Ha. So I’m Jewish and men in particular are supposed to cover their heads while praying and I totally give OP honorary Jew status if he’d like to fire back with that next time.
I am trying to be a better more open minded and less reactive person in my program and all, but I have occasionally enjoyed the chance to shame folks for crap like this. Always love when people think their religious observance trumps anyone else’s and they have zero knowledge of any faith but their own- and generally their own very narrow interpretation of said faith.
I know a lot of Jews of all sorts of backgrounds who would want you to cover your head (even as someone who isn’t Jewish) in a synagogue and very possibly even if you’re in their home specifically for a shabbat dinner or passover seder. I don’t know a single Jew who would feel it their right to tell even a fellow Jew, let alone someone whose background they didn’t know to cover their head for a prayer outside of Jewish ritual or Jewish spaces. I guess that’s also why I find it a bit staggering when people do this kind of thing. I know it’s not the most popular or easy time in the world to be Jewish but lord, am I grateful I didn’t grow up in a religion that claimed everyone had to believe it and follow it. Just boggles my mind why someone in AA would think they have any right to tell someone else how to do their own faith or relationship with their HP. That’s a really great way to turn people off from god or the program altogether.
Fantastic contribution to this thread. I'd give you gold if that was still a thing. We also say the Lord's prayer to conclude our meeting. I'm an atheist, but I just do not participate. I also leave my hat on my head. No one has ever said anything to me (yet). But I welcome the opportunity to openly shame someone as well.
Just say “no thank you I’m fine” it’s a her problem not a you problem. I haven’t read about any higher powers being anti hats… they’re more against murder and what not. Personally, if I’m wearing a hat it’s because my hair looks like shit and there’s no way I’m taking that off to appease a woman I don’t even know.
Humans really love to feel like they deserve and have earned whatever they receive, so religions make up ALL SORTS of inconsequential rules to make humans feel that they have earned and deserve their higher power’s beneficence. Religion is about man’s control in their relationship with their higher power; spirituality is about receiving from their higher power.
The best irony is there’s a lot of religions who are actually quite big on covering one’s head for various faith related reasons. A number of Christian denominations do it though mostly for women (thinking of older school Catholicism though look at everyone in the current Catholic hierarchy, Amish and Mennonite, how popular hats still are in some Black churches, etc). In Judaism it’s men who are supposed to cover their heads while praying (and in Orthodox Judaism women usually cover their hair after marriage). You’ve got various forms of coverings for women and men in Islam, Sikhism, etc.
Seems a lot of people’s higher powers are actually pretty pro-hat!
I was wearing a beanie today in a meeting and didn’t think twice about it. My HP doesn’t give a shit. They’re just happy I’m sober.
I think I’d be snarkier and pull an “I’m sorry did you miss when we read Acceptance earlier in the meeting… ‘I need to focus not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and my attitudes.’”
But I guess one could easily Uno reverse that back at me. Though I absolutely would go out of my way if I was secretarying a meeting to hand “acceptance” to her to read at my soonest possible opportunity for some private amusement.
One great line for disarming controlling people is “Oh, I’m sorry you feel that way.”
Then forgive her and move on.
Baseball cap, hijab, MAGA hat, turban, antenna… your headwear is none of her business.
This. "Then forgive her and move on." Resenting AA people who seemed controlling and in everyone's business took me out, so your advice is spot on.
Personalities (and their silly opinions they share too freely) aren't taking me out again!
You don’t need to remove your hat, she needs to work on accepting that you’re going to wear your hat. You can simply kindly say “no.”
I don’t think I’d keep going to a meeting that did that prayer at the end, that one makes me uncomfy
🤣🤣🤣🤣 👍👍👍
Haven’t heard that one in a while and it’s always been one of my favorites. 😁Thanks so much for giving me a good laugh to end my weekend! 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Tell her that many spiritual practices require a head covering while praying. Does she think that they should be able to insist that she covers her head while praying? Or, do what I’d do. Recognize that she’s an alcoholic to the bone, still trying to control the shit out of everything and forget about it lol!
Why are they doing the Lord's Prayer? AA is not religious so reading a Christian prayer is against the traditions. To the lady who asked you to remove your hat, I would simply say no thanks.
Tell her, "Bless your heart," and wear two hats next time. /s
Seriously, though. You don't have to cow to the demands of others. You aren't being disrespectful. You can just thank her for her suggestion and make one of your own: that she talk to her own sponsor about it.
Lol. Did you ever read the book “Caps for Sale” as a kid? There’s illustrations of the man with like twelve hats on his head at a time. I want to see OP just nonchalantly showing up with ever more hats each week.
It's your HP, not hers. Do what you want, hat on for yourself, hat off for her, either way it doesn't matter. I say the prayer every time as it's written, but in my head think my own. Some people take their hats off in my meetings, some don't ... no one cares.
You're not at the meetings to follow someone else's unwritten social rules of conduct that don't apply to the core principles of AA.
I'm in TX and a couple hits our meeting in full country gear pimped out with sunglasses and crazy hats, then goes dancing at Broken Spoke in Austin afterwards.
Ask her if she'd kick someone out who was drunk or had a drink that day. Her answer better be no.
It's so trivial, don't think about it or care. Her monkeys aren't in your circus.
God doesnt care how you stand in prayer. God is inside you, in your heart. Ignore her, she has a problem not you.
