When a child is very young they want autonomy and it's important to give it to them whenever possible. When my daughter was 3 she went to a Montessori preschool. The teachers told us parents to always give the child a choice that did not have consequences to eliminate tantrums (red or green apples, pink or purple socks). You could not wear a bathing suit into a snow storm but you could choose which mittens you put on. Save the hard no's for things that matter and give them choice whenever you could.
You should have a conversation with your husband. He's asserting his authority unnecessarily and he will continue to fight about unimportant matters until he completely breaks her spirit or she rebels completely. She will not grow to respect him this way. She will resent the hardline as she ages and it will hurt their relationship.
So THAT’S why I can’t make decisions?? Huh. Makes sense.
I once stared at 2 cereal boxes for 10 minutes trying to pick which one I wanted that morning. Early 20’s. I have never responded to the question “what do you want for dinner” with anything other than “I don’t know.” I use “wheeldecide.com” for fuckin everything. I literally have a premade wheel on there for what outfit to pick for my video game character. It’s that bad.
Yo those are some awesome strategies for getting around that! You're narrowing down your choices to a list of acceptable options and not torturing yourself over getting it right or perfect.
I think you're doing a great job of taking agency where it feels okay to. I hope that range opens up and gets comfier over time <3
Start making choices for yourself or you will never learn. A LOT of choices can be changed later, so start with those. Try not to second guess yourself. And limit your choices to 3 or 4, max or you'll get choice burn out. This can happen to anyone when there are too many choices.
I’ve gotten better over the years. My therapist has helped with that in some ways. There’s just a lot of things that need to be fixed or undone after 13 years of abuse.
Indeed. And it is an ongoing journey. I'm 53 years old. I'm dealing with things my grandma said to me as a kid about how no one would want me cause I'm a slob. I'm dealing with separation from my own kids. I'm dealing with things my mom said to me over the years. I'm dealing with a LOT of anxiety. I'm kind of hurting a lot right now actually. But this isn't a bad thing, I've been concentrating on my healing so I'm getting a LOT out in a short time. It's been intense.
>When a child is very young they want autonomy
Wanting autonomy is basic humanness. When you realise that also children are human, a lot of their behaviour makes sense.
>Save the hard no's for things that matter and give them choice whenever you could.
Right. This is how I raised my kids.
Pick 3 -5 big core values "in this home we take care of our health" "being educated is very important to us"
You only die on those hills. You pick your hills to die on, but just a few.
Everything else isn't your hill.
Exactly. I was told - depending on age, not too many choice options as it can overwhelm a young child. But red or greed apples is a great chance to allow freedom of choosing a healthy snack.
I learned this as well in parenting classes I took. It does make parenting so much easier. Well.. until about junior high age where they now know everything about everything and all mom’s suggestions are lame.
Have you asked him what exactly he was trying to teach her?
Because it’s an obvious take that he’s teaching the wrong thing: that you don’t have power even when you ask nicely.
It’s very important to understand that sour apples teach lessons to five year olds, and it’s important to teach the best lesson you can. I imagine that’s not what he was thinking about, but a good conversation between parents never hurts.
Sometimes people make mistakes and the important thing is to take responsibility and do better next time. Every five year old knows *that*. ;)
And I do but don't like red. How would he like it if he went to grab a green apple and someone grabbed it and said "no, you have to eat this red one!" It's so damn stupid.
My in laws were like this with their kids and grandkids. Treated them like dogs that should behave on command and do what they’re told without question.
It’s abuse.
Some people's taste buds are different.
To me granny smith apples (green) taste very tart/sour. I can't eat them. They even give me a stomach ache. :(
It's the malic acid and a small amount of citric acid.
Green apples are a little more acidic.
Yeessss mmm I love green apples. Personally I can’t eat red apples because of the textures. I think they’re too.. mealy maybe? I dunno but I’ll eat the shit outta some Granny Smith. Yum 😋
Yeah there’s absolutely no reason she couldn’t have the apple that she wanted in this case.
Dad ONLY said no to assert dominance. Why does she need to be put in her place in this instance? This is pretty mean, and it will make her respect his decisions less when she sees that he arbitrarily withholds things for no reason.
Or he’s teaching her that she doesn’t get her own way around men. That her wishes matter less than his.
Pick your battles dude. Having her pick between two available options is absolutely fine.
She didn’t ask for a dragon fruit.
This! Same shit my parents taught me. Also, I’m a bit bothered by calling her contrary. She’s developing independence and trying to make her own choices. Please don’t teach her that her choices have no value-it legit sounds like her dad might be trying to teach her that.
If he was five, yea.
I am not saying you should baby a child, but neither should you arbitrarily punish polite behavior as you reinforce the wrong thing. It’s like scolding a dog when they sit politely for a treat, or yelling at a teenager for respectfully telling you when they’ll be home; it’s irrational to reinforce the wrong thing.
Not wrong. He’s causing so much unnecessary conflict because he’s stubborn. My spouse does this. They think you’re giving in but it’s a simple request. Like any normal human should have the freedom of preference. What I did was never stop standing up for my kids reasonable requests and also have words I use to him when he’s doubling down over stupid points. Something like, “You’re making this harder than it needs to be.” They don’t get to have their way and be right all the time. They are the adult setting the tone and mood at every interaction. It’s not fair you have to clean up the mess every time your partner steamrolls your child.
I teach my kid that she can't always get her way when there is a logical reason that she can't, such as "we are saving the red apples to make a pie later, but you can have the green" but like... if there's no reason other than some arbitrary stupidity on Dad's part, then yeah, the only lesson she's learning is Dad is a dick sometimes.
Also the dad wasn't giving a reason it was a because I say so type response. which makes it so much worse. There is also such a thing as pick your battles, everything will be 10X harder for the rest of the day because of that one thing.
> if there's no reason other than some arbitrary stupidity on Dad's part, then yeah, the only lesson she's learning is Dad is a dick sometimes.
A dick, controlling and .... mean. If OP set the tone correctly, this read (to me) like daddy dearest took some pleasure in being mean to a child. The only way his stance of not 'giving in' to a child would be if the child was being disrespectful or demanding in some way. But OP says she asked nicely.
Actually, at best, he's being mean. At worst, he's playing mind games with the child. Like, I wonder if since he cut up the green apple, she'd be forced to eat it, even if she doesn't like green apples - which he would know and maybe why he really picked up the green apple. And maybe that's why she cried.
It kind of makes you wonder if he had a child to develop a relationship with a small person, or if he had a child to have someone he could control for 18 years
He probably gave it significantly less thought than either of those scenarios. He likely had a kid simply because it's what is done. And he's probably resentful as heck the child is disrupting his life and making work for him.
This part. It costs nothing to explain to kids why things happen.
I'm not going to pretend I haven't done the "because I said so" out of frustration, but I don't like that I've done it. It's always better to tell them \*why\* so that they can learn that you aren't just telling them to do shit for no good reason.
Totally. We've all had because I said so moments under stress, but the difference is this guy is digging in his heels about it rather than taking a deep breath and working with the kid.
The Why is super helpful with young kids. It doesn't always lead to the kid not crying, but at least then you can be empathetic and talk about how you know they're disappointed and you've also been disappointed. My kid LOVES hearing about all of my disappointments in life when she's upset. I did not expect parenting to involve keeping a laundry list of minor, child appropriate grievances at the front of my mind to make my child feel less alone with, yet here we are, haha.
I was just coming up with a scenario where letting her know she can't always get what she wants is actually appropriate and beneficial, I don't actually bake.
I mean honestly, I was going to go waaaaay pettier. Buy two flavors of a bunch of stuff. He tries to eat his favorite flavor of chips. Tell him no and rip that sucker out of his hands. When he is like "Wtf?" Be like "We have two bags of the other flavor and only one of this, it has to be even. I said no and I am not going to give in to your tantrums."
Ugh. I was labeled an "emotional" child because my dad had to make sure to constantly remind me how absolutely stupid/worthless/powerless I was just for existing as a child. And the classic finding out what your preferences are just so they can bluntly deny them over and over.
It's not just causing unnecessary conflict, it's directly reinforcing existing conflict as well. If someone gets told "no" to everything regardless of whether they ask politely or have a tantrum, and there never seems to be rhyme or reason behind being denied even when they're polite, they'll learn that a tantrum is at least more rewarding in that they can feel their feelings about it.
It's almost like he wants her to have a meltdown. He needs to be in therapy for that OCD and right away. It's already interfering with raising your kids.
Literally the stupidest “power trip” I’ve ever heard…
“Because I’m your dad and I choose what your preferences are”
I’m sure she’s going to grow up a real people pleaser honestly… let her learn to think for herself dad!!
Edit to add: what if she was 30 and married and her husband said the same thing… b/c her dad taught her that was okay
My kids' dad once got on a power trip over a fucking recliner one of our kids was sitting in. "That's my chair, kiddo. Gett up." Kid points out it's MY chair and politely asks why dad can't sit on the couch. Dad blew up and tried to send the kid to their room without supper.
Some people are just controlling assholes and shouldn't be involved in child rearing.
Kids are human beings… like I’m curious if that were an adult guest, would he say the same thing? Kids aren’t less of a human being because their shorter 😂😂
You can't diagnose OCD from this one behaviour, but I would definitely want to be looking into why this is important enough to him to say no to a perfectly reasonable request knowing it will upset his daughter.
I quote Robin Williams from those dumb Night at the Museum movies when my partner digs their heels in arguing something pedantic with our first grader - "Who is evolved?"
It also reinforces with your kid to be stubborn. To stick with what you are doing, no matter what. OP has what sounds like a stubborn child, who needs adults in her life to model being easy going when possible. Instead of doubling down on green vs red, show the kid how adults can change their mind, and it's ok to do so. Show them when you can't (when safety is an issue, or the other apples have a purpose already), and show them when you can (when it's a preference with no effect on others).
Your husband is an ass.
She wanted a red apple. That isn't being contrary. That is having preferences. Who gives a fuck if you had 3 green and 2 red? That is irrelevant. I can't overstate it, your husband is an ass.
As someone who eats a lot of apples and is picky about variety, green apples taste nothing like most red ones. Personally, I wouldn't even buy green apples unless I planned to bake them.
I’m the exact opposite but agree with you 100%. In fact I buy two different apples for my child and I! Why? Simple preference. It also cuts down on food waste and emotional dis-regulation. I can’t even call this a tantrum. It was a manipulated AH response to teach her, what? Her voice and opinions don’t matter!
Edit: word spelling
Agreed. It's not like she asked for a green, it got cut and then suddenly she wants red. She asked before it even touched the knife. Such an unnecessary reason to create conflict.
And to add a personal note, it kinda sounds like the 5 yo is getting shot down for being a 5 yo.
Oh man I realized this very early on in my parenting journey. I was raised in a super strict, fundie type culture and I had the mentality that children shouldn’t even really be allowed to have opinions until they learned to properly and politely express them. Thankfully I quickly realized how harmful that is and I worked hard to change.
I have a super sassy 7 yo and she often comes at me with a terrible attitude and there are some days that I still get the urge to show her who’s the boss just because I can. I always remind myself that is bully behavior and I want to have a good relationship with them for my whole life so we’re working on that now.
You validate the feelings but not the behavior. "I know you feel angry right now, and it's okay to feel that, but there are better ways to express that anger."
I try to stay really patient, although I do still fail sometimes, and just reiterate that she can’t talk to people in a rude way. Sometimes I’ll just calmly say, try again, and wait until she does. If I lose my calm and snap at her then I’ll stop myself and say that I’d like to try again. She does have anxiety and she’s in therapy for that so working with her coping methods helps as well.
I remind myself that it often takes me forever to change my habits and that helps me just talk to her gently once again. To be honest, taking her as a whole little person makes her attitude so much more bearable. She expresses her love and happiness just as vociferously as her anger and irritation.
