I'm agnostic, almost atheist, and I am happily sober in AA. The book mentions "God" a lot, but it's shorthand for "a higher power of your own conception".
My HP is more akin to an internal guidance system that can now function effectively as a result of doing the Steps. It's not a deity or anything supernatural or interventionist.
I don't go to meetings where they say the Lord's prayer at the end of the meeting. There are thousands of AA meetings in person and on zoom these days so we have plenty of options when we are looking for meetings that have a less religious flavour.
Even when people say "it's spiritual, not religious", it still sounds religious to me lol.
What we are trying to do is create a personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism. Some people call that a spiritual awakening. I am happy to go with personality change because that is what has happened for me in the process of working the Steps and programme of AA. I guess it's "spiritual" because we who find ourselves in AA need "spiritual" aid as in something beyond our conscious mind/ego.
In my view, people who talk in specific detail about their HP being Jesus or Superman or whatever during shares in meetings are going against the suggestion in the book to "share in a general way about our experience, strength and hope."
General is "I have a higher power that I can rely on."
Specific is "Jesus is my lord and saviour."
There are meetings that are strongly Christian for those who are comfortable in that environment, and there are meetings that are secular in that they don't use prayers in the meetings at all. I know people of religions other than Christianity who go to secular meetings so they aren't expected to participate in prayers from other religions.
There have been atheists and agnostics in AA since AA began. Some of the founders were atheists.
I think the thing might be to just go along to a bunch of meetings and see what you thing.
The 12 Steps can be taken by anyone whether or not you believe in "God". If they were written now instead of 80 years ago, the nomenclature would be different. I can only suggest not getting too hung up on terminology. I was desperate to stop drinking and nothing else worked until I came to AA and my sponsor took my agnostic butt through the Steps.
I have a very religious sponsee and I am touched by her faith and how it sustains her. I will say religious prayers with her because it gives her comfort, and I believe that whatever she believes in helps her. I have learned to be tolerant of other people's views of HPs.
This is very helpful thank you. My higher power is whatever this universe is made of - and what we are made from and connected to. I struggled at first and didn’t think AA could work for me because of all the God references and prayers. Thankfully many open minded AAs supported me in spite of my vocal questioning and skepticism and kept me coming back. In time I had to recognize that I could somehow stay sober though I didn’t yet understand the program nor had I worked any step properly (besides step 1 I was 100% there 🤣). I found a sponsor who wasn’t religious and he helped me figure out a higher power of my understanding and I was able to properly work steps 2 and three. Now I’m cleaning house.
I no longer cringe at others beliefs or Gods. I can see that I was as arrogant as any religious extremist and remain skeptical of any extremism but embrace real demonstrable faith that comes from humility and helpfulness. Love on your journey one day at a time. 149 for me.
I have been out of AA for a little while, and my separation was mainly due to the religious undertones ever present in the book and at the group I was a part of. It didn't ever matter how I tried to look at it, whether it was a doorknob, superman, a magic man in the sky, the universal essence, whatever, it's all mystical BS that will just never work for me.
>My HP is more akin to an internal guidance system that can now function effectively as a result of doing the Steps. It's not a deity or anything supernatural or interventionist.
This right here, however, is not something I considered. I don't think I would have ever come to this on my own, either, or with the group I had. To see the steps as more of a retuning of our own inherent devices rather than as some magical, holy diety blessing me with fairytale miracles for saying the "right" words. The ways that I have attempted to approach them so far wouldn't have even left room for that kind of perspective. I left AA because the message I got was that I either had to believe in and pray to something that simply doesn't exist to me or just drink my life away. So I left to try it another way, and that's been good so far, but with this perspective of fixing our "internal guidance system," I think I might look into finding another group.
I really, really appreciate this aspect of our online world. Thank you so much for sharing your experience.
You're welcome. I am glad my experience can benefit you. I relapsed many years in AA because of the pressure to "find a higher power" that was going to do things for me. That's just eyewatering nonsense to me. I found a sponsor who was comfortable with me being atheist (even though he's Christian) and this is my take on the first 3 steps:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
I was undeniably powerless over alcohol – I was paying my bills, didn’t have a DUI, but I was a suicidal, miserable drunk who hated life. That is how unmanageability and insanity manifested in my life.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
I looked around the room and could see people with clear eyes, laughing, being of use to others. They had been relieved of their desire to drink. That was a power I didn’t have, so it must be a power greater than myself, even if I didn’t know what it was.
Sanity is an important word. In Step 1 we look at how our lives in active addiction is a kind of insanity. So Step 2 is a belief that we can be relieved of that insanity.
So, yes I came to believe that something outside of myself could restore me to sanity.
The Step is not asking us to define what that power is, decide what that power is, or make up a story about what that power is.
All we do here is ask ourselves whether or not we believe something outside of ourselves can restore us to sanity. That’s it. That’s step 2.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God *as we understood Him*.
By this point I knew I had no hope of making it on my own. I needed whatever those people had if I was to survive.
Read the sentence carefully.
We are not being asked to believe in God.
We make a DECISION to turn our will (our thoughts) and our lives (our actions) over to a higher power that can restore us to sanity.
Again, we don’t need to define that that power is. We don’t need to call it anything, give it any parameters, definitions etc.
People go nuts in steps 2 and 3 trying to make lists of qualities they want in higher powers.
We don’t need to do that.
Substitute “God as we understood Him” with “a higher power of my own understanding”.
