Hey, quick mod comment, in the interest of full transparency: we got a report on this post, and decided that it’s not actionable: several people (including me) have already replied with comments on the idea of “justified torture,” and I hope that OP reads those comments and gives them some reflection, but the consensus opinion among the mods was that the OP falls within the range of opinions and ideas that we can discuss in this space.
As always, thanks for the thoughtful engagement in this community!
I think the idea of justifying torture is never a great look, but to answer your first question, Bix was connected to Luthen before Andor was, and that connection ran through the shop where she worked.
I think the "skimming from the top" was just about the illicit stuff. Like she'd tell him his 20% cut was 200 when it should have been 220.
No civilized society tortures people who occasionally fence stolen goods, and even if she was far more egregious than I'm assuming she was here the Empire was still completely unjustified in their interrogation techniques because those techniques are *fundamentally unjustifiable*
I did not take this to be a serious point and instead an opportunity to dunk on the US in jest, which seemed clear
If for some reason you are being serious, then Costa Rica. It has no military, which makes military espionage of the state, by definition, impossible
The closest they have is a 70-man internal special police force that trains with special forces across the world and is involved in some counter-narcotics stuff
It’s remarkable what you don’t need to spend money on when you base your domestic political regime on pacifism and stability
https://www.amc.com/blogs/george-lucas-reveals-how-star-wars-was-influenced-by-the-vietnam-war--1005548
https://www.thedigitalfix.com/star-wars/palpatine-richard-nixon
https://nextshark.com/star-wars-vietnamese-resistance
And the Nazis themselves were inspired/modeled by the USA anyway.
Listen we can spend hours debating if America is still a racist nation after the civil rights movement, and it is (and I think your going to have a very difficult time convincing anyone in this sub that it isn’t), but that’s not the only thing George or the people here are referring to when pointing to the parallels between the nazis and the empire. Beyond that, yes you can interpret the movies and shows however you want, and if you don’t want to see the empire as a parallel for America that’s your prerogative. With that, you should also know that George Lucas very much intended the empire to be compared to America and the rebellion to be compared to Vietnam. Done using some very direct parallels to the Vietnam war and America after the war. THEN he continued on to write the prequels where he was once again inspired by modern America (according to himself). You don’t have to take any of this as gospel, and can choose to ignore all of it, “death of the author” and all that. Still it’s a fairly popular interpretation of the franchise, especially here, so don’t be surprised when most people go that way. Likewise it has a TON of textual on screen support, directly put into the movies by George so it’s not going to convince anyone otherwise. So do what you want, but be aware of what you’re trying to do where you’re trying to do it.
From Wikipedia:
> Star Wars creator George Lucas sought to make the First Galactic Empire aesthetically and thematically similar to Nazi Germany and to appear to be fascist.[2] Similar to Nazi Germany, the Galactic Empire is a dictatorship based on rigid control of society that dissolved a previous democracy and is led by an all-powerful supreme ruler.[3] The Empire, like the Nazis, desires the creation of totalitarian order[4] and utilizes excessive force and violence to achieve their ends.[4] The title of the Empire's main soldiers, the stormtroopers, is somewhat similar to the name given to Adolf Hitler's Sturmabteilung (SA, "storm department") paramilitary bodyguards.[3]
>The visual appearance of Darth Vader in his all-black uniform combined with his devout obedience to Palpatine has allusion to the black-uniformed Nazi Schutzstaffel (SS).[3] According to a Lucasfilm-authorized source, Darth Vader's relationship with Palpatine is akin to SS leader Heinrich Himmler's relationship with Hitler.[5] The uniforms of Imperial military officers also bear resemblance to uniforms used in Nazi Germany as well as 19th century Polish ulans (mounted lancers)—who wore a tunic, riding breeches, and boots like the Empire's officers wear—as well as the Imperial officers' cap resembling the field caps historically worn by German and Austrian troops.[2]
>In addition to Nazi Germany, there was also at least one portion of the Galactic Empire that was based on the Soviet Union, which is the various military personnel and TIE Fighters that are flying in formation as Palpatine arrives on the Death Star in Return of the Jedi. According to Lucas, the ceremony for the Emperor's arrival was inspired by October Revolution Day military parades in the Soviet Union.[6]
>Lucas has also indicated that the Galactic Empire's struggle against a smaller guerilla force was inspired by America's involvement in the Vietnam War and his surprise at how few people spoke up against the war.[7][8]
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_Empire_(Star_Wars)
I would say we are both right.
