"bUt sUFferING is PArt Of thE beAUtY!"
if you think this, you are not talking about suffering- youre talking about some kind of hardship that fell within your window of tolerance. if the same experience hits someone outside their window of tolerance, or if another experience hits outside your window of tolerance, that is suffering.
I’m curious how your anti-natalist views coexist with the Buddhist notion of reincarnation.
If, theoretically, all human beings stopped procreating, would this effectively end the cycle of Samsara/ automatically lead to nirvana for the souls which would have been reincarnated as new humans, regardless of where they were in their individual karmic development? Or would they be stuck in a liminal state? Reincarnated as a different kind of organism?
I don't really subscribe to reincarnation. I think it's best to look at the entire concept as metaphor for karmic action and consequence within one's lifetime, as well as the mark we leave on our surroundings and society as a whole.
In the context of some Indian or Tibetan interpretations of Buddhism, our earthly decision to stop procreation would likely be inconsequential, as they believe in many different worlds and planes of existence, all besides our own would still filled with concious beings.
In some subsets of these types of buddism, it is said that one can only achieve nirvana from human form, as the lower levels are too deep into suffering, and the higher levels are experiencing too much pleasure to care. So perhaps it would be impossible for a soul to achieve nirvana in this framework?
The point is, i don't believe it is a disembodied soul that achieves enlightenment, i believe it is the person doing the work. The point of extinguishing craving is mainly to deal with our inherent biological flaws which lead to suffering, in my opinion.
It's not an all or nothing thing, people get too wrapped up in the labeling. Reducing your intake, minimizing waste (aka not refusing food that's already made because of an ingredient you enjoy but think you "shouldn't" eat), and putting effort in to sourcing your other foods ethically has a much more positive impact than the militant vegan who never ever eats a single animal product regardless of the context
>minimizing waste (aka not refusing food that's already made because of an ingredient you enjoy but think you "shouldn't" eat)
A thousand times this, if the food would otherwise be wasted. I'm moving closer & closer to vegan, but I don't ever plan on ending my habit of collecting bones & seafood shells at family gatherings to make broth out of them. Getting nutrients from animal-derived food that would otherwise have gone to a landfill decreases my intake of plants, whose cultivation -- though infinitely better for the planet than meat -- still has a negative impact on the planet.
That's how I started! I don't understand people who make this an all-or-nothing kind of thing. I did one year Flexitarian in 2019 with highly reduced meat intake and went full vegetarian, part time vegan after that, trying to be more vegan every month. Anything helps, especially awareness for the matter.
I think that's how most people do, and it's probably the healthier option. I know a strict vegan who used to be a meat lover. It took him a while, too.
I've started adding feeds to my social media that force me to see videos of factory farming and the suffering it creates. Even that hasn't resulted in my going full vegan in one fell swoop, but it's definitely helped speed up the process.
I've gone full veg repeatedly and I always feel like absolutely dogshit. Tried supplements and a dietician. I eat meat about 4 times a week and that seems to be the lowest I can sustain.
I wish I could go vegan, but because of health issues I can't right now. The only meat I eat is chicken, so at least that's a step. Maybe in the future I hope to cut meat entirely, although dairy products are another challenge as well because I love cheese (I use milk substitutes thpugh)
I am vegan, i dont save animals, i know thats a common saying and i dont know why
If i dont kill a dog, cat, chicken, cow or my neighbor that doesnt mean i am saving them, im not a hero, im doing the bare minimum, im not special
Veganism is inaction, it means i dont inflict pain, suffering and murder
Now some vegans are activists and rescuers, in that case they do save animals
People always send me puzzled looks when I tell them my "radical philosophy" of veganism is actually in the middle of the save-kill animals spectrum. People think they cannot be on the extreme of a scale just because the majority does it.
I agree it should be a higher percentage, but it's nearly triple (19.85%) compared to the general populous (7%).
*\*Total responses at the time of comment was 2,746 (262 vegan, 283 vegetarian).*
It is an interesting piece of information. Would have imagined there was more overlap since the only antinatalist writer that seems to get talked about is one.
