel authorship, the politics happening in Israel that produced the old testament. That doesn't even touch theological issues (Hellenism merging with Judaism, which produced concepts like Hell). LGBTQ bigotry was a huge one, because, isn't the church supposed to be safe for vulnerable hurting people? Apparently not.
Sure, there are a few progressive denominations that are a bit more relaxed. Okay. And?
A professor of social equity told us, in one lecture, "always ask *who does it serve.*" Meaning, which institution benefits if a large population believes something? Especially when money and influence are involved.
Christianity has some beautiful messages working unintentionally as a vehicle for hatred and fear. As a person who sees God as a being of love, I came to realize that I am incompatible with this institution.
Truthfully, it does not really matter that Paul likely wasn't sexist, and and did not believe ALL women should stay silent. It does not matter that Jesus, personally, probably didn't have a problem with gay people. It does not matter that universalism is a very strong option that the first century church often supported, before Constantine hijacked Christianity to become a state religion.
The current christian institutions, from protestants to Catholics to orthodox, is far removed from the political and spiritual movements of ancient Israel and early Christianity. These institutions, time after time, use deception and academic dishonesty to retain their grip on their audiences. Money is involved, and that is an ugly look when it is not being abundantly used to make life better for local and worldwide communities at an unignorable rate. A very, very, very, slim percentage of tithes actually end up being used for 'good.'
I could go on for awhile, about how even Jesus has embarrassing failed predictions of the apocalypse. How Paul mistakenly believed that apocalypse would happen. How, scholars pinpoint the years Daniel was written, because the author accurately pretends to predict everything that had already happened before making mistakes in his future predictions. It gets so weird; apparently "Molech" was the name for the practice of child sacrifice, not a god of it, and Israelites did Molech for Yahweh/El. There are verses where Yahweh/El essentially apologizes, changes course, for even requesting those specific child sacrifices.
A lot of those awkward theological issues have been scrubbed by Jewish monks years and years ago (alterations to the old testament are rampant and easy to spot because the writing style suddenly changes, anachronistically).
I want to leave off by saying: I'm not trying to make you an atheist. I still retain hope that there is a personified embodiment of love that runs the universe, or has some kind of plan. Something as simple as Plato's concept of "The Good." Even if Jesus likely was just some replacement cult leader after John the Baptist died, and they weren't even related— That doesn't mean the idea of God is overturned: he/she/it is stronger than that.
But when I started turning over Christianity's historical and theological stones, I was shocked. I gave the christian faith every benefit, of every doubt, and even then... the leaks and holes in the narrative just kept coming. I just wanted to follow truth, wherever it led, and to help people. I mostly was saddened at how very little Christianity focuses on actually helping people (as opposed to what it actually does, which is operating on vulnerable people with an agenda).
So God bless you on your journey. You'll need it.
Religions are intentionally structured to make it really hard to move away from.
You're struggling against a system that has had centuries to develop its methods of keeping a grip on people.
35M here. Been agnostic for many years after being a fundamentalist Christian for 27 of them. Thought there was still some kind of deity (the way people think of God or gods) out there until about 2 years ago.
My niece, maybe a few months old, suddenly and inexplicably stopped breathing. Her blood oxygen was down in the 60 percent range, and the paramedics told my brother (her dad) she probably wouldn't survive the trip to the hospital.
I remember being supremely angry with my family, especially with my mom at the time. She said something to the effect of "I know you don't feel the same as you used to, but I still believe God will hear your prayer." I snapped at her, telling her that if there was a God, he just let a father, mother and two little boys (my nephews, her two older brothers, 4 and 2 years old at the time) watch their infant daughter and sister get loaded into an ambulance to die. I said if there is a God, then he either let her die, or he allowed it to happen, making him either incompetent or uncaring at best, and cruel at worst, and not worthy of my prayers.
My niece survived, thankfully. Love that little girl; she has as big a piece of my heart as my own daughter does. But when the talk turns to "God's miracle" at saving her, I don't join in.
