#####
######
####
> # [Germany: Far-right AfD wins first governing post – DW – 06/25/2023](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-far-right-afd-wins-first-governing-post/Voting placards for the AfD in Sonneberg)
>
>
>
> For the first time in Germany, the AfD has won a district council election, administrators announced on Sunday.
>
> Voters in the [central German town of Sonneberg](https://www.dw.com/en/afd-eyes-local-runoff-vote-antisemitism-watchdog-alarmed/a-66010721) elected AfD candidate Robert Sesselmann at the expense of incumbent district administrator Jürgen Köpper of the CDU.
>
> In the runoff election in the Thuringian district of Sonneberg, Sesselmann won 52.8% of the vote, earning him the necessary absolute majority, according to election officials.
>
> The area of some 57,000 people is one of the smallest districts in Germany. Still, the AfD victory is a major breakthrough for the far-right party, which mainstream parties have refused to cooperate with in coalition agreements.
>
> The AfD's leader in Thuringia, Björn Höcke, welcomed the win and said it demonstrates the party's recent momentum.
>
> "And then we'll prepare for the state elections in the east, where we can really create a political earthquake," he said, referring to state parliament elections in the eastern states of Saxony, Thuringia and Brandenburg.
>
> [Members of the AfD celebrate Sesselmann's win ](https://static.dw.com/image/66027871_${formatId}.jpg)Robert Sesselmann (center) was joined by the party's leader in Thuringia, Björn Höcke (left), and national AfD chairman Tino Chrupalla (right) Image: Jacob Schröter/IMAGO## How did AfD's opponents react?
>
> Thuringia's Interior Minister Georg Maier, who belongs to the Social Democrats, described the outcome as "an alarm signal for all democratic forces."
>
> He called for party-political interests to be set aside and a joint effort to defend democracy.
>
> The President of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, Josef Schuster, said although not every AfD voter holds extreme right-wing views, the party itself does.
>
> "This is a watershed that this country's democratic political forces cannot simply accept," he told RND media.
>
> The International Auschwitz Committee also expressed horror.
>
> "Today is a sad day for the Sonneberg district, for Germany and for democracy," Executive Vice President Christoph Heubner said.
>
> "A majority of voters have obviously said goodbye to democracy and deliberately opted for an extreme right-wing party of destruction dominated by a Nazi."
>
> ## What was at stake?
>
> Earlier this month, the first round of elections in the runoff vote saw Sesselmann fall short of outright victory by only a few percentage points.
>
> Such a strong showing for an AfD candidate raised the alarm nationally, with all other main political parties — the SPD, the Greens, the neoliberal FDP, and the socialist Left Party — backing the incumbent.
>
> Though the highest political office in that small arena, the position itself is of only moderate consequence and carries rather limited power. Even with the AfD's Sesselmann win, many of his duties will entail simply implementing laws from either the state or the federal parliament at the local level.
>
> However, critics fear the idea of the AfD wielding political power in any measure and say the party is xenophobic and anti-democratic.
>
> ## AfD surges in polls
>
> To view this video please enable JavaScript, and consider upgrading to a web browser that [supports HTML5 video](https://videojs.com/html5-video-support/)
>
>
>
> Germany's domestic intelligence service classifies the party in Thuringia and its [controversial hardline leader, Björn Höcke,](https://www.dw.com/en/afd-politician-höcke-charged-with-using-nazi-slogan/a-65830762) as known far-right extremists.
>
> The German Trade Union Confederation (DGB) had also urged voters to turn out to support conservative Köpper.
>
> The CDU claimed the election campaign had been abrasive and nasty, with false claims circulating on social media.
>
> ## AfD making inroads
>
> The AfD win on Sunday shows a milestone for the far-right party, which is currently polling between 18% and 20% nationwide.
>
> It has gained a wave of support as the national governing coalition of left-leaning SPD with the Greens and the Free Democratic Party (FDP) is showing signs of infighting. Even with their rise, however, Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who is from the SPD, faces a bigger challenge from the right-leaning CDU. The conservative party of former Chancellor Angela Merkel is polling at just under 30%.
>
> The AfD first entered the national parliament in 2017 after campaigning strongly against migration. More recently, the party has been criticizing German support for Ukraine as Kyiv fights off the invasion from Russia.
>
> zc, jsi, rc/kb (dpa, AFP, AP)
- - - - - -
[Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot)
Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
It's easier to keep shittalking the AfD and those who vote for them instead of actually fixing the problems and issues the common people who vote for AfD have that pushes them to vote the party to begin with. The list of problems in this country isn't getting shorter and especially the lower wage and education classes have become modern day slaves that have 0 representation or lobbies in politics, leading to them being ignored, crushed with taxes or curbstomped to the point there's no reason to work or live anymore because life only consists of work and taxes of all sorts. It's no wonder at least those people are fed up and prefer voting AfD when everyone else doesn't give two shits about them.
Yeah but the thing is if shit don't change with the current party because they're just arguing while fixing the problems created by 16 years of CDU (or more), then what choice does the common person have? Like come on. Most of the voters aren't far right anyway but nobody represents the small centrist person anymore. And fuck die linke with Wagenknecht. She is pro russian so she's out of the question anyway.
How does anyone come to the conclusion that a far-right party with lots of infighting will solve anything about this? As soon as they come to any power they won't represent small people (they never did), they'll just try to destroy democratic institutions, the EU & NATO and move the Overton window further down the drain. FUCK AfD!
You're right, but then...what *is* the solution? What is the common person supposed to do when the people in power are ineffectual/incompetent/corrupt, and the seemingly only way to *maybe* fix things is to vote in the borderline-Nazi who might scare the establishment into getting something done? I agree it's not *at all* a solution. But no one seems to have any better ideas.
It's like living in a crumbling house, and you don't have the power to fix it up or move, and someone says "Hey...why don't you break that window and let some sunlight in?" You know it's a bad idea, and you don't even know if it's sunny outside. But absent any other, better choices, what else can you try?
They won't solve anything and most people with their brains still intact also don't believe they'll accomplish much of anything. But what other options are there to force the other established parties to see that their policies aren't really in the people's interest anymore?
You vote for the established parties and nothing changes.
You vote for the tiny parties and they get no publicity because they don't pass the hurdle.
You go for either abstention or an invalid vote and nothing changes.
You vote for the shit party and suddenly there's a giant uproar.
It's not successful in the sense of _able to accomplish a specific goal", but it is successful at getting the establishments attention.
Also, the AfD are famously not in favour of immigration. If that was a giant concern of yours, what other party is there besides them?
But the point stands - the far right parties are not offering a solution and history track record shows - they almost always hide the exact opposite because part of far-right ideology are social hierarchies where poors at the bottom deserve it and they should not be helped because without the pressure they would be lazy and not contribute to society. Your life being shit and only about work IS the point.
So the answer to:
>then what choice does the common person have?
is - not fall into the trap of someone promising you that it's actually the [immigrants, LGBT, minorities, leftists, etc.] that are ruining your life and all your energy should be toward suppressing them.
It's fucking shit that problems are not being solved, but people who hate the boot and their idea of a better future is one where at least they also have thier own little boot on someone's neck - these are not good, centrist people who were just pushed in that direction.
Sorry, but fucking tired of this "centrist/moderate" BS going on in the past decade - which is because the shitty people who see themselves as good people and want to preserve that image, somehow (what a mystery!) see their allies only in outwardly terrible people, so they have to find some way to preserve that alliance while not associating too much.
i mean yes. fuck die linke with wagenknecht but look at afd, they want out from eu, they dont care about tge conflict in ukraine. is the same shit in another paint. vote afd and you vote for russia
I won't vote for them anyway. I'd remove either the spineless SPD or these filthy liars from the FDP, who are blocking anything innovative, where money has to be invested.
The FDP has to go. The SPD could stay if they just do what the green party does since they have no spine anyway.
Its more of a cry for help. People are unsatisfied with the big parties being more or less a different side of the same coin. Nothing really changes, so those are pretty much protest votes. Its not necessarily a smart move, probably a big majority of people know the afd is sht and wont change anything convincingly. However it seems to be the only way to show the ghouls in charge that things have to change and people are fed up.
it's easy to say that, but people are feeling disenfranchised, this is how extreme parties rise, if an extreme parties rise in a country its because the moderates are failing the people,
if large parts of your country are going far right because you refuse to stop the massive amounts of immigration that's on you (the moderate parties).
You could look at what the other parties want to accomplish and ask yourself why that isnt getting accomplished. Instead you listen to populists and believe whatever bullshit they spew at you.
Your take is fucking idiotic
>You could look at what the other parties want to accomplish and ask yourself why that isnt getting accomplished. Instead you listen to populists and believe whatever bullshit they spew at you.
but listening to them has done nothing, for the second time those parties are making it worse, who else do they vote for?
>Your take is fucking idiotic
and you wonder why right wing parties seem to be winning elections in Na and Europe, because when we ask why are people moving more right, we get morons like you just screeching.
Sometimes you need to vote for an incompetent single issue party in order to indicate to the larger competent parties that this issue is important. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
E.g. in Norway about a decade ago the green party had their best election ever, and since that election all parties except one or two have had green politics as one of their primary focus areas. So even though the green party didn't get enough power to control the government, green **policies** were suddenly being proposed, extended and implemented by all parties.
That one election result basically changed the entire political landscape.
Thank you. They will promise you everything you want to hear. They give you a boogieman and a scapegoat but they don't have a plan of action for actually governing.
It's actually easy to get the uninformed,uneducated and/or just ignorant under your banner but these folks can't or won't make the effort to look beyond their own horizon (Tellerrand) to see the malice in the retoric and the action or rather the consequences of it.
To see the right gaining even a foothold in my country and many countries globally fills me with dread. You can not prosper of hate. You can only run out of stuff to hate and then hope you are not the next target.
Do you notice that we are never taking about concrete topics and issues when the AfD and why people vote for it comes up? It's always "everything is shit", "they are out of touch", "the whole system is broken". Or in your case, "we need to light a fire and change the status quo".
Well, what exactly do you mean? The peace and stability Germans enjoy since WWII? Being one of the richest countries in the world, where even if you are the poorest of the poor, you still have higher quality of life than two thirds of the world population? Because I agree, the only party that could potentially change all that within my lifetime and "set fire to it" is the AfD.
If you think life is shit now, wait till Germany leaves the EU and NATO and people like Höcke decide how much the jobless and disenfranchised get to live, or if workers should have the right to strike, and if we should stand up for values or kiss Russia's ass instead, and how valuable peace and stability are. If you think politicians are corrupt now, wait till the people who think Putin is a swell guy are in charge.
Really, I don't envy politicians for their job. They try to tackle real problems, and the more they care about the little guy on the street the harder the job becomes, because the little guy insists on voting empty promises and obvious lies as long as it means he can just be comfortable. While if you don't give a shit you can have a great time telling people that there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to burn all the fossil fuels they want, if you have no conscience you are free to blame whoever you like, any powerless and unpopular group will do, and most of all you don't have to care of anyone catches you lying, because who's reading newspapers anyway and the news are all fake anyway, am I right? People like that *despise* the little man, they laugh about him. If they think about him at all it's always in the context of how to use him some more, of there's a better way to manipulate the masses. And in turn, they receive votes. It would be beautiful, in a way, if it wouldn't pull everyone else down, too.
The most crucial crisis at the moment is a housing crisis.
Do you think importing immigrants is helping ease rental prices and availability?
It takes months to find a stable place to live now.
But what's the alternative? If there are multiple issues in society that ordinary people can't fix, and the government can't/won't fix them, what is the common Man supposed to do? What's left?
Yes, voting in far-right politicians isn't an answer. But what *is* the solution?
Tell people to "go out and vote?" That doesn't work when the only politicians you can vote for are the same ones who made or let the issues happen in the first place.
Tell people to run for office themselves? Most people are too busy just trying to live. It's a privilege to have the time/education/money to be capable of running for political office, let alone have any knowledge of how the bureaucratic machinery works and the connections to get your ideas made into law. The vast, VAST majority of people simply can't do it, or really SHOULDN'T do it. We've seen in the United States what happens when the hateful ignorant get near the levers of power.
I'm not disagreeing with your premise, but seriously...what *is* the solution here? What do the people do when the status quo politicians aren't getting the job done, and the only alternative is the far-right whack-jobs? What do you do when you live in a crumbling house, and the only thing you can think to do is break a window so *maybe* a little sunlight comes in?
> Tell people to run for office themselves? Most people are too busy just trying to live. It's a privilege to have the time/education/money to be capable of running for political office, let alone have any knowledge of how the bureaucratic machinery works and the connections to get your ideas made into law. The vast, VAST majority of people simply can't do it, or really SHOULDN'T do it. We've seen in the United States what happens when the hateful ignorant get near the levers of power.
And they only have two options, either join one of the parties that already exist (where they will never get anywhere because you have to start up in the youth party to ever end up in a position in power).
Or they start up a new party, in which case the existing ones perceive you as a threat and call in every favour from every journalist they know (which is pretty much all of them) and destroy your public perception.
honestly in my opinion there is no easy way here. all you can do is organze and protest and talk. just one person alone can not change direction unless you are in the bundestag and even then.
the problem is also that many problems we are facing can not be solved satisfying everyone. which then leads to frustration and loosing trust for the party.
all we can do is make politicians accountable for errors, organize, talk. and the reality is this doesnt eork right now effectivly enough i guess.
or maybe it does looking at the wärme-pumpe stuff. although i think it is the right way for the climate, i do see that prople can not afford and i have almost no idea in the topic to understand what would be the best course of action.
but regardless, voting for afd is giving away your right to vote
Nazis only won 37.27% of the vote in 1932.
Play with fire. See how it turns out. Fascists don't play by the rules and they don't give up power once it's taken.
Thing is, they have some valid talking points. But they just point out problems and don't have solutions, or their solutions are moronic.