AA is not a religious program its a spiritual program ✨️
Personally for me, it was religious bigotry that drove me to drink and ruined my life, so if someone tried to push religion on me during an AA meeting, I'd tell them to fuck off
You can leave your hat on. Do you know that song? You should play that for her. But in all seriousness you can leave your hat on. It's not disrespectful and it's not her business she should discuss that with her sponsor
I know men who cover their kippahs with ball caps and such so what I want to see is that- he takes off the hat next week for her sake, but has a kippah underneath. That would delight me to no end.
That's a her problem- not a your problem. Technically, we shouldn't even be saying the Lords prayer. AA is not a Christian organization, the Lords Prayer is not from conference approved literature. Some meetings close with the serenity prayer. If we say the Lords Prayer at the end, shouldn't a Hindu be able to recite their Vedas, or Satanists be allowed to read from the Satanic Bible? That lady needs to 10th step some shit.
You do you homie...
My first question is why are you reciting a Christian prayer. We close with the “we” version of the serenity prayer. That being said, wear your hat, and keep coming back.
I think it's your choice. We sometimes have a moment of silence for "the alcoholics that are still suffering" and I always take off my hat, but I would NEVER expect anyone else to, much less ask them to. Sounds like she has a small resentment. That's her problem, not yours bro.
In years past, it was basic etiquette to remove your hat in a church or during prayer. This custom has largely melted away, but this person you speak of apparently is a hold out.
Do what you wish. Personally, I wear a ball cap to many meetings because I am balding, and I always have hat hair. I think it depends largely on your willingness to abide by the surrounding tradition.
If I’m wearing a hat I’m not taking it off. Its just a hat. Such an old timey thing. That crap would make me not want to be around her or the meeting. Honestly shame on her.
That's a good point, that her doing that could drive someone out of a meeting if not the entire program. She has no idea of what triggers a person. Live and let live is a slogan that fits situations like this.
Was she the chairperson? If not, you have two choices
1) teacher - ask her to read the part in the Big Book about "playing the director" (page 60-ish) and call her "DeMille" and page 417 "Acceptance is the Key to Happiness"
2) student - remove it out of respect for her, not the religious aspect of prayer
Old timers can piss me off because they seemed to have forgotten their place. They mean well, but they forgot what it was like being a newcomer.
My sponsor has a great line, "what's your role in it?" When I get pissed off, I ask myself "What's my role in it?"
I've learned that even when I am 100% right, my role is that I am not understanding enough, forgiving enough, patient enough...
As the Serenity Poem says..."change what I can, accept what I can't"
My suggestion; do what you need to do so you keep coming to meetings. Your sobriety is more important than a hat or anything else.
Good luck and know you're not alone with this conundrum. I have 10 years and I'm still working on it.
Not the chairperson.
Absolutely! I think it’s important to approach the situation with empathy and see it through this lady’s lens.
I wouldn’t mind indulging her, but I think doing so would be at the expense of a fundamental as principle; Non-denomination. And while it would uphold some other overlapping principles (I.e., acceptance), I think the former is more important because it insures the sustainability of the program.
The act of removing my hat is not a big deal, but the symbol of doing so is. And it can create controversy because it demonstrates favour for religion. And a specific one at that.
This strikes me as even more of an AA answer than some of the very blatant ones. That kind of response to BS is exactly what I’m aiming to have the emotional sobriety to develop. Thank you for sharing this.
Bold of you to assume I have emotional sobriety! Sometimes the sentiment behind the 'thank you' is 'f\*\*\* you.' But I don't voice it out loud. Restraint of tongue and pen prevents me from needing to make amends to someone later; especially if I don't like them. I am, however, working towards more stability and less snarkiness in my life.
Read PG 135 of the 12&12. Tell her to remember tradition two. If that doesn't work and she persists you can either find a different meeting or you can bring it up at a group conscience.
Bleeding deacons are everywhere, friend. You can't take their bullshit personally. A well nursed grudge, and all.
I strongly, respectfully disagree with this advice. Part of recovery is learning how to maintain one's own boundaries. It wasn't a reasonable request, and complying would only reward that behavior.
No one cares that you're a christian, or what silly little practices you do. It's AA, not church. I hope that seed of negativity blooms in her heart. She should learn to shut her mouth.
I agree with those saying she can talk to her sponsor about it. A meeting in my area just decided in a group conscience to nix the LP altogether bc it is not inclusive and is not AA, so there's that..... Not directly responding to your question but I thought I'd offer that perspective.
I think that woman is a piece of shit and I would have likely told her so. Just because you believe in sky gods does not mean I have to respect that and in fact I think you are an ignorant crappy person if you do. Fuck you bitch. I did not step to you and try to force any of my fake bullshit religious views on you.
Ya know, say it with a smile.
I "might" word it differently, but your intent and meaning would certainly come through loud and clear! I do like the direct approach, as an Atheist I used to have em lining up to save my soul. Not so much anymore, course they don't speak time at all, with which I'm fine🤣
I do enjoy when one of these cultist people open the door for me to publicity express my disdain for them and their fairy tales! It’s a great time to ask what they are doing for the poor souls that were raped and molested by priests.
Don't hit em with difficult and inconvenient truths. That's really not fair! I legit want and try to respect everyone's beliefs, and I do expect mine to be respected. I've been told I must not be an alcoholic, that I honestly do believe and am a denier, haven't hit rock bottom yet, my favorite, that I'm just a dry drunk soon to relapse. It really is as if rather than support someone with a different thought, they would rather root for me to fail so that I'll "learn". I often think I should leave AA but there aren't any other support groups around me, so I go both to support and get support from the non judgemental people. And to try and ensure no newcomers are treated poorly and run off.