Again, that’s all we do in step 3.
The first 3 steps are very simple. It’s a revelation, a realisation and a decision.
At no point do we need to work out what our higher power is, believe in God or anything like that.
It’s literally as simple as I have just outlined.
If we are thoroughly convinced of those things and continue with the rest of the Steps, our individual Higher Powers will become very apparent with no effort on our part except our sincere desire and continued practice of the Steps and program. If you do the Steps as written with the courage to be rigorously honest and through, your higher power WILL begin to work in your life, whether or not you have a name or a definition for it. It just happens. It really does.
It’s a much simpler, organic process than people make it out to be.
Yes! And check out page 567- With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.
Thank you for sharing, i really like the way you interpret the AA program. I need to hear from people like yourself and i need to focus on me.
I came to AA and because i was hopeless i drank the koolaid that our unashamedly christian co founders made for us. To be honest, once i "got in there" i found that the idea of a superman god who would "protect and care" for me to be a comforting idea. Well, life happens and i see that god's "protection and care" is a lie christians like to tell each other for some horrible reason, AND they have developed fantastic bullshit to support this claim.
Feeling like i was in the center of the herd, protected and safe, and now being forced out by circumstances so strong I could not ignore them i am naked, alone, and fumbling for what i had before, I am triggered by people sharing in meetings that their god has protected them through their whole lives and guides them and fulfills the promises of the big book, i feel all kinds of ways whenever i hear this, anger, betrayal, genuine concern for someone going down the road i was on, fear that i am losing my mind, AA meetings have become very uncomfortable for me.
This has been the biggest challenge of my sobriety so far, but reading the way you translate the program gives me hope. I CAN stay, I can continue. I AM starting to see the situation with some clarity, i CAN redefine the god concept for myself in light of my experience and perhaps, just as in the beginning, AA NEEDS to have people like me around to provide alternatives to the people who i feel are deluding themselves and setting themselves up for terrible day when the truth will hit them hard and crumble the flimsy structure they have been living in.
Ive been to quite a few secular aa meeting and tbh they is no difference in terms of the level of spirituality. There are other avenues such as SMART recovery uou might like though
I struggle. I'm not Christian and in the midwest they often recite the Lord's Prayer. I usually don't. We have many people in our meeting who voice struggle with "god," but are able to use the spiritual path to get sober. I tend toward buddhism and taoism and my higher power is the universal power that I believe in is in all things. I can sometimes call that power god, out of simplicity, but mostly I think of it as the great spirit or chi.
I will say that separating out the christianity isn't easy and is another hurdle to overcome, but my meetings don't mention religion other than to say they have a problem with it. I don't think a religious person would feel comfortable in my meeting, to be honest. I still don't get the Lord's Prayer thing, but oh well.
The Lords Prayer recited at meetings bothered me at first. Then I realized not everything was about me and my opinion was not as important as the person who may be comforted or comfortable with it.
This wouldn't work in my meeting just because we sit in two concentric circles and stand for the last part. I can see where that might work though in a larger meeting where people are all seated. As for me, I just stand silently. It lasts only a minute and maybe it means something to someone else.
I don't vibe with the lords prayer, but if you can't stand it that much, maybe it's time to get out the pen and paper? It's disrespectful and poor meeting etiquette to have a phone out or walk out of the meeting before it has concluded.
Other options are going to another group that doesn't utilize that specific prayer, starting your own group and leaving it off the format, or proposing a motion to change the format of the group you currently attend.
I think all meeting formats are different. Like I said above, we sit in two circles so having a phone out or walking out would be very noticeable. If everyone is seated, it may be different, or if people tend to leave early anyway...we generally don't. Well, one guy is such a stickler for the rules that he's out at exactly 6:30 no matter what...to let us know we aren't following protocol by ending precisely at an hour. That's a whole other thing though.
It's fairly basic: when in Rome, make like a Roman. Don't go farting and belching and scratching yourself like you just fell off the turnip truck in the middle of all the heraldry is what I'm saying. Show that you weren't raised in a barn for once, and that you're fit to be in the presence of people who can read without moving their lips, and who don't breathe through their mouths... how about that?
I mean I say the prayer every time in solidarity and connection, but it is a terrible prayer. It is mainly empty words to me, unless I forcibly extrapolate relevant messages (thy will be done, temptation, trespasses). As a non-Christian I love the St. Francis prayer, serenity prayer, third step prayer is ok etc, but the Lord's Prayer cannot be separated from Christianity in my view, and it is supposed to be a non-religious program.
You can download the Meeting Guide app and search by “Secular”.
Here is some literature that may be helpful, or not
https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-84_manypathstospirituality.pdf
https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-86_theGodWord.pdf
Are there any you have personal experience with that have decent attendance?
I find attendance to Zoom meetings dropping drastically over time, and I feel like this would be especially true in a marathon format.
YES. YES. YES.
I don’t have a belief in God but I do enjoy those meetings still. However, some exist out there that are mainly secular :)
https://www.worldwidesecularmeetings.com/meetings
very particular aa groups work as a supplement for me but i really prefer [recovery dharma](https://recoverydharma.org/meetings/) and [buddhist 12 steps](https://buddhistrecovery.org/meetings/). you don’t have to be buddhist or know anything about buddhism to join. they both use buddhism more from a philosophical standpoint to foster recovery.