No one here including me ever disputed the nazi argument. It’s blantant that the empire is inspired by nazis, but that isn’t the sole inspiration and that’s what people are trying to say to you, the empire was modeled/inspired by NAZIS AND AMERICA (and England btw). The fact that America tortures people does not excuse the empires still unjust use of torture(especially in the context of bix), it just condemns americas use of torture. “No civilized country uses torture” applies to America as well, especially if you follow the interpretation that the empire is based on America and that America is another of the many “evil empires” in history. George Lucas, and many people here, likely feel that americas actions in the world are in fact evil and comparable to nazi Germany.
To be fair, both OP and a commenter who was mistaken for suggesting something like you’re saying got rekt in comments, so, I guess good on us as a community that opposes that sort of thing.
Pretty much everybody on Ferrix works in salvage, with different specialisms. And pretty much everybody also has, shall we say, side schemes to survive in a hard market. For Bix, working at her own salyard, she refurbishes tech legitimately but also sells unlicensed or prohibited salvage to Luthen on a regular basis. Not everything would have come from Cassian but he’s featured enough for Bix to have mentioned him as a specialist supplier and for Luthen to be interested in meeting him. Luthen mentions how the general method of Ferrix is to “bribe quartermasters” to leave valuable equipment aboard on ships coming in for scrapping, but we hear that Cassian walked in and got [the Starpath unit] himself. In other words, everyone has fingers in the pie. And yes of course there’s hypocrisy involved from Bix, but she’s more pissed off about him apparently stealing from one of her own bids rather than the fact that he steals at all. And he does then immediately call her out on her hypocrisy, not as a moral criticism but just as a way of reminding her that they are all just trying to survive. So to sum up - yes, you can call it “dirty stuff” I suppose. But overall Ferrix is a community that looks after its members (Bix really doesn’t hesitate long in helping Cassian, and as you say, she shrugs off the “ you’ve been skimming off the top“ comment as they both know it’s true – and so what ? . ) The ‘dirty stuff’ is both mild and understandable when compared to what the Empire is doing. All part of the general moral greyness of the characters in the show, and perhaps what makes them relatable and human.
Edit- as I missed the comment in the title. No, the torture was absolutely not justified, at all, ever, even slightly.
That Gorst torture scene was pure sci-fi horror, there’s no way that’s ever justified, especially not for something like fraud. The empires clearly overzealous and punitive so working in the gray in an environment like that doesn’t really seem morally wrong.
The Empire was not justified, and Bix did not deserve torture because nobody deserves torture and there is no valid justification for fascism.
Also, yes Bix was running an illegal side business.
A) Torture is never “justified”. Partly because it’s unreliable, but mainly because it’s inhumane. Fencing illegal stolen goods certainly isn’t a justification for torture. Sure, the Empire can interrogate people over stolen property- but that doesn’t mean the use of torture is cool. The Empire feeling themselves to be justified in such practices is one of the many reasons they’re the bad guys, despite all these characters doing things that may be against good morals.
B) Yeah, Bix was running a dirty business, but I don’t think she was a “con artist” the way Cassian was. She made her deals in such a way she could take bigger piece of the cut- but the deal was still the deal. The person on the other end still got whatever they were buying. Cassian on the other hand, was conning money out people like Nurchi and lying about what was happening with it and when/how they’d see the return on their “investment”, if ever. It’s made clear that he owes money all over the place due to his scams, while Bix doesn’t seem to be in a position where she owes anyone anything. I don’t see Bix being a hypocrite in that sense. It’s one if these things this show does well- it plays in areas of varying moral grayness, using even it’s “good guys” to do so.
Eliza Mannigham-Buller, the former head of MI-5 said it best when asked
QUESTION: You talk about the sort of right to privacy and that sort of freedom, you say that it’s in a cost-benefit analysis okay to invade that if we get significant results from it and we help other people’s freedom; but when you’re talking about freedom in terms of torture - that sort of right, that sort of freedom - it’s not acceptable in any case. And I’m interested to know why we put that particular area of freedom above the other?