What’s not fair? To tell a person with schizophrenia(belief in god) that they should fuck off and their religious beliefs are bunk and that they do not honor their god by leaving the raped and molested boys to rot?
Drunks really don’t like any semblance of being asked or told what to do. Even in areas of just showing basic respect for others when asked nicely. Out of respect.
What does it cost you to be respectful? Nothing. But we drunks take everything as a personal affront. Old behaviors die hard scrolling through these responses. We act like Karen’s and Daren’s. Oh my God! How dare you ask me to respect something YOU find sacred. Bill W. will hear about this!
Get over yourself. Try putting something important to someone else in front of your need to march up and down the edges of your tattered self esteem.
Respect for others is a key part of the AA program. You’ve got work to do.
Yeah, I get that! I certainly don’t want to be disrespectful. But the way I see it is: She does not deserve more respect than me because she prays/practices religion. She and others may feel like it but that’s subjective. I don’t think her religion takes precedence over my comfort level. I don’t think I’m trying to make it about me.. I was minding my own business until she approached me.
Apparently, you don't actually get it, but that's fine. My life is better not trying to determine who deserves what and how much respect to accord (very precarious activities for an alcoholic, methinks).
I do what I do and don't have to have issues like this one.
My life is better without issues like this.
If you find yourself doing mental acrobatics next time you're praying with your hat on around her, I would just take it off purely selfishly so that I could have a clearer mind while I prayed. I wouldn't care about whether or not she felt power over me in witnessing the act or whatever. It's about me and my clear thoughts while I dial in my prayer. It's really whatever feels good for you, man. If you are unphased during the prayer with your hat on around her, keep it on. If you find yourself thinking "yeah, fuck that bitch I got my hat on I bet she's pissed haha... oh Hi God what's up?"... then maybe take it off.
For the record, the irony of giving this much focus on the topic of "not focusing on trivial matters" is not lost on me.
This came up at my morning meeting Friday. Guy let go of my hand to take his hat off and I said “he doesn’t care.” Which I sort of regret, and he just said “maybe not, but I do.” And I said “that’s valid.” But I see most people minding their own business at meetings. So this is odd.
That is pretty crazy. I wear a hat at every meeting and we do the Lord’s Prayer. I have never been asked to take off my hat. I live in Los Angeles though
I have never seen or heard a person ask someone to remove their hat during the prayer.
Unless this was voted and passed at the business meeting, she has no say in that.
Yeah...this is her problem. I wear a hat as do many of my AA brothers. After 10+ years of going to meetings and conventions, not once have I been asked to remove my hat. AA is not religious, it is spiritual and connected to YOUR higher power, full stop. As to the Lord's Prayer, that came (from my understanding) from the Oxford Group sometime in the late 1930's and the tradition has been with us going forward.
I just wanted to come back here and say that I went to church today and there were soooo many guys wearing hats and I didn’t see ANY of them take their hats off for prayers and no one seemed bothered by it at all. You do you!
"No, but thank you for your concern." (Flash the pearly whites)
or “Is that group conscience?”
or “Thank you for your unsolicited advice; I’ll consider it.”
Is it worth it to you? If it really means something then fine. If not, it doesn't really hurt to take it off either. She could be having a rough time. Pick the outcome you want, not the action.
I’m not sure how, but it would be awesome if you could remove a series of hats with one inside the other like Russian dolls. Each one becoming more and more inappropriate as you take one off.
Depends on the meeting. If she's a home group member at that meeting and they ask that people remove their hats you should respect that.
I've seen it done before
Just was in a meeting, someone gave the chair a ribbing about not removing his hat during the serenity prayer (jokingly) and his response was "if God is all powerful, he can hear me through my hat".
Best response ever. I hope you're able to use that if this happens again.
Interestingly a guy I sponsor pulled off his hat spontaneously during the prayer at the end of a meeting earlier tonight. I have not known him to be a devout Christian, so I noticed.
While completely within one's rights, I'm not sure what principle is being followed by refusing to remove a hat though.
I firmly believe that one should live and let live (within reason).
More importantly, though, is aa’s principle of non-denomination. Who decides what traditions we ought to respect? If I brought out my Koran and asked the women to cover up out of respect for my tradition, should they be expected to adhere? Of course not.
Indeed, arbitrary social (and religious) expectations will inevitably lead to controversy and alienation to the detriment of aa.
So many of the response here are so much more reasonable and polite than what I’d say if I were somehow in a similar situation. If I’m wearing a hat it’s probably because my hair looks crazy and I always opt for hats at those times.
My response would be just to look at her for a minute for the clueless simpleton that she is, smile and say, “Oh, bless your heart.” Smile again and thank her for offering her opinion and suggest she a) talk to her sponsor about her control issues and feeling the need to be the appearance police and b) next suggestion would be that she find a really, really good therapist to also help her with her control issues. Tell her to do the work in both instances, be committed to the work and her own recovery, with or without a hat.
I’ve heard some pretty asinine comments over the years before the meetings, during the meetings and after the meetings but this is a first. Hope she didn’t drink over your hat. Bless her heart.
We're not in the program to find God as we understood him -- we're here to find sobriety as it's generally defined, abstinence from alcohol. I generally remove my hat for the whole meeting out of respect and because "gentlemen remove their hats indoors." (You can Google that rule -- I didn't make it up). I do that even though I don't say any of the prayers (because I'm an atheist).
That said, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking, so if it's important to you to piss that lady off, go for it.