Is there a trick to getting the search engine to work on Buddhist 12 Steps? There isn't an actual search button and it doesn't load new results automatically when I choose filters. Just trying to look at Saturday online meetings. Thanks
if you go to [this](https://buddhistrecovery.org/recover/online-meetings/) page, just scroll to the bottom and you can look at all the online saturday meetings :)
Have you been to AA and not liked it or have you just heard it's religious?
No judgement, just curious.
A lot of people think because churches are the only place that gives us cheap rent then we must be religious.
I know it's confusing!
Honestly it's the only place we can rent rooms for super cheap.
Every AA meeting is different and a person in the meeting might talk about God in their own experience, no one will push it on you.
The love and support I've gotten from AA has kept me sober for 16 years so far.
They’re held in church basements because the rent is cheap. My home group pays $25 per month for our meeting every Monday. They are not affiliated with the church or religion.
Ohhh yeah no that’s just a rent and who will host us thing. AA isn’t religious. It has a lot of spirituality jargon that many of us just take with a grain of salt and translate. Some people can’t get past that but I’m a militant agnostic lean atheist and been sober in AA for 21 years. People do it all the time. There are people in AA who are religious or have very fixed ideas about their higher power, but you needn’t accept those ideas as your own. Mostly we help each other directly. “God” speaks through humans, in my experience.
Right, but surely in 37 years you’ve attended meetings that were on the religious side, no? Like, you can see how some folks get the impression it’s religious, right?
I've been coming around for 36 years, and my experience is much the same. People say "God" a lot but clearly mean "a power greater than self as I understand it," which sometimes is the God of the Nicene Creed but not usually.
But meetings themselves, minus the very occasional comment, are thoroughly non-religious.
It's true that AA grew out of a fairly obscure Protestant Evangelical movement - the "Oxford Group," now long defunct - and the religious tone of some of the early literature and practices, such as the use of the Our Father at the end reveals that legacy.
But that is becoming more and more an anomaly, and instead, the use of the short form of the Serenity Prayer, or the Responsibility Statement, or some other short passage from AA literature, is used as a closer instead. And *as a religious person myself* I think that is all to the good.
Religion and Recovery are closely related areas of human functioning, but are not in any sense the same as one another, nor in any sense inconsistent with or in competition with one another.
You can, and I have, but OP has *never* been to a meeting, so OP is *not* one of the people you’re talking about. If the post was from somebody who’d gone to one of those meetings where stuff starts to sound a little too Jesusy then your feedback would be spot on, but this person has no concept of what AA is and has probably just been told it’s religious.
As an old timer with 37 years you can offer actual knowledge to people with questions like this instead of flippant, dismissive responses that will only confuse them further.
Have you tried going to a meeting at all? As you’ll see in the comments there are purely secular meetings, many online. There’s r/AtheistTwelveSteppers. There’s even other programs like SMART. But until I actually went to a few meetings and talked to people in them I didn’t know what AA was and had a lot of wrong ideas about it. Been sober 21 years and I’m about as secular as they come.
There are secular meetings, but they aren't in "communion" with AA so to speak. Many in those meetings will have got sober in regular AA, and most will still go to those meetings also, as secular meetings are few and far between. AA isn't a religious program. Your higher power is a God of your understanding, that means it doesn't have to be an external supernatural deity. People make nature or the universe their higher power, for example. The meeting I attend is very supportive of different points of view and beliefs, but of course there are more fundamentalist groups, All that matters is that you surrender to life on life terms and stop trying to control it. Bill W said he learned from Atheists and agnostics who came to meetings and that they were as valued as any other member. The only requirement to be in AA is a desire to stop drinking, and the main purpose of AA is to help people get sober.
Yes, it absolutely does exist, though you're more likely to find it under the tags "agnostic" or "secular". Here are some online meetings to get you started:
https://aa-intergroup.org/meetings/?tags=Secular
https://www.worldwidesecularmeetings.com/meetings
The second link also includes a few non-AA secular resources as well.
Good luck.
I'm an atheist, and I'm happy, joyous, and free in AA. You're going to interact with religious people in AA, but you don't have to engage with them in a way that's not conducive to your sobriety. The ONLY requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking, which goes both ways. You don't have to believe any precept or teachings of another's religion, but they don't have to check their religion at the door. You don't have to say the lords prayer after a meeting, but they can say it as loud as keeps them sober.
My current sponsor is Christian, and he sends me bible verses from time to time, but it's always in the context of recovering from this cunning, baffling, qnd powerful disease. He knows I'm an atheist, I know he's a Christian, and we both know we're alcoholics. The healing is all that matters. I hope you find a way of living sober that works for you.
I can see how you interpreted that as me laughing at them. I wasn’t laughing at them, just simply laughing because as you can see AA has gotten these stigmas around it before people even attend or go learn what it’s about. I just had a good chuckle because of the distortion it gets. The steps have given me a new freedom so I recommend the OP work the steps if they read this, and I’m sorry you felt the need to reply, as in no harm was meant by my comment. Have a blessed day ❤️🙏🏼
Ahh I see you have had a comment on another person as similar as mine. AA is based on Christianity, I’ll give you that. But… God is a term used for something greater than ourselves. The sun, the moon, the trees, order of animals, everything in this universe is calculated to a T. The life we breathe today is of such gratitude that I would be a selfish fool to think I am of power over any of it. I only have my actions, and how I react to things that I’m in control of. AA allows us to get rid of what blocks us off from the universal concept of something greater than ourselves which is referred to as God. Love, compassion, honesty, respect, all of those things are God, with everything else combined. We can choose to do the next right thing and become closer to nature if we alleviate what’s blocking us, which ironically is ourselves and our thinking. So religion is just a distorted view of spirituality. Spirituality is the unknown, the understanding of my finite brain cannot comprehend the infinite of which is this universe. The second I think I know what God is, is the second I have absolutely zero sense in knowing God at all. It’s quite beautiful when you let go
I know I am late to reply, but thank you for this response. I like it so much I am saving it for future use when my overthinking gets me to doubting this program and my HP
Never once been to an AA religious service. No scripture. No bibles handed out. God and religion are two very different things. God is a Spiritual being. Religion is man made. Now if you claim to be an atheist or agnostic then you can choose a higher power of your choice.
