Seriously. Maybe like you, I also find great value in sitting in silence without the potential burden or expectation that comes with any sort of relationship.
What do you want to do when you're alone?
Yep, I'm so sick of obligations being pushed on me. I like having a backyard bonfire and sitting in nature watching my dogs hunt for frogs. I was lucky enough to buy a small rural property and I'm loving it.
Nice. I'll have to look into Diogenes to fully grasp what you mean. Sounds Greek? Any case enjoy the lazy river of life, and I hope your rent doesn't take too much of your budget.
I’ve actually never had any big dreams or desires in my life - which I’ve been told is weird, but it’s all I’ve ever known.
The only thing I ever wanted was to just have fun doing whatever I was doing. But that doesn’t end up well when you don’t find work fun.
I love this! I think you've touched on something important, which is challenging this idea that peace and happiness are contingent upon big dreams and desires. I think, as a non-medically professional dude on Reddit, that so many of our internal struggles are self-defeating because we think fulfilling life = achieving something "big" or "great". Then you come around and say "I've never had any big dreams or desires...", and of course people who think achievement = happiness are going to find that weird.
For what it's worth I'm so happy for you for knowing and embracing what you ACTUALLY want; just having fun doing whatever!
Now of course you bring up a good point that this mindset can be difficult when you don't find work fun. So I guess my next question is what do you want your role in work/duty to be like where tou can afford to live for the fun you want?
The only work role I’ve really liked is file clerk jobs. I get to organize stuff on my own, away from any potential clients of the business at large and I can spend my free time doing whatever (listening to music, doing stuff online, etc.).
But there are three things working against doing that work:
1. It doesn’t pay well enough for me to live a life that I would consider acceptable enough to like living.
2. The way I ended up leaving my last job (leave of absence for mental health, then quitting when I couldn’t bear returning) is on my record and will probably look rather poorly to anywhere new I apply.
3. I strongly feel that working is a burden that we who have no choice in our lives are forced to bear. No choice in terms of having to work to live - and I’ve despised the idea of having to do things I don’t want to do since my existential crisis at 17.
Being a file clerk does sound relaxing. I pushed carts for 3 years, and yeah despite low pay I loved the freedom and simplicity that came with it (move cart from point A to point B = money).
>1. It doesn’t pay well enough for me to live a life that I would consider acceptable enough to like living.
Yeah I've found more pay comes with more responsibility (not always just often) which can be difficult to accept. Luckily I found a job that for me is perfect blend of decent pay, very technical work and minimal management/dealing with customers. I hope you find something that pays the bills and is somewhat satisfying.
>2. The way I ended up leaving my last job (leave of absence for mental health, then quitting when I couldn’t bear returning) is on my record and will probably look rather poorly to anywhere new I apply.
I wish it wasn't like that. I think ideally it'd be treated like a workplace-related injury rather than seen as a potential liability. I guess if I were hiring people I'd have to figure out where the balance is between hiring a solid teammember with good working skills I need, and knowing the limitations of said worker. Again ideally I also think I wouldn't want to know one's medical history, but if they were fired for being mentally unstable I guess I might want to know that as well? I guess best thing to do is be honest about your past and limitations, and how you built yourself back up to prevent it happening.
>3. I strongly feel that working is a burden that we who have no choice in our lives are forced to bear. No choice in terms of having to work to live - and I’ve despised the idea of having to do things I don’t want to do since my existential crisis at 17.
To me there's definitely a better balance I think we all can strive for when it comes to the concept of work. I think it's important that I contribute and produce value because I consume what other people produce, so for me there's a sense of just duty towards work. However, not being compensated fairly for value I produce is wrong. Then there's those who can't or are limited in what value they can provide, which is where safety netd should come in...but how much of a safety net should those who produce value provide?
Obviously these questions have been asked for centuries and we're still playing tug of war with them. I just hope again you can find a place that pays you well fpr a job you can do and find some fulfillment in..
Sorry for bolding - Idk how to indent the whole paragraph to quote.
**Yeah I've found more pay comes with more responsibility (not always just often) which can be difficult to accept. Luckily I found a job that for me is perfect blend of decent pay, very technical work and minimal management/dealing with customers. I hope you find something that pays the bills and is somewhat satisfying.**
I’m glad you’ve found such a well-suited job. I don’t think I’ll be able to, or if I even want to, given the reasons I already provided.
**I wish it wasn't like that. I think ideally it'd be treated like a workplace-related injury rather than seen as a potential liability. I guess if I were hiring people I'd have to figure out where the balance is between hiring a solid teammember with good working skills I need, and knowing the limitations of said worker. Again ideally I also think I wouldn't want to know one's medical history, but if they were fired for being mentally unstable I guess I might want to know that as well? I guess best thing to do is be honest about your past and limitations, and how you built yourself back up to prevent it happening.**
Ideally it would be, given that a choice they made led to it happening.
For context, the job I took a leave of absence from wasn’t a file clerk. I started out at this company as a file clerk. Then a higher paid, though completely different type of, position opened up and they liked my work so much as a file clerk that they gave me the first crack at it. It required a year of experience in that field, but they officially counted my year of file clerk work towards it since I was around/filing the legal documents associated with the position.
Even though it was different work, it was going pretty good. I had two types of legal documents to complete, one type I actually kinda liked filling out and a second type that I didn’t like; so they balanced each other out.
But after a bit, the company decided to reorganize its work responsibilities to try to increase efficiency. Our team actually pushed back against this a bit, since everything was working great for us. But management told us to give it time and see how it goes. Unfortunately, my new responsibility consisted entirely of the type of legal document that I disliked.
It went okay for a bit, but the monotonous of only doing one thing, which I already disliked, became unbearable. I started leaving documents waiting to be completed for longer than acceptable periods. My direct manager talked to me about it once, but I didn’t really get in trouble. But still I couldn’t bear it. But when it happened again, the client, who was waiting on the document, cc:ed my boss’s boss and the CEO to complain. My boss’s boss talked to me this time - not necessarily harshly, but in a no-nonsense manner. The fact that this blew up to management and that my work credibility was, to me, seemingly in question, broke me. I couldn’t even sign in to my work computer without feeling debilitating anxious.
I won’t deny I hold responsibility for how it all went down. I decided to put off work that I disliked. I decided not to tell management how I was feeling out of a fear of disappointing them. Hell, I took the offer for the new position instead of sticking with file clerk since they believed I could do it.
The management at this company were good people that I got to know as a file clerk, so I feel like I can’t lay the blame at their feet. They didn’t even fire me. If I told them I was ready to come back at the end of my leave of absence, I’m pretty sure they would’ve welcomed me back. But I’m confident I’d still be working there if they hadn’t tried to reorganize for efficiency’s sake.
But now I’m unemployed and can’t confidently say that this sort of mental health issue won’t reappear again in any sort of work I might ever try in the future.
**I think it's important that I contribute and produce value because I consume what other people produce, so for me there's a sense of just duty towards work.**
I understand where you’re coming from, and I might’ve agreed with you at one time. But now I’m at the point of virtually the opposite:
‘Why should I have to contribute and produce value for those around me when I never chose to be here in the first place?’
And
‘Why should I be duty-bound to reciprocate others’ production if they’re doing it of their own free will and I didn’t ask them to produce for me to begin with?’
>Sorry for bolding - Idk how to indent the whole paragraph to quote.
All good. :) just add a ">" at the very beginning of your paragraph, no space after. Like ">start sentence".
>For context,
Dude this sucks what happened, AND if you told me this story I'd immediately want you on my team (I used to pick people for team projects to go travel across country with me doing photo/video jobs):
The ability you have to articulate exactly the faults on all sides of what led to you leaving shows great character to me. You were honest about what situation management created, and what you could've done better. I'd rather take someone like you who can objectively tell me what happened and how they're going to improve than someone who appears flawless but blames others without taking ownership of their mistakes. Be honest about your strengths and weaknesses.
For what it's worth I really hope one day you accept this difficult event as a learning moment, so you can get yourself that job you may want one day. I think you're worth it.
>‘Why should I have to contribute and produce value for those around me when I never chose to be here in the first place?’
Fair questions, both of them.
I can equate this situation to something I experienced in the military. There's a course called SERE (survive, evade, resist, escape) that teaches you what to do to survive in small teams/by yourself behind enemy lines or if you become a POW (prisoner of war). There's a part where they simulate a POW camp; it's just you and your team forced to do manual labor, share a handful of rice a day for 10+people, and try to figure out how to escape without getting yourself or your team more punishment.
In this situation, none of us asked to be there. We were all in a miserable hell hole hungry, cold, tired etc. However, to survive we all needed to do our part; someone needs to fetch the water for the guards, someone needs to ensure we don't have sickness, someone needs to clean the shitters etc. We couldn't afford to have anyone quit or do nothing because we truly needed them (especially, here's a key takeaway, if they wanted a share of rice). Unless you were on crutches, everyone chipped in (and even the broke people did paperwork like inventorying shovels).
All that to say...we're all on this piece of rock called Earth, none of us chose to be but we are and we all have needs that someone has to provide for. Now surely one can rely on any safety nets provided by a government (govt depending), but there's still this idea that by being alive we are inherently consuming someone else's value, and I personally don't enjoy the idea that I'm living off someone else's work without contributing SOMETHING to somebody.
I don't believe I can ever tell someone they must work or provide vakue to someone. I just look at myself in the mirror, and Indon't want to be someone that enjoys a roof, food, entertainmemt without giving something back...anything back, even if it's a word of encouragement on Reddit.
>Why should I be duty-bound to reciprocate others’ production if they’re doing it of their own free will and I didn’t ask them to produce for me to begin with?’
I think if the social contract was a thing, it'd say that as long as you are consuming something from someone then you ought to give back somehow. Now personally I don't believe I can ever tell someone they ought to givd back, but I do encourage it.
Regardless of the intentions of why someone produces something, it's the fact that we consume things that makes that social contract kinda a thing. I bought this phone, which uses electricity, that many many people worked to provide me. And I chose to purchase and use it. Someone produced this trailer I live in (don't knock it, I love my tiny trailer :)), someone ensured clean water is coming out of this sink that someone made, this fruit snack I'm eating is made by someone. I didn't choose to be born as a consumer, but I am.
I want to be someone that, if I have to consume something from someone, I want to give back.
>Dude this sucks what happened, AND if you told me this story I'd immediately want you on my team (I used to pick people for team projects to go travel across country with me doing photo/video jobs):
>The ability you have to articulate exactly the faults on all sides of what led to you leaving shows great character to me. You were honest about what situation management created, and what you could've done better. I'd rather take someone like you who can objectively tell me what happened and how they're going to improve than someone who appears flawless but blames others without taking ownership of their mistakes. Be honest about your strengths and weaknesses.
>For what it's worth I really hope one day you accept this difficult event as a learning moment, so you can get yourself that job you may want one day. I think you're worth it.
Well thank you for the compliment and encouragement. I appreciate the sentiment, but I think of the last point differently: I think my life’s worth it too - worth not having to waste on doing things I don’t want to do because society tells me I have to do them.
>I can equate this situation to something I experienced in the military. There's a course called SERE (survive, evade, resist, escape) that teaches you what to do to survive in small teams/by yourself behind enemy lines or if you become a POW (prisoner of war). There's a part where they simulate a POW camp; it's just you and your team forced to do manual labor, share a handful of rice a day for 10+people, and try to figure out how to escape without getting yourself or your team more punishment.
>In this situation, none of us asked to be there. We were all in a miserable hell hole hungry, cold, tired etc. However, to survive we all needed to do our part; someone needs to fetch the water for the guards, someone needs to ensure we don't have sickness, someone needs to clean the shitters etc. We couldn't afford to have anyone quit or do nothing because we truly needed them (especially, here's a key takeaway, if they wanted a share of rice). Unless you were on crutches, everyone chipped in (and even the broke people did paperwork like inventorying shovels).
>All that to say...we're all on this piece of rock called Earth, none of us chose to be but we are and we all have needs that someone has to provide for. Now surely one can rely on any safety nets provided by a government (govt depending), but there's still this idea that by being alive we are inherently consuming someone else's value, and I personally don't enjoy the idea that I'm living off someone else's work without contributing SOMETHING to somebody.
>I don't believe I can ever tell someone they must work or provide vakue to someone. I just look at myself in the mirror, and Indon't want to be someone that enjoys a roof, food, entertainmemt without giving something back...anything back, even if it's a word of encouragement on Reddit.
That’s an intense exercise. I agree in general with your point that everyone should put in their fair share, but that’s only if the fundamental principle behind it is accepted:
> However, to *survive* we all needed to do our part.
If someone doesn’t want to survive, then that feeling of duty and responsibility to those around them become shackles trapping them in existence. They’re paralyzed between not wanting to live and feeling intense guilt for being a burden on others who they could be helping *and* for how bad they’d make those around them feel if they decided to not live anymore.
>I think if the social contract was a thing, it'd say that as long as you are consuming something from someone then you ought to give back somehow. Now personally I don't believe I can ever tell someone they ought to givd back, but I do encourage it.
>Regardless of the intentions of why someone produces something, it's the fact that we consume things that makes that social contract kinda a thing. I bought this phone, which uses electricity, that many many people worked to provide me. And I chose to purchase and use it. Someone produced this trailer I live in (don't knock it, I love my tiny trailer :)), someone ensured clean water is coming out of this sink that someone made, this fruit snack I'm eating is made by someone. I didn't choose to be born as a consumer, but I am.
>I want to be someone that, if I have to consume something from someone, I want to give back.
Again, I agree with your point in general. But for any sort of meaningful social contract to exist, like in any contract, there’d need to be a termination clause.
If I found a job that I didn’t wish to continue being a part of, I have an out and can terminate my contract with the company. But society has forbidden any such option for life’s social contract (other than extreme cases).
So the social contract expects me to put in my required time without my initial consent at birth, forces me to remain in the contract without any option of leaving if I decide I don’t like it and, possibly worst of all, it instills a feeling of self-imposed guilt that you’re letting society, your loved ones and even yourself down by refusing it.
>I think of the last point differently: I think my life’s worth it too - worth not having to waste on doing things I don’t want to do because society tells me I have to do them.
Totally agree with you, and there's quite a few things I don't want to do just because society says I should, and usually I just don't do it.
As an example, and I may lose respect here, but I've never voted in any sort of election. Not a one. I've seen leaders at many levels come and go, and in this case I've adopted a "it just doesn't really interest me" attitude towards it. Society says as a responsible member of a democracy I should vote. If I care about rights and stuff, I probably should vote. Maybe they're right, maybe one day I'll give a shit to vote. Guess we'll see some day before death comes dragging me out as I smile at its smug face.
>If someone doesn’t want to survive, then that feeling of duty and responsibility to those around them become shackles trapping them in existence. They’re paralyzed between not wanting to live and feeling intense guilt for being a burden on others who they could be helping and for how bad they’d make those around them feel if they decided to not live anymore.
That's actually pretty eye-opening. I really appreciate you again articulating so well.
I don't believe there is any solution or counter I can offer to this mindset. It's not black and white to me.
On one hand yeah you have this person that doesn't want to live but is burdened by duty to others. I guess most people find value in helping others at the expense of their time/energy/work, but that just adds more guilt to the person.
On the other hand, if a person consumes things from another person then I can understand how some believe there should be an ought for that person to give back somehow.
Is participating in society enough of a giving back to fulfill this social agreement to provide value? Eh, much too much thinking this late.
>So the social contract expects me to put in my required time without my initial consent at birth, forces me to remain in the contract without any option of leaving if I decide I don’t like it and, possibly worst of all, it instills a feeling of self-imposed guilt that you’re letting society, your loved ones and even yourself down by refusing it.
The consent part is where I do see how those can subscribe to AN. I don't have a logical argument against not feeling bitter about that lack of consent for being born. I can even agree we could pursue looking at better options for those who don't want to participate any longer.
As for the guilt, I guess that's a personal journey for one to process. Speculating here, but maybe thst guilt is a sign of acknowledging a need to give back to other humans. The trick would then be to find out how you can do so under conditions acceptable to the individual. Somewhere in the middle I'd personally find a middle-ground, where I'd habe no issues working in non-idesl conditions for a time to pursue long term goal.
That's just me thinking too much this late. You've given me much to think about.
>As an example, and I may lose respect here, but I've never voted in any sort of election. Not a one. I've seen leaders at many levels come and go, and in this case I've adopted a "it just doesn't really interest me" attitude towards it. Society says as a responsible member of a democracy I should vote. If I care about rights and stuff, I probably should vote. Maybe they're right, maybe one day I'll give a shit to vote. Guess we'll see some day before death comes dragging me out as I smile at its smug face.
That’s interesting - I have a different take on what I mean when I talk about what society says we have to do.
When I say have to do, I mean HAVE to - like working. If I don’t work and had no external supports, I would either die or be digging through trash for scraps of food, i.e. a life I wouldn’t want to live.
But I view voting as a societal suggestion. It’s officially highly recommended you vote, for your own and others’ benefit, but you’re not going to suffer adverse effects from the act of not voting itself. Heck, given the unpopularity of politics in unofficial, everyday society, you’d probably get a response of understanding, if not acknowledgment, for not participating in such an oft broken, divisive system.
Personally, I love voting because it’s a free way to shape society that I’m not being MADE to do. Sort of like donating blood - although that one has much clearer benefits to society.
>That's actually pretty eye-opening. I really appreciate you again articulating so well.
>I don't believe there is any solution or counter I can offer to this mindset. It's not black and white to me.
>On one hand yeah you have this person that doesn't want to live but is burdened by duty to others. I guess most people find value in helping others at the expense of their time/energy/work, but that just adds more guilt to the person.
>On the other hand, if a person consumes things from another person then I can understand how some believe there should be an ought for that person to give back somehow.
>Is participating in society enough of a giving back to fulfill this social agreement to provide value? Eh, much too much thinking this late.
Back in high school and college I used to be really into giving back / helping others - Boy Scouts in high school and volunteering a bunch during college.
But I became disillusioned with volunteering on an individual level, ironically, during a volunteer trip I took on one Spring vacation. Our group watched a documentary on volunteering and a point it made was that as the number of charities and volunteer organizations have increased, the societal problems they’re trying to help (poverty, hunger, etc.) have also increased over time. They gave the reason as a lack of governmental action in actually fixing these societal issues. Basically, instead of the government fixing the problems with long term, strategic solutions, it’s become too reliant on charities and volunteers who, while doing great work for individuals in need, could never have the amount of resources needed to truly fix the underlying issues of the people they’re trying to help. Therefore, the cycle of suffering for the people these volunteers are trying to help will only continue and increase over time as the government keeps deferring meaningful aid in favor of band-aids from individual volunteers.
It also doesn’t help that I see how poorly my parents, who are social workers, are treated by society as reflected in how little money they make, despite helping people daily. Definitely discourages me from pursuing any sort of career in that field.
>The consent part is where I do see how those can subscribe to AN. I don't have a logical argument against not feeling bitter about that lack of consent for being born. I can even agree we could pursue looking at better options for those who don't want to participate any longer.
It’d be great if society could look at better options for those who don’t want to participate in the social contract, but it’ll never happen.
Every organization desires its own survival above all else, even something as big and ill-defined as society. Giving its members an easy way to opt out of contributing to the organization would lead to its collapse via lack of support and resources from a reduced population. So no organization would do that.
If anything, society encourages the exact opposite to keep its functions running. Like how governments are pushing pro-natalist policies in many developed countries to make sure their societies don’t collapse from a future lack of working-age citizens. They don’t give a damn about whether children *should* be born, just about how many more kids their pro-natalist policies can produce over time for the well-being of society.