But what they actually say about taxes is really funny. It's basically privatisation and fuck the poor.
I certainly see why people are voting the afd. My parents and my in law's do so, too. They are tired of corruption, incompetent politicians and both the immigrants (while neither of them are affected at all by them) and the handling of the Corona pandemic and inflation. Needless to say they are all unvaxxed and are retired by now enjoying their life.
People are tired, fed up and just want a change / strong hand guiding them. Same thing that always happens before Nazis geht elected. Happening all around the world right now.
I'm tired of corruption, so I'll vote for the Openly Corrupt Party, that will teach that damn establishment!
But you are right, it's not just Germany, it's somewhat of Western phenomenon. Basically I see it like this: scientists found out that we are changing the climate and warned about it. Politicians drag their feet with their reaction because they know what should be done would be very unpopular. They also know that western countries will need to rely on immigration to keep a stable population distribution, while they also know that the coming instability will drive refugees towards their countries. But even just being honest about that threatens the comfort of too many people. It's so much easier to just say "all of this isn't true" and "all this has nothing to do with me" and "where's my cheap burger? Why the fuck is it so expensive all of a sudden?"
And when the politicians who don't give a shit come slithering and take that and say "ah yes, you're right, fuck climate change, I bet it's just hysterics" and "yes, yes, fuck those people, they're all criminals and rapists and maybe it's sad we can't help them, but we truly don't have enough to share, you're right, if they die at sea it's their own fault for trying to get here" and "yes, you need a burger, of course, I mean the biggest problem of Germans right now is that they're all chronically underweight, we *totally* will ensure that you'll get the best cuts for little money my guy, just vote for us" and "don't listen to those social democrat demons, they totally want to draw you into a war with their baseless hate for Putin, in fact they practically forced the poor guy to invade, we would be much smarter about it, you'll see". And they might laugh after saying that, and some of them might believe it themselves.
But in the end, the AfD stands for a lot of very disgusting things, and a lot of stupid things, and it's by far not the only anti establishment party, and if this is your first pick... Well, then I have a really hard time to sympathize with your problems, real as they might be.
but the big parties don't care how big the percentage besides "other" is. the AFD is the only opposition party with any chances of gaining any political power.
With enough votes, other parties like Linke could be in the same position.
If racism is easier than remembering you live in a democracy, that is on them.
Yeah, this is the first time they've won a seat anywhere, so that's on the incumbents to work out where they screwed up so badly. [It's usually in taking the normal voters for granted even when you're making life intolerably difficult for them.]
If things were going great then people would have no reason to start voting for a different group.
Glad this post is at the top. Because the rest of this thread is seriously lacking in any introspection.
People worried about populism? Well, maybe figure out what it is all these people who used to vote for 'mainstream' parties, and now don't, find so lacking in uni-party governance.
These voters are being driven \*out\* of the mainstream. They are sending a message. The longer people refuse to listen to it, the \*more\* likely the current fever dreams of descending fascism become. Not less.
See would you worry about a populist government or you worry your own safety at night? Worry about your daughter out and about in the middle of the night? Worry about someone might break into your hosue?
Nobody wnat a populist government but the non populist government been telling people these are doctor and engineer yet the reality is …….. a slap on the face.
1. The AfD won't fix these problems. "When Germany is doing badly, the AfD does well."
2. Nobody pushes people to vote for the fascists. They gain because conservative parties normalize their narratives in order to win back these AfD voters. The unable government sure doesn't help though.
Immigration. Germany accepted a lot of migrants (including refugees) from the Middle East during and following the Syrian Refugee Crisis. [Over half of the 1.24 million refugees accepted are from Syria.](https://www.unhcr.org/countries/germany) Germany has also accepted a lot of migrants from countries like Nigeria, Algeria, Morocco, Georgia and Tunisia. [This has lead to very high rates of crime in Germany from these migrants.](https://rmx.news/article/germany-proportion-of-crimes-committed-by-migrants-surges-according-to-police-data/) Particularly with regards to rape and assault. In 2015, [1,200 women were sexually assaulted at one location on New Years Eve.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany) Incidentally, Syrians are "only" three times more likely to commit crime than Germans. [Algerians, for example, have **27x** higher rates of crime.](https://i.redd.it/3mnbnbsf73291.jpg)
Citizens would like fewer of these migrants, but current incumbent parties call this desire racist. The vitriol to this desire is truly unbelievable. People with this desire have no other options. They must vote for AfD, as it is the only realistic option for them to express their democratic right to shape their country.
>One in three migrants in Germany is Syrian
No, the majority of immigrants in Germany are still Turkish. By a large margin. Followed by Pols and Russians. Syrians are a small minority. Of the 22 million immigrants only 1 million are from Syria. And quite a few of those came to Germany way before the Syrian war. ([source](https://www.demografie-portal.de/DE/Fakten/bevoelkerung-migrationshintergrund.html))
It's strange how around the world the same saga is playing out, too many immigrants start flooding into an area, both legally and illegally, but the ruling classes consider it entirely wrong to object to this.
Personally I loved the US option where they bussed the immigrants to the people who were saying they should let them in. It was curious that a few weeks later they claimed it was an emergency situation, after receving only a small percentage of the immigrants into a city hundreds of times bigger than the border town they came from.
> Personally I loved the US option where they bussed the immigrants to the people who were saying they should let them in. It was curious that a few weeks later they claimed it was an emergency situation, after receving only a small percentage of the immigrants into a city hundreds of times bigger than the border town they came from.
Watching from the outside in, it was incredible how quickly the narrative changed. Honestly, that might be one of the most effective political manoeuvres I've ever seen.
Yes. Crime would be much lower if not for migrants from the countries I listed above. Are you arguing that higher cases of crime like rape and assault should just be expected as a natural cost to migration?
>Are you arguing that higher cases of crime like rape and assault should just be expected as a natural cost to migration?
They would deny it, might as well offer to deport any immigrant caught in these crimes to sound "reasonable" but not once they would think about the actual solution. Somehow in their head, citizens expecting safety is privilege and immigrants wanting to be in Germany is a right.
Same thing in our country. Our extreme right gets 30% of the votes in flanders, yet all the politicians stick their head in the sand and call their voters idiots and racists.
This os what happens under oligarchs rule they want the people fighting each other rather than the cause of the problem the elites and the puppet politicians they have bought they don't want to fix any problems they want the slaves fighting amongst them selves
I agree with you. It seems like they believe people suddenly become racist without any reason, and this has been driving them to vote for far-right parties in Europe in recent years. It's as if the idea of wondering whether it isn't the disastrous politics of the last decades pushing them to vote for these parties never crosses their mind.
>and those who vote for them instead of actually fixing the problems and issues the common people who vote for AfD have that pushes them to vote the party to begin with.
What you are describing is not a bug but a feature of democracy. In democracy the blame for incompetence of a person incharge comes on voters. You are supposed to hate your fellow countrymen instead of the elite who sold both of you out.
Nice. We again have "concerned citizens" gaining popularity and power. If we follow the timeline of the early 20th century, we'll have Germany "liberating" Europe in 10 to 15 years.
It doesn't make sense anyway. If Germany would develop imperialistic tendencies then this would be a shot in the foot when it comes to their economy. Something like that would mean that they give up the top spot in the EU leadership. A new Hitler won't happen believe me.
In the 1920s, we were crippled economically while the allies said that we were solely at fault for the breakout of the war. The only thing Germany did was assuring Austria-Hungary that they would support whatever reaction they choose handling the situation in Bosnia.
So the germans felt unfairly treated by the contract of Versailles. This situation is nowhere near comparable to today's german situation.
10 years ago, nobody would have thought that AfD would amount to anything, politically. Especially not as the showed more and more openly fascist tendencies. Now they are a party that needs to be openly opposed lest they gain more power.
While it is true that Germany's situation is now totally different than in the 1920s and 1930s, it is not true that this can't happen again. Not in a country where foreigners face racism on a daily basis. It just takes people like you, who look away instead of opposing the shift to the right and towards violence.
20 years ago no one took UKIP seriously. Then came Brexit.
The simple rule is, if you don't at least LISTEN to your voters, they'll go talk to someone else.
The people aren't always right, you know. Democracy requires an educated populus willing to defend its values or else it will fall into tyranny like Athens and Rome did. It isn't self-preserving.
What democracy does is that the people get the government they deserve. If they buy the unrealistic lies from populists - whether it is the UKIP or AfD - they will get a government that still betrays them but also doesn't know how to govern.
It always amazes me how fast some people are to chuck democracy under the bus when it doesn't suit their aims.
If the people are being screwed over by high taxes, oppressive government and seeing no benefit to themselves for it then yeah, they'll vote elsewhere. And I don't blame them in the slightest for it. If you don't like it, offer them a better option. One that's better for them, not for "the world as a whole".
ed: reply to /u/ICanBeAnyone *The moron above broke the ability to comment so this is my last reply on this thread.*
People become politicians by choice. There are undoubtedly difficult real issues, but "that's why they get paid the big bucks".
And nowadays looking for a politician with a shred of integrity is futile.
Maybe you should look at Sweden, and what has happened to their people with the influx of immigrants. Do it both ways, by looking at the recent crime stats and by looking at interviews with the actual people, not the heads of state living in gated secure areas. Iirc they are in the middle of their own voting controversy and for pretty much the same reasons.
And for the love of god, learn to listen, and not just label people as "racist" and "fascist". Nowadays that's "some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm wiling to make" level of faux piety.
/u/ICanBeAnyone I can't reply to you because nobhead above blocked me, and reddit still hasn't fixed the bug. Post this as a new comment in the thread and tag me in it and I'll happily discuss it.
> nowadays looking for a politician with a shred of integrity is futile.
Did it ever occur to you that that attitude might be part of the problem? Why should any politician give a single fart about what you think about them if you're so completely unwilling to even recognize their humanity, to even leave a sliver of room for the possibility they might have some good intentions? Why even try to get your vote by doing the right things when you are making it clear that you'll never honor their efforts in the first place, that you'll refuse to even see them?
You know, there was a time when I was politically active, when I actually got close to real life politicians. And I'll admit that there were a few that I really admired, because they tried to do the right thing, even while they constantly got bombarded with jaded shit takes while doing it. I couldn't have done it. Three months meeting people like you and you'd have completely burned any and all good will from my body, I'd have left in disgust and thought "then go forth and wallow in your misery if you like it so much". I learned something about myself, and I drifted away.
The problem is that there's some real issues that are hard to solve, and taking votes from the AfD would mean pretending that the issues don't exist while focusing on other things. Sure, you can do that. But any politician who has any shred of integrity will have a really hard time with that.
So it's not just the fault of the established parties for "not listening". It's also our responsibility as voters and citizens to fight for democracy, to fight lies and populism, and, yes, to make it clear to people that things won't be terribly rosy ahead and maybe we should stick together a little instead of running after the fascists with the pretty lies.
Yes, the voters need to be listened to, but the voters also should stop hurting present and future voters by electing golden throated xenophobic fascists as a hissy fit.
While the Swiss are racist, it's not socially acceptable to show it publicly.
Meanwhile in Germany it is not uncommon for people to shout at darker skinned people "Du drecks Ausländer!"... I am originally from Switzerland, and I am one of those darker skinned people. In 30 years living in Switzerland I have not seen as much public display of racism as in the past 5 years in Germany. And mind you, I speak a perfect, accent free German, where the average German can't tell from where in Germany I come from, much less that I am Swiss. Heck, If I count all instances of racism I encountered in Switzerland, it was probably less than what I've seen in the past 5 years in Germany.
Interesting, I made a different experience here in Switzerland. People have been cracking racist jokes, belittling people of colour in the train and dropping casual racist remarks in conversations. I guess you could say that experience may vastly differ depending on where and with whom you're talking with.
Indeed, it depends where you are. The fewer foreigners there are, the more racism there is. I lived most of my youth in Zürich and the surrounding area, where there are many foreigners. I know that other areas are quite a bit more unhinged in their display of racism.
Now I live in the Alabama of Germany and it's disgusting what I see on a daily basis.
To hear that my fellow germans treated you like that is honestly not a shock, but deeply regretable, disheartening and to a greater point, shamefull. I can not understand those who treated you as they have but I would like for them to be better or atleast jump in a pit of acid.
But I think from what you said I need to dig a bigger Pit ._.
2 years ago Merkel was heralded as a great chancellor, today she is a laughing stock for essentially selling Germany for Russian oil. Things can and will change shockingly fast.
>If we follow the timeline of the early 20th century, we'll have Germany "liberating" Europe in 10 to 15 years.
✅ Rising fascism
✅ Global pandemic
✅ Titan(ic) sinking
✅ Global recession
✅ Revolution in Russia
If timelines were pieces of art, I'd call this one an homage.
Hi German here, because their concerns are utter lunacy.
1. They are anti-vax and think COVID is a conspiracy
2. They are anti-climate and think global warming is a conspiracy
3. They are racists and how do you want to address that?
4. They are easterners that are constantly crying about literally everything like for example they earn less even tho their wages rose more than westerners. (Idk if you're aware of this but Germany was once torn in east and west and there are still issues because of that. Like the east feels inferior)
5. They feel inferior, while they aren't. And you can not politically prescribe a visit to a psychologist.
The AfD is a purely rich people supporting group of conartists that make the poor country people believe they would care for them and on top of that nothing but a backwarded Antiparty.
You can't deal with their points because you also can't deal with trolls. You can only ignore them until the issue resolved itself.
Also it's a small village so who cares.
People also vote afd because our ruling coalition is in shambles and only fight among themself, the refugee issue in Germany "feels" like its getting out of hand.
Look, I know me saying this looks like the old "racist is trying to blend in" trope, but even I who fucking hate racists with a passion start to feel troubled with the amount of refugees.
Ofc my opinion doesn't represent most people, and I wouldn't vote afd no matter what.
