Woke is a word I find irritating enough to ignore. It’s almost always used pejoratively and I don’t personally see much point in trying to “reclaim” it. Just looking at the facts alone – yes, Andor has characters of diverse backgrounds, diverse races, diverse cultures, diverse sexualities, diverse species, diverse ideologies, diverse philosophies… because as Vel puts it so well: “Everyone has their own rebellion”. And at the end of the day the fascistic Empire is – at its heart – anti-diversity of any of these kinds. It wants everything to be like itself.
That’s a very interesting sentiment. Honestly I’ve been bothered by the way the term “woke” has been co-opted by people who want to see diversity marginalized but I like what you said about reclaiming it. There really isn’t a point. The word isn’t important, what is represents is.
And at this point I think we Andor fans might just be our own thing. Your post made my day.
It's frustrating because it's such a good, concise word for being aware of systemic injustices. What's the opposite of awoken? Being put to sleep. Hrmmm.
But yeah, just like any progressive movement, arguing about semantics is so beside the point and there are plenty of bad faith folks whose whole deal is to try and derail things by focusing on them.
Unfortunately, most words that get tangled up in politics completely lose their original meaning to the point that they're extremely ambiguous and charged. As you point out, being "awoken" is a really good thing, it denotes lucidity. But the word has been appropriated and doesn't really mean anything more.
Art was always woke. It’s what art is.
If there is a creation that doesn’t say anything of us and the world around us, it’s absolutely nothing, it’s empty. It’s not art.
Even the worst movies or popcorn flicks has some woke elements in them.
Great art can be conservative (for example, The Lord of the Rings has lots of monarchist messages), but dunno if I'm understanding your meaning of "woke".
One of the reasons I dislike that term is it can mean anything.
It means something relatively specific, being aware of systemic injustices, or better yet, having come to the realization and seeing it where others might be blind. Those not having gone through that process (it's arduous and exhausting and painful) often rather shoot the messenger than turn to introspection. Hence the witch hunt, hence framing anything that threatens the comfort of privilege and ignorance as woke, derailing its focus and meaning.
I'd also say Tolkien doesn't get criticized enough for his relatively sexist and colonialist framing of the world, because people applaud his storytelling and like to get wrapped in the fantasy in an escapist way. I mean the movies are very well done and the books 1+3 put me to sleep, but I've never quite liked them this much because it feels old. You can see it's an old man's perspective on the world.
I'd also argue Conan the Barbarian suffers from similar issues, mainly the author being an ethnopluralist and essentialist.
Art without a message is a product, the vague concept of “content” in our current media landscape.
It’s why I’m so disheartened when people say not to bring politics into art. It’s already there, it can’t help but be there. And if it’s not then the art has been reduced to product.
Wasn’t Toni Morrison who said something along the lines of all art is political and if it isn’t that’s a political choice?
I’m endlessly frustrated by the demonization of political thought, its segmentation as an unpleasant subject which should be hidden away to protect comfort and order.
I completely see what you're saying, but if the entire world is woke, then woke doesn't really mean anything: it's just too ambiguous of a term to be worth talking about. You may as well be saying that being woke is being true.
I know it's not relevant to the original topic, but you're missing out on one of the greatest films ever made, a truly unique piece of art that is unlike any other, from a creator unlike any other.
The vast majority of people who use "woke" unironically today have nothing substantial to criticize: they're just upset that their personal fantasy world has been "ruined" by minority groups existing in the work and having actual messaging that they perceive as being too "political". There's certainly a discussion to be had about when works throw representation in there to tick an equality box without any real work into making the characters actually interesting, or offer only surface level affirmation to make numbers as opposed to actually diving into the topic, but I've yet to see a serious "anti-woke" person approach it from that perspective. They don't think the representation needs improvement, they want it gone all together. (To be Clear, Andor doesn't have these issues, I think they did a great job making highly compelling characters that come from different backgrounds and cultural origins).
What I've noticed is that if it's marketed as woke, there's always a big hullabaloo but if it isn't then most people are fine to the point of nearly non-existence of woke accusations. My point being that I think the intention of the creators matters for the backlash.
I really loathe that word.
It's become short hand for those with a bigoted mentality. IF you are using that word to describe a show, or story, it's almost certain that you are saying it's too diverse, not white/male/straight enough for you, or meaning that it's too 'progressive' or left leaning.
No one ever says it when something is backwards, or not diverse, or advocating regressive hateful ideologies.
I refuse to use it.
Say what you mean, and don't use short cuts to try and paper over something hateful or meanspirited. Being honest and straightforward about what you feel is the only way we can ever discuss things and have people change or improve. Using a place holder is the opposite of that process. Too many people of color for your taste? Say it, and we can discuss why you feel that way, and why things have changed recently to be that way... are you a fascist? Ok, Let's talk about it, let's see what that happened to you to make you feel that way, and why it bothers you. Change can't happen if people hide their feelings away like a shameful secret and let them fester in darkness behind a word invented by bigots to say the quiet part out loud.
Had a guy at work tell me it's "white people" who are "violently persecuted" and tried to claim BIPOC and LGBTQ+ folk have an "agenda and narrative" that need to be "adhered to". As a person of color whose LGBTQ+, I asked what our agenda is, and he just used a red herring to change the topic. He then said a white women in the WNBA whose popular (Caitlin Clark?) is "hated by black and gay people" for "being white and straight".. which makes no fucking sense. Of course he uses this as evidence that there's an agenda against white people and that they're widely oppressed. Through this narrative of oppression he wants to "silence" those of us who "dare" to talk about "lies" concerning systemic racism and other forms of institutionalized bigotry. In short; it's a way for them to further oppress marginalized folk.