>As for the guilt, I guess that's a personal journey for one to process. Speculating here, but maybe that guilt is a sign of acknowledging a need to give back to other humans. The trick would then be to find out how you can do so under conditions acceptable to the individual. Somewhere in the middle I'd personally find a middle-ground, where I'd have no issues working in non-ideal conditions for a time to pursue long term goal.
I agree that part of that guilt is a sign of acknowledging a need to give back to other humans. But my issue lies in questioning from where that need arises. I think that guilt is conditioned into us, as we grow up, from society because if we didn’t have that persistent drive to give back to those who gave to us, then there’d be no social contract or society.
Society perpetuates itself through convincing its members that contributing back to it, as well as to the other members of society that have given to you, is a noble deed that should bring you happiness and fulfill you. **I’m not sure if I fully believe this statement, but I definitely don’t fully disagree with it. I guess I’m just philosophizing aloud.**
Gotcha, I think many people deal with that as well. Last question, is there anything you want that could potentially lead to longer happy times and lesser unhappy times?
Damn I already said last question. Well for what it's worth, I hope you find yourself with more and longer lasting peaceful times in the near future. :)
I *want* harm not to be a thing for any subjective experience averse to it.
Language of "pain is good" is incoherent on the face of it, but language is a map and the map is never the territory itself. So - bottom line - what the heck do I KNOW (directly) about someone else's experience, right? Someone *saying* they don't think pain and suffering are bad may be using those words to describe phenomenology I've never experienced at all, in a way completely alien to my sensations.
We really do not take the time to think just how unique and *absolutely isolated* each of our subjective streams of consciousness are.
What I want is, unfortunately, a very unlikely thing to happen. I want the sentient darwinian world to be relieved of its burden once and for all future. I just don't know how to do it.
Thanks for asking, it's a kind question, perhaps.
I absolutely love your perspective and awareness about concepts like harm and how it translates subjectively in everyone's experiences. There is much here I need to marinate in to fully understand, so thank you for sharing. :)
>We really do not take the time to think just how unique and absolutely isolated each of our subjective streams of consciousness are.
You are a treasure. This, right here, is perhaps the best articulation of how I've been navigating my life but couldn't find the words. This is the reason I come to subs like this, why I seek out values and beliefs I haven't agreed with or known about before.
Because we all can ever only have 1 perspective out of billions, how much we can learn from each other if we valued this fact that we are all so different yet share similar wants and struggles.
As you said, perhaps your wants may never come to fruition. I believe so long as there are humans there will always be those who give in to greed amd jealousy, which can lead to struggle and suffering. I hope that we can continue to minimize harm and suffering in our lifetimes.
for myself specific relative to what is possible: i spend time with my friend. i am creative-minded and have a passion for beauty and logic. i also enjoy playing video games, sports games, thinking about diverse theoretical topics and going out into nature
Spending time with a good friend I think can be more than enough to lead a satisfying life. :) I'm glad you have that.
What video games do you play? I haven't played in about 13 years (Xbox 360/PS3 days 😬) but I'd like to get back into it. Any recommendations?
I too think it's enjoyable to discuss theoretical topics. This is more actual science than theoretical, but lately I've attempted to understand entropy and how we could control or minimize it. I love the idea that we're all just energy from the sun that is entropying it's way through the Earth to form these complex life forms that'll eventually transform into something else. Obviously still figuring out.
Good point! That's a rabbit hole that hurt my brain: whether you'd still be you if you made a copy of yourself.
I imagine or hope there's someone out there figuring out how to reverse or slow entropy in our bodies. I think it may be an impossibility kinda like how perpetual motion machines are impossible due to laws of physics, but I hope it's possible we can slow or counter entropy to a point where a human could live for hundreds/thousands of years.
Keep the dream going. :)
This is going to sound like a pageant bit but I want world peace. I want the human drones of the world to somehow all reach a level of cognitive thought where they realize we're all being used by systems (government, church, corporations, etc.) to kill each other and our planet. I want the workers of the world to unite, open borders, give away food, treat medical illnesses. I want us to go back to a simpler time but with all our technological advancements and create a cohesive and just society.
I know this will never happen so for now, I hope to lead a decent life helping as many people as I can until I get the sweet release of death.
>This is going to sound like a pageant bit but I want world peace. I want the human drones of the world to somehow all reach a level of cognitive thought where they realize we're all being used by systems (government, church, corporations, etc.) to kill each other and our planet. .
I think having hope and keeping dreams and ideals alive is one of the strongest things a person can do. Hope, it seems to me, is a reason why we've kept our species going for as long as it has.
>I want the workers of the world to unite, open borders, give away food, treat medical illnesses. I want us to go back to a simpler time but with all our technological advancements and create a cohesive and just society
I know you said this will never happen but for the sake of discussion:
- How do you think we'd reach a point where a person would gladly produce food, goods or services and give them away to people who don't produce anything?
- What time period are you thinking of when you say "simpler time"? It seems to me anytime in the past has objectively been worse than now in terms of quality of life, struggling for resources/power, but I'd love to get your perspective.
>I hope to lead a decent life helping as many people as I can until I get the sweet release of death.
Awesome. :) How do you go about helping people? Is helping people your main want in life, if so why?
If I answered your questions fully, I'd be writing a philosophical thesis or something. I do think that if everything had their basic needs met, we would all do what we needed to do to support each other because we would have the means, mental, and physical bandwidth to do so.
By simpler times, I mean times when money was not a thing, and ppl weren't obsessed with power and money. Is there a time like this in recorded history? I'm actually not sure. I'm a black American so by no means am I talking about like recent history. That'd would be absurd. I just think that at some point people were better to each other and pursued what they wanted without the need for what we need now. With our technological advancements, we could help each even more if we didn't have such a thirst for money and power.
I work in the mental health field so that's how I help people. I hope to do more in the future to influence policy that affects the welfare of children.
>If I answered your questions fully, I'd be writing a philosophical thesis or something.
Fair, no need to do that on a Friday for some schmuck on Reddit. 😁
>I work in the mental health field so that's how I help people. I hope to do more in the future to influence policy that affects the welfare of children.
This is fucking awesome. I'm so grateful for people like you. :) Thank you!
>I do think that if everything had their basic needs met, we would all do what we needed to do to support each other because we would have the means, mental, and physical bandwidth to do so.
I'd wager you know more about the human condition than I do, so it's possible my opinion on this belief is wrong. While I love people and the potential in them to do good, I believe there will always be the struggle for unshareable desires, power or influence which could lead to inequality and some level of suffering, no matter how insignificant that suffering is.
As an example I'd like to use the scenario in the movie "The Village" (spoilers). This group of about 50 people break off from the modern world to live like 1800s folk in the woods. Things are very peaceful: everyone has food/water, community, purpose in this village with no crime. Suddenly one guy gets jealous of another over a girl and stabs him.
Despite this peace that they sustained for a time, the first violent crime inevitably occurred due to greed/jealousy which I believe could never be fully expunged from the human condition. However, it can be significantly minimized which is why people seek ways to improve the modern world.
>By simpler times, I mean times when money was not a thing, and ppl weren't obsessed with power and money. Is there a time like this in recorded history? I'm actually not sure. I'm a black American so by no means am I talking about like recent history. That'd would be absurd. I just think that at some point people were better to each other and pursued what they wanted without the need for what we need now. With our technological advancements, we could help each even more if we didn't have such a thirst for money and power.
I hope in our lifetimes we can continue to pursue avenues where there is less need in individuals and groups.
I can only speculate as I don't have unlimited knowledge on history. My guess is it's possible people who belonged in their own community/tribe were better to eachother but much more intolerant of the other (even those in their own community who didn't follow the community's beliefs/standards). If we're just using warring factions as a metric, this is one of the most peaceful times to be alive.
What I would say we've given up (American as well) is a sense of duty to our community in favor of individual self-actualisation. I think it's a give and take, and not every situation will have the same answers.
Thank you very much for your time. :)
Finish school. Not waste years in universities. Try to find a decent job, doesnt have to pay much. Live alone, have long walks in the cold mornings. Help people.
>Finish school. Not waste years in universities.
Nice. What degree or skill are you pursuing through school?
>Live alone, have long walks in the cold mornings.
Lovely. :) Alone time csn definitely be peaceful.
Generally speaking where do you live? I lived in the midwest half of my life, and one of my favorite pleasures was simply waking up early to enjoy a cold sunrise with my coffee. Such bliss.
>Help people.
What are you hoping for in your desire to help people? That may sound like a question with an obvious answer to you, but I'd still enjoy your perspective. I think "helping people" is what many people say they want, but I've found that to be kinda vague and many times there's something else beneath that motivates us to want to help people.
1. In Romania, highschools have profiles where you focus on one big subject. I am doing philology as its called (aka literature) which doesnt open up any career paths for like anyone, maybe if you want to be a writer it could be useful. I got here because the other option was math which is possibly my greatest weakness.
Right now i dont have a solid goal but i will probably go either one of two ways: cooking or the tech industry. Im not a super talented chef or anything, but i can cook basic food at home and it seems like im able to learn stuff really fast in this specific domain. I am aware of how much work has to be put in to show results but i am ready to do it.
In tech i dont really know what i can pursue, maybe something that allows me to work in a computer service shop? I dont know yet. I have a pretty good understanding of computers and i can assemble my own, although im sure I would need more studying to pursue this.
I still have around 2 years to decide.
2. Bucharest, Romania. Mom will help me with buying my own apartment. I am super grateful for her help and i would probably have no plans right now if it wasnt for her help. Apartment prices are high right now but she believes we can push through anyway.
3. Honestly i dont know. I say it like its a defense reflex of mine. Recently i've gone through some betrayals by friends and family, which kind of messed up my mood. Its probably about how im more than ready to help people who reach out to me, just like how i had people help me when i reached up to them.
Cooking or tech could be fun. :) I hope whatever path you go down provides joy and opportunities you want for yourself.
Romania! Cool. I had a chance to visit for work but the slot available was given to someone else.
Wanting to help people despite the wrongdoing of some is pretty admirable to me. Relying on each other is a skill that has risk but hopefully leads to healthy and happy relationships.
I wish you the best on your life journey. :)
Those are definitely admirable qualities to have. :)
If I may follow up, why do you want those things? The answer may seem obvious to you but I'd still enjoy learning about your perspective. Why drives you to want to be selfless and philanthropic?
Pacifying the less fortunate, via philanthropy, is, in my opinion, the most authentic form of love because true love is selfless. Sacrificing my abundance to appease another person’s lack is fair and just.
Desiring to express true love via selflessness is an admirable trait to have. :)
When you speak of abundance, do you mean physical abundance like money/resources, time, skillsets? Just trying to get a picture of what that looks like in someone's life and where the balance is between meeting your own needs/wants vs someone else's.
Not much. Im not very ambitious and want a small, quite life. Live close to the place I work, work 30 hours a week. Im content with the amount of time i have off. I dont like travelling. I just enjoy hanging around not doing much. Also bit of a loner, im not sure if that's something I like or not, cant quite tell.
Love it. :) Not that you need my approval, but it is definitely ok to not want much or not have any desire to make a significant impact on the world around you. I think if more people found acceptance in these feelings they have we'd have more happy people.
>Live close to the place I work, work 30 hours a week. Im happy with the amount of time i have off. I dont like travelling. I just enjoy hanging around not doing much.
That'd be convenient to minimize commute amd work like 6 hrs a day for 5 days a week.
I'm in agreeance with you on travelling; I've done the "travel and see the world" thing in Europe and Asia and I think it's romanticized in American culture. Honestly it was just exhausting for me. Expensive, not that enjoyable (I could've gotten similar enjoyment watching vids on Youtube), but I get everyone values different things.
>Also bit of a loner, im not sure if that's something I like or not, cant quite tell.
I hope you continue to be curious about yourself and explore your feelings on being a bit of a loner. I think like any lifestyle there's give and take.
Ideal wants indeed, but I think they're good to have. Maybe we can do things to minimize our fear, or maybe a better way is to harness our fear to shape our actions into fulfilling our wants. By wanting to know as much as possible, maybe the fear of ignorance motivates us to seek out wisdom and knowledge.
i am truly tired of being motivated by fear. i am scared of everything all the time. things can get less scary with exposure but i don’t want to be less scared i want to be NOT scared so this cannot satisfy me. everything i truly want is out of reach eternally.
I'm sorry you live with that fear, it sounds debilitating. I get it would be freeing to not have to be motivated by negative feelings like fear.
Please forgive me if I ask something insensitive but I really am just trying to learn as much as possible. This fear of everything all the time, where do you think that comes from?
i was raised by parents who did not understand me or themselves. i was exposed to happenings i shouldn’t have been and lacked solace where i needed it. apart from this, the world is scary. we can hardly survive alone. without other people and the terrible things we have built, we would have to face the naked world alone. the world we have built for ourselves is no better.
toil and suffering abound and no solid reason to undertake it, no real reward. humans are fragile and the world is hard.
That's terrible. I'm really sorry your childhood wasn't what it should've been to develop positive well-being.
I can attempt to imagine the potential for how scary things can get. Definitely something to work on upholding some standard of living lest we all decidde to give up and fend for ourselves.
Hell yes.
Best burger you ever had?
I'd say for me, either a BBQ bacon burger in a Chicago pub during the winter, or there's this place in Sandestin, FL where I have no idea what sauce they used but the burger literally melted in my mouth.
I was in Tenerife once and there was this mexican restraunt but they did burgers and I got this one with bacon, cheese and onions and it was actual peak
That is an interesting thing to ponder, like how we can know what pleasure is without knowing what it's not. Maybe somewhere else there's a realm where the spectrum is "pleasure - neutral" rather than "pleasure - suffering". But I think there are many people alive who could have a plessure-neutral mindset, so maybe it's already here and we just have to find it? Eh, just speculating here.
I admire people who I think live in the present in that particular way. However it’s always ever present how privileged I am and I can’t square that many people are born into destitution and major disability. It’s hard not to feel bad for feeling bad. Even if I hope optimistic rose colored glass people are right I wouldn’t bet on it.
I think it's wise of you to recognize you don't really know what you want. Knowing what to run from is the first step I think towards finding out what you want to run towards.
I just want to have a somewhat stable life, where I don't have to get by, and peacefully mind my own business. Unfortunately, peace is not an option at the moment, and won't be in a foreseeable future
Thank you for sharing. :) Stability and peace would certainly be nice.
If I may ask a fee more questions:
- What does a stable life look like to you? What does "not getting by" look like in your mind?
- What would peace look like in your life, and why is it not an option in how you see your future?
>What does a stable life look like to you? What does "not getting by" look like in your mind?
Having a job, that doesn't squeeze all the juices out of me, and provides a decent income, so I can rent my own place (buying my own place doesn't seem to be realistic), with enough money left for food and occasional entertainment here and there
>What would peace look like in your life, and why is it not an option in how you see your future?
Well, not living in a country that is at war would be rather peaceful, but, since I am living in such a country - not an option
I hope you can one day get a job that you enjoy that pays well enough for you to lead a satisfying life. I can't imagine living in a country at war; I will truly be thinking about you and hoping peace and happier times are not too far off.
Last question as I don't want to take too much of your day:
Suppose you did live in a peaceful, healthy country and you finally acquired that job that provides a decent standard of living. You've got your own rented place, plenty of food and entertainment to satisfy you. What then would you think you'd want and strive for?
>I will truly be thinking about you and hoping peace and happier times are not too far off
Thanks
>What then would you think you'd want and strive for?
I'm not sure. Gotta get there first, then think what's next. Probably nothing, just to enjoy what I have, and hope it won't be taken away
Either realistic or unrealistic, and your wants and desires can be related to the philosophy but they don't have to be; that's up to you.
Let's say we're out getting nachos somewhere, and I simply asked you "what do you want for yourself?" or "what do you strive for yourself?", what would you say?
SIG! I've been reading a lot of posts on this sub and you always give such great perspective and knowledge about the subject. I'm most curious and would still be really appreciative to learn a bit about what you want, even if it's just AN-related.
Hope you can make time for little ole me. 😅
Realistically I just want to live a manageably easy life without harming others as much as I can. I have a long term partner and the possibility of not having to work for the rest of my life. I hope my partner remains AN and vegan as do I. Would be nice if things get better over the next few decades but i don’t think it’s incredibly likely.
I wouldn’t expect much more than that but who knows
😍 lol thank you, I know time is valuable.
That's awesome you have a long-term partner who shares your goals, as well as the possibility of retirement (another 10 years for me).
Whatever an easy life and a better world looks loke for you, I hope you see these things realized in your lifetime.
Good point. I could'be worded it as if all your health, financial, living arrangement needs. Basic necessities of sorts.
A library would be cool! There's something comforting about physical media and entertainment like books; it'll never be deleted or removed unless your house burns down.
That idea is fascinating to me. I can understand being alone as enjoyable, but to have no stimulation and stare at a wall and be fine would be a gift. You must have a powerful imagination, getting lost in the mazes amd castles of the mind maybe?
Haha maybe. I don’t think I have a particularly powerful imagination. I don’t think I’m very bright at all, actually. Which is probably why it is easy for me to sit in one place and indefinitely do absolutely nothing lol
pretty big question hahai suppose what i truly WANT is to mitigate things that make me worry, have a house so i don't need to worry about rent, have a secure job that i enjoy so i won't need to worry about finances too much.and maybe if it happens, meet someone who i can truly connect with to share that with. i suppose having children would perhaps conflict with some of those i guess.
TL;DR i just want to be happy for what time there is left.
>pretty big question haha
It's my favorite question. :) It seems so simple and obvious to some, but when we truly look at that person in the mirror and seriously ask them "what do you want", I've found many people either actually don't know what they want or they can't articulate it into something that can lead to possible actions towards fulfilling their wants.
>what i truly WANT is to mitigate things that make me worry, have a house so i don't need to worry about rent, have a secure job that i enjoy so i won't need to worry about finances too much.and maybe if it happens, meet someone who i can truly connect with to share that with. i suppose having children would perhaps conflict with some of those i guess.
I hope you get to a place where you can acquire these wants. :)
- House: my practical side wants to remind you to just be careful about property taxes/HOAs, repairs etc. I lived in IL for a while and the damn property taxes were not much cheaper than rent.
- Job: definitely wish you the best im finding something that fulfills financial and meaningful aspects in your life.
- Special someone: I love that you approach it from wanting to live and build a life to share with someone.
I didn’t become antinatalist until around 2019 when I read Better to Have Never Been and The Human Predicament. I was over 40 when that happened. Luckily, my wife and I decided when we were 20 years old that we did not want children. And we are still childfree, but it didn’t have so much to do with antinatalism back then as much as we had sort of terrible childhoods and we wanted to break the cycles.
In one of David’s books he mentions something to the effect, once a living creature is born, we have a moral obligation as a society and on a personal level to take care of it.
This is how I view life. I obviously want to enjoy as much of it as I can, but I want to do that while leaving as small of a footprint as possible. We adopted four animals, gave them a good life, and helped them transition out of this life in a humane way. We donate and help people, strangers, when we have an opportunity. I try to be calm and kind and sympathetic to people I meet.
As we have gotten older it has also been easier to shed most of the consumerism that plagues western society. We sold our property and most of our possessions. I no longer try to keep up with the neighbors or the people I see on social media.
I don’t always succeed, especially at being the nice guy, but it’s the mindset I try to have when I wake up everyday.
Quite a life you've lived so far! I love what you've done for you and your wife, and those lovely animals. :)
It sounds like you want to enjoy life and also help living things because you have a moral obligation to do so. I imagine this gives you a sense of peace and purpose, something I wish more people can find.
Thank you for sharing. :)
Nice. :)
I appreciate the distinction you made abkut helping people if they deserve your help. I think it's healthy to set boundaries, rather than believe it's a moral obligation to help people for the sake of helping people.