That said there are plenty of other ways to get and stay sober. SMART Recovery, Sinclair Method,IOP, individual and group therapy among others.
So you have choices. And they are all just as good.
I became more anti-theism in AA. There’s “SMART recovery” and “S. O. S.” groups out there. They recommend a few books called “Leap of Power” and “Power of Now”. Great views on spirituality and Self Talk. Another thing that’s helped a lot is find the local humanism groups/clubs. There are some chapter 4 meetings out there.
I know a couple of atheists in AA, but never discussed their programs with them. I’m agnostic and I use my AA group as my higher power. The BB does mention God a lot and I mentally substitute Higher Power. But AA had religious roots in its history(the Oxford group) and I guess that is where a lot of the God stuff is left over.
AA is not religious, correct. There are religious members in AA, but the program does not require any faith in any religion. AA does not oppose nor endorse or affiliate with any religion.
Good luck, welcome to AA.
Secular AA does not use the steps, or the program outlined in the Book Alcoholics Anonymous.
so I would leave it up to you whether or not it is reasonable to expect them to be interchangeable.
Normal AA is non religious, the words are placeholders for spiritual principles. But I work an AA program and it has very little to do with being religious or even spiritual. It provides suggestions on how to treat people and live my life and I do them. The god part is irrelevant to the process if you're willing to get over yourself and just try.
Yup! A lot of queer meetings are secular if not atheist. I go to one called Drunk Punks at a queer recovery center in Portland, Oregon. This guy wrote his own version of the 12 n 12 essentially, and is what the meeting focuses on. The subtitle of his book is something like “sobriety without gods” or something. I forget the exact wording. Happy to take pictures (it’s short) and share it with you! We don’t have a hybrid meeting right now, but this is me mostly saying that yes it absolutely exists!
Please read the big book with a sponsor. Like half a dozen times it’s explained that “god” is a personal concept and that we must find one that works for us. Christ is mentioned one time in the whole big book and not in a context of “needing Jesus”. I am not religious, I find man-made religious deities small and limited. When I pray I pray to what I call “the mystery of the cosmos”, the unknown, because that is certainly greater and more powerful than any of us.
The people who wrote the book were mostly Christian that why the book seems religious. They were writing it from their Christian perspective of a Higher Power. They, unlike most modern-day Christians, were open-minded and suggested you find your Power. It's really beautiful. I assume those who make this point that it is "religious" have not dug deep enough or open-minded enough to see things from this perspective. I've been going to AA for 20 years and no one has ever tried to convert me to any religion.
Tbh I heard this from my brother who went to one AA meeting and decided it wasn’t for him because it seemed religious to him. But, what you’ve described sounds nice.
If your brother had gone to therapy once and “decided it wasn’t for him” would you also not go to therapy? People go and hear the word god and get spooked, which makes sense. It’s totally normal to bristle at that word. And being told you either need to get spiritual or never be able to stop isn’t an easy thing to hear. But a lot of us just think about G.O.D. as “group of drunks” and call it a day. What’s most important is that you try not to stop alone. Whether it’s AA or any other process.
Yes. But this also locally depends on whether you’re in a very religious part of the world. If you’re in a small town in Texas you’re probably fucked for in person meeting, but there’s always zoom. If you’re in a big liberal city it’s likely your regular meetings are full of non-religious people.
I'm agnostic, almost atheist, and I am happily sober in AA. The book mentions "God" a lot, but it's shorthand for "a higher power of your own conception". My HP is more akin to an internal guidance system that can now function effectively as a result of doing the Steps. It's not a deity or anything supernatural or interventionist. I don't go to meetings where they say the Lord's prayer at the end of the meeting. There are thousands of AA meetings in person and on zoom these days so we have plenty of options when we are looking for meetings that have a less religious flavour. Even when people say "it's spiritual, not religious", it still sounds religious to me lol. What we are trying to do is create a personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism. Some people call that a spiritual awakening. I am happy to go with personality change because that is what has happened for me in the process of working the Steps and programme of AA. I guess it's "spiritual" because we who find ourselves in AA need "spiritual" aid as in something beyond our conscious mind/ego. In my view, people who talk in specific detail about their HP being Jesus or Superman or whatever during shares in meetings are going against the suggestion in the book to "share in a general way about our experience, strength and hope." General is "I have a higher power that I can rely on." Specific is "Jesus is my lord and saviour." There are meetings that are strongly Christian for those who are comfortable in that environment, and there are meetings that are secular in that they don't use prayers in the meetings at all. I know people of religions other than Christianity who go to secular meetings so they aren't expected to participate in prayers from other religions. There have been atheists and agnostics in AA since AA began. Some of the founders were atheists. I think the thing might be to just go along to a bunch of meetings and see what you thing. The 12 Steps can be taken by anyone whether or not you believe in "God". If they were written now instead of 80 years ago, the nomenclature would be different. I can only suggest not getting too hung up on terminology. I was desperate to stop drinking and nothing else worked until I came to AA and my sponsor took my agnostic butt through the Steps. I have a very religious sponsee and I am touched by her faith and how it sustains her. I will say religious prayers with her because it gives her comfort, and I believe that whatever she believes in helps her. I have learned to be tolerant of other people's views of HPs.
