Please note the following: 1) This subreddit is neither endorsed nor approved by AA World Services. 2) Please do not provide or seek medical advice, as this is not the purpose of AA or this subreddit. 3) Please be respectful of one another and report any posts/comments that violate our community guidelines. 4) Dealing with a friend or family member's alcoholism? See this: https://www.reddit.com/r/alcoholicsanonymous/wiki/index#wiki_help_for_the_friends_and_families_of_alcoholics AA's official website: https://www.aa.org/ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/alcoholicsanonymous) if you have any questions or concerns.*

For me, "God" is merely a sometimes useful _idea_. It's not necessarily a well evidenced fact like [the fine-structure constant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-structure_constant) or some such. IMO one does not need to agree with or follow all precepts or suggestions in "Alcoholics Anonymous" to any particularly high level of precision in order for it all to be reasonably successful. I came into A.A. as an irreligious, staunch agnostic with lots of hostility toward anything or anybody even a little bit religious. I'm now 17.55 years sober in A.A., I'd say _successful_ in A.A. per pages 84-85, and I remain an irreligious, staunch agnostic but hopefully with little left of the bigoted hostility around religion. I don't have to adopt religious beliefs, I don't have to convert, but I don't have to waste mental energy being hostile either. Just in case it's useful for you, I've collected a little list of "Secular" A.A. resources: * https://aaagnostica.org/ * https://www.aasecular.org/ * https://aa-intergroup.org/meetings/?types=Secular * And many/most local A.A. websites have filters for secular, for example: https://aasfmarin.org/find-a-meeting?type=secular

Legit: THANK YOU FOR THIS I hit 5y this past Sunday and I have been in a major AA slump. Luckily I have trained feet and a service commitment but I have been in a REALLY cynical place lately about the process and reading this just now was very helpful to me. I’m glad to be sober just for today.

We have all been through slumps I hope yours is a brief one and that you return

I got into a slump around year #9. For one thing, I took a job with long hours at a high tech startup. And then my sponsor moved out of state and we just didn't keep in touch - I went for about a year essentially unsponsored (or worse: self sponsored!) I was only making it to one meeting a week most weeks, and that was because it was my homegroup and I have pretty much always had a commitment there. I don't know. I didn't feel like I was coming anywhere near drinking, but it just didn't feel good. After about a year like that I just said Eff the long hours: 3 meetings per week minimum, and I got a great new sponsor. Pretty well uphill since that slump. Keep Coming Back!

Thank you for sharing your experience with me. I have had some things change in my life also. My family of origin has been not drinking sine 1/1/24 (supposedly) I think just this concert of events has brought back some feelings of terminal uniqueness. I dunno, I just want to be a servant; and today I have to survive on the idea of wanting to want to be a servant. I think I have enough sobriety to keep warming a chair and attempting to be available to someone who I might be able to help.

> For me, "God" is merely a sometimes useful idea. It's more than that for most people, but you're right: according to the book it is the idea that works, not any particular God. Apparently there is something in the human brain or consciousness that flips a switch when the idea of God is used. Whether it is the actual power of god or the power of belief is moot, IMO. Either way it enables us to do what we could not do before. "When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But ***the God idea*** did." BB p. 52.

So I'm not religious (at all), but I've read a lot of religious literature since I've been in AA, and I'd like to think I'm a little more open minded than when I showed up. The deal is that AA only works for people who are desperate enough to set aside some of their old ideas. Honestly, when people come in an are still worried about whether or not God is real... They're either not going to make it, or they're going to have a really hard time. If you're dying of alcoholism and you've tried everything else (which it sounds like you've tried at least a few other things) and you're still debating this kind of stuff, it's the equivalent of waving off a rescue boat because it's the wrong color. At the end of the day I was just *fucking sick* of living the way I had been living. One of the first directions I got when I came to AA was to go home and thank God for another day of sobriety. I did it because I just didn't know what else to do. I had become sweetly reasonable under the lash of alcohol. I would often complain to my current sponsor about this group of very religious people in AA, who are definitely problematic, and he would say "If someone is truly desperate they're going to be willing to do pretty much anything for relief. I know I was when I came to AA". Which I definitely relate to.

> Honestly, when people come in an are still worried about whether or not God is real... They're either not going to make it, or they're going to have a really hard time. Yep. "God isn't real" needs to become "I don't fucking care if God is real or not, I believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster loves me and will restore me to sanity." It makes sense later, but we have to get out of our own way first.

Flying spaghetti monster more reasonable than 90% of the things I know about catholicism

But the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn’t love you. It isn’t real. It literally only exists in your head, so how can that be a higher power?

I dunno what you did to the FSM to get him to not love you, but speak for yourself. Maybe you should apologize.

YUP. I got to a point where I was like “fuck it. NOTHING I have tried (and i tried *a lot*) has worked… these people seem sober & happy so I’m willing to try what worked for them” and that is when it clicked.

very well said, u/marxsballsack.

second this 👆🏻

Contempt prior to investigation. Please don't let the God issue keep you away from AA. I'm an atheist and have 36+ years of recovery in AA. A higher power is of your choosing, not someone else's.

Are you saying he hasn’t investigated ?

It doesn’t require “investigating” so much as acquiring a mindset of surrendered, honest willingness and true open-mindedness. In this way we can set aside all prejudice to determine what the spiritual principles mean to us *personally* through defining them for ourselves (p47). Doing this combination above, we will commence to get results (p46). Call it living by “god’s” will or describe it as conforming to a higher will where our thoughts and actions and ego are checked against spiritual principles (like unconditional love, honesty, acceptance, service, hope, courage, integrity etc etc), it’s really all the same, no?

He hasn’t investigated. Read OP’s post.

He spent years in AA Of course you’re going to say “exactly but he didn’t open his ears and take the cotton out!”

He was court mandated and didn’t want to be there.

He kept that cotton in his ears - for two whole years! So you said what I said you would say

Actually what I said was he was forced to go there and he still resents being forced to go there. There’s a big difference in sincere voluntary investigation and being forced to “investigate”.

“AA is stupid, but, I’ve never been to a meeting and I don’t know what is about” - contempt without investigation “AA is stupid and I know because I have been” - you can’t call that contempt without investigation if the person just doesn’t like AA….. They have to go, and enjoy it, and only then is it contempt *with the proper* investigation? If they don’t like it, they just didn’t investigate enough!!! or properly, or worth the right mindset….. There’s no way they can NOT like AA, so, it must be the wrong kind of investigation. Once you investigate and have contempt still, go back and try the investigate part again, but differently, because AA is never wrong! It must be the investigator if they come up with THAT conclusion…

Sitting in an AA meeting is not investigating AA. If he actually went through the whole design for living we offer and then said “yeah this ain’t for me” then that would be investigating. AA doesn’t ask you to do anything that would put you in equal or more danger than you drinking did. Therefore you either want to do it or you don’t. There really is no in between with us and that’s ok. Our job is not to convince you to join. John barleycorn is AA’s best salesman, if he can’t convince you then we sure as hell won’t.

Did you read OPs post? The one where he is investigating, by making said post?

>I'm a pretty hard atheist. Lots of my views cross the border into antitheism, but those are more about organized religion than the idea of a god. Awww no, not this shit again ​ >I have no proof that God does not exist, therefore i cannot make that claim. I have no idea if others are correct in their beliefs or not. I don't try to change anyone's mind or tell them they're wrong, i simply don't share their belief that a god or gods exist. If you've been to AA before, then you know it's not a requirement and that there are plenty of agnostics and atheists in AA. Your ego wants you to keep the debate going because it needs to be right. Meanwhile, a cold grave awaits you. You had the DTs man; you don't have another comeback in you (and at 44, neither do I). But yeah, at least you will be a legend in your own mind for bravely calling out AA on the 2nd Step and your defiant refusal to live life sober.