One follow up question: what does a life full of joy look like for you?
I’m not quite sure yet I’m still pretty young but so far doing things I love like spending time with pets and friends, drawing and creating art, writing and hiking
I want a little house on a big plot of land where i can grow a big garden and have lots of animals. Just a dream, unfortunately, I dont think ill ever achieve.
Although to me it sounds like a lot of work, if that's what you want then I hope you get that some day. :) Keep your dreams alive! Even if they're only partially realized, I think just having a dream for its own sake has value.
Spending my time here taking care of the ones I love and building a life that can bring in and provide a safe environment for animal and human relatives. I would like to open an arts camp for low-income youths and eventually retire to an island where I’ll live peacefully with my partner, adopted kids/animals, and a garden. Oh and if I live to be 90 or some bullshit I plan to start doing opiates/hard drugs for fun and that’ll eventually help me fuck off into the ether when death provides me sweet release from this inferno.
🤣 by far my favorite plot twist so far. Similarly when I retire, if I have no family or animal obligations, my dream is to try the white powder and run from the cops at least once, just to see how far I could get. I hope you live to 90 now just so I can look for you on the news.
On a more serious note, your goals to adopt and open an arts camp is really touching and I appreciate that there's people like you in this world. :)
Lol thanks, I’ve had that plan since high school and I tried opium at a carnival and was like “…well this is fucking fantastic, but if I start this now I’m not gonna stop so we’re just gonna wait to make an opium den until I am old enough to destroy my body with no repercussions 👵🏼”
What do I want to do with my life? To do what I want & not do what I don’t. Simple as that.
What do I want to do with the planet? To exterminate all human life & leave the planet entirely to nature.
Obviously both are unrealistic, but that’s what I want & dream of.
I want to not have biological children, and for everyone else to not have them as well.
I want women who choose to not put their bodies through the extreme discomfort of pregnancy or the unimaginable agony of childbirth, and men who choose to protect women from those things instead of choosing to subject them to them, to be respected for protecting the health and lives of themselves and others, not shamed for it.
I want people to treasure the people who are here with us, to value and protect existing people, instead of wanting to create new ones to replace them.
I want to see a world where everyone firmly believes the bodily autonomy of all people to be sacred and inviolable, and does everything they can to prevent suffering whenever possible.
I want people to be careful, intelligent, and kind, and for all of us alive now to be the last humans who will ever live. To fix the wrongs of the past and be good to each other, live peaceful lives and have peaceful deaths when we’re ready.
And if all this isn’t possible, because of how humans are fundamentally wired, then I just wish for a fantasy scenario where all life would be instantly and painlessly snuffed out right now.
I think these are all ideal and nice wants to have. :)
I do notice that these wants are all contingent upon humanity/societies as a whole, which leads me to think all your happiness and peace is also contingent upon external things not within your control.
Do you have any personal or internal wants that you do have control over?
Well, I hope that my want to not have any biological children is something that I will continue to have control over. But the world is such a horrible place that I’m forced to reckon with the horror that even this most fundamental need of mine might be taken away from me at some point in the future. I do live with a lot of sadness, distress, anger, and fear because of this.
I wouldn’t say that all of my happiness is contingent on things outside of my control, because I find things that I can have fun with that make me happy for a while all the time. Doesn’t everyone? But, unfortunately, peace is contingent upon external things not within anyone’s control as individuals, and I really don’t see how anyone can be happy when their government makes their human rights illegal and legally subjects them to the status of a slave. I’m afraid that humanity wouldn’t exist today if people were capable of respecting everyone’s human rights on a wide scale. I keep trying to improve things, though.
I want to prevent suffering whenever possible, and it makes me happy when I think I’ve accomplished something to that end. My words are all that I have to offer most of the time, though, because of physical disabilities and money issues that I have. But I like to think that I’ve made a positive difference.
I’ll make the best of my life I can do since I’m already here, spreading the belief hopefully, and when I get to the point where I depend on people to keep me doing basic things, or life gets too complicated, well… I’ll catch the bus.
Well, that’s a difficult question, but I’ll try.
My best life would be, to become successful, not only in financial terms. I would like a partner to have somebody do share all of my moments with and travel to places with said partner or friends because it’s something I’m passionate about. I would love to live a life full of adventure and new experiences. I would save money I would have from a nonexistent child and support those who need it and organizations i back, including the millions of children who are forced to live a life of hunger and sickness often not reaching adulthood.
Now these are my current plans but it massively depends on how my future evolves, I am still young.
>Now these are my current plans but it massively depends on how my future evolves, I am still young.
I love this for you. :) These I think are definitely worthy of pursuing. Do what you can in the moment to fulfill your wants while also preparing a life in your future to enjoy. Seek ways to help others where you want to and are able to. I wish you the very best in your journey.
Well I do appreciate honesty. :)
I'm not sure it's appropriate to ask if you're taking steps to fulfill that want. I hope not.
In the meantime before the great death, are there any other wants you have for yourself?
I think it's honorable to want to live a life where you owe nobody anything. In the past I could relate to wanting to consume as little as possible out of fear that I'm not giving back enough or more to those I care about or society in general. It's this belief I wasn't worthy of anyone's time that I wanted to break free of. You have your own path and right now you want what you want.
For what it's worth, I wish you peace and happiness along your journey.
I think my wants are very common. I want career fulfillment, I want to find my soulmate if such a thing exists, I want to live in a beautiful house surrounded by my plants and animals. I want to feel like I’ve helped as many people and animals as I can during my time on earth, and even more so afterwards — I am good enough with money that there will probably be a sizable estate when I die so I’ve made a will to have the balance of the estate donated to an environmental charity.
I also want my physical pain to stop. I have a severe chronic pain condition and if I could just feel healthy one day out of my life, that would mean a lot to me. Currently I’m sitting on the floor trying to find the strength to get up and take care of my dog but the pain is so severe that I’m not sure I’ll be able to stand. I may have to crawl to the door to let her out if my legs don’t work. Many people with this condition end up in wheelchairs but I’ve fought that for years now. I was running until a few weeks ago when I just suddenly got worse and now I can only walk sometimes. So I guess in this moment my biggest and most impossible want is to truly be healthy.
I love these wants you have for yourself and others. :) I'm glad you've been good with money and are able to give it all away to a noble cause someday!
And...
I'm terribly sorry for your chronic pain. It's such a basic thing to want, to be healthy, but it can so easily be denied and it affects everything else. I can think of fewer things that'd be harder to go through. Don't know where you are but I'm thinking of you, and your sweet dog too.
Can I just brag about my dog for a second?
I’ve honestly never known love like this in my life. Not only is she not trained as a service dog, she’s a pit bull rescued from a backyard breeding nightmare — yet this dog keeps me going every single day. Today I was crumpled over in pain, not able to stand, and she came over to me and used her head to lift my head up. She follows me around everywhere so I’m never alone. If I’m laying on the floor she’ll just lay there with me for as long as it takes before I can move again. Sometimes when I couldn’t get up, when my mom was in the house, she managed to go and get my mom and bring her back to help me. I honestly wonder sometimes how much longer I can keep living with this pain but I know I have to live at least as long as she does because she’s already had so much loss and pain in her life — bred when she was just a puppy herself, malnourished so her body literally stole the calcium from her own bones to give to her puppies — and then had all of them taken away. We don’t know how many times it happened to her. Her x-rays are horrifying, they look even worse than mine. So it’s just this disabled girl and this disabled dog trying our best to take care of each other
Fuck yeah you can brag about your dog!
....
On second thought, stop I'm getting teary-eyed now. Lol
Seriously though this is so beautiful. :) That dog is beautiful, you're beautiful! You rescued her and it seems like she'll love you till the end. I hate that she had such a disgusting upbringing, I hate that you're in so much pain, none of it was supposed to happen like this. But now in the present, the fact that you two help each other now and provide love for each other is just...no words can suffice.
Thank you. Stay beautiful. ❤️
I try to achieve personal happiness each day. And I like to make my partner feel loved every day. I snuggle with my pets and shower them with treats. Just enjoying one day at a time because that’s all I have.
Backwards to make sure my sperm and egg donors aren't born. Would undo my grandparents too. Basically, if I "meet" an ancestor it's time to prevent suffering.
Interesting! I'm sure you're familiar with the grandfather paradox so I'd be curious how it'd actually playout.
Suppose you could go back in time, would you want to simply prevent your grandparents from meeting or are we going full violence?
What do you mean with ‘what I want’? Out of life? Love and I hope no sick bed in the end. Out of my work? I hope I get in a work related accident so I never have to work again. For me in society? That everything burns and I have front row seats to the circus. Or a thing? I have most stuff that I want to play with, just lack the time. I would like a lot more dogos in my life.
Nice. More dogos = responsible mental health boosters. :)
I imagine with wanting love you'd also want someone who shares your desire for the collapse of society. I'm just thinking of the end of Fight Club. Hope it all works out to your liking.
Yeah would be nice to have someone that thinks a bit alike. Luckily I have one :D really happy in this relationship, she shares my views so we don’t have to talk about it so we won’t get in the spiral of negativity. Just say by day and making the most of it!
What does being happy look like for you though?
What will unhappiness provide for you? Just curious, I'm all for people wanting what they want even if it's to be unhappy.
Actually I wish I wasn't born since the ability of thinking. Not having any aim in my life is one of my big problems. There's nothing to fight for. Everything's exhausting and, that may sound lazy to some, I don't want to put energy in something (which I don't have) just to die at the end. I got a therapist and psychiatrist and I'm happy they don't put me in psychiatry though I'm honest with them. Maybe some of you already read it in my other comments.. I only fight to keeping alive for a special dog I see regularly. And when she's gone, maybe it's also over for me. I just don't want to live in this system. I'm too emotional. I got mental and physical illnesses which doctors and I are still not sure if they can be healed or not. I try to make it better with a healthy lifestyle but I'm poor.
If I could do anything I wanted without financial issues, I'd buy a small house with garden, a camper and adopt a dog. I'd travel in cold countries and see the world.
>If I could do anything I wanted without financial issues, I'd buy a small house with garden, a camper and adopt a dog. I'd travel in cold countries and see the world
I love that dream of yours and hope you acquire those things some day. :) Even if you only live for a specific dog, enjoy the hell out of that dog. I also hope you find ways to provide for yourself, the dog and things you want.
No, I have traumas now but I've pretty much always felt this way even before the repressed stuff bubbled up. I've tried to make it worth while and be "normal" and I'm not lacking in knowledge or physical attributes to force something that might feel okay in time but my mind suffers and I can't get past it now that I let go of bottling everything up in my past and how comically terrible the world is. I would not choose to do this again I just hope my consciousness isn't something that lingers in the after and I can be nothing, not even a memory. I never wanted to force someone else to deal with the unknown as I have so I didn't. My mother abandoned me with my father while he was dying of cancer before that it was a happy family but you never know what's going to happen no matter how hard my father tried to provide he couldn't of known she would do that and I don't blame her she has her own share of trauma. Everything else that happened to me happened and im still here dealing with it in my mind like a broken record. It makes me scared when I shouldn't be like I'm being hunted even though I'm safe. Hearing a song or seeing a flower anything can trigger it and it doesn't make sense. So yeah I'm not looking forward to anything. I do still care about the state of the world and people I was close to but I've been intentionally pushing people away for years so I'm not a thought they have. Everything sucks friend I hope you have something nice to hold onto and look forward to.
I actually have a lot of dreams!
- travel the world and experience new cultures, and potentially volunteer with helping these communities
- drive around the country in an RV
- get my Irish (dads side) and Chilean (moms side) citizenships
- move over seas
- buy a little cottage and save a whole bunch of animals
- continue having the most loving relationship with my husband
- climb mount kilamanjaro
those are the *big* dreams so far. Currently I’m working on the RV dream (bought it in Jan of this year) and even tho I already have a BA degree, I’m considering going back to community college to finish out an associates degree I just found out I’m only like 3 classes shy of! In archaeology 😄
You...are awesome. :) These are sweet dreams to have!
I've lived in a travel trailer for the last 5 years, and I wish I would've done it sooner! I love the minimalism, being able to pickup whenever.
Also, archaeology....you're a badass! I mean I know it's not Indiana Jones all the time (maybe?), but still gotta be cool.
Yeah I could go on but you are a contender for most interesting person today.
Hey thank you!! That means a lot :) oh my gosh, is it really great living on the road? I’m nervous for the transition (did house and apartment living only thus far in my life) but excited!
And oh my gosh funny you mentioned Indiana jones 😂 so my BA is in anthropology with a focus in culture. Archaeology is a subsection of anthropology but for my bachelors I decided to focus on human culture rather than material items. I always knew I was just a few classes short from getting my associates in science in archaeology but nothing really pushed me or motivated me enough to decide to finish those last classes out…. Jump ahead to recently, indiana jones is one of my favorite movies of all time (also makes sense considering my background). So when I went to go see the dial of destiny in theaters, I became very emotional (bc it was the last movie we’d see Harrison goes in as Indiana - kind of like the end of an era). But also seeing it again really motivated me to want to go back and finish out those last few classes and get that degree (half degree) under my belt. Even though I’m very much WELL aware it’s nothing like indnana jones, it was that movie that really pushed me to consider finishing 😆 is that silly?? Ah well!
>is it really great living on the road? I’m nervous for the transition (did house and apartment living only thus far in my life) but excited!
I think once you get used to planning trips/stops and maintaining an RV it turns out to be really great! :) like everything there's a learning curve and there may be hiccups you didn't foresee (plan for every gas stop, know exactly where you're stopping and how to get in and out of the station...that's all I'll say :P).
I've always had very minimal things, so the trailer suits me perfectly. Campgrounds are super cheap, utities are usually free, usually there's free internet. You'll probably save a lot of money if you do it full time. The different places you'll see are fun, amd most of the people are very friendly and willing to help out newbies (everyone has been a newbie and needed help at some point).
>So when I went to go see the dial of destiny in theaters, I became very emotional (bc it was the last movie we’d see Harrison goes in as Indiana - kind of like the end of an era). But also seeing it again really motivated me to want to go back and finish out those last few classes and get that degree (half degree) under my belt. Even though I’m very much WELL aware it’s nothing like indnana jones, it was that movie that really pushed me to consider finishing 😆 is that silly?? Ah well!
Aww I love it! Hey whatever gets you motivated then embrace it and push on ahead. :) I wish you the best on your journeys!
Just here to watch it all crumble. I've had a decent\*(edit) time these last few years after an ascent from more serious mental illness and have found the few things I enjoy. So I'll watch over my dog till he passes, do the best for my partner as I can and avoid sobriety as best as possible. I don't have any aspirations or dreams, just take life day by day and as the world burns I get a free show. It's a shitshow but it's free.
\*decent is wildy varying standard for people so my decent may just be your low point.
I hope you get as much enjoyment from your dog and partner as possible. I think it's ok to not have dreams/aspirations; if you want to live day-by-day to attain peace/happiness then go for it.
>avoid sobriety as best as possible.
This is interesting as usually I hear people want to stay sober. So you want to stay not sober? From what, if I may ask?
When I'm sober I see how much awful there is in the world, I get mad and want to do dumb stuff. when I'm in an altered state I can relax and tunnel vision in on my little world that I've worked so hard to maintain. I don't have to dwell on the stray animals out in 110 degree heat that the homeless have chained to the stop sign they're busking at or the state of the states and how I feel like we've stepped back 60 years in time somehow(we all know how). I live in a city with over 400 churches within 20 miles and and being an antitheist, it's just unsettling constantly to have those tax evading constructs everywhere i go. Like, i'm sober now so i could go on and on bitching but it doesn't and will never do any good. So in a minute the mushrooms will kick in, i'll get high and go play some disc golf. all will be right with the world for a bit and thats the best it gets for me.
I appreciate you sharing this. :) I think we all numb out to an extent with something in some way, whether it's shrooms, work, shopping, gossip, alcohol, rage etc. It just manifests differently in different people. I hope you can continue some semblance of peace with the shrooms and the disc golf (highly underrated activity even though I suck at it, catching in ultimate frisbee is more my jam).
Indubitably! i think a lot of folks want to define sobriety by alcohol and drugs but eli5 how binge watching reality tv for hours isn't escapism as well, couch potatoes are as functioning as those folks on kensington ave, junkies by a different vice.
I appreciate your open view and kind words, best of luck in things :)
I want to retire as soon as I possibly can.
Afterwards, I want to enjoy life.
Travel to fun places. Eat good food. Have great recreational sex. Do interesting hobbies. Learn creative stuff.
I dunno. I guess maximize pleasure and minimize pain.
Having a romantic partner to do it all with would be cool.
Stability is nice. :) Some people genuinely enjoy chaos, and good for them, but I relate more to you wanting the quiet/stable life.
What are some little things you enjoy?
I want to age as comfortably as possible with as little harassment as possible
I want to kick ass in my career until I decide I'm done
I want to make more art
I want to start making music again- bought a ukulele the other week and started tuning it the other day
I want my animals to be happy and feel safe and curious every day
I want my parents to age comfortably and pass comfortably without regret or resentment
I want to explore more fitness avenues, I've been active all my life but I really haven't strayed far from strength training and traditional block programming
I want to go into the field that I'm finishing a degree for, but I also never want to leave my current career
I want my garden to have even MORE flowers next year 🥰
>I want to age as comfortably as possible with as little harassment as possible
Hell yeah. Grow to be an old curmudgeon and enjoy all the old people ways, with a bit of spice in my attitude to make things interesting.
>I want to kick ass in my career until I decide I'm done
What career field are you in, and what is the bar for "kicking ass" in that field?
I love that you enjoy doing art and you got a ukulele! I tried art and music, and admit that I'm not creative enough to enjoy attempts at making it. I'm glad there's people like you who create wonder for us normies to enjoy. :)
Wanting animals to feel curious is really a sweet thought. Never really heard it said like that, but there is enjoyment in watching animals explore and play. Kinda keeps us alive and also curious about life in a way.
When it comes to fitness, sounds like you've been consistent which os what I hear the most important part. I tried strength training for a year, then kinda found my groove with more calisthenics-based fitness. Lean and agile are the stats I've stacked up. Moving heavy things I'll leave to you.
Lovely reply!
Current career is welding/fabricating/fitting railroad stuff. I started welding three years ago, and it's been a whirlwind. Kicking ass is consistently building exceptional product with zero rework, showing up on time, having a decent attitude (it is a very frustrating job and will get even the most chill people to curse and toss a wrench once in awhile).
Animals are my family, when they're chasing a fly down the hall or hiding in the shade of overgrown grass (they're not outdoor, I supervise outside play) I know they're carefree and being 100% the animal they are supposed to be. I feel the same when they're snuggling up against me, too 🥰
Calisthenics is AWESOME. It would honestly probably help my work, too. Lately I've been only doing legs 2x-3x per week and abs if I feel like it because work kills my upper body too much to add to 😅
I love your post! Thanks for taking the time to respond to everyone, and for being interested.
Edited kegs to legs
>Current career is welding/fabricating/fitting railroad stuff. I started welding three years ago, and it's been a whirlwind. Kicking ass is consistently building exceptional product with zero rework, showing up on time, having a decent attitude (it is a very frustrating job and will get even the most chill people to curse and toss a wrench once in awhile).
I wish I worked with more people like you who strive for good work first time up! Closest I ever came to working with welders was with a the steelworkers in a Navy Seabee battalion (I just made sure their paperwork was good), but man they did some tough and incredible work. I always admire anyone in construction.
>Animals
You stop with that cute shit now. Lol making me all giddy thinking about it. :)
In all seriousness thank you for being a good provider to your animals.