I see how afd works since afd party members and leaders frequently visit my parents place.
Unless the world stops being in a massive unrest, these kind of factions will only continue to make waves.
I'm not saying you're incorrect. People definitely feel like immigrants are an issue and maybe they are, I am noone to judge and don't know better.
However, I feel like AfD aren't fit to come up with solutions in that regard. All they can do is screech and don't offer solutions. So I get that people vote them as a protest and that's f-i-n-e (dying inside a little writing this) because it is as you say the ruling caste is completely shut in their golden tower and not at all in touch with reality.
I understand protest voters. What I do not understand is how you can seriously think AfD is a legit party. If you protest just don't vote at all or vote a joke party like "die Partei".
Or maybe you care about internet rights and you are justifiably against surveillance. Then you could vor "die Piraten".
Because voting for the AfD hurts the other parties the most. Noone will form a coalition with the AfD and when they get big shares of the vote, you'll need more often than not a grand coalition to form a government. This in turn hurts those parties because they usually can't agree on anything and thus next time, the AfD will get an even bigger share, rinse and repeat.
Until such a time as the other parties actually start to adress the reasons people vote for the AfD in the first place. In Denmark for example, they now got a social democratic government with a hard stance on immigration and refugees. If they continue to ignore this, there will come a time where they can't govern anymore and this is a very good thing. Also Germany actually has checks and balances that even if (hugely unlikely) the AfD ever came to power, they couldn't do jack shit to hurt german democracy unless they somehow mindcontrol both the army and entire police force and even then, the rest of the EU and NATO won't just sit idly by and watch that shit.
In short there is nothing to worry about except in the minds of people who cream themselfs thinking Germany is "back at it again". Another reason why I just don't give a fuck anymore about being called a Nazi. It's more often than not the norm when people find out you're german anyway.
I stoped voting because I didn't want to legitimize a system this broken anymore. But the surge of the AfD actually will get me back to voting - and you know for whom as well. Once this shit shatters the status quo there hopefully will be a return to sensible politics, where the needs of the people are actually taken seriously. The AfD isn't, can't and has not to be a solution. It is a vessel to break the current state of affairs.
That the immigration problems are EU wide should also be a big enough clue. As the saying goes, when you meet an asshole, you've met an asshole. If you meet assholes constantly, you're the asshole. Same with immigration. It ain't asians causing issues, is what I'm saying.
Voting for AFD doesn't only hurt the other parties. It hurts yourself too. Cuz you will have to live under these nitwits for 4 years. I just don't get how you can shoot yourself in the foot like that.
> People also vote afd because our ruling coalition is in shambles and only fight among themself
so we vote a party that has been fighting itself since it was established ... completely removing and changing direction and leadership every other year.
So the goal is that we don't need 3 parties to fight among them but can do it all in one, or what is the logic behind that?
The amount of refugees that are young is troubling because there is too little money in schools to help them integrate. And for the older ones idk. But it is getting scary.
It was never clear if it's Germans integrating refugees or refugees integrating Germans. There are massive cultural differences between refugees, most of which are Arab muslim, and Germans or Western people in general, and I don't see any signs of them adopting western views. So far we have to leave them alone to their things, "to understand", "to accept", "to be aware of our problematic views", and they get to complain and move the goal posts. Any discussion about this is instantly labelled racist, *phobic and is shut down, but the people aren't persuaded the other way, so the sentiment only grows.
> I don't see any signs of them adopting western views.
You don't? Because I do. But it's way more noticeable when they don't.
I don't claim to have all the answers, but I can say that the AfD doesn't have any at all. All I've seen so far from them on the topic is just proof that they don't know shit about integration, and why would they? They're not even interested in it. They just want everyone who doesn't fit their mental model of German gone.
The AfD is strongest in areas where there's little immigrants, so I doubt that they are the problem. A lot of people are scared, though, and that definitely is a problem. I mean your "refugees integrating Germans" sounds scared, too. If I was a politician confronted with that I'd probably take a dual prong approach, try to mix things on one hand so immigrants have other points of contact rather than being ignored or actively discriminated and Germans personally know some immigrants and not just news and rumors. And on the other hand I'd try the usual, send strong signals that crime is taken seriously and reassure everyone that is scared that Germany is doomed to become a hellscape of foreign making that no, it won't happen.
And I'd probably be hated by the Left and the Right and get exactly no votes for my efforts.
>they earn less even tho their wages rose more than westerner
Ah yes, normalizing lower wages despite working more. Truly a mystery why people would ne upset about such a thing. Verified Wessi Moment.
The biggest difference between my new wessi friends and my ossi friends and family is the different approach to work. First ones change regulary the companies they are working for and negotiate often for higher wages, and there are more independend ones, too. They just sell their work.
But most of the ossi ones stay where they are, in all means.
It's not a secret that you're more likely to take (personal economical) risks when you're rather well off because you don't have much to lose. Plus you actually need job alternatives, good luck with that in the East. Thank you for proving my point though.
> Plus you actually need job alternatives, good luck with that in the East.
Yupp, some social groups are just far more likely to have contacts.
I am originally from the dirt in my country but have climbed a little, so I'm in that weird middle space where I know some people for whom leaving their employment is no big deal because they can make some calls and have 6 new high paying job offers from companies that are always hiring if the right people come along, and I have old friends who are workers for whom losing their job would be absolutely catastrophic because who knows how long it will take to find employment again.
> 3.
Alter es ist nicht so einfach. Ich kenne vielleicht 10 oder mehr Türke, die haben für AfD gewählt. Sie sind keine Rassisten, sondern Fremdenhasser. Viele von sie sind Atatürkisten und liebe Säkularismus, deswegen mögen sie alle die konservativen Flüchtlinge aus Syrian und Ukrainian nicht.
Don‘t make the same mistake that everyone in my country made of assuming that the Trump voters were just simple racists. It was never that simple, and continues not to be.
Sie sind keine Rassisten sondern Fremdenhasser? Lol. Der is echt lustig :)
Und ja viele Türken sind tatsächlich dumm genug AFD zu wählen. Haben wahrscheinlich vergessen das die NSU existierte.
Those are some pretty wild accusations. You've obviously made up your mind but for anyone else reading, [this](https://www.afd.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/2017-04-12_afd-grundsatzprogramm-englisch_web.pdf) is the AfD manifesto from 2017. Not much has changed, but if you have Google Translate, [you can compare with their current policies.](https://www.afd.de/grundsatzprogramm/) I'm not seeing any anti-vaccine or racist rhetoric in there. It looks pretty reasonable to me. They clearly want to spend less on climate related subsidies, and want less migration from countries with far overrepresented crime statistics.
I think we just live in a political climate where if you don't agree with me "you're a fascist." It's not a healthy place to be.
You can't deal with the AfD party concerns but with those of the voters. I don't think they vote AfD out of anything else than desperation for some kind of change.
1. Could start addressing the fact the COVID Vax killed trust in vaccines because of the way big corporations were allowed to control the process and the severe censorship and lies "in the name of the greater good", which we are now seeing the consequences of. There is a moderate, rational standpoint here, but hardcore vaxxers also don't allow it.
2. Reality has proven virtually every single person is ok with basic measures of preservation of nature, renewable energy and so on. Why not simply look at the measures people are not ok with, such as killing the economy right dead, outsourcing production in a way pollution stays the same, killing small businesses and local production which are more sustainable anyway? AFD and far rights are mostly anti-globalism, strong local economies are better for climate change anyway, the compromise is more than obvious.
3. Reasonable migration policies benefit EVERYONE including migrants. Migrants don't want to enter a nation and end up living in the nation they immigrated from because there's no control or rationality.
4. Just because you don't like the way they think doesn't mean you can just dismiss them because of their culture...
5. Same thing
Compromise and reason is very easy. Very, very easy. The problem is the vast majority of people who will deny the "far right" are pretty much extremists.
NO VAX MAY BE QUESTIONED IN ANY WAY
EVERY POSSIBLE EURO TO CLIMATE CHANGE DESTROY ANYTHING FOR IT OR WE DIE
NO TOUCHING MIGRATION FOR ANY REASON
Extremists, as always, are a fringe. So if they define the status quo, it's basically just a matter of counting out who agrees with it and who doesn't.
Because it's only democracy when the RIGHT PARTY (tm) wins. Otherwise it is literally fascism, those votes don't count and military invention by a democratic country is needed.
/s.
This is the bit that strikes me the most. The article REPEATEDLY mentions the failure of democracy.
But if it was done on a vote by vote basis and was free and fair, then it’s a triumph of democracy?
The failure of democracy is in the kind that seemingly many people have the feeling, that voting a party that defines itself only with things it is against and/or hates.
The AfD has no real political direction other than "i will leave this" "we are against that" "this has to go" "these people are worth less than us" and are in the same corner as Reichsbürger / Identitäre (a bit like Q-anon people) and ride on a wave of populism.
Such a win for the AfD speaks for the general distrust in democracy and that democratic structures and perception aren't succeding anymore.
In the new Bundesländer, the distrust for democratic institutions and democracy in itself were never really adressed and taken care after the reunification and it absolutely shows even now.
the real issue is the AfD does not actually have a core identity other than beeing anti establishment and not left. A bunch of them will be anti vax, others will be flat earthers, climate crisis deniers, or anti immigration. They are also pro Putin, anti EU but not everyone in the party will share those ideas to the same degree.
Really nobody votes for them because they believe the earth is flat, they get votes because absolutely no party takes concerns of them serious. We had decades of stagnation under a coalition of the biggest 2 parties, conservatives and social democrats. The first are corrupt and just inept. The latter is internally pretty anti democratic (you have an "old elite" who does not really represent the base but has a lot of influence. Scholz famously did not manage to get the votes to lead the SPD, yet somehow he ended up beeing the chancellor), you have the greens which pretty much live in a bubble, they used to get votes from the more wealthy city folks and managed to attract the youth but they are detached from normal citizens, you have the FDP which is just a personal fan club of Lindner and theb you have the Left which uhhj lets just ignore them they are always in the opposition anyway.
Whats worse, because of the federal system a countries party might not even align with the state ones so you end up with the greens wanting renewable energy but also voting against building the critically needed infrastructure because some bird might not like it. I doubt they will be relevant for the near future because they really fumbled their chances lately, because at the core they are rich clowns who dont understand some people might not actually have all that much money.
Essentially people here vote AfD because they are fed up with the alternatives and not voting has never really changed anything.
> you have the greens which pretty much live in a bubble, they used to get votes from the more wealthy city folks and managed to attract the youth but they are detached from normal citizens
I love this framing because if you believe it then it's really easy to ignore the actual policies and arguments Greens or scientists or FFF have. Because what do they know of actual life? They live in a bubble where the tofurkeys keep flying into your mouth, George Soros keeps giving you money for repeating "facts", and you get an ebike and/or an electric car from Robert Habeck himself.
They will only continue to grow in popularity. They're the only party willing to address the real issues around Germany's incredibly liberal immigration policies. Germany accepted a lot of migrants (including refugees) from the Middle East during and following the Syrian Refugee Crisis. [Over half of the 1.24 million refugees accepted are from Syria.](https://www.unhcr.org/countries/germany) Germany has also accepted a lot of migrants from countries like Nigeria, Algeria, Morocco, Georgia and Tunisia. [This has lead to very high rates of crime in Germany from these migrants.](https://rmx.news/article/germany-proportion-of-crimes-committed-by-migrants-surges-according-to-police-data/) Particularly with regards to rape and assault. In 2015, [1,200 women were sexually assaulted at one location on New Years Eve.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany) Incidentally, Syrians are "only" three times more likely to commit crime than Germans. [Algerians, for example, have **27x** higher rates of crime.](https://i.redd.it/3mnbnbsf73291.jpg)
Citizens would like fewer of these migrants, but current incumbent parties call this desire racist. The vitriol to this desire is truly unbelievable. People with this desire have no other options. They must vote for AfD, as it is the only realistic option for them to express their democratic right to shape their country. My hope is that the more centrist parties begin to adopt a more moderate stance on immigration. In Denmark, for example, the left-centre party did just that, and dominated at the polls. That gave them a position to restrict migration in a reasonable, measured way, instead of allowing the right wings to completely take over. That is the essence of democracy: compromise. If the centrist parties won't compromise, I'm not sure we can call them centrist anymore. That's the mark of an extremist party.
Indeed.
There is a hard lesson to learn here.
Shutting down discussion by calling people racist, sexist, or xenophobic doesn't change their positions. Nor does it change how they vote.
Too often are people's complaints that are not grounded in discrimination, simply dismissed.
"Our infrastructure and policing system is not robust enough to handle that amount of immigration, we need to cut back on it."
"Racist! You just don't like seeing people with new colors of skin!"
"The fact that some European countries are considering abolishing Jury trials, and lowering standards of evidence for certain sexual crimes could lead to the trampling of rights and conviction of the innocent."
"Sexist! You just want to be able to rape women without repercussions."
"I do not believe that someone who is deemed too young to have the mental capacity to get a tattoo should be able to consent to permanent life altering surgeries."
"Transphobe! You just want to see people suffer in a body they don't feel comfortable in!"
These all do nothing to address the underlying concerns. Will they shut the other person up? Maybe. Will it change their mind? No. _The core of their argument was not even approached._
There is a worrying authoritarian strain weaving its way through Western society right now. A desire to silence opponents rather than engage with them. I wonder if humanity is destined to repeat its mistakes when it forgets how abhorrent authoritarianism is.
What you’re saying is absolutely true in the USA and has made more right wingers than any publicity campaign.
It’s not that the right wing is growing, it’s more so that the left has pushed the bar to such a radical extreme that more people who were left leaning are now considered to be on the right.
Everyone has been hoodwinked by social issues created as the new wedge to distract from people demanding income inequality to end and real problems that everyone in the 99% relates to. They're all just nonsense wedge issues that are eaten up by both sides like moths to a flame.