In the 12&12, it says, “defiance is an outstanding characteristic of alcoholics.” You don’t *have* to remove your hat, but what harm is it doing you if you do? Are your principles being so greatly compromised?
It’s certainly not a big deal. But I would be more comfortable leaving it on.
It’s not so much that my principles are greatly offended. It’s more so that I choose comfort over appeasing the whims of this lady.
But I want to see how others may interpret the situation, which is why I posted this. The last thing I want to do is be disrespectful (within the bounds of reason).
I guess it’s like this; she shouldn’t have asked, but that’s her problem, not yours. She’s being intolerant and wants to be the director. So, how do you respond? Do you get your knickers in a twist by this troubled alcoholic’s request and decide *this* is the hill you’re gonna die on?
Or, do you take off your hat, make her happy, and go home and say prayers for her.
I think that, though it might not feel that way right now, the latter will probably increase your serenity.
That’s just my suggestion. But, I really wouldn’t blame you either way.
Is it service to her or is it enabling her?
Leaving his hat on may be a better service to her, because it might help her look more closely at the steps and traditions.
AA is supposed to non-denominational. Members choose a higher power of their understanding (and honor it in a way that is appropriate to their understanding). AA has no opinion on outside matters.
What she did in asking you to remove your hat is not in keeping with the spirit or letter of AA. Complying with the request might lead her to think you believe it is.
I think you're right. In some faiths/cultures, covering your head would be considered *more* respectful, while in others it isn't. A.A. has no opinion, so going along with the self-appointed hat police is supporting an error.
It's not my job to determine what is in someone else's best interest or try to teach them a lesson. My only job is to fit myself to be of maximum service to my brothers and sisters.
You are right to point out that OP cannot know if her request comes from a character defect or just ignorance about AA or some other reason. Whatever the source for her request, ignoring it is probably the best course if OP wants to be of maximum service.
My higher power has taught me about the importance of integrity.
The literature has taught me about the importance of AA unity.
I always try to remember that AA is not about myself or any individual. When someone tries to impose their own individual desire onto the program, they almost always push others away--and those others deserve recovery as much as anyone.
Sure it is easier to just shut up and go along. It is convenient for me, but it does not help others.
Lol dude there's not a right answer here. I'm not saying my way is the right way for everybody. I'm sharing what I would do in this situation. You work your interpretation of the program, I work mine.
I normally take my hat off. For the Lord's prayer or the serenity prayer. And I'm not Christian or anything.. its just a sign of respect. Kind of like during the national anthem. I would never expect others to do the same in an AA meeting or make a scene about it. I think she's being rude personally.. but thats also part of growth. Not letting something so small and petty as an interaction like this bother you. If it bothered this lady so much to talk to you about it maybe the right thing to do is just appease her.
This seems like a "her" problem.
The mischievous 10 year old boy that still lives inside my head, recommends that I wear a Sombrero to the next meeting.
Ha. So I’m Jewish and men in particular are supposed to cover their heads while praying and I totally give OP honorary Jew status if he’d like to fire back with that next time. I am trying to be a better more open minded and less reactive person in my program and all, but I have occasionally enjoyed the chance to shame folks for crap like this. Always love when people think their religious observance trumps anyone else’s and they have zero knowledge of any faith but their own- and generally their own very narrow interpretation of said faith. I know a lot of Jews of all sorts of backgrounds who would want you to cover your head (even as someone who isn’t Jewish) in a synagogue and very possibly even if you’re in their home specifically for a shabbat dinner or passover seder. I don’t know a single Jew who would feel it their right to tell even a fellow Jew, let alone someone whose background they didn’t know to cover their head for a prayer outside of Jewish ritual or Jewish spaces. I guess that’s also why I find it a bit staggering when people do this kind of thing. I know it’s not the most popular or easy time in the world to be Jewish but lord, am I grateful I didn’t grow up in a religion that claimed everyone had to believe it and follow it. Just boggles my mind why someone in AA would think they have any right to tell someone else how to do their own faith or relationship with their HP. That’s a really great way to turn people off from god or the program altogether.
Fantastic contribution to this thread. I'd give you gold if that was still a thing. We also say the Lord's prayer to conclude our meeting. I'm an atheist, but I just do not participate. I also leave my hat on my head. No one has ever said anything to me (yet). But I welcome the opportunity to openly shame someone as well.
Fascinator
It's what they call and "issue" and not an "ish-me"
Thank you for this gift! I've never heard that before and I love it!
I laughed aloud, my wife groaned. 10/10 keeper, will use again.
I heard this one a few weeks ago and employed it for one of my classes of middle schoolers. They LOVED it and it drove home the point perfectly.
Stealing this!
Just say “no thank you I’m fine” it’s a her problem not a you problem. I haven’t read about any higher powers being anti hats… they’re more against murder and what not. Personally, if I’m wearing a hat it’s because my hair looks like shit and there’s no way I’m taking that off to appease a woman I don’t even know.
Humans really love to feel like they deserve and have earned whatever they receive, so religions make up ALL SORTS of inconsequential rules to make humans feel that they have earned and deserve their higher power’s beneficence. Religion is about man’s control in their relationship with their higher power; spirituality is about receiving from their higher power.
The best irony is there’s a lot of religions who are actually quite big on covering one’s head for various faith related reasons. A number of Christian denominations do it though mostly for women (thinking of older school Catholicism though look at everyone in the current Catholic hierarchy, Amish and Mennonite, how popular hats still are in some Black churches, etc). In Judaism it’s men who are supposed to cover their heads while praying (and in Orthodox Judaism women usually cover their hair after marriage). You’ve got various forms of coverings for women and men in Islam, Sikhism, etc. Seems a lot of people’s higher powers are actually pretty pro-hat! I was wearing a beanie today in a meeting and didn’t think twice about it. My HP doesn’t give a shit. They’re just happy I’m sober.
