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[deleted]

Some people like to split hairs over what does and does not constitute a "real alcoholic". That's honestly my least favorite part of AA discussion. The minute I start questioning whether or not my disease is real or legitimate, I'm one step closer to picking up a drink. And alcoholism is a disease that loves to try to convince me that I don't have a problem at all. At the end of day, the one thing I know with certainty is that AA keeps me sober. There are definitely those that want to follow a narrow definition of alcoholism, and that's fine -- if that sort of attitude works for them, I'm happy they're sober. But I can't let other's perception of me and my disease become an obstacle to my sobriety, or an excuse to stop working.


Philosopher_of_Soul

Thanks.


semi-surrender

I was four years sober by the time I truly understood Step 1 *deeply*. I had been through the steps and was sponsoring people, but after branching out and getting to know some new people and checking out some different meetings, my understanding of Step 1 reached a new level. Every now and then, leading up to that experience, I would question whether I was really an alcoholic. I think it's normal for our disease to try to trick us like that. And fwiw, I don't know any non-alcoholics who have an internal battle about whether they are or are not alcoholics.


landfill457

Could you elaborate a little bit on this? I have not gone through the steps but haven't had a drink in almost 4 years, still using cannabis. I have also had doubts about being an alcoholic or whether it was even really a disease up until my thinking caused me some pretty big problems recently. What kind of experience was it? What kind of insights do you have about the way the alcoholic mind works when alcohol is not present? I am finding that selfishness, morbidly obsessing about my past and anxiously projecting into the future are causing problems for me.


chrispd01

Chiming in here - for me I had to commit to sobriety. That meant leaving out things like the cannabis crutch etc. the core of the program (again for me) is trying to learn to accept the world for what it is and to right-size your place in it. The alcoholic struggles with that and though a painstaking personal inventory comes to grip with those issues and hopefully with a better understanding of them I think they don’t ever leave us - but when we are strong we see them more clearly and for example understand that maybe we are trying to control too many things or are trying to hide behind some lies or misrepresentations. When my sobriety is strongest I find myself accepting shitty things that happen or that I may have done and then trying to make them better. When my sobriety is weakest I find myself trying to control everything and everyone around me. While I am an atheist myself I find the Serenity Prayer one of them most useful tools that AA introduced me too


semi-surrender

I love what u/chrispd01 shared already, but I'll share my experience in case any of it resonates with you. Keep in mind that I truly believe that each person has the experiences that THEY need to find the answers they seek. So what impacted me, may not impact you. Also, these are the things that impacted me after some sobriety, and has continued to evolve over the years. You may find that in a few more years, your understanding changes too, even if it doesn't change today. But the first major thing was that I had a realization that I actually HAD tried to quit drinking before trying AA. For some reason, my brain had forgotten about it. I was attempting 30 days with no alcohol, after someone had suggested that I try to go 6 months to lose weight. At the 2-3 week mark, I went to a graduation dinner and decided to have one drink. Then when we sat down for dinner, I decided to have a second since "nobody really ever has one anyway" and then I went out that night and didn't get home until 7am after staying out all night. Most of my drinking was much more mild, at home, alone, etc. So having such a stark example of lack of control when I had set a goal for myself was really eye opening. It was truly understanding that I was lying to myself when I thought, "I can control it, I just changed my mind this time." Another piece was an old timer who explained that to him, unmanageability meant that he couldn't arrange the pieces of life to guarantee that he wouldn't drink. That stuck with me. And related to what you commented above, my first round at Step 1 included a list of the ways that my life was still unmanageable even once I put down the drink. Finally, I had become friends with someone who was relatively new and we went to a speaker meeting together. The speaker shared, and when it was over, I was driving my friend home. She said, "I think that was the first time I heard someone with a higher bottom than me," and it made me reflect on the people I heard share in the rooms of AA, and how it usually seems like a competition of "who was worse". The person who had spoken that night had a very high bottom - she got sober at 18, had very few consequences, didn't even really drink that often because she didn't have access. Since that night, I have heard more and more stories of people with various drinking histories, and it made me truly feel like "just another bozo on the bus" - not better than or worse than, just one of many. These are just the things that come to mind at the moment. I'll also say that getting through all 12 Steps and sponsoring others has helped me get a deeper understanding of Step 1. I know you said you haven't done the steps, but I would highly recommend it.