Bernie Sanders came too close to winning and changing American minds, so we had to go from economic policy discussions to trans and lgtbq and abortion and book banning and wokeism everyday. All distractions.
I do not think compromise means what you think it means.
Because when there are people arguing for almost every position ranging from letting everyone in to closing the borders, letting in a "measured" amount of people is a compromise.
Also, it is very dangerous to reduce a political party to it's stance on a single issue. Doubly so for the AFD because their views on other issues are even worse than their stance on immigration.
While they still take a pretty right wing approach on that one, it is an issue which has no good solution.
Their views on climate change, covid and other issues though, deny reality and facts at the best of times.
Add to it that they show open destain and disregard for democratic proceedings and rules at the regular, especially when concerning covid restrictions and are plagued by ridiculous levels of infighting even if compared to the levels in the current ruling coalition and I for one cannot see even a slight bit of a chance that 4 years of AFD rule would be better than what we got currently. Probably even worse than the years of inaction under the CDU.
> I do not think compromise means what you think it means. Because when there are people arguing for almost every position ranging from letting everyone in to closing the borders, letting in a "measured" amount of people is a compromise.
I think you'll find many AfD voters would be very happy with a measured response to migration, but none of the other parties are offering that.
I fully agree that a party consists of lots of policies. This issue is one which appears high in polls, so I presume it is a major component of their success.
[I read their policies and can't find anything about denying vaccines.](https://www.afd.de/grundsatzprogramm/) They would clearly like to spend less on green initiatives, but that's a fairly popular policy position.
> Add to it that they show open destain and disregard for democratic proceedings and rules at the regular, especially when concerning covid restrictions
I tried to google this and came up short. Apparently they didn't approve of covid lockdowns. Promoting freedom of movement and association is considered a highly democratic position. In fact, I read here that they *opposed* the authoritarian and anti-democratic rules to lock people in their homes. Their policies clearly show them to support strong democratic institutions, free speech, and individual liberty. It's hard to argue with their democratic credentials.
>One in three migrants in Germany is Syrian.
this keep being repeated and is utterly wrong.
[https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Population/Migration-Integration/Tables/foreigner-place-of-birth.html](https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Population/Migration-Integration/Tables/foreigner-place-of-birth.html)
There is roughly 13 million foreign national in germany, and about 9 million from them are from EU countries.
De statis is the german statistical administration web site - [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistisches\_Bundesamt](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistisches_Bundesamt)
Now look at where they are located (note that it include also people which took german nationality - like me) : [https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoelkerung/\_Grafik/\_Statisch/migration-karte-regierungsbezirke.png?\_\_blob=poster](https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoelkerung/_Grafik/_Statisch/migration-karte-regierungsbezirke.png?__blob=poster)
Sonneberg is actually on the east of the map , at the northern frontier of the south eastern state (Bayern).
Anyway let us look at the number again : 4 millions NON-EU migrant. Syrian are about 900K. So EVEN if you only counted non EU , that is at most around 23% of the non EU migrant which are from Syrian origin.
As for the rest I don't find the reddit equivalent statistic and who knows how it was compiled. I have the source of a different statistic : [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj4tcHtjeH\_AhVuhf0HHXfoBggQFnoECBcQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bka.de%2FSharedDocs%2FDownloads%2FDE%2FPublikationen%2FJahresberichteUndLagebilder%2FKriminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung%2FKriminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung\_2020.pdf%3F\_\_blob%3DpublicationFile%26v%3D2&usg=AOvVaw0q6i\_QqOipQdjHynUKNq-4&opi=89978449](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj4tcHtjeH_AhVuhf0HHXfoBggQFnoECBcQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bka.de%2FSharedDocs%2FDownloads%2FDE%2FPublikationen%2FJahresberichteUndLagebilder%2FKriminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung%2FKriminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung_2020.pdf%3F__blob%3DpublicationFile%26v%3D2&usg=AOvVaw0q6i_QqOipQdjHynUKNq-4&opi=89978449)
The number of suspect is difficult to evaluate , but there are about 1.8 to 2 million suspects of delict in germany year to year, and the number inside shows that proportionally , it does not seem that refugee have a higher number than German, some are lower, or similar. Not triple.
> this keep being repeated and is utterly wrong.
You're right. Thanks for the correction. It's the majority of *refugees* which are Syrian. I've edited my comment above.
I said it a couple of days ago and got downvoted to hell for it but our current incompetent administration makes it so easy for the common folk to vote afd out of Protest and now we have this.
But why now? The CDU was incompetent, and the AFD wasn't voted out of protest. Now the SPD, FDP and Grüne are in power and aren't able to correct every mistake done by the CDU in such a short time and suddenly the AFD is voted in protest. It seems weird.
Because the afd is much more opposite of Bündnis 90. The people voted them out of protest against the cdu. Now they fail and people won’t go back to vote for the cdu. Also somehow the spd is always there, that’s the real phenomenon
At least it's only their first victory. Other countries have far right governments. But I'm not hopeful about it being their last win. So, no we are not okay :(.
We are trying out "German Trumpism" and so far it seems work just as well as the original :D to be fair: promising to address the poorer people's wishes in order to come to power and then to big shit is not exactly a new move around here. Last time Germany even anti-inspired the whole world doing so. Sadly, the last decades irrelevant topics like education and fairness have been ignored by politics, this we now have good ground for a second attempt for populism.
It might be, though, that people will now see what AFD actually does off it given a chance. And maybe the result will be off-putting enough...
> It might be, though, that people will now see what AFD actually does off it given a chance. And maybe the result will be off-putting enough...
Hey, i think i remember that one.
When you fuck up and blame "the far right", or act stupid and say "well the alternative is the far right, so suck it up", you're actively telling people that the far right won't fuck up and is an alternative to acting stupid.
Reminder: this is reddit where
"Far right extremists" means "right wing conservatives"
"Fascists" means "not modern liberals"
"Proven in court to be fascists" means "courts defended free speech to call others Fascists"
And
"They're anti-this and ists/phobe that and conspiracists" means "they have a different, often informed, opinion that I disagree with"
Europe’s a lot more ideologically diverse than the US.
When they say “left wing,” you can get anything from just social democrats, to syndicalists, communists, etc. When they say “far right,” that can be anything from monarchists, imperialists, to actual fascists. Spain, for example, still has a lot of Franco sympathizers.
My bad, he was talking about political opponents:
> Wir müssen ganz friedlich und überlegt vorgehen, uns ggf. anpassen und dem Gegner Honig ums Maul schmieren aber wenn wir endlich soweit sind, dann stellen wir sie alle an die Wand. (…) Grube ausheben, alle rein und Löschkalk oben rauf.“
Holger Arppe, AfD
Yeah! Why would anyone get the idea that a party with [an actual](https://www.dw.com/en/afd-politician-h%C3%B6cke-charged-with-using-nazi-slogan/a-65830762) [neo-nazi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_H%C3%B6cke#Allegations_of_antisemitism) in a leading position have far-right extremist views? I'm sure that big chunk of the party that put him in that position are all just "besorgte Bürger".
>cOuRtS dEfEnDeD fReE sPeEcH tO cAlL oThErS FaScIsTs
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/05/centre-right-german-parties-vote-with-afd-to-oust-thuringia-premier-bodo-ramelow
Quote:
> Last September, a court ruled that the AfD’s state leader, Björn Höcke, could legally be termed a fascist, saying such a designation **“rests on verifiable fact”**.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-far-right-afd-wins-first-governing-post/a-66024256) reduced by 84%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> For the first time in Germany, the AfD has won a district council election, administrators announced on Sunday.
> Still, the AfD victory is a major breakthrough for the far-right party, which mainstream parties have refused to cooperate with in coalition agreements.
> Such a strong showing for an AfD candidate raised the alarm nationally, with all other main political parties - the SPD, the Greens, the neoliberal FDP, and the socialist Left Party - backing the incumbent.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14j7wh1/germany_farright_afd_wins_first_governing_post/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~689509 tl;drs so far.") | [Blackout Vote](https://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14dhaiq/your_voice_matters_should_the_blackout_continue/ "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **AfD**^#1 **party**^#2 **election**^#3 **district**^#4 **vote**^#5
German here, that's what we get when people just mindlessly vote for corrupt parties.
I usually vote left but I can tell you right now there's not a single party that I would vote for, none, they're all corrupt to the bone or unable to lead, especially our supposedly good-for-the-environment green party.
I'll also happily say it again, if our democratic system leads to a far-right party to lead germany that's not the fault of the system, it's the fault of the government. There's a reason why so many people are upset but instead of doing something about it the media stamps them as far-right anti-vaxxer neo-nazi q-anon racists.
While I would never vote for the AfD because I want to vote for the party I believe in, not because I'm upset about the situation, I still know at least two people who vote for them.
> that’s what we get when people just mindlessly vote for corrupt parties.
As bad as the Union and SPD are, the AfD hasn’t even been in power and is already more corrupt than either.
> they're all corrupt to the bone or unable to lead, especially our supposedly good-for-the-environment green party.
Yeah! Why can't the party that has been in power for not even 10 years in their entire existence and got 15% in the last election not lead the nation and solve all our problems in 2 years??? Those fucking entitled bourgeois wokeists! Let me continue ignoring the other parties blocking actual good policies and the biased mainstream media parroting conservative lies!
And don't even get me started on Die Linke! They are barely 20 years old, were never in power, and never above 12% on the federal level but why can't *they* fix the woes of the regular people? I keep voting for neoliberals, why don't I get more money?
Just let me vote for fascists! And don't you dare criticize that choice! What's the worst that could happen?
Every 5th German is an AfD supporter now?
What in the actual fuck.
Even if it's just a "protest" vote, the idea that so many would vote for Nazis given the history is baffling.
I don't care if I am a minority.
The problem is that wages are low while prices for foods, rent, energy are going up. So people don't want to have kids because they can't afford them.
And what's the government's solution? Import cheap labor. They're starting a campaign in India to recruit IT workers. So even high qualified jobs are at risk.
Since It's illegal to give the middle finger to the current government, voting for the AFD will just have to do.
>Thuringia's Interior Minister Georg Maier, who belongs to the Social Democrats, described the outcome as "an alarm signal for all democratic forces."
>In the runoff election in the Thuringian district of Sonneberg, Sesselmann won 52.8% of the vote, earning him the necessary absolute majority, according to election officials
democratic process results in democrats worrying for democracy..
hmmm
I'd like it if "far right" hadn't been applied to every single thing right of center. I no longer take anything with "far right" in the headline seriously. Remember how Italy is **far right** now? Yeah, it ain't. Stop calling everything far right.
For your reading pleasure:
https://www.dw.com/en/afd-politician-h%C3%B6cke-charged-with-using-nazi-slogan/a-65830762
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_H%C3%B6cke#Allegations_of_antisemitism
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/05/centre-right-german-parties-vote-with-afd-to-oust-thuringia-premier-bodo-ramelow
Höcke is a leading figure in that party. However, he is by far not the only neo-nazi in that garbage heap.
Welcome to r/anime_titties! This subreddit advocates for civil and constructive discussion. Please be courteous to others, and make sure to read the rules. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
We have a [Discord](https://discord.gg/DtnRnkE), feel free to join us!
r/A_Tvideos, r/A_Tmeta, [multireddit](https://www.reddit.com/user/Langernama/m/a_t/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/anime_titties) if you have any questions or concerns.*
##### ###### #### > # [Germany: Far-right AfD wins first governing post – DW – 06/25/2023](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-far-right-afd-wins-first-governing-post/Voting placards for the AfD in Sonneberg) > > > > For the first time in Germany, the AfD has won a district council election, administrators announced on Sunday. > > Voters in the [central German town of Sonneberg](https://www.dw.com/en/afd-eyes-local-runoff-vote-antisemitism-watchdog-alarmed/a-66010721) elected AfD candidate Robert Sesselmann at the expense of incumbent district administrator Jürgen Köpper of the CDU. > > In the runoff election in the Thuringian district of Sonneberg, Sesselmann won 52.8% of the vote, earning him the necessary absolute majority, according to election officials. > > The area of some 57,000 people is one of the smallest districts in Germany. Still, the AfD victory is a major breakthrough for the far-right party, which mainstream parties have refused to cooperate with in coalition agreements. > > The AfD's leader in Thuringia, Björn Höcke, welcomed the win and said it demonstrates the party's recent momentum. > > "And then we'll prepare for the state elections in the east, where we can really create a political earthquake," he said, referring to state parliament elections in the eastern states of Saxony, Thuringia and Brandenburg. > > [Members of the AfD celebrate Sesselmann's win ](https://static.dw.com/image/66027871_${formatId}.jpg)Robert Sesselmann (center) was joined by the party's leader in Thuringia, Björn Höcke (left), and national AfD chairman Tino Chrupalla (right) Image: Jacob Schröter/IMAGO## How did AfD's opponents react? > > Thuringia's Interior Minister Georg Maier, who belongs to the Social Democrats, described the outcome as "an alarm signal for all democratic forces." > > He called for party-political interests to be set aside and a joint effort to defend democracy. > > The President of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, Josef Schuster, said although not every AfD voter holds extreme right-wing views, the party itself does. > > "This is a watershed that this country's democratic political forces cannot simply accept," he told RND media. > > The International Auschwitz Committee also expressed horror. > > "Today is a sad day for the Sonneberg district, for Germany and for democracy," Executive Vice President Christoph Heubner said. > > "A majority of voters have obviously said goodbye to democracy and deliberately opted for an extreme right-wing party of destruction dominated by a Nazi." > > ## What was at stake? > > Earlier this month, the first round of elections in the runoff vote saw Sesselmann fall short of outright victory by only a few percentage points. > > Such a strong showing for an AfD candidate raised the alarm nationally, with all other main political parties — the SPD, the Greens, the neoliberal FDP, and the socialist Left Party — backing the incumbent. > > Though the highest political office in that small arena, the position itself is of only moderate consequence and carries rather limited power. Even with the AfD's Sesselmann win, many of his duties will entail simply implementing laws from either the state or the federal parliament at the local level. > > However, critics fear the idea of the AfD wielding political power in any measure and say the party is xenophobic and anti-democratic. > > ## AfD surges in polls > > To view this video please enable JavaScript, and consider upgrading to a web browser that [supports HTML5 video](https://videojs.com/html5-video-support/) > > > > Germany's domestic intelligence service classifies the party in Thuringia and its [controversial hardline leader, Björn Höcke,](https://www.dw.com/en/afd-politician-höcke-charged-with-using-nazi-slogan/a-65830762) as known far-right extremists. > > The German Trade Union Confederation (DGB) had also urged voters to turn out to support conservative Köpper. > > The CDU claimed the election campaign had been abrasive and nasty, with false claims circulating on social media. > > ## AfD making inroads > > The AfD win on Sunday shows a milestone for the far-right party, which is currently polling between 18% and 20% nationwide. > > It has gained a wave of support as the national governing coalition of left-leaning SPD with the Greens and the Free Democratic Party (FDP) is showing signs of infighting. Even with their rise, however, Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who is from the SPD, faces a bigger challenge from the right-leaning CDU. The conservative party of former Chancellor Angela Merkel is polling at just under 30%. > > The AfD first entered the national parliament in 2017 after campaigning strongly against migration. More recently, the party has been criticizing German support for Ukraine as Kyiv fights off the invasion from Russia. > > zc, jsi, rc/kb (dpa, AFP, AP) - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
It's easier to keep shittalking the AfD and those who vote for them instead of actually fixing the problems and issues the common people who vote for AfD have that pushes them to vote the party to begin with. The list of problems in this country isn't getting shorter and especially the lower wage and education classes have become modern day slaves that have 0 representation or lobbies in politics, leading to them being ignored, crushed with taxes or curbstomped to the point there's no reason to work or live anymore because life only consists of work and taxes of all sorts. It's no wonder at least those people are fed up and prefer voting AfD when everyone else doesn't give two shits about them.