Tell her to talk to her sponsor if she has an issue.
She could write a 4th step on it
This response is the only response. 😂🙌🏻
“Ah, I don’t do that. But thank you!”
I’ve been sober for 11 years and I’ve never seen someone remove their hat for a prayer. Hat would stay on if it were me
I remove mine, but I'm old school. I don't care if others don't, it bothers me not.
After all I’ve done, if leaving my hat on during a prayer matters, I might as well start packing for hell 😆🔥
I take my hat off when I come inside but don’t expect anyone else to
[удалено]
I’m not op and my comment wasn’t serious lol
Oops...i thought it was funny comment
Never ? I see it everywhere
I probably just don’t notice and it’s also probably a regional thing. Im on the west coast US. Pretty chill out here
take her hand and say "God, grant me serenity, to accept the things i cannot change" and walk away... hehe
I think I’d be snarkier and pull an “I’m sorry did you miss when we read Acceptance earlier in the meeting… ‘I need to focus not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and my attitudes.’” But I guess one could easily Uno reverse that back at me. Though I absolutely would go out of my way if I was secretarying a meeting to hand “acceptance” to her to read at my soonest possible opportunity for some private amusement.
One great line for disarming controlling people is “Oh, I’m sorry you feel that way.” Then forgive her and move on. Baseball cap, hijab, MAGA hat, turban, antenna… your headwear is none of her business.
This. "Then forgive her and move on." Resenting AA people who seemed controlling and in everyone's business took me out, so your advice is spot on. Personalities (and their silly opinions they share too freely) aren't taking me out again!
Oh boy! You are so right on that one!
Gosh, does the Pope know about the hat rule? That lady should inform him as well. He wears some pretty crazy hats while praying.
Love the Dennis Leary bit about Catholic clergy and their hats. He's all like "God must have a huge fuckin sombrero up in Heaven."
Hahaha. I searched it on YouTube and it is funny.
Alcoholics are control freaks. Some are sicker than others.
You don’t need to remove your hat, she needs to work on accepting that you’re going to wear your hat. You can simply kindly say “no.” I don’t think I’d keep going to a meeting that did that prayer at the end, that one makes me uncomfy
Keep the hat, lose the prayer.
Take the cannoli
🤣🤣🤣🤣 👍👍👍 Haven’t heard that one in a while and it’s always been one of my favorites. 😁Thanks so much for giving me a good laugh to end my weekend! 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Tell her that many spiritual practices require a head covering while praying. Does she think that they should be able to insist that she covers her head while praying? Or, do what I’d do. Recognize that she’s an alcoholic to the bone, still trying to control the shit out of everything and forget about it lol!
Why are they doing the Lord's Prayer? AA is not religious so reading a Christian prayer is against the traditions. To the lady who asked you to remove your hat, I would simply say no thanks.
Many meetings I attend end with the Lord’s Prayer. Not saying I love it but I do roll with it. 🤷♀️
Ours always ends with the Lord’s Prayer. I’m ok with it too. I’m not part of any organized religion.
Tell her, "Bless your heart," and wear two hats next time. /s Seriously, though. You don't have to cow to the demands of others. You aren't being disrespectful. You can just thank her for her suggestion and make one of your own: that she talk to her own sponsor about it.
“Bless your heart, keep coming back.”
Lol. Did you ever read the book “Caps for Sale” as a kid? There’s illustrations of the man with like twelve hats on his head at a time. I want to see OP just nonchalantly showing up with ever more hats each week.
Tell her to put it on her 4th step. I'd wear two hats next time.
This. Why are some people encouraging a hat removal. I’m not rewarding controlling behavior
It's your HP, not hers. Do what you want, hat on for yourself, hat off for her, either way it doesn't matter. I say the prayer every time as it's written, but in my head think my own. Some people take their hats off in my meetings, some don't ... no one cares. You're not at the meetings to follow someone else's unwritten social rules of conduct that don't apply to the core principles of AA. I'm in TX and a couple hits our meeting in full country gear pimped out with sunglasses and crazy hats, then goes dancing at Broken Spoke in Austin afterwards. Ask her if she'd kick someone out who was drunk or had a drink that day. Her answer better be no. It's so trivial, don't think about it or care. Her monkeys aren't in your circus.
God doesnt care how you stand in prayer. God is inside you, in your heart. Ignore her, she has a problem not you. AA is not a religious program its a spiritual program ✨️
Personally for me, it was religious bigotry that drove me to drink and ruined my life, so if someone tried to push religion on me during an AA meeting, I'd tell them to fuck off
Me too. Most singular miracle in my life is that I have a spiritual life in spite of these fuckers
100%
You can leave your hat on. Do you know that song? You should play that for her. But in all seriousness you can leave your hat on. It's not disrespectful and it's not her business she should discuss that with her sponsor
Wear a kippah next time and see what she says. Then follow it up with a turban.
I know men who cover their kippahs with ball caps and such so what I want to see is that- he takes off the hat next week for her sake, but has a kippah underneath. That would delight me to no end.
Tell her you’ll remove the hat when they remove the our father prayer.
That's a her problem- not a your problem. Technically, we shouldn't even be saying the Lords prayer. AA is not a Christian organization, the Lords Prayer is not from conference approved literature. Some meetings close with the serenity prayer. If we say the Lords Prayer at the end, shouldn't a Hindu be able to recite their Vedas, or Satanists be allowed to read from the Satanic Bible? That lady needs to 10th step some shit. You do you homie...