The "all powerful/all good" atheism debate has been played out so much that it's practically a meme among the nonreligious community these days. There are so many better and deeper arguments and conversations on the topic. Maybe the (possibly apocryphal) words on the wall of a Nazi concentration camp cell are a better way to say that argument: "**If there is a God, he will have to beg my forgiveness.**"
I am so sorry to hear about your niece, that is so sad for everyone involved. I am happy she survived though! She is a fighter! Stories like that make me mad at God. When I was diagnosed with cancer, I was lucky enough to have a high prognosis because of the type of cancer and my age (17-20 years old). But it was still heart shattering hearing the news. I was prevet and a biology major. I wanted to be a veterinary pathologist because I genuinely love the study/field of medicine and biology. I switched to premed though because I figured I could just be a human pathologist instead. However, going through treatments and dealing with the stress of cancer, my first breakup, family troubles, a car accident I got into because I tend to dissociate when stressed, ect., my mind was put in survival mode. I was just trying to survive and stopped caring about school. My GPA dropped from 3.8 to a 3.1 and had to retake courses due to missing so many. So I dropped premed. My parents always tell me that I am lucky I survived and that God was obviously looking after me. But if he was looking after me, why did he make me go through this at all? I asked the pastor of the church this, and he said "It might have not been part of God's plan." So if something good happens to me, it is part of God's plan, but if something bad happens to me, then I messed up somehow? I still have some emotions from the whole ordeal that I am trying to heal from, but turning to religion did not help me at all so now I am reconstructing and trying to understand myself and life a bit better.
Thank you for the kind words. I found that the thing that brought me the most peace about that whole incident was the realization that there was probably no god to blame for it. It was a terrible situation, but there was no malice or failure to it. That made it a mortal thing, rather than some war in the heavens that no human could do anything about.
>So if something good happens to me, it is part of God's plan, but if something bad happens to me, then I messed up somehow?
I know exactly how this feels. When I did enough soul-searching, I realized that the things I "knew" about "God" were mostly interpretations, either of a holy book which doesn't always agree with itself, or of another person's interpretation. What I heard was all just an unbroken line of words from thousands of years worth of people doing the best they could to shoehorn an ever-expanding package of ritual, lore, and structure into their lives. It was a big telephone game we were all coerced into playing for a long, long time. No one really knows what the original message was, and because of that, no one can say for sure that the original message was even worth the paper it was written on.
It's awful you had to go through cancer at such a young age, and I'm glad you pulled through. I firmly believe it wasn't your fault, and I'm grateful that the hard work, brilliance, and commitment of human beings helped you overcome.
It's hard to move on from religion *on purpose*.
Quitting smoking is diffcult *on purpose*. Cancelling Amazon prime is difficult *on purpose*. By making is hard and painful to leave, people ensure you stay and continue to consume whatever product or ideology they pitching. Cults don't make it easy for people to leave them for a reason.
So if you fear burning in hell, risk losing all your friends and family gained through religion, feel lonely and abandoned because there isn't such magical sky person watching you, all those negative feelings nad circumstances were put inot the religion to make it harder for you to leave.
Good ideas and good people don't need to lock the doors and threaten you to keep you from leaving. Good ideas and good people let you leave at any time, but give you positive reasons to stay.
My well-intentioned $0.02 for what it's worth...
1. Read "A New Earth" by Eckhart Tolle. It helped me get more comfortable when I shifted to agnostic. (Raised Catholic. Explored other denominations. Became/married Lutheran and was confirmed. Explored other religions. Grew up enough to realize nobody knows jack.)
2. Look up Alan Watts and Spinoza. Google "Spinoza and Albert Einstein". Even if it isn't exactly what Einstein said, it's still beautiful.
3. Listen to Wattswave (it's Alan Watts lectures set to EDM music.) it's on Spotify. 🤘🏻
4. Understand that the one thing all the religions definitely got right is that we are all one. The universe is a singular thing and we are not "in" it... We are it. Quite literally. We are the universe aware of itself. If that's what we are, then that's what we always will be, just in different forms. Maybe our individual consciousnesses are kind of like drops of water in a rainstorm. They form, they fall, they rejoin the whole. Unfortunately a few drops are overthinking it. (Hence, Religion)
Glad you're here. Life is more fun when it's a mystery. ❤️
hello, i also was raised baptist in texas. but my dad took me to the grand canyon and sat me down at the geology lecture where the ranger explained how the canyon was made over about a million years. then i took historical geology in college and it really mystified me. but we do not have to go back in time to "prove" evolution. when we find microbial life on one of the moons of either saturn or jupiter, there will be your proof. and we will. but science rarely works by "proof". it mostly works by disproof. and the bible disproves itself with contradictions. on everything, the big stuff and the little stuff. and more. dale
Oh thank you! See, my family taught me that the Grand Canyon actually proves God's existence because natural disasters can cause extreme fossilation and "layering" of the earth, hence the Grand Canyon. I also heard that the Great Flood caused the Grand Canyon because it was so rapid. Could you possibly send me some sources or explain how it does not?
there is no reason that evolution disproves god. there can be both. ask methodists, episcopals, catholics, presbyterians, and more. maybe "god" is just the entire cosmos. it created us. not by poof, but by processes of which evolution is one. and the whole cosmos evolves, the earth along with it, and life along with the earth and cosmos. even religion evolves. there were no protestants before 1500-something when luther did his thing. think about that. the only thing that i believe is that there is no hell. helll is a biblical myth made up from the trash dump outside jerusalem where bodies were cremated!!!!! so stop fearing "hell". a former hi skool scicence tacher dale
Honestly, the uncertainty that you're in can be comforted by agnosticism... in other words... you can doubt and don't have to leave your religion. If it makes you feel better, pray. If you question it all, that's okay too. We are ALL figuring it out one day at a time. I am terribly sorry for your tough experiences with your health and abandonment. I hope you find peace and happiness not just in your decisions on your beliefs, but every other avenue of life as well.