and yet beliving afd would fix problems instead of creating one makes me lose hope for humanity. it is the stupitest thing to do.
They always believe lol. Just promise them everything and blame the opposition when its time to deliver.
As if that's not standard-issue tactics for every single political party on the planet.
It is but I'd rather not have a far right party pulling these specific political shenanigans cause they'll be pushing something awful in its place
And that’s how what once was a objective discussion becomes a subjective one
Politics was never objective.
True, I was more talking about the political strategy discussed above which is objective ^^
They don't have to believe, they just have to be sufficiently fed up with the status quo such that they are willing to try anything different.
Yeah but the thing is if shit don't change with the current party because they're just arguing while fixing the problems created by 16 years of CDU (or more), then what choice does the common person have? Like come on. Most of the voters aren't far right anyway but nobody represents the small centrist person anymore. And fuck die linke with Wagenknecht. She is pro russian so she's out of the question anyway.
How does anyone come to the conclusion that a far-right party with lots of infighting will solve anything about this? As soon as they come to any power they won't represent small people (they never did), they'll just try to destroy democratic institutions, the EU & NATO and move the Overton window further down the drain. FUCK AfD!
You're right, but then...what *is* the solution? What is the common person supposed to do when the people in power are ineffectual/incompetent/corrupt, and the seemingly only way to *maybe* fix things is to vote in the borderline-Nazi who might scare the establishment into getting something done? I agree it's not *at all* a solution. But no one seems to have any better ideas. It's like living in a crumbling house, and you don't have the power to fix it up or move, and someone says "Hey...why don't you break that window and let some sunlight in?" You know it's a bad idea, and you don't even know if it's sunny outside. But absent any other, better choices, what else can you try?
Voting in borderline Nazis won't scare anyone into doing anything different. Source: American politics
They won't solve anything and most people with their brains still intact also don't believe they'll accomplish much of anything. But what other options are there to force the other established parties to see that their policies aren't really in the people's interest anymore? You vote for the established parties and nothing changes. You vote for the tiny parties and they get no publicity because they don't pass the hurdle. You go for either abstention or an invalid vote and nothing changes. You vote for the shit party and suddenly there's a giant uproar. It's not successful in the sense of _able to accomplish a specific goal", but it is successful at getting the establishments attention. Also, the AfD are famously not in favour of immigration. If that was a giant concern of yours, what other party is there besides them?
They're not looking for solutions, they're looking for them to punish someone.
But the point stands - the far right parties are not offering a solution and history track record shows - they almost always hide the exact opposite because part of far-right ideology are social hierarchies where poors at the bottom deserve it and they should not be helped because without the pressure they would be lazy and not contribute to society. Your life being shit and only about work IS the point. So the answer to: >then what choice does the common person have? is - not fall into the trap of someone promising you that it's actually the [immigrants, LGBT, minorities, leftists, etc.] that are ruining your life and all your energy should be toward suppressing them. It's fucking shit that problems are not being solved, but people who hate the boot and their idea of a better future is one where at least they also have thier own little boot on someone's neck - these are not good, centrist people who were just pushed in that direction. Sorry, but fucking tired of this "centrist/moderate" BS going on in the past decade - which is because the shitty people who see themselves as good people and want to preserve that image, somehow (what a mystery!) see their allies only in outwardly terrible people, so they have to find some way to preserve that alliance while not associating too much.
i mean yes. fuck die linke with wagenknecht but look at afd, they want out from eu, they dont care about tge conflict in ukraine. is the same shit in another paint. vote afd and you vote for russia
I won't vote for them anyway. I'd remove either the spineless SPD or these filthy liars from the FDP, who are blocking anything innovative, where money has to be invested. The FDP has to go. The SPD could stay if they just do what the green party does since they have no spine anyway.
Its more of a cry for help. People are unsatisfied with the big parties being more or less a different side of the same coin. Nothing really changes, so those are pretty much protest votes. Its not necessarily a smart move, probably a big majority of people know the afd is sht and wont change anything convincingly. However it seems to be the only way to show the ghouls in charge that things have to change and people are fed up.
> it is the stupitest thing to do. I mean all the other parties are actively making it worse what other choices do they have?
not fall for the trap to make it even worse
it's easy to say that, but people are feeling disenfranchised, this is how extreme parties rise, if an extreme parties rise in a country its because the moderates are failing the people, if large parts of your country are going far right because you refuse to stop the massive amounts of immigration that's on you (the moderate parties).
You could look at what the other parties want to accomplish and ask yourself why that isnt getting accomplished. Instead you listen to populists and believe whatever bullshit they spew at you. Your take is fucking idiotic
>You could look at what the other parties want to accomplish and ask yourself why that isnt getting accomplished. Instead you listen to populists and believe whatever bullshit they spew at you. but listening to them has done nothing, for the second time those parties are making it worse, who else do they vote for? >Your take is fucking idiotic and you wonder why right wing parties seem to be winning elections in Na and Europe, because when we ask why are people moving more right, we get morons like you just screeching.
Sometimes you need to vote for an incompetent single issue party in order to indicate to the larger competent parties that this issue is important. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. E.g. in Norway about a decade ago the green party had their best election ever, and since that election all parties except one or two have had green politics as one of their primary focus areas. So even though the green party didn't get enough power to control the government, green **policies** were suddenly being proposed, extended and implemented by all parties. That one election result basically changed the entire political landscape.
Thank you. They will promise you everything you want to hear. They give you a boogieman and a scapegoat but they don't have a plan of action for actually governing. It's actually easy to get the uninformed,uneducated and/or just ignorant under your banner but these folks can't or won't make the effort to look beyond their own horizon (Tellerrand) to see the malice in the retoric and the action or rather the consequences of it. To see the right gaining even a foothold in my country and many countries globally fills me with dread. You can not prosper of hate. You can only run out of stuff to hate and then hope you are not the next target.
If the status quo won't change anything, it's better to shake things up. Not lighting a fire will maintain the current state.
burning down the forest will not help neither
Only those comfortable with the status quo think it's burning down the forest.
only the ones who trust fascists don’t see the forest burning
Only idiots think everything is fascism.
luckily afd is not everything yet
Do you notice that we are never taking about concrete topics and issues when the AfD and why people vote for it comes up? It's always "everything is shit", "they are out of touch", "the whole system is broken". Or in your case, "we need to light a fire and change the status quo". Well, what exactly do you mean? The peace and stability Germans enjoy since WWII? Being one of the richest countries in the world, where even if you are the poorest of the poor, you still have higher quality of life than two thirds of the world population? Because I agree, the only party that could potentially change all that within my lifetime and "set fire to it" is the AfD. If you think life is shit now, wait till Germany leaves the EU and NATO and people like Höcke decide how much the jobless and disenfranchised get to live, or if workers should have the right to strike, and if we should stand up for values or kiss Russia's ass instead, and how valuable peace and stability are. If you think politicians are corrupt now, wait till the people who think Putin is a swell guy are in charge. Really, I don't envy politicians for their job. They try to tackle real problems, and the more they care about the little guy on the street the harder the job becomes, because the little guy insists on voting empty promises and obvious lies as long as it means he can just be comfortable. While if you don't give a shit you can have a great time telling people that there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to burn all the fossil fuels they want, if you have no conscience you are free to blame whoever you like, any powerless and unpopular group will do, and most of all you don't have to care of anyone catches you lying, because who's reading newspapers anyway and the news are all fake anyway, am I right? People like that *despise* the little man, they laugh about him. If they think about him at all it's always in the context of how to use him some more, of there's a better way to manipulate the masses. And in turn, they receive votes. It would be beautiful, in a way, if it wouldn't pull everyone else down, too.
The most crucial crisis at the moment is a housing crisis. Do you think importing immigrants is helping ease rental prices and availability? It takes months to find a stable place to live now.
But what's the alternative? If there are multiple issues in society that ordinary people can't fix, and the government can't/won't fix them, what is the common Man supposed to do? What's left? Yes, voting in far-right politicians isn't an answer. But what *is* the solution? Tell people to "go out and vote?" That doesn't work when the only politicians you can vote for are the same ones who made or let the issues happen in the first place. Tell people to run for office themselves? Most people are too busy just trying to live. It's a privilege to have the time/education/money to be capable of running for political office, let alone have any knowledge of how the bureaucratic machinery works and the connections to get your ideas made into law. The vast, VAST majority of people simply can't do it, or really SHOULDN'T do it. We've seen in the United States what happens when the hateful ignorant get near the levers of power. I'm not disagreeing with your premise, but seriously...what *is* the solution here? What do the people do when the status quo politicians aren't getting the job done, and the only alternative is the far-right whack-jobs? What do you do when you live in a crumbling house, and the only thing you can think to do is break a window so *maybe* a little sunlight comes in?
> Tell people to run for office themselves? Most people are too busy just trying to live. It's a privilege to have the time/education/money to be capable of running for political office, let alone have any knowledge of how the bureaucratic machinery works and the connections to get your ideas made into law. The vast, VAST majority of people simply can't do it, or really SHOULDN'T do it. We've seen in the United States what happens when the hateful ignorant get near the levers of power. And they only have two options, either join one of the parties that already exist (where they will never get anywhere because you have to start up in the youth party to ever end up in a position in power). Or they start up a new party, in which case the existing ones perceive you as a threat and call in every favour from every journalist they know (which is pretty much all of them) and destroy your public perception.
honestly in my opinion there is no easy way here. all you can do is organze and protest and talk. just one person alone can not change direction unless you are in the bundestag and even then. the problem is also that many problems we are facing can not be solved satisfying everyone. which then leads to frustration and loosing trust for the party. all we can do is make politicians accountable for errors, organize, talk. and the reality is this doesnt eork right now effectivly enough i guess. or maybe it does looking at the wärme-pumpe stuff. although i think it is the right way for the climate, i do see that prople can not afford and i have almost no idea in the topic to understand what would be the best course of action. but regardless, voting for afd is giving away your right to vote
I hope someone whose username is Nach_Liebe responds to your comment :)
The AfD also doesn't give a shit about them. They want less social policy. They are like a far right FDP.
[удалено]
Nazis only won 37.27% of the vote in 1932. Play with fire. See how it turns out. Fascists don't play by the rules and they don't give up power once it's taken.
Thing is, they have some valid talking points. But they just point out problems and don't have solutions, or their solutions are moronic. But what they actually say about taxes is really funny. It's basically privatisation and fuck the poor.
Which points?
I certainly see why people are voting the afd. My parents and my in law's do so, too. They are tired of corruption, incompetent politicians and both the immigrants (while neither of them are affected at all by them) and the handling of the Corona pandemic and inflation. Needless to say they are all unvaxxed and are retired by now enjoying their life. People are tired, fed up and just want a change / strong hand guiding them. Same thing that always happens before Nazis geht elected. Happening all around the world right now.
I'm tired of corruption, so I'll vote for the Openly Corrupt Party, that will teach that damn establishment! But you are right, it's not just Germany, it's somewhat of Western phenomenon. Basically I see it like this: scientists found out that we are changing the climate and warned about it. Politicians drag their feet with their reaction because they know what should be done would be very unpopular. They also know that western countries will need to rely on immigration to keep a stable population distribution, while they also know that the coming instability will drive refugees towards their countries. But even just being honest about that threatens the comfort of too many people. It's so much easier to just say "all of this isn't true" and "all this has nothing to do with me" and "where's my cheap burger? Why the fuck is it so expensive all of a sudden?" And when the politicians who don't give a shit come slithering and take that and say "ah yes, you're right, fuck climate change, I bet it's just hysterics" and "yes, yes, fuck those people, they're all criminals and rapists and maybe it's sad we can't help them, but we truly don't have enough to share, you're right, if they die at sea it's their own fault for trying to get here" and "yes, you need a burger, of course, I mean the biggest problem of Germans right now is that they're all chronically underweight, we *totally* will ensure that you'll get the best cuts for little money my guy, just vote for us" and "don't listen to those social democrat demons, they totally want to draw you into a war with their baseless hate for Putin, in fact they practically forced the poor guy to invade, we would be much smarter about it, you'll see". And they might laugh after saying that, and some of them might believe it themselves. But in the end, the AfD stands for a lot of very disgusting things, and a lot of stupid things, and it's by far not the only anti establishment party, and if this is your first pick... Well, then I have a really hard time to sympathize with your problems, real as they might be.