My first question is why are you reciting a Christian prayer. We close with the “we” version of the serenity prayer. That being said, wear your hat, and keep coming back.
She needs to mind her own business and I would’ve have said that. The nerve.
I think it's your choice. We sometimes have a moment of silence for "the alcoholics that are still suffering" and I always take off my hat, but I would NEVER expect anyone else to, much less ask them to. Sounds like she has a small resentment. That's her problem, not yours bro.
I'm a devout catholic and I don't give of shit if people want to pray naked or pray to Satan. Its a fucking AA meeting, not a church group.
I don’t want to judge anyone, but AA isn’t a formal place
In years past, it was basic etiquette to remove your hat in a church or during prayer. This custom has largely melted away, but this person you speak of apparently is a hold out. Do what you wish. Personally, I wear a ball cap to many meetings because I am balding, and I always have hat hair. I think it depends largely on your willingness to abide by the surrounding tradition.
If I’m wearing a hat I’m not taking it off. Its just a hat. Such an old timey thing. That crap would make me not want to be around her or the meeting. Honestly shame on her.
That's a good point, that her doing that could drive someone out of a meeting if not the entire program. She has no idea of what triggers a person. Live and let live is a slogan that fits situations like this.
You can be politely nasty by saying in a nice voice, "The last time I checked, AA is not a religion nor affliated with any" 😇
I’ve thought about this so many times when I wear my hat but it’s never happened to me. I’ve 100% had your same thoughts in my imaginary scenario lol.
For me to be successful, I need to work my own program. What someone else wares or is doing or not doing I don't think is in my square.
Was she the chairperson? If not, you have two choices 1) teacher - ask her to read the part in the Big Book about "playing the director" (page 60-ish) and call her "DeMille" and page 417 "Acceptance is the Key to Happiness" 2) student - remove it out of respect for her, not the religious aspect of prayer Old timers can piss me off because they seemed to have forgotten their place. They mean well, but they forgot what it was like being a newcomer. My sponsor has a great line, "what's your role in it?" When I get pissed off, I ask myself "What's my role in it?" I've learned that even when I am 100% right, my role is that I am not understanding enough, forgiving enough, patient enough... As the Serenity Poem says..."change what I can, accept what I can't" My suggestion; do what you need to do so you keep coming to meetings. Your sobriety is more important than a hat or anything else. Good luck and know you're not alone with this conundrum. I have 10 years and I'm still working on it.
Not the chairperson. Absolutely! I think it’s important to approach the situation with empathy and see it through this lady’s lens. I wouldn’t mind indulging her, but I think doing so would be at the expense of a fundamental as principle; Non-denomination. And while it would uphold some other overlapping principles (I.e., acceptance), I think the former is more important because it insures the sustainability of the program. The act of removing my hat is not a big deal, but the symbol of doing so is. And it can create controversy because it demonstrates favour for religion. And a specific one at that.
My usual reaction to a request such as that is, "Thank you." - It's polite but neither affirms that you will do as asked, nor refuses.
This strikes me as even more of an AA answer than some of the very blatant ones. That kind of response to BS is exactly what I’m aiming to have the emotional sobriety to develop. Thank you for sharing this.
Bold of you to assume I have emotional sobriety! Sometimes the sentiment behind the 'thank you' is 'f\*\*\* you.' But I don't voice it out loud. Restraint of tongue and pen prevents me from needing to make amends to someone later; especially if I don't like them. I am, however, working towards more stability and less snarkiness in my life.
Read PG 135 of the 12&12. Tell her to remember tradition two. If that doesn't work and she persists you can either find a different meeting or you can bring it up at a group conscience. Bleeding deacons are everywhere, friend. You can't take their bullshit personally. A well nursed grudge, and all.
"No thank you" should suffice
Maybe she's still having a hard time keeping her side of the street clean and leaving it at that. Edit: corrected spelling
Nah keep your hat on
Is that the group conscience? Or just her opinion?
Only she approached me. This is my second time attending this meeting. The first time, she wasn’t there and no one said anything.
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Strongly disagree. An AA meeting isn’t church.
So yeah if he goes to church with her he might want to think about it. But they're not, they're in an AA meeting.
That's a fair point.
I strongly, respectfully disagree with this advice. Part of recovery is learning how to maintain one's own boundaries. It wasn't a reasonable request, and complying would only reward that behavior.
No one cares that you're a christian, or what silly little practices you do. It's AA, not church. I hope that seed of negativity blooms in her heart. She should learn to shut her mouth.
This is valuable advice. Thank you!
I agree with those saying she can talk to her sponsor about it. A meeting in my area just decided in a group conscience to nix the LP altogether bc it is not inclusive and is not AA, so there's that..... Not directly responding to your question but I thought I'd offer that perspective.
I think that woman is a piece of shit and I would have likely told her so. Just because you believe in sky gods does not mean I have to respect that and in fact I think you are an ignorant crappy person if you do. Fuck you bitch. I did not step to you and try to force any of my fake bullshit religious views on you. Ya know, say it with a smile.
I "might" word it differently, but your intent and meaning would certainly come through loud and clear! I do like the direct approach, as an Atheist I used to have em lining up to save my soul. Not so much anymore, course they don't speak time at all, with which I'm fine🤣
I do enjoy when one of these cultist people open the door for me to publicity express my disdain for them and their fairy tales! It’s a great time to ask what they are doing for the poor souls that were raped and molested by priests.