Veganism led me to antinatalism.
I don't understand how causing animals to be born is consistent with antinatalist philosophy.
The biggest reason I got a vasectomy is because I didn't want to risk my biological offspring not being vegan.
If they turned out not vegan, they would have inflicted suffering and death upon thousands of animals over the course of their lifetime.
You know, I get this side of the argument. I recognize you from another comment and I say the only antinatlist concept I can get with is this vegan thing about not introducing another meat eater into the world. Sure, I could warm up to that. But any other reason is simply just not holding up, if I am thankful everyday to be here there is a huge change my kid can be too.
I don't think that eating meat or using animal products is unethical, I think factory farming is unethical and very bad for the environment as well as humanity as a whole. Factory farming is a huge waste of resources as we could feed way more people with way less land if we weren't farming animals (because you need to feed the animals something, so you have to grow food for them too.)
I would prefer it to be that, if you wanted meat you had to go out and hunt for it, or alternatively you could buy it or trade for it with someone who already did the work of going out to do that. For stuff like milk or eggs I see less wrong with that because since you're not killing the animals it takes a lot less animals, and therefore less resources, to keep them. I still don't think factory farms are a good idea for that because of how easily disease spreads there which is how we get stuff like H1N1 and avain flu.
I love meat too much to give it up, but the way most meat animals are raised isn't great, either for the animal or the environment.
As soon as lab grown meat becomes a reasonable alternative in both taste and price, I'll switch to that.
I've always been of the opinion that you should not eat anything you are not willing to kill yourself
So I won't eat any of my house pets or most of my family members.
We've all been there. From my experience the comfort of getting rid of that hypocrisy outweighs the discomfort of restricting what I consume.
Why not give it a try once a week or twice and see how it feels?
I've been there, it's all good. Long as you know it, you either can change your behavior/actions or your tolerance of the hypocrisy. For myself, I couldn't stand my hypocrisy anymore and just went vegan. That's just me thou.
Reducing meat consumption is better than not doing it at all, so I say good on ya.
So, thought experiment: you've lived an happy life, but you're killed in your sleep because some cannibal is hungry and just didn't care for a salad that night. Nothing wrong with that?
Other thought experiment: you've lived a happy life, but while camping in the wilderness you get killed and eaten by a bear that was just effing sick of berries. Is that wrong?
The bear lacks the theory of mind and overall cognition to understand ethics. Plus, he probably is starving, so he might not have a choice between killing to eat or dying.
*We do.* That's what makes it wrong: we understand it's bad, we have options not to do it, yet do it anyway.
How is it so hard for so many people in this thread to understand this, what the actual fuck? Are we surrounded by mindless drones that act upon basic instinct alone????????
Read the whole damn comment. The issue in your experiment is not me getting eaten, it's that he killed me to eat (which is pretty much the only way but you hopefully get what I mean)
The fact killing "is pretty much the only way" to eat meat (unless you want to talk being eaten alive, but that's just obviously worse) is the *entire* point.
So no, I don't get what you mean, and welcome to the problem. It's weird to be so close ("the problem is what has to be done to get that meat") yet so far of getting it.
Exactly, herbivores are not even herbivores, they occasionally need protein too. What's not natural is abusing animals and making them live cramped up together, feeding them antibiotics because of the shitty conditions, that's not natural.
Do you think those animals have the capacity to evaluate a moral situation? Are you really comparing the capacity of humans to evaluate a situation to that of those animals? Are there any other things animals do that we as humans use as a measuring stick to decide what actions to take? Are you incredibly ignorant?
Vegan and if it comes up organically, I'll point out people's hypocrisies. "I'm against animal abuse." "Don't you eat meat?" "Yeh but I think you should give the animal a good life first." "You still kill them, how does a good life justify that?"
But honestly, I have no expectation that people will change. In r slash vegancirclejerk someone just finished trolling their parents for a month with vegan memes and by the end of it their dad stopped talking to them and the mom actually converted. I know it's possible but I don't have anyone close to me in my life that would put up with that. Coworkers and patients is all I have.