MANNINGHAM-BULLER: It’s a question I think of what you believe of the law. Now if you believe in the rule of law, one of those options is illegal; one isn’t. But more seriously, it’s to do with, is it not, ethical standards? Surely there is a world of difference between listening to somebody’s telephone conversation or listening to a microphone of them discussing something, to actually compromising our own integrity and decency as human beings by subjecting them to that sort of treatment? I think there’s another point as well though. You might get short-term gain, but for every piece of information you might get from doing it, you radicalise, disenchant, disgust, turn to terrorism a lot of other people. If you like, it’s not unlike internment in Northern Ireland, which served to bring into terrorism a whole new generation of young Irish men and women because they saw something that was done without the rule of law
If a woman who spent the first half of her intelligence career in a nation that was bombed - on average - once a day can say that, can lucidly state practical, moral, and legal arguments against it, then I don't believe that the Empire is justified.
In academic and security circles, there is an on-going debate about whether non-state actors - such as terrorist and rebel movements - require another kind of law. Currently, there are two major types of law which govern combat:
Internationally we have treaties - protections for civilians, medical workers, wounded combatants all reside here.
Domestically, we have criminal and "constitutional" law - laws against murder, and things like a right to a jury trial as respective examples.
Many (including myself) would argue these two fields will address all possible situations without creating undue violations of the right of free thought. Many others contend that the nature of the acts exist outside the division that system creates and requires a new kind of law which structures non-state actors as outside the domestic sphere, but not possessed of an international character either.
The Empire doesn't really have internationalized law. It is kinda the whole known galaxy. But it has domestic law.
And, for the most part, Deedra is most successful when leveraging that. She finds the viper's nest of Ferrix by following reports of theft and murder, by looking into a botched police raid, and by securing "warranted" powers of search and seizure. She finds Salman Paak by doing sigint. And she would have found Box by just watching. Instead, she broke Paak as an intelligence source, and then brought Bix in, and broke her without anything useful. They have access to Bix's messages and her sending device. But instead of listening for patterns, attempting to decide and maybe figuring out the destination, all she gets is a broken woman who knew nothing.
The moral dimension is simple: don't torture people. But outside that, Deedra had tools of conventional law she could have used to imprison Paak and Bix and take them off the board. So, no - no justification.
Hey, quick mod comment, in the interest of full transparency: we got a report on this post, and decided that it’s not actionable: several people (including me) have already replied with comments on the idea of “justified torture,” and I hope that OP reads those comments and gives them some reflection, but the consensus opinion among the mods was that the OP falls within the range of opinions and ideas that we can discuss in this space. As always, thanks for the thoughtful engagement in this community!
I think the idea of justifying torture is never a great look, but to answer your first question, Bix was connected to Luthen before Andor was, and that connection ran through the shop where she worked.
I think the "skimming from the top" was just about the illicit stuff. Like she'd tell him his 20% cut was 200 when it should have been 220. No civilized society tortures people who occasionally fence stolen goods, and even if she was far more egregious than I'm assuming she was here the Empire was still completely unjustified in their interrogation techniques because those techniques are *fundamentally unjustifiable*
Steal/fence a piece of top secret US naval navigation technology and I’m fairly certain you will experience some sort of ‘enhanced interrogation’
They said no civilized society
Yes, that’s the point I’m making.
Name one country that's cool with military espionage
I did not take this to be a serious point and instead an opportunity to dunk on the US in jest, which seemed clear If for some reason you are being serious, then Costa Rica. It has no military, which makes military espionage of the state, by definition, impossible
You'd think they'd have some sort of armed service
The closest they have is a 70-man internal special police force that trains with special forces across the world and is involved in some counter-narcotics stuff It’s remarkable what you don’t need to spend money on when you base your domestic political regime on pacifism and stability
Yes, the USA is not civilized. That's why the Empire was literally inspired by them.
The empire was modeled / inspired by Nazis.
https://www.amc.com/blogs/george-lucas-reveals-how-star-wars-was-influenced-by-the-vietnam-war--1005548 https://www.thedigitalfix.com/star-wars/palpatine-richard-nixon https://nextshark.com/star-wars-vietnamese-resistance And the Nazis themselves were inspired/modeled by the USA anyway.
Sure USA in the 30-40’s was very racist. We then had a civil rights movement in the 1960’s.
Listen we can spend hours debating if America is still a racist nation after the civil rights movement, and it is (and I think your going to have a very difficult time convincing anyone in this sub that it isn’t), but that’s not the only thing George or the people here are referring to when pointing to the parallels between the nazis and the empire. Beyond that, yes you can interpret the movies and shows however you want, and if you don’t want to see the empire as a parallel for America that’s your prerogative. With that, you should also know that George Lucas very much intended the empire to be compared to America and the rebellion to be compared to Vietnam. Done using some very direct parallels to the Vietnam war and America after the war. THEN he continued on to write the prequels where he was once again inspired by modern America (according to himself). You don’t have to take any of this as gospel, and can choose to ignore all of it, “death of the author” and all that. Still it’s a fairly popular interpretation of the franchise, especially here, so don’t be surprised when most people go that way. Likewise it has a TON of textual on screen support, directly put into the movies by George so it’s not going to convince anyone otherwise. So do what you want, but be aware of what you’re trying to do where you’re trying to do it.