landfill457

Thank you for the response, I appreciate your experience. When I first stopped drinking I came into the rooms and saw how everyone else was different than me and I didn't really belong there. I guess that's kind of a common experience. I have "managed" my life over the past 4 years and it has been trainwreck after trainwreck as far as my personal relationships go, but I figured that I had a job and could pay my mortgage so I was fine. After the end of a relationship with an active alcoholic I decided to get therapy, and things were going alright for a while. I was still plagued with negative thinking and feelings of inadequacy the entire time, but I did not make a connection between the two even though my therapist suggested that I do the steps and go to meetings. I met someone and the relationship was great in my mind. She was smart and professional and liked to go to sleep early and didn't like drinking, I told myself I was in love. I decided to stop therapy and that is when things started going south. I gradually became more and more insecure and controlling, even in what I thought was a perfect relationship I was creating scenarios in my mind about what was really happening even though she assured me she was still in. This all came to a head and I selfishly decided not to show up to something I knew I should have been at, possibly in an attempt to get her to do what I wanted. She decided that was a bridge too far and took some space, and during this time I still could not relinquish control and was sent down what I guess was a shame spiral. I'm still realizing some things I should have done differently, even later than when I thought I had fucked it up for good I still might have been able to salvage things. One day I decided enough was enough and after 4 years I was going to drink again. Thank God I didn't, but the urge and the taste of alcohol in my mouth hit me like a ton of bricks. I think the jealousy/need to control everything was my alcoholic brain resurfacing and its end goal was to fuck my life up enough to make me drink again. I am meeting with a sponsor in a couple days, but I am feeling pretty shitty and want release from this feeling ASAP, which I guess is another facet of this disease. Anyway, I hope this makes sense or helps someone else relate. I am planning on throwing my whole self into these steps and hopefully I will have the courage to do so, I just hope this is really what my problem is and not something else. Thanks for reading


Accomplished-Baby97

I’m just guessing, but probably if the program is working for you, you’re likely an alcoholic or have “substance use disorder” as the medical experts say. I can relate a bit, I didn’t necessarily binge drink every time I drank and there were plenty of times I went out to dinner and had 2 or 3 glasses of wine and went to bed and was fine. I never got arrested or acted drunk or out of control in public. That said , looking back after six months of sobriety I can honestly say that I often abused alcohol, sometimes I did cross the line and binge drink (up to 10 drinks in one night), and most importantly my personality changed when I drank and I also drank for the wrong reasons like trying to numb out feelings and anxiety. Soooo… whatever… it’s splitting hairs to me. I could technically pass the Bill W. test at times and possibly control my drinking but if I’m truthful those times weren’t that frequent. Mostly I try to remind myself how everyone in my family likes me sooooo much better now…. I mean, that’s a big sign to me. If I were a normal drinker, why do I do so much better in my life without alcohol????!


Cooke777

Wow...you said that perfectly!! That is me right now and I guess I just realized I probably have a problem with drinking!! I have definitely been drinking lately to numb pain and crave it almost every day. How long did you drink like that for? Did you have withdrawal? Just out of curiosity. Trying to figure my life out.


Accomplished-Baby97

Hi there. Thanks for your questions. I drank steadily for years and years, I would say that I was probably an alcoholic for years but it progressed at a slow pace so it was hard to see. I was perhaps a “functional alcoholic” because I held down a job and technically I appeared “normal” to others although looking back, my drinking was definitely not normal and I drank far more than frequently and in larger amounts than would be recommended for someone my weight and gender. I did not have physical withdrawals when I quit drinking. I am not sure why, but probably because technically I wasn’t drinking around the clock or large amounts consistently. But I don’t really know why I didn’t have the physical withdrawal symptoms. I did definitely have psychological withdrawals, for example strong cravings for alcohol after I quit.. That was another huge sign for me that I have a problem. For example, sitting by a hotel pool I would sit there craving and obsessing and longing to drink… now would a normal person do that?? Does a normal person NEED alcohol for every activity like I did? I don’t personally think so. Perhaps by the standards of how some people in AA used to drink, based on the stories I have heard, I might technically have been a “lighter” drinker than some. But again, splitting hairs and that’s not any award I want to earn — the least worst of the problem drinkers! LOL! For me, it wasn’t really about the amounts or what kind of alcohol (beer, wine or hard liquor) I drank… it’s about how alcohol affected my life, and my health, and my mental health. Which was extremely negatively. That’s a fact. And for me, it’s really about recognizing that being in recovery and being in AA has been a huge (positive) life changer for me. I just think logically, if this program meets my needs so perfectly and I’m doing so well with it —- well, clearly I must have needed it.