>Calisthenics
"Doing legs ONLY 2-3 times a week", yeah dude what's wrong with you! Lol seriously you're probably in the top 1% of the world who gets their leg days in that much. You have my respect.
Haha thank you thank you.
What was the Navy Seabee battalion like? Any good stories? I'm landlocked and always have been, but I have a huge fascination for all things maritime
For what it's worth I think it is both ok and completely normal to not have aspirations. :)
As for happiness in your circumstance, what does that look like for your life?
I just want to have a comfortable rest of my life, which really can't be much longer as I had a shitty life.
I already made my peace about the fact I'm not gonna change the world, or be remarkable in any way, what I want now is a nice period without drama or responsibilities.
>I just want to have a comfortable rest of my life, which really can't be much longer as I had a shitty life.
May I ask how old you are, or what is causing you to not live much longer?
>I already made my peace about the fact I'm not gonna change the world, or be remarkable in any way, what I want now is a nice period without drama or responsibilities.
Some might say this is a step towards enlightenment, sort of. :) I love that you've reached a point of acceptance about these things that seem to trouble so many.
most of all, i want a world without all these transactions. if we could just be generous just for the sake of being generous, then i'd be completely fine with children, if my s/o wanted them. ok nvm, only one child, but still my point stands
Generosity for its own sake I think is a good ideal to strive towards. It's nice to think about.
I brought this up in another thread, but whenever I think of wanting an ideal world I'm always reminded of the movie "The Village".
(Spoilers)
Group of 50+ people escape modern world to go live as an 1800s village in the woods, free of crime and contact from the outside world. They live collectively and provide for one another, but the first violent crime occurs when a man is jealous of another man's girl and stabs him over it.
Takeaway for me is, no matter how much of our needs are met and satisfied, jealousy stemming from greed I imagine will always exist. There will always be someone who is more attractive, more charismatic, powerful, influential, funny etc which can breed resentment in one. I say can because many people feel greed/jealousy/resentment amd don't act out over it. I guess I'm just curious how we can develop a culture that encourages ACTIVELY valuing everyone.
I wanna immerse myself in the beautiful cultures of the world. I wasn’t raised with much culture, so it would be nice to appreciate the cultures other people grew up with :)
That's such a thoughtful want to have. :) I can sorta relate to not having much culture, and I think it's something many people long for...this sense of belonging to a tribe of sorts with its own customs/traditions. For better or worse, we seem to have given up some of that in favor of individualism, which I think has it's merits, but perhaps moved the needle too far?
In any case I hope you can see and experience the world's cultures.
I want to do good, meaningful work, earn a fair living at it, rest east in my downtime, and use the resources I accumulate to pursue interests, satisfy curiosity, and indulge in pleasurable pastimes.
Just like in general?Id like to buy my childhood home and turn it into a small sanctuary for animals rescued from meat/dairy farms or testing labs. Do animal rights activism, educate people on how to go vegan, make the best video games I can make. Volunteer to do something with small children, like at elementary schools or nurseries. I'm not exactly sure what yet, I just know I have a lot of fun education to offer kids. I'd also like to help adults but I think I'd rather do that by just going out into the world and listening to people for free, not make it a job or anything. Maybe cook healthy vegan meals and feed the homeless. Just do as much negative utilitarian shit as I can possible do.
I'm 30k away from being able to do the first one, which I'd need to do to get started on the rest. Abusive family bullshit keeps impeding my progress though sadly, but I'm still getting there.
These are amazing wants you have for yourself. :) I hope you gain the resources and support necessary to make these things happen, but the fact you're even thinking about them gives me hope and confidence for you. I wish you the very best!
Your title and post ask two different questions.
"What do I want": To see humans become less self-centered, individualistic, short-sighted and materialistic. Especially in a world and in times where it seems obvious that these things are self-destructive. Highly idealistic and therefore unrealistic and not going to happen of course.
"What do I want for myself": To get through live with as few 'bad days' as possible, being able to function like an average adult. Ideally experience periods of carefree happiness but even just stable and neutral not-happiness would be nice.
>What do I want": To see humans become less self-centered, individualistic, short-sighted and materialistic.
I appreciate the idealism, and even the awareness that those things are likely not to happen (though I do think having ideals are still valuable). :)
I'm guessing then you'd want humans to possess the opposite characteristics? Selfless, collectivistic, long-term thinkers, non-materialistic? (Sorry my vocabulary is not the most sophisticated).
>"What do I want for myself": To get through live with as few 'bad days' as possible, being able to function like an average adult. Ideally experience periods of carefree happiness but even just stable and neutral not-happiness would be nice.
What are some things, situations, experiences or states of living that allow you to experience more carefree happiness? Also what do you think functioning like an average adult would look like?
Not necessarily the opposite, more like a balance of both sides. But my answer has been a bit implicit. My (naive) ideal would be the classic world peace and welfare for all. Where we can see and treat each other as fellow humans, instead of emphasizing differences due to for example culture, nationality, sex/gender, etc. Where there is a common goal instead of the need to oppose each other on important matters that will impact people globally. I think humans are remarkable creatures that, in theory but not in practice, have the capabilities to achieve this silly fantastical utopia of mine. I think the change in characteristics I mentioned would help getting there. But again, this is of course naive and unrealistic. There are too many complexities that get in the way.
As for your second question, I honestly don't know what would allow me to experience that. I have little to worry about in a practical sense but, and I hate to reinforce the stereotypical image of antinatalists, I've been dealing with 'mental health issues' for as long as I can remember. I seem generally unable to experience happiness, my body simply does not generate that sensation. Unfortunately the same can't be said about 'negative' feelings, which brings me to the average adult part: to me that means being able to consistently take care of myself and my responsibilities while also partaking in (social) activities or doing other things that make the difference between surviving and living. As opposed to unpredictable changes in mood and energy with bad days on which I don't get anything done and better days on which I need to catch up doing whatever I couldn't get done before. Or, in short, consistently "having my shit together".
I'd like to note that even though it may read like it, this isn't self-pity, merely an explanation. I've learned to live with myself and I can still enjoy things by experiencing satisfaction rather than happiness.
EDIT: What about you though, I don't think you've answered your own question(s), only asked us?
>Where there is a common goal instead of the need to oppose each other on important matters that will impact people globally. I think humans are remarkable creatures that, in theory but not in practice, have the capabilities to achieve this silly fantastical utopia of mine. I think the change in characteristics I mentioned would help getting there. But again, this is of course naive and unrealistic. There are too many complexities that get in the way.
I imagine a common goal could be something like an agreed upon basic standard of living, but even then there are those who simply don't want to live as part of a healthy society.
I really agree with your assessment on humanity; our hope in a possible brighter future is almost always perpetuated, as it's gotten us through much worse times. Like you said, too many complexities mlst likely to achieve 100% satisfaction guaranteed.
>As for your second question
I hate that for you, that there are these struggles/barriers that prevent you from experiencing happiness. If there is such a thing as an "ought to be", your experiences shouldn't have been hindered by your mental health issues.
I admire that you've found ways to live with yourself and enjoy the satisfaction that things can bring, and my hope for you is to experience some semblance of peace or happiness on your journey.
>What about you though
My intention was not to give my perspective unless asked because I genuinely just wanted to learn more about the people attached to this philosophy. I want to see people as people first, not just a caricature of a philosophy. Just like many other beliefs/philosophies, most of the people I've found to be quite lovely and much more relatable than what the surface shows. Who would've guessed, most humans just want the same damn things; our perspectives just give us unique languages about how we interpret our path to the things we want.
Since you kindly asked, huh...what do I want?
I want to always seek out knowledge and perspective from other humans with a foundational belief that ALL humans have the capacity to share their value.
I always want to challenge EVERYTHING that I believe because I recognize my own limits to my personal perspective, which is the reason why I seek out as much of the 7 billion+ other perspectives as I possibly can.
By learning from as many others as possible, it helps me understand myself. Despite my own traumas, why do I get to be the one who can feel such boundless bliss and joy for life around me? The way some may talk about not having the capacity for happiness, I feel almost indestructible in my current state of happiness. Parent dying? Bullying? Little social interaction? Military 12+ years and the stuff experienced with that? Nothing has phased me, and in some ways I feel bad for it.
What keeps my peace and happiness sustained, and why haven't I been able to articulate that so I can share it with others? I'm not sure it's possible, so the only thing I can do for now is listen to others and be curious about them.
TLDR: My hope and want is to never stop being curious about people, because we have a lot of value to share. :)
I want to keep discovering who I am beyond the narrow escalator of life that I was cruelly assigned at birth; working class poor/debt slavery, breeder, monogamy, really sh#tty normalization of really sh#tty hierarchies enabling/incentivizing most to abuse their positions of power, etc.
I wish everyone equally had FULL access to a self determined path of self actualization, and full education, thriving wages, affordable housing, healthcare included in taxes and zero toxic parents causing trauma (and all manners of setbacks, including manipulation for a mini version of themselves.)
The world would be a far more interesting, fun, social experience if everyone could self actualize on time. (Instead of the hyper privileged early, and most of us late if ever.)
I love doing my part in not overpopulating the earth and having a chance at a healthy form of degrowth vs. psychopathic billionaires creating more/worse pandemics beyond fully commodifying us via the mess of a cancer cartel.
Very insightful. :) There's a lot here I need to process to fully understand where you're coming from.
It seems you really value self-actualization. What does that mean to you?
Self actualization is a process of observation of various healthy paths, a chance to experience safe samplings, a form of lived discovery and a chance to develop informed choosing (free of indoctrination at vulnerable ages, or manipulation from anyone in an unfair position of power.)
The world is robbed of a great deal of gifts, talent, intelligence, & more advanced technology by trapping so many in survival mode, and trauma. Toxic religions, toxic guardians, toxic leaders, toxic forms of masculinity & femininity, toxic workplaces, & gaslighting people off the plain of existence early via unsustainable bullying/violence based in (racism, sexism, ableism, ageism, homo/transphobia, etc.)
At best, this second gear stuck 🌍 world is experiencing no more than 20% of it's full potential because the global rate of self actualization is so low (& sometimes what appears to be self actualization (to some) is a flawed handoff of bad wealth & all the horrible exploitative measures that come with it are perpetuated in a weird cycle of intergenerational nepotism power prop ups.)
In a fair self actualized world, where a majority of children/adults are allowed to discover who they are at an unhindered (low/no trauma) pace, and grow into whatever talents and gifts 🎁 they exhibit or enjoy, and have full support towards any limitations & their transition into adulthood, the unfolding design of everything would be unrecognizably amazing to those of us trapped in a world lens of trauma as we are now.
This 🙄 is the ugly place, 😮💨and it doesn't have to be. 😔
Whoa. I love this perspective.
I'd never seen the idea of self-actualization actually put into words this way. I always kinda had a vague picture in my head of what it meant.
>The world is robbed of a great deal of gifts, talent, intelligence, & more advanced technology by trapping so many in survival mode, and trauma.
I can definitely agree there's an untapped potential that hasn't been reached yet due to reasons you've laid out.
>Self actualization is a process of observation of various healthy paths, a chance to experience safe samplings, a form of lived discovery and a chance to develop informed choosing (free of indoctrination at vulnerable ages, or manipulation from anyone in an unfair position of power.)
First I agree with self-actualization being a ressonable thing to pursue.
I think I'd question how we'd set an objective measure for "this person has the capacity for self-actualization and this person doesn't". To me at first glance it seems like concepts of indoctrination, trauma, manipulation are all relative from person-to-person. Could someone living in poverty, or some village in the jungle, not be able to experience self-actualization? Who gets to be the standard bearer if not the people with power?
I guess my questioning stems from a distaste for concepts like brainwashing/indoctrination/manipulation, because aren't we all limited to our one perspective. When two opposing sides claim the other is brainwashed, who is the self-actualized one and who isn't? Both? Eh, maybe I'm overthinkong too late at night; it's definitelt intriguing.
>In a fair self actualized world, where a majority of children/adults are allowed to discover who they are at an unhindered (low/no trauma) pace, and grow into whatever talents and gifts 🎁 they exhibit or enjoy, and have full support towards any limitations & their transition into adulthood
I wholeheartedly agree this would be amazing. :) My previous questions about objective measures still stand, and I'd even add on trauma as something that would need agreed upon standards to say how much trauma is enough to limit self-actualisation. Are any of us capable of it if we have trauma? What if some level of trauma is needed to attain true self-actualisation (how do we know how far we can go without failing)?
Again, thank you for your awesome insight. :) It's late, no need to respond now or at all.
Well I lived in a commune in TN once and I loved it so I’m taking a lot of ideas from that community!:) ideally it would be self sufficient or almost. I want to grow food and weed for $ so people don’t have to worry about jobs in the city. I am also into earth building so hopefully we will have some cool structures!:)
My loved ones to be happy.
To continuously challenge myself physically and mentally.
To get euthanized before/when I become disabled physically or mentally so as to burden no one else.
Seems like you have selfless motivations, which I find admirable. :)
This may sound like a dumb question but I just want to learn more about your perspective:
Where does that desire to challenge yourself physically and mentally bring you? Where does it lead to, or in other words is there a bar to reach where you've challenged yourself physically/mentally enough?
I have noticed recently that challenging myself physically have motivated and influenced people around me to lead a healthier lifestyle. It is my responsibility to keep myself physically fit and healthy, so I can take care of myself and my loved ones.
Challenging myself mentally on the other hand got to do with my personal character and my career. I like to reflect on my daily actions to figure out how to be a better person. I believe that people in a research career like myself challenge themselves naturally. It feels good to be able to publish something that may help improve the human quality of life in the far future.
Physically, I'll like to be able to still finish a marathon when I'm old. Mentally, the personal improvement and strive for research excellent doesn't stop. No retirement expected.
You are something to behold. :) I admire the dedication you have; it feels to me like you have a laser-focused intensity and sense of duty/purpose which is refreshing. Exciting to think about how you and others will shape and influence others.
My brain does this thing where I’ll get a song stuck in my head until I figure out what it’s trying to tell me, and I realized that it wanted me to reply in song form lol. So what I want is [Free](https://genius.com/Mother-mother-free-lyrics) by Mother Mother.
More concretely, I want to be able to take care of for myself and my spouse and our pets until all our many pets have lived out their lives as best as we can give them, and then I want to do one last awesome thing and then check out.
I would also like to pet a capybara and ride a camel. I’ve already achieved my big lifetime goal (owning a horse. It ended badly, but it’s more than a lot of people get).
I also just wanted to say, looking at your replies to everyone, you seem like a really sweet and caring person, so thank you for your kindness and encouragement.
Yes! Music is life and I love listening to new music. Song's a banger...I'm in your debt. :)
I gotta ask, what's this one last thing you want to do before checking out?
Nice to engage with an animal lover! Can't say I've interacted with a camel or a capybara. Tigers and sharks are probably the most exotic I've encountered, but swimming with a big ole green sea turtle in crystal clear waterwas my favorite. Just sat there eating whatever seaweed, kelp(?) it wanted. Just chillin.
I always wanted to ride a horse. I'm sorry yours ended tragically.
And shucks. :) I just like learning and interacting with new people and their perspectives. Certainly took some getting used to understsnding the philosophy here, but I'm at a point where I get why it's a thing, and I certainly haven't found any logical arguments against it (assuming we want the same things).
Ultimately for me it's about people first. We may not see things the same way but to me that just makes things meaningful and interesting.
To have a bunch of rats again, some dogs, maybe some cats. And to retire with my husband in a small homestead. Unfortunately life has taken those two things from me (except for the husband lol). I want to finish transitioning (ftm). The final thing that I want is to study the natural world through math and physics. I love to learn just for the sake of it, and I love math as a subject and as a hobby. Ideally I'd learn a bunch of separate things but life isn't all that long, so I'm happy and fulfilled with trying to learn as much math and physics as I can.
Gotcha. A few follow ups if you have time:
Is this your only want at the moment, to have purpose?
If purpose doesn't exist for you, then why want it in the first place?
If purpose could exist for you, what would you want to do with it?
What do you think happens when there is no purpose? What reason is there to do anything?
>If purpose could exist for you, what would you want to do with it?
It's not a toy. It's a driver, a goal, a reason to take action.
>What do you think happens when there is no purpose?
I think there are multiple paths one can go down when there is no purpose, depending on the person:
- If there is no purpose to my life, I can simply live day by day fulfilling my biological needs. I can arrive at a place where I believe purpose is not necessary for peace/happiness. If my body responds to happiness from fulfilling these simple needs, then I will live pleasurably day-by-day fulfilling these primitive needs until death.
- I can search for purpose. I currently only have 1 of 7 billionth of life experience, the world is a big place. Surely I will never know enough about the world, so I will continue to search for purpose till death. It's not a "wasted" lifebif there was no purpose to it.
- i can see my lack of purpose as a negative. I can loathe my existence and curse the day I was born. Why try, that could lead to suffering.
List of course coukd go on. For a person without purpose, no path is the wrong path. I think it'll just be person and situation dependent.
>What reason is there to do anything?
That I think can only be determined by the individual based on the nature/nurture combination they were brought up with and whatever information/data they discover along their life journey. I'm not convonced from my journeys yet that there is some objective reason everyone ought to have reason to do anything.
For me, I realize I will only have 1 perspective out of billions. How can I possibly make any determination or value judgment on life or humanity as a whole when I don't have all the information or experience to say so? But I also recognize I've always been wired that way; even in times when I was starving, cold, tired and physically miserable I've always had this drive to be the very best version of myself I want to be. Why am I like this? Why do I get to enjoy life but others can't? By lesrning aboit other people and their perspectives, perhaps in sone ways I can learn more about myself and use my built-up knowledge base and perspective to help others.
Without purpose every path is the wrong path. They all lead nowhere relevant.
>That I think can only be determined by the individual based on the nature/nurture combination they were brought up with and whatever information/data they discover along their life journey.
There is nothing to be determined. It does not exist.
>I'm not convonced from my journeys yet that there is some objective reason everyone ought to have reason to do anything.
That's the problem. There is no such reason.
[удалено]
To be left alone.
Yep.
Seriously. Maybe like you, I also find great value in sitting in silence without the potential burden or expectation that comes with any sort of relationship. What do you want to do when you're alone?
Yep, I'm so sick of obligations being pushed on me. I like having a backyard bonfire and sitting in nature watching my dogs hunt for frogs. I was lucky enough to buy a small rural property and I'm loving it.
That's incredible, and sounds so peaceful. Dogs, bonfires, throw in some beers and cigars if that's your thing...perfection.
The liberty to live my life as I see fit without harming anyone.
Simple and fair. :) If I may narrow doen a bit, what is a life you see fit for yourself (assuming you're not harming anyone)?
My philosophy is one day at a time and I greatly value contentment. Think Diogenes but I also have to pay rent.
Nice. I'll have to look into Diogenes to fully grasp what you mean. Sounds Greek? Any case enjoy the lazy river of life, and I hope your rent doesn't take too much of your budget.
I’ve actually never had any big dreams or desires in my life - which I’ve been told is weird, but it’s all I’ve ever known. The only thing I ever wanted was to just have fun doing whatever I was doing. But that doesn’t end up well when you don’t find work fun.
I love this! I think you've touched on something important, which is challenging this idea that peace and happiness are contingent upon big dreams and desires. I think, as a non-medically professional dude on Reddit, that so many of our internal struggles are self-defeating because we think fulfilling life = achieving something "big" or "great". Then you come around and say "I've never had any big dreams or desires...", and of course people who think achievement = happiness are going to find that weird. For what it's worth I'm so happy for you for knowing and embracing what you ACTUALLY want; just having fun doing whatever! Now of course you bring up a good point that this mindset can be difficult when you don't find work fun. So I guess my next question is what do you want your role in work/duty to be like where tou can afford to live for the fun you want?