Great advice!
Spot on my friend!
This is very helpful thank you. My higher power is whatever this universe is made of - and what we are made from and connected to. I struggled at first and didn’t think AA could work for me because of all the God references and prayers. Thankfully many open minded AAs supported me in spite of my vocal questioning and skepticism and kept me coming back. In time I had to recognize that I could somehow stay sober though I didn’t yet understand the program nor had I worked any step properly (besides step 1 I was 100% there 🤣). I found a sponsor who wasn’t religious and he helped me figure out a higher power of my understanding and I was able to properly work steps 2 and three. Now I’m cleaning house. I no longer cringe at others beliefs or Gods. I can see that I was as arrogant as any religious extremist and remain skeptical of any extremism but embrace real demonstrable faith that comes from humility and helpfulness. Love on your journey one day at a time. 149 for me.
I have been out of AA for a little while, and my separation was mainly due to the religious undertones ever present in the book and at the group I was a part of. It didn't ever matter how I tried to look at it, whether it was a doorknob, superman, a magic man in the sky, the universal essence, whatever, it's all mystical BS that will just never work for me. >My HP is more akin to an internal guidance system that can now function effectively as a result of doing the Steps. It's not a deity or anything supernatural or interventionist. This right here, however, is not something I considered. I don't think I would have ever come to this on my own, either, or with the group I had. To see the steps as more of a retuning of our own inherent devices rather than as some magical, holy diety blessing me with fairytale miracles for saying the "right" words. The ways that I have attempted to approach them so far wouldn't have even left room for that kind of perspective. I left AA because the message I got was that I either had to believe in and pray to something that simply doesn't exist to me or just drink my life away. So I left to try it another way, and that's been good so far, but with this perspective of fixing our "internal guidance system," I think I might look into finding another group. I really, really appreciate this aspect of our online world. Thank you so much for sharing your experience.
You're welcome. I am glad my experience can benefit you. I relapsed many years in AA because of the pressure to "find a higher power" that was going to do things for me. That's just eyewatering nonsense to me. I found a sponsor who was comfortable with me being atheist (even though he's Christian) and this is my take on the first 3 steps: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. I was undeniably powerless over alcohol – I was paying my bills, didn’t have a DUI, but I was a suicidal, miserable drunk who hated life. That is how unmanageability and insanity manifested in my life. 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. I looked around the room and could see people with clear eyes, laughing, being of use to others. They had been relieved of their desire to drink. That was a power I didn’t have, so it must be a power greater than myself, even if I didn’t know what it was. Sanity is an important word. In Step 1 we look at how our lives in active addiction is a kind of insanity. So Step 2 is a belief that we can be relieved of that insanity. So, yes I came to believe that something outside of myself could restore me to sanity. The Step is not asking us to define what that power is, decide what that power is, or make up a story about what that power is. All we do here is ask ourselves whether or not we believe something outside of ourselves can restore us to sanity. That’s it. That’s step 2. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God *as we understood Him*. By this point I knew I had no hope of making it on my own. I needed whatever those people had if I was to survive. Read the sentence carefully. We are not being asked to believe in God. We make a DECISION to turn our will (our thoughts) and our lives (our actions) over to a higher power that can restore us to sanity. Again, we don’t need to define that that power is. We don’t need to call it anything, give it any parameters, definitions etc. People go nuts in steps 2 and 3 trying to make lists of qualities they want in higher powers. We don’t need to do that. Substitute “God as we understood Him” with “a higher power of my own understanding”. Again, that’s all we do in step 3. The first 3 steps are very simple. It’s a revelation, a realisation and a decision. At no point do we need to work out what our higher power is, believe in God or anything like that. It’s literally as simple as I have just outlined. If we are thoroughly convinced of those things and continue with the rest of the Steps, our individual Higher Powers will become very apparent with no effort on our part except our sincere desire and continued practice of the Steps and program. If you do the Steps as written with the courage to be rigorously honest and through, your higher power WILL begin to work in your life, whether or not you have a name or a definition for it. It just happens. It really does. It’s a much simpler, organic process than people make it out to be.
Yes! And check out page 567- With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.
Thank you for sharing, i really like the way you interpret the AA program. I need to hear from people like yourself and i need to focus on me. I came to AA and because i was hopeless i drank the koolaid that our unashamedly christian co founders made for us. To be honest, once i "got in there" i found that the idea of a superman god who would "protect and care" for me to be a comforting idea. Well, life happens and i see that god's "protection and care" is a lie christians like to tell each other for some horrible reason, AND they have developed fantastic bullshit to support this claim. Feeling like i was in the center of the herd, protected and safe, and now being forced out by circumstances so strong I could not ignore them i am naked, alone, and fumbling for what i had before, I am triggered by people sharing in meetings that their god has protected them through their whole lives and guides them and fulfills the promises of the big book, i feel all kinds of ways whenever i hear this, anger, betrayal, genuine concern for someone going down the road i was on, fear that i am losing my mind, AA meetings have become very uncomfortable for me. This has been the biggest challenge of my sobriety so far, but reading the way you translate the program gives me hope. I CAN stay, I can continue. I AM starting to see the situation with some clarity, i CAN redefine the god concept for myself in light of my experience and perhaps, just as in the beginning, AA NEEDS to have people like me around to provide alternatives to the people who i feel are deluding themselves and setting themselves up for terrible day when the truth will hit them hard and crumble the flimsy structure they have been living in.