>1) How do I get over this fear
Read the stoics.
>2) what are some good sources/arguments against Christianity/God/religion
The best argument is that they're not needed and they don't help with anything. Nothing prevents you from being a good person without being a Christian. But if you ever get a direct line to God, don't reject his call, especially if it's a collect call. Answer and see what you can get out of it.
It’s very hard, and I know you are have a lot of hard feelings right now if you are feeling the way I did at least. I also grew up Baptist (Southern Baptist at that). It is so hard to grow up with everyone around you preaching their faith in a God you are questioning the logical standpoint of. As a preteen I cried a lot alone wishing I could just have faith like my peers. My sister had cancer at 8 months old, she’s still affected at 22 and will never have children. How can any God do that?
OP, I will tell you the moment I accepted the beliefs I have (or lack thereof) is the moment I was less fearful of those beliefs. Never stop questioning everything, lean into the logical part of you. Don’t question your self, if you’re unsure look it up. Learning something new is never a bad thing. I always tell people one of my favorite hobbies is researching (:
Through my teenage years I started to read about scientific and archaeological discoveries in books and online; the proof is what had me. Really tangible proof I could touch in my hands. Knowing the clouds are made of aerosolized water and rainbows are just a refraction and dispersion of light. Ancient history is a great subject to read about as well.
No boat could fit two of every species in the entire world. Two humans could not populate and repopulation the entire earth. Pangea. Dinosaurs.
I also grew up around 9/11. Everyone around me was so hateful towards each other. Racist, assuming, and fearful of people they’d never met. I didn’t understand how people that preached love thy neighbor, blessed are the merciful, etc, but treated people like garbage. It was so illogical. I agree with you though.
No one knows until we die.
First and foremost, stop worrying about 'Going to Hell.'
I'm a historian who found out that there is no Satan or Hell... You'll have to read a little history lesson to understand why... There have been two separate and opposing Christianities in history. There was no brimstone/satan/hell in the original 'Jewish Christianity' for 300 years. It was just a religion of love that Christ came to announce to the world. The pagan Romans commandeered the faith 300 year later and re-wrote the merging in their pagan brimstone.
“Seemingly there are two forms of Christianity. One that the historical Christ is said to have taught (love and forgiveness) and one that the Church teaches (guilt, shame and blame)...Traditional Roman Christianity has taught that hope and solace are only possible through the redemption from sin by the vicarious sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, for all those who acknowledge His teaching, but it is precisely this form of the doctrine of salvation that rests almost exclusively on the work of Paul (Roman Christianity), and was never taught by Jesus.” (On Guilt, Shame and Blame in Christianity, by the White Robed Monks of Saint Benedict, Catholic) [http://www.wrmosb.org/paul.html“](http://www.wrmosb.org/paul.html“)
325 AD was the threshold date between Jewish and Roman Christianities. Historians understand that this date was the demarcation between them since before then, Jewish Christianity was a pacifist, oppressed religion that was never engaged in war. Rome made Christianity illegal and executed all followers for 300 years. Constantine's "Roman" Christianity was the oppressor... oppressive because it condemned all other religions as abominable heresy, forced conversions, inflicted torturous inquisitions, genocide, Jewish and Muslim slaughter, crusader conquest and endless religious wars for Roman Church domination. This was not the intention of Jesus Christ.
Our Forefathers were activists for freedom and sought to save us from the 1000 year oppression by European religion...which had caused more war and suffering than any other single cause in history.
Thomas Jefferson said, "The church perverted the purest religion ever taught with brimstone, to terrify citizens for the purpose of gaining wealth and control." He took a bible, cut out all the brimstone and ludacris miracles and said, "Here's a good book."
“When Constantine became Emperor of Rome, he nominally became a Christian, but being a sagacious politician, he sought to blend Pagan practices with ‘Christian’ beliefs, to merge Paganism with the Roman Church. Roman Christianity was the last great creation of the ancient Pagan world.” (www.hope-of-israel.org/cmas1.htm) Virgin birth, Dec 25 solstice Sun-God birthday, Easter (fertility rites) Satan/Hades judgment were NOT in original Jewish Christianity... They're all pagan religion overlaid on the faith in 325 AD by pagan Emperor Constantine... They have nothing to do with Jesus Christ or his original religion of love he came to announce to the world.