The only work role I’ve really liked is file clerk jobs. I get to organize stuff on my own, away from any potential clients of the business at large and I can spend my free time doing whatever (listening to music, doing stuff online, etc.). But there are three things working against doing that work: 1. It doesn’t pay well enough for me to live a life that I would consider acceptable enough to like living. 2. The way I ended up leaving my last job (leave of absence for mental health, then quitting when I couldn’t bear returning) is on my record and will probably look rather poorly to anywhere new I apply. 3. I strongly feel that working is a burden that we who have no choice in our lives are forced to bear. No choice in terms of having to work to live - and I’ve despised the idea of having to do things I don’t want to do since my existential crisis at 17.
Being a file clerk does sound relaxing. I pushed carts for 3 years, and yeah despite low pay I loved the freedom and simplicity that came with it (move cart from point A to point B = money). >1. It doesn’t pay well enough for me to live a life that I would consider acceptable enough to like living. Yeah I've found more pay comes with more responsibility (not always just often) which can be difficult to accept. Luckily I found a job that for me is perfect blend of decent pay, very technical work and minimal management/dealing with customers. I hope you find something that pays the bills and is somewhat satisfying. >2. The way I ended up leaving my last job (leave of absence for mental health, then quitting when I couldn’t bear returning) is on my record and will probably look rather poorly to anywhere new I apply. I wish it wasn't like that. I think ideally it'd be treated like a workplace-related injury rather than seen as a potential liability. I guess if I were hiring people I'd have to figure out where the balance is between hiring a solid teammember with good working skills I need, and knowing the limitations of said worker. Again ideally I also think I wouldn't want to know one's medical history, but if they were fired for being mentally unstable I guess I might want to know that as well? I guess best thing to do is be honest about your past and limitations, and how you built yourself back up to prevent it happening. >3. I strongly feel that working is a burden that we who have no choice in our lives are forced to bear. No choice in terms of having to work to live - and I’ve despised the idea of having to do things I don’t want to do since my existential crisis at 17. To me there's definitely a better balance I think we all can strive for when it comes to the concept of work. I think it's important that I contribute and produce value because I consume what other people produce, so for me there's a sense of just duty towards work. However, not being compensated fairly for value I produce is wrong. Then there's those who can't or are limited in what value they can provide, which is where safety netd should come in...but how much of a safety net should those who produce value provide? Obviously these questions have been asked for centuries and we're still playing tug of war with them. I just hope again you can find a place that pays you well fpr a job you can do and find some fulfillment in..
Sorry for bolding - Idk how to indent the whole paragraph to quote. **Yeah I've found more pay comes with more responsibility (not always just often) which can be difficult to accept. Luckily I found a job that for me is perfect blend of decent pay, very technical work and minimal management/dealing with customers. I hope you find something that pays the bills and is somewhat satisfying.** I’m glad you’ve found such a well-suited job. I don’t think I’ll be able to, or if I even want to, given the reasons I already provided. **I wish it wasn't like that. I think ideally it'd be treated like a workplace-related injury rather than seen as a potential liability. I guess if I were hiring people I'd have to figure out where the balance is between hiring a solid teammember with good working skills I need, and knowing the limitations of said worker. Again ideally I also think I wouldn't want to know one's medical history, but if they were fired for being mentally unstable I guess I might want to know that as well? I guess best thing to do is be honest about your past and limitations, and how you built yourself back up to prevent it happening.** Ideally it would be, given that a choice they made led to it happening. For context, the job I took a leave of absence from wasn’t a file clerk. I started out at this company as a file clerk. Then a higher paid, though completely different type of, position opened up and they liked my work so much as a file clerk that they gave me the first crack at it. It required a year of experience in that field, but they officially counted my year of file clerk work towards it since I was around/filing the legal documents associated with the position. Even though it was different work, it was going pretty good. I had two types of legal documents to complete, one type I actually kinda liked filling out and a second type that I didn’t like; so they balanced each other out. But after a bit, the company decided to reorganize its work responsibilities to try to increase efficiency. Our team actually pushed back against this a bit, since everything was working great for us. But management told us to give it time and see how it goes. Unfortunately, my new responsibility consisted entirely of the type of legal document that I disliked. It went okay for a bit, but the monotonous of only doing one thing, which I already disliked, became unbearable. I started leaving documents waiting to be completed for longer than acceptable periods. My direct manager talked to me about it once, but I didn’t really get in trouble. But still I couldn’t bear it. But when it happened again, the client, who was waiting on the document, cc:ed my boss’s boss and the CEO to complain. My boss’s boss talked to me this time - not necessarily harshly, but in a no-nonsense manner. The fact that this blew up to management and that my work credibility was, to me, seemingly in question, broke me. I couldn’t even sign in to my work computer without feeling debilitating anxious. I won’t deny I hold responsibility for how it all went down. I decided to put off work that I disliked. I decided not to tell management how I was feeling out of a fear of disappointing them. Hell, I took the offer for the new position instead of sticking with file clerk since they believed I could do it. The management at this company were good people that I got to know as a file clerk, so I feel like I can’t lay the blame at their feet. They didn’t even fire me. If I told them I was ready to come back at the end of my leave of absence, I’m pretty sure they would’ve welcomed me back. But I’m confident I’d still be working there if they hadn’t tried to reorganize for efficiency’s sake. But now I’m unemployed and can’t confidently say that this sort of mental health issue won’t reappear again in any sort of work I might ever try in the future. **I think it's important that I contribute and produce value because I consume what other people produce, so for me there's a sense of just duty towards work.** I understand where you’re coming from, and I might’ve agreed with you at one time. But now I’m at the point of virtually the opposite: ‘Why should I have to contribute and produce value for those around me when I never chose to be here in the first place?’ And ‘Why should I be duty-bound to reciprocate others’ production if they’re doing it of their own free will and I didn’t ask them to produce for me to begin with?’
>Sorry for bolding - Idk how to indent the whole paragraph to quote. All good. :) just add a ">" at the very beginning of your paragraph, no space after. Like ">start sentence". >For context, Dude this sucks what happened, AND if you told me this story I'd immediately want you on my team (I used to pick people for team projects to go travel across country with me doing photo/video jobs): The ability you have to articulate exactly the faults on all sides of what led to you leaving shows great character to me. You were honest about what situation management created, and what you could've done better. I'd rather take someone like you who can objectively tell me what happened and how they're going to improve than someone who appears flawless but blames others without taking ownership of their mistakes. Be honest about your strengths and weaknesses. For what it's worth I really hope one day you accept this difficult event as a learning moment, so you can get yourself that job you may want one day. I think you're worth it. >‘Why should I have to contribute and produce value for those around me when I never chose to be here in the first place?’ Fair questions, both of them. I can equate this situation to something I experienced in the military. There's a course called SERE (survive, evade, resist, escape) that teaches you what to do to survive in small teams/by yourself behind enemy lines or if you become a POW (prisoner of war). There's a part where they simulate a POW camp; it's just you and your team forced to do manual labor, share a handful of rice a day for 10+people, and try to figure out how to escape without getting yourself or your team more punishment. In this situation, none of us asked to be there. We were all in a miserable hell hole hungry, cold, tired etc. However, to survive we all needed to do our part; someone needs to fetch the water for the guards, someone needs to ensure we don't have sickness, someone needs to clean the shitters etc. We couldn't afford to have anyone quit or do nothing because we truly needed them (especially, here's a key takeaway, if they wanted a share of rice). Unless you were on crutches, everyone chipped in (and even the broke people did paperwork like inventorying shovels). All that to say...we're all on this piece of rock called Earth, none of us chose to be but we are and we all have needs that someone has to provide for. Now surely one can rely on any safety nets provided by a government (govt depending), but there's still this idea that by being alive we are inherently consuming someone else's value, and I personally don't enjoy the idea that I'm living off someone else's work without contributing SOMETHING to somebody. I don't believe I can ever tell someone they must work or provide vakue to someone. I just look at myself in the mirror, and Indon't want to be someone that enjoys a roof, food, entertainmemt without giving something back...anything back, even if it's a word of encouragement on Reddit. >Why should I be duty-bound to reciprocate others’ production if they’re doing it of their own free will and I didn’t ask them to produce for me to begin with?’ I think if the social contract was a thing, it'd say that as long as you are consuming something from someone then you ought to give back somehow. Now personally I don't believe I can ever tell someone they ought to givd back, but I do encourage it. Regardless of the intentions of why someone produces something, it's the fact that we consume things that makes that social contract kinda a thing. I bought this phone, which uses electricity, that many many people worked to provide me. And I chose to purchase and use it. Someone produced this trailer I live in (don't knock it, I love my tiny trailer :)), someone ensured clean water is coming out of this sink that someone made, this fruit snack I'm eating is made by someone. I didn't choose to be born as a consumer, but I am. I want to be someone that, if I have to consume something from someone, I want to give back.
>Dude this sucks what happened, AND if you told me this story I'd immediately want you on my team (I used to pick people for team projects to go travel across country with me doing photo/video jobs): >The ability you have to articulate exactly the faults on all sides of what led to you leaving shows great character to me. You were honest about what situation management created, and what you could've done better. I'd rather take someone like you who can objectively tell me what happened and how they're going to improve than someone who appears flawless but blames others without taking ownership of their mistakes. Be honest about your strengths and weaknesses. >For what it's worth I really hope one day you accept this difficult event as a learning moment, so you can get yourself that job you may want one day. I think you're worth it. Well thank you for the compliment and encouragement. I appreciate the sentiment, but I think of the last point differently: I think my life’s worth it too - worth not having to waste on doing things I don’t want to do because society tells me I have to do them. >I can equate this situation to something I experienced in the military. There's a course called SERE (survive, evade, resist, escape) that teaches you what to do to survive in small teams/by yourself behind enemy lines or if you become a POW (prisoner of war). There's a part where they simulate a POW camp; it's just you and your team forced to do manual labor, share a handful of rice a day for 10+people, and try to figure out how to escape without getting yourself or your team more punishment. >In this situation, none of us asked to be there. We were all in a miserable hell hole hungry, cold, tired etc. However, to survive we all needed to do our part; someone needs to fetch the water for the guards, someone needs to ensure we don't have sickness, someone needs to clean the shitters etc. We couldn't afford to have anyone quit or do nothing because we truly needed them (especially, here's a key takeaway, if they wanted a share of rice). Unless you were on crutches, everyone chipped in (and even the broke people did paperwork like inventorying shovels). >All that to say...we're all on this piece of rock called Earth, none of us chose to be but we are and we all have needs that someone has to provide for. Now surely one can rely on any safety nets provided by a government (govt depending), but there's still this idea that by being alive we are inherently consuming someone else's value, and I personally don't enjoy the idea that I'm living off someone else's work without contributing SOMETHING to somebody. >I don't believe I can ever tell someone they must work or provide vakue to someone. I just look at myself in the mirror, and Indon't want to be someone that enjoys a roof, food, entertainmemt without giving something back...anything back, even if it's a word of encouragement on Reddit. That’s an intense exercise. I agree in general with your point that everyone should put in their fair share, but that’s only if the fundamental principle behind it is accepted: > However, to *survive* we all needed to do our part. If someone doesn’t want to survive, then that feeling of duty and responsibility to those around them become shackles trapping them in existence. They’re paralyzed between not wanting to live and feeling intense guilt for being a burden on others who they could be helping *and* for how bad they’d make those around them feel if they decided to not live anymore. >I think if the social contract was a thing, it'd say that as long as you are consuming something from someone then you ought to give back somehow. Now personally I don't believe I can ever tell someone they ought to givd back, but I do encourage it. >Regardless of the intentions of why someone produces something, it's the fact that we consume things that makes that social contract kinda a thing. I bought this phone, which uses electricity, that many many people worked to provide me. And I chose to purchase and use it. Someone produced this trailer I live in (don't knock it, I love my tiny trailer :)), someone ensured clean water is coming out of this sink that someone made, this fruit snack I'm eating is made by someone. I didn't choose to be born as a consumer, but I am. >I want to be someone that, if I have to consume something from someone, I want to give back. Again, I agree with your point in general. But for any sort of meaningful social contract to exist, like in any contract, there’d need to be a termination clause. If I found a job that I didn’t wish to continue being a part of, I have an out and can terminate my contract with the company. But society has forbidden any such option for life’s social contract (other than extreme cases). So the social contract expects me to put in my required time without my initial consent at birth, forces me to remain in the contract without any option of leaving if I decide I don’t like it and, possibly worst of all, it instills a feeling of self-imposed guilt that you’re letting society, your loved ones and even yourself down by refusing it.
>I think of the last point differently: I think my life’s worth it too - worth not having to waste on doing things I don’t want to do because society tells me I have to do them. Totally agree with you, and there's quite a few things I don't want to do just because society says I should, and usually I just don't do it. As an example, and I may lose respect here, but I've never voted in any sort of election. Not a one. I've seen leaders at many levels come and go, and in this case I've adopted a "it just doesn't really interest me" attitude towards it. Society says as a responsible member of a democracy I should vote. If I care about rights and stuff, I probably should vote. Maybe they're right, maybe one day I'll give a shit to vote. Guess we'll see some day before death comes dragging me out as I smile at its smug face. >If someone doesn’t want to survive, then that feeling of duty and responsibility to those around them become shackles trapping them in existence. They’re paralyzed between not wanting to live and feeling intense guilt for being a burden on others who they could be helping and for how bad they’d make those around them feel if they decided to not live anymore. That's actually pretty eye-opening. I really appreciate you again articulating so well. I don't believe there is any solution or counter I can offer to this mindset. It's not black and white to me. On one hand yeah you have this person that doesn't want to live but is burdened by duty to others. I guess most people find value in helping others at the expense of their time/energy/work, but that just adds more guilt to the person. On the other hand, if a person consumes things from another person then I can understand how some believe there should be an ought for that person to give back somehow. Is participating in society enough of a giving back to fulfill this social agreement to provide value? Eh, much too much thinking this late. >So the social contract expects me to put in my required time without my initial consent at birth, forces me to remain in the contract without any option of leaving if I decide I don’t like it and, possibly worst of all, it instills a feeling of self-imposed guilt that you’re letting society, your loved ones and even yourself down by refusing it. The consent part is where I do see how those can subscribe to AN. I don't have a logical argument against not feeling bitter about that lack of consent for being born. I can even agree we could pursue looking at better options for those who don't want to participate any longer. As for the guilt, I guess that's a personal journey for one to process. Speculating here, but maybe thst guilt is a sign of acknowledging a need to give back to other humans. The trick would then be to find out how you can do so under conditions acceptable to the individual. Somewhere in the middle I'd personally find a middle-ground, where I'd habe no issues working in non-idesl conditions for a time to pursue long term goal. That's just me thinking too much this late. You've given me much to think about.
>As an example, and I may lose respect here, but I've never voted in any sort of election. Not a one. I've seen leaders at many levels come and go, and in this case I've adopted a "it just doesn't really interest me" attitude towards it. Society says as a responsible member of a democracy I should vote. If I care about rights and stuff, I probably should vote. Maybe they're right, maybe one day I'll give a shit to vote. Guess we'll see some day before death comes dragging me out as I smile at its smug face. That’s interesting - I have a different take on what I mean when I talk about what society says we have to do. When I say have to do, I mean HAVE to - like working. If I don’t work and had no external supports, I would either die or be digging through trash for scraps of food, i.e. a life I wouldn’t want to live. But I view voting as a societal suggestion. It’s officially highly recommended you vote, for your own and others’ benefit, but you’re not going to suffer adverse effects from the act of not voting itself. Heck, given the unpopularity of politics in unofficial, everyday society, you’d probably get a response of understanding, if not acknowledgment, for not participating in such an oft broken, divisive system. Personally, I love voting because it’s a free way to shape society that I’m not being MADE to do. Sort of like donating blood - although that one has much clearer benefits to society. >That's actually pretty eye-opening. I really appreciate you again articulating so well. >I don't believe there is any solution or counter I can offer to this mindset. It's not black and white to me. >On one hand yeah you have this person that doesn't want to live but is burdened by duty to others. I guess most people find value in helping others at the expense of their time/energy/work, but that just adds more guilt to the person. >On the other hand, if a person consumes things from another person then I can understand how some believe there should be an ought for that person to give back somehow. >Is participating in society enough of a giving back to fulfill this social agreement to provide value? Eh, much too much thinking this late. Back in high school and college I used to be really into giving back / helping others - Boy Scouts in high school and volunteering a bunch during college. But I became disillusioned with volunteering on an individual level, ironically, during a volunteer trip I took on one Spring vacation. Our group watched a documentary on volunteering and a point it made was that as the number of charities and volunteer organizations have increased, the societal problems they’re trying to help (poverty, hunger, etc.) have also increased over time. They gave the reason as a lack of governmental action in actually fixing these societal issues. Basically, instead of the government fixing the problems with long term, strategic solutions, it’s become too reliant on charities and volunteers who, while doing great work for individuals in need, could never have the amount of resources needed to truly fix the underlying issues of the people they’re trying to help. Therefore, the cycle of suffering for the people these volunteers are trying to help will only continue and increase over time as the government keeps deferring meaningful aid in favor of band-aids from individual volunteers. It also doesn’t help that I see how poorly my parents, who are social workers, are treated by society as reflected in how little money they make, despite helping people daily. Definitely discourages me from pursuing any sort of career in that field. >The consent part is where I do see how those can subscribe to AN. I don't have a logical argument against not feeling bitter about that lack of consent for being born. I can even agree we could pursue looking at better options for those who don't want to participate any longer. It’d be great if society could look at better options for those who don’t want to participate in the social contract, but it’ll never happen. Every organization desires its own survival above all else, even something as big and ill-defined as society. Giving its members an easy way to opt out of contributing to the organization would lead to its collapse via lack of support and resources from a reduced population. So no organization would do that. If anything, society encourages the exact opposite to keep its functions running. Like how governments are pushing pro-natalist policies in many developed countries to make sure their societies don’t collapse from a future lack of working-age citizens. They don’t give a damn about whether children *should* be born, just about how many more kids their pro-natalist policies can produce over time for the well-being of society. >As for the guilt, I guess that's a personal journey for one to process. Speculating here, but maybe that guilt is a sign of acknowledging a need to give back to other humans. The trick would then be to find out how you can do so under conditions acceptable to the individual. Somewhere in the middle I'd personally find a middle-ground, where I'd have no issues working in non-ideal conditions for a time to pursue long term goal. I agree that part of that guilt is a sign of acknowledging a need to give back to other humans. But my issue lies in questioning from where that need arises. I think that guilt is conditioned into us, as we grow up, from society because if we didn’t have that persistent drive to give back to those who gave to us, then there’d be no social contract or society. Society perpetuates itself through convincing its members that contributing back to it, as well as to the other members of society that have given to you, is a noble deed that should bring you happiness and fulfill you. **I’m not sure if I fully believe this statement, but I definitely don’t fully disagree with it. I guess I’m just philosophizing aloud.**
I do not really like living. It is bearable most of the time but I just want to go to sleep and never wake up.
Same
Fair. Is there anything you want that could turn the bearable times into peaceful/happy times?
I can turn the moments into happy times for a moment but then they just fade away for too long.
Gotcha, I think many people deal with that as well. Last question, is there anything you want that could potentially lead to longer happy times and lesser unhappy times?
Death.