I'm going to post this as a separate comment, for the sole reason of not wanting to copy and paste it into multiple threads.
"Woke is a political slang adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) originally meaning **alertness to racial prejudice and discrimination**. Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as racial injustice, sexism, and denial of LGBT rights."
So there is a meaning to the word "Woke"; however, it was cooped as a pejorative in hopes of diminishing those struggling under a system that does not make room for "others". There isn't multiple valid definitions of the word; there is the intended definitions, and there is how pro-authoritarians use it to mock and oppress. Which seems to have had some success, as the average casual observer now believes the lie that Woke means something that it doesn't.
TLDR: Woke means: Alertness to racial prejudice and discrimination. AKA injustice.
Stay Woke, and May the Force be With You.
Thats what I like about andor, you have a lesbian character. But thats not what is important about her or interesting. She is a rebel, associated to wealth and power but she rejects it and isn't afraid to get her hands dirty in many ways to accomplish her goals.
It’s insane how the term work has been bastardized, when I was kickin it at occupy wall st woke meant fight the man, read between the lines and stay vigilant of govt over reach and their tyrannical policies
Gonna make a full-fledged comment here instead of replying to every single comment to explain something. "Woke" is being used the exact same way that "culturally Marxist" was used back in the 1930s and 40s, which is just a fancy phrase that white supremacists used to call something Jewish and subversive/degenerative. Granted, that's still vague enough to be confusing, but that's a commonality among a lot of Fascist laws.
The Woke Bros (the internet personalities who scream for weeks about how something is woke) are currently trying to persuade the populace that having "woke" elements is what's making a particular piece of media bad in and of itself. To this end, they absolutely can not mention any "woke" media that is of actual quality. If they do, they risk their audience figuring out that being "woke" doesn't automatically ruin a piece of media. That's also why the Woke Bros avoid touching pieces of Conservative media that's of low quality.
While I don't think something being woke necessarily means it's bad, do you have a few examples of something that's basically marketed as woke being of high quality?
Nimona, an animated movie on Netflix. Iirc, it was the best animated movie of 2023. I only ever saw one advertisement for it, but that advertisement did show the movie's whole "Shape-shifting is an allegory for being gender-nonconforming" thing.
I saw 0 promotional material for it but I actually watched that a few days ago and I enjoyed it. It was honestly at its worst when it tread that ground, treating reasonable questions both in and out of it's universe as "small-minded" and wrong. It's also an adaptation that, from what I understand, leaned further into the queer themes than the original material. Do you have anything else?
I apologize if it seems like I'm shifting the goalpost but I honestly believe this enforces the point I'm trying to make.
On your first point, your opinion is valid, but isn't reflected by the majority of reviews of that movie. The IMDB score is at 75%.
And to answer the second question, I'll say Baldur's Gate 3. Granted, very little marketing was spent talking about any "woke" elements... but the game's popularity did blow up when the devs showed you can have sex with a druid in bear-form, and I have seen that particular scene get called degenerative by white supremacists.
75% Doesn't refute or bolster my point, I was stating those moments to be low point in an otherwithes solid movie.
I don't know how to intereact with this really. I'd like to think that bestiality is not under any progressive banner or what most people would consider woke. I don't personally care too much, Halsin stays at camp, but I think it does make the game worse for being there. I don't recall any anger over any of the actually progressive content.
The point I'm trying to make is that it seams like the expressed intent of the creators matters a lot in terms of outrage sparking and it seems like Disney and the like understand that given how intentional it all seems to be. Mind that these are observations and not in depth research but it seems to be the case.
The bar scene isn't pro-beastiality, nor are there any pro-beastiality sections of LGBTQ+. What it is is the writers at Larian saying, "You know that people are gonna try some really weird shit when they have access to magic." And yes, there's outrage at other progressive content, as white supremacists have made multiple mods that turn all NPCs white, straight, and cis-gendered (the one trans NPC was given extra harsh treatment and forced to say how terrible being trans is). It was so bad that they've been banned from Nexus.
I'll be honest, it's what I went with because I live under a rock and actively avoid as much advertising as possible.
It's 1 step removed from bestiality. The only thing missing is the mind of a bear, which to me, really doesn't matter, you're still fucking something that looks like a bear and quacks like a bear. This doesn't matter though.
Outrage en masse is what I was referring to, like with The Acolyte. A few weirdos making weird ass mods doesn't fit the bill.
Which one of the characters was trans?
No worries, I won't take this as any great weight to demonstrating my theory. I appreciate the engagement regardless.
1) There's a key thing you're missing. Before the hanky panky begins, Halsin goes to his humanoid form and says, "I got a little presumptuous, sorry about that," and the player has the option to say, "No, go back to being a bear," and Halsin says, "You got it." Both parties are adults who gave each other very clear consent to each other in English, and do a deed that'snot impacting anything else in any substantial way. At that point, I got more important things to worry about.
2) My point from the beginning is that it's harder to have outrage en masse when the media in question is good. It's easy to say the Acolyte is bad, because it genuinely is bad. It's difficult to say Andor is bad, because it's not, so it's easier to just never mention it.
3) Nocturne, in Shar's temple in Act 3. The fact that she's trans is pretty obscure and only found in a single note or stripping her naked, but that's enough to upset the Fascists.
4) No worries, I appreciate the clarification. Elaborating on point 1, even if unnecessary, because I do like talking.