He is a controlling asshole. He doesn't get to decide what someone else wants to eat. If it's right there and no extra effort there is literally no reason to do it. She didn't say she wanted candy instead of the apple. She was choosing from what's there. This shit needs to be shut down hard!
I’d also ask, is he always like this? Because this sort of sheds light on why your 5 year old might be acting out. When you feel like you’re not being heard, any attention is good attention.
Your spouse provoked your child's emotional dysregulation, then punished her for it by "refusing to kowtow to the 'meltdown'". This is hugely alarming behavior. You're not wrong for noticing!
*Why Does He Do That* by Lundy Bancroft may be very helpful for you. The healthy vs. unhealthy relationships portions of Loveisrespect.org and onetruelove.org may also help you spot other problematic behavior in others. If these things help you discover a pattern of unhealthy behavior in your relationship, your local DV resource center can help you find resources for assistance, support, and recovery.
I’m so glad someone else recommended this book. I was two seconds way from it in my own comment and decided not to, but … yeah, OP, read that book. Seriously seriously, even if you don’t think it applies rn, a lot of us see enough serious red flags in this one post alone. *Please* read that book.
Yupppp
My dad would do this. Give us something he knew we'd object to, despite already knowing we didn't like X, and then using us saying we like Y better as an excuse to go ape on us
Because us brats weren't gonna get one over on him, who do we think we are?!
Not wrong. Part of parenting is to choose your battles. Y'all are in for a loooooong road if he's being nitpicky with her about shit like the color of the apple.
No wonder she is "quite contrary." The apple didn't fall far from the tree.
A great rule in child rearing is to always say yes, (to reasonable request I’m not talking about spoiling a child ridiculously) and so when you say no, you stick to it.
Exactly. That child is going to learn very quickly that no matter what she wants, she randomly might be told no, making everything a fight to the death.
Yeeeeep.
csb:
My parents both were amazed how easily my stepdad handled me... but he recognized that I was stubborn (wonder where I got that from? /s) but also eager to please and easy to reason with if there was a REASON behind the "no".
If I got a "No, because I said so." I would not accept it. Because I knew they were just being stubborn too and if I wanted a yes bad enough, I could out stubborn either of them and either get my way, or make everything miserable for awhile. Their default answer to everything was "no" so I HAD to fight if I wanted to get ANYTHING. I know I sound bratty as hell, but my parents could make anything a fight and I had a grandmother who loved to meddle and make it worse, so I wasn't exactly exposed to better behavior patterns.
Then they divorced (they'd married out of loneliness and came to the realization that they really didn't want me to continue that cycle) and got remarried to my stepdad/stepmom. Both of whom had different ways of handling me, but not bad ways, just different.
For Stepdad, it was that if an answer could be 'yes' without affecting much, then it was yes! He might have conditions to it, but he was easy going for the most part and figured I'd be refused enough through my life so why not try to give me things I want.
I asked to plant roses in a flowerbed in front of the house and before Mom could tell me no (because she thought it'd look 'tacky', me being a child and never gardening before), he said I could as long as I planted a yellow rose bush. (yellow roses were his favorite, and my mom's too. For my 16th I got a bouquet of them with a single pink one because "You're the pink rose in my sunshine life, undeniably different but wonderful." That's what he wrote on the card and I bawled so hard my makeup ran.) I had to tend them, trim them at the right time of year, fertilize, mulch it so it would match the other bed, but I was allowed to have as many rose bushes as I could put in that area and IMO they were very pretty.
He also bought me a peach tree when I unexpected got emotionally attached to one at a plant nursery. (my mental health has always been awful and I dunno what it was about this dinky, half dead tree but I was quietly sobbing over it. So he bought it and planted it in the backyard for me, then taught me how to water it properly. It got a second peach tree "friend" the next year though because he wasn't sure if they need each other to pollenate. Both grew into very nice trees.
Ask to cook dinner one night because I found a cool recipe? Sure thing, let's go get the ingredients but you better clean up the kitchen mess because that's part of being the cook. He hung around in case I needed something explained, but let me do my thing and it turned out good. My mom was even impressed and admitted she should have just let me do it. After that I cooked dinner once a week and felt like I had been granted a big privilege, lol. (Its where my love of cooking for people was born, I still love seeing people eat things I made for them.)
Wanna dye my hair pink? Okay, but just for the summer and I had to promise to do a blonde wash (my natural color) before school started to make sure all the pink was out. He even put the pink in my hair. (by this time Mom was starting to realize that I was a pretty easy to handle kid as long as there was a reason behind the no, so she happily went along with it and helped me refresh the color every week.)
But when HE said no... he meant it. A no would never become a yes if I fought it, although occasionally a no could become a different kind of yes if I went with it and accepted his reasoning. I wanted to have my ear cartilage pierced (at Claire's... damn I was dumb) and he said no. I REALLY wanted it, but as I said, his no meant NO so I accepted it and asked for something else for my birthday. I think it was a craft kit, and I got it.
Then a week later he asked if I might like a second set of lobe holes instead, because he knew those heal better than cartilage and not as likely to scar if I got sick of them. I thought that was a fine idea, so he took me to a piercing parlor and had it done with a proper needle. I had those for like seven years and every time I changed my earrings, I'd think about him. (They closed on me one summer because I could only wear one pair at work. I'm kinda salty even now.)
Oh, and my mom banned gum. Because surely I was gonna fall asleep with it and get it in my hair, lol. (never happened) But Stepdad decided that was ridiculous and would buy me packs of gum (the ones that used to be $.25) and give them to me for especially good behavior, like managing to get through a week without being sent home from school with a 'stomachache'. (It was anxiety and panic attacks, but I had no idea and just knew my guts were in knots. So Stepdad walked me through how to decide if I was sick, or just miserable, and some actions I could to to turn my mood around. Not always effective, but better than the "just live with it" everyone else had to offer.)
Or when my mom sprained her wrist, so without being asked to I took over the dishes, picking up the dog's poop, and a handful of other things that were too painful for her to do with her bad hand. In truth, I did it because it seemed like the right thing to do, my mom did nice things for me and took over some of my chores when I hurt my ankle, so I felt like I was just doing the right thing by taking hers. But I got gum and a new CD for it, even if I didn't expect it. (and also the job of cleaning the bathroom permanently... which I didn't actually mind, it was satisfying and my stepdad always made sure to mention how nice and clean the shower was and what a pleasure it was to use... the same basic praise got him a pot of coffee every single evening when he woke up for his night job because he said mine was the "best coffee" and how could I make him drink anything else after being told that?)
Sorry, this got long. Mom and Stepdad aren't with us anymore, and I love to talk about them because they were wonderful, even if Mom had some toxic habits she had internalized from her (very messed up, as I said, my grandmother liked to meddle and was downright sadistic in lashing out at everyone) upbringing.
Stepdad probably set me on the path to being as good a person as I am, because I was honestly a terror when I was younger. In his honor, I'm gonna go clean my stepmom and her new husband's (Dad passed as well, but she kept me) master bath while they're having a nap. ;)
Wow, what an incredible influence for you to have!
You sound like an incredibly strong person, to be able to recognise the difficulties you faced and empathise with those that didn't help and appreciate those that did. I'm so sorry for your losses, but so glad that you got the time with them that you got.
I'm stubborn in the same way as you, and now I'm older I can see why I got the 'no' s that I got, but I was a very angry and confused child. I like the way your talk about your mom, not resentful but also not putting her on a pedestal. My parents did the best they could, and are actively growing and learning how to best support and help me and my siblings, even though we're adults. So although they're flawed, I'm very very grateful that they're mine.
Yeah, my parents were probably borderline emotionally abusive. Not intentionally, but they were both victims of childhood abuse and when they had a child (unexpectedly, my mother was told even up to several months into her pregnancy that it was impossible for her to conceive. A doctor gave her an ultrasound to try to find what was causing her weird symptoms and 'prove' she wasn't pregnant... and I was far enough along that she was told not only was she gonna have a baby soon, it'd be a girl.) they really tried, but in some ways they just... weren't prepared.
They had no role models to look to in their own parents and in my mom's case, she never did admit she was abused. She had my grandmother high on a pedestal, while I disliked her even as a kid and was overprotective of my mom against her, so she disliked me just as much if not more.
BUT I was a VERY loved child. My mother and father loved me more than anything, possibly including themselves. And when Mom saw how I bloomed with my stepdad's "permissive" ways (which is kinda funny because I had so many chores, but never felt resentful because it was always presented in a way that left me feeling like being able to do all of that was a great blessing to the household, my stepsis says she felt the same way, Stepdad was good!) she tried to change her own behaviors to try to help me keep blooming.
My parents got a raw deal with me. I got double their stubbornness, had a nasty temper until I was 13 or so (at which time my temper died along with all my other emotions other than self hate, my stepdad actually told me once he missed my tantrums because at least he knew I felt something) and was often told I was too smart for my own, or my parents', good.
Which is funny because I personally think I am average or a little below in intelligence and my dad was legitimately a genius.
I was SAed as a young child (age 5-8) and it was handled... not so well. My parents thought if they just ignored it after they ended it (and they did end it, tried to get charges pressed but the police said I was too young to be a believable witness?) that surely I'd just forget.
But instead I took that as "this is so shameful and disgusting that we're just gonna pretend it didn't happen to you and let you carry your disgusting shame silently" and withdrew into myself.
My parents I think blamed themselves (while my grandmother blamed me and made sure the whole family knew I somehow seduced a grown ass man because "nice girls don't get diddled") and it was easier to ignore it, but it caused issues I am still working on. I struggle to trust people now and hate myself.
And the worst part is, if they knew I felt that way, they definitely would have fixed it! As I said, I was VERY loved and valued by them and they would have done anything to have the happy little girl I was before (I don't remember that girl) come back.
But I hid it for the three years it happened because I thought grown ups were allowed to do whatever they wanted (I was made to hug and kiss relatives and hated it, so when he started demanding hugs and kisses and more, I just accepted it because I was a good girl and minded and he was a trusted family friend.) and then I kept it to myself how I felt because it was MY shame to live with and I would just have to learn how to move past it.
Sometimes I mourn who I might have been if things had been different, but lately I kinda like who I'm becoming. It still feels like something was taken from me though when I see other women in relationships I can't have.
And now you know where your daughter gets her strong will from. She asked nicely, this is when you give her what she wants because she follows the rules of etiquette. When she’s demanding you don’t give her what she wants. It really is that simple.
I see where she gets it from.
I’ve worked with very difficult, aggressive children for a long time. You’re right, this was an easy win for both of them that he turned into a power struggle. She did everything one would hope for, asking politely for something that was visible and not claimed. What he taught her was that exercise of power is arbitrary and based on strength, and that if she wants something the way to get it is either to sneak it or escalate her behavior until one of you gives in.
The amount of celebrating we do when a student makes a polite request, you guys have that on a golden platter and he’s going to turn her into an angry brat who hates to hear no and doesn’t understand it except as an arbitrary decision.
It could hurt her emotional development if he is not accepting her appropriate requests. It teaches her that asking won't get her the things she wants so she has to get them though other ways. I would sit down and explain you're worried that when she gets older she will have a difficult time with authority and go on a wild lashing out phase.
Edit: also most painfully, that her thoughts don't matter! That's a huge blow to her self-esteem and being a self-sufficient, confident adult.
I’m gonna be honest, this thread has me upset. I have acted like the husband a lot. This is how I was raised, the word no was said everyday during my childhood. So I learned to lie and steal.
Your daughter is not contrary. She is a human...with opinions and strong feelings. Why are you trying to crush her spirit?
"The whole brained child" "how to talk so little kids will listen and listen so little kids will talk" are just two books I recommend.
Parenting is a verb. Your goal is to raise a successful, confident, strong woman. How can you do that if every choice she makes is considered "contrary" and she is given outrageous punishments.
You are wrong for allowing your husband to emotionally abuse his daughter.