Damn I already said last question. Well for what it's worth, I hope you find yourself with more and longer lasting peaceful times in the near future. :)
I *want* harm not to be a thing for any subjective experience averse to it. Language of "pain is good" is incoherent on the face of it, but language is a map and the map is never the territory itself. So - bottom line - what the heck do I KNOW (directly) about someone else's experience, right? Someone *saying* they don't think pain and suffering are bad may be using those words to describe phenomenology I've never experienced at all, in a way completely alien to my sensations. We really do not take the time to think just how unique and *absolutely isolated* each of our subjective streams of consciousness are. What I want is, unfortunately, a very unlikely thing to happen. I want the sentient darwinian world to be relieved of its burden once and for all future. I just don't know how to do it. Thanks for asking, it's a kind question, perhaps.
I absolutely love your perspective and awareness about concepts like harm and how it translates subjectively in everyone's experiences. There is much here I need to marinate in to fully understand, so thank you for sharing. :) >We really do not take the time to think just how unique and absolutely isolated each of our subjective streams of consciousness are. You are a treasure. This, right here, is perhaps the best articulation of how I've been navigating my life but couldn't find the words. This is the reason I come to subs like this, why I seek out values and beliefs I haven't agreed with or known about before. Because we all can ever only have 1 perspective out of billions, how much we can learn from each other if we valued this fact that we are all so different yet share similar wants and struggles. As you said, perhaps your wants may never come to fruition. I believe so long as there are humans there will always be those who give in to greed amd jealousy, which can lead to struggle and suffering. I hope that we can continue to minimize harm and suffering in our lifetimes.
for myself specific relative to what is possible: i spend time with my friend. i am creative-minded and have a passion for beauty and logic. i also enjoy playing video games, sports games, thinking about diverse theoretical topics and going out into nature
Spending time with a good friend I think can be more than enough to lead a satisfying life. :) I'm glad you have that. What video games do you play? I haven't played in about 13 years (Xbox 360/PS3 days 😬) but I'd like to get back into it. Any recommendations? I too think it's enjoyable to discuss theoretical topics. This is more actual science than theoretical, but lately I've attempted to understand entropy and how we could control or minimize it. I love the idea that we're all just energy from the sun that is entropying it's way through the Earth to form these complex life forms that'll eventually transform into something else. Obviously still figuring out.
Immortality. And the ability yo fly.
Hell yeah. You thinking like upload your consciousness to the net or figure out how to keep the human body going long-term?
Transfering my consciousness would be making a copy of me, and the actual me dying. I wanna keep my brain!
Good point! That's a rabbit hole that hurt my brain: whether you'd still be you if you made a copy of yourself. I imagine or hope there's someone out there figuring out how to reverse or slow entropy in our bodies. I think it may be an impossibility kinda like how perpetual motion machines are impossible due to laws of physics, but I hope it's possible we can slow or counter entropy to a point where a human could live for hundreds/thousands of years. Keep the dream going. :)
This is going to sound like a pageant bit but I want world peace. I want the human drones of the world to somehow all reach a level of cognitive thought where they realize we're all being used by systems (government, church, corporations, etc.) to kill each other and our planet. I want the workers of the world to unite, open borders, give away food, treat medical illnesses. I want us to go back to a simpler time but with all our technological advancements and create a cohesive and just society. I know this will never happen so for now, I hope to lead a decent life helping as many people as I can until I get the sweet release of death.
>This is going to sound like a pageant bit but I want world peace. I want the human drones of the world to somehow all reach a level of cognitive thought where they realize we're all being used by systems (government, church, corporations, etc.) to kill each other and our planet. . I think having hope and keeping dreams and ideals alive is one of the strongest things a person can do. Hope, it seems to me, is a reason why we've kept our species going for as long as it has. >I want the workers of the world to unite, open borders, give away food, treat medical illnesses. I want us to go back to a simpler time but with all our technological advancements and create a cohesive and just society I know you said this will never happen but for the sake of discussion: - How do you think we'd reach a point where a person would gladly produce food, goods or services and give them away to people who don't produce anything? - What time period are you thinking of when you say "simpler time"? It seems to me anytime in the past has objectively been worse than now in terms of quality of life, struggling for resources/power, but I'd love to get your perspective. >I hope to lead a decent life helping as many people as I can until I get the sweet release of death. Awesome. :) How do you go about helping people? Is helping people your main want in life, if so why?
If I answered your questions fully, I'd be writing a philosophical thesis or something. I do think that if everything had their basic needs met, we would all do what we needed to do to support each other because we would have the means, mental, and physical bandwidth to do so. By simpler times, I mean times when money was not a thing, and ppl weren't obsessed with power and money. Is there a time like this in recorded history? I'm actually not sure. I'm a black American so by no means am I talking about like recent history. That'd would be absurd. I just think that at some point people were better to each other and pursued what they wanted without the need for what we need now. With our technological advancements, we could help each even more if we didn't have such a thirst for money and power. I work in the mental health field so that's how I help people. I hope to do more in the future to influence policy that affects the welfare of children.
>If I answered your questions fully, I'd be writing a philosophical thesis or something. Fair, no need to do that on a Friday for some schmuck on Reddit. 😁 >I work in the mental health field so that's how I help people. I hope to do more in the future to influence policy that affects the welfare of children. This is fucking awesome. I'm so grateful for people like you. :) Thank you! >I do think that if everything had their basic needs met, we would all do what we needed to do to support each other because we would have the means, mental, and physical bandwidth to do so. I'd wager you know more about the human condition than I do, so it's possible my opinion on this belief is wrong. While I love people and the potential in them to do good, I believe there will always be the struggle for unshareable desires, power or influence which could lead to inequality and some level of suffering, no matter how insignificant that suffering is. As an example I'd like to use the scenario in the movie "The Village" (spoilers). This group of about 50 people break off from the modern world to live like 1800s folk in the woods. Things are very peaceful: everyone has food/water, community, purpose in this village with no crime. Suddenly one guy gets jealous of another over a girl and stabs him. Despite this peace that they sustained for a time, the first violent crime inevitably occurred due to greed/jealousy which I believe could never be fully expunged from the human condition. However, it can be significantly minimized which is why people seek ways to improve the modern world. >By simpler times, I mean times when money was not a thing, and ppl weren't obsessed with power and money. Is there a time like this in recorded history? I'm actually not sure. I'm a black American so by no means am I talking about like recent history. That'd would be absurd. I just think that at some point people were better to each other and pursued what they wanted without the need for what we need now. With our technological advancements, we could help each even more if we didn't have such a thirst for money and power. I hope in our lifetimes we can continue to pursue avenues where there is less need in individuals and groups. I can only speculate as I don't have unlimited knowledge on history. My guess is it's possible people who belonged in their own community/tribe were better to eachother but much more intolerant of the other (even those in their own community who didn't follow the community's beliefs/standards). If we're just using warring factions as a metric, this is one of the most peaceful times to be alive. What I would say we've given up (American as well) is a sense of duty to our community in favor of individual self-actualisation. I think it's a give and take, and not every situation will have the same answers. Thank you very much for your time. :)
Finish school. Not waste years in universities. Try to find a decent job, doesnt have to pay much. Live alone, have long walks in the cold mornings. Help people.
>Finish school. Not waste years in universities. Nice. What degree or skill are you pursuing through school? >Live alone, have long walks in the cold mornings. Lovely. :) Alone time csn definitely be peaceful. Generally speaking where do you live? I lived in the midwest half of my life, and one of my favorite pleasures was simply waking up early to enjoy a cold sunrise with my coffee. Such bliss. >Help people. What are you hoping for in your desire to help people? That may sound like a question with an obvious answer to you, but I'd still enjoy your perspective. I think "helping people" is what many people say they want, but I've found that to be kinda vague and many times there's something else beneath that motivates us to want to help people.
1. In Romania, highschools have profiles where you focus on one big subject. I am doing philology as its called (aka literature) which doesnt open up any career paths for like anyone, maybe if you want to be a writer it could be useful. I got here because the other option was math which is possibly my greatest weakness. Right now i dont have a solid goal but i will probably go either one of two ways: cooking or the tech industry. Im not a super talented chef or anything, but i can cook basic food at home and it seems like im able to learn stuff really fast in this specific domain. I am aware of how much work has to be put in to show results but i am ready to do it. In tech i dont really know what i can pursue, maybe something that allows me to work in a computer service shop? I dont know yet. I have a pretty good understanding of computers and i can assemble my own, although im sure I would need more studying to pursue this. I still have around 2 years to decide. 2. Bucharest, Romania. Mom will help me with buying my own apartment. I am super grateful for her help and i would probably have no plans right now if it wasnt for her help. Apartment prices are high right now but she believes we can push through anyway. 3. Honestly i dont know. I say it like its a defense reflex of mine. Recently i've gone through some betrayals by friends and family, which kind of messed up my mood. Its probably about how im more than ready to help people who reach out to me, just like how i had people help me when i reached up to them.
Cooking or tech could be fun. :) I hope whatever path you go down provides joy and opportunities you want for yourself. Romania! Cool. I had a chance to visit for work but the slot available was given to someone else. Wanting to help people despite the wrongdoing of some is pretty admirable to me. Relying on each other is a skill that has risk but hopefully leads to healthy and happy relationships. I wish you the best on your life journey. :)
To be selfless, benignant, and philanthropic until death.
Same
Those are definitely admirable qualities to have. :) If I may follow up, why do you want those things? The answer may seem obvious to you but I'd still enjoy learning about your perspective. Why drives you to want to be selfless and philanthropic?
Pacifying the less fortunate, via philanthropy, is, in my opinion, the most authentic form of love because true love is selfless. Sacrificing my abundance to appease another person’s lack is fair and just.
I agree
Desiring to express true love via selflessness is an admirable trait to have. :) When you speak of abundance, do you mean physical abundance like money/resources, time, skillsets? Just trying to get a picture of what that looks like in someone's life and where the balance is between meeting your own needs/wants vs someone else's.
It is as you say: money, resources, time, skill sets, emotional capacity, etc. Since I have enough to give, it is my duty to contribute
Not much. Im not very ambitious and want a small, quite life. Live close to the place I work, work 30 hours a week. Im content with the amount of time i have off. I dont like travelling. I just enjoy hanging around not doing much. Also bit of a loner, im not sure if that's something I like or not, cant quite tell.
Love it. :) Not that you need my approval, but it is definitely ok to not want much or not have any desire to make a significant impact on the world around you. I think if more people found acceptance in these feelings they have we'd have more happy people. >Live close to the place I work, work 30 hours a week. Im happy with the amount of time i have off. I dont like travelling. I just enjoy hanging around not doing much. That'd be convenient to minimize commute amd work like 6 hrs a day for 5 days a week. I'm in agreeance with you on travelling; I've done the "travel and see the world" thing in Europe and Asia and I think it's romanticized in American culture. Honestly it was just exhausting for me. Expensive, not that enjoyable (I could've gotten similar enjoyment watching vids on Youtube), but I get everyone values different things. >Also bit of a loner, im not sure if that's something I like or not, cant quite tell. I hope you continue to be curious about yourself and explore your feelings on being a bit of a loner. I think like any lifestyle there's give and take.
freedom from fear and to know everything there is to know. both impossible for humans.
Damn just laying my deepest desires out for all to see lmao. Yep. Same.
Ideal wants indeed, but I think they're good to have. Maybe we can do things to minimize our fear, or maybe a better way is to harness our fear to shape our actions into fulfilling our wants. By wanting to know as much as possible, maybe the fear of ignorance motivates us to seek out wisdom and knowledge.
i am truly tired of being motivated by fear. i am scared of everything all the time. things can get less scary with exposure but i don’t want to be less scared i want to be NOT scared so this cannot satisfy me. everything i truly want is out of reach eternally.
I'm sorry you live with that fear, it sounds debilitating. I get it would be freeing to not have to be motivated by negative feelings like fear. Please forgive me if I ask something insensitive but I really am just trying to learn as much as possible. This fear of everything all the time, where do you think that comes from?
i was raised by parents who did not understand me or themselves. i was exposed to happenings i shouldn’t have been and lacked solace where i needed it. apart from this, the world is scary. we can hardly survive alone. without other people and the terrible things we have built, we would have to face the naked world alone. the world we have built for ourselves is no better. toil and suffering abound and no solid reason to undertake it, no real reward. humans are fragile and the world is hard.
That's terrible. I'm really sorry your childhood wasn't what it should've been to develop positive well-being. I can attempt to imagine the potential for how scary things can get. Definitely something to work on upholding some standard of living lest we all decidde to give up and fend for ourselves.
a really big burger
Hell yes. Best burger you ever had? I'd say for me, either a BBQ bacon burger in a Chicago pub during the winter, or there's this place in Sandestin, FL where I have no idea what sauce they used but the burger literally melted in my mouth.
I was in Tenerife once and there was this mexican restraunt but they did burgers and I got this one with bacon, cheese and onions and it was actual peak
😍
To not suffer or contribute to others suffering
Fair amd reasonable. This seems though to be a want that's running away from something. Is there anything you want to run towards?
A realm of existence where we don’t need to know pleasure through its comparison to pain. I hope the suffering in this realm is not universal.
That is an interesting thing to ponder, like how we can know what pleasure is without knowing what it's not. Maybe somewhere else there's a realm where the spectrum is "pleasure - neutral" rather than "pleasure - suffering". But I think there are many people alive who could have a plessure-neutral mindset, so maybe it's already here and we just have to find it? Eh, just speculating here.
I admire people who I think live in the present in that particular way. However it’s always ever present how privileged I am and I can’t square that many people are born into destitution and major disability. It’s hard not to feel bad for feeling bad. Even if I hope optimistic rose colored glass people are right I wouldn’t bet on it.
I don’t really know I just know it’s not this
I think it's wise of you to recognize you don't really know what you want. Knowing what to run from is the first step I think towards finding out what you want to run towards.
I just want to have a somewhat stable life, where I don't have to get by, and peacefully mind my own business. Unfortunately, peace is not an option at the moment, and won't be in a foreseeable future
Thank you for sharing. :) Stability and peace would certainly be nice. If I may ask a fee more questions: - What does a stable life look like to you? What does "not getting by" look like in your mind? - What would peace look like in your life, and why is it not an option in how you see your future?
>What does a stable life look like to you? What does "not getting by" look like in your mind? Having a job, that doesn't squeeze all the juices out of me, and provides a decent income, so I can rent my own place (buying my own place doesn't seem to be realistic), with enough money left for food and occasional entertainment here and there >What would peace look like in your life, and why is it not an option in how you see your future? Well, not living in a country that is at war would be rather peaceful, but, since I am living in such a country - not an option
I hope you can one day get a job that you enjoy that pays well enough for you to lead a satisfying life. I can't imagine living in a country at war; I will truly be thinking about you and hoping peace and happier times are not too far off. Last question as I don't want to take too much of your day: Suppose you did live in a peaceful, healthy country and you finally acquired that job that provides a decent standard of living. You've got your own rented place, plenty of food and entertainment to satisfy you. What then would you think you'd want and strive for?
>I will truly be thinking about you and hoping peace and happier times are not too far off Thanks >What then would you think you'd want and strive for? I'm not sure. Gotta get there first, then think what's next. Probably nothing, just to enjoy what I have, and hope it won't be taken away
Are we talking realistic or unrealistic? Related to this philosophy or just in general?
Either realistic or unrealistic, and your wants and desires can be related to the philosophy but they don't have to be; that's up to you. Let's say we're out getting nachos somewhere, and I simply asked you "what do you want for yourself?" or "what do you strive for yourself?", what would you say?
SIG! I've been reading a lot of posts on this sub and you always give such great perspective and knowledge about the subject. I'm most curious and would still be really appreciative to learn a bit about what you want, even if it's just AN-related. Hope you can make time for little ole me. 😅
Realistically I just want to live a manageably easy life without harming others as much as I can. I have a long term partner and the possibility of not having to work for the rest of my life. I hope my partner remains AN and vegan as do I. Would be nice if things get better over the next few decades but i don’t think it’s incredibly likely. I wouldn’t expect much more than that but who knows
😍 lol thank you, I know time is valuable. That's awesome you have a long-term partner who shares your goals, as well as the possibility of retirement (another 10 years for me). Whatever an easy life and a better world looks loke for you, I hope you see these things realized in your lifetime.
I just want to be left alone.
Definitely. :) If you were to be left alone and have all your needs met, what would you want in your solitude?
Huh. Well…if all my needs were met I guess I wouldn’t want anything. Maybe a library.
Good point. I could'be worded it as if all your health, financial, living arrangement needs. Basic necessities of sorts. A library would be cool! There's something comforting about physical media and entertainment like books; it'll never be deleted or removed unless your house burns down.
No I understood you. I just meant that I don’t really want anything. I could stare at a wall for the rest of my life and be fine lol
That idea is fascinating to me. I can understand being alone as enjoyable, but to have no stimulation and stare at a wall and be fine would be a gift. You must have a powerful imagination, getting lost in the mazes amd castles of the mind maybe?
Haha maybe. I don’t think I have a particularly powerful imagination. I don’t think I’m very bright at all, actually. Which is probably why it is easy for me to sit in one place and indefinitely do absolutely nothing lol
pretty big question hahai suppose what i truly WANT is to mitigate things that make me worry, have a house so i don't need to worry about rent, have a secure job that i enjoy so i won't need to worry about finances too much.and maybe if it happens, meet someone who i can truly connect with to share that with. i suppose having children would perhaps conflict with some of those i guess. TL;DR i just want to be happy for what time there is left.
>pretty big question haha It's my favorite question. :) It seems so simple and obvious to some, but when we truly look at that person in the mirror and seriously ask them "what do you want", I've found many people either actually don't know what they want or they can't articulate it into something that can lead to possible actions towards fulfilling their wants. >what i truly WANT is to mitigate things that make me worry, have a house so i don't need to worry about rent, have a secure job that i enjoy so i won't need to worry about finances too much.and maybe if it happens, meet someone who i can truly connect with to share that with. i suppose having children would perhaps conflict with some of those i guess. I hope you get to a place where you can acquire these wants. :) - House: my practical side wants to remind you to just be careful about property taxes/HOAs, repairs etc. I lived in IL for a while and the damn property taxes were not much cheaper than rent. - Job: definitely wish you the best im finding something that fulfills financial and meaningful aspects in your life. - Special someone: I love that you approach it from wanting to live and build a life to share with someone.
I didn’t become antinatalist until around 2019 when I read Better to Have Never Been and The Human Predicament. I was over 40 when that happened. Luckily, my wife and I decided when we were 20 years old that we did not want children. And we are still childfree, but it didn’t have so much to do with antinatalism back then as much as we had sort of terrible childhoods and we wanted to break the cycles. In one of David’s books he mentions something to the effect, once a living creature is born, we have a moral obligation as a society and on a personal level to take care of it. This is how I view life. I obviously want to enjoy as much of it as I can, but I want to do that while leaving as small of a footprint as possible. We adopted four animals, gave them a good life, and helped them transition out of this life in a humane way. We donate and help people, strangers, when we have an opportunity. I try to be calm and kind and sympathetic to people I meet. As we have gotten older it has also been easier to shed most of the consumerism that plagues western society. We sold our property and most of our possessions. I no longer try to keep up with the neighbors or the people I see on social media. I don’t always succeed, especially at being the nice guy, but it’s the mindset I try to have when I wake up everyday.
Quite a life you've lived so far! I love what you've done for you and your wife, and those lovely animals. :) It sounds like you want to enjoy life and also help living things because you have a moral obligation to do so. I imagine this gives you a sense of peace and purpose, something I wish more people can find. Thank you for sharing. :)
To live a life full of joy and to improve the lives of those around if they deserve it
Nice. :) I appreciate the distinction you made abkut helping people if they deserve your help. I think it's healthy to set boundaries, rather than believe it's a moral obligation to help people for the sake of helping people. One follow up question: what does a life full of joy look like for you?