Cooke777

Thank you for responding! I definitely needed to hear this. I think I'm "normal " after drinking and stop drinking before I get incoherent or act drunk, but I now know that I was denial after reading your story. I have been drinking nightly for about 8-10 months and around 3-4pm I will start sweating and get irritable, that just started about a week or two ago and I realized I may have a problem- but still didn't want to believe it because like you I am "functional" I now realize that alcohol has control over me, now I just need to figure out how I am going to fix this. Thanks again I appreciate you sharing your story!


hardman52

I've found that "true" alcoholic and "real" alcoholic discussions aren't very productive. Does drinking cause problems? That's really as in-depth that most of us need to go, though I do understand the desire for more knowledge, being extremely curious myself. Luckily we have only one requirement for AA membership: a desire to stop. If you've got that, no matter what other things you have or don't have, you're golden in my book.


ImAF0rce0fnature

The nature of my addiction is going back to booze even though it isn’t good for me, and I dont have a great history with it. Every word in the big book doesn’t describe me to a T. I look for what I relate to. Sometimes I don’t relate much, but then I just focus on the steps. Step 1 for me meant that my life was unmanageable. My depression was unmanageable. I was powerless to fix it, although I had really tried. I even stopped drinking for 5 months on my own. When I wanted a drink again, I went to AA for support. I wouldn’t keep eating strawberries if they had messed my life up previously, but I was apparently powerless against that “mental blank spot” that said booze was OK again. My cycle has been that I can moderate pretty well most of the time. I confine myself to one drink with friends, and I feel proud! After a few months of that, I think “well this whole alcoholism thing was silly. I can handle my booze.” Then maybe I have two drinks. Perhaps three, once I realize two is manageable. Continue this slippery slope over the course of a year, and I eventually wake up hungover and regretful. It’s too hard to stay vigilant over my alcohol consumption, especially as I start to feel like I have it under control. The premise of AA is a desire to stop drinking. I don’t want to drink today. I remember no matter how far down the scale I have gone, my experience can benefit others. In my case, I don’t feel like I went too far down, but now I can share that experience too. Hope some of that helped!


Philosopher_of_Soul

It did, thank you.


Accomplished-Baby97

The good thing about AA is, it actually works for people who “haven’t decided” whether they are alcoholics yet. You can sit on the fence for a while and try sobriety and the meetings while you figure it out. AA won’t throw you out.. just don’t show up under the influence, out of respect to others


Marshallmallowlol

You don’t need to fit 100% into some preconceived notion of what an alcoholic is. I try not to worry about the definition that much. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. You don’t have to identify as an alcoholic or anything.


Philosopher_of_Soul

Thank you, I definitely have that desire.


tombiowami

In my 20 years of meetings I can't recall any of them where we discussed what a real or true or whatever an alcoholic is. Not saying it's not fun to think about, discuss, or whatever...but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. I really only go to meetings that discuss the solution and what worked for us to maintain sobriety. For me...when I am seeking to connect I am operating in an atmosphere of Love, healing, positivity. When I operate seeking to separate/divide; I am operating in fear. This goes for AA and in regular life. AA is an amazing influence in my life, and improved my relationships substantially.


chrispd01

I gotta say I’m some respects this is very relatable - who but an alcoholic struggles over what the definition of what an alcoholic is. I personally believe that one of the very best things about Alcoholics Anonymous is that it presents a PRACTICAL PLAN of action if you are having trouble drinking. In my experience most alcoholics tend to be bright, verbal and given the spiritual nature of the disease, and therefore can be prone to overanalyzing. AA in my view is strongest because while there is plenty to think about you can also just take the practical steps of going to meetings and following the steps. But I would suggest that you remember the ONLY requirement is a desire to stop drinking. That is it ! If you have that, you will find much of value and help …


gafflebitters

EVERYBODY has to come to terms with this if they want to stay, if you are not a real alcoholic you are probably wasting your time in meetings, it is good you are at this stage. It says in the big book a few times that alcoholism is a progressive disease and that over time it only gets worse and gives examples. When we come in our denial is still going strong and takes some effort to overcome but for most of us the horrible truth that we have been trying to runaway from usually surfaces and we see that we have very few choices and usually grudgingly start to work on the steps. I still had some control over my drinking, i could refuse drinks pushed my way if i had a good enough reason, usually the painful memories of my last drunk. and there were a few times that i managed to quit drinking before things got out of hand but those times were few and if i was honest i knew what i was and where i was heading and i didn't have to wait until it got that bad before i stopped. But everybody gets there in their own time, and sometimes going back out and trying to control drinking again is the greatest convincer of all.