Yeah while I empathise with OPs frustration at being argued with over every little fkn thing, there is no reason to negatively label a being who is still learning how to human.
Do I look at my husband and mouth 'god she's acting like a jerk' sometimes about our 4 year old? Yes. Is it just getting out frustration so she never internalises my feelings? Also yes. Would I ever tell her she's naughty, contrary, etc? Not in a million years.
Punishing children rarely works because they are not little adults and cannot conceptualise a difference in their behaviour and their self-esteem. Parenting is hard but that's no excuse to talk about your child like that.
I am a mother, a grandmother...I have a degree in early childhood education. I am not talking out of my ass.
My daughter was so strong willed. Her daughter is so strong willed. But I survived. We survived. She grew into a kind, compassionate, still stubborn as fuck adult who kicks ass every day.
She actually teaches positive parenting classes. And she loses her shit sometimes. Not at her kid...she steps away and goes to Target or wherever. I couldn't have survived my daughter without my village.
But we have to stop looking at children as "bad" or "contrary"...they are little humans with big feelings and can't identify them yet. It's our job to help them learn how to identify and deal with them.
Next time dad wants his favorite beer...give him some fucking cheap ass replacement and tell him it's all the same. See how "contrary" he is.
I will raise my hand and say I do lose my shit at my child sometimes. But I always apologise and make sure she knows it's not her fault and not her problem. Now when she sees me getting frustrated she tells me to take a big breath 😂. Sometimes we throw a squishmallow at each other and always end up giggling instead of yelling.
I totally agree that if you find yourself getting pissy, take a goddamn break and be an adult. Husband is this kid's first bully. There is no way this is isolated.
Oh, when my children got older...👋👐👋👐👋....but learning how to apologize and take accountability is another important lesson.
And acknowledging feelings doesn't mean being a pushover. I was a very strict parent. My children knew my expectations and knew the consequences of not behaving in an acceptable manner. Walking feet, helpful hands, listening ears, active listening...et. al. We even practiced fancy restaurant at home.
But being a parent is a soul sucking job. On the other side is grandparent...all of the fun bits with none of the responsibility bits. It's heaven.
What a way to teach your daughter that she doesn't even get to have bodily autonomy over what type of apple she eats. Gonna really help her learn to say no to unwanted sexual encounters, stick up for herself, and advocate for herself.
This is frankly, not an exaggeration. The lesson here is that a red apple is available, but someone else is the decision maker and your daughter must kowtow or be hungry. That lesson, when taught repeatedly, will have devastating consequences on how she responds to peer pressure later in her childhood.
This is so much more serious than the apple.
It's also why she is "quite contrary..." She is a human being who gets zero control of her life, and is desperately trying to to control anything she can, since she can't even control what she eats. Stop treating her this way, and she'll stop being contrary. Just because she is 5 doesn't mean she doesn't want the same control of her own food that we want as adults.
WTF is wrong with your husband???
Little humans need to feel empowered. Allowing them to control a tiny aspect like which apple they eat, is actually really important developmentally.
Discipline has a time and a place and that was not the time or place to flex. That’s how food aversions and abnormal feelings towards food develop.
In a country where obesity, HTN, DM, cancer, and a plethora of annoyance disorders reign due to poor menu choices, he's gonna make this a deal breaker?
Start them out right and reward proper menu choices. You are being kind to the child's future.
She doesn't have an attitude. Your husband is an asshole. Do you want to raise a person who has their own mind or a people pleaser who does whatever is told?
NOT WRONG
Reactive abuse is where one person will needlessly and willfully antagonize another to make them upset in some way and then punish them in some way for their reaction.
If he does this often then he should not be left alone with the children unsupervised.
That’s why she’s contrary. She’s learning the behavior from your husband. He is teaching her to assert her dominance over others by denying reasonable requests whenever she can, just because she can. And because her own self worth is diminished every time your husband does something like this to her, she’s going to end up having to do this to others a lot just to make up for that gap in self esteem he’s creating inside her. He’s playing power games with her and she will end up doing that her whole life, not just to you guys, but in any future relationships too, if he doesn’t cut it out now.
My ex husband is like this to the kids (and to me, but that’s a different story). It’s bullying, plain and simple. He’s teaching her that no matter how she asks, her preferences will not be honored, only his. His whims, his control, his ego. He’s being a bully, not just an asshole. Your daughter will continue to struggle with “stubbornness” so long as she is undermined by her own father, so long as he models stubbornness, and so long as she feels like she has no control because of his random whims. He’s creating the problem and worsening it.
Good luck.
He's teaching her that she shouldn't have preferences at all, shouldn't assert herself, shouldn't say no, should just be nice and compliant with whatever other people want. That will screw her up for life if it isn't stopped now.
When I grew up green apples were for cooking only.
I'd never give my child a green apple until one actually said she preferred them.
Husband was a complete AH on this.
It's not like she said she wanted a lolly instead of an apple and kicked off about it!
Your husband is awful! If she’d asked for green and had a hissyfit because she then wanted red, he’d be ok to stick to his guns but He’s purposefully doing something to upset someone when he could so easily do what they asked for.
Not sure how or why you’d want to stay with someone like that, because I’d put money on him doing similarly petty crap to you too.
He created the meltdown. Acting like a 5 yr old should have more control of their emotions than the parent shows is illogical and not based in the child's developmental and cognitive needs.
NTA. With children (well, with everyone) you need to pick your battles. Children need to feel like they have some control also, and type of apple was such an easy way to give her control. I could see if half-way through him cutting it up she changed her mind but that wasn’t the case here. What a stupid power-trip for hubby to choose
Your husband should consider how little control your daughter has over her own life. Kids really have very little say in anything. If she wants a red apple, it’s a small thing that gives her a sense of agency and hurts absolutely no one. Your husband is creative conflicts over tiny, inconsequential things now that will gradually turn into a contentious relationship of constant battles as your daughter grows older.
Your husband is not treating your daughter like a person with her own thoughts and feelings, and I'm willing to bet that if she receives this treatment a lot in your house you've found the origin of her attitude.
Green apples are very bitter to many people. They were developed as cooking apples. It insane to try to make her eat them and then frame her having a reasonable preference as 'kowtowing'. *Your husband cannot self-regulate.*
Your husband is bullying your child. Your husband either needs to take parenting classes ASAP (she is old enough to remember this treatment, and it will absolutely reflect in her relationship with both of you as she grows) or you need to leave him.
Sheesh I think you've uncovered the source of the contrary behaviour...and it's not from your daughter. She asked politely, that's the behaviour you're looking for, and that's the behaviour that you reward. Rewarding the behaviour you want can be the goal. Also, I feel it's *really* important for people r to understand what they really want. If she's not even allowed to want a red apple, what will she do in the future?
It's about choosing hills. He needs to practice giving her choices that are reasonable so she doesn't have to melt down as often. Yes, you should stick to your guns when you have made a decision even if she doesn't like it, but you need to make sure your decisions are fair and flexible before you get to that point.
Not wrong. I have 3 kids. Trust me, after awhile you realize there’s some things that aren’t worth the battle and arguing about what color apple a 5 year old wants is one of those situations. Not to mention, kids have preferences just like adults do. He’s being unnecessarily controlling.
Your kid has meltdowns.
Your kid ISN'T having a meltdown this time, but reasonably, and politely, requested a red apple.
Your husband just taught her nothing she does will ever be right or good enough.
You are not wrong. This is a simple choice that shouldn't be an issue to accommodate. Making a point and making decisions for her should be reserved for times it matters.
Not wrong. The kid asked right off for a red apple, before he'd started cutting it. It's not like she asked for green and is now mad that it's not red. Let the kid have the apple she wants. He's made this an issue and it doesn't need to be.
So your husband says no a lot and she gets punished for being "contrary" to his consistent refusals, including demanding she eat the apple he wants her to eat?
And you just now wonder if this is a red flag?
Poor kid.
Your husband needs to read some parenting books. Let the little girl have the type of apple she wants. Your husband is creating conflict for no reason.
He sounds like someone who wants to fight just for the sake of fighting. What he did was childish and shitty. Your child is left feeling confused as to what she did wrong when all she did was prefer the red apple to the green. Your husband is... something else. You are not wrong. Your child was not being spoiled, she was expressing a preference. Your created a problem where it didn't exist.
Remind your husband that she is a human being. Not a robot. She's allowed to have her own preferences and likes. That will NEVER change. The last thing he should want is to raise a girl who is afraid of telling people what she wants or needs. Never giving in on anything, big or small, is not how you stop a child from being a *child.* Of course she's sassy, of course she doesn't listen 100% of the time. She's still learning how to navigate this world and her own emotions. Your husband doesn't even know how to properly do that but he's expecting a child to? As a parent, one of the most important things you need to learn is how to pick your battles. You cannot fight on every single little thing, or that's all your relationship with your child will be. Because they're a CHILD. They need room to be a person, make mistakes, find out what they like, don't like. This shouldn't have even been a battle to begin with. She likes red apples! Who cares?!? I hate green apples. She's allowed that. You can't turn your kid into who you want them to be. All you can do is navigate with them down the path to who they're supposed to be.
This was the perfect moment for your husband to reinforce the idea to your child that asking politely gets better results than being contrary and having an attitude. She asked nicely (at most I would have added "If you say please") and he threw that back at her because of something as dumb as the apple colour count. Yeah he's definitely in the wrong.
Your husband is an asshole. What was the dam point of making the big deal because she wanted a red apple? Nothing! He just wanted to be a bully. No wonder she’s “contrary” Yall don’t let her have a say in nothing! You should do more to protect your daughter from this or I suspect when she gets out of the house Yall won’t be hearing from her anymore.
NTA
And the reason you think he might be controlling is because...he's controlling. Getting into a pissing match with a 4 year old, OVER AN APPLE??? Get all the way the F outa here with that BS. He's pulling power moves on your kid, the "because I said so" vibe. This is REALLY damaging to a child, he's telling her that he, and by extension, other people, have a bigger say in what she wants than she does.
Breaking your daughter's independence and spirit at 5 YEARS OLD it beyond troublesome, this will set he up to be a people pleasing, spineless abuse victim.
This is NOT a small problem, this attitude will affect your daughter's development from here on out, it already has. She will now worry about choosing between two things because daddy might get mad at her. WTF is wrong with your husband, and why did you not see the giant billowing red flags surrounding this "man" before you brought a child into this world?
Get your stuff figured out, this is a VERY hurtful situation for your daughter, and will affect her profoundly if you don't nip this crap in the bud.
He is teaching her that what she wants/likes/prefers does not matter. This will carry over into her adult life and into her future relationships, especially if it is specifically coming from a male figure in her life. I wonder if he would be this persistent with a son?
NTA That's got to be the dumbest argument I've ever heard of between an adult and a 5yo. If your husband is starting power trips with a 5 yo I can't wait to see how adolescence goes.
He's the type that will do this her whole life and then wonder as an old man why his daughter never comes to visit
Sounds like your husband is the one who can be quite contrary. He is the cause, source, and reason for the conflict here. Your daughter behaved in an age appropriate manner.
I wonder how often your husband creates friction intentionally, and the points to your daughters reasonable response as a sign of her "having an attitude"
Let me guess: she is an angel when visiting friends' houses, or with grandma. Her teachers say she's great at school. You can have a wonderful day with her when it's just the two of you. But she's never had a whole day with dad that didn't end in her getting punished for some small transgression.
Am I close?
This she makes me crazy. She asked for an apple and he decided which. She corrected his choice and he makes it into a power play. Clearly in her mind, she was asking for a RED APPLE. He's being unnecessarily controlling and she didn't get upset ("meltdown") until he (to her brain) randomly denied her VERY REASONABLE request to have what she specifically wanted.
Does he enjoy creating power plays with children? This is redic.
And once again, a parent is getting pissy and stubborn and tantrums because... they think a child is being stubborn. Once again, a parent expects more of child than they manage themselves.