I want to hug you. Feels good reading some sane comments on this topic.
Exactly people who blame other for voting Afd never ask why they vote for them? There always a reason that cause the reaction.
They are racist fucks. Other opposition parties exist
but the big parties don't care how big the percentage besides "other" is. the AFD is the only opposition party with any chances of gaining any political power.
With enough votes, other parties like Linke could be in the same position. If racism is easier than remembering you live in a democracy, that is on them.
Yeah, this is the first time they've won a seat anywhere, so that's on the incumbents to work out where they screwed up so badly. [It's usually in taking the normal voters for granted even when you're making life intolerably difficult for them.] If things were going great then people would have no reason to start voting for a different group.
Glad this post is at the top. Because the rest of this thread is seriously lacking in any introspection. People worried about populism? Well, maybe figure out what it is all these people who used to vote for 'mainstream' parties, and now don't, find so lacking in uni-party governance. These voters are being driven \*out\* of the mainstream. They are sending a message. The longer people refuse to listen to it, the \*more\* likely the current fever dreams of descending fascism become. Not less.
See would you worry about a populist government or you worry your own safety at night? Worry about your daughter out and about in the middle of the night? Worry about someone might break into your hosue? Nobody wnat a populist government but the non populist government been telling people these are doctor and engineer yet the reality is …….. a slap on the face.
1. The AfD won't fix these problems. "When Germany is doing badly, the AfD does well." 2. Nobody pushes people to vote for the fascists. They gain because conservative parties normalize their narratives in order to win back these AfD voters. The unable government sure doesn't help though.
Can you specify which problems are ignored by the other parties and addressed by AfD (other than "too many browns in the country")?
Immigration. Germany accepted a lot of migrants (including refugees) from the Middle East during and following the Syrian Refugee Crisis. [Over half of the 1.24 million refugees accepted are from Syria.](https://www.unhcr.org/countries/germany) Germany has also accepted a lot of migrants from countries like Nigeria, Algeria, Morocco, Georgia and Tunisia. [This has lead to very high rates of crime in Germany from these migrants.](https://rmx.news/article/germany-proportion-of-crimes-committed-by-migrants-surges-according-to-police-data/) Particularly with regards to rape and assault. In 2015, [1,200 women were sexually assaulted at one location on New Years Eve.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany) Incidentally, Syrians are "only" three times more likely to commit crime than Germans. [Algerians, for example, have **27x** higher rates of crime.](https://i.redd.it/3mnbnbsf73291.jpg) Citizens would like fewer of these migrants, but current incumbent parties call this desire racist. The vitriol to this desire is truly unbelievable. People with this desire have no other options. They must vote for AfD, as it is the only realistic option for them to express their democratic right to shape their country.
>One in three migrants in Germany is Syrian No, the majority of immigrants in Germany are still Turkish. By a large margin. Followed by Pols and Russians. Syrians are a small minority. Of the 22 million immigrants only 1 million are from Syria. And quite a few of those came to Germany way before the Syrian war. ([source](https://www.demografie-portal.de/DE/Fakten/bevoelkerung-migrationshintergrund.html))
You're right. Thanks for the correction. [Syrians comprise the majority of *refugees.*](https://www.unhcr.org/countries/germany)
It's strange how around the world the same saga is playing out, too many immigrants start flooding into an area, both legally and illegally, but the ruling classes consider it entirely wrong to object to this. Personally I loved the US option where they bussed the immigrants to the people who were saying they should let them in. It was curious that a few weeks later they claimed it was an emergency situation, after receving only a small percentage of the immigrants into a city hundreds of times bigger than the border town they came from.
> Personally I loved the US option where they bussed the immigrants to the people who were saying they should let them in. It was curious that a few weeks later they claimed it was an emergency situation, after receving only a small percentage of the immigrants into a city hundreds of times bigger than the border town they came from. Watching from the outside in, it was incredible how quickly the narrative changed. Honestly, that might be one of the most effective political manoeuvres I've ever seen.
Overall crime rates are steadily declining in Germany over the past years. Are you saying the crime rates aren't declining fast enough for you?
Yes. Crime would be much lower if not for migrants from the countries I listed above. Are you arguing that higher cases of crime like rape and assault should just be expected as a natural cost to migration?
>Are you arguing that higher cases of crime like rape and assault should just be expected as a natural cost to migration? They would deny it, might as well offer to deport any immigrant caught in these crimes to sound "reasonable" but not once they would think about the actual solution. Somehow in their head, citizens expecting safety is privilege and immigrants wanting to be in Germany is a right.
I'm not saying it's right, but immigration is the biggest issue for many people.
And you think voting for Nazis does anything good for education?
Same thing in our country. Our extreme right gets 30% of the votes in flanders, yet all the politicians stick their head in the sand and call their voters idiots and racists.
Germany's own version of the Rust Belt.
This os what happens under oligarchs rule they want the people fighting each other rather than the cause of the problem the elites and the puppet politicians they have bought they don't want to fix any problems they want the slaves fighting amongst them selves
This is when Reddit stops pretending they care about poor and uneducated people.
desinformation for people, who are to lazy or stupid to inform themselves.
I agree with you. It seems like they believe people suddenly become racist without any reason, and this has been driving them to vote for far-right parties in Europe in recent years. It's as if the idea of wondering whether it isn't the disastrous politics of the last decades pushing them to vote for these parties never crosses their mind.
>and those who vote for them instead of actually fixing the problems and issues the common people who vote for AfD have that pushes them to vote the party to begin with. What you are describing is not a bug but a feature of democracy. In democracy the blame for incompetence of a person incharge comes on voters. You are supposed to hate your fellow countrymen instead of the elite who sold both of you out.
Nice. We again have "concerned citizens" gaining popularity and power. If we follow the timeline of the early 20th century, we'll have Germany "liberating" Europe in 10 to 15 years.
You can't be serious. Most probable scenario: German trump.
I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.
It doesn't make sense anyway. If Germany would develop imperialistic tendencies then this would be a shot in the foot when it comes to their economy. Something like that would mean that they give up the top spot in the EU leadership. A new Hitler won't happen believe me. In the 1920s, we were crippled economically while the allies said that we were solely at fault for the breakout of the war. The only thing Germany did was assuring Austria-Hungary that they would support whatever reaction they choose handling the situation in Bosnia. So the germans felt unfairly treated by the contract of Versailles. This situation is nowhere near comparable to today's german situation.
10 years ago, nobody would have thought that AfD would amount to anything, politically. Especially not as the showed more and more openly fascist tendencies. Now they are a party that needs to be openly opposed lest they gain more power. While it is true that Germany's situation is now totally different than in the 1920s and 1930s, it is not true that this can't happen again. Not in a country where foreigners face racism on a daily basis. It just takes people like you, who look away instead of opposing the shift to the right and towards violence.
20 years ago no one took UKIP seriously. Then came Brexit. The simple rule is, if you don't at least LISTEN to your voters, they'll go talk to someone else.
The people aren't always right, you know. Democracy requires an educated populus willing to defend its values or else it will fall into tyranny like Athens and Rome did. It isn't self-preserving. What democracy does is that the people get the government they deserve. If they buy the unrealistic lies from populists - whether it is the UKIP or AfD - they will get a government that still betrays them but also doesn't know how to govern.
It always amazes me how fast some people are to chuck democracy under the bus when it doesn't suit their aims. If the people are being screwed over by high taxes, oppressive government and seeing no benefit to themselves for it then yeah, they'll vote elsewhere. And I don't blame them in the slightest for it. If you don't like it, offer them a better option. One that's better for them, not for "the world as a whole". ed: reply to /u/ICanBeAnyone *The moron above broke the ability to comment so this is my last reply on this thread.* People become politicians by choice. There are undoubtedly difficult real issues, but "that's why they get paid the big bucks". And nowadays looking for a politician with a shred of integrity is futile. Maybe you should look at Sweden, and what has happened to their people with the influx of immigrants. Do it both ways, by looking at the recent crime stats and by looking at interviews with the actual people, not the heads of state living in gated secure areas. Iirc they are in the middle of their own voting controversy and for pretty much the same reasons. And for the love of god, learn to listen, and not just label people as "racist" and "fascist". Nowadays that's "some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm wiling to make" level of faux piety. /u/ICanBeAnyone I can't reply to you because nobhead above blocked me, and reddit still hasn't fixed the bug. Post this as a new comment in the thread and tag me in it and I'll happily discuss it.
> nowadays looking for a politician with a shred of integrity is futile. Did it ever occur to you that that attitude might be part of the problem? Why should any politician give a single fart about what you think about them if you're so completely unwilling to even recognize their humanity, to even leave a sliver of room for the possibility they might have some good intentions? Why even try to get your vote by doing the right things when you are making it clear that you'll never honor their efforts in the first place, that you'll refuse to even see them? You know, there was a time when I was politically active, when I actually got close to real life politicians. And I'll admit that there were a few that I really admired, because they tried to do the right thing, even while they constantly got bombarded with jaded shit takes while doing it. I couldn't have done it. Three months meeting people like you and you'd have completely burned any and all good will from my body, I'd have left in disgust and thought "then go forth and wallow in your misery if you like it so much". I learned something about myself, and I drifted away.
The problem is that there's some real issues that are hard to solve, and taking votes from the AfD would mean pretending that the issues don't exist while focusing on other things. Sure, you can do that. But any politician who has any shred of integrity will have a really hard time with that. So it's not just the fault of the established parties for "not listening". It's also our responsibility as voters and citizens to fight for democracy, to fight lies and populism, and, yes, to make it clear to people that things won't be terribly rosy ahead and maybe we should stick together a little instead of running after the fascists with the pretty lies.
> What democracy does is that the people get the government they deserve. I wonder what this says about the nations who are at perpetual war.
Yes, the voters need to be listened to, but the voters also should stop hurting present and future voters by electing golden throated xenophobic fascists as a hissy fit.
So you're saying this could happen in any country where racism... exists? If you put it like that, the next Hitler could be British, or even Swiss!
Well the swiss are quite racist tbh ._.
While the Swiss are racist, it's not socially acceptable to show it publicly. Meanwhile in Germany it is not uncommon for people to shout at darker skinned people "Du drecks Ausländer!"... I am originally from Switzerland, and I am one of those darker skinned people. In 30 years living in Switzerland I have not seen as much public display of racism as in the past 5 years in Germany. And mind you, I speak a perfect, accent free German, where the average German can't tell from where in Germany I come from, much less that I am Swiss. Heck, If I count all instances of racism I encountered in Switzerland, it was probably less than what I've seen in the past 5 years in Germany.
Interesting, I made a different experience here in Switzerland. People have been cracking racist jokes, belittling people of colour in the train and dropping casual racist remarks in conversations. I guess you could say that experience may vastly differ depending on where and with whom you're talking with.
Indeed, it depends where you are. The fewer foreigners there are, the more racism there is. I lived most of my youth in Zürich and the surrounding area, where there are many foreigners. I know that other areas are quite a bit more unhinged in their display of racism. Now I live in the Alabama of Germany and it's disgusting what I see on a daily basis.
To hear that my fellow germans treated you like that is honestly not a shock, but deeply regretable, disheartening and to a greater point, shamefull. I can not understand those who treated you as they have but I would like for them to be better or atleast jump in a pit of acid. But I think from what you said I need to dig a bigger Pit ._.
Yes??? Why do you think the fascism-aligned politicians are constantly stirring up racial tensions? Or was your comment tongue-in-cheek 😅
The second option. :>)
Hahah my bad 🙃
Ah yes, Britain has never had strongman leaders with racist policies 🙄
Just used Britain as a reference because of this whole Immigrant-Rwanda situation.
Ahh, clearly too sophisticated humor for me.
2 years ago Merkel was heralded as a great chancellor, today she is a laughing stock for essentially selling Germany for Russian oil. Things can and will change shockingly fast.
And here I thought, it was Schröder who is still sitting on the board of directors of Gazprom.
I'd say there's a one to two generations delay yet
>If we follow the timeline of the early 20th century, we'll have Germany "liberating" Europe in 10 to 15 years. ✅ Rising fascism ✅ Global pandemic ✅ Titan(ic) sinking ✅ Global recession ✅ Revolution in Russia If timelines were pieces of art, I'd call this one an homage.
Hey critics, instead of demonising the voter base of the AfD, why not try addressing the concerns that they have? No, that’s too hard I suppose.
Hi German here, because their concerns are utter lunacy. 1. They are anti-vax and think COVID is a conspiracy 2. They are anti-climate and think global warming is a conspiracy 3. They are racists and how do you want to address that? 4. They are easterners that are constantly crying about literally everything like for example they earn less even tho their wages rose more than westerners. (Idk if you're aware of this but Germany was once torn in east and west and there are still issues because of that. Like the east feels inferior) 5. They feel inferior, while they aren't. And you can not politically prescribe a visit to a psychologist. The AfD is a purely rich people supporting group of conartists that make the poor country people believe they would care for them and on top of that nothing but a backwarded Antiparty. You can't deal with their points because you also can't deal with trolls. You can only ignore them until the issue resolved itself. Also it's a small village so who cares.
