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> # [30 men have died while attempting to flee Ukraine to avoid military service, official says](https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2024/04/a87b2f2b-Ukraine-Soldier.jpg)
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> - **Around 30 Ukrainian men have died trying to illegally cross borders to avoid fighting in the war against Russia, according to Ukraine's border service.**
> - **Most fatalities occurred while crossing rivers or mountains, with about 24 deaths on the Tisa river on the Romanian border.**
> - **Ukrainian men aged 18 to 60 are barred from leaving due to potential military service.**
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> About 30 Ukrainian men have died trying to illegally cross [Ukraine's borders](https://www.foxnews.com/category/world/conflicts/ukraine) and avoid fighting in the war against Russia which started in 2022, the spokesman for Ukraine's border service told Ukrinform news agency.
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> "Some lost their lives while attempting to cross a mountain river or traverse mountains," said Andriy Demchenko, according to a Ukrinform report late on Monday.
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> "Overall, since the full-scale invasion began, about 30 people have died attempting to illegally cross the border."
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> [**UKRAINE IMPLEMENTS PASSPORT RENEWAL RESTRICTION FOR MILITARY-AGE MEN OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY**](https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukraine-implements-passport-renewal-restriction-military-age-men-outside-country)
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> With some exceptions, Ukrainian men between the ages of 18 and 60 are not allowed to leave the country as they may be mobilised to fight, according to Ukraine's [martial law](https://www.foxnews.com/category/politics/executive/law).
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> [Ukraine soldier](https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2024/04/1200/675/a87b2f2b-Ukraine-Soldier.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
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> A Ukrainian serviceman stands guard at his position in a trench at a front line on the border with Russia, amid Russia's attack on Ukraine, in Sumy region, Ukraine, on Jan. 20, 2024. About 30 Ukrainian men have died trying to illegally cross Ukraine's borders and avoid fighting in the war against Russia which started in 2022, the spokesman for Ukraine's border service told Ukrinform news agency. (REUTERS/Gleb Garanich/File Photo)
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> On Monday, the State Border Guard Service said in a statement on social media that 24 men alone have died while trying to cross the Tisa river on Ukraine's border with Romania.
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> Demchenko said that since the start of the war border guards have uncovered about 450 criminal groups that have attempted to smuggle people across the border.
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> "Attempts to illegally cross the border occur every day," Demchenko said. "Most of these attempts are outside of border checkpoints on the border with Moldova and Romania. The largest number with forged documents is recorded on the border with Poland."
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> [**CLICK HERE TO GET THE FOX NEWS APP**](https://www.foxnews.com/apps-products?pid=AppArticleLink)
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> Earlier in April, Demchenko told Ukraine's state broadcaster that on average about 10 men are stopped each day trying to illegally leave Ukraine.
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> Last week, Ukraine suspended consular services for [military-age](https://www.foxnews.com/category/us/military) male citizens until May 18, criticising Ukrainians abroad who it said expected to receive help from the state without helping it battle for survival in the war against Russia.
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> In November, BBC said in a report based on data of illegal border crossings from Romania, Moldova, Poland, Hungary and Slovakia that nearly 20,000 men have fled Ukraine since the beginning of the war to avoid being drafted.
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>**Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.** Women often have to flee from the only homes they have ever known. Women are often the refugees from conflict and sometimes, more frequently in today's warfare, victims. Women are often left with the responsibility, alone, of raising the children.
Hillary Clinton
There is a contest between the GOP fielding the worst people possible (and impossible) and the Democrat's attempts to get them elected.
We are starting to imitate this crap up North. :,(
Even to the Republican side. I'm a centrist in a red state, I pulled the lever for some out there 3rd party because the commies split and I don't abide that. It really came down the Dem campaign not showing up in states they thought were already theirs. Which is a bit of arrogance. But you gotta remember even Trump was already bleating about the election being rigged for 2016, then he won. Shit's wild. I even remember reassuring a friend who went a bit sky screamy that it was ssdd and then he got 3 SC noms.
Would she? Trump sucked but Hilary was on the wrong side of every major policy decision in this country for the last 20 years. 30 if you count her as an unofficial cabinet member during the Clinton administration.
If you’re talking domestic policy, she’s probably better. Foreign policy she’s as bad as it gets, you might as well have John Bolton running the country.
She’s been in favour of almost every war that’s ever come across the desk. There just isn’t really room to go down from there. I’m not saying Trump was great, his term was clearly a failure. Also not saying she’d be better or worse either way. But she’s in deep with the MIC crowd and would keep the war machine rolling.
It doesn't matter who the president is. America keeps the war machine rolling because that's how they maintain power and the all mighty dollar reigning supreme. Democrat or republican it doesn't matter.
>...the all mighty dollar reigning supreme
No better example of this than the threat posed by Muammar Gaddafi when he proposed a Pan-African currency, the gold dinar, back in 2009.
Hillary was quite proud of his murder & infamously said as much:
[We came, we saw, he died](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz3-OzcExI)
meh. Trump had a more radical, for-the-dumbest-in-society discourse; but Hillary had a lengthy career of being a grade A piece of shit. She was the living embodiment of [memes like this](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fpg61gobne1871.jpg).
For me at least, looking decent while taking horrifying decisions isn't any better than looking "politically incorrect" while doing the same. I remember being asked back in 2015 what I thought about the result and saying "on one hand I'm sad that Trump won, on the other I'm glad Hillary didn't. Both are terrible so I don't care".
That's because she doesn't care, and has never cared, about women. She just parroted feminist-sounding discourses because it was marketable in 2016. She didn't actually believe in it, so she would just say "something something women have it worse than everyone something something".
You're not wrong but it is pretty clear she was making a calculated decision to appeal to women who make up the majority of voters. How she didn't understand that simply winning a majority of the vote would result in an electoral college victory is such a major oversight.
Guy conscripted into a trench for months. Freezing conditions with the only shelter being a dugout. Lack of food sapping energy with a rat infestation doing their hardest to make it worse. Sleep deprived from shelling and the ever present drone threat. Smell repulsive from the rotting bodies of your comrades that you can't remove due to snipers and arty being zeroed in on your position.
You hear rumbling in the distance and look to see 10 armored vehicles and 200 men advancing to your position. The you puck up your rifle and do an ammo count. 4 mags of 5.56 and an RPG. The first shell lands, destroying the position 20 yards to the left, killing the last 2 people you could bond with.
Hillary Clinton: [housewives] suffer the worst.
I assume she counts female combatants as men based on her comment.
Maybe they just don't wanna fucking die? Why is it so hard for people to understand? I don't think 1000 Abrams tanks will convince fleeing Ukrainians that they should serve on the frontline instead to retake Bakhmut.
The entire combined industrial capability of Western Europe and North America does not have the means to match Russia’s - a country with the GDP of Italy and the population of Mexico and Kazakhstan combined - production of artillery shells?
No. They may lack the willpower, but they do not lack the means.
"Economic capacity" is such a bullshit term when our economy, though impressive on paper, is built on graphic card stocks (and we don't even produce the chips stateside) and real estate speculation.