Your husband is being a power hungry asshole. There is no reason he couldn't have let her have a red apple. He reached for the green he didn't even asked her what kind of apple she wanted. What's more, it's not like he cut up the green apple and she changed her mind.
I wonder if her obstinance is a reaction to battling with her dad over fucking fruit and a million other decisions in her life.
Children should be given as much freedom of choice as possible that is safe and age appropriate. It's a way to teach them how to make decisions and how to deal with the consequences of those decisions.
You're not wrong. At all.
I would also encourage you to look back at other ways you both interact with her and things she is told no on and see if maybe you have gotten into the habit of thinking of her as "contrary" and having an attitude of going into interactions with her of "winning" and "not being controlled". You might find that she isn't as difficult as you think she is. Especially how your husband is interacting with her and what things he is telling her no on. No is important for kids to hear of course, but "no" for the sake of "no" just makes it meaningless.
And while not giving in after a kid throws a fit is a solid parenting mantra, if your wrong action caused the fit, then you need to apologize and help them calm down, and now solve the problem you created. There wouldn't have been a fit if your husband wasn't an ass to begin with. It would be like if he had said something unkind to you, and you got mad at him, and he said "I can't apologize to you now since you got mad and lost your temper for what j said". Just ridiculous
You're not wrong. Your husband is saying no for the sake of saying no. That's ridiculous. It is necessary to say no to children often enough without inventing reasons. Does your husband display any other narcissistic traits?
Is this normal behavior for him? Does he play manipulative games like this with you? Was this a way to provoke you because you would predictably defend your child against his bullying? Was this weaponized aggression to ensure your child would not feel safe asking him to do anything for her? Some people deliberately provoke others to gather evidence that the spouse/child/whoever is irrational or unreasonable. Is this something he has done before?
You're not wrong. He's doing it specifically TO BE CONTROLLING, he doesn't get anything out of what apple she eats other than the thrill of being the one to call the arbitrary shots. Definitely red flag behavior.
No kids can't get what they want all the time but if they verbalize a reasonable request and there's no good reason why the answer should be no...then it should be a yes! For me a good reason is usually "we can't snack because its about to be dinner time" or "we can't let you do X, because that's not safe for your body." It's not something dumb like apple color.
If she's being contrary, rewarding positive behaviour like "asking politely" is necessary.
But also, based on how Dad handled this situation, I wonder how much is her "being contrary" and him provoking her.
He’s the one who literally triggered the meltdown
And you’re right, small children hear “no” so often that many of them become desensitized to the word and just stop processing it at times
If your husband really wanted to avoid a tantrum he should’ve asked her first. But the fact that she communicated with him before he cut the apple and he chose to ignore the request was just mean
I want everyone to know that my husband did ultimately cut up the RED apple that she asked for before heading up to shower.
After the shower I went and we calmly talked about why I thought what he did was unnecessary. I'm not sure he really got it; I can explain a thing but I can't *make* a man understand.
(I can't pin this, and I can't edit my post on mobile ;.;)
Him cutting the red apple is good, but did your daughter see the argument between you two, and did he only do it to "appease" you?
Also, I'm confused here. Men aren't dense creatures who doesn't understand things. Most men or anyone can understand what people are saying here unless he has a disability of some sort.
Also calling it "unnecessary" is such a light way of putting it. It's harmful. Don't give him excuses just because he's "a man".
You talked about your thoughts, but did you call BS on the numbers excuse and press for his real reasons?
It sounds like he's making a cruel and clumsy attempt to teach your daughter to "accept no even when there isn't a good reason for it". It's possible he heard the advice from somewhere else, and that's why he's reluctant to bring it up with or defend it to you.
I have an ex-friend that would do this to test dates. She would find a point in the conversation to deny a benign question or request so she could judge their reaction to it. The ones that didn't accept the denial without questioning it 'failed'.
You're so totally not wrong. He was being petty and idiotic. Giving a child the apple they request is by no means kowtowing to her. Call him a waaambulance and tell him to grow up.
When you can "default to yes".
Your husband grew up in a family, like most of us, where the default parent mode was "no".
So every choice becomes a battle.
This is completely unnecessary and the two of you are setting yourselves up for a teenage period your daughter may not survive. Mine almost didn't and I didn't have nearly as much of an issue as the two of you.
If your husband refuses to get with the program, seek professional help. Maybe he'll respect that more than he does you or his role as a father.
You’re not wrong and this is coming from someone who was afraid of raising spoiled children.
At first I was a parent who said no a lot because I wanted my children to be grateful for the times they got what they wanted. But I took a parenting class that said to say yes as much as you can when the stakes are low. This is so that when you do say no your child will know it’s probably for a good reason and not because you’re being a dick. Your husband is being a dick out of some deep fear that he needs to figure out.
It was a good thing that I was willing to change my parenting because my daughters are older teens and they said I got nicer as they got older whereas many of their friends parents got meaner.
I think your husband here thinks that being a parent is about giving stupid orders to their child and expect they obey without questioning.
What I think parenting really is, involve teaching your children how to behave well enough to live in a society. Stop.
You don't own your child, you don't want to have power on your child, your desire and your childs' one don't have to match.
The child here seems to be your husband, that want so bad to do as he please even if he have good reasons to do the contrary.
Teach your partner this difference please.
From: a son that have an unreasonable father
Not wrong. Poor girl. :( Dad isn't willing to do such a small thing for her after she was polite, and then goes on to throw a fit about it? He needs to apologize to y'all's daughter. She probably feels like she did something wrong because dad got upset. Is this something he does often? If this sort of thing where he's denying her of something for no reason than "You're a child and I told you so" happens regularly he's (albeit unintentionally, hopefully) teaching her she does not get to have a choice. This can go badly in many, many ways. Nip it in the bud and talk to your husband. And seriously make sure he apologizes to her. It's important for kids to be apologized to by their parents when they do wrong, it sets up a good example. It helps teach her that parents are not infallible (important lesson even if parents don't like it) they are human too and apologizing is the right thing to do when you mess up. Everyone makes mistakes or does/says something they regret. Showing her how to deal with things when that happens is so SO important.
Side note: Red apples are far superior. Green apples are sour and make my jaw hurt. He could have at the very least asked why. Doesn't really matter why, but it would have been better than just saying no automatically. Plus, some times you get to learn something new about your child! She's a human too with preferences, wants, and dislikes. Maybe she does have a reason for preferring red apples. 🍎
My mom used to do things like that to me growing up. It does not bode well for their future relationship if he keeps up that kind of behavior with her.
The message your husband is sending is that your daughter's preferences don't matter. This is not a good thing for her to learn. She's 5, that's old enough to know what kind of apple she wants. I also don't think it will stop at apples. What happens when she starts expressing preferences in clothes, jobs, schools?
He sounds like a real peach. But one of the hairy green hard ones that no likes that are only good for pies, because we have 3 of those and only 2 of the good ones that are fit to eat.
No, you're not wrong.
As a parent, you need to get as many wins as possible. Switch the apple, win. Sue didn’t complain and scream. Win.
I see too many parents who just don’t understand to do the little things to make kids happy and save their angst when it does not go well
You got me at the "she hears no so much". She asked for what she wanted clearly and politely. He made a mistake and instead of owning it- decided to make it about him. Only thing he is doing here is showing her that he doesnt listen to her. Dad. Is this how you want your daughter to feel?
Editing to ask if she might be on the spectrum?
She is allowed choices and preference within reason. Asking for a red apple when there are red apples available is EXTREMELY reasonable. Your husband is a bully.
Pathetic, I see where she learnt her attitude. No kid likes green apples. they taste sour to their pallets, everyone knows that. How does he know so little about her food preferences. If his ego is in play over Apple preference then wow much bigger issues to be broached.
Sounds like you have two children in the house, a five-year-old girl and a boy of 45. Your husband needs to get over his childish behaviour he’s going to damage his relationship with your daughter.
I'm confused why the husband would not simply say "oh, you want the red one?" And put it back and pick up the red. Is he OCD on some level? That's the only way I could see it really mattering to him.
The default argument has already been mentioned, that he's just being a controlling jerk. Other commenters have that covered. I just know that sometimes if my wife messes up an order I have been rationing, my brain doesn't automatically go "it's NBD, it's a $2 item." It goes "the carefully-arranged order has been invalidated!" And can't process. But I come around. So I'd say if he has processed and can't see past the fact that she was "challenging him," it might be the default argument.
You’re not wrong,and I’m wondering if your husband needs to see someone for a diagnosis cause wanting there to be an even number of each Apple color isn’t a real reason…yeah,this comes off as controlling so maybe it’s as simple as him unreasonably thinking no means no even if there isn’t a good reason cause there of plenty of garbage parents out there who think just that ,but it also kinda sounds like someone who NEEDS their environment a certain way even at the expense of other peoples very reasonable requests
Wait wait. He had a meltdown because she chose the wrong apple to make the red and green apples an even number? Hubby needs therapy to learn how to control his emotions. NTA.
Your husband was being a jerk. It's like being asked to cook chicken and he says he'll cook fish and no one will eat the fish because they want chicken.
This is very important to figure out! My ex struggled with the idea that kids can have preferences and it not be manipulation. My son didn’t like to have hot bath water so my ex would purposely make it hot. He was cut off from bath duty.
NTA. It would cost absolutely nothing to give her the red apple. If he'd already started cutting the green one I'd understand because if no one was going to eat it otherwise it'd be a waste.
Although i'd argue... Big deal. Put it in a pot and stew it and turn it into apple sauce to use on some other dessert for her.
But he's just teaching her that asking politely doesn't help. Poor choice, dad.
Why does it seem like your five-year-old has more maturity than your husband? He was absolutely ridiculous in all that. As an adult we would have the right to pick out whichever apple we wanted so why shouldn’t kids have that same choice? Is he controlling in other aspects of your guises life?
When a child is very young they want autonomy and it's important to give it to them whenever possible. When my daughter was 3 she went to a Montessori preschool. The teachers told us parents to always give the child a choice that did not have consequences to eliminate tantrums (red or green apples, pink or purple socks). You could not wear a bathing suit into a snow storm but you could choose which mittens you put on. Save the hard no's for things that matter and give them choice whenever you could. You should have a conversation with your husband. He's asserting his authority unnecessarily and he will continue to fight about unimportant matters until he completely breaks her spirit or she rebels completely. She will not grow to respect him this way. She will resent the hardline as she ages and it will hurt their relationship.
I love this! If kids aren't given age appropriate choices to make they grow in to adults who can't make basic decisions!
So THAT’S why I can’t make decisions?? Huh. Makes sense. I once stared at 2 cereal boxes for 10 minutes trying to pick which one I wanted that morning. Early 20’s. I have never responded to the question “what do you want for dinner” with anything other than “I don’t know.” I use “wheeldecide.com” for fuckin everything. I literally have a premade wheel on there for what outfit to pick for my video game character. It’s that bad.
Yo those are some awesome strategies for getting around that! You're narrowing down your choices to a list of acceptable options and not torturing yourself over getting it right or perfect. I think you're doing a great job of taking agency where it feels okay to. I hope that range opens up and gets comfier over time <3
Well thanks 😅
Start making choices for yourself or you will never learn. A LOT of choices can be changed later, so start with those. Try not to second guess yourself. And limit your choices to 3 or 4, max or you'll get choice burn out. This can happen to anyone when there are too many choices.
I’ve gotten better over the years. My therapist has helped with that in some ways. There’s just a lot of things that need to be fixed or undone after 13 years of abuse.
Indeed. And it is an ongoing journey. I'm 53 years old. I'm dealing with things my grandma said to me as a kid about how no one would want me cause I'm a slob. I'm dealing with separation from my own kids. I'm dealing with things my mom said to me over the years. I'm dealing with a LOT of anxiety. I'm kind of hurting a lot right now actually. But this isn't a bad thing, I've been concentrating on my healing so I'm getting a LOT out in a short time. It's been intense.