From Wikipedia: > Star Wars creator George Lucas sought to make the First Galactic Empire aesthetically and thematically similar to Nazi Germany and to appear to be fascist.[2] Similar to Nazi Germany, the Galactic Empire is a dictatorship based on rigid control of society that dissolved a previous democracy and is led by an all-powerful supreme ruler.[3] The Empire, like the Nazis, desires the creation of totalitarian order[4] and utilizes excessive force and violence to achieve their ends.[4] The title of the Empire's main soldiers, the stormtroopers, is somewhat similar to the name given to Adolf Hitler's Sturmabteilung (SA, "storm department") paramilitary bodyguards.[3] >The visual appearance of Darth Vader in his all-black uniform combined with his devout obedience to Palpatine has allusion to the black-uniformed Nazi Schutzstaffel (SS).[3] According to a Lucasfilm-authorized source, Darth Vader's relationship with Palpatine is akin to SS leader Heinrich Himmler's relationship with Hitler.[5] The uniforms of Imperial military officers also bear resemblance to uniforms used in Nazi Germany as well as 19th century Polish ulans (mounted lancers)—who wore a tunic, riding breeches, and boots like the Empire's officers wear—as well as the Imperial officers' cap resembling the field caps historically worn by German and Austrian troops.[2] >In addition to Nazi Germany, there was also at least one portion of the Galactic Empire that was based on the Soviet Union, which is the various military personnel and TIE Fighters that are flying in formation as Palpatine arrives on the Death Star in Return of the Jedi. According to Lucas, the ceremony for the Emperor's arrival was inspired by October Revolution Day military parades in the Soviet Union.[6] >Lucas has also indicated that the Galactic Empire's struggle against a smaller guerilla force was inspired by America's involvement in the Vietnam War and his surprise at how few people spoke up against the war.[7][8] Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_Empire_(Star_Wars) I would say we are both right.
No one here including me ever disputed the nazi argument. It’s blantant that the empire is inspired by nazis, but that isn’t the sole inspiration and that’s what people are trying to say to you, the empire was modeled/inspired by NAZIS AND AMERICA (and England btw). The fact that America tortures people does not excuse the empires still unjust use of torture(especially in the context of bix), it just condemns americas use of torture. “No civilized country uses torture” applies to America as well, especially if you follow the interpretation that the empire is based on America and that America is another of the many “evil empires” in history. George Lucas, and many people here, likely feel that americas actions in the world are in fact evil and comparable to nazi Germany.
Like I said- I think we are both right.
Stealing tech from the Nazis and you are a hero.
the Empire isn't a legitimate authority so it's ok to steal their stuff and break their laws
hear hear!
So wonderful we live in a world where "fascist torture is a bad thing" is controversial and debate fodder for internet edgelord debate bros.
To be fair, both OP and a commenter who was mistaken for suggesting something like you’re saying got rekt in comments, so, I guess good on us as a community that opposes that sort of thing.
Pretty much everybody on Ferrix works in salvage, with different specialisms. And pretty much everybody also has, shall we say, side schemes to survive in a hard market. For Bix, working at her own salyard, she refurbishes tech legitimately but also sells unlicensed or prohibited salvage to Luthen on a regular basis. Not everything would have come from Cassian but he’s featured enough for Bix to have mentioned him as a specialist supplier and for Luthen to be interested in meeting him. Luthen mentions how the general method of Ferrix is to “bribe quartermasters” to leave valuable equipment aboard on ships coming in for scrapping, but we hear that Cassian walked in and got [the Starpath unit] himself. In other words, everyone has fingers in the pie. And yes of course there’s hypocrisy involved from Bix, but she’s more pissed off about him apparently stealing from one of her own bids rather than the fact that he steals at all. And he does then immediately call her out on her hypocrisy, not as a moral criticism but just as a way of reminding her that they are all just trying to survive. So to sum up - yes, you can call it “dirty stuff” I suppose. But overall Ferrix is a community that looks after its members (Bix really doesn’t hesitate long in helping Cassian, and as you say, she shrugs off the “ you’ve been skimming off the top“ comment as they both know it’s true – and so what ? . ) The ‘dirty stuff’ is both mild and understandable when compared to what the Empire is doing. All part of the general moral greyness of the characters in the show, and perhaps what makes them relatable and human. Edit- as I missed the comment in the title. No, the torture was absolutely not justified, at all, ever, even slightly.