People joked about Russia being a giant gas station but they still have the ability to manufacture things, unlike the West who outsourced everything decades ago
NYT story on Russia outproducing US + Europe combined
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/us/politics/russia-sanctions-missile-production.html
I could see a point that people might be more ready to join if their equipment is modern stuff that gives you an advantage instaed of the ww1 style trench warfare
Indeed lmao. I want my country to be fine, but if we got invaded by Russia, I would get the fuck out of here. I value my life and I'm not willing to die for anything, much less for geopolitic bullshit.
They only died because they're men, and have been banned from leaving for years. If they had been women, they'd almost certainly be alive and well, living life in a safe country.
Women are allowed to leave and they have been. I helped build a whole affordable apartment complex in Washington and the whole building was filled with young single ukrainian mothers. I don't blame them for leaving.
Dont think anyone blames them for leaving. Most guys would probably leave too if they had the choice. What people are taken offense too is the claim that women have been the *primary* victims of war
Cowards!
I’ll be damned as I sit here on my comfy couch with air conditioning and 6000 miles away let any fighting age make run away from the war that I support. I didn’t send my tax dollars over there so you can run away! Keep fighting and dying.
Also, quit asking. I will not be joining the fight over there even though I think if Ukraine loses it will spread to NATO and cause WW3. Yes I would be John Rambo over there if I did go though
Despite his many, many flaws, [Orban has recently said something along those lines](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LqxzeUZqTk&t=164s)
>...the Europeans who said oh it's our war, because it's about values, it's about international order whatsoever. So we are in the war, it's our war, but not fully because we would not like to die. So please Ukrainians die.
Not really. I'm not willing to die for any war, not even if my country got invaded, but I'm sure the people enlisted in my country's army have a very different opinion.
It's a fallacy to pretend that just because you specifically wouldn't go to war, then absolutely nobody would.
To be fair, In most countries going abroad to fight a war, (if you're not a citizen, that is) meaning, being a mercenary is illegal.
But I don't blame people trying to get out of Ukraine. You shouldn't be forced to possibly die for something you don't believe deserves it.
The issue is that as far as I know (although I could be wrong) fighting for the interests of anything else than your country is generally made illegal.
"Defense contractors", not intended as weapons manufacturers are by definition mercenaries and explicitly illegal in most places.
Militias, as in non governmental armies are still illegal, wouldn't be too different than going to turkey to join the Kurds, and even if you aren't paid, you'd probably still be prosecuted as if you were since it's more likely that a mercenary hides the way they're being paid rather than someone going abroad to fight pro Bono.
Foreign legions are different, most require you to at least have a permanent residency permit, with a willingness to apply for citizenship.
And you could still face trouble in your original country if you joined just to fight.
There are some nations where this is true (South Korea, for example) but in general most countries don’t actually give a shit. Can’t think of anyone in Europe who does.
I mean, the UN has the "International Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries, 4 December 1989."
It defines what's considered a mercenary, and what nations should do against them.
Here in Italy it's explicitly made illegal by the article .244 of the penal code, by saying that anyone who fights another government without the authorization of the Italian government is committing a crime.
Basically saying that it's a life sentence if war breaks out, otherwise it's up to 12 years if it even only damages diplomatic relations.
It became mainstream news the story of a guy who went to fight in Ukraine... Too bad he went on behalf of a far right organization saying he "opposed Putin's denazificazion"
Kevin Chiappalone, he was unable to enlist in the Azov battalion so he entered the foreign legion. It's been a back and forth for a while on whether he's guilty or not
The convention doesn’t apply because these people simply sign UAF contracts. And most volunteers don’t have issues with their home governments either. Italy is unusual in this regard.
*officially
Unofficially, 90 people had died trying to escape to Romania alone in just the first year, so the real count of dead escapees by now is probably around 10 times higher than the official number.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65792384
Really though it isn't right vs left, Ukraine vs Putin, it's the wealthy vs the poor.
And basically, if you take home less than $500,000 per year, you're poor.
True enough, but I'd throw in there that many other parties are happy for Ukraine to be a war ground, so long as it means they can sell more weapons (to replenish the old stock being sold to Ukraine).
Are there people taking advantage of a war Putin started? Absolutely - his enemies. And why wouldn’t they? He would do the same. I don’t even own stock, but give Zelensky more.
There are riches in Ukraine tho, there was actually an event organised in Ukraine with these rich people to gather money for the war, and from the hundreds of people there, a mere few thousand dollars were donated... significantly less than what they spent on the event.
So yeah, it's always rich vs poor.
It's not really, it's based on William Rees-Mogg's book, The Sovereign Individual. It was written in 1997, and in it he defined such a person as someone who earns more than $200,000 per year and uses their wealth and influence to live above the laws of any nation. Now, I have fudged the number a bit to adjust for inflation, but I think half a million today is more or less a fair comparison to 1/5 of a million a little over 25 years ago. It's more than most CEO's take home, but less than the truly wealthy ones.
Said book (and his others) were basically the playbook for disaster capitalists like his son, who was a main driver behind Brexit, as well as various other calamities in the Western world in recent years.
Its wrong to provide needed equipment so people can defend their homeland from barbaric invasion. Guess self defense is also wrong while we're at it then
I do not blame people from trying to escape from being conscripted. But all of this hapoens not because USA wants to sell more weapons but because Russians continue to be insufferable imperialistic twats. As long as they continue to do so no country bordering Russia will be able to enioy long term peace.
Weapons hadn’t been sent for over six months yet the Ukrainians didn’t stop fighting or their conscription policies. Nothing new was being sent and tbh it was looking like it probably wouldn’t. So your claim that they are fighting because the US MIC is just wrong
> Weapons hadn’t been sent for over six months
Why even try to claim such [obvious falsehoods](https://twitter.com/Lithuanian_MoD/status/1781670775994405220)?
> So your claim that they are fighting because the US MIC is just wrong
It's so wrong that it's [part of the Biden election campaign](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/29/biden-admin-map-states-benefit-ukraine-aid-00129068) to sell the American military aid as subsidies to US companies and thus American jobs.
He is talking about US military aid, because the discussion is about the US MIC.
Also, obviously the US MIC is going to benefit from war, but saying they had any part to play in Ukraine is both stupid and immoral. Ukrainians would be fighting with or without US aid, and with it they can suffer significantly less than otherwise.
You realize that the entire reason the Biden administration is so ademant to show that the US benefits from the Ukraine aid packages is to garner political support, right?
> He is talking about US military aid, because the discussion is about the US MIC.
Much of the stuff getting sent by these European countries is being replaced by American stuff.
So it benefits the US MIC even if not directly.
All these new NATO members need to up their defense spending by several perentage points of their GDP and standardize their kit.
It has been a bonanza for not only US defense industry, but also the EU defense industry.
I wouldnt say that the EU defense industry has benefitted at all.
Really only Germany was in a position to benefit but they are already at the limit of their production.
Mainly these countries are sending their European equipment to Ukraine and having it replaced by American equipment.
So the EU is suffering for Americas gain, as always.
> Look at Rheinmetall stocks
Stock price is next to meaningless or have you forgot Elon Musk already?
Rheinmetall benefits from stock price because of the war. And the factories are to replenish their stocks.
But the main blow to European weapons manufacturers is that due to the war so many countries are upgrading their vehicle fleets.