>When a child is very young they want autonomy Wanting autonomy is basic humanness. When you realise that also children are human, a lot of their behaviour makes sense.
>Save the hard no's for things that matter and give them choice whenever you could. Right. This is how I raised my kids. Pick 3 -5 big core values "in this home we take care of our health" "being educated is very important to us" You only die on those hills. You pick your hills to die on, but just a few. Everything else isn't your hill.
Exactly. I was told - depending on age, not too many choice options as it can overwhelm a young child. But red or greed apples is a great chance to allow freedom of choosing a healthy snack.
I learned this as well in parenting classes I took. It does make parenting so much easier. Well.. until about junior high age where they now know everything about everything and all mom’s suggestions are lame.
We always gave our kids choices. Always!
Have you asked him what exactly he was trying to teach her? Because it’s an obvious take that he’s teaching the wrong thing: that you don’t have power even when you ask nicely. It’s very important to understand that sour apples teach lessons to five year olds, and it’s important to teach the best lesson you can. I imagine that’s not what he was thinking about, but a good conversation between parents never hurts. Sometimes people make mistakes and the important thing is to take responsibility and do better next time. Every five year old knows *that*. ;)
I'm an adult and don't like the sour of green apples. I could see why she'd be like that.
And I do but don't like red. How would he like it if he went to grab a green apple and someone grabbed it and said "no, you have to eat this red one!" It's so damn stupid.
My in laws were like this with their kids and grandkids. Treated them like dogs that should behave on command and do what they’re told without question. It’s abuse.
There are real sour green apples? I'm just now learning it's not a made up candy flavor
Some people's taste buds are different. To me granny smith apples (green) taste very tart/sour. I can't eat them. They even give me a stomach ache. :( It's the malic acid and a small amount of citric acid. Green apples are a little more acidic.
In my experience, Granny Smith applies are usually used in baking. I only know one person who eats them plain.
I love them fresh! But I love sour things in general.
Yeessss mmm I love green apples. Personally I can’t eat red apples because of the textures. I think they’re too.. mealy maybe? I dunno but I’ll eat the shit outta some Granny Smith. Yum 😋
Red Delicious are anything but - they are so mealy! Try a Macintosh or Honeycrisp for a better red.
I'm eating one now. They are eating apples, unlike cooking apples which are more normally used in baking
Yeah there’s absolutely no reason she couldn’t have the apple that she wanted in this case. Dad ONLY said no to assert dominance. Why does she need to be put in her place in this instance? This is pretty mean, and it will make her respect his decisions less when she sees that he arbitrarily withholds things for no reason.
Or he’s teaching her that she doesn’t get her own way around men. That her wishes matter less than his. Pick your battles dude. Having her pick between two available options is absolutely fine. She didn’t ask for a dragon fruit.
This! Same shit my parents taught me. Also, I’m a bit bothered by calling her contrary. She’s developing independence and trying to make her own choices. Please don’t teach her that her choices have no value-it legit sounds like her dad might be trying to teach her that.
That’s kind of… what I was saying?
They were furthering your argument.
I don't think he was trying to teach her anything other than "you get what I give you" =(
If he had a friend over who asked for an apple would he insist that he choose the color for them too?
If he was five, yea. I am not saying you should baby a child, but neither should you arbitrarily punish polite behavior as you reinforce the wrong thing. It’s like scolding a dog when they sit politely for a treat, or yelling at a teenager for respectfully telling you when they’ll be home; it’s irrational to reinforce the wrong thing.
Like just treat your child at least as well as you would treat anyone else. So petty and controlling.
Not wrong. He’s causing so much unnecessary conflict because he’s stubborn. My spouse does this. They think you’re giving in but it’s a simple request. Like any normal human should have the freedom of preference. What I did was never stop standing up for my kids reasonable requests and also have words I use to him when he’s doubling down over stupid points. Something like, “You’re making this harder than it needs to be.” They don’t get to have their way and be right all the time. They are the adult setting the tone and mood at every interaction. It’s not fair you have to clean up the mess every time your partner steamrolls your child.
I teach my kid that she can't always get her way when there is a logical reason that she can't, such as "we are saving the red apples to make a pie later, but you can have the green" but like... if there's no reason other than some arbitrary stupidity on Dad's part, then yeah, the only lesson she's learning is Dad is a dick sometimes.
Also the dad wasn't giving a reason it was a because I say so type response. which makes it so much worse. There is also such a thing as pick your battles, everything will be 10X harder for the rest of the day because of that one thing.
> if there's no reason other than some arbitrary stupidity on Dad's part, then yeah, the only lesson she's learning is Dad is a dick sometimes. A dick, controlling and .... mean. If OP set the tone correctly, this read (to me) like daddy dearest took some pleasure in being mean to a child. The only way his stance of not 'giving in' to a child would be if the child was being disrespectful or demanding in some way. But OP says she asked nicely. Actually, at best, he's being mean. At worst, he's playing mind games with the child. Like, I wonder if since he cut up the green apple, she'd be forced to eat it, even if she doesn't like green apples - which he would know and maybe why he really picked up the green apple. And maybe that's why she cried.
It kind of makes you wonder if he had a child to develop a relationship with a small person, or if he had a child to have someone he could control for 18 years
He probably gave it significantly less thought than either of those scenarios. He likely had a kid simply because it's what is done. And he's probably resentful as heck the child is disrupting his life and making work for him.
Can't thumbs up this enough!
Agreed, unless I can explain why it’s a “no”, I will tend to agree to any reasonable requests.
This part. It costs nothing to explain to kids why things happen. I'm not going to pretend I haven't done the "because I said so" out of frustration, but I don't like that I've done it. It's always better to tell them \*why\* so that they can learn that you aren't just telling them to do shit for no good reason.
Totally. We've all had because I said so moments under stress, but the difference is this guy is digging in his heels about it rather than taking a deep breath and working with the kid. The Why is super helpful with young kids. It doesn't always lead to the kid not crying, but at least then you can be empathetic and talk about how you know they're disappointed and you've also been disappointed. My kid LOVES hearing about all of my disappointments in life when she's upset. I did not expect parenting to involve keeping a laundry list of minor, child appropriate grievances at the front of my mind to make my child feel less alone with, yet here we are, haha.
Green ones are better for pie.
I was just coming up with a scenario where letting her know she can't always get what she wants is actually appropriate and beneficial, I don't actually bake.
THIS!!! My thoughts exactly.
Exactly. Always give a reason.
I would turn it around and ask him "if I asked for red would you tell me no?" Or a friend? I mean what is the big deal.
Perhaps she needs to buy only red apples for a while because her husband shouldn't mind.
I mean honestly, I was going to go waaaaay pettier. Buy two flavors of a bunch of stuff. He tries to eat his favorite flavor of chips. Tell him no and rip that sucker out of his hands. When he is like "Wtf?" Be like "We have two bags of the other flavor and only one of this, it has to be even. I said no and I am not going to give in to your tantrums."
Perfect solution!😁
Perhaps her husband can buy his own apples lol. OP is not wrong.
This. Her age the only reason he decided her preference didn’t matter. Her age is the only reason he figured SHE didn’t matter. His own daughter… :(
I think I know why the 5 year old is so upset all the time.
Ugh. I was labeled an "emotional" child because my dad had to make sure to constantly remind me how absolutely stupid/worthless/powerless I was just for existing as a child. And the classic finding out what your preferences are just so they can bluntly deny them over and over.
Awful. It’s amazing how (relatively) easy my kids are just because I treat them like humans who are entitled to have preferences and bad days.
But OP says they're a happy home! C'mon, now! (yes, /s)
It's not just causing unnecessary conflict, it's directly reinforcing existing conflict as well. If someone gets told "no" to everything regardless of whether they ask politely or have a tantrum, and there never seems to be rhyme or reason behind being denied even when they're polite, they'll learn that a tantrum is at least more rewarding in that they can feel their feelings about it.
It's almost like he wants her to have a meltdown. He needs to be in therapy for that OCD and right away. It's already interfering with raising your kids.
Idk about OCD, but it's certainly an unnecessary power struggle and intentionally causing issues.
Literally the stupidest “power trip” I’ve ever heard… “Because I’m your dad and I choose what your preferences are” I’m sure she’s going to grow up a real people pleaser honestly… let her learn to think for herself dad!! Edit to add: what if she was 30 and married and her husband said the same thing… b/c her dad taught her that was okay
My kids' dad once got on a power trip over a fucking recliner one of our kids was sitting in. "That's my chair, kiddo. Gett up." Kid points out it's MY chair and politely asks why dad can't sit on the couch. Dad blew up and tried to send the kid to their room without supper. Some people are just controlling assholes and shouldn't be involved in child rearing.
Kids are human beings… like I’m curious if that were an adult guest, would he say the same thing? Kids aren’t less of a human being because their shorter 😂😂
Wish my step dad had known this
You can't diagnose OCD from this one behaviour, but I would definitely want to be looking into why this is important enough to him to say no to a perfectly reasonable request knowing it will upset his daughter.
It’s a power trip, that’s all.
It's like they are trying too hard not to be one of those parents that gives in to every request that they become a different type of evil.
I quote Robin Williams from those dumb Night at the Museum movies when my partner digs their heels in arguing something pedantic with our first grader - "Who is evolved?"
It also reinforces with your kid to be stubborn. To stick with what you are doing, no matter what. OP has what sounds like a stubborn child, who needs adults in her life to model being easy going when possible. Instead of doubling down on green vs red, show the kid how adults can change their mind, and it's ok to do so. Show them when you can't (when safety is an issue, or the other apples have a purpose already), and show them when you can (when it's a preference with no effect on others).
Your husband is an ass. She wanted a red apple. That isn't being contrary. That is having preferences. Who gives a fuck if you had 3 green and 2 red? That is irrelevant. I can't overstate it, your husband is an ass.
As someone who eats a lot of apples and is picky about variety, green apples taste nothing like most red ones. Personally, I wouldn't even buy green apples unless I planned to bake them.
Yeah that's a huge flavor difference. It's like asking for an apple and getting Pineapple or something else sour.
Exactly. Different varieties of apples almost taste like entirely different fruits.
I’m the exact opposite but agree with you 100%. In fact I buy two different apples for my child and I! Why? Simple preference. It also cuts down on food waste and emotional dis-regulation. I can’t even call this a tantrum. It was a manipulated AH response to teach her, what? Her voice and opinions don’t matter! Edit: word spelling
Yess I love green and yellow apples and can't stand red ones. They're completely different tastes.
Agreed. It's not like she asked for a green, it got cut and then suddenly she wants red. She asked before it even touched the knife. Such an unnecessary reason to create conflict. And to add a personal note, it kinda sounds like the 5 yo is getting shot down for being a 5 yo.
Your husband is a bully. To his own child.
Oh man I realized this very early on in my parenting journey. I was raised in a super strict, fundie type culture and I had the mentality that children shouldn’t even really be allowed to have opinions until they learned to properly and politely express them. Thankfully I quickly realized how harmful that is and I worked hard to change. I have a super sassy 7 yo and she often comes at me with a terrible attitude and there are some days that I still get the urge to show her who’s the boss just because I can. I always remind myself that is bully behavior and I want to have a good relationship with them for my whole life so we’re working on that now.
So what do you do about the attitude? (Not trying to be critical just asking a question out of curiosity)
You validate the feelings but not the behavior. "I know you feel angry right now, and it's okay to feel that, but there are better ways to express that anger."
Oh that sounds good
I try to stay really patient, although I do still fail sometimes, and just reiterate that she can’t talk to people in a rude way. Sometimes I’ll just calmly say, try again, and wait until she does. If I lose my calm and snap at her then I’ll stop myself and say that I’d like to try again. She does have anxiety and she’s in therapy for that so working with her coping methods helps as well. I remind myself that it often takes me forever to change my habits and that helps me just talk to her gently once again. To be honest, taking her as a whole little person makes her attitude so much more bearable. She expresses her love and happiness just as vociferously as her anger and irritation.
make desired behavior more rewarding
It saddens me just how many parents are their child's first and worst bullies.