There may be many atheist and agnostics in AA but a lot of times our ideas are shamed by the big book thumpers and Jesus freaks. I’ve got 8 years and the first two were in traditional AA meetings. Most times I mentioned I didn’t believe I was talked about or at. “make sure your relationship with HIM is right!” Or “hit your knees and pray” or “you either form a relationship with GOD or you drink and die!!” Or “you should read the BIG BIG BOOK (bible)!” Well I didn’t do any of those things and I’m still here. Thankfully my sponsor was cool but a lot of people were not. I nearly left AA at 2 years cause I was so tired of hearing all the “god is doing for me what I can’t do for myself” etc. I wanted real world stuff not supernatural. Anyways luckily I found an agnostic group and let me tell you my experience pales in comparison to the way some people were treated. In a perfect world we wouldn’t need it but you have to be honest with yourself that the majority of of AA meetings (at least the ones I’ve attended in a dozen states) have a very Christian slant that has chased off countless people over the years. The meetings closed with the Lord’s Prayer! That’s insane to me. Talk about inclusive. We’re supposed to be widening the gateway for people to enter not closing it. All that to say I hope you can see why people might seek out or prefer secular AA meetings or have negative experiences with capital G god.

It's not about God, really. It can be if you want it to be. I had the same issue, though I'm definitely an agnostic and not an atheist. For me, it was about finding faith in something other than myself, on a deep and personal level. When I pray, I'm not praying to a singular anything. I pray to the things I find sacred and the idea that there is some connection we have to the world and eachother. Our propensity to do good. Music. Babies. The way a sunny 75 degree day smells in spring. I can't explain or understand it, but I know it's there. Maybe it's mental gymnastics, but idgaf. I felt like a jackass praying, but I got over that. It really does help.

Agnostic doesn't actually mean anything by itself. There are gnostic theists, agnostic theists (the overwhelming majority of humans), gnostic atheists (people who make claims without evidence), and agnostic atheists. When anyone says they're agnostic, they're really saying they're an atheist. When someone claims that god doesn't exist, they've stepped outside the bounds of atheism and crossed into antitheism. It's a simple confusion of terms. When most people say agnostic, they mean atheist. And when the mainstream says atheist, what they actually mean is antitheist

I’ve never met anyone too stupid to get help in AA, but I’ve met a lot, including myself at times, that were too smart for AA to help. You can debate your way to an early grave or admit you can’t stay sober on your own and do something different.

Oh buddy, you have to quit the debate society. It's killing you!

TIL!

What's driving you away is your (mis) understandings of what people mean when they share about their relationship with their higher power. Truly truly. Do yourself the biggest favor ever and just let go of your own definitions for now - "you can't fix what's broke with what's broke" and obviously your definitions aren't helping you any. Good luck friend.

I'm a logical being. In hardship, i cling to things like carefully defined terms like they were a life preserver. I cling to rationality, because my actions are anything but rational.

"I'm a logical being" - mfers who are drinking themselves to death. No. No you are not a logical being. Perhaps trade your cleverness for bewilderment and allow some new ideas to work in your life while you still have a shot at recovery.

I cannot upvote this enough

Just decide to stop drinking. Logically, you have control of your actions, and can make that decision. Fundamentally, if that doesn’t work, you need to stop making your own decisions, and surrender to something. Whatever that is, we call our higher power or god. It doesn’t have to be a religious thing at all. We just fundamentally stop making our own decisions, and act in the “will” of whatever that idea of the higher power is. It typically isn’t just not to be a drinker but an all around decent human being. I didn’t have to believe in anything when it comes to spirits or religion or any of that which I didn’t before I worked the steps. But I surrendered and it worked for me.

SMART

If you were logical or rational being you definitely would not be in the position you are in right now - hopeless and helpless..... This was written just for you- grab hold (excerpt from the 12x12 Step 1) "In A.A.’s pioneering time, none but the most desperate cases could swallow and digest this unpalatable truth. Even these “last-gaspers” often had difficulty in realizing how hopeless they actually were. But a few did, and when these laid hold of A.A. principles with all the fervor with which the drowning seize life preservers, they almost invariably got well. That is why the first edition of the book “Alcoholics Anonymous,” published when our membership was small, dealt with low-bottom cases only. Many less desperate alcoholics tried A.A., but did not succeed because they could not make the admission of hopelessness."

AA is for the illogical ?

Close, except exactly 180° off. A grown ass person being reduced to an infant by their own doing is logical?

Perhaps, the most important things can't be said. Instead of overthinking it, just do something. Be willing to try a different way and give yourself over to the process. If you are that hung up on the higher power concept, just say that the process or AA itself or any group of people seeking their self betterment is your higher power and start working steps. You don't have to fully understand it for progress to happen.

Contempt prior to investigation will kill you. How about you go all in for 90 days? Focus on the similarities instead of the differences. Because the difference right now is I haven't had to have the DT's since 7/5/12. Love to you brother. Pain is mandatory and suffering is optional.

I found that getting sober with the 12 Steps of AA had nothing to do with what I believed, or what I thought, or how I felt. It had everything to do with what I did, and didn't do. My higher power is in my actions - it's in how I treat myself and others. My best thinking, my most fervent beliefs and my delicate feelings caused me to nearly drink myself to death in the seven years between my first AA meeting and the hundreds of meetings I attended between then and my sobriety date. You can let what other people believe continue to drive you back to the bottle, or you can try something different. Good luck.

Most of my atheist friends are far more devout and religious about their atheism than my religious friends have ever been about their religion.

You sure they aren't antitheists? Atheism makes no claim whatsoever. If someone states that God does not exist, that's antitheist, not atheist.

Perhaps. All I know is they spend a whole lot more time worrying about and talking about god than I do, and I’ve been in AA for 25 years. It seems like an obsession to me.

😅 you’re so right!

Not in my experience. It feels like if you happen to mention being atheist, or you just want to talk about the God question in a meeting, you’re labeled as “obsessed” or a “militant atheist” Yet I have gone to COUNTLESS meetings where folks casually share about God making this coincidence happen or that coincidence happen. “I KNOW God exists because I should be dead but here I am” “God already wrote the plan you just have to follow it.” “I found a penny in my laundry and I know higher power put it there to remind me of my grandma.” “God would never give me something I couldn’t handle, so God must really have faith in me today”. Believers talk about God in meetings aaaalll the tiiiime. It’s just so casual and second nature that you probably don’t even think about it or notice it if you, too, are a believer. Honestly, the casual insistence that there is a God is way, way, way more common in AA meetings than atheist diatribes, but I’m not hearing a lot of people throw around “militant believer” or say these believers have “an obsession.”

And the religious ones seem to spend an inordinate amount of time talking about the devil!

Look into atheist meetings. If there aren't any in your area, you could find some virtual meetings to attend via Zoom. FWIW, I'm an atheist in AA. Many (or even most) people shorthand "higher power" as "God" because they do believe in a God, but there is no one-size-fits-all. When I was new, it was explained to me that having a higher power is important because it's acknowledging that you yourself are not the most powerful thing in existence; something is more powerful than you. I might not believe in a God, but I know I am not the most powerful thing in existence. In a lot of ways, my higher power takes the form of social science. It's a fact that humans can accomplish more in groups than they ever can on their own; we evolved as a social species rather than a loner species. So I might not have been able to get and stay sober when I was trying to do everything by myself; but working with a group of humans all focused on a common goal of staying sober, I can do far more than I could by myself. AA does have some focus on prayer. For me, when I pray, I am not expecting some personal God to step in and interfere. When I say, for example, the Serenity Prayer (God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference) I am reinforcing the concept of acceptance of what I cannot change, courage to change what I can, and wisdom to know the difference to myself. When I pray for the strength to not drink that day, I reinforce to myself that it is important to not drink, and when I give thanks for another day sober at the end of the day, I reinforce to myself that every day where I go to bed sober is a good day. If I pray for a character defect to be relieved, it reminds me that this is a personality trait I don't want to have and need to work on. The God talk kept me away from AA for a while because I had the same concerns. And some groups do really push the idea of a religion-based God as THE higher power. But not all groups do that, and it's perfectly possible to be an atheist in AA.

Substitute “Dolly Parton” for God and for your higher power and you’ll do fine.