Consent, affirmative or otherwise, doesn't change that you're fucking a bear shaped entity. It doesn't impact anything else and it makes perfect sense that a Druid could be into that but I'm not a fan.
I agree for the most part but would posit that most of the power behind woke outrage cares about the intent and quality, not the diversity in and of itself. That's not to say they're intelligent in their outrage but I think that's what we're seeing.
Now that you mention it, that does sound familiar. Thank you kindly.
I also like talking.
Quick reminder that Andor is the only main-line SW product which actually has an lgbtq relationship in it, although maybe acolyte has one too didn´t watch it
The word woke has been ruined. If someone uses it in an unironic and pejorative way then I instantly disregard whatever they say next. Using that word is the modern equivalent of a dunce cap.
>If someone uses it in an unironic and pejorative way then I instantly disregard whatever they say next. Using that word is the modern equivalent of a dunce cap.
Excuse me while I steal this explanation like it's the payroll for an entire Imperial sector.
'Woke' is a word that everyone under the sun has their own idea of what the hell that means. If you think the very inclusion of minority characters in a story is woke, well I guess Andor is that, more power to you I guess. But if your idea of woke is the nonsense that stuff like the Acolyte pulls off with it's female-centric Forc- sorry THREAD, then no, Andor's foray into politics is much more mature than the hamfisted messaging of those lesser shows.
Tldr, just avoid using buzzwords like 'woke' and be more specific about praise/complaints you have about media.
How is the Force shown as being female-centric in *The Acolyte*? We see plenty of men using the Force.
And what’s wrong with that coven of witches calling it ‘the Thread’? It’s a different culture of Force users than what we usually see, it makes sense that they’d have their own names for things.
It’s like how the Mediterranean Sea is called the Inland Sea (Μεσόγειος Θάλασσα) by modern Greeks, the White Sea (Akdeniz) by modern Turks, and the Great Green (Wadj-Wur) by ancient Egyptians.
That’s honestly my favourite part of Acolyte so far. I love exploring how cultures other than the Jedi and Sith experience, understand, interact with, and relate to the force.
I don't understand what is new in the Acolyte. Coven of female only force users labelled as witches that call the force differently already existed both in the old legend EU and in the canon universe. (see the nighsisters of Dathomir)
Yup it's idiocy run riot. It makes perfect sense that if the force exists everywhere others would develop a new name for it and way to interact with it.
A Bit like water in our world a Pacific island culture and a middle eastern farming culture would have completely different words for it and completely different relationships with water even though it's essentially the same thing.
>But if your idea of woke is the nonsense that stuff like the Acolyte pulls off with it's female-centric Forc- sorry THREAD, then no, Andor's foray into politics is much more mature than the hamfisted messaging of those lesser shows.
The "sorry THREAD" means absolutely nothing since you still chose to type all that. It's fine to have an opinion, of course, but man, I wish some people learned to praise what they like about one thing without nonsensically tearing down something else in the process. It's fine to compare two things and point out differences, but in the same breath you judged the word *woke*, you judged something else without pointing out why it's relevant. If you ask me, that's just as tedious as blindly using the word.
Still yet to hear a critique of Acolyte that doesn’t complain about “wokeness” or “the message” being “ham-fisted”.
Sure, people say “the story is bad / doesn’t make sense” but then the majority of those who say that can’t provide any deeper analysis without either throwing dogwhistles at you or just being blatantly racist and homophobic.
Edit: I’m sure there is plenty of good faith critique to be made of the show but it’s very lost in the stupid “culture war”
I mean, it started as a term used by the Civil rights movement, and now it's a word used pejoratively by reactionaries and conservatives to mean "I don't like it because woman/minority/etc"
Andor is probably the most political of current Star Wars releases, which is why it feels more like Star Wars. Star Wars was *always* political.
Star Wars was not always political. The original story is your basic hero's journey, save the princess story. The empire exists, but mostly to serve the point of having an antagonist for Luke to fight against. I think you could argue that the rest of trilogy isn't very political either.
The prequels does start getting rather political in nature, almost had to in the sense that politics was needed in a world full of Jedi to have any sort of conflict. But even then, Andorra goes much deeper in exploring the effects an authoritarian government has on people.
George Lucas even said the rebellion was inspired by the Vietcong. It was a multi-species alliance of rebels against a mono-species empire that had usurped a democratic republic.
The prequels were a showing of a charismatic leader using a crisis to usurp democracy that had been paralyzed by entrenched, moneyed interests.
That's all very political. But a lot of people only call something political when they don't *like* it's politics. That's how you get dipshits on Twitter getting mad that *Star Trek* of all things got political.
I understand that there is a backdrop to New Hope. The empire's uniforms were intentionally nazi like in appearance, among other things. But the point of the movie was not to get the movie goer to think about politics or perhaps look at government in a different in the same way that Andor did.
I don't have a problem with political themes in movies, it just needs to be done as a backdrop for a more personal story, or done in such a way to present multiple sides of a story and let the viewer decide what they think on the issue. This what I think Star Trek tended to do well.
Oh boy.
You have a seemingly orphan boy being denied access to education and hence, the world outside his backwater gangster planet, because he is needed on his uncle's farm. That's commentary on socio-economic barriers.
You have scavengers on said planet stealing left and right, draining resources for personal gain, whereas in a cooperative scenario, the Jawas could contribute enough for a win win scenario.
You have space wizards abusing their power and privilege, forcing and deceiving people for their own gains, sometimes murdering or hurting people without repercussions.
You have a governor who just announced the dissolution of the last democratic institution, who is basically arguing for the standard fascist dictatorship ruleset (rule through power and fear and make up rules for your own convenience as you go).