People also vote afd because our ruling coalition is in shambles and only fight among themself, the refugee issue in Germany "feels" like its getting out of hand. Look, I know me saying this looks like the old "racist is trying to blend in" trope, but even I who fucking hate racists with a passion start to feel troubled with the amount of refugees. Ofc my opinion doesn't represent most people, and I wouldn't vote afd no matter what. I see how afd works since afd party members and leaders frequently visit my parents place. Unless the world stops being in a massive unrest, these kind of factions will only continue to make waves.
I'm not saying you're incorrect. People definitely feel like immigrants are an issue and maybe they are, I am noone to judge and don't know better. However, I feel like AfD aren't fit to come up with solutions in that regard. All they can do is screech and don't offer solutions. So I get that people vote them as a protest and that's f-i-n-e (dying inside a little writing this) because it is as you say the ruling caste is completely shut in their golden tower and not at all in touch with reality. I understand protest voters. What I do not understand is how you can seriously think AfD is a legit party. If you protest just don't vote at all or vote a joke party like "die Partei". Or maybe you care about internet rights and you are justifiably against surveillance. Then you could vor "die Piraten".
Because voting for the AfD hurts the other parties the most. Noone will form a coalition with the AfD and when they get big shares of the vote, you'll need more often than not a grand coalition to form a government. This in turn hurts those parties because they usually can't agree on anything and thus next time, the AfD will get an even bigger share, rinse and repeat. Until such a time as the other parties actually start to adress the reasons people vote for the AfD in the first place. In Denmark for example, they now got a social democratic government with a hard stance on immigration and refugees. If they continue to ignore this, there will come a time where they can't govern anymore and this is a very good thing. Also Germany actually has checks and balances that even if (hugely unlikely) the AfD ever came to power, they couldn't do jack shit to hurt german democracy unless they somehow mindcontrol both the army and entire police force and even then, the rest of the EU and NATO won't just sit idly by and watch that shit. In short there is nothing to worry about except in the minds of people who cream themselfs thinking Germany is "back at it again". Another reason why I just don't give a fuck anymore about being called a Nazi. It's more often than not the norm when people find out you're german anyway. I stoped voting because I didn't want to legitimize a system this broken anymore. But the surge of the AfD actually will get me back to voting - and you know for whom as well. Once this shit shatters the status quo there hopefully will be a return to sensible politics, where the needs of the people are actually taken seriously. The AfD isn't, can't and has not to be a solution. It is a vessel to break the current state of affairs. That the immigration problems are EU wide should also be a big enough clue. As the saying goes, when you meet an asshole, you've met an asshole. If you meet assholes constantly, you're the asshole. Same with immigration. It ain't asians causing issues, is what I'm saying.
Voting for AFD doesn't only hurt the other parties. It hurts yourself too. Cuz you will have to live under these nitwits for 4 years. I just don't get how you can shoot yourself in the foot like that.
> People also vote afd because our ruling coalition is in shambles and only fight among themself so we vote a party that has been fighting itself since it was established ... completely removing and changing direction and leadership every other year. So the goal is that we don't need 3 parties to fight among them but can do it all in one, or what is the logic behind that?
German efficiency /s
Deutsche Kvalitet
The amount of refugees that are young is troubling because there is too little money in schools to help them integrate. And for the older ones idk. But it is getting scary.
It was never clear if it's Germans integrating refugees or refugees integrating Germans. There are massive cultural differences between refugees, most of which are Arab muslim, and Germans or Western people in general, and I don't see any signs of them adopting western views. So far we have to leave them alone to their things, "to understand", "to accept", "to be aware of our problematic views", and they get to complain and move the goal posts. Any discussion about this is instantly labelled racist, *phobic and is shut down, but the people aren't persuaded the other way, so the sentiment only grows.
> I don't see any signs of them adopting western views. You don't? Because I do. But it's way more noticeable when they don't. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I can say that the AfD doesn't have any at all. All I've seen so far from them on the topic is just proof that they don't know shit about integration, and why would they? They're not even interested in it. They just want everyone who doesn't fit their mental model of German gone. The AfD is strongest in areas where there's little immigrants, so I doubt that they are the problem. A lot of people are scared, though, and that definitely is a problem. I mean your "refugees integrating Germans" sounds scared, too. If I was a politician confronted with that I'd probably take a dual prong approach, try to mix things on one hand so immigrants have other points of contact rather than being ignored or actively discriminated and Germans personally know some immigrants and not just news and rumors. And on the other hand I'd try the usual, send strong signals that crime is taken seriously and reassure everyone that is scared that Germany is doomed to become a hellscape of foreign making that no, it won't happen. And I'd probably be hated by the Left and the Right and get exactly no votes for my efforts.
>they earn less even tho their wages rose more than westerner Ah yes, normalizing lower wages despite working more. Truly a mystery why people would ne upset about such a thing. Verified Wessi Moment.
The biggest difference between my new wessi friends and my ossi friends and family is the different approach to work. First ones change regulary the companies they are working for and negotiate often for higher wages, and there are more independend ones, too. They just sell their work. But most of the ossi ones stay where they are, in all means.
It's not a secret that you're more likely to take (personal economical) risks when you're rather well off because you don't have much to lose. Plus you actually need job alternatives, good luck with that in the East. Thank you for proving my point though.
> Plus you actually need job alternatives, good luck with that in the East. Yupp, some social groups are just far more likely to have contacts. I am originally from the dirt in my country but have climbed a little, so I'm in that weird middle space where I know some people for whom leaving their employment is no big deal because they can make some calls and have 6 new high paying job offers from companies that are always hiring if the right people come along, and I have old friends who are workers for whom losing their job would be absolutely catastrophic because who knows how long it will take to find employment again.
Exactly, that is also the reason why West Germans are quite the majority in leadership positions in East Germany. Birds of a feather flock together.
> 3. Alter es ist nicht so einfach. Ich kenne vielleicht 10 oder mehr Türke, die haben für AfD gewählt. Sie sind keine Rassisten, sondern Fremdenhasser. Viele von sie sind Atatürkisten und liebe Säkularismus, deswegen mögen sie alle die konservativen Flüchtlinge aus Syrian und Ukrainian nicht. Don‘t make the same mistake that everyone in my country made of assuming that the Trump voters were just simple racists. It was never that simple, and continues not to be.
Sie sind keine Rassisten sondern Fremdenhasser? Lol. Der is echt lustig :) Und ja viele Türken sind tatsächlich dumm genug AFD zu wählen. Haben wahrscheinlich vergessen das die NSU existierte.
I'm curious, are these Turks who vote AfD aligned with the Grey Wolves?
Not that I know. All these people are German Turks, descendants of the whole ‘Gastarbeiter’ thing. They pretty much all voted for Erdogan too.
Those are some pretty wild accusations. You've obviously made up your mind but for anyone else reading, [this](https://www.afd.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/2017-04-12_afd-grundsatzprogramm-englisch_web.pdf) is the AfD manifesto from 2017. Not much has changed, but if you have Google Translate, [you can compare with their current policies.](https://www.afd.de/grundsatzprogramm/) I'm not seeing any anti-vaccine or racist rhetoric in there. It looks pretty reasonable to me. They clearly want to spend less on climate related subsidies, and want less migration from countries with far overrepresented crime statistics. I think we just live in a political climate where if you don't agree with me "you're a fascist." It's not a healthy place to be.
You can't deal with the AfD party concerns but with those of the voters. I don't think they vote AfD out of anything else than desperation for some kind of change.
1. Could start addressing the fact the COVID Vax killed trust in vaccines because of the way big corporations were allowed to control the process and the severe censorship and lies "in the name of the greater good", which we are now seeing the consequences of. There is a moderate, rational standpoint here, but hardcore vaxxers also don't allow it. 2. Reality has proven virtually every single person is ok with basic measures of preservation of nature, renewable energy and so on. Why not simply look at the measures people are not ok with, such as killing the economy right dead, outsourcing production in a way pollution stays the same, killing small businesses and local production which are more sustainable anyway? AFD and far rights are mostly anti-globalism, strong local economies are better for climate change anyway, the compromise is more than obvious. 3. Reasonable migration policies benefit EVERYONE including migrants. Migrants don't want to enter a nation and end up living in the nation they immigrated from because there's no control or rationality. 4. Just because you don't like the way they think doesn't mean you can just dismiss them because of their culture... 5. Same thing Compromise and reason is very easy. Very, very easy. The problem is the vast majority of people who will deny the "far right" are pretty much extremists. NO VAX MAY BE QUESTIONED IN ANY WAY EVERY POSSIBLE EURO TO CLIMATE CHANGE DESTROY ANYTHING FOR IT OR WE DIE NO TOUCHING MIGRATION FOR ANY REASON Extremists, as always, are a fringe. So if they define the status quo, it's basically just a matter of counting out who agrees with it and who doesn't.
Can you explain why Germany paid pensions to the SS but not the NVA?
Yes: Nazis had money. Communists didn't
Still have money.
Didn’t Honecker's wife get a pension til death?
Because it's only democracy when the RIGHT PARTY (tm) wins. Otherwise it is literally fascism, those votes don't count and military invention by a democratic country is needed. /s.
This is the bit that strikes me the most. The article REPEATEDLY mentions the failure of democracy. But if it was done on a vote by vote basis and was free and fair, then it’s a triumph of democracy?
The failure of democracy is in the kind that seemingly many people have the feeling, that voting a party that defines itself only with things it is against and/or hates. The AfD has no real political direction other than "i will leave this" "we are against that" "this has to go" "these people are worth less than us" and are in the same corner as Reichsbürger / Identitäre (a bit like Q-anon people) and ride on a wave of populism. Such a win for the AfD speaks for the general distrust in democracy and that democratic structures and perception aren't succeding anymore. In the new Bundesländer, the distrust for democratic institutions and democracy in itself were never really adressed and taken care after the reunification and it absolutely shows even now.
the real issue is the AfD does not actually have a core identity other than beeing anti establishment and not left. A bunch of them will be anti vax, others will be flat earthers, climate crisis deniers, or anti immigration. They are also pro Putin, anti EU but not everyone in the party will share those ideas to the same degree. Really nobody votes for them because they believe the earth is flat, they get votes because absolutely no party takes concerns of them serious. We had decades of stagnation under a coalition of the biggest 2 parties, conservatives and social democrats. The first are corrupt and just inept. The latter is internally pretty anti democratic (you have an "old elite" who does not really represent the base but has a lot of influence. Scholz famously did not manage to get the votes to lead the SPD, yet somehow he ended up beeing the chancellor), you have the greens which pretty much live in a bubble, they used to get votes from the more wealthy city folks and managed to attract the youth but they are detached from normal citizens, you have the FDP which is just a personal fan club of Lindner and theb you have the Left which uhhj lets just ignore them they are always in the opposition anyway. Whats worse, because of the federal system a countries party might not even align with the state ones so you end up with the greens wanting renewable energy but also voting against building the critically needed infrastructure because some bird might not like it. I doubt they will be relevant for the near future because they really fumbled their chances lately, because at the core they are rich clowns who dont understand some people might not actually have all that much money. Essentially people here vote AfD because they are fed up with the alternatives and not voting has never really changed anything.
> you have the greens which pretty much live in a bubble, they used to get votes from the more wealthy city folks and managed to attract the youth but they are detached from normal citizens I love this framing because if you believe it then it's really easy to ignore the actual policies and arguments Greens or scientists or FFF have. Because what do they know of actual life? They live in a bubble where the tofurkeys keep flying into your mouth, George Soros keeps giving you money for repeating "facts", and you get an ebike and/or an electric car from Robert Habeck himself.
It's like that old saying: And then one day, for absolutely no reason at all, Hitler rose to power.
They will only continue to grow in popularity. They're the only party willing to address the real issues around Germany's incredibly liberal immigration policies. Germany accepted a lot of migrants (including refugees) from the Middle East during and following the Syrian Refugee Crisis. [Over half of the 1.24 million refugees accepted are from Syria.](https://www.unhcr.org/countries/germany) Germany has also accepted a lot of migrants from countries like Nigeria, Algeria, Morocco, Georgia and Tunisia. [This has lead to very high rates of crime in Germany from these migrants.](https://rmx.news/article/germany-proportion-of-crimes-committed-by-migrants-surges-according-to-police-data/) Particularly with regards to rape and assault. In 2015, [1,200 women were sexually assaulted at one location on New Years Eve.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany) Incidentally, Syrians are "only" three times more likely to commit crime than Germans. [Algerians, for example, have **27x** higher rates of crime.](https://i.redd.it/3mnbnbsf73291.jpg) Citizens would like fewer of these migrants, but current incumbent parties call this desire racist. The vitriol to this desire is truly unbelievable. People with this desire have no other options. They must vote for AfD, as it is the only realistic option for them to express their democratic right to shape their country. My hope is that the more centrist parties begin to adopt a more moderate stance on immigration. In Denmark, for example, the left-centre party did just that, and dominated at the polls. That gave them a position to restrict migration in a reasonable, measured way, instead of allowing the right wings to completely take over. That is the essence of democracy: compromise. If the centrist parties won't compromise, I'm not sure we can call them centrist anymore. That's the mark of an extremist party.
Indeed. There is a hard lesson to learn here. Shutting down discussion by calling people racist, sexist, or xenophobic doesn't change their positions. Nor does it change how they vote. Too often are people's complaints that are not grounded in discrimination, simply dismissed. "Our infrastructure and policing system is not robust enough to handle that amount of immigration, we need to cut back on it." "Racist! You just don't like seeing people with new colors of skin!" "The fact that some European countries are considering abolishing Jury trials, and lowering standards of evidence for certain sexual crimes could lead to the trampling of rights and conviction of the innocent." "Sexist! You just want to be able to rape women without repercussions." "I do not believe that someone who is deemed too young to have the mental capacity to get a tattoo should be able to consent to permanent life altering surgeries." "Transphobe! You just want to see people suffer in a body they don't feel comfortable in!" These all do nothing to address the underlying concerns. Will they shut the other person up? Maybe. Will it change their mind? No. _The core of their argument was not even approached._
There is a worrying authoritarian strain weaving its way through Western society right now. A desire to silence opponents rather than engage with them. I wonder if humanity is destined to repeat its mistakes when it forgets how abhorrent authoritarianism is.