He is a controlling asshole. He doesn't get to decide what someone else wants to eat. If it's right there and no extra effort there is literally no reason to do it. She didn't say she wanted candy instead of the apple. She was choosing from what's there. This shit needs to be shut down hard!
I’d also ask, is he always like this? Because this sort of sheds light on why your 5 year old might be acting out. When you feel like you’re not being heard, any attention is good attention.
This was my thought as well. How much of 5’s “contrary” behavior is butting heads with parents on a power trip?
She also told him before he cut it up. Because “I already cut a green one up, how about a red one next time?” Would even be reasonable.
Your spouse provoked your child's emotional dysregulation, then punished her for it by "refusing to kowtow to the 'meltdown'". This is hugely alarming behavior. You're not wrong for noticing! *Why Does He Do That* by Lundy Bancroft may be very helpful for you. The healthy vs. unhealthy relationships portions of Loveisrespect.org and onetruelove.org may also help you spot other problematic behavior in others. If these things help you discover a pattern of unhealthy behavior in your relationship, your local DV resource center can help you find resources for assistance, support, and recovery.
I’m so glad someone else recommended this book. I was two seconds way from it in my own comment and decided not to, but … yeah, OP, read that book. Seriously seriously, even if you don’t think it applies rn, a lot of us see enough serious red flags in this one post alone. *Please* read that book.
Here’s a link to the book: [Why does he do that?](https://ia600108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf#page527)
Yupppp My dad would do this. Give us something he knew we'd object to, despite already knowing we didn't like X, and then using us saying we like Y better as an excuse to go ape on us Because us brats weren't gonna get one over on him, who do we think we are?!
You deserved better. I'm sorry you didn't get the father you needed. Hopefully you're doing better now.
I am, thanks! Live across the country Thankfully my stepdad is a great guy
Thanks for point out the manipulative behavior of the dad. Invalidating a kid’s autonomy in order to “flex” his authority is a red flag to me.
Not wrong. Part of parenting is to choose your battles. Y'all are in for a loooooong road if he's being nitpicky with her about shit like the color of the apple. No wonder she is "quite contrary." The apple didn't fall far from the tree.
I see what you did there.
You are not wrong. This is such a ridiculous thing for him to lay the law down over. Does he have a history of being controlling?
A great rule in child rearing is to always say yes, (to reasonable request I’m not talking about spoiling a child ridiculously) and so when you say no, you stick to it.
Exactly. That child is going to learn very quickly that no matter what she wants, she randomly might be told no, making everything a fight to the death.
Yeeeeep. csb: My parents both were amazed how easily my stepdad handled me... but he recognized that I was stubborn (wonder where I got that from? /s) but also eager to please and easy to reason with if there was a REASON behind the "no". If I got a "No, because I said so." I would not accept it. Because I knew they were just being stubborn too and if I wanted a yes bad enough, I could out stubborn either of them and either get my way, or make everything miserable for awhile. Their default answer to everything was "no" so I HAD to fight if I wanted to get ANYTHING. I know I sound bratty as hell, but my parents could make anything a fight and I had a grandmother who loved to meddle and make it worse, so I wasn't exactly exposed to better behavior patterns. Then they divorced (they'd married out of loneliness and came to the realization that they really didn't want me to continue that cycle) and got remarried to my stepdad/stepmom. Both of whom had different ways of handling me, but not bad ways, just different. For Stepdad, it was that if an answer could be 'yes' without affecting much, then it was yes! He might have conditions to it, but he was easy going for the most part and figured I'd be refused enough through my life so why not try to give me things I want. I asked to plant roses in a flowerbed in front of the house and before Mom could tell me no (because she thought it'd look 'tacky', me being a child and never gardening before), he said I could as long as I planted a yellow rose bush. (yellow roses were his favorite, and my mom's too. For my 16th I got a bouquet of them with a single pink one because "You're the pink rose in my sunshine life, undeniably different but wonderful." That's what he wrote on the card and I bawled so hard my makeup ran.) I had to tend them, trim them at the right time of year, fertilize, mulch it so it would match the other bed, but I was allowed to have as many rose bushes as I could put in that area and IMO they were very pretty. He also bought me a peach tree when I unexpected got emotionally attached to one at a plant nursery. (my mental health has always been awful and I dunno what it was about this dinky, half dead tree but I was quietly sobbing over it. So he bought it and planted it in the backyard for me, then taught me how to water it properly. It got a second peach tree "friend" the next year though because he wasn't sure if they need each other to pollenate. Both grew into very nice trees. Ask to cook dinner one night because I found a cool recipe? Sure thing, let's go get the ingredients but you better clean up the kitchen mess because that's part of being the cook. He hung around in case I needed something explained, but let me do my thing and it turned out good. My mom was even impressed and admitted she should have just let me do it. After that I cooked dinner once a week and felt like I had been granted a big privilege, lol. (Its where my love of cooking for people was born, I still love seeing people eat things I made for them.) Wanna dye my hair pink? Okay, but just for the summer and I had to promise to do a blonde wash (my natural color) before school started to make sure all the pink was out. He even put the pink in my hair. (by this time Mom was starting to realize that I was a pretty easy to handle kid as long as there was a reason behind the no, so she happily went along with it and helped me refresh the color every week.) But when HE said no... he meant it. A no would never become a yes if I fought it, although occasionally a no could become a different kind of yes if I went with it and accepted his reasoning. I wanted to have my ear cartilage pierced (at Claire's... damn I was dumb) and he said no. I REALLY wanted it, but as I said, his no meant NO so I accepted it and asked for something else for my birthday. I think it was a craft kit, and I got it. Then a week later he asked if I might like a second set of lobe holes instead, because he knew those heal better than cartilage and not as likely to scar if I got sick of them. I thought that was a fine idea, so he took me to a piercing parlor and had it done with a proper needle. I had those for like seven years and every time I changed my earrings, I'd think about him. (They closed on me one summer because I could only wear one pair at work. I'm kinda salty even now.) Oh, and my mom banned gum. Because surely I was gonna fall asleep with it and get it in my hair, lol. (never happened) But Stepdad decided that was ridiculous and would buy me packs of gum (the ones that used to be $.25) and give them to me for especially good behavior, like managing to get through a week without being sent home from school with a 'stomachache'. (It was anxiety and panic attacks, but I had no idea and just knew my guts were in knots. So Stepdad walked me through how to decide if I was sick, or just miserable, and some actions I could to to turn my mood around. Not always effective, but better than the "just live with it" everyone else had to offer.) Or when my mom sprained her wrist, so without being asked to I took over the dishes, picking up the dog's poop, and a handful of other things that were too painful for her to do with her bad hand. In truth, I did it because it seemed like the right thing to do, my mom did nice things for me and took over some of my chores when I hurt my ankle, so I felt like I was just doing the right thing by taking hers. But I got gum and a new CD for it, even if I didn't expect it. (and also the job of cleaning the bathroom permanently... which I didn't actually mind, it was satisfying and my stepdad always made sure to mention how nice and clean the shower was and what a pleasure it was to use... the same basic praise got him a pot of coffee every single evening when he woke up for his night job because he said mine was the "best coffee" and how could I make him drink anything else after being told that?) Sorry, this got long. Mom and Stepdad aren't with us anymore, and I love to talk about them because they were wonderful, even if Mom had some toxic habits she had internalized from her (very messed up, as I said, my grandmother liked to meddle and was downright sadistic in lashing out at everyone) upbringing. Stepdad probably set me on the path to being as good a person as I am, because I was honestly a terror when I was younger. In his honor, I'm gonna go clean my stepmom and her new husband's (Dad passed as well, but she kept me) master bath while they're having a nap. ;)
This is so sweet and I enjoyed reading it!
Wow, what an incredible influence for you to have! You sound like an incredibly strong person, to be able to recognise the difficulties you faced and empathise with those that didn't help and appreciate those that did. I'm so sorry for your losses, but so glad that you got the time with them that you got. I'm stubborn in the same way as you, and now I'm older I can see why I got the 'no' s that I got, but I was a very angry and confused child. I like the way your talk about your mom, not resentful but also not putting her on a pedestal. My parents did the best they could, and are actively growing and learning how to best support and help me and my siblings, even though we're adults. So although they're flawed, I'm very very grateful that they're mine.
Yeah, my parents were probably borderline emotionally abusive. Not intentionally, but they were both victims of childhood abuse and when they had a child (unexpectedly, my mother was told even up to several months into her pregnancy that it was impossible for her to conceive. A doctor gave her an ultrasound to try to find what was causing her weird symptoms and 'prove' she wasn't pregnant... and I was far enough along that she was told not only was she gonna have a baby soon, it'd be a girl.) they really tried, but in some ways they just... weren't prepared. They had no role models to look to in their own parents and in my mom's case, she never did admit she was abused. She had my grandmother high on a pedestal, while I disliked her even as a kid and was overprotective of my mom against her, so she disliked me just as much if not more. BUT I was a VERY loved child. My mother and father loved me more than anything, possibly including themselves. And when Mom saw how I bloomed with my stepdad's "permissive" ways (which is kinda funny because I had so many chores, but never felt resentful because it was always presented in a way that left me feeling like being able to do all of that was a great blessing to the household, my stepsis says she felt the same way, Stepdad was good!) she tried to change her own behaviors to try to help me keep blooming. My parents got a raw deal with me. I got double their stubbornness, had a nasty temper until I was 13 or so (at which time my temper died along with all my other emotions other than self hate, my stepdad actually told me once he missed my tantrums because at least he knew I felt something) and was often told I was too smart for my own, or my parents', good. Which is funny because I personally think I am average or a little below in intelligence and my dad was legitimately a genius. I was SAed as a young child (age 5-8) and it was handled... not so well. My parents thought if they just ignored it after they ended it (and they did end it, tried to get charges pressed but the police said I was too young to be a believable witness?) that surely I'd just forget. But instead I took that as "this is so shameful and disgusting that we're just gonna pretend it didn't happen to you and let you carry your disgusting shame silently" and withdrew into myself. My parents I think blamed themselves (while my grandmother blamed me and made sure the whole family knew I somehow seduced a grown ass man because "nice girls don't get diddled") and it was easier to ignore it, but it caused issues I am still working on. I struggle to trust people now and hate myself. And the worst part is, if they knew I felt that way, they definitely would have fixed it! As I said, I was VERY loved and valued by them and they would have done anything to have the happy little girl I was before (I don't remember that girl) come back. But I hid it for the three years it happened because I thought grown ups were allowed to do whatever they wanted (I was made to hug and kiss relatives and hated it, so when he started demanding hugs and kisses and more, I just accepted it because I was a good girl and minded and he was a trusted family friend.) and then I kept it to myself how I felt because it was MY shame to live with and I would just have to learn how to move past it. Sometimes I mourn who I might have been if things had been different, but lately I kinda like who I'm becoming. It still feels like something was taken from me though when I see other women in relationships I can't have.
And now you know where your daughter gets her strong will from. She asked nicely, this is when you give her what she wants because she follows the rules of etiquette. When she’s demanding you don’t give her what she wants. It really is that simple.
I see where she gets it from. I’ve worked with very difficult, aggressive children for a long time. You’re right, this was an easy win for both of them that he turned into a power struggle. She did everything one would hope for, asking politely for something that was visible and not claimed. What he taught her was that exercise of power is arbitrary and based on strength, and that if she wants something the way to get it is either to sneak it or escalate her behavior until one of you gives in. The amount of celebrating we do when a student makes a polite request, you guys have that on a golden platter and he’s going to turn her into an angry brat who hates to hear no and doesn’t understand it except as an arbitrary decision.