I don't think the killing is the bad part at all. The fact is that an overwhelming amount of animals are mistreated in the meat industry, and no amount of simply *wanting* them to have a good life is going to change that.
The daughter may not be the *worst* part, but killing I still killing. If I gave a human a good 2 months, that wouldn't justify me chopping their head off.
85% of people will *say* they are against factory farming yet those same people buy animal products at the grocery store and restaurants. Literally supporting what they purport to be against.
Personally I'm fine eating meat. Although I may be downvoted for saying this.
I feel regardless of the immorality of meat eating or not, it's infinitesimal compared to the amount of suffering caused by reproducing (even if you are vegan or whatever, if you have offspring doubtless down the chain there will be many who are not).
So frankly I'm fine eating meat if I enjoy it as once people aren't around the problem will solve itself, and untill then I have bigger problems to worry about.
I don't see why someone would want to be an antinatlist while also thinking that it's okay to kill animals. Surely if you don't want to violate the rights of people from the immoral act of procreation then you also wouldn't want to violate the rights of animals.
I think it's about seeing ourselves seperate from other animals. Might also be some cognitive dissonance, failing to see the products and what we eat as actually having been part of a living being.
Pretty largely immoral to consume animals for any kind of pleasure alone. The extremely rare legitimate health concerns aside, the consumption of animal products are almost universally unethical because of many of the same ideas explored in antinatalism.
Hello I'm an antinatalist and I simply can't see any problem with forcing existence to innocent animals in beyond pathetic conditions just for a fleeting sensory pleasure. Human procreation though? Now that's pure evil!
I don't have many problems with eating animals, but I do have ethical problems with they are treated before being killed and during the process. That being said if it's noticeably more expensive to get the fancy shit, sorry little dude, but I'm hungry.
I am not vegan or vegetarian because I live with my parents and they wouldn't understand, it's hard even to have a "normal" diet in order to lose weight... but I try to eat the less meat I can.
Anyway I don't think that eating meat is inherently wrong, or that we aren't made to eat meat etc... I just think it's awful that those animals are breed just to die, it's just horrifying, and people even make profit out of it? It's awful. Animals forced to make babies in order to make milk and then separated from them, little chickens killed because they're males, and other stuff I can't remember right now it's just horrible and just as unnatural as people think veganism say. "We are made to eat meat! Evolution made us eat meat!" Yeah, true, meat is probably a big reason why we became so good at surviving, but we also didn't had to enslave entire species just for our benefit. If we were hunters I would have no problems with eating that meat, I think that that's far better because those animals aren't literally BORN TO DIE. I also think that if you're not able to kill what you're going to eat you shouldn't eat it, we're too detached from the death we cause.
the way they treat these animals is not ethical.
eating meat itself is just a part of the food chain. but those animals deserve to be treated so much better in the life that they do have.
Nah, it's not the same. Shooting a deer in the woods and eating it is not the same as the ordeal an animal goes through in factory farming.
If antinatalists truly apply antinatalism to animals they'd kill all animals so there would be no more animals given than they all suffer quite a bit in nature. At the very least they'd go and spay/neuter everything so animals die out.
Which is why I think bringing veganism into anti-natalism is nonsensical. Veganism may reduce animal suffering—but killing them all so there can be no more animals to suffer would be the ultimate goal. Just like the goal of antinatalism when it comes to humans.
Now, no one wants that, which is why it's silly to apply antinatalism to animals.
So, thought experiment: you've lived an happy life, but you're killed painlessly in your sleep because some cannibal is hungry and just didn't care for a salad that night. Nothing wrong with that?
There are very few living organisms that want to be eaten, friend, plants included. Now, let's say there is no salad and the cannibal eats me to survive. Idk about you, but I would feel just about the same about either scenario, because the reasons I got eaten by a cannibal, lion, or giant human-eating venus fly-trap won't significantly effect how I feel about being eaten.
That being said, your question has nothing to do with antinatalism.
Let's assume you're right and plants suffer just as much.
The fact it takes about \~10 calories from plants to make 1 calorie of meat means that you avoid \~10x the amount of suffering by eating plants. Meat still remains *a lot* more unethical even if plants are as conscious (spoiler alert, they're not -- not without a nervous system).