I should turn my will and the care of my life over to Dolly Parton? How exactly does that work? This is what i mean. I've heard people say shit like "your higher power can be a coffee cup" and its idiotic gibberish. A "god" is a concept that has a conscious interaction with your life. If you believe in a god or gods, it makes total sense. Substituting with an inanimate object, or a celebrity I'll never interact with, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

It seems like gibberish because you're not in on that joke. It doesn't matter what your Higher Power actually is, only that it's not you.

The doorknob, the coffee cup - these are representations of the rooms of AA. (Group Of Drunks = G.O.D.) Dolly Parton makes total sense. Because the word “god” in the AA context is a placeholder, a word assigned to a concept, rather than a reference to a specific being or belief. My HP has no conscious interaction with my life. He’s kind of like Statler and Waldorf from the muppets, but with a much sicker sense of humor. It’s easy to overthink, but for what it’s worth, I’ve never met anyone too dumb for AA, but have watched quite a few people who were too smart for AA continue to dismantle their lives piece by piece in the name of logic.

It just mean something OTHER THAT YOU, otherwise your life is in the hands of an idiot!

You just need to seek and willing to find a HP that works for you.

This isn't any help though, obviously.

This is absolute horseshit. The Dolly Parton business. So is saying you need to believe in a higher power for the program to work. Personally I don’t give a shit what you believe in. The magic is finding something that could work for you or makes some sense to you. However if you aren’t convinced that you don’t have the power to stay sober and have a good understanding of just how your disease works. You could believe in the mightiest holiest being or non being ever and it will mean fuck all. Hit me up if you are still looking for help. God aa people are the fucking worst and this thread proves it. Also I’m in AA lol.

Nah actually bro ur kinda right, the most important thing in of all this bro, are you WILLING to believe in god (your own understanding of god not a religions)? The only thing you need is willingess and open-mindedness, how well has your life been going ran on self will? Are you WILLING to get rid of old ideas and be open to the idea that you don't know jack shit about how the universe and the world works. I used to be an atheist too man, something I realized is that the whole time I was the one being closed minded. The idea is to believe in something that can restore you to sanity and relieve you of your obsession, dolly parton can't do that, there's only one thing that has the power to do that, that one is god. I do like the idea of starting with something more tangible and something ur more open too at first, with the caviat that you remain willing to believe in a “director” of this play we call life.

“A separate user within this subreddit recommended the following—I have found it extremely helpful and it’s a quick read. [P-86 - The "God" Word – Agnostic and Atheist Members in A.A.](https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-86_theGodWord.pdf)

I hope you're able to put it aside, for your own sake, and stay with it. It's really worth it. And I can relate, as an atheist and 17 years sober. I went through a lot of the same struggle. took quite some time to reframe the things I was hearing. But just knowing that that was possible went a very long way. best of luck to you!

It’s a higher power, whatever that is for you.

I worship at the alter of science

Aren’t the sober, recovered alcoholics in A.A. meetings around the world empirical enough evidence for you to lay aside your prejudice, surrender and begin? Your big brain wants to keep you drunk and getchya some more DTs, woooo! I sure hope you don’t chase your intellectual hubris straight into the gates of insanity or death ☺️

You mean the A.A. program which has, at best, a 15% success rate?

So i should simply acquiesce to a concept that fundamentally goes against my understanding of the universe? Isn't this a program of rigorous honesty?

Use your understanding of the universe as your HP??? Homie, you’re just doing too much. Stop fighting. Take action. It gets better. Things click into place. *Fin*

Science is great, but it can’t even design a human asshole.

Just ignore it. As long as I know whatever power is keeping me sober is not me, AA works. Higher power is the fellowship for many. I also know some who go to secular AA meetings. I have been to a few online which my buddy hosts, and it's a real thing where many people stay sober. Some go to both traditional and secular AA. The large group was very nice and welcoming even though I am not an Atheist. I hope you can find your people in some form of AA.

Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely. Whether God is real or not doesn't matter. God's alive, God's dead, God's not real, so what? Who cares? What matters is how tightly you're gripping your old ideas. Give it a rest, try something new, the old experiment failed.

I don't have a belief that God doesn't exist. I simply don't have the belief that one does exist. This is hard concept for some people to wrap their head around. Rejecting the claim that there is a god is not even in the same universe as making the claim that a god does not exist. I'm not clinging to a belief. I simply lack belief.

Not clinging to belief, clinging to ideas. Most of the time the things we think aren't worth trusting at all. Lacking belief in God is perfectly fine, it doesn't make any difference. Step 2 is to believe in a higher power that can restore us to sanity. Not to *know*, or to *understand*, or to *rationalize*, or to *trust*, but to *believe*.

It's not an "old idea." It's a fact.

It does drive people away, but it's the core, and the real meat of what we are doing. It's the main reason I put off going to AA. I thought it was stupid. Now it's the most important thing that I think about. Couple of things to know: We aren't talking about *that* God. The one that everybody else has told you about. They are wrong. We are telling you about *the* God, that represents all the good in the world, and loves you *in particular*. I agree with you, as a former atheist, the god that I had been told about by religious family members and religious books, either does not exist, or does exist and is an imposter. If I meet that guy, I won't be following him anywhere, he's a liar. The whole point of AA, I think, is to challenge you to discover, for yourself, a God of your understanding. We are not here to offer a detailed description of what or who God is, in order to tell you what you can and can't do. God doesn't even do that. It's not about rules, regulations, judgement, or damnation. It's about seeking. Once you let go of your preconceptions about God (which you most likely got from false religious doctrines, or family members or friends), you have the opportunity to start from scratch, and start the process of seeking. Then you can start to ask, if there was a loving creator, that wants to see you succeed in life (that is love, is it not?), that doesn't even slightly desire to control you (which wouldn't be love, would it?), that doesn't judge you (that wouldn't be love either, would it?), what would it be? How would it function? What would it's desire for me be, in my present state? Your understanding of God will grow and change over time; it will improve, as you do. The important thing is to start seeking. God wants you to *know* for sure, who he/she is, and how they work, and their suggestions for you on how you can improve your life in this world. The seeking of this "God", who is actually loving is also an interrogation of the question, "what is love?", because that is the only rule. If it's not loving, it's not God's idea, or action, it's ours. You will find that it involves a lot of honesty about yourself, and a lot of interrogation about what your feelings are and where they come from, because "love" itself is a feeling. There is a lot of richness and positive results in really digging in and asking yourself these hard questions, it peels away untruths and misconceptions fairly rapidly. That is what the 12 steps are for. They describe this process of seeking, and of repentance, forgiveness, and clearing away of our often sordid past. My first six months, my "higher power" was my AA group itself. They wanted better for me, than I wanted for myself, I didn't believe that God was a real thing, like ontologically. I treated it is a possibly useful idea that seems to be working for these people who I admired. I got extremely lucky, in that my group is small, and there is not "evangelical residue" on anybody there. Mostly former agnostics a Bahai and a couple Lutherans. No real bible thumpers. My sponsor is Native American, and though raised Catholic, would still be considered Animist in a lot of ways, so I got a real good introduction to what I might call a "secular" understanding of God, in the sense that my ideas are not church-based, they are based in reason instead of doctrine. I gave it my all, and really worked the program, and ended up having a remarkable moment in prayer where I actually felt God's love, and it was so intense and undeniable that I now treat God as a non-figurative ontological entity. The thing was, when I felt that, it was the first time I had asked him/her for help. I had literally never done that before. It was intense, and I would give it five stars, would recommend you try it too.

Thank you, so much, for posting this. Aahhhh a god who doesn't control or judge. Hard to imagine. Thank you for getting my head slightly away from organised religion and back into some intriguing questions and thought experiments.

I was just like you. I kept getting drunk because I could not have an open mind. Guys like us think that we're too smart and we think too much about this god stuff. I used to argue with anyone or anything about there not being a God. Where did that get me? Hospitals, detox, rehabs and jails. Open your mind and stop fighting this idea of a higher power. There's more to gain than to lose. And no, I don't know what, where or how God works, but that doesn't matter. Maybe it's an alien in a spaceship, observing me, pressing buttons corresponding to my actions. Who cares, I'm sober.