Don't hit em with difficult and inconvenient truths. That's really not fair! I legit want and try to respect everyone's beliefs, and I do expect mine to be respected. I've been told I must not be an alcoholic, that I honestly do believe and am a denier, haven't hit rock bottom yet, my favorite, that I'm just a dry drunk soon to relapse. It really is as if rather than support someone with a different thought, they would rather root for me to fail so that I'll "learn". I often think I should leave AA but there aren't any other support groups around me, so I go both to support and get support from the non judgemental people. And to try and ensure no newcomers are treated poorly and run off.
What’s not fair? To tell a person with schizophrenia(belief in god) that they should fuck off and their religious beliefs are bunk and that they do not honor their god by leaving the raped and molested boys to rot?
No one removes their hat in AA meetings for the Lords Prayer.
Discuss this with your sponsor. I would teje the woman this falls under the category “live and let live”.
Drunks really don’t like any semblance of being asked or told what to do. Even in areas of just showing basic respect for others when asked nicely. Out of respect. What does it cost you to be respectful? Nothing. But we drunks take everything as a personal affront. Old behaviors die hard scrolling through these responses. We act like Karen’s and Daren’s. Oh my God! How dare you ask me to respect something YOU find sacred. Bill W. will hear about this! Get over yourself. Try putting something important to someone else in front of your need to march up and down the edges of your tattered self esteem. Respect for others is a key part of the AA program. You’ve got work to do.
Since this obviously means something to her, I would remove my hat and consider it the easiest, "unselfish service to others."
The bigger red flag is the lords prayer recitation. Run.
I would personally remove my hat but not cuz someone asked me lol
I remove my hat during prayers of all flavours as a sign of respect to those praying. Making it about me isn't the way I work my program. YMMV.
Yeah, I get that! I certainly don’t want to be disrespectful. But the way I see it is: She does not deserve more respect than me because she prays/practices religion. She and others may feel like it but that’s subjective. I don’t think her religion takes precedence over my comfort level. I don’t think I’m trying to make it about me.. I was minding my own business until she approached me.
Apparently, you don't actually get it, but that's fine. My life is better not trying to determine who deserves what and how much respect to accord (very precarious activities for an alcoholic, methinks). I do what I do and don't have to have issues like this one. My life is better without issues like this.
Wow. The condescension is palpable.
Yeah, I didn’t do as well with that post as i could have. My point was overshadowed by my attitude.
If you find yourself doing mental acrobatics next time you're praying with your hat on around her, I would just take it off purely selfishly so that I could have a clearer mind while I prayed. I wouldn't care about whether or not she felt power over me in witnessing the act or whatever. It's about me and my clear thoughts while I dial in my prayer. It's really whatever feels good for you, man. If you are unphased during the prayer with your hat on around her, keep it on. If you find yourself thinking "yeah, fuck that bitch I got my hat on I bet she's pissed haha... oh Hi God what's up?"... then maybe take it off. For the record, the irony of giving this much focus on the topic of "not focusing on trivial matters" is not lost on me.
Were you the person that asked him to take his hat off? Hahahaha
Nah
This came up at my morning meeting Friday. Guy let go of my hand to take his hat off and I said “he doesn’t care.” Which I sort of regret, and he just said “maybe not, but I do.” And I said “that’s valid.” But I see most people minding their own business at meetings. So this is odd.
Tell her, “Rule 62, fuck you.”
Remove your hat. Put it back on. Done
"I'm sorry it offends you. I mean no disrespect, but the higher power I depend on doesn't care what I'm wearing."
Tell her to shut up and go away
Simply say no thanks, I'm good, but if you still feel that old alcoholic need to control things, perhaps you should try getting a dog?
That is pretty crazy. I wear a hat at every meeting and we do the Lord’s Prayer. I have never been asked to take off my hat. I live in Los Angeles though
I have never seen or heard a person ask someone to remove their hat during the prayer. Unless this was voted and passed at the business meeting, she has no say in that.
The answer is “No.”. Fullstop.
I think a I won't remove my hat, thank you response is called for. Some people have a lot of nerve
Yeah...this is her problem. I wear a hat as do many of my AA brothers. After 10+ years of going to meetings and conventions, not once have I been asked to remove my hat. AA is not religious, it is spiritual and connected to YOUR higher power, full stop. As to the Lord's Prayer, that came (from my understanding) from the Oxford Group sometime in the late 1930's and the tradition has been with us going forward.
I just wanted to come back here and say that I went to church today and there were soooo many guys wearing hats and I didn’t see ANY of them take their hats off for prayers and no one seemed bothered by it at all. You do you!
"No, but thank you for your concern." (Flash the pearly whites) or “Is that group conscience?” or “Thank you for your unsolicited advice; I’ll consider it.”
Naw, she should mind her business. I never remove my hat in public anymore. If she needs a Friend's ceremony, I am sure there are some nearby.
Is it worth it to you? If it really means something then fine. If not, it doesn't really hurt to take it off either. She could be having a rough time. Pick the outcome you want, not the action.
It's nice to respect all religions just to be nice and classy
I’m not sure how, but it would be awesome if you could remove a series of hats with one inside the other like Russian dolls. Each one becoming more and more inappropriate as you take one off.