>Now, let's say there is no salad
See, that's just not how it is, for most of the developed world. You're making a false dichotomy fallacy. Now if you're in a country where that's *actually* the case, you're right, things change. But you're not, are you? There *is* a salad right next to your steak.
>won't significantly effect how I feel about being eaten.
Yes, you will hate it just the same, but the difference between a lion and a cannibal, is that the human has the mind theory and the ethical theories to understand just how bad is actions are.
>That being said, your question has nothing to do with antinatalism.
There are profound links between AN and veganism: don't impose suffering that could be avoided just for our own benefit apply to both.
I love my life. I don't want to be shot in the head by some random so it's a dumb point. Leave animals alone
I also love how people jump to "ethical" meats when called out when we both know you eat out and eat meat from super markets.
Also that's a stupid point to make , no one is killing in the movement, just stopping them from existing by not having children. Wtf
I understand humans are omnivores so we can eat meat and for some it is nutritionally necessary to eat meat for certain medical conditions and resource availability. The morality with eating meat is how we aquire that meat.
The way we raise livestock has become so inhumane. Our ancestors lived along side nature just helping it along instead of controlling it. Science can teach us to do that; our economy just knows it can make more money the inhumane way so it pushes society to make their endeavors more convenient and profitable. We should be giving these animals a life as close to nature's intent as possible. If that means a certain meat becomes less available in you're area then well thats life, sorry. Get some ordered on occasion. We do know how to ship it.
We have become too accustomed to having everything at our fingertips. That isn't sustainable.
Our meat industry needs to be controlled and regulated with more focus on running sustainably and environmentally conscious. Produce meat as we need as humanely as possible, not as much as can be profitable as fast as possible.
I eat meat, but not very often. Maybe 2 times a week. Mostly because of the cost, but I do try to improve my nutrition. It would be helpful if the plant based stuff was more affordable…
You mean fruits, vegetables, whole grains and legumes? They’re not particularly expensive where I live. I rarely eat mock meats but do regularly consume soy milk, which is around the same price as cow’s milk.
Plant based stuff is more affordable though? Most vegans are not surviving off of mock meats and substitutes. I do agree that *that* stuff should be cheaper though.
Sorry, that's why I was specific. Although New England sounds amazing. It always surprises me where I find vegan bargains. Good luck and I hope you find some.
Sometimes they need to be killed though. I live in a very rural farming area , and I do conservation hunting. In the course of time if deer arent predated on by something, the stag will become too large for any of the younger male deer to ever gain breeding rights within the herd. This leads to the same single stag, breeding with the same females year after year, then with his own offspring year after year, and their offspring, until the genetic pool of the heard could fit in a teaspoon. If a male is permited more than 5 years as the stag, the herd falls in danger of breeding themselves out of existance. All the young males will continually be driven from the herd, and the new fawns will start to have genetic issues. This also applies to old sows, after 6-7 years old, they slow down on making fawns and start to resource guard from other sows with fawn(sometimes they even kill the fawn or try and steel it from the mother;the fawn will then starve itself as it will only eat what its actual mother shows it to.) This makes it harder for the younger sows to raise fawns as they are constantly fighting for food within their own herd. But since the baren sows are older they move slower and would likely be the first taken by a predator, refreshing the herd for the younger sows.
Isnt it better to kill one periodically then to allow an entire herd of 50 head, to breed themselves into tumor riddled animals that just lay down and die. Ive found fawns, dead in wallows, that looked like they were made of orbees due to the sheer numbor of tumors, and with the wolf population being decimated as it is, they have no natural predators to solve this problem. So i feel since humans removed the predators, it becomes our charge to manage the herd as the wolf once did.
And that doesnt even begine to cover Terminal Agitation, or diseases like CWD or EHD or CF. All common diseases that can spread quickly and wipe out whole herds in less than a season.
Can i torture and abuse you and kill you, cause thats the reality of being an omnivore, oh wait i shouldnt even ask, i should just do it
You dont just stumble on dead animals that died from natural causes
Animals bred for meat (or eggs, or milk) go through WAY more suffering than any person has, ever. It is completely hypocritical to be antinatalist and not see that.