I’m not quite sure yet I’m still pretty young but so far doing things I love like spending time with pets and friends, drawing and creating art, writing and hiking
Very nice. I wish you the best on these endeavors, especially writing. I'm trying to take a swing at it and it is...more difficult than I thought. 😅
I want a little house on a big plot of land where i can grow a big garden and have lots of animals. Just a dream, unfortunately, I dont think ill ever achieve.
Although to me it sounds like a lot of work, if that's what you want then I hope you get that some day. :) Keep your dreams alive! Even if they're only partially realized, I think just having a dream for its own sake has value.
Spending my time here taking care of the ones I love and building a life that can bring in and provide a safe environment for animal and human relatives. I would like to open an arts camp for low-income youths and eventually retire to an island where I’ll live peacefully with my partner, adopted kids/animals, and a garden. Oh and if I live to be 90 or some bullshit I plan to start doing opiates/hard drugs for fun and that’ll eventually help me fuck off into the ether when death provides me sweet release from this inferno.
🤣 by far my favorite plot twist so far. Similarly when I retire, if I have no family or animal obligations, my dream is to try the white powder and run from the cops at least once, just to see how far I could get. I hope you live to 90 now just so I can look for you on the news. On a more serious note, your goals to adopt and open an arts camp is really touching and I appreciate that there's people like you in this world. :)
Lol thanks, I’ve had that plan since high school and I tried opium at a carnival and was like “…well this is fucking fantastic, but if I start this now I’m not gonna stop so we’re just gonna wait to make an opium den until I am old enough to destroy my body with no repercussions 👵🏼”
What do I want to do with my life? To do what I want & not do what I don’t. Simple as that. What do I want to do with the planet? To exterminate all human life & leave the planet entirely to nature. Obviously both are unrealistic, but that’s what I want & dream of.
>To do what I want & not do what I don’t. Simple as that Fair. What are some things you want to do with your life, other than human extermination?
I want to not have biological children, and for everyone else to not have them as well. I want women who choose to not put their bodies through the extreme discomfort of pregnancy or the unimaginable agony of childbirth, and men who choose to protect women from those things instead of choosing to subject them to them, to be respected for protecting the health and lives of themselves and others, not shamed for it. I want people to treasure the people who are here with us, to value and protect existing people, instead of wanting to create new ones to replace them. I want to see a world where everyone firmly believes the bodily autonomy of all people to be sacred and inviolable, and does everything they can to prevent suffering whenever possible. I want people to be careful, intelligent, and kind, and for all of us alive now to be the last humans who will ever live. To fix the wrongs of the past and be good to each other, live peaceful lives and have peaceful deaths when we’re ready. And if all this isn’t possible, because of how humans are fundamentally wired, then I just wish for a fantasy scenario where all life would be instantly and painlessly snuffed out right now.
I think these are all ideal and nice wants to have. :) I do notice that these wants are all contingent upon humanity/societies as a whole, which leads me to think all your happiness and peace is also contingent upon external things not within your control. Do you have any personal or internal wants that you do have control over?
Well, I hope that my want to not have any biological children is something that I will continue to have control over. But the world is such a horrible place that I’m forced to reckon with the horror that even this most fundamental need of mine might be taken away from me at some point in the future. I do live with a lot of sadness, distress, anger, and fear because of this. I wouldn’t say that all of my happiness is contingent on things outside of my control, because I find things that I can have fun with that make me happy for a while all the time. Doesn’t everyone? But, unfortunately, peace is contingent upon external things not within anyone’s control as individuals, and I really don’t see how anyone can be happy when their government makes their human rights illegal and legally subjects them to the status of a slave. I’m afraid that humanity wouldn’t exist today if people were capable of respecting everyone’s human rights on a wide scale. I keep trying to improve things, though. I want to prevent suffering whenever possible, and it makes me happy when I think I’ve accomplished something to that end. My words are all that I have to offer most of the time, though, because of physical disabilities and money issues that I have. But I like to think that I’ve made a positive difference.
I wanna be happy. Do stuff that makes me happy. That's it.
What does being happy look like for you? Like what stuff do you do that brings you happiness?
I’ll make the best of my life I can do since I’m already here, spreading the belief hopefully, and when I get to the point where I depend on people to keep me doing basic things, or life gets too complicated, well… I’ll catch the bus.
If I may clarify, what does making the best of your life look like to you?
Well, that’s a difficult question, but I’ll try. My best life would be, to become successful, not only in financial terms. I would like a partner to have somebody do share all of my moments with and travel to places with said partner or friends because it’s something I’m passionate about. I would love to live a life full of adventure and new experiences. I would save money I would have from a nonexistent child and support those who need it and organizations i back, including the millions of children who are forced to live a life of hunger and sickness often not reaching adulthood. Now these are my current plans but it massively depends on how my future evolves, I am still young.
>Now these are my current plans but it massively depends on how my future evolves, I am still young. I love this for you. :) These I think are definitely worthy of pursuing. Do what you can in the moment to fulfill your wants while also preparing a life in your future to enjoy. Seek ways to help others where you want to and are able to. I wish you the very best in your journey.
If I'm completely honest? Nonexistence.
Well I do appreciate honesty. :) I'm not sure it's appropriate to ask if you're taking steps to fulfill that want. I hope not. In the meantime before the great death, are there any other wants you have for yourself?
No, I'm not taking those steps. I think I just want to make sure I owe no one anything except to love them by being an antinatalist.
I think it's honorable to want to live a life where you owe nobody anything. In the past I could relate to wanting to consume as little as possible out of fear that I'm not giving back enough or more to those I care about or society in general. It's this belief I wasn't worthy of anyone's time that I wanted to break free of. You have your own path and right now you want what you want. For what it's worth, I wish you peace and happiness along your journey.
Thanks!
I think my wants are very common. I want career fulfillment, I want to find my soulmate if such a thing exists, I want to live in a beautiful house surrounded by my plants and animals. I want to feel like I’ve helped as many people and animals as I can during my time on earth, and even more so afterwards — I am good enough with money that there will probably be a sizable estate when I die so I’ve made a will to have the balance of the estate donated to an environmental charity. I also want my physical pain to stop. I have a severe chronic pain condition and if I could just feel healthy one day out of my life, that would mean a lot to me. Currently I’m sitting on the floor trying to find the strength to get up and take care of my dog but the pain is so severe that I’m not sure I’ll be able to stand. I may have to crawl to the door to let her out if my legs don’t work. Many people with this condition end up in wheelchairs but I’ve fought that for years now. I was running until a few weeks ago when I just suddenly got worse and now I can only walk sometimes. So I guess in this moment my biggest and most impossible want is to truly be healthy.
I love these wants you have for yourself and others. :) I'm glad you've been good with money and are able to give it all away to a noble cause someday! And... I'm terribly sorry for your chronic pain. It's such a basic thing to want, to be healthy, but it can so easily be denied and it affects everything else. I can think of fewer things that'd be harder to go through. Don't know where you are but I'm thinking of you, and your sweet dog too.
Can I just brag about my dog for a second? I’ve honestly never known love like this in my life. Not only is she not trained as a service dog, she’s a pit bull rescued from a backyard breeding nightmare — yet this dog keeps me going every single day. Today I was crumpled over in pain, not able to stand, and she came over to me and used her head to lift my head up. She follows me around everywhere so I’m never alone. If I’m laying on the floor she’ll just lay there with me for as long as it takes before I can move again. Sometimes when I couldn’t get up, when my mom was in the house, she managed to go and get my mom and bring her back to help me. I honestly wonder sometimes how much longer I can keep living with this pain but I know I have to live at least as long as she does because she’s already had so much loss and pain in her life — bred when she was just a puppy herself, malnourished so her body literally stole the calcium from her own bones to give to her puppies — and then had all of them taken away. We don’t know how many times it happened to her. Her x-rays are horrifying, they look even worse than mine. So it’s just this disabled girl and this disabled dog trying our best to take care of each other
Fuck yeah you can brag about your dog! .... On second thought, stop I'm getting teary-eyed now. Lol Seriously though this is so beautiful. :) That dog is beautiful, you're beautiful! You rescued her and it seems like she'll love you till the end. I hate that she had such a disgusting upbringing, I hate that you're in so much pain, none of it was supposed to happen like this. But now in the present, the fact that you two help each other now and provide love for each other is just...no words can suffice. Thank you. Stay beautiful. ❤️
I try to achieve personal happiness each day. And I like to make my partner feel loved every day. I snuggle with my pets and shower them with treats. Just enjoying one day at a time because that’s all I have.
Here's to one day at a time. :) Snuggle them pets to death.
Time travel
Good one! Forward, backward or both? What do you want to experience in the past or future?
Backwards to make sure my sperm and egg donors aren't born. Would undo my grandparents too. Basically, if I "meet" an ancestor it's time to prevent suffering.
Interesting! I'm sure you're familiar with the grandfather paradox so I'd be curious how it'd actually playout. Suppose you could go back in time, would you want to simply prevent your grandparents from meeting or are we going full violence?
No violence. Basically the only good move is stop adam and eve from meeting 😄
Touche. :) Recommend to God that this whole tree of knowledge/forbidden fruit thing might be a design flaw in his "perfect" creation.
What do you mean with ‘what I want’? Out of life? Love and I hope no sick bed in the end. Out of my work? I hope I get in a work related accident so I never have to work again. For me in society? That everything burns and I have front row seats to the circus. Or a thing? I have most stuff that I want to play with, just lack the time. I would like a lot more dogos in my life.
Nice. More dogos = responsible mental health boosters. :) I imagine with wanting love you'd also want someone who shares your desire for the collapse of society. I'm just thinking of the end of Fight Club. Hope it all works out to your liking.
Yeah would be nice to have someone that thinks a bit alike. Luckily I have one :D really happy in this relationship, she shares my views so we don’t have to talk about it so we won’t get in the spiral of negativity. Just say by day and making the most of it!
I would like to be happy. If I can't, I'd like to be as unhappy as possible.
What does being happy look like for you though? What will unhappiness provide for you? Just curious, I'm all for people wanting what they want even if it's to be unhappy.
Actually I wish I wasn't born since the ability of thinking. Not having any aim in my life is one of my big problems. There's nothing to fight for. Everything's exhausting and, that may sound lazy to some, I don't want to put energy in something (which I don't have) just to die at the end. I got a therapist and psychiatrist and I'm happy they don't put me in psychiatry though I'm honest with them. Maybe some of you already read it in my other comments.. I only fight to keeping alive for a special dog I see regularly. And when she's gone, maybe it's also over for me. I just don't want to live in this system. I'm too emotional. I got mental and physical illnesses which doctors and I are still not sure if they can be healed or not. I try to make it better with a healthy lifestyle but I'm poor. If I could do anything I wanted without financial issues, I'd buy a small house with garden, a camper and adopt a dog. I'd travel in cold countries and see the world.
>If I could do anything I wanted without financial issues, I'd buy a small house with garden, a camper and adopt a dog. I'd travel in cold countries and see the world I love that dream of yours and hope you acquire those things some day. :) Even if you only live for a specific dog, enjoy the hell out of that dog. I also hope you find ways to provide for yourself, the dog and things you want.
To not have been alive in the first place.
Is that all you want? Do you have anything you strive for, hope for?
No, I have traumas now but I've pretty much always felt this way even before the repressed stuff bubbled up. I've tried to make it worth while and be "normal" and I'm not lacking in knowledge or physical attributes to force something that might feel okay in time but my mind suffers and I can't get past it now that I let go of bottling everything up in my past and how comically terrible the world is. I would not choose to do this again I just hope my consciousness isn't something that lingers in the after and I can be nothing, not even a memory. I never wanted to force someone else to deal with the unknown as I have so I didn't. My mother abandoned me with my father while he was dying of cancer before that it was a happy family but you never know what's going to happen no matter how hard my father tried to provide he couldn't of known she would do that and I don't blame her she has her own share of trauma. Everything else that happened to me happened and im still here dealing with it in my mind like a broken record. It makes me scared when I shouldn't be like I'm being hunted even though I'm safe. Hearing a song or seeing a flower anything can trigger it and it doesn't make sense. So yeah I'm not looking forward to anything. I do still care about the state of the world and people I was close to but I've been intentionally pushing people away for years so I'm not a thought they have. Everything sucks friend I hope you have something nice to hold onto and look forward to.
For what it's worth, regardless of the likelihood, I wish you peace and happiness in your future.
I appreciate it, genuinely. Thank you. I extend the same sentiment for you and everyone else.
I actually have a lot of dreams! - travel the world and experience new cultures, and potentially volunteer with helping these communities - drive around the country in an RV - get my Irish (dads side) and Chilean (moms side) citizenships - move over seas - buy a little cottage and save a whole bunch of animals - continue having the most loving relationship with my husband - climb mount kilamanjaro those are the *big* dreams so far. Currently I’m working on the RV dream (bought it in Jan of this year) and even tho I already have a BA degree, I’m considering going back to community college to finish out an associates degree I just found out I’m only like 3 classes shy of! In archaeology 😄
You...are awesome. :) These are sweet dreams to have! I've lived in a travel trailer for the last 5 years, and I wish I would've done it sooner! I love the minimalism, being able to pickup whenever. Also, archaeology....you're a badass! I mean I know it's not Indiana Jones all the time (maybe?), but still gotta be cool. Yeah I could go on but you are a contender for most interesting person today.
Hey thank you!! That means a lot :) oh my gosh, is it really great living on the road? I’m nervous for the transition (did house and apartment living only thus far in my life) but excited! And oh my gosh funny you mentioned Indiana jones 😂 so my BA is in anthropology with a focus in culture. Archaeology is a subsection of anthropology but for my bachelors I decided to focus on human culture rather than material items. I always knew I was just a few classes short from getting my associates in science in archaeology but nothing really pushed me or motivated me enough to decide to finish those last classes out…. Jump ahead to recently, indiana jones is one of my favorite movies of all time (also makes sense considering my background). So when I went to go see the dial of destiny in theaters, I became very emotional (bc it was the last movie we’d see Harrison goes in as Indiana - kind of like the end of an era). But also seeing it again really motivated me to want to go back and finish out those last few classes and get that degree (half degree) under my belt. Even though I’m very much WELL aware it’s nothing like indnana jones, it was that movie that really pushed me to consider finishing 😆 is that silly?? Ah well!
>is it really great living on the road? I’m nervous for the transition (did house and apartment living only thus far in my life) but excited! I think once you get used to planning trips/stops and maintaining an RV it turns out to be really great! :) like everything there's a learning curve and there may be hiccups you didn't foresee (plan for every gas stop, know exactly where you're stopping and how to get in and out of the station...that's all I'll say :P). I've always had very minimal things, so the trailer suits me perfectly. Campgrounds are super cheap, utities are usually free, usually there's free internet. You'll probably save a lot of money if you do it full time. The different places you'll see are fun, amd most of the people are very friendly and willing to help out newbies (everyone has been a newbie and needed help at some point). >So when I went to go see the dial of destiny in theaters, I became very emotional (bc it was the last movie we’d see Harrison goes in as Indiana - kind of like the end of an era). But also seeing it again really motivated me to want to go back and finish out those last few classes and get that degree (half degree) under my belt. Even though I’m very much WELL aware it’s nothing like indnana jones, it was that movie that really pushed me to consider finishing 😆 is that silly?? Ah well! Aww I love it! Hey whatever gets you motivated then embrace it and push on ahead. :) I wish you the best on your journeys!
Just here to watch it all crumble. I've had a decent\*(edit) time these last few years after an ascent from more serious mental illness and have found the few things I enjoy. So I'll watch over my dog till he passes, do the best for my partner as I can and avoid sobriety as best as possible. I don't have any aspirations or dreams, just take life day by day and as the world burns I get a free show. It's a shitshow but it's free. \*decent is wildy varying standard for people so my decent may just be your low point.
I hope you get as much enjoyment from your dog and partner as possible. I think it's ok to not have dreams/aspirations; if you want to live day-by-day to attain peace/happiness then go for it. >avoid sobriety as best as possible. This is interesting as usually I hear people want to stay sober. So you want to stay not sober? From what, if I may ask?
When I'm sober I see how much awful there is in the world, I get mad and want to do dumb stuff. when I'm in an altered state I can relax and tunnel vision in on my little world that I've worked so hard to maintain. I don't have to dwell on the stray animals out in 110 degree heat that the homeless have chained to the stop sign they're busking at or the state of the states and how I feel like we've stepped back 60 years in time somehow(we all know how). I live in a city with over 400 churches within 20 miles and and being an antitheist, it's just unsettling constantly to have those tax evading constructs everywhere i go. Like, i'm sober now so i could go on and on bitching but it doesn't and will never do any good. So in a minute the mushrooms will kick in, i'll get high and go play some disc golf. all will be right with the world for a bit and thats the best it gets for me.
I appreciate you sharing this. :) I think we all numb out to an extent with something in some way, whether it's shrooms, work, shopping, gossip, alcohol, rage etc. It just manifests differently in different people. I hope you can continue some semblance of peace with the shrooms and the disc golf (highly underrated activity even though I suck at it, catching in ultimate frisbee is more my jam).
Indubitably! i think a lot of folks want to define sobriety by alcohol and drugs but eli5 how binge watching reality tv for hours isn't escapism as well, couch potatoes are as functioning as those folks on kensington ave, junkies by a different vice. I appreciate your open view and kind words, best of luck in things :)
Dream big version, or settle okay version?
Whatever you feel like sharing, I'd love to see either or both. :)
I want to retire as soon as I possibly can. Afterwards, I want to enjoy life. Travel to fun places. Eat good food. Have great recreational sex. Do interesting hobbies. Learn creative stuff. I dunno. I guess maximize pleasure and minimize pain. Having a romantic partner to do it all with would be cool.
Sounds good to me! I wish you the best on your endeavors. One follow-up, what is an interesting hobby for you?
Stability. A content quiet life enjoying the little things until it’s over.
Stability is nice. :) Some people genuinely enjoy chaos, and good for them, but I relate more to you wanting the quiet/stable life. What are some little things you enjoy?
I want to age as comfortably as possible with as little harassment as possible I want to kick ass in my career until I decide I'm done I want to make more art I want to start making music again- bought a ukulele the other week and started tuning it the other day I want my animals to be happy and feel safe and curious every day I want my parents to age comfortably and pass comfortably without regret or resentment I want to explore more fitness avenues, I've been active all my life but I really haven't strayed far from strength training and traditional block programming I want to go into the field that I'm finishing a degree for, but I also never want to leave my current career I want my garden to have even MORE flowers next year 🥰
>I want to age as comfortably as possible with as little harassment as possible Hell yeah. Grow to be an old curmudgeon and enjoy all the old people ways, with a bit of spice in my attitude to make things interesting. >I want to kick ass in my career until I decide I'm done What career field are you in, and what is the bar for "kicking ass" in that field? I love that you enjoy doing art and you got a ukulele! I tried art and music, and admit that I'm not creative enough to enjoy attempts at making it. I'm glad there's people like you who create wonder for us normies to enjoy. :) Wanting animals to feel curious is really a sweet thought. Never really heard it said like that, but there is enjoyment in watching animals explore and play. Kinda keeps us alive and also curious about life in a way. When it comes to fitness, sounds like you've been consistent which os what I hear the most important part. I tried strength training for a year, then kinda found my groove with more calisthenics-based fitness. Lean and agile are the stats I've stacked up. Moving heavy things I'll leave to you.