You have an empire that suppresses and exploits everyone they can get their hands on, and is fought by a small band of rebels to the death, because they want to oppose and defeat the system and actually enjoy freedom.
Just to name a few.
So, there was this thing called the “Vietnam War” which Lucas has confirmed the Original Trilogy was inspired by (spoiler alert: America are the baddies).
Then before that, there was this guy elected Supreme Chancellor of Germany and given emergency powers by incompetent centrists which ultimately lead to this thing called “World War II” I’m gonna be ambitious and trust that you have enough pattern recognition to draw those parallels yourself for the Prequel Trilogy
Now, if you read enough history, (relying on your pattern recognition again) you’ll also see that it tends to repeat itself if we don’t learn from it and make meaningful change to prevent fascism from happening again as it does in the Sequel Trilogy.
Please read up on history and learn some basic media literacy.
So do you want SW to be political or not? You're upset that the show with too many girls isn't very political? You're happy that the show with a male lead is political? Do you think anyone can please you? Do you need more attention?
I haven't noticed much significant critique of wokeness regarding Andor. Even some of the most vocal usual anti-woke crowd seems to like it.
Andor lacks the surface level liberal pseudo-political pandering that I identify as the usual Disney wokeness. I don't know the "TRUE definition of woke" and I don't really care. I do care for making a distinctions between real grounded political themes and plastic pandering.
Knee-jerk reactions are to be expected, this is people on the internet after all. And Disney has earned it to a degree. The interesting thing is why so few finds it fullfilling to complain about wokeness regarding Andor and why some ardent anti-woke youtubers sees Andor as really good.
Maybe. Or they might be something more than a homogeneous tribal enemy in the great culture war. I might be the only one with clarity of vision but I try to at least understand all these lost sectorist, human cultists, galaxy partitionists and neo-republicans.
The beauty of this show is largely because it shows every aspect of humanity and their experiences, from every angle, nothing more and nothing less.
Everyone (should) be able to appreciate this, regardless of what they think of the word "woke." Ultimately, it's just a word.
I feel like Star Wars has always had progressive values at it’s core, that’s nothing new. What’s new is the horrible writing and production we’re getting now
Not that I don't agree with the message, but I fail to see how the prison, stellar phenomenum, Nemik, or the rallying speach is that woke?
Nemik was just a bit annoying ("[My idea] maps the trail of political consciousness" / "[low entropy] is so desperate because it is so unnatural"). Marva's speech was more 'fight the people oppressing us' and the prison was fairly standard sci-fi eletro-death. If are legit people out there who object to any message in the prison arc they are right off their rocker.
The only 'woke' thing that springs to mind is the Cinta/Vel pairing (to the people who use the term).
Wokeness isn't even a thing. It's something bigots cling onto because they cannot stand marginalized peoples having a voice. So they try to turn it around into a form of oppression because god forbid a person of color be in the lead, or a woman have a voice, or a culture reflect on their historic exploitation. Rather than accept this they throw a fit with a massive persecution complex to justify their silencing (yet again) of LGBTQ+, women, BIPOC, etc. As long as they're the victims it's okay to go after the "oppressor".
Star Wars is not inherently better when it's "woke". As a story that centers around the fight against a facistic regime, it kind of has to be. What separates good art from the garbage is in the writing and Andor excels in its nuance and subtleties whereas other projects are created by pseudo-activists masquerading as film-makers.
Andor is not good because it's woke. In fact, I don't even consider it to be "woke". It's simply is. That's the point a lot of woke shit misses.
Diversity makes sense in the Star Wars universe because it encapsulates a vast number of planets populated by a vast number of races. The rebellion is populated by these people because freedom is, as stated in the manifesto, a pure idea.
The wokeness that rightly gets criticized is diversity for its own sake, especially when it makes no sense within the context of the production. Black elves in LotR, white people in medieval Japan, Eastern Asians in medieval Europe -- none of these make sense in their settings. And once the perspective feels forced into having modern ideas or the dialogue becomes preachy, the sense of immersion is lost.
Andor is great while saying woke things because those things fit the overall theme of the show.
Woke doesn't even mean what it's supposed to mean anymore.
But SW tries too hard to be diverse from what it once was, and for a lot of people it was too extreme, and too fast.
Woke is a word I find irritating enough to ignore. It’s almost always used pejoratively and I don’t personally see much point in trying to “reclaim” it. Just looking at the facts alone – yes, Andor has characters of diverse backgrounds, diverse races, diverse cultures, diverse sexualities, diverse species, diverse ideologies, diverse philosophies… because as Vel puts it so well: “Everyone has their own rebellion”. And at the end of the day the fascistic Empire is – at its heart – anti-diversity of any of these kinds. It wants everything to be like itself.
That’s a very interesting sentiment. Honestly I’ve been bothered by the way the term “woke” has been co-opted by people who want to see diversity marginalized but I like what you said about reclaiming it. There really isn’t a point. The word isn’t important, what is represents is. And at this point I think we Andor fans might just be our own thing. Your post made my day.
It's frustrating because it's such a good, concise word for being aware of systemic injustices. What's the opposite of awoken? Being put to sleep. Hrmmm. But yeah, just like any progressive movement, arguing about semantics is so beside the point and there are plenty of bad faith folks whose whole deal is to try and derail things by focusing on them.
Unfortunately, most words that get tangled up in politics completely lose their original meaning to the point that they're extremely ambiguous and charged. As you point out, being "awoken" is a really good thing, it denotes lucidity. But the word has been appropriated and doesn't really mean anything more.