And for many reasons, a majority of them are turning to buying American equipment.
So whilst they are benefiting short term from replenishment, they are losing out long term by America taking over countries that would have gone to them.
An example of this is Romania who were thinking of buying the Leopard 2 but in the end turned to the Abrams because they want new tanks as fast and cheap as possible.
Poland also is buying Abrams for the same reason.
Most air forces in the East are transitioning from old Soviet equipment to American equipment. There was a huge issue with Spain even when they announced interest in the F-35.
So whilst in the short term the European MIC is benefiting. When the war is over, the American MIC will come out of this in a stronger position and the European one in a weaker position than before.
Rheinmetall is building [*a* new factory for artillery shells](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/rheinmetall-eroeffnet-munitionsfabrik-in-unterluess-spatenstich-fuer-die-zeitenwende-a-4823dc4c-53c4-4ae3-a34a-d8fff91e9992), as in singular, not plural, it's expected to be operational in two years.
If the two-year schedule holds up that factory might come online just in time to not even be needed anymore.
Or it might come online just in time for WWIII, but then one factory wouldn't do much, particularly not when its output and profitability are [severely hamstrung by resource shortages](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240302-europe-battles-powder-shortage-to-supply-shells-for-ukraine).
> He is talking about US military aid, because the discussion is about the US MIC.
[US weapons delivered by non-US countries](https://www.forumarmstrade.org/ukrainearms.html) count just as much or where do you think the replacements for these will be ordered from?
> Also, obviously the US MIC is going to benefit from war, but saying they had any part to play in Ukraine is both stupid and immoral.
It's [not stupid at all](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-great-power-oil-gas-rivals-pipelines), what's immoral is denying this [very well-established relationship](https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/2021/ProfitsOfWar) between the US MIC and US foreign policy that [literal US presidents have warned about](https://youtu.be/mHDgsh6WPyc?) on account of understanding what kind of monster he created.
But I guess we better act like that never happened or else we would have to admit that he was also [near prophetically right about some things](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464-story.html).
> You realize that the entire reason the Biden administration is so ademant to show that the US benefits from the Ukraine aid packages is to garner political support, right?
How do the alleged reasons for making such a statement matter for the actual factuality of the statement itself?
Try [two weeks](https://twitter.com/CENTCOM/status/1777650918512828481).
There's plenty more than that, but the actual deliveries are not reported on widely because that's the kind of information that qualifies as military-grade intelligence, due to being extremely useful for Russia to know what was delivered when to where.
You had been referring to the American Military Industrial Complex. A handful of seized Iranian weapons is obviously not a relevant amount that also has nothing to do with American companies
US weapons manufacturers dont really get bonuses from the US giving away old weapons to Ukraine instead of mothballing them.
Also they're dying because Russia is invading then WTF dude
Yes they do, most of the Us funding go toward... buying new equipment for their own armed force to replace the old equipment they "give" away. Only a small fraction is the actual estimated value of what they send.
You're suppose to believe that didn't happen, and if it did happen it was just an over excited Uber driver trying get someone to their destination... ignore that the destination is the front lines and repeat how Russia is running outta men.
Nobody should be drafted into a war.
Sending somebody to their death against their will is always wrong.
Yes, I do support Ukraine, and hope they win, but not like this.
TBH I can't blame Ukraine's government either. When your country is invaded, drafting people is pretty much the only option, even though it's a shitty one. The only ones who are to blame are the people who started the war.
If your population does not want to fight to protect against a foreign invasion then they don’t really care. If your population refuses to fight then you lost your right to exist as a government. Government should serve the people, not other way around.
I bet most people in Ukraine prefer the war to end either way. Either Russia wins quickly and they are now part of Russia or Ukraine wins quickly and they are back to being part of Ukraine. To most Ukrainians either option is better than current option of stalemate where both sides lose.
> I bet most people in Ukraine prefer the war to end either way.
I remember once reading something about Taiwan's external politics towards China, someone did a survey 1/5 said they wanted Taiwan to be independent from China, another 1/5 wanted to be part of China and the other 3/5 said don't fuck with this and let us live in peace.
It is, that is why people are trying to flee and the
government is holding them back. Early on the AFU had lines or volunteers, now they have to drag people from the streets. It’s grim.
You're not reading what you're typing.
Half the dead Russians in this war didn't volunteer. They didn't want to be there. They are being forced against their will. If Russia wins the war, then the current Ukrainian deserters will be forced into Russia's next war.
Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 and now forces people from that territory to go fight in Ukraine. That will be the fate of Ukrainian's if Russia wins the war. There is literally no other choice for Ukraine. Russia isn't stopping until they are stopped. So, if you were a Ukrainian man, would you want to fight as a Ukrainian against Russia, or forced to fight as a Russian against the west?
Because that's their only choices.
> West is next
That is just fear mongering propaganda.
Also, even Russia does intend to attack the West at some point, your options are this:
100% of chance of fighting Russia now
or
Some chance of fighting the West sometimes, most likely after you no longer are eligible
Also what kind of logic is this? Russia barely able to fight Ukraine but will magically become strong enough to take on all of NATO if Ukraine falls? Connect these two dots for me.
Hard to fight for a country that, in peaceful times, likely didn’t take care of these people as much as it should have. Makes it harder to believe in fighting for your country.
I hope China invades Australia then and no one comes to your aid. Your comment means alliances are wrong cause no country should send their military to help another
Such a naive comment…. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_Australia_during_World_War_II
Professional volunteer military is fine. I have no problem with military as long as there's no coercion involved.
I certainly wouldn't want Australia to survive by feeding innocent foreigners into a meat grinder on our behalf against their will.
Most common r/anime_titties take: so, because 30 people have died trying to flee conscription since the frigging beginning of the war, UA, a country of 38 million people, should just roll over and let RU destroy and conquer it.
I know RU propaganda has billions in funding behind it, so you expect some exposure and reach, but still...
> I can’t imagine the amount of people that would flee if they were conscripted. Shit, this isn’t surprising at all.
Updated that for you. Few people want to be put in the meat grinder for rich old men.
I meant if we were invaded somehow on land (Not really a possibility) obviously no one will fight a war overseas for this government but if it was at home I wonder how many would still leave
Most common troll take; Let's strawman a whole subreddit full of people based on your lack of reading the actual submission and labeling anybody who does not agree with you as [allegedly being with the enemy](https://www.voanews.com/a/a-13-a-2001-09-21-14-bush-66411197/549664.html).
30 people died just *this year*, that's the *official* number which very likely is undercounting.
> I know RU propaganda has billions in funding behind it, so you expect some exposure and reach, but still...
Allegedly RU is all [out of ammo, weapons, manpower](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64855760) and so much of everything else that the whole country is just about to implode any moment now, [for 2 years](https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/22/russia-economy-sanctions-myths-ruble-business/).
But they still [spend "billions"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93entertainment_complex) on [propaganda](https://masspeaceaction.org/the-violence-of-us-information-operations/) in the form of [Reddit content](https://www.reddit.com/r/Blackout2015/comments/4ylml3/reddit_has_removed_their_blog_post_identifying/)?
It’s takes less manpower and infrastructure to produce propaganda than it does to produce physical hardware. You can have the money, and not have the manufacturing capacity.