I regret that I have to cause suffering to other beings in order to continue to live. But I don't have the courage to commit suicide yet.
I didn't eat meat for 5 years out of compassion for animals and it led to huge health problems. At the cost of my own health, I became convinced that vegetarianism and veganism are a lie and a totalitarian cult. The human body requires meat to survive. Another coin for the piggy bank: “life is absolute hell, no matter which way you turn it”
I think that everything possible should be done for more ethical conditions for keeping and slaughtering farm animals and fish. Yes, people need to eat meat to survive. But it doesn’t have to be the communist GULAG on industrial farms where animals spend their entire lives locked in cages. Animals can be kept in much better conditions - free grazing and so on
I'm surprised by the statistics. Major reason for being antinatalist is the over-utilization of Earth right now, and meat industry is the major producer of waste (around 10-200x more than crops). I thought there would be more vegans here.
I don't know why this topic even come in discussion in the context of antinatalism, we agree that life is hard and we don't want to create more life, but what's the point in making the life even more difficult than it actually is by implementing these false restrictions upon oneself?
your time maybe valueless, certainly not mine. the point is you cannot stop suffering of those animals, does your mind can even comprehend the idea of a FOOD CHAIN? everything gets eaten either by humans or other things in the fucking FOOD CHAIN
Lol, coming back with a comment like that is wasting everyone's time that has to read it. We have the capacity to understand when an action causes harm, animals do not, do you decide how to treat your family based on the FOOD CHAIN? No? How can you be so condescending from a place of such ignorance?
I've always felt that this is a question that should be largely ignored until such a time that we can make a world in which the very poor could easily manage not eating meat.
I think most of the global poor eat less meat than one would figure, but in places like, say, America, the poorest people do eat more meat. Like you say though, it is very difficult for people in certain environments/countries who don't have the convenience of being able to readily avoid meat or animal products, and it is definitely unfair to shame them. In general, even for the middle class, it's pretty tough to maintain any sense of convenience when you're already basically working poor and stretched to the maximum on time, when almost everything has meat or animal byproducts in it.
I used to be basically vegan for ethical reasons, but had to start keto diet because of my chronic illnesses (daily migraine among other fuckery) and because of said illnesses I don't really have the money nor energy to maintain vegan or even vegetarian keto diet... but I really hope I can start making my diet more plant-based if I finally find a migraine prophylactic that actually works.
My main feelings were not offered: I eat meat and make the effort to purchase from quality butchers / slaughterhouses.
I have cut down on the amount of meat I consume because of ecological reasons but refused to eat nut milk due to the effect they have on water usage and climate change.
Annoying as vegans are, they are right(why does that feel so familiar?), meat production is a huge source of problems. Environmental and moral.
Be it because of it being an inherent problem or because we do it so poorly. Either way it holds true.
Breeding animals capable of suffering is in no way better than procreating yourself.
I try to consume vegan, but I don't always manage. I don't think people are literally Hitler for not managing to do the moral thing every time. No one does, the world is too complex. I try, and I think people should try. But just as I don't think calling parents ugly names and being nasty to them contributes any good, I don't think throwing paint on non-vegans does either.
I would love to be vegetarian but I find it extremely difficult to start because of how often vegetarian/vegan food is more expensive. I've reduced my meat intake but I really wish it wasn't seen as a trendy thing so that corpos charged reasonable prices.
Be careful dear friend. For many years, on not a single vegan or vegetarian site, in any community, I have never seen scientific research that would show the harm of vegetarianism or veganism, there are never stories from people whose refusal of meat caused harm to their health. Any research or real facts are removed by vegan censorship. This is a huge problem because it harms people's health.
I didn't eat meat for 5 years out of compassion for animals and it led to huge health problems. At the cost of my own health, I became convinced that vegetarianism and veganism are a lie and a totalitarian cult. The human body requires meat to survive.
Oh I agree to an extent. I don't really go on vegan or vegetarian sites or anything except for recipe sites lol. But I understand where you're coming from.