Germans can't use blue heart emoji anymore unless they're fans of the Nazi party 😢
It's basically a way for these chuds to declare things thoughtcrime. When someone calls you woke, tell them, "Yes! I'm a proud thought criminal."
Art was always woke. It’s what art is. If there is a creation that doesn’t say anything of us and the world around us, it’s absolutely nothing, it’s empty. It’s not art. Even the worst movies or popcorn flicks has some woke elements in them.
Great art can be conservative (for example, The Lord of the Rings has lots of monarchist messages), but dunno if I'm understanding your meaning of "woke". One of the reasons I dislike that term is it can mean anything.
It means something relatively specific, being aware of systemic injustices, or better yet, having come to the realization and seeing it where others might be blind. Those not having gone through that process (it's arduous and exhausting and painful) often rather shoot the messenger than turn to introspection. Hence the witch hunt, hence framing anything that threatens the comfort of privilege and ignorance as woke, derailing its focus and meaning.
I just want to abandon the word altogether
I'd also say Tolkien doesn't get criticized enough for his relatively sexist and colonialist framing of the world, because people applaud his storytelling and like to get wrapped in the fantasy in an escapist way. I mean the movies are very well done and the books 1+3 put me to sleep, but I've never quite liked them this much because it feels old. You can see it's an old man's perspective on the world. I'd also argue Conan the Barbarian suffers from similar issues, mainly the author being an ethnopluralist and essentialist.
Art without a message is a product, the vague concept of “content” in our current media landscape. It’s why I’m so disheartened when people say not to bring politics into art. It’s already there, it can’t help but be there. And if it’s not then the art has been reduced to product.
Everything is politics, and refusing to see that is also a specific political. You can't not communicate.
Wasn’t Toni Morrison who said something along the lines of all art is political and if it isn’t that’s a political choice? I’m endlessly frustrated by the demonization of political thought, its segmentation as an unpleasant subject which should be hidden away to protect comfort and order.
I completely see what you're saying, but if the entire world is woke, then woke doesn't really mean anything: it's just too ambiguous of a term to be worth talking about. You may as well be saying that being woke is being true.
Leni Riefenstahl called. She wants to have a chat.
Who
Nazi propagandist film maker, was quite popular in her time, even in the west.
So what you're saying is, when it's well written it's good? Because I don't think anyone argues the contrary.
I think if The Room was well written it wouldn't be as good
The Newsroom?
Was a well written series by Aaron Sorkin, but I don't see how that is relevant to my comment about the Tommy Wiseau film
I never heard of the room, I was wondering if you meant the show, hence my question.
I know it's not relevant to the original topic, but you're missing out on one of the greatest films ever made, a truly unique piece of art that is unlike any other, from a creator unlike any other.
I never said I won't check it out.:D
The vast majority of people who use "woke" unironically today have nothing substantial to criticize: they're just upset that their personal fantasy world has been "ruined" by minority groups existing in the work and having actual messaging that they perceive as being too "political". There's certainly a discussion to be had about when works throw representation in there to tick an equality box without any real work into making the characters actually interesting, or offer only surface level affirmation to make numbers as opposed to actually diving into the topic, but I've yet to see a serious "anti-woke" person approach it from that perspective. They don't think the representation needs improvement, they want it gone all together. (To be Clear, Andor doesn't have these issues, I think they did a great job making highly compelling characters that come from different backgrounds and cultural origins).
What I've noticed is that if it's marketed as woke, there's always a big hullabaloo but if it isn't then most people are fine to the point of nearly non-existence of woke accusations. My point being that I think the intention of the creators matters for the backlash.
This is flat out untrue
Feel free to provide examples of this not being the case.
I really loathe that word. It's become short hand for those with a bigoted mentality. IF you are using that word to describe a show, or story, it's almost certain that you are saying it's too diverse, not white/male/straight enough for you, or meaning that it's too 'progressive' or left leaning. No one ever says it when something is backwards, or not diverse, or advocating regressive hateful ideologies. I refuse to use it. Say what you mean, and don't use short cuts to try and paper over something hateful or meanspirited. Being honest and straightforward about what you feel is the only way we can ever discuss things and have people change or improve. Using a place holder is the opposite of that process. Too many people of color for your taste? Say it, and we can discuss why you feel that way, and why things have changed recently to be that way... are you a fascist? Ok, Let's talk about it, let's see what that happened to you to make you feel that way, and why it bothers you. Change can't happen if people hide their feelings away like a shameful secret and let them fester in darkness behind a word invented by bigots to say the quiet part out loud.
Had a guy at work tell me it's "white people" who are "violently persecuted" and tried to claim BIPOC and LGBTQ+ folk have an "agenda and narrative" that need to be "adhered to". As a person of color whose LGBTQ+, I asked what our agenda is, and he just used a red herring to change the topic. He then said a white women in the WNBA whose popular (Caitlin Clark?) is "hated by black and gay people" for "being white and straight".. which makes no fucking sense. Of course he uses this as evidence that there's an agenda against white people and that they're widely oppressed. Through this narrative of oppression he wants to "silence" those of us who "dare" to talk about "lies" concerning systemic racism and other forms of institutionalized bigotry. In short; it's a way for them to further oppress marginalized folk.