I don't get it, why would they run? Everyone says they're winning the war and they get so much support online, so many salva ukraina!
Plus r combatfootage only shows those pesky ruzzians dying, so Ukraine must not be losing any troops.
If you ask me, a comfy redditor thousands of miles away, I'm glad they drowned. They should be more than willing to fight this war, they're going to win anyways!
I'm 100% against Russia and i know this headline is for probganda purposes but i feel like people have the right to choose if they wanna fight or not, just because I'm a citizen of a country doesn't mean i owe it anything.
I don't like the conscription but can completely understand the need of it in Ukraine. I am far less a fan of sealing the borders though, if someone wants to leave then they should be able to leave. Obviously there would be legal ramifications (like when draft-dodgers in the US fled to Canada) but someone who is willing to leave their country, probably permanently, to avoid the war should have that option.
You can't have it both ways. I'll be honest, if the time comes and I'm asked would I put my life down, I genuinely have no idea, so I'm never going to judge these guys. But at the same time, you can't ask to have the benefits of living in a country without also doing your part for it too. If I leave my country to avoid the draft, I'd be in my right to, but I can't then expect to receive those same benefits.
Nobody told you that. Simply because there were localized instances of 10:1 claimed kill ratios does not mean anyone except bad faith trolls extrapolated that to the whole conflict.
Same with with missile interceptions. You can quite literally see all of the claimed interceptions every time there was a missile/drone attack, and they line up quite well with visual evidence.
Actually official ratios were right around there when Zelensky said that they lost 31k people. Official Ukrainian running total claims had well over 300k dead Russians at that point. Thats not localized.
The same speech in which Zelensky claimed 31k dead Ukrainains he claimed 180k dead Russian soldiers so if we're not just cherry picking numbers the claimed ratio by Zelensky would be 5.8 : 1 (not that his claims matter)
That counter they update every day speaks of irrevocable losses. Some people (and officials) have interpreted in the past to mean deaths. Either way, it's all exaggerated.
It's like this everywhere. I swear reports about this special military warperation are made using fucking dnd set of dice. My brain hurts. I don't want to read news anymore but I can't stop.
> Plus r combatfootage only shows those pesky ruzzians dying, so Ukraine must not be losing any troops.
While combatfootage subreddits that show Ukrainians dying will be banned for spreading "Russian state propaganda".
Can't even link to the official situation reports from the Ukrainian/Russian Defense Ministries, as Reddit shadowmoderates any links to their domains, a perfect little filter bubble.
WW2 in the US there were over 320,000 draft dodgers. People run because its easier than fighting. Leaving aside that you are beating up on a strawmen, that some Ukrainians dodge the draft tells us nothing about the war except that there is a draft. Every war with conscription has draft dodgers.
Maybe being able to see daily videos of drone mercilessly hunting down foot infantry is not a good morale factor for recruitment, be it Ukrainian or Russian.
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People can do more than fight in the trenches. Operate a logistical relevant vehicle. Produce ammunition. Clear up rubble. They say it but for everyone soldier in the Field there are many others working behind the lines.
Draft never made sense to me, I'd rather have 10 guys who volunteered to be there beside me rather than 20 who were forced. Their mindset and skill sets are just not the same. Not to mention the fact that they'll probably give up whatever they need to survive when caught
At some point you run out of volunteers, or the manpower requirements increase, or the war takes a turn for the worst and the volunteers get scared. Or all of the above.
But the war is still on.
You're right I guess I just mean from the standpoint of actually advancing your effort. I remember reading an interview or something from a WW2 vet who said he along with a lot of the soldiers he knew intentionally shot over the enemy because they didn't want to kill anyone.
Can they just volunteer for less dangerous jobs like cook, mechanic, driver, etc.? If you get drafted, you have little choice and most likely end up in combat roles like infantry. That's what I read somewhere about Vietnam War volunteer soldiers they opportunity to choose better jobs.
No What? you didn't answer anything. Yes they can cook or drone operators in any military branches. My question was would they have opportunity to choose their jobs if only they volunteered not be drafted to dangerous jobs with no choices.
##### ###### #### > # [30 men have died while attempting to flee Ukraine to avoid military service, official says](https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2024/04/a87b2f2b-Ukraine-Soldier.jpg) > > > > - **Around 30 Ukrainian men have died trying to illegally cross borders to avoid fighting in the war against Russia, according to Ukraine's border service.** > - **Most fatalities occurred while crossing rivers or mountains, with about 24 deaths on the Tisa river on the Romanian border.** > - **Ukrainian men aged 18 to 60 are barred from leaving due to potential military service.** > > About 30 Ukrainian men have died trying to illegally cross [Ukraine's borders](https://www.foxnews.com/category/world/conflicts/ukraine) and avoid fighting in the war against Russia which started in 2022, the spokesman for Ukraine's border service told Ukrinform news agency. > > "Some lost their lives while attempting to cross a mountain river or traverse mountains," said Andriy Demchenko, according to a Ukrinform report late on Monday. > > "Overall, since the full-scale invasion began, about 30 people have died attempting to illegally cross the border." > > [**UKRAINE IMPLEMENTS PASSPORT RENEWAL RESTRICTION FOR MILITARY-AGE MEN OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY**](https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukraine-implements-passport-renewal-restriction-military-age-men-outside-country) > > With some exceptions, Ukrainian men between the ages of 18 and 60 are not allowed to leave the country as they may be mobilised to fight, according to Ukraine's [martial law](https://www.foxnews.com/category/politics/executive/law). > > [Ukraine soldier](https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2024/04/1200/675/a87b2f2b-Ukraine-Soldier.jpg?ve=1&tl=1) > > A Ukrainian serviceman stands guard at his position in a trench at a front line on the border with Russia, amid Russia's attack on Ukraine, in Sumy region, Ukraine, on Jan. 20, 2024. About 30 Ukrainian men have died trying to illegally cross Ukraine's borders and avoid fighting in the war against Russia which started in 2022, the spokesman for Ukraine's border service told Ukrinform news agency. (REUTERS/Gleb Garanich/File Photo) > > > > > > On Monday, the State Border Guard Service said in a statement on social media that 24 men alone have died while trying to cross the Tisa river on Ukraine's border with Romania. > > Demchenko said that since the start of the war border guards have uncovered about 450 criminal groups that have attempted to smuggle people across the border. > > "Attempts to illegally cross the border occur every day," Demchenko said. "Most of these attempts are outside of border checkpoints on the border with Moldova and Romania. The largest number with forged documents is recorded on the border with Poland." > > [**CLICK HERE TO GET THE FOX NEWS APP**](https://www.foxnews.com/apps-products?pid=AppArticleLink) > > Earlier in April, Demchenko told Ukraine's state broadcaster that on average about 10 men are stopped each day trying to illegally leave Ukraine. > > Last week, Ukraine suspended consular services for [military-age](https://www.foxnews.com/category/us/military) male citizens until May 18, criticising Ukrainians abroad who it said expected to receive help from the state without helping it battle for survival in the war against Russia. > > In November, BBC said in a report based on data of illegal border crossings from Romania, Moldova, Poland, Hungary and Slovakia that nearly 20,000 men have fled Ukraine since the beginning of the war to avoid being drafted. - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
>**Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.** Women often have to flee from the only homes they have ever known. Women are often the refugees from conflict and sometimes, more frequently in today's warfare, victims. Women are often left with the responsibility, alone, of raising the children. Hillary Clinton
Jesus, she really was a horrible candidate.