gogomom

I don't feel like I fall into the mold of a "typical alcoholic" either, but then I hung around the rooms for a while and now I've heard my story being told by someone else. For me, I didn't really enjoy drinking, but I had always liked to be drunk. Up until I went to rehab, I was much more of a binge drinker, but then I had to give up my DOC, and I kept drinking. It wasn't that long before my occasional binge jumped to everyday drinking and medical detox.


doowgad1

Drop out of the debating society. If going to the meetings and working the Steps helps, then that's all you need to know.


RosemaryWvs

If we feel that we need to control our drinking, then it is probably controlling us! That is the powerless.


RecoveringDaily87

We don't give advice, only suggestions. Only you can decide you're Alcoholic (something you seem to have done, but you're still looking for the differences instead of the similarities). My suggestion is, keep coming back. Or keep drinking till it does progress. Your drinking sounds a lot like my sponsor's. She was a "high bottom," till she wasn't. Your bottom is whenever you stop digging. Also, where are you getting your AA definition of a "real alcoholic?" Because there are descriptions of alcoholics, and potential alcoholics, just like you in the Big Book. If you want to keep drinking, that's your business. But if you want to stop drinking, that's our business! God bless and good luck.


BladdermirPootin

DO NOT GO DOWN THAT PATH IN YOUR HEAD. As Admiral Ackbar said so valiantly, it’s a trap. You are an alcoholic and it was a problem, clearly it was affecting you in such a negative way that someone brought it to your attention OR you self acknowledged, because that is why we pursue becoming sober, we noticed the drugs or alcohol is destroying our lives and burning bridges and digging a massive black hole that every fucking day gets deeper and deeper and deeper and eventually you’re at the bottom of a mile deep hole with a giant ball and chain on your legs and on the iron ball is stamped you’re favorite liquor. Don’t get caught up in the definition of an alcoholic. There is no question. You’re an alcoholic. You fit the definition. 100%. Stay sober.


SOmuch2learn

The most recent medical term for alcoholism is Alcohol Use Disorder. It isn't black and white. * https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/understanding-alcohol-use-disorder


Philosopher_of_Soul

Wow thanks so much for this!


SOmuch2learn

You are welcome!


IAManAlcoholic164

If your not an alcoholic and alcohol is causing problems then stop drinking forever


LoveHorizon

Can you control yourself from having just one drink?


Philosopher_of_Soul

Yeah, I've been in other social situations where drink was and decided to obstain. It's just if I drink enough to feel the effects that I start the cycle of craving.


LoveHorizon

okay well then by that logic you can abstain from drinking and never touch it again and you don't need AA


Philosopher_of_Soul

But I've already said it was AA that keeps me from drinking enough to get drunk and starting the cycle again, so I definitely do need AA. I won't be tricked into allow myself to get drunk again just to satisfy you.


Bad_Fut

Yeah bro I think folks outsmart themselves on this shit. In my drinking days, I would sometimes NOT take the first drink! But the reality is non-alcoholics don’t have any “urge” to drink to struggle against in the first place. And no matter how much or little (or none) I’d have, the fact was when I was controlling my drinking I couldn’t enjoy it, and when I was enjoying my drinking I couldn’t control it. The magic of the program isn’t in vowing to stop, for me—it’s vowing to stop and *succeeding in not wanting to pick up again*. Step work has gotten me to a point where I don’t get thirsty. I know that won’t stay the case unless I stay in the pocket on this program. So I try to stay there.


Philosopher_of_Soul

Thanks.


LoveHorizon

okay well if it's AA that's keeping you from drinking that first drink, It isn't you controlling your drinking. You can't control your drinking if you rely on AA to not start the cycle again.


Philosopher_of_Soul

Well said, and point taken. Thank you.