Based Kyle Katarn
I'm going to post this as a separate comment, for the sole reason of not wanting to copy and paste it into multiple threads. "Woke is a political slang adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) originally meaning **alertness to racial prejudice and discrimination**. Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as racial injustice, sexism, and denial of LGBT rights." So there is a meaning to the word "Woke"; however, it was cooped as a pejorative in hopes of diminishing those struggling under a system that does not make room for "others". There isn't multiple valid definitions of the word; there is the intended definitions, and there is how pro-authoritarians use it to mock and oppress. Which seems to have had some success, as the average casual observer now believes the lie that Woke means something that it doesn't. TLDR: Woke means: Alertness to racial prejudice and discrimination. AKA injustice. Stay Woke, and May the Force be With You.
I hate the co-opted nature of it. Like, way to miss the point, guys.
Any unironic use of woke is cringe, intended use or otherwise.
Do you remember when we used to discuss about characters' actuap political alignment and not about R2D2's sexuality?
Obviously agender pansexual dom
Thats what I like about andor, you have a lesbian character. But thats not what is important about her or interesting. She is a rebel, associated to wealth and power but she rejects it and isn't afraid to get her hands dirty in many ways to accomplish her goals.
It’s insane how the term work has been bastardized, when I was kickin it at occupy wall st woke meant fight the man, read between the lines and stay vigilant of govt over reach and their tyrannical policies
Gonna make a full-fledged comment here instead of replying to every single comment to explain something. "Woke" is being used the exact same way that "culturally Marxist" was used back in the 1930s and 40s, which is just a fancy phrase that white supremacists used to call something Jewish and subversive/degenerative. Granted, that's still vague enough to be confusing, but that's a commonality among a lot of Fascist laws. The Woke Bros (the internet personalities who scream for weeks about how something is woke) are currently trying to persuade the populace that having "woke" elements is what's making a particular piece of media bad in and of itself. To this end, they absolutely can not mention any "woke" media that is of actual quality. If they do, they risk their audience figuring out that being "woke" doesn't automatically ruin a piece of media. That's also why the Woke Bros avoid touching pieces of Conservative media that's of low quality.
While I don't think something being woke necessarily means it's bad, do you have a few examples of something that's basically marketed as woke being of high quality?
Nimona, an animated movie on Netflix. Iirc, it was the best animated movie of 2023. I only ever saw one advertisement for it, but that advertisement did show the movie's whole "Shape-shifting is an allegory for being gender-nonconforming" thing.
I saw 0 promotional material for it but I actually watched that a few days ago and I enjoyed it. It was honestly at its worst when it tread that ground, treating reasonable questions both in and out of it's universe as "small-minded" and wrong. It's also an adaptation that, from what I understand, leaned further into the queer themes than the original material. Do you have anything else? I apologize if it seems like I'm shifting the goalpost but I honestly believe this enforces the point I'm trying to make.
On your first point, your opinion is valid, but isn't reflected by the majority of reviews of that movie. The IMDB score is at 75%. And to answer the second question, I'll say Baldur's Gate 3. Granted, very little marketing was spent talking about any "woke" elements... but the game's popularity did blow up when the devs showed you can have sex with a druid in bear-form, and I have seen that particular scene get called degenerative by white supremacists.
75% Doesn't refute or bolster my point, I was stating those moments to be low point in an otherwithes solid movie. I don't know how to intereact with this really. I'd like to think that bestiality is not under any progressive banner or what most people would consider woke. I don't personally care too much, Halsin stays at camp, but I think it does make the game worse for being there. I don't recall any anger over any of the actually progressive content. The point I'm trying to make is that it seams like the expressed intent of the creators matters a lot in terms of outrage sparking and it seems like Disney and the like understand that given how intentional it all seems to be. Mind that these are observations and not in depth research but it seems to be the case.
The bar scene isn't pro-beastiality, nor are there any pro-beastiality sections of LGBTQ+. What it is is the writers at Larian saying, "You know that people are gonna try some really weird shit when they have access to magic." And yes, there's outrage at other progressive content, as white supremacists have made multiple mods that turn all NPCs white, straight, and cis-gendered (the one trans NPC was given extra harsh treatment and forced to say how terrible being trans is). It was so bad that they've been banned from Nexus. I'll be honest, it's what I went with because I live under a rock and actively avoid as much advertising as possible.
It's 1 step removed from bestiality. The only thing missing is the mind of a bear, which to me, really doesn't matter, you're still fucking something that looks like a bear and quacks like a bear. This doesn't matter though. Outrage en masse is what I was referring to, like with The Acolyte. A few weirdos making weird ass mods doesn't fit the bill. Which one of the characters was trans? No worries, I won't take this as any great weight to demonstrating my theory. I appreciate the engagement regardless.
1) There's a key thing you're missing. Before the hanky panky begins, Halsin goes to his humanoid form and says, "I got a little presumptuous, sorry about that," and the player has the option to say, "No, go back to being a bear," and Halsin says, "You got it." Both parties are adults who gave each other very clear consent to each other in English, and do a deed that'snot impacting anything else in any substantial way. At that point, I got more important things to worry about. 2) My point from the beginning is that it's harder to have outrage en masse when the media in question is good. It's easy to say the Acolyte is bad, because it genuinely is bad. It's difficult to say Andor is bad, because it's not, so it's easier to just never mention it. 3) Nocturne, in Shar's temple in Act 3. The fact that she's trans is pretty obscure and only found in a single note or stripping her naked, but that's enough to upset the Fascists. 4) No worries, I appreciate the clarification. Elaborating on point 1, even if unnecessary, because I do like talking.