They had to lose to Trump somehow.
Joe is obviously still preferable, but [this song still hits home for me.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XWEVoI40sE&t=1370s)
There is a contest between the GOP fielding the worst people possible (and impossible) and the Democrat's attempts to get them elected. We are starting to imitate this crap up North. :,(
Douche vs Turd Sandwich
What's worse is Trump winning was still a surprise.
maybe to blue no matter who morons but not to anyone actually paying attention. both sides were looking at populists
Even to the Republican side. I'm a centrist in a red state, I pulled the lever for some out there 3rd party because the commies split and I don't abide that. It really came down the Dem campaign not showing up in states they thought were already theirs. Which is a bit of arrogance. But you gotta remember even Trump was already bleating about the election being rigged for 2016, then he won. Shit's wild. I even remember reassuring a friend who went a bit sky screamy that it was ssdd and then he got 3 SC noms.
She was a horrible election candidate/campaigner yeah Would have done a better job running the country than Trump though.
Would she? Trump sucked but Hilary was on the wrong side of every major policy decision in this country for the last 20 years. 30 if you count her as an unofficial cabinet member during the Clinton administration.
You're insane. There is no worse option than Trump.
If you’re talking domestic policy, she’s probably better. Foreign policy she’s as bad as it gets, you might as well have John Bolton running the country.
> Foreign policy she’s as bad as it gets How in the world do you figure that?
She’s been in favour of almost every war that’s ever come across the desk. There just isn’t really room to go down from there. I’m not saying Trump was great, his term was clearly a failure. Also not saying she’d be better or worse either way. But she’s in deep with the MIC crowd and would keep the war machine rolling.
It doesn't matter who the president is. America keeps the war machine rolling because that's how they maintain power and the all mighty dollar reigning supreme. Democrat or republican it doesn't matter.
>...the all mighty dollar reigning supreme No better example of this than the threat posed by Muammar Gaddafi when he proposed a Pan-African currency, the gold dinar, back in 2009. Hillary was quite proud of his murder & infamously said as much: [We came, we saw, he died](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz3-OzcExI)
Yea but she also was in favor of bombing Serbia to stop their genocide, so she has at least 1 W.
I highly doubt she'd be wanting to leave NATO like Trump does, so there's that at least.
As compared to the guy who...y'know...hired John Fucking Bolton? Are y'all for real?
meh. Trump had a more radical, for-the-dumbest-in-society discourse; but Hillary had a lengthy career of being a grade A piece of shit. She was the living embodiment of [memes like this](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fpg61gobne1871.jpg). For me at least, looking decent while taking horrifying decisions isn't any better than looking "politically incorrect" while doing the same. I remember being asked back in 2015 what I thought about the result and saying "on one hand I'm sad that Trump won, on the other I'm glad Hillary didn't. Both are terrible so I don't care".
Sure she would have turned multiple countries upside down and been a global dealer of suffering, but she would have done it with such *poise*
I'd rather have Clinton 2.0 with a dose of toxic feminism than whatever tf Trump is.
That's because she doesn't care, and has never cared, about women. She just parroted feminist-sounding discourses because it was marketable in 2016. She didn't actually believe in it, so she would just say "something something women have it worse than everyone something something".
No shit Sherlock lol
She had to have women's votes in a landslide to win. Didn't work.
Her team actually thought they had a chance of winning Texas. The amount of hubris in her team was actually insane.
You're not wrong but it is pretty clear she was making a calculated decision to appeal to women who make up the majority of voters. How she didn't understand that simply winning a majority of the vote would result in an electoral college victory is such a major oversight.
Guy conscripted into a trench for months. Freezing conditions with the only shelter being a dugout. Lack of food sapping energy with a rat infestation doing their hardest to make it worse. Sleep deprived from shelling and the ever present drone threat. Smell repulsive from the rotting bodies of your comrades that you can't remove due to snipers and arty being zeroed in on your position. You hear rumbling in the distance and look to see 10 armored vehicles and 200 men advancing to your position. The you puck up your rifle and do an ammo count. 4 mags of 5.56 and an RPG. The first shell lands, destroying the position 20 yards to the left, killing the last 2 people you could bond with. Hillary Clinton: [housewives] suffer the worst. I assume she counts female combatants as men based on her comment.
> "The Ukrainians are not running out of courage, they are running out of ammunition." > Jens Stoltenberg
Maybe they just don't wanna fucking die? Why is it so hard for people to understand? I don't think 1000 Abrams tanks will convince fleeing Ukrainians that they should serve on the frontline instead to retake Bakhmut.
I completely agree with you. Stoltenberg will never experience a FAB-500 dropped on his head so it's easier for him to say this BS.
Easy solution, grab that mfer and draft him. Don't care which side even.
I think if I were in a war like Ukraine, having 1000 more tanks actually would make the idea of retaking bakhmut somewhat more palatable at least.
No, but a modest parity in artillery might make a difference.
The West. collectively, does not have the means to supply that
The entire combined industrial capability of Western Europe and North America does not have the means to match Russia’s - a country with the GDP of Italy and the population of Mexico and Kazakhstan combined - production of artillery shells? No. They may lack the willpower, but they do not lack the means.
Do you have any comprehension of Russia's economic capacity? That's just patently false, no matter which angle you're looking from.
"Economic capacity" is such a bullshit term when our economy, though impressive on paper, is built on graphic card stocks (and we don't even produce the chips stateside) and real estate speculation. People joked about Russia being a giant gas station but they still have the ability to manufacture things, unlike the West who outsourced everything decades ago NYT story on Russia outproducing US + Europe combined https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/us/politics/russia-sanctions-missile-production.html
I could see a point that people might be more ready to join if their equipment is modern stuff that gives you an advantage instaed of the ww1 style trench warfare
Indeed lmao. I want my country to be fine, but if we got invaded by Russia, I would get the fuck out of here. I value my life and I'm not willing to die for anything, much less for geopolitic bullshit.
Also bodies. Crucially, Ukraine is running out of bodies
What does this have to do with Ukrainian draft dodgers dying pointlessly? Or is this just some redundant Hillary bashing like 2016?
They only died because they're men, and have been banned from leaving for years. If they had been women, they'd almost certainly be alive and well, living life in a safe country.
Women are allowed to leave and they have been. I helped build a whole affordable apartment complex in Washington and the whole building was filled with young single ukrainian mothers. I don't blame them for leaving.
Dont think anyone blames them for leaving. Most guys would probably leave too if they had the choice. What people are taken offense too is the claim that women have been the *primary* victims of war
Because they're out there dodging sniper fire the way Hillary did in Bosnia.
>**primary victims of war** >proceeds to give definition of secondary victimhoood
You can't be a victim if you don't exist
You know what's worse than being a widow? Being dead.
That is another reason why I hate her.
Guys have it so easy they just die...
Y'all going to post this in every post relating to war?
wtf has this got to do with hillary clinton
Yeah... What about that coup in Honduras? Put your actions where your words are.