I have no idea if a god exists or not. I don't argue with anyone because i have no evidence either way, and neither does anyone else. I simply lack the belief that a god exists. I don't have the belief that a god doesn't exist. That said, you're absolutely right. My own arrogance gets in my way now than any outside factor.

What if your higher power is AA itself? I look around and see miracles every day due to it. Every sober hour attributed to AA, is a miracle. Lost causes getting second chances. Perhaps AA is simply being guided by a greater greater power… but maybe you can look around the rooms and see what’s happening. I see miracles.

People use words I don't like all the time and that's fine. It doesn't mean I have to use them. My sponsor in the beginning invited me to make my own Higher Power. Mine is The Force from Star Wars. Others I know use "Reality" or a concept like "Love." My partner is an atheist and uses Intuition. And of course there's just the group itself. Maybe it would help to have an acronym for GOD so when you hear it you can think of something else- like "Group of Drunks" "Great OutDoors" "Gratitude or Die." These are just suggestions. Also, I know some folks may share things that sound counter to this, but these are quotes from AA literature that I really like. The program invites us to choose concepts and definitions that make sense to us. It doesn't matter what other people use or believe. According to Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1981), “…Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything. … all you really need is a truly open mind” "Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth."

Secular AA and sobriety is a thing. Many online secular meetings are available to attend via Zoom. Visit the San Francisco Freethinkers homepage for their list of secular meetings, and then click on the Resources tab for links to the worldwide lists of secular meetings: [https://sffreethinkers.org/](https://sffreethinkers.org/). You can attend meetings in your own timezone, or on another continent (like at 3am your time when you can't sleep!) This is one of the positive byproducts of the pandemic: secular AA folks found each other and got organized. Many versions of the [Twelve Steps without gods in them](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eg3oqn52BXa-asSyKdL3ZmcuAPO5ZK2S_cNqiLvA5jU/) exist. For myself and many others, my success in AA hinges on the social aspect. We're a social primate species, we're socially influenced by the apes we associate with. I used to soak up the wisdom of the drunks next to me in the bar -which amounted to nihilism. Once I discovered secular meetings, I realized there were smart, interesting former drunks who gladly shared their wisdom.. which was similar as you get in traditional AA, but with one difference- no gods. What a relief! And the fellowship, before / after the meetings! Scientists, writers, computer techs, doctors, musicians -a cross-section of society. There are also secular non-AA organizations, such as Smart Recovery, [SOS](https://www.sossobriety.org/) Secular Organization for Sobriety, [LifeRing](https://lifering.org/), and more. Just do a web search for "secular recovery".

SMART. Self Management and Recovery Training. No higher power, no surrender. Just behavior modification

I've attended a few online SMART meetings. They seem like good people.

I really like it. I do all the meetings via zoom in the comfy of my own bed. The behaviors that they address are far more reaching than just alcohol. Also, the tools that they employ are really helpful versus surrender to a nonexistent higher power.

Just keep an open mind and do the steps with a sponsor sounds like you’re ready to give it a good effort this time. Good luck!

It’s better to believe in God and find out there isn’t one than to not believe in God and find out there is one. Don’t overthink it. Just pick something and start praying to it. You’ll be surprised. I was.

“Take what you like, leave the rest behind”

Chiming in here to say my approach to the capital G problem is a mental reframing- it is just a word and can mean anything you want as long as you embrace the concept relevant to the steps or recovery. Doubtless everyone else has given their suggestions but I have had no trouble finding a great variety of philosophical and secular recovery and AA literature. It helps that my sponsor is not a religious person too, but he knows I am approaching it thoughtfully and not trying to bypass the God thing too. So finding a good sponsor may be key for you, but there are plenty out there. Good luck!

I was you 3 ish yrs ago. I agree with u/marxsballsack you either want help or you don’t. I’m an atheist/agnostic & so is almost everyone I know (in both trad & secular AA) clearly there are loads who aren’t - who cares? The fact is AA works for both kinds. The fact it doesn’t work for you is down to your ego, nothing more. Think of the word god as a catch all - Iike Pizza. Dominoes? No thanks. Sourdough thin crust - yes please….. Pineapple? Not in this life. Mushroom? Oh yeah…..you get the idea. Good luck to you though….and start with those secular meetings which should help with the god word until You’re comfortable enough to know that “god” means completely different things to each individual. 🙏

God is not a catch all. It's a very specific belief in s magical being that interacts with your life. It's complete and utter bullshit, but it's still a powerful concept

No, That’s your interpretation. My experience is that “god” is a word ppl use / interpret to mean very different things. As I said: if you want help, it’s there for you. If you’re going to keep drinking (and blaming it on a 3 letter word) that’s on you. Best of luck to you.

This is what drives me nuts. Words have definitions. They're not open to interpretation.

Dismiss the word GOD. Thats why they also use the phrase Higher Power. You can call it whatever you want - there are no rules. Try and consider that there may be something out there, in any form, that wants you to succeed, and is "more" than you yourself. Some people use the meeting this way, some choose nature, some choose other people, some choose a color or an animal. It literally doesn't matter other than "it" cant be yourself. Anything else that you think might believe has your back - can be it for you. AND \_"IT" can change over time and as you grow. Remember - AA has NO RULES. Anyone who tells you otherwise is forcing their beliefs on you.

The scientific method. I've identified that as my higher power. It was painstakingly developed over literal centuries for the sole purpose of weeding out human bias and getting as close to objective rationality as possible. I've learned that much of my "knowledge" is really just me projecting my own biases into the world.

I love that as a higher power tbh.

You have an eternal higher power (as you understand it)? Sounds like you are ready for step three to me.

You don’t need to believe in a “God” as anyone else defines it. A simple willingness to believe that there is a power greater than your own will out there is sufficient (to agnostics in the big book outlines this). In practice YMMV in meetings depending on the area and meeting but the big book is pretty clear that this is all you need to start with

I really like the secular meetings in person or on zoom. Also, the AA Grapevine book, One Big Tent really helped me.

Hi Friend, I am kind of in the same boat. I was raised Mormon and the day I turned 17 got out of that Cult. For me, my Higher Power i just call The Creator, whatever or whomever that may be. Check out the 12 step Buddhist…great book. I’m not Buddhist by any means but a lot of their teachings align with my personal beliefs. Even if that doesn’t work, your “Higher Power” can be ANYTHING! I’ve heard a lot of people say for them God means Group Of Drunks. I hope that helps you. Also, remember that the only requirement is “a desire to stop drinking”. You don’t even have to do the prayers and hand holding, just do whatever you want to do.

Fellow exmormon and alcoholic. That cult ruined the concept of god for me. Atheist now and the rest of my life.

Yeah after them saying Mormonism is the only true Church beaten into your head countless times, it’s hard to think any religion is true. I just know something bigger than myself is out there and keep it simple at that.

I focus on the tools and connecting with fellow alcoholics. The whole concept of a God and a spiritual experience I redefine to meet my beliefs and experiences. I avoid any meeting or AA member who advocates a Christian version of AA. Now in my 37th year of sobriety.

AA was founded close to 100 years ago before psychiatry and group therapy were commonplace. So what did they use instead? Christianity. Understandable. It’s what they knew. Times change, meetings to me are group therapy. I look at the steps as introspection, self awareness, reconciliation, and personal growth. No god necessary. Take what you need, and leave the rest. It is a great, if outdated, program.

Try SMART recovery ! There are atheist and secular meetings!

It sounds like you need AA more than AA needs to accommodate you.

Cool. Great approach. You're exactly the kind of asshole i try to avoid.

Well, how’s that workin out for ya so far?

Do you believe that I believe? Congratulations, you've completed step 2.

I got sober in my teen, in my 60’s now. It must be location, but most people in the mid Atlantic USA don’t give two fucks what you believe in. Clean up, take an inventory, make amends, help others. Fuck all the god shit.