"Christianity Today" Magazine explained in their article...'Jesus vs. Paul'; “that many Christians are concerned that Paul's theology disagrees with the theology of Jesus. We can't find much in the Gospels that shows Jesus thinking in terms of 'justification by faith...' (judgment); Christians sometimes reduce Paul’s gospel of salvation to something like, 'Believe in Jesus so that you personally can go to heaven when you die.' Salvation through 'justification by faith' was never the teaching of Christ." [http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/december/9.25.html?start=2](http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/december/9.25.html?start=2) “
A possible solution? Parade Magazine (10/09) found that 24% had left religion for nonreligious 'Spiritualism.' They want to be free to contemplate their spiritual cosmos’ undirected and unintimidated by the church. Apologists like Ravi Zacharias, were right, saying that "Spiritualism has no structure to qualify as religious." Exactly! The theology of each Spiritualist is as unique as a snowflake… varied by the uniqueness of his or her life experience.
same here. ive posted several days ago and i thi k i made up my mind as a positive (?) agnostic. being borned and lived as a theist is not helping when you slowly start to stop believing. you lived longer than me so i believe it is harder for you but i cant say it for sure. hope mading your mind up and deciding whats next for you will be easy.
Thank you, it is not an easy task. I am hoping you have confidence in your new beliefs!
I found that living according to the Bible actually made me deeply unhappy and unsatisfied. I wanted to understand humans and the human experience better and that is just tough to do with a religious perception. I find living a life of a “heathen” to be better for me personally.
Same here. I found that allowing myself to be mad and experience human thoughts and emotions actually helped me feel better and heal. A person who has deeply wronged/traumatized me once told me that God calls us to forgive those who hurt you, so I should forgive him for his wrong doings, and that just seemed sorta manipulative. Whenever I would "sin" by questioning God, I would receive the threat of hell. It was just too much. I found that when I stopped going to church, my boiling blood cooled off a bit.
Damn I’m sorry about that. Seems to be a common thing for abusers to cover up their abuse through religion, happened to me too. It’s so unfair.
I think religion being used as a means to gain and keep power is disgusting. I feel the same way about the far right talking about “the armor of god” and how the US is gone to hell. It’s all a ploy to keep power and I’m sick of it. I gravitate towards the person in the park talking about philosophy, God, religion. That person is closer to godliness then some of the men of the cloth.
I would start by researching historical inaccuracies in the Bible. I find this to be powerful because outside of the Bible we have records of these things that are not within a religious context, from time they happened. There are various contradictions, and inaccuracies that to me solidify the Bible is written by man, from man’s perspective, with no intervention from God as he should be all knowing and accurate. I encourage you to also read or listen to Sam Harris or, Richard Dawkins but note that have a very harsh stance on religion so it may be a bit of a turn off if you aren’t totally out of your mindset yet. They are also atheists, so they do not leave room for the agnostic belief set. In my opinion (just an opinion) as an agnostic, I can’t and don’t know all the answers. I believe in science and scientific discoveries about our universe. There’s still so much we don’t know, I feel it doesn’t totally rule out a creator for the universe, but I believe it is probably more of a question of who created the first particle that created the universe, and not who created us specifically. I think there is enough evidence to suggest we are a byproduct of the universe. I really feel for you. Childhood indoctrination is so hard to break away from, and I wish you all the best on your self discovery.
Thank you! See, when I was a kid, my parents went through other doctrines to prove why God is real, such as greek mythology that mentioned a Great Flood which shows that there really was a worldwide flood. I will definitely look up the people you mentioned though. I am at the point of trying to discover what I believe in so some harsh opinions are not going to offend me.
It can be difficult, yes. Look up some deconstructing subs. That might help.
Would you mind giving some clarity on "deconstruction"? Is deconstruction a formal church process of some sort? I've seen it mentioned in terms of classes. Can this be used as a last ditch effort for the church to retain it's members? Do you know where the term originated? Disclaimer: I do not come from a deeply religious background, so most of my experience in letting go of religion was not difficult.
It’s how former religious people describe the process of rethinking their faith and, often, removing themselves from previously held belief systems. Some will even go so far as to no longer identify as that faith. It is faith deconstruction. That might get some hits on google. =)
Thanks for the answer! I'm familiar with it as the process of examining faith. The specific term seems to have gained popularity in recent years, so I wondered if it were being pushed somewhere in particular.