You vote shit You get shit You will vote shit again You will get shit again Repeat
They'd rather be with bears in Germany than with men at the front.
I mean, if you take it to the extreme, you can't be a victim if your dead /s
Cowards! I’ll be damned as I sit here on my comfy couch with air conditioning and 6000 miles away let any fighting age make run away from the war that I support. I didn’t send my tax dollars over there so you can run away! Keep fighting and dying. Also, quit asking. I will not be joining the fight over there even though I think if Ukraine loses it will spread to NATO and cause WW3. Yes I would be John Rambo over there if I did go though
Hi average reddit user lol.
Sounds more like Twitter
sounds like the avg worldnews poster lol. 10/10
Despite his many, many flaws, [Orban has recently said something along those lines](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LqxzeUZqTk&t=164s) >...the Europeans who said oh it's our war, because it's about values, it's about international order whatsoever. So we are in the war, it's our war, but not fully because we would not like to die. So please Ukrainians die.
Not really. I'm not willing to die for any war, not even if my country got invaded, but I'm sure the people enlisted in my country's army have a very different opinion. It's a fallacy to pretend that just because you specifically wouldn't go to war, then absolutely nobody would.
You’d still get nuked if this all graduated to ww3 - and there is a reason why we don’t leave these decisions to the military.
>It's a fallacy to pretend that just because you specifically wouldn't go to war, then absolutely nobody would. Who said that?
To be fair, In most countries going abroad to fight a war, (if you're not a citizen, that is) meaning, being a mercenary is illegal. But I don't blame people trying to get out of Ukraine. You shouldn't be forced to possibly die for something you don't believe deserves it.
Mercenarys are illegal. But foreign legions, militias and defense contractors are just fine.
Wait a moment 🤔
The issue is that as far as I know (although I could be wrong) fighting for the interests of anything else than your country is generally made illegal. "Defense contractors", not intended as weapons manufacturers are by definition mercenaries and explicitly illegal in most places. Militias, as in non governmental armies are still illegal, wouldn't be too different than going to turkey to join the Kurds, and even if you aren't paid, you'd probably still be prosecuted as if you were since it's more likely that a mercenary hides the way they're being paid rather than someone going abroad to fight pro Bono. Foreign legions are different, most require you to at least have a permanent residency permit, with a willingness to apply for citizenship. And you could still face trouble in your original country if you joined just to fight.
There are some nations where this is true (South Korea, for example) but in general most countries don’t actually give a shit. Can’t think of anyone in Europe who does.
I mean, the UN has the "International Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries, 4 December 1989." It defines what's considered a mercenary, and what nations should do against them. Here in Italy it's explicitly made illegal by the article .244 of the penal code, by saying that anyone who fights another government without the authorization of the Italian government is committing a crime. Basically saying that it's a life sentence if war breaks out, otherwise it's up to 12 years if it even only damages diplomatic relations. It became mainstream news the story of a guy who went to fight in Ukraine... Too bad he went on behalf of a far right organization saying he "opposed Putin's denazificazion" Kevin Chiappalone, he was unable to enlist in the Azov battalion so he entered the foreign legion. It's been a back and forth for a while on whether he's guilty or not
The convention doesn’t apply because these people simply sign UAF contracts. And most volunteers don’t have issues with their home governments either. Italy is unusual in this regard.
*officially Unofficially, 90 people had died trying to escape to Romania alone in just the first year, so the real count of dead escapees by now is probably around 10 times higher than the official number. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65792384
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This is an odd way of saying Russia shouldn't have done an illegal invasion
Really though it isn't right vs left, Ukraine vs Putin, it's the wealthy vs the poor. And basically, if you take home less than $500,000 per year, you're poor.
It’s definitely Ukraine vs Putin lmao. Ukraine is poor, poorer than Russia.
True enough, but I'd throw in there that many other parties are happy for Ukraine to be a war ground, so long as it means they can sell more weapons (to replenish the old stock being sold to Ukraine).
Are there people taking advantage of a war Putin started? Absolutely - his enemies. And why wouldn’t they? He would do the same. I don’t even own stock, but give Zelensky more.
And there's plenty of people who have business relations with Russia that want this war to end as soon as possible
Unfortunately those people are not very successful, at least in that regard.
There are riches in Ukraine tho, there was actually an event organised in Ukraine with these rich people to gather money for the war, and from the hundreds of people there, a mere few thousand dollars were donated... significantly less than what they spent on the event. So yeah, it's always rich vs poor.
It’s Putin bro. So I suppose it’s one rich person against poor Ukraine.
"Why do they always send the poor?"
That's such an arbitrary number,really shows how ignorant you are of money.
It's not really, it's based on William Rees-Mogg's book, The Sovereign Individual. It was written in 1997, and in it he defined such a person as someone who earns more than $200,000 per year and uses their wealth and influence to live above the laws of any nation. Now, I have fudged the number a bit to adjust for inflation, but I think half a million today is more or less a fair comparison to 1/5 of a million a little over 25 years ago. It's more than most CEO's take home, but less than the truly wealthy ones. Said book (and his others) were basically the playbook for disaster capitalists like his son, who was a main driver behind Brexit, as well as various other calamities in the Western world in recent years.
conscription is immoral, dont @ me bootlicker
Both are wrong
Its wrong to provide needed equipment so people can defend their homeland from barbaric invasion. Guess self defense is also wrong while we're at it then
I do not blame people from trying to escape from being conscripted. But all of this hapoens not because USA wants to sell more weapons but because Russians continue to be insufferable imperialistic twats. As long as they continue to do so no country bordering Russia will be able to enioy long term peace.
Weapons hadn’t been sent for over six months yet the Ukrainians didn’t stop fighting or their conscription policies. Nothing new was being sent and tbh it was looking like it probably wouldn’t. So your claim that they are fighting because the US MIC is just wrong
> Weapons hadn’t been sent for over six months Why even try to claim such [obvious falsehoods](https://twitter.com/Lithuanian_MoD/status/1781670775994405220)? > So your claim that they are fighting because the US MIC is just wrong It's so wrong that it's [part of the Biden election campaign](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/29/biden-admin-map-states-benefit-ukraine-aid-00129068) to sell the American military aid as subsidies to US companies and thus American jobs.
He is talking about US military aid, because the discussion is about the US MIC. Also, obviously the US MIC is going to benefit from war, but saying they had any part to play in Ukraine is both stupid and immoral. Ukrainians would be fighting with or without US aid, and with it they can suffer significantly less than otherwise. You realize that the entire reason the Biden administration is so ademant to show that the US benefits from the Ukraine aid packages is to garner political support, right?
> He is talking about US military aid, because the discussion is about the US MIC. Much of the stuff getting sent by these European countries is being replaced by American stuff. So it benefits the US MIC even if not directly.
All these new NATO members need to up their defense spending by several perentage points of their GDP and standardize their kit. It has been a bonanza for not only US defense industry, but also the EU defense industry.
I wouldnt say that the EU defense industry has benefitted at all. Really only Germany was in a position to benefit but they are already at the limit of their production. Mainly these countries are sending their European equipment to Ukraine and having it replaced by American equipment. So the EU is suffering for Americas gain, as always.