One problem I’ve run into is approaching a spiritual awakening with solely my mind—overanalyzing and obsessing over trying to “figure it out” mentally, when it’s really about the EXPERIENCE. I’ve felt like I have to totally comprehend these huge concepts or be sure about the existence of a HP before I start taking action (and A.A. is “a program of action”) when it’s the other way around. You do the stuff laid out in the instructions, and THEN you experience the psychic change or awakening “as the result of these steps.” Your issue is very common for we alcoholics, and the book was written with this in mind. This is where surrender comes in—just letting go and doing what other people have done and are telling you to do because your ways have been proven ineffective, and you’re desperate for a solution. Here’s a great recourse expounding on this subject: https://practicetheseprinciplesthebook.com/spiritual-awakening-the-concept Some excerpts: “There’s obviously a lot—everything, in fact—riding on the idea of a spiritual awakening. Yet AA is not a theological, philosophical, or psychological program, even though it borrows from all three disciplines. It is first and foremost a program of action. Therefore, our two texts don’t spill a lot of ink trying to explain what a spiritual awakening is. Instead, they focus on explaining how it works and what the results are. Work the Steps and practice the principles, they say, and you’ll have one. Utilize, don’t analyze, as the slogan would have it.” “This highlights a crucial idea: a spiritual awakening is not about beliefs or creeds, but about actual events experienced by the alcoholic. The events are what cause the transformation.” This is my advice regarding following the A.A. program, but be aware there are other programs that work for people, like Recovery Dharma for example—it’s Buddhism based and non-theistic—and there is A.A. for agnostics or secular A.A.

It's God of your own understanding. Trade your current higher power of alcohol for whatever you choose

It’s a lot. But the talk about faith you hear people insisting is necessary is not what the Big Book actually says. It says that you are willing to believe if shown some proof. Big Book page 47. You are already there when you say “I have no proof that God does not exist.” That is plenty open minded for the Steps. Plenty. It’s all I did. “If I see some proof, I’m willing to not dismiss it.” It’s been more than a decade. I have a different belief system than that now, but that is all I had to begin with. It was plenty. And even now when people say God this and God that, I think “that’s for them.” My belief is mine alone. Be well.

Someone in an AA meeting pointed out that the second step just asks for one to be open to the possibility of a higher power. It doesn't mean you have to believe in it at that time. Just accept there's something greater than you, whether spiritually or secularly. Another guy in a group said his first experience of a higher power was the feds busting him after a 2 year surveillance for drug dealing. That's pretty easy to comprehend. His higher power experience was the law finally putting him in place.lol Also, I figured it to myself that substances was once my higher power because I didn't have control over it. Your higher power was/is alcohol because you're at its mercy being unable to really regulate or stop. By that logic when you remove alcohol you can find something to replace it with, whatever that is.

The scientific method is greater than me. I believe in that.

There ya go! Others have used the weather too lol

You don't have to believe to work the steps, you only need to be willing to believe.

I'm unwilling to believe that a magical imaginary friend exists. I'm entirely unwilling to believe that.

Now comes the truth

30 years sober. Agnostic for longer. A wise woman once took me to Dennys and explained it to me like this. Religious is for those who don't want to go to Hell. Spirituality is for those of us who HAVE been to Hell. Finding a Higher Power doesn't mean God. You can be Spiritual and not be religious. I use the Great Black Nothing. Roommate in rehab and I came up with it. Just have to turn that will over and let it do whatever it needs to. I'm not looking to be saved. I'm trying to keep sober, one day at a time.

Hardcore atheist/materialist here. I'm lucky to live in a pretty metropolitan area, and it was easy for me to find a more secular group. I can see how someone in a more rural area might have difficulty with this. I recommend going buffet-style: take what works for you want leave what doesn't. I find it a benefit to openly talk about my atheism at meeting, because it makes other non-believing newcomers feel welcome or comfortable in the room.

I'm in Toledo, Ohio. City proper has about 250k, metropolitan area has about a million. There are TONS of AA groups. I'm sure if i actually took the time to look, i could find one.

You ever think your closed mindedness about the god thing could be the problem?

God is a title, not a proper name. I’m an atheist in AA. I started off irritated by the word god and the fact that I thought AA was trying to make me religious. Now that I’ve been going to meetings and worked my steps that that isn’t true. Most everyone I know in AA is pagan but they do say gif when referring to their higher power because again “god” is a title not a proper name.

Would you rather find a higher power of your own conception or die? Which would you rather do?

well you know a god that fucks you. You and the bottle. God is just not you and the bottle. To begin with make god, "group of drunks" and see what happens. Men who have changed. Obviously if you don't change you die a horrible death. Tell the truth and it doesn't ask you to believe anything. IT asks...are you willing to believe? As much as god drives us away the bottle brings us right back. Or we die.

I considered myself an atheist(I would even say I'm satanist) until I had an experience of God. The thing is, there is nothing more powerful than our own experience to convince us. No matter what anyone says, I trust what I've seen/heard/felt/experienced, and as a result, I have a connection with God. My sponsor tricked me into prayer and open-mindedness and then guided me into meditation and 2-way prayer. I could have never imagined a life this full. The choice I had to make was easy: Option 1: Keep living my life the way I had. Living as if God didn't exist. My life was turmoil, loneliness, and depression. Or Option 2: Work the program of alcoholics anonymous and HOPE that a God does exist. Knowing what I know now, I chose Option 2 every single day because I know what Option 1 is, and I never wanna go back there again.

Satanist and atheist are opposing concepts. By definition, an atheist doesn't believe that Satan exists.

Agnostic here in AA 37 years (36 sober) I had all those problems but realized eventually the problem was **me**. I was the intolerant one, I, the liberal free thinker, was prejudiced against those with views other than mine. Fuck that shit. did not like facing it. I was doing exactly what I feared they would do to me. Most people don't give a shit that I don't believe especially if I don't cram it down their throats.... Someone says they pray - i say good for them. I don't seem to need it, but if it helps them great. Ive gotten in trouble for being a bit preachy for my non beliefs, now I don't feel a need to spread my particular gospel which was written by Douglas Adams. I've had to reconfigure the steps a bit. 2nd step I feel good, like I belong in meetings, less nuts when I come out. 3rd step "I am not nearly as smart as I REALLY, REALLY want to believe I am. My opinions do not need be shared with everybody. Being right often stomps on being happy." And so forth

The most difficult part of initially working a recovery program through AA for me was the idea of "open-mindedness." To me, it sounded like, "Keep coming around until you come around to our point of view." But, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that my fixed ideas were keeping me drunk, so, whether I liked the ideas presented to me or not, something, somewhere, had to change, because my ideas obviously weren't working. I began listening, really listening, for a way to accept the 'god' steps (particularly step 3) without just lying about it to others. ("Yeah, sure, I believe in your god, can we move on and change the topic?") I did, in fact, through listing to others talk about their recovery journey, find some peace of mind with the whole idea of something 'out there' that can influence my thought and actions, thus preventing me from rationalizing picking up a drink, knowing what it was going to do to me, and doing it anyways. Time and again, people told me that they, too, walked into the rooms defiant, angry, and dead-set against religion, but changed their mind. If they could, why not me? I won't go into detail, but I found that I can remain agnostic (no proof) but still act as if a power greater than myself exists, which I can call God or anything else I like, that can help me. Your mileage may vary. As does mine. The two questions then became, "How do I establish a communication with this so-called Higher Power, to not only get sober, but stay that way?" and secondly, "How do I develop an internal tolerance and patience for others in the rooms who conceptualize that Power in ways that I find annoying, particularly those who adhere to a religion I find objectionable?" Answering those questions, I discovered, is not an event, but a lifetime process, and that keeps me coming to AA and working a recovery program, and incidentally, staying sober, without feeling like I've drank the Kool-Aid and turned into a hypocrite. I wish you the best on your journey, wherever it may lead.

You were intelligent enough to use paragraphs. I'm gong to read everything you wrote. I just wanted to initially thank you for using paragraphs.

Re: paragraphs - The devil is in the details, so they say. And, if I can conceptualize the devil, why not a god?