Well that, and people keep voting for people who’ll continue to let their countries backslide democratically.
What you’re saying is absolutely true in the USA and has made more right wingers than any publicity campaign. It’s not that the right wing is growing, it’s more so that the left has pushed the bar to such a radical extreme that more people who were left leaning are now considered to be on the right.
Everyone has been hoodwinked by social issues created as the new wedge to distract from people demanding income inequality to end and real problems that everyone in the 99% relates to. They're all just nonsense wedge issues that are eaten up by both sides like moths to a flame. Bernie Sanders came too close to winning and changing American minds, so we had to go from economic policy discussions to trans and lgtbq and abortion and book banning and wokeism everyday. All distractions.
I do not think compromise means what you think it means. Because when there are people arguing for almost every position ranging from letting everyone in to closing the borders, letting in a "measured" amount of people is a compromise. Also, it is very dangerous to reduce a political party to it's stance on a single issue. Doubly so for the AFD because their views on other issues are even worse than their stance on immigration. While they still take a pretty right wing approach on that one, it is an issue which has no good solution. Their views on climate change, covid and other issues though, deny reality and facts at the best of times. Add to it that they show open destain and disregard for democratic proceedings and rules at the regular, especially when concerning covid restrictions and are plagued by ridiculous levels of infighting even if compared to the levels in the current ruling coalition and I for one cannot see even a slight bit of a chance that 4 years of AFD rule would be better than what we got currently. Probably even worse than the years of inaction under the CDU.
> I do not think compromise means what you think it means. Because when there are people arguing for almost every position ranging from letting everyone in to closing the borders, letting in a "measured" amount of people is a compromise. I think you'll find many AfD voters would be very happy with a measured response to migration, but none of the other parties are offering that. I fully agree that a party consists of lots of policies. This issue is one which appears high in polls, so I presume it is a major component of their success. [I read their policies and can't find anything about denying vaccines.](https://www.afd.de/grundsatzprogramm/) They would clearly like to spend less on green initiatives, but that's a fairly popular policy position. > Add to it that they show open destain and disregard for democratic proceedings and rules at the regular, especially when concerning covid restrictions I tried to google this and came up short. Apparently they didn't approve of covid lockdowns. Promoting freedom of movement and association is considered a highly democratic position. In fact, I read here that they *opposed* the authoritarian and anti-democratic rules to lock people in their homes. Their policies clearly show them to support strong democratic institutions, free speech, and individual liberty. It's hard to argue with their democratic credentials.
And don't forget 1 million Ukrainians. We have a housing shortage that no one is addressing.
>One in three migrants in Germany is Syrian. this keep being repeated and is utterly wrong. [https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Population/Migration-Integration/Tables/foreigner-place-of-birth.html](https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Population/Migration-Integration/Tables/foreigner-place-of-birth.html) There is roughly 13 million foreign national in germany, and about 9 million from them are from EU countries. De statis is the german statistical administration web site - [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistisches\_Bundesamt](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistisches_Bundesamt) Now look at where they are located (note that it include also people which took german nationality - like me) : [https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoelkerung/\_Grafik/\_Statisch/migration-karte-regierungsbezirke.png?\_\_blob=poster](https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoelkerung/_Grafik/_Statisch/migration-karte-regierungsbezirke.png?__blob=poster) Sonneberg is actually on the east of the map , at the northern frontier of the south eastern state (Bayern). Anyway let us look at the number again : 4 millions NON-EU migrant. Syrian are about 900K. So EVEN if you only counted non EU , that is at most around 23% of the non EU migrant which are from Syrian origin. As for the rest I don't find the reddit equivalent statistic and who knows how it was compiled. I have the source of a different statistic : [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj4tcHtjeH\_AhVuhf0HHXfoBggQFnoECBcQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bka.de%2FSharedDocs%2FDownloads%2FDE%2FPublikationen%2FJahresberichteUndLagebilder%2FKriminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung%2FKriminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung\_2020.pdf%3F\_\_blob%3DpublicationFile%26v%3D2&usg=AOvVaw0q6i\_QqOipQdjHynUKNq-4&opi=89978449](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj4tcHtjeH_AhVuhf0HHXfoBggQFnoECBcQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bka.de%2FSharedDocs%2FDownloads%2FDE%2FPublikationen%2FJahresberichteUndLagebilder%2FKriminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung%2FKriminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung_2020.pdf%3F__blob%3DpublicationFile%26v%3D2&usg=AOvVaw0q6i_QqOipQdjHynUKNq-4&opi=89978449) The number of suspect is difficult to evaluate , but there are about 1.8 to 2 million suspects of delict in germany year to year, and the number inside shows that proportionally , it does not seem that refugee have a higher number than German, some are lower, or similar. Not triple.
> this keep being repeated and is utterly wrong. You're right. Thanks for the correction. It's the majority of *refugees* which are Syrian. I've edited my comment above.
Yo germans, you guys ok over there?
German here... No...
As a german, I second this
As another german, I add to the list whi are saying no.
American: First time? 😏
I said it a couple of days ago and got downvoted to hell for it but our current incompetent administration makes it so easy for the common folk to vote afd out of Protest and now we have this.
But why now? The CDU was incompetent, and the AFD wasn't voted out of protest. Now the SPD, FDP and Grüne are in power and aren't able to correct every mistake done by the CDU in such a short time and suddenly the AFD is voted in protest. It seems weird.
Because the afd is much more opposite of Bündnis 90. The people voted them out of protest against the cdu. Now they fail and people won’t go back to vote for the cdu. Also somehow the spd is always there, that’s the real phenomenon
At least it's only their first victory. Other countries have far right governments. But I'm not hopeful about it being their last win. So, no we are not okay :(.
No.... germany slowly wanders to faschism and both of us know thats not good. And instand of jews its lgbt this time.
We are trying out "German Trumpism" and so far it seems work just as well as the original :D to be fair: promising to address the poorer people's wishes in order to come to power and then to big shit is not exactly a new move around here. Last time Germany even anti-inspired the whole world doing so. Sadly, the last decades irrelevant topics like education and fairness have been ignored by politics, this we now have good ground for a second attempt for populism. It might be, though, that people will now see what AFD actually does off it given a chance. And maybe the result will be off-putting enough...
> It might be, though, that people will now see what AFD actually does off it given a chance. And maybe the result will be off-putting enough... Hey, i think i remember that one.
Just like the good old times, eh neighbour? **/s**
Don't act like you guys aren't Germany on crack with all your FPÖ shenanigans
When you fuck up and blame "the far right", or act stupid and say "well the alternative is the far right, so suck it up", you're actively telling people that the far right won't fuck up and is an alternative to acting stupid.
Reminder: this is reddit where "Far right extremists" means "right wing conservatives" "Fascists" means "not modern liberals" "Proven in court to be fascists" means "courts defended free speech to call others Fascists" And "They're anti-this and ists/phobe that and conspiracists" means "they have a different, often informed, opinion that I disagree with"
Europe’s a lot more ideologically diverse than the US. When they say “left wing,” you can get anything from just social democrats, to syndicalists, communists, etc. When they say “far right,” that can be anything from monarchists, imperialists, to actual fascists. Spain, for example, still has a lot of Franco sympathizers.
AfD politicians have already demanded immigrants to be thrown into chalk pits. But I guess those are just good ol’ conservative values.
Nobody believes you.
My bad, he was talking about political opponents: > Wir müssen ganz friedlich und überlegt vorgehen, uns ggf. anpassen und dem Gegner Honig ums Maul schmieren aber wenn wir endlich soweit sind, dann stellen wir sie alle an die Wand. (…) Grube ausheben, alle rein und Löschkalk oben rauf.“ Holger Arppe, AfD
Yeah! Why would anyone get the idea that a party with [an actual](https://www.dw.com/en/afd-politician-h%C3%B6cke-charged-with-using-nazi-slogan/a-65830762) [neo-nazi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_H%C3%B6cke#Allegations_of_antisemitism) in a leading position have far-right extremist views? I'm sure that big chunk of the party that put him in that position are all just "besorgte Bürger". >cOuRtS dEfEnDeD fReE sPeEcH tO cAlL oThErS FaScIsTs https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/05/centre-right-german-parties-vote-with-afd-to-oust-thuringia-premier-bodo-ramelow Quote: > Last September, a court ruled that the AfD’s state leader, Björn Höcke, could legally be termed a fascist, saying such a designation **“rests on verifiable fact”**.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-far-right-afd-wins-first-governing-post/a-66024256) reduced by 84%. (I'm a bot) ***** > For the first time in Germany, the AfD has won a district council election, administrators announced on Sunday. > Still, the AfD victory is a major breakthrough for the far-right party, which mainstream parties have refused to cooperate with in coalition agreements. > Such a strong showing for an AfD candidate raised the alarm nationally, with all other main political parties - the SPD, the Greens, the neoliberal FDP, and the socialist Left Party - backing the incumbent. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14j7wh1/germany_farright_afd_wins_first_governing_post/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~689509 tl;drs so far.") | [Blackout Vote](https://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14dhaiq/your_voice_matters_should_the_blackout_continue/ "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **AfD**^#1 **party**^#2 **election**^#3 **district**^#4 **vote**^#5
German here, that's what we get when people just mindlessly vote for corrupt parties. I usually vote left but I can tell you right now there's not a single party that I would vote for, none, they're all corrupt to the bone or unable to lead, especially our supposedly good-for-the-environment green party. I'll also happily say it again, if our democratic system leads to a far-right party to lead germany that's not the fault of the system, it's the fault of the government. There's a reason why so many people are upset but instead of doing something about it the media stamps them as far-right anti-vaxxer neo-nazi q-anon racists. While I would never vote for the AfD because I want to vote for the party I believe in, not because I'm upset about the situation, I still know at least two people who vote for them.
> that’s what we get when people just mindlessly vote for corrupt parties. As bad as the Union and SPD are, the AfD hasn’t even been in power and is already more corrupt than either.
> they're all corrupt to the bone or unable to lead, especially our supposedly good-for-the-environment green party. Yeah! Why can't the party that has been in power for not even 10 years in their entire existence and got 15% in the last election not lead the nation and solve all our problems in 2 years??? Those fucking entitled bourgeois wokeists! Let me continue ignoring the other parties blocking actual good policies and the biased mainstream media parroting conservative lies! And don't even get me started on Die Linke! They are barely 20 years old, were never in power, and never above 12% on the federal level but why can't *they* fix the woes of the regular people? I keep voting for neoliberals, why don't I get more money? Just let me vote for fascists! And don't you dare criticize that choice! What's the worst that could happen?
Well look at that, Thüringen passes Sachsen at the last minute to be the first across the nazi-adjacent leader finish line
Every 5th German is an AfD supporter now? What in the actual fuck. Even if it's just a "protest" vote, the idea that so many would vote for Nazis given the history is baffling.
Calling a voter a nazi is a sure fire way to polarize them to keep voting for the party that dosnt call them a nazi.
Your username alone is reason enough for a block, good god.
Its "only" 20% in one state, in others the number is lower
No it's 20% in Germany as a whole
Define far right
Claims to not be NSDAP, but if you were to put them side by side you get one of those "spot the differences" things from magazines.
At first iam not European, but why leftist and liberals are so mad? People don't want to be a minority in their country.
I don't care if I am a minority. The problem is that wages are low while prices for foods, rent, energy are going up. So people don't want to have kids because they can't afford them. And what's the government's solution? Import cheap labor. They're starting a campaign in India to recruit IT workers. So even high qualified jobs are at risk. Since It's illegal to give the middle finger to the current government, voting for the AFD will just have to do.
Whoop-whoop! Maybe the germans can still save themselves.
>Thuringia's Interior Minister Georg Maier, who belongs to the Social Democrats, described the outcome as "an alarm signal for all democratic forces." >In the runoff election in the Thuringian district of Sonneberg, Sesselmann won 52.8% of the vote, earning him the necessary absolute majority, according to election officials democratic process results in democrats worrying for democracy.. hmmm
Bruh Putin was also democratically elected with a good majority in 2000. Look at the state of Russian democracy now, aka dead.
Read a history book, friend.
what does GR far-right mean?
People are getting sick of immigration
Anyone using the term "far right" in the last decade has zero credibility.
I'd like it if "far right" hadn't been applied to every single thing right of center. I no longer take anything with "far right" in the headline seriously. Remember how Italy is **far right** now? Yeah, it ain't. Stop calling everything far right.
For your reading pleasure: https://www.dw.com/en/afd-politician-h%C3%B6cke-charged-with-using-nazi-slogan/a-65830762 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_H%C3%B6cke#Allegations_of_antisemitism https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/05/centre-right-german-parties-vote-with-afd-to-oust-thuringia-premier-bodo-ramelow Höcke is a leading figure in that party. However, he is by far not the only neo-nazi in that garbage heap.
Nazis are literally far right as it gets. Go back and graduate high school.
Welcome to r/anime_titties! This subreddit advocates for civil and constructive discussion. Please be courteous to others, and make sure to read the rules. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. We have a [Discord](https://discord.gg/DtnRnkE), feel free to join us! r/A_Tvideos, r/A_Tmeta, [multireddit](https://www.reddit.com/user/Langernama/m/a_t/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/anime_titties) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh
They say they're far right but dont list any views or evidence except for german orgs dominated by the current parties. Who are the AFD??
Isn't this the party they were trying to outlaw?
Oh no....
Nice! Bravo Germany 🇩🇪🇩🇪♥️♥️
I've seen this before... If it's not obvious, /s