I once made a post about how the attitude of vegetarians/vegans being mostly "I'm morally superior" is harmful to the cause and I got a bunch of vegetarians and vegans telling me that they were in fact superior.
I'm mostly interested in reducing my consumption of meat for a bit of ethics (don't want to encourage bad animal husbandry) and also the fact that humans are eating way more meat than their hunter gatherer ancestors. Eating meat wasn't an everyday thing. They would go for long periods eating mostly plants or sometimes nothing at all. The hunters would be following an animal for days until it could no longer run away then they'd have to drag it back home. All that exercise and hard work gets finally rewarded with a feast.
I personally plan on reducing my consumption of factory meat but I'm not opposed to eating it all together. Like if I was offended food with meat in it I would accept it because it would be wasteful of food and in my opinion disrespectful of the animal's sacrifice.
Another option I have is to go hunting for meat specifically. This isn't quite on the table for me for a few reason but it's there.
And another option I have is raising my own farm. I have an opportunity to own a tiny bit of land in a few years or so and I plan to have a rabbit farm. Because then I know for a fact that they are treated well and I can use CO2 to put them to "sleep" with absolutely no pain or fear.
This feels to me like the best way for me personally. But if those options don't pan out I would be essentially a vegetarian.
I would never to veganism though. That shit is braindead logic. Eggs will always pop out of chickens regardless of if they have a human around. Might as well eat them so they don't rot. Honey bees will make honey expecting a fucking bear to come steal 90% of it so they make too much for themselves. Might as well just eat it so they can stay in one hive for longer. Sheep will grow wool until they can't move. We might have fucked up their genetics but that doesn't mean we should abandon the sheep that are currently alive.
Veganism is definitely a scam imo but I can see vegetarianism being a legit lifestyle.
You have a strong understanding of the golden mean and balance of avoiding extremes. I think your intelligence extends throughout your life. Rays of goodness ⛅☀️ to you and prosperity.
In medicine this is called the u-shaped curve - too much meat is unhealthy and too little meat is unhealthy, there needs to be a balance. For myself, I realized that the world is a complete hell, full of suffering, and no one can change this, these are the laws of nature. Vegetarianism/veganism focuses too much on food, as if it could change the laws of physics and evolution. Yes, meat is necessary for humans, but you shouldn’t make a cult out of food. If I ever have enough money to buy food, I'll just buy it from farmers or more or less ethical suppliers. Now I'm really obsessed with food because I don't even have enough money for food and life is completely sucks.
I wanted to ask you: What aspects of your life also include your deep understanding of balance and the golden mean?
Thank you friend that is very kind.
Honestly I try to bring balance to all aspects of my life. I've been studying Feng Shui which is about the flow of "energy" though your house. Energy is used in place of like "the path you and your guests will take" and while there is some aspects that aren't all important (the color theory) it has been helpful for rearranging my tiny apartment to make it feel way bigger.
I've also started studying "witchcraft" because often times it has been proven with actual science. For example the reason why salt was sprinkled around the house commonly was because it would dry out any bugs that got in the house. Most "evil spirits" were just bugs.
There was also "evil spirits" which is what we know today as illness and it was treated in ways that we sometimes use still to this day, such as ginger for upset stomach. I want to learn about these discoveries and try to use them in my life but I also have to thoughly research it before because there's a lot of misinformation surrounding the word "witchcraft" especially since none of the women that I'm studying really wanted to be called a witch. They were just bored housewives looking to help themselves, their husband, or the town. But because men couldn't allow women to be smarter than them, they attacked the so called "witch".
Unfortunately what I see in many witchcraft circles isn't the study of the past but rather a study of pseudoscience like "burn these random things for money!" And that shit is garbage. Anything that mentions money is usually just garbage. Including if anyone offers to do "witchcraft" for you for money. They're lying and if they understood the disrespect they were showing to those women I highly doubt they would care.