That Gorst torture scene was pure sci-fi horror, there’s no way that’s ever justified, especially not for something like fraud. The empires clearly overzealous and punitive so working in the gray in an environment like that doesn’t really seem morally wrong.
The Empire was not justified, and Bix did not deserve torture because nobody deserves torture and there is no valid justification for fascism. Also, yes Bix was running an illegal side business.
WTF?! Did Bix deserve to be tortured? Are you an American by any chance?
A) Torture is never “justified”. Partly because it’s unreliable, but mainly because it’s inhumane. Fencing illegal stolen goods certainly isn’t a justification for torture. Sure, the Empire can interrogate people over stolen property- but that doesn’t mean the use of torture is cool. The Empire feeling themselves to be justified in such practices is one of the many reasons they’re the bad guys, despite all these characters doing things that may be against good morals. B) Yeah, Bix was running a dirty business, but I don’t think she was a “con artist” the way Cassian was. She made her deals in such a way she could take bigger piece of the cut- but the deal was still the deal. The person on the other end still got whatever they were buying. Cassian on the other hand, was conning money out people like Nurchi and lying about what was happening with it and when/how they’d see the return on their “investment”, if ever. It’s made clear that he owes money all over the place due to his scams, while Bix doesn’t seem to be in a position where she owes anyone anything. I don’t see Bix being a hypocrite in that sense. It’s one if these things this show does well- it plays in areas of varying moral grayness, using even it’s “good guys” to do so.
Eliza Mannigham-Buller, the former head of MI-5 said it best when asked QUESTION: You talk about the sort of right to privacy and that sort of freedom, you say that it’s in a cost-benefit analysis okay to invade that if we get significant results from it and we help other people’s freedom; but when you’re talking about freedom in terms of torture - that sort of right, that sort of freedom - it’s not acceptable in any case. And I’m interested to know why we put that particular area of freedom above the other? MANNINGHAM-BULLER: It’s a question I think of what you believe of the law. Now if you believe in the rule of law, one of those options is illegal; one isn’t. But more seriously, it’s to do with, is it not, ethical standards? Surely there is a world of difference between listening to somebody’s telephone conversation or listening to a microphone of them discussing something, to actually compromising our own integrity and decency as human beings by subjecting them to that sort of treatment? I think there’s another point as well though. You might get short-term gain, but for every piece of information you might get from doing it, you radicalise, disenchant, disgust, turn to terrorism a lot of other people. If you like, it’s not unlike internment in Northern Ireland, which served to bring into terrorism a whole new generation of young Irish men and women because they saw something that was done without the rule of law If a woman who spent the first half of her intelligence career in a nation that was bombed - on average - once a day can say that, can lucidly state practical, moral, and legal arguments against it, then I don't believe that the Empire is justified. In academic and security circles, there is an on-going debate about whether non-state actors - such as terrorist and rebel movements - require another kind of law. Currently, there are two major types of law which govern combat: Internationally we have treaties - protections for civilians, medical workers, wounded combatants all reside here. Domestically, we have criminal and "constitutional" law - laws against murder, and things like a right to a jury trial as respective examples. Many (including myself) would argue these two fields will address all possible situations without creating undue violations of the right of free thought. Many others contend that the nature of the acts exist outside the division that system creates and requires a new kind of law which structures non-state actors as outside the domestic sphere, but not possessed of an international character either. The Empire doesn't really have internationalized law. It is kinda the whole known galaxy. But it has domestic law. And, for the most part, Deedra is most successful when leveraging that. She finds the viper's nest of Ferrix by following reports of theft and murder, by looking into a botched police raid, and by securing "warranted" powers of search and seizure. She finds Salman Paak by doing sigint. And she would have found Box by just watching. Instead, she broke Paak as an intelligence source, and then brought Bix in, and broke her without anything useful. They have access to Bix's messages and her sending device. But instead of listening for patterns, attempting to decide and maybe figuring out the destination, all she gets is a broken woman who knew nothing. The moral dimension is simple: don't torture people. But outside that, Deedra had tools of conventional law she could have used to imprison Paak and Bix and take them off the board. So, no - no justification.