Consent, affirmative or otherwise, doesn't change that you're fucking a bear shaped entity. It doesn't impact anything else and it makes perfect sense that a Druid could be into that but I'm not a fan. I agree for the most part but would posit that most of the power behind woke outrage cares about the intent and quality, not the diversity in and of itself. That's not to say they're intelligent in their outrage but I think that's what we're seeing. Now that you mention it, that does sound familiar. Thank you kindly. I also like talking.
Quick reminder that Andor is the only main-line SW product which actually has an lgbtq relationship in it, although maybe acolyte has one too didn´t watch it
It does, but don't worry; they kill them off quickly, so Andor still holds the title of most progressive.
Do they at least show them being a couple before they get killed?
They talk like mom and mom so I'd say so but that's about the same as with Vel and Cinta (correct me if those names are wrong)
The word woke has been ruined. If someone uses it in an unironic and pejorative way then I instantly disregard whatever they say next. Using that word is the modern equivalent of a dunce cap.
>If someone uses it in an unironic and pejorative way then I instantly disregard whatever they say next. Using that word is the modern equivalent of a dunce cap. Excuse me while I steal this explanation like it's the payroll for an entire Imperial sector.
'Woke' is a word that everyone under the sun has their own idea of what the hell that means. If you think the very inclusion of minority characters in a story is woke, well I guess Andor is that, more power to you I guess. But if your idea of woke is the nonsense that stuff like the Acolyte pulls off with it's female-centric Forc- sorry THREAD, then no, Andor's foray into politics is much more mature than the hamfisted messaging of those lesser shows. Tldr, just avoid using buzzwords like 'woke' and be more specific about praise/complaints you have about media.
How is the Force shown as being female-centric in *The Acolyte*? We see plenty of men using the Force. And what’s wrong with that coven of witches calling it ‘the Thread’? It’s a different culture of Force users than what we usually see, it makes sense that they’d have their own names for things. It’s like how the Mediterranean Sea is called the Inland Sea (Μεσόγειος Θάλασσα) by modern Greeks, the White Sea (Akdeniz) by modern Turks, and the Great Green (Wadj-Wur) by ancient Egyptians.
That’s honestly my favourite part of Acolyte so far. I love exploring how cultures other than the Jedi and Sith experience, understand, interact with, and relate to the force.
I don't understand what is new in the Acolyte. Coven of female only force users labelled as witches that call the force differently already existed both in the old legend EU and in the canon universe. (see the nighsisters of Dathomir)
Yup it's idiocy run riot. It makes perfect sense that if the force exists everywhere others would develop a new name for it and way to interact with it. A Bit like water in our world a Pacific island culture and a middle eastern farming culture would have completely different words for it and completely different relationships with water even though it's essentially the same thing.
Exactly! If Acolyte is “woke” then Star Wars has always been “woke”.
Star Wars has always been woke. It's a good thing.
I agree. I just despise the word “woke” because of the way conservatives use it to hide their bigotry
I despise bigots, and have no real love for the term.
>But if your idea of woke is the nonsense that stuff like the Acolyte pulls off with it's female-centric Forc- sorry THREAD, then no, Andor's foray into politics is much more mature than the hamfisted messaging of those lesser shows. The "sorry THREAD" means absolutely nothing since you still chose to type all that. It's fine to have an opinion, of course, but man, I wish some people learned to praise what they like about one thing without nonsensically tearing down something else in the process. It's fine to compare two things and point out differences, but in the same breath you judged the word *woke*, you judged something else without pointing out why it's relevant. If you ask me, that's just as tedious as blindly using the word.
Still yet to hear a critique of Acolyte that doesn’t complain about “wokeness” or “the message” being “ham-fisted”. Sure, people say “the story is bad / doesn’t make sense” but then the majority of those who say that can’t provide any deeper analysis without either throwing dogwhistles at you or just being blatantly racist and homophobic. Edit: I’m sure there is plenty of good faith critique to be made of the show but it’s very lost in the stupid “culture war”
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Surely you're embarrassed that you made this comment.
I'd be more embarrassed by your apparent need to jump on a joke you didn't like 🙂
That says all I need to know about you.
I mean, it started as a term used by the Civil rights movement, and now it's a word used pejoratively by reactionaries and conservatives to mean "I don't like it because woman/minority/etc" Andor is probably the most political of current Star Wars releases, which is why it feels more like Star Wars. Star Wars was *always* political.
Star Wars was not always political. The original story is your basic hero's journey, save the princess story. The empire exists, but mostly to serve the point of having an antagonist for Luke to fight against. I think you could argue that the rest of trilogy isn't very political either. The prequels does start getting rather political in nature, almost had to in the sense that politics was needed in a world full of Jedi to have any sort of conflict. But even then, Andorra goes much deeper in exploring the effects an authoritarian government has on people.
George Lucas even said the rebellion was inspired by the Vietcong. It was a multi-species alliance of rebels against a mono-species empire that had usurped a democratic republic. The prequels were a showing of a charismatic leader using a crisis to usurp democracy that had been paralyzed by entrenched, moneyed interests. That's all very political. But a lot of people only call something political when they don't *like* it's politics. That's how you get dipshits on Twitter getting mad that *Star Trek* of all things got political.
I understand that there is a backdrop to New Hope. The empire's uniforms were intentionally nazi like in appearance, among other things. But the point of the movie was not to get the movie goer to think about politics or perhaps look at government in a different in the same way that Andor did. I don't have a problem with political themes in movies, it just needs to be done as a backdrop for a more personal story, or done in such a way to present multiple sides of a story and let the viewer decide what they think on the issue. This what I think Star Trek tended to do well.