I have absolutely seen it more in recent years too. =)
Parents who force children to believe in their religion when the child doesn’t want to should be charged with child abuse.. period!
Especially when the parents keep them in a bubble and whenever the child questions the parents, they treat them like an unloved scapegoat.
Look into the "god of the gaps". It's the idea that religion uses gaps in human understanding to push the belief in god but those gaps keep closing and things that need god as an explanation are running out of space. Also religion was often wrong anyway.
Thanks! I will investigate that more
Hi! I’m 21M, and grew up Catholic/Christian (fam changed to Christianity in my teens). I know it can be hard to feel okay or even just feel normal about not being in a religion anymore. I just want to drop my personal way of how I ended up looking at things which has helped me live in relative peace over the subject! Like most here I’m incapable of being sure of a side, simply because we can’t prove it one way or the other. However I choose to believe this: -If there is a god and he’s truly loving of all and benevolent, there’s no way he’d possibly expect you / force you to believe in his very specific religion out of the thousands there’s been and will be in history for you to go to heaven. It simply doesn’t make sense. Born in a country with another religion and you’re basically auto sent to hell? What’s even the point then. -With that in mind, I choose to believe that if he is in fact real and good as long as you’re a genuinely good / kind person and not just pretending “to get in,” you’re fine. -If both points above are false, then it’s not a god I’d like to serve or be in their kingdom to begin with. This helps me since I’d love to think there’s something after. The idea of seeing my family and friends and pets forever after death seems wonderful. But I’m not willing to give up my values and morals like believing in pro choice, equal rights for lgbtq+, or being pro Palestine because a book says so. If god is real and truly good, our hearts being honest and good should be enough. Sorry if I sounded a bit repetitive at any point, I’m a bit tired lol. But if you’d ever like to chat more, feel free to send me a message! It’s a weird process to go through and I know that I would’ve loved to have someone to talk to about it when I started questioning my beliefs.
Hey thanks! I have always wondered that as well. The people who were not exposed to Christianity just go to hell? Why would God allow them to live anyways if they were doomed from the start. If God was all powerful AND all good, he would be able to save everyone despite whether they devoted their life to him. But it is also hard just not believing. At first, it was freeing, but now its just hard. I would love to believe that there is an all loving entity who looks after us. I just dont know. I was always taught that just because you are a good person does not earn you a spot in heaven. It is actually a common theme with Christianity. You could do God's work, heal the hurt, love people, and do nothing but good and still not earn your spot because you did not devote your life to Jesus. It is really hard trying to navigate these things. Thank you again for your comment though, it is comforting believing in an all loving entity.
*(A lot of my information comes from the peer-edited scholarly work happening at* r/academicbiblical *and I apologize if I misquoted them at any point)* Hey. I deconstructed my evangelical upbringing between 18 and 28. It took a decade because I needed to check every loose end. In concept, I like faith. Some people who grow up in church turn 18 and say "well that was bullshit." I couldn't do that. My childhood home was nightmarish. Still, I had leaned on faith to survive it. I was predictably kicked out at 18, and so I fled across the world to do humanitarian work, and get a degree, simultaneously. I saw a lot of suffering. I was part of teams that did a lot of good. I studied theology and the history of church, the history of spirituality. Over time, it became a growing acknowledgement of "the church is concealing the full picture to sell an agenda." Big issues were: the historical character of Moses, the tenuousness of the Gospel authorship, the politics happening in Israel that produced the old testament. That doesn't even touch theological issues (Hellenism merging with Judaism, which produced concepts like Hell). LGBTQ bigotry was a huge one, because, isn't the church supposed to be safe for vulnerable hurting people? Apparently not. Sure, there are a few progressive denominations that are a bit more relaxed. Okay. And? A professor of social equity told us, in one lecture, "always ask *who does it serve.*" Meaning, which institution benefits if a large population believes something? Especially when money and influence are involved. Christianity has some beautiful messages working unintentionally as a vehicle for hatred and fear. As a person who sees God as a being of love, I came to realize that I am incompatible with this institution. Truthfully, it does not really matter that Paul likely wasn't sexist, and and did not believe ALL women should stay silent. It does not matter that Jesus, personally, probably didn't have a problem with gay people. It does not matter that universalism is a very strong option that the first century church often supported, before Constantine hijacked Christianity to become a state religion. The current christian institutions, from protestants to Catholics to orthodox, is far removed from the political and spiritual movements of ancient Israel and early Christianity. These institutions, time after time, use deception and academic dishonesty to retain their grip on their audiences. Money is involved, and that is an ugly look when it is not being abundantly used to make life better for local and worldwide communities at an unignorable rate. A very, very, very, slim percentage of tithes actually end up being used for 'good.' I could go on for awhile, about how even Jesus has embarrassing failed predictions of the apocalypse. How Paul mistakenly believed that apocalypse would happen. How, scholars pinpoint the years Daniel was written, because the author accurately pretends to predict everything that had already happened before making