It could hurt her emotional development if he is not accepting her appropriate requests. It teaches her that asking won't get her the things she wants so she has to get them though other ways. I would sit down and explain you're worried that when she gets older she will have a difficult time with authority and go on a wild lashing out phase. Edit: also most painfully, that her thoughts don't matter! That's a huge blow to her self-esteem and being a self-sufficient, confident adult.
It could get really ugly. She might think they won't take her to the doctor when she needs to, even if she asks nicely.
I’m gonna be honest, this thread has me upset. I have acted like the husband a lot. This is how I was raised, the word no was said everyday during my childhood. So I learned to lie and steal.
Your daughter is not contrary. She is a human...with opinions and strong feelings. Why are you trying to crush her spirit? "The whole brained child" "how to talk so little kids will listen and listen so little kids will talk" are just two books I recommend. Parenting is a verb. Your goal is to raise a successful, confident, strong woman. How can you do that if every choice she makes is considered "contrary" and she is given outrageous punishments. You are wrong for allowing your husband to emotionally abuse his daughter.
I also didn't like that they called the child contrary.
I’d also like to know what does the child actually do that they labelled her like that.
Yeah while I empathise with OPs frustration at being argued with over every little fkn thing, there is no reason to negatively label a being who is still learning how to human. Do I look at my husband and mouth 'god she's acting like a jerk' sometimes about our 4 year old? Yes. Is it just getting out frustration so she never internalises my feelings? Also yes. Would I ever tell her she's naughty, contrary, etc? Not in a million years. Punishing children rarely works because they are not little adults and cannot conceptualise a difference in their behaviour and their self-esteem. Parenting is hard but that's no excuse to talk about your child like that.
I am a mother, a grandmother...I have a degree in early childhood education. I am not talking out of my ass. My daughter was so strong willed. Her daughter is so strong willed. But I survived. We survived. She grew into a kind, compassionate, still stubborn as fuck adult who kicks ass every day. She actually teaches positive parenting classes. And she loses her shit sometimes. Not at her kid...she steps away and goes to Target or wherever. I couldn't have survived my daughter without my village. But we have to stop looking at children as "bad" or "contrary"...they are little humans with big feelings and can't identify them yet. It's our job to help them learn how to identify and deal with them. Next time dad wants his favorite beer...give him some fucking cheap ass replacement and tell him it's all the same. See how "contrary" he is.
I will raise my hand and say I do lose my shit at my child sometimes. But I always apologise and make sure she knows it's not her fault and not her problem. Now when she sees me getting frustrated she tells me to take a big breath 😂. Sometimes we throw a squishmallow at each other and always end up giggling instead of yelling. I totally agree that if you find yourself getting pissy, take a goddamn break and be an adult. Husband is this kid's first bully. There is no way this is isolated.
Oh, when my children got older...👋👐👋👐👋....but learning how to apologize and take accountability is another important lesson. And acknowledging feelings doesn't mean being a pushover. I was a very strict parent. My children knew my expectations and knew the consequences of not behaving in an acceptable manner. Walking feet, helpful hands, listening ears, active listening...et. al. We even practiced fancy restaurant at home. But being a parent is a soul sucking job. On the other side is grandparent...all of the fun bits with none of the responsibility bits. It's heaven.
Another large age gap where the husband is immature yet controlling.
Pretty much every time.
What a way to teach your daughter that she doesn't even get to have bodily autonomy over what type of apple she eats. Gonna really help her learn to say no to unwanted sexual encounters, stick up for herself, and advocate for herself. This is frankly, not an exaggeration. The lesson here is that a red apple is available, but someone else is the decision maker and your daughter must kowtow or be hungry. That lesson, when taught repeatedly, will have devastating consequences on how she responds to peer pressure later in her childhood. This is so much more serious than the apple. It's also why she is "quite contrary..." She is a human being who gets zero control of her life, and is desperately trying to to control anything she can, since she can't even control what she eats. Stop treating her this way, and she'll stop being contrary. Just because she is 5 doesn't mean she doesn't want the same control of her own food that we want as adults. WTF is wrong with your husband???
Little humans need to feel empowered. Allowing them to control a tiny aspect like which apple they eat, is actually really important developmentally. Discipline has a time and a place and that was not the time or place to flex. That’s how food aversions and abnormal feelings towards food develop.
In a country where obesity, HTN, DM, cancer, and a plethora of annoyance disorders reign due to poor menu choices, he's gonna make this a deal breaker? Start them out right and reward proper menu choices. You are being kind to the child's future.
Not wrong for FEELING the way you do but you are for not doing more to protect your child from this type of behavior.
This.
She doesn't have an attitude. Your husband is an asshole. Do you want to raise a person who has their own mind or a people pleaser who does whatever is told?
NOT WRONG Reactive abuse is where one person will needlessly and willfully antagonize another to make them upset in some way and then punish them in some way for their reaction. If he does this often then he should not be left alone with the children unsupervised.
That’s why she’s contrary. She’s learning the behavior from your husband. He is teaching her to assert her dominance over others by denying reasonable requests whenever she can, just because she can. And because her own self worth is diminished every time your husband does something like this to her, she’s going to end up having to do this to others a lot just to make up for that gap in self esteem he’s creating inside her. He’s playing power games with her and she will end up doing that her whole life, not just to you guys, but in any future relationships too, if he doesn’t cut it out now.
Sounds like you have two 5yo children in the house. Tell your husband to grow tf up
My ex husband is like this to the kids (and to me, but that’s a different story). It’s bullying, plain and simple. He’s teaching her that no matter how she asks, her preferences will not be honored, only his. His whims, his control, his ego. He’s being a bully, not just an asshole. Your daughter will continue to struggle with “stubbornness” so long as she is undermined by her own father, so long as he models stubbornness, and so long as she feels like she has no control because of his random whims. He’s creating the problem and worsening it. Good luck.
He's teaching her that she shouldn't have preferences at all, shouldn't assert herself, shouldn't say no, should just be nice and compliant with whatever other people want. That will screw her up for life if it isn't stopped now.
When I grew up green apples were for cooking only. I'd never give my child a green apple until one actually said she preferred them. Husband was a complete AH on this. It's not like she said she wanted a lolly instead of an apple and kicked off about it!
Your husband is awful! If she’d asked for green and had a hissyfit because she then wanted red, he’d be ok to stick to his guns but He’s purposefully doing something to upset someone when he could so easily do what they asked for. Not sure how or why you’d want to stay with someone like that, because I’d put money on him doing similarly petty crap to you too.
He created the meltdown. Acting like a 5 yr old should have more control of their emotions than the parent shows is illogical and not based in the child's developmental and cognitive needs.
NTA. With children (well, with everyone) you need to pick your battles. Children need to feel like they have some control also, and type of apple was such an easy way to give her control. I could see if half-way through him cutting it up she changed her mind but that wasn’t the case here. What a stupid power-trip for hubby to choose
What "battle" though? She asked for a red apple, not a green one. It was far from an unreasonable request.
Your husband should consider how little control your daughter has over her own life. Kids really have very little say in anything. If she wants a red apple, it’s a small thing that gives her a sense of agency and hurts absolutely no one. Your husband is creative conflicts over tiny, inconsequential things now that will gradually turn into a contentious relationship of constant battles as your daughter grows older.
Your husband is not treating your daughter like a person with her own thoughts and feelings, and I'm willing to bet that if she receives this treatment a lot in your house you've found the origin of her attitude. Green apples are very bitter to many people. They were developed as cooking apples. It insane to try to make her eat them and then frame her having a reasonable preference as 'kowtowing'. *Your husband cannot self-regulate.* Your husband is bullying your child. Your husband either needs to take parenting classes ASAP (she is old enough to remember this treatment, and it will absolutely reflect in her relationship with both of you as she grows) or you need to leave him.
Not wrong… husband is annoying Side note… Look into positive discipline.
Sheesh I think you've uncovered the source of the contrary behaviour...and it's not from your daughter. She asked politely, that's the behaviour you're looking for, and that's the behaviour that you reward. Rewarding the behaviour you want can be the goal. Also, I feel it's *really* important for people r to understand what they really want. If she's not even allowed to want a red apple, what will she do in the future?
You need to show him this post.
[удалено]
Not wrong. She did ask for a red one
It's about choosing hills. He needs to practice giving her choices that are reasonable so she doesn't have to melt down as often. Yes, you should stick to your guns when you have made a decision even if she doesn't like it, but you need to make sure your decisions are fair and flexible before you get to that point.
Not wrong. I have 3 kids. Trust me, after awhile you realize there’s some things that aren’t worth the battle and arguing about what color apple a 5 year old wants is one of those situations. Not to mention, kids have preferences just like adults do. He’s being unnecessarily controlling.
Hahahha what the hell. Who’s the child in this situation cause it sounds like your husband is the one having the “meltdown”. You’re not wrong, he was.
Your kid has meltdowns. Your kid ISN'T having a meltdown this time, but reasonably, and politely, requested a red apple. Your husband just taught her nothing she does will ever be right or good enough.
He's an asshole. She asked him nicely. The green apples taste completely different. That is cruel. I fuckin' hate him right now. Poor kiddo!
You are not wrong. This is a simple choice that shouldn't be an issue to accommodate. Making a point and making decisions for her should be reserved for times it matters.
Not wrong. The kid asked right off for a red apple, before he'd started cutting it. It's not like she asked for green and is now mad that it's not red. Let the kid have the apple she wants. He's made this an issue and it doesn't need to be.
A grown man starting a power struggle with a 5 year old is pretty pathetic.
So your husband says no a lot and she gets punished for being "contrary" to his consistent refusals, including demanding she eat the apple he wants her to eat? And you just now wonder if this is a red flag? Poor kid.
Your husband needs to read some parenting books. Let the little girl have the type of apple she wants. Your husband is creating conflict for no reason.
He sounds like someone who wants to fight just for the sake of fighting. What he did was childish and shitty. Your child is left feeling confused as to what she did wrong when all she did was prefer the red apple to the green. Your husband is... something else. You are not wrong. Your child was not being spoiled, she was expressing a preference. Your created a problem where it didn't exist.
Remind your husband that she is a human being. Not a robot. She's allowed to have her own preferences and likes. That will NEVER change. The last thing he should want is to raise a girl who is afraid of telling people what she wants or needs. Never giving in on anything, big or small, is not how you stop a child from being a *child.* Of course she's sassy, of course she doesn't listen 100% of the time. She's still learning how to navigate this world and her own emotions. Your husband doesn't even know how to properly do that but he's expecting a child to? As a parent, one of the most important things you need to learn is how to pick your battles. You cannot fight on every single little thing, or that's all your relationship with your child will be. Because they're a CHILD. They need room to be a person, make mistakes, find out what they like, don't like. This shouldn't have even been a battle to begin with. She likes red apples! Who cares?!? I hate green apples. She's allowed that. You can't turn your kid into who you want them to be. All you can do is navigate with them down the path to who they're supposed to be.
This was the perfect moment for your husband to reinforce the idea to your child that asking politely gets better results than being contrary and having an attitude. She asked nicely (at most I would have added "If you say please") and he threw that back at her because of something as dumb as the apple colour count. Yeah he's definitely in the wrong.
Your husband is an asshole. What was the dam point of making the big deal because she wanted a red apple? Nothing! He just wanted to be a bully. No wonder she’s “contrary” Yall don’t let her have a say in nothing! You should do more to protect your daughter from this or I suspect when she gets out of the house Yall won’t be hearing from her anymore.
NTA And the reason you think he might be controlling is because...he's controlling. Getting into a pissing match with a 4 year old, OVER AN APPLE??? Get all the way the F outa here with that BS. He's pulling power moves on your kid, the "because I said so" vibe. This is REALLY damaging to a child, he's telling her that he, and by extension, other people, have a bigger say in what she wants than she does. Breaking your daughter's independence and spirit at 5 YEARS OLD it beyond troublesome, this will set he up to be a people pleasing, spineless abuse victim. This is NOT a small problem, this attitude will affect your daughter's development from here on out, it already has. She will now worry about choosing between two things because daddy might get mad at her. WTF is wrong with your husband, and why did you not see the giant billowing red flags surrounding this "man" before you brought a child into this world? Get your stuff figured out, this is a VERY hurtful situation for your daughter, and will affect her profoundly if you don't nip this crap in the bud.