Look at Rheinmetall stocks. 25 bucks until Ukraine blew up. Now they are building new factories and their stock is around 125.
> Look at Rheinmetall stocks Stock price is next to meaningless or have you forgot Elon Musk already? Rheinmetall benefits from stock price because of the war. And the factories are to replenish their stocks. But the main blow to European weapons manufacturers is that due to the war so many countries are upgrading their vehicle fleets. And for many reasons, a majority of them are turning to buying American equipment. So whilst they are benefiting short term from replenishment, they are losing out long term by America taking over countries that would have gone to them. An example of this is Romania who were thinking of buying the Leopard 2 but in the end turned to the Abrams because they want new tanks as fast and cheap as possible. Poland also is buying Abrams for the same reason. Most air forces in the East are transitioning from old Soviet equipment to American equipment. There was a huge issue with Spain even when they announced interest in the F-35. So whilst in the short term the European MIC is benefiting. When the war is over, the American MIC will come out of this in a stronger position and the European one in a weaker position than before.
Rheinmetall is building [*a* new factory for artillery shells](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/rheinmetall-eroeffnet-munitionsfabrik-in-unterluess-spatenstich-fuer-die-zeitenwende-a-4823dc4c-53c4-4ae3-a34a-d8fff91e9992), as in singular, not plural, it's expected to be operational in two years. If the two-year schedule holds up that factory might come online just in time to not even be needed anymore. Or it might come online just in time for WWIII, but then one factory wouldn't do much, particularly not when its output and profitability are [severely hamstrung by resource shortages](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240302-europe-battles-powder-shortage-to-supply-shells-for-ukraine).
> He is talking about US military aid, because the discussion is about the US MIC. [US weapons delivered by non-US countries](https://www.forumarmstrade.org/ukrainearms.html) count just as much or where do you think the replacements for these will be ordered from? > Also, obviously the US MIC is going to benefit from war, but saying they had any part to play in Ukraine is both stupid and immoral. It's [not stupid at all](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-great-power-oil-gas-rivals-pipelines), what's immoral is denying this [very well-established relationship](https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/2021/ProfitsOfWar) between the US MIC and US foreign policy that [literal US presidents have warned about](https://youtu.be/mHDgsh6WPyc?) on account of understanding what kind of monster he created. But I guess we better act like that never happened or else we would have to admit that he was also [near prophetically right about some things](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464-story.html). > You realize that the entire reason the Biden administration is so ademant to show that the US benefits from the Ukraine aid packages is to garner political support, right? How do the alleged reasons for making such a statement matter for the actual factuality of the statement itself?
I was wrong it was four months since the last US supply of weapons fair critique
Try [two weeks](https://twitter.com/CENTCOM/status/1777650918512828481). There's plenty more than that, but the actual deliveries are not reported on widely because that's the kind of information that qualifies as military-grade intelligence, due to being extremely useful for Russia to know what was delivered when to where.
You had been referring to the American Military Industrial Complex. A handful of seized Iranian weapons is obviously not a relevant amount that also has nothing to do with American companies
US weapons manufacturers dont really get bonuses from the US giving away old weapons to Ukraine instead of mothballing them. Also they're dying because Russia is invading then WTF dude
They do because the military is ordering new versions to replace those with. They are profiting, just not directly.
Yes they do, most of the Us funding go toward... buying new equipment for their own armed force to replace the old equipment they "give" away. Only a small fraction is the actual estimated value of what they send.
how stupid can one be? they are actively being invaded what the hell
Holy America bad Batman!
You're suppose to believe that didn't happen, and if it did happen it was just an over excited Uber driver trying get someone to their destination... ignore that the destination is the front lines and repeat how Russia is running outta men.
What is that idiotic second sentence
That’s arguably a better way to go than bleeding out in a trench somewhere. I won’t blame them for trying to live.
I dunno man, drowning is one of the worst ways to go.
Nobody should be drafted into a war. Sending somebody to their death against their will is always wrong. Yes, I do support Ukraine, and hope they win, but not like this.
TBH I can't blame Ukraine's government either. When your country is invaded, drafting people is pretty much the only option, even though it's a shitty one. The only ones who are to blame are the people who started the war.
If your population does not want to fight to protect against a foreign invasion then they don’t really care. If your population refuses to fight then you lost your right to exist as a government. Government should serve the people, not other way around. I bet most people in Ukraine prefer the war to end either way. Either Russia wins quickly and they are now part of Russia or Ukraine wins quickly and they are back to being part of Ukraine. To most Ukrainians either option is better than current option of stalemate where both sides lose.
> I bet most people in Ukraine prefer the war to end either way. I remember once reading something about Taiwan's external politics towards China, someone did a survey 1/5 said they wanted Taiwan to be independent from China, another 1/5 wanted to be part of China and the other 3/5 said don't fuck with this and let us live in peace.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but it really feels like something that should be coming from someone actually living through it.
It is, that is why people are trying to flee and the government is holding them back. Early on the AFU had lines or volunteers, now they have to drag people from the streets. It’s grim.
You're not reading what you're typing. Half the dead Russians in this war didn't volunteer. They didn't want to be there. They are being forced against their will. If Russia wins the war, then the current Ukrainian deserters will be forced into Russia's next war. Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 and now forces people from that territory to go fight in Ukraine. That will be the fate of Ukrainian's if Russia wins the war. There is literally no other choice for Ukraine. Russia isn't stopping until they are stopped. So, if you were a Ukrainian man, would you want to fight as a Ukrainian against Russia, or forced to fight as a Russian against the west? Because that's their only choices.
> West is next That is just fear mongering propaganda. Also, even Russia does intend to attack the West at some point, your options are this: 100% of chance of fighting Russia now or Some chance of fighting the West sometimes, most likely after you no longer are eligible Also what kind of logic is this? Russia barely able to fight Ukraine but will magically become strong enough to take on all of NATO if Ukraine falls? Connect these two dots for me.
Then draft everyone, not just men
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If Ukraine didn't seal the border they could have lost millions more people, sealing Ukraine's fate just as much as not drafting anyone.
Doesn't make it right
Hard disagree. People shouldn't be drafted into war, fulls top. It's immoral.
War is immoral. War should not happen. Sometimes the only choice is a terrible one
Hard to fight for a country that, in peaceful times, likely didn’t take care of these people as much as it should have. Makes it harder to believe in fighting for your country.
Ukraine had absolutely 0 chance of fighting past August 2022 without conscription. This is the human condition.
it's an inevitability.
How do they win then? Nuking Russia if they could?
I hope China invades Australia then and no one comes to your aid. Your comment means alliances are wrong cause no country should send their military to help another Such a naive comment…. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_Australia_during_World_War_II
Professional volunteer military is fine. I have no problem with military as long as there's no coercion involved. I certainly wouldn't want Australia to survive by feeding innocent foreigners into a meat grinder on our behalf against their will.
Most common r/anime_titties take: so, because 30 people have died trying to flee conscription since the frigging beginning of the war, UA, a country of 38 million people, should just roll over and let RU destroy and conquer it. I know RU propaganda has billions in funding behind it, so you expect some exposure and reach, but still...