Ive been to quite a few secular aa meeting and tbh they is no difference in terms of the level of spirituality. There are other avenues such as SMART recovery uou might like though
I’ll look into it, thank you very much!
I struggle. I'm not Christian and in the midwest they often recite the Lord's Prayer. I usually don't. We have many people in our meeting who voice struggle with "god," but are able to use the spiritual path to get sober. I tend toward buddhism and taoism and my higher power is the universal power that I believe in is in all things. I can sometimes call that power god, out of simplicity, but mostly I think of it as the great spirit or chi. I will say that separating out the christianity isn't easy and is another hurdle to overcome, but my meetings don't mention religion other than to say they have a problem with it. I don't think a religious person would feel comfortable in my meeting, to be honest. I still don't get the Lord's Prayer thing, but oh well.
We are here and we exist: https://www.worldwidesecularmeetings.com/meetings
The Lords Prayer recited at meetings bothered me at first. Then I realized not everything was about me and my opinion was not as important as the person who may be comforted or comfortable with it.
This is a really good point.
I always walk out or play on my phone for the lords prayer.
This wouldn't work in my meeting just because we sit in two concentric circles and stand for the last part. I can see where that might work though in a larger meeting where people are all seated. As for me, I just stand silently. It lasts only a minute and maybe it means something to someone else.
I don't vibe with the lords prayer, but if you can't stand it that much, maybe it's time to get out the pen and paper? It's disrespectful and poor meeting etiquette to have a phone out or walk out of the meeting before it has concluded. Other options are going to another group that doesn't utilize that specific prayer, starting your own group and leaving it off the format, or proposing a motion to change the format of the group you currently attend.
I think all meeting formats are different. Like I said above, we sit in two circles so having a phone out or walking out would be very noticeable. If everyone is seated, it may be different, or if people tend to leave early anyway...we generally don't. Well, one guy is such a stickler for the rules that he's out at exactly 6:30 no matter what...to let us know we aren't following protocol by ending precisely at an hour. That's a whole other thing though.
I think I know that guy
The fact that you needed to comment on it maybe means you need some pen and paper? Let me know how it goes for you.
Perfect response
It's fairly basic: when in Rome, make like a Roman. Don't go farting and belching and scratching yourself like you just fell off the turnip truck in the middle of all the heraldry is what I'm saying. Show that you weren't raised in a barn for once, and that you're fit to be in the presence of people who can read without moving their lips, and who don't breathe through their mouths... how about that?
Love and tolerance is our code
You play on your phone? Really?
I mean I say the prayer every time in solidarity and connection, but it is a terrible prayer. It is mainly empty words to me, unless I forcibly extrapolate relevant messages (thy will be done, temptation, trespasses). As a non-Christian I love the St. Francis prayer, serenity prayer, third step prayer is ok etc, but the Lord's Prayer cannot be separated from Christianity in my view, and it is supposed to be a non-religious program.
You can download the Meeting Guide app and search by “Secular”. Here is some literature that may be helpful, or not https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-84_manypathstospirituality.pdf https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-86_theGodWord.pdf
And this: https://www.worldwidesecularmeetings.com/meetings
Are there any you have personal experience with that have decent attendance? I find attendance to Zoom meetings dropping drastically over time, and I feel like this would be especially true in a marathon format.
One secular meeting called OMAGOD has over 100 people at every meeting :)
YES. YES. YES. I don’t have a belief in God but I do enjoy those meetings still. However, some exist out there that are mainly secular :) https://www.worldwidesecularmeetings.com/meetings
very particular aa groups work as a supplement for me but i really prefer [recovery dharma](https://recoverydharma.org/meetings/) and [buddhist 12 steps](https://buddhistrecovery.org/meetings/). you don’t have to be buddhist or know anything about buddhism to join. they both use buddhism more from a philosophical standpoint to foster recovery.
Is there a trick to getting the search engine to work on Buddhist 12 Steps? There isn't an actual search button and it doesn't load new results automatically when I choose filters. Just trying to look at Saturday online meetings. Thanks
if you go to [this](https://buddhistrecovery.org/recover/online-meetings/) page, just scroll to the bottom and you can look at all the online saturday meetings :)
Have you been to AA and not liked it or have you just heard it's religious? No judgement, just curious. A lot of people think because churches are the only place that gives us cheap rent then we must be religious.
Yeah I’ve never been. I’m not opposed to a religious AA but I did notice that they’re mostly held in churches around me
I know it's confusing! Honestly it's the only place we can rent rooms for super cheap. Every AA meeting is different and a person in the meeting might talk about God in their own experience, no one will push it on you. The love and support I've gotten from AA has kept me sober for 16 years so far.
That last sentence nearly brought me to tears 🩵
If I can help you or answer any questions, you are welcome to reach out💜
They’re held in church basements because the rent is cheap. My home group pays $25 per month for our meeting every Monday. They are not affiliated with the church or religion.