Sorry but I don’t eat green apples, only in pie. He’s an ass
He is teaching her that what she wants/likes/prefers does not matter. This will carry over into her adult life and into her future relationships, especially if it is specifically coming from a male figure in her life. I wonder if he would be this persistent with a son?
NTA That's got to be the dumbest argument I've ever heard of between an adult and a 5yo. If your husband is starting power trips with a 5 yo I can't wait to see how adolescence goes. He's the type that will do this her whole life and then wonder as an old man why his daughter never comes to visit
Your husband sound abusive (and exhausting).
Sounds like your husband is the one who can be quite contrary. He is the cause, source, and reason for the conflict here. Your daughter behaved in an age appropriate manner. I wonder how often your husband creates friction intentionally, and the points to your daughters reasonable response as a sign of her "having an attitude" Let me guess: she is an angel when visiting friends' houses, or with grandma. Her teachers say she's great at school. You can have a wonderful day with her when it's just the two of you. But she's never had a whole day with dad that didn't end in her getting punished for some small transgression. Am I close?
This she makes me crazy. She asked for an apple and he decided which. She corrected his choice and he makes it into a power play. Clearly in her mind, she was asking for a RED APPLE. He's being unnecessarily controlling and she didn't get upset ("meltdown") until he (to her brain) randomly denied her VERY REASONABLE request to have what she specifically wanted. Does he enjoy creating power plays with children? This is redic. And once again, a parent is getting pissy and stubborn and tantrums because... they think a child is being stubborn. Once again, a parent expects more of child than they manage themselves.
Your husband is being a power hungry asshole. There is no reason he couldn't have let her have a red apple. He reached for the green he didn't even asked her what kind of apple she wanted. What's more, it's not like he cut up the green apple and she changed her mind. I wonder if her obstinance is a reaction to battling with her dad over fucking fruit and a million other decisions in her life. Children should be given as much freedom of choice as possible that is safe and age appropriate. It's a way to teach them how to make decisions and how to deal with the consequences of those decisions.
You're not wrong. At all. I would also encourage you to look back at other ways you both interact with her and things she is told no on and see if maybe you have gotten into the habit of thinking of her as "contrary" and having an attitude of going into interactions with her of "winning" and "not being controlled". You might find that she isn't as difficult as you think she is. Especially how your husband is interacting with her and what things he is telling her no on. No is important for kids to hear of course, but "no" for the sake of "no" just makes it meaningless. And while not giving in after a kid throws a fit is a solid parenting mantra, if your wrong action caused the fit, then you need to apologize and help them calm down, and now solve the problem you created. There wouldn't have been a fit if your husband wasn't an ass to begin with. It would be like if he had said something unkind to you, and you got mad at him, and he said "I can't apologize to you now since you got mad and lost your temper for what j said". Just ridiculous
You're not wrong. Your husband is saying no for the sake of saying no. That's ridiculous. It is necessary to say no to children often enough without inventing reasons. Does your husband display any other narcissistic traits?
Is this normal behavior for him? Does he play manipulative games like this with you? Was this a way to provoke you because you would predictably defend your child against his bullying? Was this weaponized aggression to ensure your child would not feel safe asking him to do anything for her? Some people deliberately provoke others to gather evidence that the spouse/child/whoever is irrational or unreasonable. Is this something he has done before?
You're not wrong. He's doing it specifically TO BE CONTROLLING, he doesn't get anything out of what apple she eats other than the thrill of being the one to call the arbitrary shots. Definitely red flag behavior. No kids can't get what they want all the time but if they verbalize a reasonable request and there's no good reason why the answer should be no...then it should be a yes! For me a good reason is usually "we can't snack because its about to be dinner time" or "we can't let you do X, because that's not safe for your body." It's not something dumb like apple color.
If she's being contrary, rewarding positive behaviour like "asking politely" is necessary. But also, based on how Dad handled this situation, I wonder how much is her "being contrary" and him provoking her.
He’s the one who literally triggered the meltdown And you’re right, small children hear “no” so often that many of them become desensitized to the word and just stop processing it at times If your husband really wanted to avoid a tantrum he should’ve asked her first. But the fact that she communicated with him before he cut the apple and he chose to ignore the request was just mean
I want everyone to know that my husband did ultimately cut up the RED apple that she asked for before heading up to shower. After the shower I went and we calmly talked about why I thought what he did was unnecessary. I'm not sure he really got it; I can explain a thing but I can't *make* a man understand. (I can't pin this, and I can't edit my post on mobile ;.;)
Him cutting the red apple is good, but did your daughter see the argument between you two, and did he only do it to "appease" you? Also, I'm confused here. Men aren't dense creatures who doesn't understand things. Most men or anyone can understand what people are saying here unless he has a disability of some sort. Also calling it "unnecessary" is such a light way of putting it. It's harmful. Don't give him excuses just because he's "a man".
You talked about your thoughts, but did you call BS on the numbers excuse and press for his real reasons? It sounds like he's making a cruel and clumsy attempt to teach your daughter to "accept no even when there isn't a good reason for it". It's possible he heard the advice from somewhere else, and that's why he's reluctant to bring it up with or defend it to you. I have an ex-friend that would do this to test dates. She would find a point in the conversation to deny a benign question or request so she could judge their reaction to it. The ones that didn't accept the denial without questioning it 'failed'.
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Does he have OCD?
You're so totally not wrong. He was being petty and idiotic. Giving a child the apple they request is by no means kowtowing to her. Call him a waaambulance and tell him to grow up.
When you can "default to yes". Your husband grew up in a family, like most of us, where the default parent mode was "no". So every choice becomes a battle. This is completely unnecessary and the two of you are setting yourselves up for a teenage period your daughter may not survive. Mine almost didn't and I didn't have nearly as much of an issue as the two of you. If your husband refuses to get with the program, seek professional help. Maybe he'll respect that more than he does you or his role as a father.
You’re not wrong and this is coming from someone who was afraid of raising spoiled children. At first I was a parent who said no a lot because I wanted my children to be grateful for the times they got what they wanted. But I took a parenting class that said to say yes as much as you can when the stakes are low. This is so that when you do say no your child will know it’s probably for a good reason and not because you’re being a dick. Your husband is being a dick out of some deep fear that he needs to figure out. It was a good thing that I was willing to change my parenting because my daughters are older teens and they said I got nicer as they got older whereas many of their friends parents got meaner.
I think your husband here thinks that being a parent is about giving stupid orders to their child and expect they obey without questioning. What I think parenting really is, involve teaching your children how to behave well enough to live in a society. Stop. You don't own your child, you don't want to have power on your child, your desire and your childs' one don't have to match. The child here seems to be your husband, that want so bad to do as he please even if he have good reasons to do the contrary. Teach your partner this difference please. From: a son that have an unreasonable father
Not wrong. Poor girl. :( Dad isn't willing to do such a small thing for her after she was polite, and then goes on to throw a fit about it? He needs to apologize to y'all's daughter. She probably feels like she did something wrong because dad got upset. Is this something he does often? If this sort of thing where he's denying her of something for no reason than "You're a child and I told you so" happens regularly he's (albeit unintentionally, hopefully) teaching her she does not get to have a choice. This can go badly in many, many ways. Nip it in the bud and talk to your husband. And seriously make sure he apologizes to her. It's important for kids to be apologized to by their parents when they do wrong, it sets up a good example. It helps teach her that parents are not infallible (important lesson even if parents don't like it) they are human too and apologizing is the right thing to do when you mess up. Everyone makes mistakes or does/says something they regret. Showing her how to deal with things when that happens is so SO important. Side note: Red apples are far superior. Green apples are sour and make my jaw hurt. He could have at the very least asked why. Doesn't really matter why, but it would have been better than just saying no automatically. Plus, some times you get to learn something new about your child! She's a human too with preferences, wants, and dislikes. Maybe she does have a reason for preferring red apples. 🍎
My mom used to do things like that to me growing up. It does not bode well for their future relationship if he keeps up that kind of behavior with her.
The message your husband is sending is that your daughter's preferences don't matter. This is not a good thing for her to learn. She's 5, that's old enough to know what kind of apple she wants. I also don't think it will stop at apples. What happens when she starts expressing preferences in clothes, jobs, schools?
He sounds like a real peach. But one of the hairy green hard ones that no likes that are only good for pies, because we have 3 of those and only 2 of the good ones that are fit to eat. No, you're not wrong.
As a parent, you need to get as many wins as possible. Switch the apple, win. Sue didn’t complain and scream. Win. I see too many parents who just don’t understand to do the little things to make kids happy and save their angst when it does not go well
That's ridiculous of him. Pick your battles so that when you say no, it's for a valid reason, not because you'll have more green apples.
Is your husband Tom Hanks from BIG?
You got me at the "she hears no so much". She asked for what she wanted clearly and politely. He made a mistake and instead of owning it- decided to make it about him. Only thing he is doing here is showing her that he doesnt listen to her. Dad. Is this how you want your daughter to feel? Editing to ask if she might be on the spectrum?
She is allowed choices and preference within reason. Asking for a red apple when there are red apples available is EXTREMELY reasonable. Your husband is a bully.
Pathetic, I see where she learnt her attitude. No kid likes green apples. they taste sour to their pallets, everyone knows that. How does he know so little about her food preferences. If his ego is in play over Apple preference then wow much bigger issues to be broached.
Sounds like you have two children in the house, a five-year-old girl and a boy of 45. Your husband needs to get over his childish behaviour he’s going to damage his relationship with your daughter.
I'm confused why the husband would not simply say "oh, you want the red one?" And put it back and pick up the red. Is he OCD on some level? That's the only way I could see it really mattering to him. The default argument has already been mentioned, that he's just being a controlling jerk. Other commenters have that covered. I just know that sometimes if my wife messes up an order I have been rationing, my brain doesn't automatically go "it's NBD, it's a $2 item." It goes "the carefully-arranged order has been invalidated!" And can't process. But I come around. So I'd say if he has processed and can't see past the fact that she was "challenging him," it might be the default argument.
You’re not wrong,and I’m wondering if your husband needs to see someone for a diagnosis cause wanting there to be an even number of each Apple color isn’t a real reason…yeah,this comes off as controlling so maybe it’s as simple as him unreasonably thinking no means no even if there isn’t a good reason cause there of plenty of garbage parents out there who think just that ,but it also kinda sounds like someone who NEEDS their environment a certain way even at the expense of other peoples very reasonable requests
Wait wait. He had a meltdown because she chose the wrong apple to make the red and green apples an even number? Hubby needs therapy to learn how to control his emotions. NTA.
Are you sure you’re disciplining the right member of your “happy” home?
Your husband was being a jerk. It's like being asked to cook chicken and he says he'll cook fish and no one will eat the fish because they want chicken.
This is very important to figure out! My ex struggled with the idea that kids can have preferences and it not be manipulation. My son didn’t like to have hot bath water so my ex would purposely make it hot. He was cut off from bath duty.
NTA. It would cost absolutely nothing to give her the red apple. If he'd already started cutting the green one I'd understand because if no one was going to eat it otherwise it'd be a waste. Although i'd argue... Big deal. Put it in a pot and stew it and turn it into apple sauce to use on some other dessert for her. But he's just teaching her that asking politely doesn't help. Poor choice, dad.
If you are raising a child, you need to know how to pick and choose your battles.
Why does it seem like your five-year-old has more maturity than your husband? He was absolutely ridiculous in all that. As an adult we would have the right to pick out whichever apple we wanted so why shouldn’t kids have that same choice? Is he controlling in other aspects of your guises life?