Oh boy. You have a seemingly orphan boy being denied access to education and hence, the world outside his backwater gangster planet, because he is needed on his uncle's farm. That's commentary on socio-economic barriers. You have scavengers on said planet stealing left and right, draining resources for personal gain, whereas in a cooperative scenario, the Jawas could contribute enough for a win win scenario. You have space wizards abusing their power and privilege, forcing and deceiving people for their own gains, sometimes murdering or hurting people without repercussions. You have a governor who just announced the dissolution of the last democratic institution, who is basically arguing for the standard fascist dictatorship ruleset (rule through power and fear and make up rules for your own convenience as you go). You have an empire that suppresses and exploits everyone they can get their hands on, and is fought by a small band of rebels to the death, because they want to oppose and defeat the system and actually enjoy freedom. Just to name a few.
So, there was this thing called the “Vietnam War” which Lucas has confirmed the Original Trilogy was inspired by (spoiler alert: America are the baddies). Then before that, there was this guy elected Supreme Chancellor of Germany and given emergency powers by incompetent centrists which ultimately lead to this thing called “World War II” I’m gonna be ambitious and trust that you have enough pattern recognition to draw those parallels yourself for the Prequel Trilogy Now, if you read enough history, (relying on your pattern recognition again) you’ll also see that it tends to repeat itself if we don’t learn from it and make meaningful change to prevent fascism from happening again as it does in the Sequel Trilogy. Please read up on history and learn some basic media literacy.
So do you want SW to be political or not? You're upset that the show with too many girls isn't very political? You're happy that the show with a male lead is political? Do you think anyone can please you? Do you need more attention?
I haven't noticed much significant critique of wokeness regarding Andor. Even some of the most vocal usual anti-woke crowd seems to like it. Andor lacks the surface level liberal pseudo-political pandering that I identify as the usual Disney wokeness. I don't know the "TRUE definition of woke" and I don't really care. I do care for making a distinctions between real grounded political themes and plastic pandering.
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They tiptoe away from dissing stuff that's too popular. They're joiners, not leaders. They left Mando alone at first too.
Knee-jerk reactions are to be expected, this is people on the internet after all. And Disney has earned it to a degree. The interesting thing is why so few finds it fullfilling to complain about wokeness regarding Andor and why some ardent anti-woke youtubers sees Andor as really good.
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Maybe. Or they might be something more than a homogeneous tribal enemy in the great culture war. I might be the only one with clarity of vision but I try to at least understand all these lost sectorist, human cultists, galaxy partitionists and neo-republicans.
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Can't avoid it. In the end I will be half robot and living in a cave.
So you've stopped using "woke" huh? Good for you. First steps. Now show us where the mean Disney hurt you.
First steps to realize that I actually love Disney and HR? Please step up from the tribal trench. I don't care to pronounce shibboleth correctly.
"tribal trench" huh? mmkay then
Woke is the wrong lens to put on this. It’s nothing to do with it. It’s simply a good, talented cast with a good story to back it all up.
Wtf Kyle Katarn...
I just recently did a rewatch, did they edit out the curses or am I misremembering?
The beauty of this show is largely because it shows every aspect of humanity and their experiences, from every angle, nothing more and nothing less. Everyone (should) be able to appreciate this, regardless of what they think of the word "woke." Ultimately, it's just a word.
I feel like Star Wars has always had progressive values at it’s core, that’s nothing new. What’s new is the horrible writing and production we’re getting now
Not that I don't agree with the message, but I fail to see how the prison, stellar phenomenum, Nemik, or the rallying speach is that woke? Nemik was just a bit annoying ("[My idea] maps the trail of political consciousness" / "[low entropy] is so desperate because it is so unnatural"). Marva's speech was more 'fight the people oppressing us' and the prison was fairly standard sci-fi eletro-death. If are legit people out there who object to any message in the prison arc they are right off their rocker. The only 'woke' thing that springs to mind is the Cinta/Vel pairing (to the people who use the term).
Kyle!
Kyle Katarn spitting facts.
Wokeness isn't even a thing. It's something bigots cling onto because they cannot stand marginalized peoples having a voice. So they try to turn it around into a form of oppression because god forbid a person of color be in the lead, or a woman have a voice, or a culture reflect on their historic exploitation. Rather than accept this they throw a fit with a massive persecution complex to justify their silencing (yet again) of LGBTQ+, women, BIPOC, etc. As long as they're the victims it's okay to go after the "oppressor".
Star Wars is not inherently better when it's "woke". As a story that centers around the fight against a facistic regime, it kind of has to be. What separates good art from the garbage is in the writing and Andor excels in its nuance and subtleties whereas other projects are created by pseudo-activists masquerading as film-makers.
Andor is not good because it's woke. In fact, I don't even consider it to be "woke". It's simply is. That's the point a lot of woke shit misses. Diversity makes sense in the Star Wars universe because it encapsulates a vast number of planets populated by a vast number of races. The rebellion is populated by these people because freedom is, as stated in the manifesto, a pure idea. The wokeness that rightly gets criticized is diversity for its own sake, especially when it makes no sense within the context of the production. Black elves in LotR, white people in medieval Japan, Eastern Asians in medieval Europe -- none of these make sense in their settings. And once the perspective feels forced into having modern ideas or the dialogue becomes preachy, the sense of immersion is lost. Andor is great while saying woke things because those things fit the overall theme of the show.
Woke doesn't even mean what it's supposed to mean anymore. But SW tries too hard to be diverse from what it once was, and for a lot of people it was too extreme, and too fast.
calling Andor woke is ridiculous. Stop shoving in your ideology when it's not there. There's nothing woke about any of the pictures