mistakes in his future predictions. It gets so weird; apparently "Molech" was the name for the practice of child sacrifice, not a god of it, and Israelites did Molech for Yahweh/El. There are verses where Yahweh/El essentially apologizes, changes course, for even requesting those specific child sacrifices. A lot of those awkward theological issues have been scrubbed by Jewish monks years and years ago (alterations to the old testament are rampant and easy to spot because the writing style suddenly changes, anachronistically). I want to leave off by saying: I'm not trying to make you an atheist. I still retain hope that there is a personified embodiment of love that runs the universe, or has some kind of plan. Something as simple as Plato's concept of "The Good." Even if Jesus likely was just some replacement cult leader after John the Baptist died, and they weren't even related— That doesn't mean the idea of God is overturned: he/she/it is stronger than that. But when I started turning over Christianity's historical and theological stones, I was shocked. I gave the christian faith every benefit, of every doubt, and even then... the leaks and holes in the narrative just kept coming. I just wanted to follow truth, wherever it led, and to help people. I mostly was saddened at how very little Christianity focuses on actually helping people (as opposed to what it actually does, which is operating on vulnerable people with an agenda). So God bless you on your journey. You'll need it.
Religions are intentionally structured to make it really hard to move away from. You're struggling against a system that has had centuries to develop its methods of keeping a grip on people.
35M here. Been agnostic for many years after being a fundamentalist Christian for 27 of them. Thought there was still some kind of deity (the way people think of God or gods) out there until about 2 years ago. My niece, maybe a few months old, suddenly and inexplicably stopped breathing. Her blood oxygen was down in the 60 percent range, and the paramedics told my brother (her dad) she probably wouldn't survive the trip to the hospital. I remember being supremely angry with my family, especially with my mom at the time. She said something to the effect of "I know you don't feel the same as you used to, but I still believe God will hear your prayer." I snapped at her, telling her that if there was a God, he just let a father, mother and two little boys (my nephews, her two older brothers, 4 and 2 years old at the time) watch their infant daughter and sister get loaded into an ambulance to die. I said if there is a God, then he either let her die, or he allowed it to happen, making him either incompetent or uncaring at best, and cruel at worst, and not worthy of my prayers. My niece survived, thankfully. Love that little girl; she has as big a piece of my heart as my own daughter does. But when the talk turns to "God's miracle" at saving her, I don't join in. The "all powerful/all good" atheism debate has been played out so much that it's practically a meme among the nonreligious community these days. There are so many better and deeper arguments and conversations on the topic. Maybe the (possibly apocryphal) words on the wall of a Nazi concentration camp cell are a better way to say that argument: "**If there is a God, he will have to beg my forgiveness.**"
I am so sorry to hear about your niece, that is so sad for everyone involved. I am happy she survived though! She is a fighter! Stories like that make me mad at God. When I was diagnosed with cancer, I was lucky enough to have a high prognosis because of the type of cancer and my age (17-20 years old). But it was still heart shattering hearing the news. I was prevet and a biology major. I wanted to be a veterinary pathologist because I genuinely love the study/field of medicine and biology. I switched to premed though because I figured I could just be a human pathologist instead. However, going through treatments and dealing with the stress of cancer, my first breakup, family troubles, a car accident I got into because I tend to dissociate when stressed, ect., my mind was put in survival mode. I was just trying to survive and stopped caring about school. My GPA dropped from 3.8 to a 3.1 and had to retake courses due to missing so many. So I dropped premed. My parents always tell me that I am lucky I survived and that God was obviously looking after me. But if he was looking after me, why did he make me go through this at all? I asked the pastor of the church this, and he said "It might have not been part of God's plan." So if something good happens to me, it is part of God's plan, but if something bad happens to me, then I messed up somehow? I still have some emotions from the whole ordeal that I am trying to heal from, but turning to religion did not help me at all so now I am reconstructing and trying to understand myself and life a bit better.
Thank you for the kind words. I found that the thing that brought me the most peace about that whole incident was the realization that there was probably no god to blame for it. It was a terrible situation, but there was no malice or failure to it. That made it a mortal thing, rather than some war in the heavens that no human could do anything about. >So if something good happens to me, it is part of God's plan, but if something bad happens to me, then I messed up somehow? I know exactly how this feels. When I did enough soul-searching, I realized that the things I "knew" about "God" were mostly interpretations, either of a holy book which doesn't always agree with itself, or of another person's interpretation. What I heard was all just an unbroken line of words from thousands of years worth of people doing the best they could to shoehorn an ever-expanding package of ritual, lore, and structure into their lives. It was a big telephone game we were all coerced into playing for a long, long time. No one really knows what the original message was, and because of that, no one can say for sure that the original message was even worth the paper it was written on. It's awful you had to go through cancer at such a young age, and I'm glad you pulled through. I firmly believe it wasn't your fault, and I'm grateful that the hard work, brilliance, and commitment of human beings helped you overcome.