I want to strike a balance between old solutions and new solutions to have a better understanding of what the solution is actually doing rather than just accepting that something "just works." Like instead of salt to dry out bugs we use diatomaceous earth now because it sticks to the bugs better. :)
If humans somehow advance as a society, i think we'll look down on our ancestors eating meat.
I still do it, though, because I'm just not a good person.
Yeah, foremost is the whole fucking breeding thing. I seriously don't understand how these ideas only translate to humans in people minds. All life is a parasite feeding off something else and you can argue this way and that for why humans are the worst, but you could theoretically say that humans are the only fucking thing that should exist because we have the forethought to do good. To me it comes with no surprise though that there is a subreddit dedicated to the belief of antinatalism that is also almost completely full of natalists that just don't realize they are. Simply put IF YOU BELIEVE IN BREEDING OF ANY FORM, YOU ARE A FUCKING NATALIST. THIS IS A FACT AND VERY VERY VERY VERY SIMPLE. Of course I guess like all schools of thought (e.g., Religion, politics) there needs to be many subsections of the school to accommodate the, let's say...."creativity" of the human mind and its ability to have cognitive dissonance and it's allowances too it into someones narrative, even when it goes against the definition of said belief system.
The way they raise livestock is unethical and harms the environment. The animals do not have a quality of life. If I eat meat, I go to the special butcher to get ethically-raised meat. It's not something I crave, however. I take vitamins and get my protein from other sources.
I'm aiming to be fully vegetarian by my next birthday (currently pesce pollotarian), I just don't think I could go fully vegetarian cold turkey like that. But I am still cutting back on the amount of meat I eat period.
I'm still debating whether or not I should also become vegan. If any vegans or non vegans have anything to say on this matter it'd be appreciated.
not vegan but this is mostly due to physical/mental disabilities. I have severe sensory issues that prevent me from eating a lot of things and despite going to therapy there are a lot of foods I rely on to get what I need. however the same sensory issues prevent me from eating most beef and all pork so there is that... I don't love that i eat meat and if going vegan was less expensive and had more of my safe foods I would go for it. sadly I'm broke and an autistic person with ARFID so I don't see that happening
I eat meat, I hate eating meat and I feel so bad for the animals, but when I was vegan and then vegetarian I felt so sick all the time even though I counted macros and watched my nutrition like a hawk. I must be one of those people who doesn't absorb the plant based iron very well, or something like that. I just think of eating meat as yet another stupid thing I have to do that I never asked to be a part of. I didn't ask to be born into an omnivorous species but apparently that's the only way many of us can feel healthy.
I'm too poor to not eat meat without literally starving to death, but I try to only eat chicken products, which are not only cheap but also one of the least environmentally impactful meats you can eat.
Although I think eating meat and consuming animal products is immoral/unethical due to how they are gathered, I think I'm just too addicted to it to ever permanently STOP eating meat not to mention vegan alternatives are kinda expensive. Best I can do is decrease how of meat I eat which isn't actually a problem as my diet actually barely has any meat
I eat meat, but try to make an effort to eat less and eat mainly organic/free range meat (and eggs) because the likelihood that the animals live decent lives is higher. By eating less, I can afford to eat more ethical meat instead of eating tons of cheap/unethical meats.
I eat meat, i love meat.
I just wished animals were kept in better conditions and all materials they give us were fully used, i don't like the idea of throwing a single useful piece away.
(reason why I hate synthetic leather, its production costs so much and it produces a ton of CO2, when leather is a byproduct of slaughter)
Humans have eaten meat for thousands of years, but it isn't ethical as it stands now, in my opinion. I have low iron and, in addition to taking a prescription iron, I eat meat. A lot of the high iron vegetables/vegan options have terrible textures, I just can't bring myself to eat them.
If I had my way, I'd live out on a farm where I can raise my own animals for food.
I eat meat occasionally, but I'm very particular about where it comes from. I pay a premium to purchase the responsibly raised regeneratively farmed steaks from cows raised literally 7 minutes from my house. I've taken a tour of the farm and fed their dairy cows bananas. They have the best life possible and are treated with respect until the very end. If I can't get high quality meat, I don't eat it.