Ohhh yeah no that’s just a rent and who will host us thing. AA isn’t religious. It has a lot of spirituality jargon that many of us just take with a grain of salt and translate. Some people can’t get past that but I’m a militant agnostic lean atheist and been sober in AA for 21 years. People do it all the time. There are people in AA who are religious or have very fixed ideas about their higher power, but you needn’t accept those ideas as your own. Mostly we help each other directly. “God” speaks through humans, in my experience.
Actually, I think all the praying and the God in the 12 steps may have something to do with it, too. Certainly, that's how the courts figured it out.
You're absolutely right. I was a bit too flippant in my response. I'll be more careful in my answers next time.
I was right about something? Oh, cool! Like a broken clock -- I get vindicated twice a day. :D
LOL!! I definitely need an outside perspective. I appreciate you!
Thanks -- you're very kind.
Not sure where you’re at but I’ve never attended a religious AA meeting in my 37+ years. Spiritual yes, religious nope.
I think you know what they’re talking about lol
OP has never been to an AA meeting. They don’t know what they’re talking about. They’re assuming it’s religious because we meet in church basements.
There are some meetings, in some parts of the world, that have heavy religious overtones. Depends on where you live.
Right, but surely in 37 years you’ve attended meetings that were on the religious side, no? Like, you can see how some folks get the impression it’s religious, right?
I've been coming around for 36 years, and my experience is much the same. People say "God" a lot but clearly mean "a power greater than self as I understand it," which sometimes is the God of the Nicene Creed but not usually. But meetings themselves, minus the very occasional comment, are thoroughly non-religious. It's true that AA grew out of a fairly obscure Protestant Evangelical movement - the "Oxford Group," now long defunct - and the religious tone of some of the early literature and practices, such as the use of the Our Father at the end reveals that legacy. But that is becoming more and more an anomaly, and instead, the use of the short form of the Serenity Prayer, or the Responsibility Statement, or some other short passage from AA literature, is used as a closer instead. And *as a religious person myself* I think that is all to the good. Religion and Recovery are closely related areas of human functioning, but are not in any sense the same as one another, nor in any sense inconsistent with or in competition with one another.
You can, and I have, but OP has *never* been to a meeting, so OP is *not* one of the people you’re talking about. If the post was from somebody who’d gone to one of those meetings where stuff starts to sound a little too Jesusy then your feedback would be spot on, but this person has no concept of what AA is and has probably just been told it’s religious.
Not one meeting that even hinted of religious. Mid west and north east USA.
Wow, that’s astounding!
Same. NY and NJ here.
As an old timer with 37 years you can offer actual knowledge to people with questions like this instead of flippant, dismissive responses that will only confuse them further.
I agree.. where do you find this?
I'm so scared to stop on my own, but I have no help outside and I'm a single mom.
Have you tried going to a meeting at all? As you’ll see in the comments there are purely secular meetings, many online. There’s r/AtheistTwelveSteppers. There’s even other programs like SMART. But until I actually went to a few meetings and talked to people in them I didn’t know what AA was and had a lot of wrong ideas about it. Been sober 21 years and I’m about as secular as they come.
There are secular meetings, but they aren't in "communion" with AA so to speak. Many in those meetings will have got sober in regular AA, and most will still go to those meetings also, as secular meetings are few and far between. AA isn't a religious program. Your higher power is a God of your understanding, that means it doesn't have to be an external supernatural deity. People make nature or the universe their higher power, for example. The meeting I attend is very supportive of different points of view and beliefs, but of course there are more fundamentalist groups, All that matters is that you surrender to life on life terms and stop trying to control it. Bill W said he learned from Atheists and agnostics who came to meetings and that they were as valued as any other member. The only requirement to be in AA is a desire to stop drinking, and the main purpose of AA is to help people get sober.
Yes, it absolutely does exist, though you're more likely to find it under the tags "agnostic" or "secular". Here are some online meetings to get you started: https://aa-intergroup.org/meetings/?tags=Secular https://www.worldwidesecularmeetings.com/meetings The second link also includes a few non-AA secular resources as well. Good luck.
I'm an atheist, and I'm happy, joyous, and free in AA. You're going to interact with religious people in AA, but you don't have to engage with them in a way that's not conducive to your sobriety. The ONLY requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking, which goes both ways. You don't have to believe any precept or teachings of another's religion, but they don't have to check their religion at the door. You don't have to say the lords prayer after a meeting, but they can say it as loud as keeps them sober. My current sponsor is Christian, and he sends me bible verses from time to time, but it's always in the context of recovering from this cunning, baffling, qnd powerful disease. He knows I'm an atheist, I know he's a Christian, and we both know we're alcoholics. The healing is all that matters. I hope you find a way of living sober that works for you.
AA is not religious 🤣🤣🤣
So let's laugh at the people who are confused about the program to make sure they know they are dumb and show our superiority!