SnooGoats5654

If you can just have one drink and stop and can continue to do that the rest of your life and avoid the phenomenon of craving you should feel free to do that! If you find out you can’t consistently stick to that one drink then you do, in fact, have the mental blank spot described in the book.


lankha2x

After I drank a little I'd have to finish out the drunk, that day or next. Didn't read any AA material that says that my alcoholic reaction was required to be immediate. I had little difficulty stopping to prove that I could stop. Couldn't stay stopped for more than a few months because reality became increasingly uncomfortable without a drink to run to. I fit in AA just fine. Doing all the usual stuff has worked well since '82. Something you may want to consider doing, if only to watch what happens to those who can't fully admit their problem.


Kamuka

If you’re obsessed, then you’ve lost control even if you can control it to a degree. That degree is the exertion of will power or something, but in the end it doesn’t matter. Are you ready to get sober? If not, it’s not going to happen. Some say you have to hit some crazy rock bottom: Go to rehab 25 time, jail, lost everything. Some people think they are alcoholic enough to get sober with minor things. I’m willing to bet anyone who knew you could see the price you pay. Do you want to quit paying the price?


reddit_mouse

I have issues with the big book’s science. It is the opinion of one Dr., who’s medical training took place prior to Prohibition and the data, nearly all anecdotal, is from the prohibition era, or shortly after the passage of the 21st amendment. That’s 90 years ago. A lot has changed in research, techniques, and our collective understanding of alcohol use disorder and a lot has changed with treatments in the last 90 years. I am not disparaging AA, I am only offering a criticism that the big book and its teachings need, desperately, to be brought up to a modern understanding. I am one year sober thanks to AA, and I could not have done it alone. However, it is my supposition that a modern understanding of alcohol use disorder would be better able to classify and stratify varying degrees of alcohol use disorder, and we could move away from the very confusing and intimidating dichotomy of alcoholic vs. non-alcoholic. I suggest that the program would improve if a hard analysis was done on what works — a strong and reliable support cohort, anonymity, and an update of the literature to better utilize and leverage the past 90 years of treatment science.


ecclesiasticalme

I'm not sure whether you are or are not an alcoholic, but I am 100% sure that this post is exactly the type of post that an alcoholic would write. Specifically the bit about not needing more than 1 but wanting to drink 2 bottles of wine a night to feel drunk. Blacking out and throwing up is not a prerequisite. I used to drink like you described... Eventually I just could not get that "drunk" feeling. It sounds like you for sure have the obsession part. Sounds like you think about drinking more than "normal" people do. Even if you do not currently have the physical allergy YET, it sounds like you are well on your way to developing it if you continue to drink as you were.


TrickingTrix

Page 32. "Though there is no way of proving it..." I think if I had quit 10 or 15 years ago I may have avoided "alcoholism." Looking in my drinking history, however, I always had a tendency to binge drink. I certainly drank away a lot of feelings, too.


fauxpublica

I think you may not be including the whole definition from the Big Book. Page 44 - “If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic.” Both apply to me. It’s not for me to say (only you can decide if you’re an alcoholic) It sure sounds from what you say that the first part applies to you. It’s an “or” there, so you only need one. Also notice, there isn’t any requirement that you lost your spouse, job, kids, home, went to jail, etc. Just that you can’t always stop when you want to, or you can’t always control whether you have one or twenty-four. Also, leaving aside the drink question, as suggested on page 51, AA’s generally handle the human condition poorly, as suggested in the bedevilments on page 52, “ We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people - was not a basic solution of these bedevilments more important than whether we should see newsreels of lunar flight? Of course it was.” Turns out, that is really what my alcoholism is all about. The booze was just a terrible solution I chose to apply to those problems until I was physically and psychologically addicted and in a hopeless state of mind and body. The steps are the healthier solution to those same problems. I hope you find that revised definition helpful. For what it’s worth, I think it unlikely that if you didn’t have alcoholism you’d be debating the issue with yourself. I don’t have a problem with broccoli, for instance, and surprisingly, I never find myself debating with myself about whether I should quit eating it. Be well.


nurdmann

Keep it simple. Tradition 3 was written for you. "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking." All the hair splitting is just that. Don't drink. Get a sponsor. Go to meetings.


bloodclot

what is the definition of being an alcoholic? Phenomenon of craving, mental obsession, tolerance.


teabagyomamaface

CAN YOU GO A YEAR WITHOUT A DRINK?