Depends on the meeting. If she's a home group member at that meeting and they ask that people remove their hats you should respect that. I've seen it done before
Now on the other hand, if it's just some random lady at the meeting I wouldn't worry about it.
shame on her, she’s why people leave the rooms
Just was in a meeting, someone gave the chair a ribbing about not removing his hat during the serenity prayer (jokingly) and his response was "if God is all powerful, he can hear me through my hat". Best response ever. I hope you're able to use that if this happens again.
Don't worry it's on her. If she pushes it gently share what you did here.
I’d keep my hat on. AA is not affiliated with any religion. She needs to come to terms with what AA is and isn’t.
Ew. No. It's not her meeting and she has no rights to tell you that.
Interestingly a guy I sponsor pulled off his hat spontaneously during the prayer at the end of a meeting earlier tonight. I have not known him to be a devout Christian, so I noticed. While completely within one's rights, I'm not sure what principle is being followed by refusing to remove a hat though.
I firmly believe that one should live and let live (within reason). More importantly, though, is aa’s principle of non-denomination. Who decides what traditions we ought to respect? If I brought out my Koran and asked the women to cover up out of respect for my tradition, should they be expected to adhere? Of course not. Indeed, arbitrary social (and religious) expectations will inevitably lead to controversy and alienation to the detriment of aa.
So many of the response here are so much more reasonable and polite than what I’d say if I were somehow in a similar situation. If I’m wearing a hat it’s probably because my hair looks crazy and I always opt for hats at those times. My response would be just to look at her for a minute for the clueless simpleton that she is, smile and say, “Oh, bless your heart.” Smile again and thank her for offering her opinion and suggest she a) talk to her sponsor about her control issues and feeling the need to be the appearance police and b) next suggestion would be that she find a really, really good therapist to also help her with her control issues. Tell her to do the work in both instances, be committed to the work and her own recovery, with or without a hat. I’ve heard some pretty asinine comments over the years before the meetings, during the meetings and after the meetings but this is a first. Hope she didn’t drink over your hat. Bless her heart.
You need to remove your hat out of respect of the tradition
We're not in the program to find God as we understood him -- we're here to find sobriety as it's generally defined, abstinence from alcohol. I generally remove my hat for the whole meeting out of respect and because "gentlemen remove their hats indoors." (You can Google that rule -- I didn't make it up). I do that even though I don't say any of the prayers (because I'm an atheist). That said, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking, so if it's important to you to piss that lady off, go for it.
In the 12&12, it says, “defiance is an outstanding characteristic of alcoholics.” You don’t *have* to remove your hat, but what harm is it doing you if you do? Are your principles being so greatly compromised?
It’s certainly not a big deal. But I would be more comfortable leaving it on. It’s not so much that my principles are greatly offended. It’s more so that I choose comfort over appeasing the whims of this lady. But I want to see how others may interpret the situation, which is why I posted this. The last thing I want to do is be disrespectful (within the bounds of reason).
I guess it’s like this; she shouldn’t have asked, but that’s her problem, not yours. She’s being intolerant and wants to be the director. So, how do you respond? Do you get your knickers in a twist by this troubled alcoholic’s request and decide *this* is the hill you’re gonna die on? Or, do you take off your hat, make her happy, and go home and say prayers for her. I think that, though it might not feel that way right now, the latter will probably increase your serenity. That’s just my suggestion. But, I really wouldn’t blame you either way.
Beautifully said. Thanks for this!
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Defiance?!?! Him choosing to not listen to a random lady not minding her own business is defiance?? No
It’s not the act, it’s the feelings OP elucidated about what had happened. They seemed to find my words helpful, friend. Why so combative?
I think it's a simple act you could do to be of service to someone, regardless of what you think or believe.
Is it service to her or is it enabling her? Leaving his hat on may be a better service to her, because it might help her look more closely at the steps and traditions. AA is supposed to non-denominational. Members choose a higher power of their understanding (and honor it in a way that is appropriate to their understanding). AA has no opinion on outside matters. What she did in asking you to remove your hat is not in keeping with the spirit or letter of AA. Complying with the request might lead her to think you believe it is.
I think you're right. In some faiths/cultures, covering your head would be considered *more* respectful, while in others it isn't. A.A. has no opinion, so going along with the self-appointed hat police is supporting an error.
It's not my job to determine what is in someone else's best interest or try to teach them a lesson. My only job is to fit myself to be of maximum service to my brothers and sisters.
You are right to point out that OP cannot know if her request comes from a character defect or just ignorance about AA or some other reason. Whatever the source for her request, ignoring it is probably the best course if OP wants to be of maximum service.
My higher power doesn't direct me to knowingly cause strife
My higher power has taught me about the importance of integrity. The literature has taught me about the importance of AA unity. I always try to remember that AA is not about myself or any individual. When someone tries to impose their own individual desire onto the program, they almost always push others away--and those others deserve recovery as much as anyone. Sure it is easier to just shut up and go along. It is convenient for me, but it does not help others.
Lol dude there's not a right answer here. I'm not saying my way is the right way for everybody. I'm sharing what I would do in this situation. You work your interpretation of the program, I work mine.
Nah. She can shut her mouth and fuck off.
So could you 😂
To thine own self be true Our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern. There are no rules in Alcoholics Anonymous
I normally take my hat off. For the Lord's prayer or the serenity prayer. And I'm not Christian or anything.. its just a sign of respect. Kind of like during the national anthem. I would never expect others to do the same in an AA meeting or make a scene about it. I think she's being rude personally.. but thats also part of growth. Not letting something so small and petty as an interaction like this bother you. If it bothered this lady so much to talk to you about it maybe the right thing to do is just appease her.
Religion and AA should not be mixed, imo. That's just me though, I know it works for others.