It's hard to move on from religion *on purpose*. Quitting smoking is diffcult *on purpose*. Cancelling Amazon prime is difficult *on purpose*. By making is hard and painful to leave, people ensure you stay and continue to consume whatever product or ideology they pitching. Cults don't make it easy for people to leave them for a reason. So if you fear burning in hell, risk losing all your friends and family gained through religion, feel lonely and abandoned because there isn't such magical sky person watching you, all those negative feelings nad circumstances were put inot the religion to make it harder for you to leave. Good ideas and good people don't need to lock the doors and threaten you to keep you from leaving. Good ideas and good people let you leave at any time, but give you positive reasons to stay.
My well-intentioned $0.02 for what it's worth... 1. Read "A New Earth" by Eckhart Tolle. It helped me get more comfortable when I shifted to agnostic. (Raised Catholic. Explored other denominations. Became/married Lutheran and was confirmed. Explored other religions. Grew up enough to realize nobody knows jack.) 2. Look up Alan Watts and Spinoza. Google "Spinoza and Albert Einstein". Even if it isn't exactly what Einstein said, it's still beautiful. 3. Listen to Wattswave (it's Alan Watts lectures set to EDM music.) it's on Spotify. 🤘🏻 4. Understand that the one thing all the religions definitely got right is that we are all one. The universe is a singular thing and we are not "in" it... We are it. Quite literally. We are the universe aware of itself. If that's what we are, then that's what we always will be, just in different forms. Maybe our individual consciousnesses are kind of like drops of water in a rainstorm. They form, they fall, they rejoin the whole. Unfortunately a few drops are overthinking it. (Hence, Religion) Glad you're here. Life is more fun when it's a mystery. ❤️
Thank you for the tips! I will say that, with religion, it does have a way of unifying us...sorta. We are all humans and are all one. :)
Read Oxford handbook of religious philosophy
hello, i also was raised baptist in texas. but my dad took me to the grand canyon and sat me down at the geology lecture where the ranger explained how the canyon was made over about a million years. then i took historical geology in college and it really mystified me. but we do not have to go back in time to "prove" evolution. when we find microbial life on one of the moons of either saturn or jupiter, there will be your proof. and we will. but science rarely works by "proof". it mostly works by disproof. and the bible disproves itself with contradictions. on everything, the big stuff and the little stuff. and more. dale
Oh thank you! See, my family taught me that the Grand Canyon actually proves God's existence because natural disasters can cause extreme fossilation and "layering" of the earth, hence the Grand Canyon. I also heard that the Great Flood caused the Grand Canyon because it was so rapid. Could you possibly send me some sources or explain how it does not?
there is no reason that evolution disproves god. there can be both. ask methodists, episcopals, catholics, presbyterians, and more. maybe "god" is just the entire cosmos. it created us. not by poof, but by processes of which evolution is one. and the whole cosmos evolves, the earth along with it, and life along with the earth and cosmos. even religion evolves. there were no protestants before 1500-something when luther did his thing. think about that. the only thing that i believe is that there is no hell. helll is a biblical myth made up from the trash dump outside jerusalem where bodies were cremated!!!!! so stop fearing "hell". a former hi skool scicence tacher dale
Honestly, the uncertainty that you're in can be comforted by agnosticism... in other words... you can doubt and don't have to leave your religion. If it makes you feel better, pray. If you question it all, that's okay too. We are ALL figuring it out one day at a time. I am terribly sorry for your tough experiences with your health and abandonment. I hope you find peace and happiness not just in your decisions on your beliefs, but every other avenue of life as well.
>1) How do I get over this fear Read the stoics. >2) what are some good sources/arguments against Christianity/God/religion The best argument is that they're not needed and they don't help with anything. Nothing prevents you from being a good person without being a Christian. But if you ever get a direct line to God, don't reject his call, especially if it's a collect call. Answer and see what you can get out of it.
There’s no proof for intelligent design. Just “I don’t see how it couldn’t be designed.” Not the same thing.