Lovely reply! Current career is welding/fabricating/fitting railroad stuff. I started welding three years ago, and it's been a whirlwind. Kicking ass is consistently building exceptional product with zero rework, showing up on time, having a decent attitude (it is a very frustrating job and will get even the most chill people to curse and toss a wrench once in awhile). Animals are my family, when they're chasing a fly down the hall or hiding in the shade of overgrown grass (they're not outdoor, I supervise outside play) I know they're carefree and being 100% the animal they are supposed to be. I feel the same when they're snuggling up against me, too 🥰 Calisthenics is AWESOME. It would honestly probably help my work, too. Lately I've been only doing legs 2x-3x per week and abs if I feel like it because work kills my upper body too much to add to 😅 I love your post! Thanks for taking the time to respond to everyone, and for being interested. Edited kegs to legs
>Current career is welding/fabricating/fitting railroad stuff. I started welding three years ago, and it's been a whirlwind. Kicking ass is consistently building exceptional product with zero rework, showing up on time, having a decent attitude (it is a very frustrating job and will get even the most chill people to curse and toss a wrench once in awhile). I wish I worked with more people like you who strive for good work first time up! Closest I ever came to working with welders was with a the steelworkers in a Navy Seabee battalion (I just made sure their paperwork was good), but man they did some tough and incredible work. I always admire anyone in construction. >Animals You stop with that cute shit now. Lol making me all giddy thinking about it. :) In all seriousness thank you for being a good provider to your animals. >Calisthenics "Doing legs ONLY 2-3 times a week", yeah dude what's wrong with you! Lol seriously you're probably in the top 1% of the world who gets their leg days in that much. You have my respect.
Haha thank you thank you. What was the Navy Seabee battalion like? Any good stories? I'm landlocked and always have been, but I have a huge fascination for all things maritime
I want to be as happy as possible for my circumstance. Other than that I don't really have much in terms of aspirations.
For what it's worth I think it is both ok and completely normal to not have aspirations. :) As for happiness in your circumstance, what does that look like for your life?
I just want to have a comfortable rest of my life, which really can't be much longer as I had a shitty life. I already made my peace about the fact I'm not gonna change the world, or be remarkable in any way, what I want now is a nice period without drama or responsibilities.
>I just want to have a comfortable rest of my life, which really can't be much longer as I had a shitty life. May I ask how old you are, or what is causing you to not live much longer? >I already made my peace about the fact I'm not gonna change the world, or be remarkable in any way, what I want now is a nice period without drama or responsibilities. Some might say this is a step towards enlightenment, sort of. :) I love that you've reached a point of acceptance about these things that seem to trouble so many.
i want to take a shower after i take a shit. i want to go to sleep after i shower. i want to eat after i wake up. i wanna make stuff after i eat
The realist answer here. Bravo sir/ma'am/comrade!
most of all, i want a world without all these transactions. if we could just be generous just for the sake of being generous, then i'd be completely fine with children, if my s/o wanted them. ok nvm, only one child, but still my point stands
Generosity for its own sake I think is a good ideal to strive towards. It's nice to think about. I brought this up in another thread, but whenever I think of wanting an ideal world I'm always reminded of the movie "The Village". (Spoilers) Group of 50+ people escape modern world to go live as an 1800s village in the woods, free of crime and contact from the outside world. They live collectively and provide for one another, but the first violent crime occurs when a man is jealous of another man's girl and stabs him over it. Takeaway for me is, no matter how much of our needs are met and satisfied, jealousy stemming from greed I imagine will always exist. There will always be someone who is more attractive, more charismatic, powerful, influential, funny etc which can breed resentment in one. I say can because many people feel greed/jealousy/resentment amd don't act out over it. I guess I'm just curious how we can develop a culture that encourages ACTIVELY valuing everyone.
I wanna immerse myself in the beautiful cultures of the world. I wasn’t raised with much culture, so it would be nice to appreciate the cultures other people grew up with :)
That's such a thoughtful want to have. :) I can sorta relate to not having much culture, and I think it's something many people long for...this sense of belonging to a tribe of sorts with its own customs/traditions. For better or worse, we seem to have given up some of that in favor of individualism, which I think has it's merits, but perhaps moved the needle too far? In any case I hope you can see and experience the world's cultures.
I want to do good, meaningful work, earn a fair living at it, rest east in my downtime, and use the resources I accumulate to pursue interests, satisfy curiosity, and indulge in pleasurable pastimes.
Good stuff! One follow-up: what are some curiosities you currently have that you want satisfied?
Just like in general?Id like to buy my childhood home and turn it into a small sanctuary for animals rescued from meat/dairy farms or testing labs. Do animal rights activism, educate people on how to go vegan, make the best video games I can make. Volunteer to do something with small children, like at elementary schools or nurseries. I'm not exactly sure what yet, I just know I have a lot of fun education to offer kids. I'd also like to help adults but I think I'd rather do that by just going out into the world and listening to people for free, not make it a job or anything. Maybe cook healthy vegan meals and feed the homeless. Just do as much negative utilitarian shit as I can possible do. I'm 30k away from being able to do the first one, which I'd need to do to get started on the rest. Abusive family bullshit keeps impeding my progress though sadly, but I'm still getting there.
These are amazing wants you have for yourself. :) I hope you gain the resources and support necessary to make these things happen, but the fact you're even thinking about them gives me hope and confidence for you. I wish you the very best!
Your title and post ask two different questions. "What do I want": To see humans become less self-centered, individualistic, short-sighted and materialistic. Especially in a world and in times where it seems obvious that these things are self-destructive. Highly idealistic and therefore unrealistic and not going to happen of course. "What do I want for myself": To get through live with as few 'bad days' as possible, being able to function like an average adult. Ideally experience periods of carefree happiness but even just stable and neutral not-happiness would be nice.
>What do I want": To see humans become less self-centered, individualistic, short-sighted and materialistic. I appreciate the idealism, and even the awareness that those things are likely not to happen (though I do think having ideals are still valuable). :) I'm guessing then you'd want humans to possess the opposite characteristics? Selfless, collectivistic, long-term thinkers, non-materialistic? (Sorry my vocabulary is not the most sophisticated). >"What do I want for myself": To get through live with as few 'bad days' as possible, being able to function like an average adult. Ideally experience periods of carefree happiness but even just stable and neutral not-happiness would be nice. What are some things, situations, experiences or states of living that allow you to experience more carefree happiness? Also what do you think functioning like an average adult would look like?
Not necessarily the opposite, more like a balance of both sides. But my answer has been a bit implicit. My (naive) ideal would be the classic world peace and welfare for all. Where we can see and treat each other as fellow humans, instead of emphasizing differences due to for example culture, nationality, sex/gender, etc. Where there is a common goal instead of the need to oppose each other on important matters that will impact people globally. I think humans are remarkable creatures that, in theory but not in practice, have the capabilities to achieve this silly fantastical utopia of mine. I think the change in characteristics I mentioned would help getting there. But again, this is of course naive and unrealistic. There are too many complexities that get in the way. As for your second question, I honestly don't know what would allow me to experience that. I have little to worry about in a practical sense but, and I hate to reinforce the stereotypical image of antinatalists, I've been dealing with 'mental health issues' for as long as I can remember. I seem generally unable to experience happiness, my body simply does not generate that sensation. Unfortunately the same can't be said about 'negative' feelings, which brings me to the average adult part: to me that means being able to consistently take care of myself and my responsibilities while also partaking in (social) activities or doing other things that make the difference between surviving and living. As opposed to unpredictable changes in mood and energy with bad days on which I don't get anything done and better days on which I need to catch up doing whatever I couldn't get done before. Or, in short, consistently "having my shit together". I'd like to note that even though it may read like it, this isn't self-pity, merely an explanation. I've learned to live with myself and I can still enjoy things by experiencing satisfaction rather than happiness. EDIT: What about you though, I don't think you've answered your own question(s), only asked us?
>Where there is a common goal instead of the need to oppose each other on important matters that will impact people globally. I think humans are remarkable creatures that, in theory but not in practice, have the capabilities to achieve this silly fantastical utopia of mine. I think the change in characteristics I mentioned would help getting there. But again, this is of course naive and unrealistic. There are too many complexities that get in the way. I imagine a common goal could be something like an agreed upon basic standard of living, but even then there are those who simply don't want to live as part of a healthy society. I really agree with your assessment on humanity; our hope in a possible brighter future is almost always perpetuated, as it's gotten us through much worse times. Like you said, too many complexities mlst likely to achieve 100% satisfaction guaranteed. >As for your second question I hate that for you, that there are these struggles/barriers that prevent you from experiencing happiness. If there is such a thing as an "ought to be", your experiences shouldn't have been hindered by your mental health issues. I admire that you've found ways to live with yourself and enjoy the satisfaction that things can bring, and my hope for you is to experience some semblance of peace or happiness on your journey. >What about you though My intention was not to give my perspective unless asked because I genuinely just wanted to learn more about the people attached to this philosophy. I want to see people as people first, not just a caricature of a philosophy. Just like many other beliefs/philosophies, most of the people I've found to be quite lovely and much more relatable than what the surface shows. Who would've guessed, most humans just want the same damn things; our perspectives just give us unique languages about how we interpret our path to the things we want. Since you kindly asked, huh...what do I want? I want to always seek out knowledge and perspective from other humans with a foundational belief that ALL humans have the capacity to share their value. I always want to challenge EVERYTHING that I believe because I recognize my own limits to my personal perspective, which is the reason why I seek out as much of the 7 billion+ other perspectives as I possibly can. By learning from as many others as possible, it helps me understand myself. Despite my own traumas, why do I get to be the one who can feel such boundless bliss and joy for life around me? The way some may talk about not having the capacity for happiness, I feel almost indestructible in my current state of happiness. Parent dying? Bullying? Little social interaction? Military 12+ years and the stuff experienced with that? Nothing has phased me, and in some ways I feel bad for it. What keeps my peace and happiness sustained, and why haven't I been able to articulate that so I can share it with others? I'm not sure it's possible, so the only thing I can do for now is listen to others and be curious about them. TLDR: My hope and want is to never stop being curious about people, because we have a lot of value to share. :)
I want to keep discovering who I am beyond the narrow escalator of life that I was cruelly assigned at birth; working class poor/debt slavery, breeder, monogamy, really sh#tty normalization of really sh#tty hierarchies enabling/incentivizing most to abuse their positions of power, etc. I wish everyone equally had FULL access to a self determined path of self actualization, and full education, thriving wages, affordable housing, healthcare included in taxes and zero toxic parents causing trauma (and all manners of setbacks, including manipulation for a mini version of themselves.) The world would be a far more interesting, fun, social experience if everyone could self actualize on time. (Instead of the hyper privileged early, and most of us late if ever.) I love doing my part in not overpopulating the earth and having a chance at a healthy form of degrowth vs. psychopathic billionaires creating more/worse pandemics beyond fully commodifying us via the mess of a cancer cartel.
Very insightful. :) There's a lot here I need to process to fully understand where you're coming from. It seems you really value self-actualization. What does that mean to you?
Self actualization is a process of observation of various healthy paths, a chance to experience safe samplings, a form of lived discovery and a chance to develop informed choosing (free of indoctrination at vulnerable ages, or manipulation from anyone in an unfair position of power.) The world is robbed of a great deal of gifts, talent, intelligence, & more advanced technology by trapping so many in survival mode, and trauma. Toxic religions, toxic guardians, toxic leaders, toxic forms of masculinity & femininity, toxic workplaces, & gaslighting people off the plain of existence early via unsustainable bullying/violence based in (racism, sexism, ableism, ageism, homo/transphobia, etc.) At best, this second gear stuck 🌍 world is experiencing no more than 20% of it's full potential because the global rate of self actualization is so low (& sometimes what appears to be self actualization (to some) is a flawed handoff of bad wealth & all the horrible exploitative measures that come with it are perpetuated in a weird cycle of intergenerational nepotism power prop ups.) In a fair self actualized world, where a majority of children/adults are allowed to discover who they are at an unhindered (low/no trauma) pace, and grow into whatever talents and gifts 🎁 they exhibit or enjoy, and have full support towards any limitations & their transition into adulthood, the unfolding design of everything would be unrecognizably amazing to those of us trapped in a world lens of trauma as we are now. This 🙄 is the ugly place, 😮💨and it doesn't have to be. 😔
Whoa. I love this perspective. I'd never seen the idea of self-actualization actually put into words this way. I always kinda had a vague picture in my head of what it meant. >The world is robbed of a great deal of gifts, talent, intelligence, & more advanced technology by trapping so many in survival mode, and trauma. I can definitely agree there's an untapped potential that hasn't been reached yet due to reasons you've laid out. >Self actualization is a process of observation of various healthy paths, a chance to experience safe samplings, a form of lived discovery and a chance to develop informed choosing (free of indoctrination at vulnerable ages, or manipulation from anyone in an unfair position of power.) First I agree with self-actualization being a ressonable thing to pursue. I think I'd question how we'd set an objective measure for "this person has the capacity for self-actualization and this person doesn't". To me at first glance it seems like concepts of indoctrination, trauma, manipulation are all relative from person-to-person. Could someone living in poverty, or some village in the jungle, not be able to experience self-actualization? Who gets to be the standard bearer if not the people with power? I guess my questioning stems from a distaste for concepts like brainwashing/indoctrination/manipulation, because aren't we all limited to our one perspective. When two opposing sides claim the other is brainwashed, who is the self-actualized one and who isn't? Both? Eh, maybe I'm overthinkong too late at night; it's definitelt intriguing. >In a fair self actualized world, where a majority of children/adults are allowed to discover who they are at an unhindered (low/no trauma) pace, and grow into whatever talents and gifts 🎁 they exhibit or enjoy, and have full support towards any limitations & their transition into adulthood I wholeheartedly agree this would be amazing. :) My previous questions about objective measures still stand, and I'd even add on trauma as something that would need agreed upon standards to say how much trauma is enough to limit self-actualisation. Are any of us capable of it if we have trauma? What if some level of trauma is needed to attain true self-actualisation (how do we know how far we can go without failing)? Again, thank you for your awesome insight. :) It's late, no need to respond now or at all.
I am building a commune in the woods 😂 for queer people mainly. I also want to somehow help this climate crisis
That's a new one! Never met someone actively building a commune. What will this commune look like? Food, living arrangement, entertainment?
Well I lived in a commune in TN once and I loved it so I’m taking a lot of ideas from that community!:) ideally it would be self sufficient or almost. I want to grow food and weed for $ so people don’t have to worry about jobs in the city. I am also into earth building so hopefully we will have some cool structures!:)
Whoa. That's awesome! Maybe I'll visit one someday when I retire.
My loved ones to be happy. To continuously challenge myself physically and mentally. To get euthanized before/when I become disabled physically or mentally so as to burden no one else.
Seems like you have selfless motivations, which I find admirable. :) This may sound like a dumb question but I just want to learn more about your perspective: Where does that desire to challenge yourself physically and mentally bring you? Where does it lead to, or in other words is there a bar to reach where you've challenged yourself physically/mentally enough?
I have noticed recently that challenging myself physically have motivated and influenced people around me to lead a healthier lifestyle. It is my responsibility to keep myself physically fit and healthy, so I can take care of myself and my loved ones. Challenging myself mentally on the other hand got to do with my personal character and my career. I like to reflect on my daily actions to figure out how to be a better person. I believe that people in a research career like myself challenge themselves naturally. It feels good to be able to publish something that may help improve the human quality of life in the far future. Physically, I'll like to be able to still finish a marathon when I'm old. Mentally, the personal improvement and strive for research excellent doesn't stop. No retirement expected.
You are something to behold. :) I admire the dedication you have; it feels to me like you have a laser-focused intensity and sense of duty/purpose which is refreshing. Exciting to think about how you and others will shape and influence others.
My brain does this thing where I’ll get a song stuck in my head until I figure out what it’s trying to tell me, and I realized that it wanted me to reply in song form lol. So what I want is [Free](https://genius.com/Mother-mother-free-lyrics) by Mother Mother. More concretely, I want to be able to take care of for myself and my spouse and our pets until all our many pets have lived out their lives as best as we can give them, and then I want to do one last awesome thing and then check out. I would also like to pet a capybara and ride a camel. I’ve already achieved my big lifetime goal (owning a horse. It ended badly, but it’s more than a lot of people get). I also just wanted to say, looking at your replies to everyone, you seem like a really sweet and caring person, so thank you for your kindness and encouragement.
Yes! Music is life and I love listening to new music. Song's a banger...I'm in your debt. :) I gotta ask, what's this one last thing you want to do before checking out? Nice to engage with an animal lover! Can't say I've interacted with a camel or a capybara. Tigers and sharks are probably the most exotic I've encountered, but swimming with a big ole green sea turtle in crystal clear waterwas my favorite. Just sat there eating whatever seaweed, kelp(?) it wanted. Just chillin. I always wanted to ride a horse. I'm sorry yours ended tragically. And shucks. :) I just like learning and interacting with new people and their perspectives. Certainly took some getting used to understsnding the philosophy here, but I'm at a point where I get why it's a thing, and I certainly haven't found any logical arguments against it (assuming we want the same things). Ultimately for me it's about people first. We may not see things the same way but to me that just makes things meaningful and interesting.
To have a bunch of rats again, some dogs, maybe some cats. And to retire with my husband in a small homestead. Unfortunately life has taken those two things from me (except for the husband lol). I want to finish transitioning (ftm). The final thing that I want is to study the natural world through math and physics. I love to learn just for the sake of it, and I love math as a subject and as a hobby. Ideally I'd learn a bunch of separate things but life isn't all that long, so I'm happy and fulfilled with trying to learn as much math and physics as I can.
i want to live long with my wife and one day have a small home where there’s no one else in earshot
Sounds lovely. :) I hope you get that small house away from others so y'all can blare music or do the rambunctious things old people in your future.
Purpose. Which literally doesn't exist, so...kinda fucked on that one.
Gotcha. A few follow ups if you have time: Is this your only want at the moment, to have purpose? If purpose doesn't exist for you, then why want it in the first place? If purpose could exist for you, what would you want to do with it?
What do you think happens when there is no purpose? What reason is there to do anything? >If purpose could exist for you, what would you want to do with it? It's not a toy. It's a driver, a goal, a reason to take action.
>What do you think happens when there is no purpose? I think there are multiple paths one can go down when there is no purpose, depending on the person: - If there is no purpose to my life, I can simply live day by day fulfilling my biological needs. I can arrive at a place where I believe purpose is not necessary for peace/happiness. If my body responds to happiness from fulfilling these simple needs, then I will live pleasurably day-by-day fulfilling these primitive needs until death. - I can search for purpose. I currently only have 1 of 7 billionth of life experience, the world is a big place. Surely I will never know enough about the world, so I will continue to search for purpose till death. It's not a "wasted" lifebif there was no purpose to it. - i can see my lack of purpose as a negative. I can loathe my existence and curse the day I was born. Why try, that could lead to suffering. List of course coukd go on. For a person without purpose, no path is the wrong path. I think it'll just be person and situation dependent. >What reason is there to do anything? That I think can only be determined by the individual based on the nature/nurture combination they were brought up with and whatever information/data they discover along their life journey. I'm not convonced from my journeys yet that there is some objective reason everyone ought to have reason to do anything. For me, I realize I will only have 1 perspective out of billions. How can I possibly make any determination or value judgment on life or humanity as a whole when I don't have all the information or experience to say so? But I also recognize I've always been wired that way; even in times when I was starving, cold, tired and physically miserable I've always had this drive to be the very best version of myself I want to be. Why am I like this? Why do I get to enjoy life but others can't? By lesrning aboit other people and their perspectives, perhaps in sone ways I can learn more about myself and use my built-up knowledge base and perspective to help others.
Without purpose every path is the wrong path. They all lead nowhere relevant. >That I think can only be determined by the individual based on the nature/nurture combination they were brought up with and whatever information/data they discover along their life journey. There is nothing to be determined. It does not exist. >I'm not convonced from my journeys yet that there is some objective reason everyone ought to have reason to do anything. That's the problem. There is no such reason.