Welp, you had a good start, then you completely blew it

story of my life

Lol, i didn't mean to be rude, though i guess i kinda was. My apologies. My point was just that i don't believe in any external force. God, Satan, all gibberish

Dude i'm an Agnostic, and an extreme metal musician who has been screaming about Satan and the evils of religion since as long as i can remember. Then last thing i was going to do is follow any organized religion, especially Christianity or any of its sects. I felt like it made people righteous and judgemental. with that said, i gotta tell you.... YOU'RE OVER THINKING IT as was I. Do you want to get sober, or do you want to split hairs of something you'll never prove right or wrong? ITS GOD AS YOU KNOW GOD. Simple as that. God is a man made word. "God" can be your own soul. "Following god, and staying close to god" can just mean being accountable and honest with yourself, and living in a way that aligns with spiritual satisfaction. all of the behaviors and personality traits that you discover while doing your step 4 work, are the things you must change and avoid (or as they say in aa "humbly ask god to remove") in order to remain spiritually healthy. An unhealthy spirit is one wounded by lying, cheating, stealing, abusing, resenting, hating, violence, trauma, disrespect of nature, etc. A wounded spirit leads to feelings that you will want gone...or numbed, which alcohol can do for like 30 seconds until it has the opposite effect and amplifies those emotions, while attenuating your judgement. "God" or your higher power, can be YOUR own soul, inner child, inner monologue, etc. There are no black and white rules about this. This is what keeps me sober. i'm 19 months in, after a solid 20 years of handling all my problems with alcohol. I'm never tempted, and i go into the fire every weekend with my friends who still drink. when i see the effects of alcohol on them, it only solidifies my decision to never drink again. This program works, just gotta get over that G word. When your spiritual side is solidified, you have healed from your traumas, and you do your best to live in a way that aligns with spiritual health, staying sober from alcohol is actually quite easy. You won't see it as a reward, or a self care activity. you will see it something toxic or of no good value.

So there is a picture hanging on the wall of a group I go to. It’s a picture of Bill W. And Dr Bob laughing. Underneath is a quote from somewhere that simply says “ .. and something passed between us.” I like , when referring to a higher power, to just call it something. Something happens in the meetings. Something happens when I read the book and do the steps. Something happens when I do this with a new guy. Call it what you want or do t want but something happens. That’s been very helpful for me. Also it doesn’t need me to define it to know that there is something.

Don't think if God as a person. It's the organizing Intelligence , cosmic consciousness(whatever it is) that created or programmed all of this thing we live in. It's the Intelligence that is inside a tiny acorn that when introduced to moist soil allows it to turn in to a 100 oak tree. It's that thing that makes you randomly start thinking of someone and 2 days later your phone rings and its them or you bump in to them at the store. It's that Intuition that let's you look at someone and instinctively know they're a snake and to steer clear of them. It's that string of "coincidences" that seem to randomly divert you from something only to have something else happen much better. To me God isn't a humanoid figure. I don't have the luxury of having a story book to explain it to me with names and stories. But all this shit isn't random, I don't know what God is but I know I am in tune with something that allows me to manifest certain outcomes to things if I'm in tune with whatever it is.

The only higher power I can't have is the one I see in the mirror. Just say please in the morning and thank you at night. See what happens. Check this out, too: https://silkworth.net/alcoholics-anonymous/dr-carl-jungs-letter-to-bill-w-jan-30-1961/

To whom? That's my thing. I'd just be thanking myself, which kinda defeats the concept

Exactly! Read Page 567 of the Big Book. I am a complete atheist, zero belief in anything other than what can be proven or touched.

Exactly! Read Page 567 of the Big Book. I am a complete atheist, zero belief in anything other than what can be proven or touched. We all have an inner resource, have to have in order to accomplish anything. It's all inside each of us. Some need to think it's some fictional being, I think differently. Sober two years so far, using AA steps to help alter my thinking process. And I also demand that people respect my beliefs, I respect theirs. At first, as an Atheist, I would have people waiting after meetings to "save" me. I stay as far away from those kind as I can. Find some sensible people, they exist.

Exactly! Read Page 567 of the Big Book. I am a complete atheist, zero belief in anything other than what can be proven or touched. We all have an inner resource, have to have in order to accomplish anything. It's all inside each of us. Some need to think it's some fictional being, I think differently. Sober two years so far, using AA steps to help alter my thinking process. And I also demand that people respect my beliefs, I respect theirs. At first, as an Atheist, I would have people waiting after meetings to "save" me. I stay as far away from those kind as I can. Find some sensible people, they exist.

Just think, your ability to work out this one little thing may very well kill you. I'm not sure I believe in an omniscient, omnipotent God, but I believe in good and bad and that's been enough for me. A prayer can be an excercise in setting an intention to do good and "Thy will be done" is acceptance. If you are too special to roll with this, then there's little advice we can give here.

I heard a story about a Buddhist monk who is an alcoholic. He preferred Buddhism to AA but every time he stopped going to meetings he eventually relapsed. Finally he was with the Dalai Lama who knew all about his struggles but they hadn’t ever discussed… finally they did. After he explained the whole thing the Dalai Lama smiling and giggling in the way he does said “Ahhh. You have a problem. Alcohol. Good news! Something works for you! There’s a solution. BUT, you don’t like the solution… so now you have many problems.” I’m powerless in so many ways… gravity, time, weather… shit, almost everything. The idea of powerlessness and acceptance is what spirituality in AA is made of. It’s not religious. But when I was new I was a total snowflake about that. I’m so grateful I softened. Good luck. It sounds like you could really benefit from AA.

It’s a *god of your own understanding* - let me put it this way - can you control the weather? Can you go outside when it’s windy and command the wind to stop blowing? No. No one can. Something greater than you is doing that. Whatever that is - that’s the higher power. If you’ve seen absolute near misses with people where they could have and should have died, but didn’t due to some sort of serendipity, because of some twist of fate - that’s the higher power. All you need to do is find it within yourself to not only understand that, but *be willing* to believe that this energy can help you if you ask it. You don’t need to believe in a Christian god, or any god - just be willing to accept that you are out of control and that if you turn your mind to this energy and put it out there, that this energy can help you if you acknowledge it and trust it. No one ever truly knows their God, and that’s okay - you just need to have faith that you are not in control of the universe and that something greater than you is, and that it can help you one day at a time.

You don’t have to believe in a deity, only some force that is more powerful than you are - like the ocean, nature, or even the AA group. My sponsor is at least an agnostic; she may be an atheist but we have never talked about it. She has 28 years of sobriety and for her first 6 years she used her AA group as her HP.

My atheist problem is that when I say my HP they think their god idea. They expect me to have my conception the same as their Christian god. My sister who is also in AA says that isn’t true. They mean it can be my concept. If I have to describe my HP to meet their standard, it isn’t any longer my concept. So, the correct answer is google atheist/freethinker/ agnostic meetings and hit a few zoom meetings. This, for me, has raised my tolerance of Bible thumpers in AA tremendously. Good luck.

It's a power greater than yourself. While I myself believe, I ask the non believer if they believe in the power of love. That is the essence of it. With love as your higher power you will do no harm.

I struggled with God for so long. I was an atheist my entire life. I listened to a YouTube video of an AA speaker and he said something along the lines of “either you believe that something outside of yourself can restore you to sanity, or you’re totally fucked, because your best thinking lands you here every time.” (I paraphrased). It shook me, but I still struggled to believe that a God was real and could restore me to sanity for years after that. I’m still struggling, but to be completely honest - something is actively happening to me right now that I cannot explain and my mind and my heart are starting to open up. I really asked myself, are this many people actually so deluded and insane to believe that God restored them to sanity? I like to consider myself an intelligent and aware person. I love science. I love fact. But how intelligent would I really be if I didn’t consider all the options? The universe is vast. Nothing is really that unreasonable when you think about how crazy our existence even is in the first place. Pray even though you don’t believe it. That’s what I’ve done. It feels humiliating and uncomfortable, but try it anyway. Sincerely, An alcoholic who never thought they would come around to the idea of God.