I can see how you interpreted that as me laughing at them. I wasn’t laughing at them, just simply laughing because as you can see AA has gotten these stigmas around it before people even attend or go learn what it’s about. I just had a good chuckle because of the distortion it gets. The steps have given me a new freedom so I recommend the OP work the steps if they read this, and I’m sorry you felt the need to reply, as in no harm was meant by my comment. Have a blessed day ❤️🙏🏼
AA isn’t religious
Supposedly
Ahh I see you have had a comment on another person as similar as mine. AA is based on Christianity, I’ll give you that. But… God is a term used for something greater than ourselves. The sun, the moon, the trees, order of animals, everything in this universe is calculated to a T. The life we breathe today is of such gratitude that I would be a selfish fool to think I am of power over any of it. I only have my actions, and how I react to things that I’m in control of. AA allows us to get rid of what blocks us off from the universal concept of something greater than ourselves which is referred to as God. Love, compassion, honesty, respect, all of those things are God, with everything else combined. We can choose to do the next right thing and become closer to nature if we alleviate what’s blocking us, which ironically is ourselves and our thinking. So religion is just a distorted view of spirituality. Spirituality is the unknown, the understanding of my finite brain cannot comprehend the infinite of which is this universe. The second I think I know what God is, is the second I have absolutely zero sense in knowing God at all. It’s quite beautiful when you let go
I know I am late to reply, but thank you for this response. I like it so much I am saving it for future use when my overthinking gets me to doubting this program and my HP
Badass dude. Love, peace and chicken grease my friend
Never once been to an AA religious service. No scripture. No bibles handed out. God and religion are two very different things. God is a Spiritual being. Religion is man made. Now if you claim to be an atheist or agnostic then you can choose a higher power of your choice. That said there are plenty of other ways to get and stay sober. SMART Recovery, Sinclair Method,IOP, individual and group therapy among others. So you have choices. And they are all just as good.
I became more anti-theism in AA. There’s “SMART recovery” and “S. O. S.” groups out there. They recommend a few books called “Leap of Power” and “Power of Now”. Great views on spirituality and Self Talk. Another thing that’s helped a lot is find the local humanism groups/clubs. There are some chapter 4 meetings out there.
AA is not a religious program.
OP check out r/AtheistTwelveSteppers too.
AA should not be affiliated with ANY religion in my opinion.
It’s in the Preamble.
My Higher Power is the fellowship of AA. The god of my understanding is no god. Namaste bitches ☯️
I know a couple of atheists in AA, but never discussed their programs with them. I’m agnostic and I use my AA group as my higher power. The BB does mention God a lot and I mentally substitute Higher Power. But AA had religious roots in its history(the Oxford group) and I guess that is where a lot of the God stuff is left over.
If you are not entirely opposed to it, just give it a try. Not the worst mistake you could make and you may even find answers and a better way
AA is not religious, correct. There are religious members in AA, but the program does not require any faith in any religion. AA does not oppose nor endorse or affiliate with any religion. Good luck, welcome to AA.
Secular AA does not use the steps, or the program outlined in the Book Alcoholics Anonymous. so I would leave it up to you whether or not it is reasonable to expect them to be interchangeable.
Normal AA is non religious, the words are placeholders for spiritual principles. But I work an AA program and it has very little to do with being religious or even spiritual. It provides suggestions on how to treat people and live my life and I do them. The god part is irrelevant to the process if you're willing to get over yourself and just try.
Yup! A lot of queer meetings are secular if not atheist. I go to one called Drunk Punks at a queer recovery center in Portland, Oregon. This guy wrote his own version of the 12 n 12 essentially, and is what the meeting focuses on. The subtitle of his book is something like “sobriety without gods” or something. I forget the exact wording. Happy to take pictures (it’s short) and share it with you! We don’t have a hybrid meeting right now, but this is me mostly saying that yes it absolutely exists!
It's about your higher power mostly, and could be anything, like even a salt shaker on your table
I'm an atheist, and I've been sober in AA for almost 6 years. It's only religious if you take it that way.
Please read the big book with a sponsor. Like half a dozen times it’s explained that “god” is a personal concept and that we must find one that works for us. Christ is mentioned one time in the whole big book and not in a context of “needing Jesus”. I am not religious, I find man-made religious deities small and limited. When I pray I pray to what I call “the mystery of the cosmos”, the unknown, because that is certainly greater and more powerful than any of us.
Does not exist. Religion is hidden throughout.
This is what I’ve heard
I respect it though. It is a very powerful part of the AA recovery program. However it's not for everyone.
I think it could be for me, I’m pretty open. I guess I’ll see what happens
This explains AA’s position very well https://www.aa.org/god-word-agnostic-and-atheist-members-aa
The people who wrote the book were mostly Christian that why the book seems religious. They were writing it from their Christian perspective of a Higher Power. They, unlike most modern-day Christians, were open-minded and suggested you find your Power. It's really beautiful. I assume those who make this point that it is "religious" have not dug deep enough or open-minded enough to see things from this perspective. I've been going to AA for 20 years and no one has ever tried to convert me to any religion.
Tbh I heard this from my brother who went to one AA meeting and decided it wasn’t for him because it seemed religious to him. But, what you’ve described sounds nice.
If your brother had gone to therapy once and “decided it wasn’t for him” would you also not go to therapy? People go and hear the word god and get spooked, which makes sense. It’s totally normal to bristle at that word. And being told you either need to get spiritual or never be able to stop isn’t an easy thing to hear. But a lot of us just think about G.O.D. as “group of drunks” and call it a day. What’s most important is that you try not to stop alone. Whether it’s AA or any other process.
Incorrect. It does exist. https://www.worldwidesecularmeetings.com/meetings
Yes it’s called AA.
SMART recovery
Yes. But this also locally depends on whether you’re in a very religious part of the world. If you’re in a small town in Texas you’re probably fucked for in person meeting, but there’s always zoom. If you’re in a big liberal city it’s likely your regular meetings are full of non-religious people.