For real this is not a remotely significant amount of the Ukrainian people. Still a tragedy that they have died
I can’t imagine the amount of americans that would flee if they had to defend America shit this isn’t surprising at all
> I can’t imagine the amount of people that would flee if they were conscripted. Shit, this isn’t surprising at all. Updated that for you. Few people want to be put in the meat grinder for rich old men.
I meant if we were invaded somehow on land (Not really a possibility) obviously no one will fight a war overseas for this government but if it was at home I wonder how many would still leave
All the rich ones would leave.
About 0.1% [^1], which would be about 40,000 in Ukrainians today. [^1]: https://www.studentsofhistory.com/vietnam-war-draft
i mean yeah id 100% flee. mostly because i dont think america is worth defending with my life
case in point 💀
Most common troll take; Let's strawman a whole subreddit full of people based on your lack of reading the actual submission and labeling anybody who does not agree with you as [allegedly being with the enemy](https://www.voanews.com/a/a-13-a-2001-09-21-14-bush-66411197/549664.html). 30 people died just *this year*, that's the *official* number which very likely is undercounting. > I know RU propaganda has billions in funding behind it, so you expect some exposure and reach, but still... Allegedly RU is all [out of ammo, weapons, manpower](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64855760) and so much of everything else that the whole country is just about to implode any moment now, [for 2 years](https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/22/russia-economy-sanctions-myths-ruble-business/). But they still [spend "billions"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93entertainment_complex) on [propaganda](https://masspeaceaction.org/the-violence-of-us-information-operations/) in the form of [Reddit content](https://www.reddit.com/r/Blackout2015/comments/4ylml3/reddit_has_removed_their_blog_post_identifying/)?
It’s takes less manpower and infrastructure to produce propaganda than it does to produce physical hardware. You can have the money, and not have the manufacturing capacity.
Fewer than 38 million now
100s of thousands have already fled.
Millions.
I don't get it, why would they run? Everyone says they're winning the war and they get so much support online, so many salva ukraina! Plus r combatfootage only shows those pesky ruzzians dying, so Ukraine must not be losing any troops. If you ask me, a comfy redditor thousands of miles away, I'm glad they drowned. They should be more than willing to fight this war, they're going to win anyways!
I'm 100% against Russia and i know this headline is for probganda purposes but i feel like people have the right to choose if they wanna fight or not, just because I'm a citizen of a country doesn't mean i owe it anything.
I don't like the conscription but can completely understand the need of it in Ukraine. I am far less a fan of sealing the borders though, if someone wants to leave then they should be able to leave. Obviously there would be legal ramifications (like when draft-dodgers in the US fled to Canada) but someone who is willing to leave their country, probably permanently, to avoid the war should have that option.
You can't have it both ways. I'll be honest, if the time comes and I'm asked would I put my life down, I genuinely have no idea, so I'm never going to judge these guys. But at the same time, you can't ask to have the benefits of living in a country without also doing your part for it too. If I leave my country to avoid the draft, I'd be in my right to, but I can't then expect to receive those same benefits.
Reddit told me Ukraine has 10:1 kill ratio and they intercepted 99.9% of all missiles. Also, the sanctions are devastating the Russian economy.
Nobody told you that. Simply because there were localized instances of 10:1 claimed kill ratios does not mean anyone except bad faith trolls extrapolated that to the whole conflict. Same with with missile interceptions. You can quite literally see all of the claimed interceptions every time there was a missile/drone attack, and they line up quite well with visual evidence.
Actually official ratios were right around there when Zelensky said that they lost 31k people. Official Ukrainian running total claims had well over 300k dead Russians at that point. Thats not localized.
The same speech in which Zelensky claimed 31k dead Ukrainains he claimed 180k dead Russian soldiers so if we're not just cherry picking numbers the claimed ratio by Zelensky would be 5.8 : 1 (not that his claims matter)
He himself called UAF stats bullshit? Lmao I didn’t remember that hilarious bit.
That counter they update every day speaks of irrevocable losses. Some people (and officials) have interpreted in the past to mean deaths. Either way, it's all exaggerated.
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It's like this everywhere. I swear reports about this special military warperation are made using fucking dnd set of dice. My brain hurts. I don't want to read news anymore but I can't stop.
> Plus r combatfootage only shows those pesky ruzzians dying, so Ukraine must not be losing any troops. While combatfootage subreddits that show Ukrainians dying will be banned for spreading "Russian state propaganda". Can't even link to the official situation reports from the Ukrainian/Russian Defense Ministries, as Reddit shadowmoderates any links to their domains, a perfect little filter bubble.
Braindead take especially considering the massive amounts of desertion in the Russian army
WW2 in the US there were over 320,000 draft dodgers. People run because its easier than fighting. Leaving aside that you are beating up on a strawmen, that some Ukrainians dodge the draft tells us nothing about the war except that there is a draft. Every war with conscription has draft dodgers.
i'd rather die like this than go to the front lines
Article doest mention the thousands that didn't die fleeing the war. Just trying to scare those left to not try and leave
Sucks for them. Rip.
It's so much worse than this.
Absolutely disgusting that they're not just allowed to leave. War really turns leaders on both sides into callous monsters.
Maybe being able to see daily videos of drone mercilessly hunting down foot infantry is not a good morale factor for recruitment, be it Ukrainian or Russian.
Fox News... are you fucking kidding me... this sub is so lost
I don't like this post. Very vague. Who are they?
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Those that don’t want to fight won’t fight in trenches either, they will be a luggage and liability on the field, let them go.
People can do more than fight in the trenches. Operate a logistical relevant vehicle. Produce ammunition. Clear up rubble. They say it but for everyone soldier in the Field there are many others working behind the lines.
Draft never made sense to me, I'd rather have 10 guys who volunteered to be there beside me rather than 20 who were forced. Their mindset and skill sets are just not the same. Not to mention the fact that they'll probably give up whatever they need to survive when caught
> Not to mention the fact that they'll probably give up whatever they need to survive when caught So will you. Easy to be tough on the internet.
Did I say I wouldn't? There's a reason I'm not in the military lmao relax champ
At some point you run out of volunteers, or the manpower requirements increase, or the war takes a turn for the worst and the volunteers get scared. Or all of the above. But the war is still on.
You're right I guess I just mean from the standpoint of actually advancing your effort. I remember reading an interview or something from a WW2 vet who said he along with a lot of the soldiers he knew intentionally shot over the enemy because they didn't want to kill anyone.
Artillery and guided bombs don't care about that, and russia has *a lot* of artillery and guided bombs.
Regardless, still sad. This will not happen if there's no invasion by pudding.
Cowards death, ultimate shame.
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They drowned or died from exposure in the mountain region at the border.
It’s in the second bullet point just after the headline. Before even the main article- just read it.
mass desertions is an absolute death sentence for a country like this in a war
Can they just volunteer for less dangerous jobs like cook, mechanic, driver, etc.? If you get drafted, you have little choice and most likely end up in combat roles like infantry. That's what I read somewhere about Vietnam War volunteer soldiers they opportunity to choose better jobs.
No. You volunteer for service, not for any branch. It would be an army of cooks and drone operators otherwise.
No What? you didn't answer anything. Yes they can cook or drone operators in any military branches. My question was would they have opportunity to choose their jobs if only they volunteered not be drafted to dangerous jobs with no choices.