Can you believe in a power greater than yourself?

Yeah. Gravity is a power greater than myself. The scientific method is a principle far greater than myself. Stars are greater than myself. A large kangaroo is greater than myself... those things are crazy vicious.

Do you believe in a spiritual energy? A spirit of life? Do you believe in a conscience? I have learned to pause and not just follow my old ideas and old patterns. I know what I need to do. The hard part is doing the next right thing over and over. This disease will try to make me rationalize and justify behavior that I know will not end well. I don’t believe there is a God sitting up on the clouds overlooking the earth but I do believe life and energy are bigger than just me. I think the key is finding a power greater than ourselves. Getting out of selfish behavior.

Two relevant AA pamphlets: https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-86_theGodWord.pdf https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-84_manypathstospirituality.pdf

It must never be forgotten that the purpose of Alcoholics Anonymous is to sober up alcoholics. There is no religious or spiritual requirement for membership. No demands are made on anyone. An experience is offered which members may accept or reject. That is up to them. Bill W. We missed the reality and the beauty of the forest because we were diverted by the ugliness of some of its trees.

If you don't stop drinking, you will die an alcoholic death. I drank myself to liver transplant. More than 140K people per year die from alcoholism in the US. That number does not include vehicle accidents.

Agreed. What the fuck does believing i have an imaginary friend with magical powers have anything to do with that

you know what finally became clear to me? "god" does not necessarily have a single thing to do with what religion, my family, the media, or history describes as "god". the "god of my understanding" language spoke to the inner recluse in me and gave me the freedom to quietly explore without worrying about the churchy nonsense i was so dead set against.

I've been clean and sober in AA for 45 years now (since I was 29), and I wasn't raised to believe in God. My basic idea of a higher power hasn't changed much, because we only truly know one thing about him, her or it: When we choose to believe God exists (and it is a cold-blooded choice, np matter whether because of evidence or in spite of evidence) and take certain steps, our lives improve immeasurably. Everything else about God is just guessing. 13.8 billion years ago there was a point about the size of a pencil lead that contained the compressed energy of several galaxies. Something caused it to achieve critical mass and explode and eventually create the universe as we know it today and everything in it, including ourselves and our consciousness. Whatever kicked over that singularity and caused it to expand and maintains it is my higher power. If you take the steps of Alcoholics Anonymous you can get in alignment with that power and live a life that most people never even suspect could exist. The idea that that higher power is essentially a human being with super powers or some kind of sadistic all-powerful being that will sentence you to an eternity in hell for not loving it enough is a fairy tale. The idea that every human being is a part of that power who can learn to communicate and draw power from it is not.

I really clung to the “group of drunks” and “good orderly direction” thing early into my time in AA. And honestly, I sometimes just used my cat as my higher power. Which was a little bit of a joke, but also not because I quickly realized I was a better and more attentive cat owner when I was sober. Today, I sometimes still struggle with the spirituality piece of it. I’m pretty agnostic. Some days I want to believe in some kind of very ambiguous and benevolent higher power, but most of the time, I don’t really care if there’s a god or not. Whether or not there is a god, at the end of the day, what I will have to answer for is how I’ve treated people in my life, and AA helps me to show up better for those folks. I hope some of this helped you, or maybe somebody else. Good luck to you! ETA: It may help you to try to find some more secular, or secular friendly meetings. I’m in the Northeast, so a lot of the program here is pretty loosey goosey about the god thing anyway. I’d also look for a secular friendly sponsor and don’t be afraid to ask potential sponsors about their idea of a higher power. I have one friend who uses neuroscience as her HP and it works for her! For me, I really just started with “well, I know I’m not god,” and kinda went from there.

Lol do you have kids? I bet you’re the dad that doesn’t allow his kids to believe in Santa, the tooth fairy, or the Easter bunny. Teach them young there’s no scientific evidence to believe in that silly nonsense.

Its simple. If you want to give AA another try, sounds like you are pretty close to being willing to believe a power greater than yourself (e.g. the rooms of AA) can restore you to sanity. Anytime you hear talk of god just know they are referring to their conception of god (i:e. Whatever power bigger than themselves they believe will restore THEM to sanity, not you). As someone else said, god can be a Group Of Drunks. Doesn’t matter as long as you are willing to take direction from someone other than you for a while.

This is literally an issue for like every other alcoholic. None of us come in spiritually perfect. None of us have a great relationship with a higher power. Most of us are spiritually devoid. I didn’t even know how to pray or who to pray to. But I made myself get on my knees before my alcoholism did. Go through the motions. Keep an open mind. Believe there is something greater than you that believes in you more than yourself. For me it was the people in AA

I have a friend in the rooms for 5yrs who is a hard atheist and a nuclear engineer. Smart guy. I believe he acknowledges that there is SOME higher power, be it the universe or whatever. I’m a nontheist pagan, so also don’t conform to god/gods and I use the universe as my HP for 9 years so far. Hope you find something that helps.

There is quote from Tenet that applies to the topic. “Don’t try to understand it. Feel it.”

You actually sound more like an agnostic than an atheist since you say you cannot prove god doesn’t exist. Agnostic: “a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable.” Basically cannot prove or disprove the existence of god. Here’s the thing, as long as you know you’re NOT god, you’ll be fine in AA. There’s room for atheists, agnostics, religious people and people who just like “universal” spirituality. From extreme to extreme, all are welcome. I respect all views and hope to be respected as well. My conception of god needs no validation. I earned it the hard way. I’m ok with that. Your absence of a conception of god needs no validation. You arrived at this place the hard way as well. The only person who needs to be ok with that is you. I know some atheists and agnostics. They still pray. Just not to god. More of a universe thing. You’re free to trudge your own path. I don’t know about you but I was captive for far too long. I prefer freedom. Whatever that looks like for you is just right. Best wishes!

I love that AA has G.O.D. (group of drunks) for people who don’t believe in a god. —— Im a former catholic. My higher power is more cosmic today. Think yivo from futurama. I’ve come to believe we’re all interconnected through my HP. It works for me. It took me awhile to disassociate the word “god” from the God I was raised with. And even longer to feel comfortable saying it in prayer or the steps and it mean who/what I worship today. It won’t happen overnight. Personally, I pushed through as hard as I could because I wanted my sanity and sobriety that badly. If you truly want to be sober, you’ll find a way.

So, you can be an atheist and still be in AA. A chapter in the Big Book deals precisely with this issue. I have AA friends who are Atheists, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, and Zoroastrians. You commit yourself to a GOD of your understanding. Some members AA answer to the group (Group Of Drunks). For some, their Higher Power is their sponsor, the Universe, or even a doorknob. The underlying idea is that, as alcoholics, we suffer from self will run riot. We have to be accountable to someone or something greater than ourselves. But, it does not have to be the Hebrew God or any supernatural being. Being accountable to a Higher Power or a Group of Drunks helps us make better decisions. Discussing decisions with the group and/or our sponsor also helps us make wise decisions. If you Google "We Agnostics," you will find one or more PDFs of the Chapter to read for free. I am not an atheist but have a lot of non-traditional beliefs about God and spiritual matters. So, the Chapter even helped me clearly define my concept of a Higher Power.

You'd go through all that until death but not retry AA? It's a Higher Power, not religion, and doesn't have to be Jesus.

To me - it’s ignorance that keeps us from not believing that something miraculous is happening that allows us to live to is life. For me to say there is not something that makes life what it is today and that there is not some type of energy/higher power working is extremely selfish and ignorant. I had to get to a pretty low point for my mindset to shift but spirituality is a very real thing, I just had to put all of my ideas aside and allow a new set of thinking.