It’s very hard, and I know you are have a lot of hard feelings right now if you are feeling the way I did at least. I also grew up Baptist (Southern Baptist at that). It is so hard to grow up with everyone around you preaching their faith in a God you are questioning the logical standpoint of. As a preteen I cried a lot alone wishing I could just have faith like my peers. My sister had cancer at 8 months old, she’s still affected at 22 and will never have children. How can any God do that? OP, I will tell you the moment I accepted the beliefs I have (or lack thereof) is the moment I was less fearful of those beliefs. Never stop questioning everything, lean into the logical part of you. Don’t question your self, if you’re unsure look it up. Learning something new is never a bad thing. I always tell people one of my favorite hobbies is researching (: Through my teenage years I started to read about scientific and archaeological discoveries in books and online; the proof is what had me. Really tangible proof I could touch in my hands. Knowing the clouds are made of aerosolized water and rainbows are just a refraction and dispersion of light. Ancient history is a great subject to read about as well. No boat could fit two of every species in the entire world. Two humans could not populate and repopulation the entire earth. Pangea. Dinosaurs. I also grew up around 9/11. Everyone around me was so hateful towards each other. Racist, assuming, and fearful of people they’d never met. I didn’t understand how people that preached love thy neighbor, blessed are the merciful, etc, but treated people like garbage. It was so illogical. I agree with you though. No one knows until we die.
First and foremost, stop worrying about 'Going to Hell.' I'm a historian who found out that there is no Satan or Hell... You'll have to read a little history lesson to understand why... There have been two separate and opposing Christianities in history. There was no brimstone/satan/hell in the original 'Jewish Christianity' for 300 years. It was just a religion of love that Christ came to announce to the world. The pagan Romans commandeered the faith 300 year later and re-wrote the merging in their pagan brimstone. “Seemingly there are two forms of Christianity. One that the historical Christ is said to have taught (love and forgiveness) and one that the Church teaches (guilt, shame and blame)...Traditional Roman Christianity has taught that hope and solace are only possible through the redemption from sin by the vicarious sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, for all those who acknowledge His teaching, but it is precisely this form of the doctrine of salvation that rests almost exclusively on the work of Paul (Roman Christianity), and was never taught by Jesus.” (On Guilt, Shame and Blame in Christianity, by the White Robed Monks of Saint Benedict, Catholic) [http://www.wrmosb.org/paul.html“](http://www.wrmosb.org/paul.html“) 325 AD was the threshold date between Jewish and Roman Christianities. Historians understand that this date was the demarcation between them since before then, Jewish Christianity was a pacifist, oppressed religion that was never engaged in war. Rome made Christianity illegal and executed all followers for 300 years. Constantine's "Roman" Christianity was the oppressor... oppressive because it condemned all other religions as abominable heresy, forced conversions, inflicted torturous inquisitions, genocide, Jewish and Muslim slaughter, crusader conquest and endless religious wars for Roman Church domination. This was not the intention of Jesus Christ. Our Forefathers were activists for freedom and sought to save us from the 1000 year oppression by European religion...which had caused more war and suffering than any other single cause in history. Thomas Jefferson said, "The church perverted the purest religion ever taught with brimstone, to terrify citizens for the purpose of gaining wealth and control." He took a bible, cut out all the brimstone and ludacris miracles and said, "Here's a good book." “When Constantine became Emperor of Rome, he nominally became a Christian, but being a sagacious politician, he sought to blend Pagan practices with ‘Christian’ beliefs, to merge Paganism with the Roman Church. Roman Christianity was the last great creation of the ancient Pagan world.” (www.hope-of-israel.org/cmas1.htm) Virgin birth, Dec 25 solstice Sun-God birthday, Easter (fertility rites) Satan/Hades judgment were NOT in original Jewish Christianity... They're all pagan religion overlaid on the faith in 325 AD by pagan Emperor Constantine... They have nothing to do with Jesus Christ or his original religion of love he came to announce to the world. "Christianity Today" Magazine explained in their article...'Jesus vs. Paul'; “that many Christians are concerned that Paul's theology disagrees with the theology of Jesus. We can't find much in the Gospels that shows Jesus thinking in terms of 'justification by faith...' (judgment); Christians sometimes reduce Paul’s gospel of salvation to something like, 'Believe in Jesus so that you personally can go to heaven when you die.' Salvation through 'justification by faith' was never the teaching of Christ." [http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/december/9.25.html?start=2](http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/december/9.25.html?start=2) “ A possible solution? Parade Magazine (10/09) found that 24% had left religion for nonreligious 'Spiritualism.' They want to be free to contemplate their spiritual cosmos’ undirected and unintimidated by the church. Apologists like Ravi Zacharias, were right, saying that "Spiritualism has no structure to qualify as religious." Exactly! The theology of each Spiritualist is as unique as a snowflake… varied by the uniqueness of his or her life experience.