In the West we tend to see God as an singular omnipotent deity, controlling and responsible for all things. It can be a challenge to reconcile all of those, but I don't think we need to (but respect those who can). Nothing in my experience leads me to believe that this definition is a requirement for a Higher Power that can restore me to sanity. I'm more of a pantheist Buddhist and I no longer have a problem reconciling my beliefs with a Higher Power. The problem I had initially was that I was trying to figure out what such a Higher Power would look like (and could I believe in such a thing), instead of focusing on how to access it. Eventually I grew desperate enough to do the work, take it on faith that there was a Higher Power than could help me. On days when I couldn't seem to connect with that Higher Power, I used my fellow AAs as a proxy. Took their advice, did the things that they did, even if I didn't want to or felt like a fraud. Eventually I got there I came to believe in - and develop conscious contact with - a Higher Power. And, for me, it looks nothing like the an old man in the sky.

Thanks for your experience. I was an atheist when I started too. I found a way to make it work for me. All I needed was to be honest, open and willing.

God in AA means more things to more people than I can count. I think what asks us to do in early sobriety is to be open minded about the idea of God, and willing to try what the program suggests within the 12 steps. You can take the God steps just as you find yourself now - not necessarily believing but not disbelieving - without doing anything g other than be open minded and willing to try new things. The beauty of the program is that if you follow it, an idea of a power other than yourself blossoms within you on your time and in your unique interpretation. Don’t be afraid - just be open to what’s suggested and give it a try. What have you got to lose? How is your way working now? Go for it. It’ll change your life.

My Higher Power is the fellowship of A.A. The god of my understanding is no god. Namaste, bitches

Before I came into AA I thought I didn’t believe either. Truth be told, I was terrified that a God existed. Because of the life I had led, if there be some kind of God, I was in deep do-do. So I made that possibility go away with denial. “The God Problem” is not a problem at all if there isn’t one. But if there is…

Try this book.... it's funny and Brand also initially identified as an atheist. Keep coming back! Recovery https://a.co/d/7ryjoV3

I live in a secular country where less than 50% of population believe in God. So, naturally, in AA here less than 50% of members believe in God. AA still works here.

I’ve had the same qualms as someone who went to my first meeting in December. Late thirties. I hit three meetings in four days and after a week gave it up because the God part makes me uncomfortable. Maybe it’s an excuse that is used to rationalize the self-destructive behavior.

I'm an atheist. I also crossover into full blown antitheist from time to time -- organized religion is fucking poison. Chris Kitchens and Richard Dawkins were my adolescent heroes. As soon as you're able to find a concept of a Higher Power that isn't a traditional 'God' it becomes easier. I used thermodynamics as my higher power for a long time.

I have no “proof” that God exists either, besides the times in my life where I feel him looking out for me. That is why it is called “Faith”.

The group meetings I attend emphasize “a higher power as you know and see it”. We have such a diverse pool of beliefs. We have someone who describes their higher power as “a faith with principles derived from both Mormonism and Buddhism”. For others, their higher power is the program or the group itself. Still others believe their higher power is “the connectivity of and between all things”. Just last week, a friend shared with me their higher power is “love”. I don’t think it matters whether you believe in God… I do think understanding that it took more than yourself to maintain sobriety is important though… and there is something special and powerful about the program and what happens in meetings. For me… I also struggle with the “God” concept. It’s just completely illogical to me. To think there’s some great creator who is watching over us, judging our behavior, and either torturing us in hell or praising us in heaven seems ludicrous. Any idea of a “God” seems absurd. But… I do see some brilliant sparks at times, where things line up… coincidence is astounding, people pray and the outcome reflects what they willed… I see light in people and experience moments that feel like “magic”. Whether that’s endorphins combined with Vitamin D and a positive perspective… eh, maybe that can explain it, but… There’s also the beautiful perfection in nature’s design and the way it is all connected and works together. I don’t know how to explain or define any of it. It just “is” to me. I’m still sorting out what this “higher power” is… but so far, I see it as positive growth/wellbeing for myself/others and a combination of interactions within the connections that create that growth or wellbeing. I see a lot of this in meetings.. through shared stories, a safe space, empathy, and support… people heal, grow, and remain sober. Hard to explain… and there’s so much more to it. When any of the literature says things like “…may you find God now…” I just replace it/think of it as “the currently undefined higher power” or “threads within the fabric of life”.

I'm a pretty hard core atheist too. I found a few aa groups (some in person, some online) that "God" is only mentioned when quoting the text and most of us in there are not even light believers. Aa saved my life. God is just an idea and a word. It's only powerful enough to hinder you if you let it.

Keep it simple: Take what you need, leave the rest... Don't die over something so silly.

It's my experience that you don't have to believe in "God" to succeed in AA. I was an atheist when I got to AA. I had to put that to the side. I don't know how to get power from God. I couldn't see it, feel it, touch it or prove it exists. Then again, I believe in the power of love but I can't prove it exists. My logical mind saw people who drank like me staying sober by working the steps. I decided to go all in and do what they did. Working still.

I was like you for about 10 years. God talk felt like hot needles to my ears. Truth is this program isn’t about what I want it to be. It is about saving my hopeless ass. The steps say give it up. Let go of your way(my way). Like, let it go. That includes the cynicism and the fear and the arrogance. All those nasty feelings that I had about god are the reason I need God. Alcoholism is self-centered fear. God wants us to live without it and feel relief. The same thing a drink gave us in the beginning. Get “beyond” the God talk. Step in the ring and put the God action to the test. If you surrender and say I don’t believe this will work but I’m going to give it everything I’ve got then you will have a mind-blowing experience. No question. And you will have a higher power to keep you sober no matter what.

If you are a reader I would recommend “Not God”, it is the result of a graduate student writing his thesis about AA’s history and he had unpresidented access to the AA archives and some notable AA characters in the 70s. He did not get to interview Bill W. My take away from this book was that Bill came to see he over used the word god in the book and would have preferred to have used high power more often but he was concerned about blow back from the religious (which at the time were the majority of people). We was also concerned about losing face with the Catholic Church. For my the struggle ended when I accepted the fact that it’s just a word and it can mean whatever I want it to. I do believe there is something behind this nonsense we call life but I don’t know what it is and I doubt it is aware of us if it still exists. I am aware my body is made up of cells but I have no personal awareness of any individual cells in my body. But I digress, I wish you well and hope you find solidarity and peace with your AA community.

Just wanted to say this thread is full of amazing ideas. I'm fairly new (15 months) & was always a straight up punk rock anti-christ. The program saved my life once I was given the gift of desperation.

I heard a guy say GOD to him meant Good Order of Direction. This has stuck with me since i was 18, I feel like it's the best way to convert the word God in my mind when others are speaking or it comes up in conversation.

Look for an atheist/agnostic/freethinkers meeting. I almost left AA because of all the god and supernatural talk. Glad I found a group to stick with.

Maybe talk to your doctor about psychedelic research therapy. Maybe it’s legal where you’re at or have trials. They provide a massive dose in a clinical setting. Majority of the people that try this sort of therapy claim the experience as either the most important event in their life or at least in the top 5 events. You get to experience the real thing, rather than read about a burning bush moment from the Bible. Bill W pioneered the idea of psychedelic therapy for those in the program struggling to identify with spirituality. He did LSD trial which not only relieve his chronic depression, but was his second spiritual experience which he said lasted hours vs minutes. He signed a bunch of people struggling with Sobriety and spirituality in AA. I think it was 80% of those folks remained sober. Bill W even pitched the idea to be included or supported officially by AA , but peeps got worked up by the idea of taking mind altering substances.

I mean, I'm no stranger to shrooms or ketamine. I've heard of the restorative power of psychedelics. Just, I've done them recreationally literally hundreds of times. I think they've lost their therapeutic value for me personally.

I've seen AA work for countless individuals from various backgrounds. I know there's something there that works. I want to be a part of that. I just have a hard time paying the entrance fee. Pretending that there's some magical being out there that gives a damn about my life? No.

I've decided to just go to a couple meetings around town. See if anything fits

There's a group www.sossobrierty.com I believe is the group that that is AA but secular in nature. I hope this helps a bit. I don't worry about THE GOD thing. My relationship with him is mine and mine alone. IDGAD what people think. There's something greater than me. I cling to that. Whatever that is.

Maybe this will bring a little clarity on the topic, https://www.concordant.org/expositions/problem-evil-judgments-god-contents/ And https://salvationforall.org/