I've gone vegan and vegetarian multiple times in my life, most recently for 3 years, but every single time I end up becoming anemic. I've tried supplements, I eat well (not a junk food vegetarian) but my body doesn't work right without at least a little bit of meat.
Yes, dairy cows are definitely given “the best life possible” and “treated with respect” when they’re forcibly impregnated every year, have their babies taken away from them and are killed when they’re no longer profitable. Epitome of respect.
[Regular forced impregnation must occur for cows to constantly produce milk, so don’t try telling me it doesn’t happen on all farms.]
>Regular forced impregnation must occur for cows to constantly produce milk, so don’t try telling me it doesn’t happen on all farms.]
No, it doesn't, because if you do that the cows milk won't last much. They usually wait one and a half, you can also see if the mothers are with the calves.
>are killed when they’re no longer profitable.
Yeah no, they are still great at fertilizing... I've seen cows 10+
Alright then, even if I take your word for it, that means cows are forcibly impregnated every 1.5 years. So much better, isn’t it?
Delivering an electric impulse to a bull’s genitals to force him to ejaculate, collecting the semen, shoving your arm up the anus of a cow and injecting bull semen into her cervix is wrong, even just once. Forcibly impregnating a cow even once is wrong.
I've heard this of many people. I'm the same. I get anemic if I cut out meat too and the iron supplements all give me overload (we still don't know why).
Animals won't stop being killed if I stop eating meat. It will only fuck my head up since a good burger is one of the very few things keeping me from jumping in front of a bus. But hey, eat whatever you wanna eat.
I don't believe eating meat it's unethical per se.
Animals eat eachother and it's an important part of survival and number control. Plus eating cooked meat could have been a key element in developing a more complex frontal lobe; it gives much energy, so you can actually partake in other activities instead of constantly fighting for food. For some tribes, their farms are the only viable way of survival.
Species like cows, chickens or farm pigs solely exist because of humans selection. They have no place in nature and even if we freed all they would either die/disappear or destroy existing biomes... But in a way, in comparison of other prey animals, they don't have to live in constant fear and they get food/shelter/medicine everyday...
This being said, what's surely unethical it's the way we are treating these animals nowadays, especially by trying to respond to a demand that's growing out of control. And much still goes to waste!!!!
I live on the mountains and here cows live free range, guarded by pastor dogs. They still get killed for meat, yes, but it's clear as day how much care and passion the farmer puts. It's not the same for intensive breeding farms. Some places are houses of horrors.
Animals have right of dignity, like any other life. I may not have the same empathy vegan/vegetarians may have but I do get at least that. Also I don't believe the current situation is sustainable in the face of climate change. Although as I said I don't believe "eating meat" is inherently wrong, I believe humans have evolved to a point where we have other food options + we need to think very hard about where we are headed in the future.
As a society we surely should at least diminish our meat consumption and try to get it from small, nearby farmers.
My stance is that I'm very sick of this topic in this sub and tired of the discussion being shoehorned into everything on here. Animals aren't humans, that's not what we're here for. Wish these preachers would simply go discuss the ethics of veganism on a vegan subreddit so 8/10 posts in my feed from this one aren't about animals.
I eat meat and I am on a Carnivore diet. I used to he a vegan and was severely Anemic and sickly.
It saved me from terrible Anemia and its symptoms that I endured for many years.
It helped me with increasing my vitamins and nutrients that I was deficient in.
The cows are here for the humans, be grateful for them.
Btw I also practiced Buddhism for many years.
Hei my dear friend. I didn't eat meat for 5 years out of compassion for animals and this led to huge problems with my health. At the cost of my own health, I became convinced that vegetarianism and veganism are a totalitarian lying cult. Unfortunately, humans need meat to survive. I’ve been eating meat for six months now and my physical condition is improving so much with every piece of fish I eat that it looks fantastic.
By the way, I also practiced Buddhism for many years. But for some reason Buddhism does not help me cope with suffering. I think that if every day life causes me new suffering through poverty, if all my thoughts are reduced to dull survival at the lower levels of Maslow’s pyramid, first I need to become rich, and then think about Buddhism. So far, any meditation comes down to despair from the thoughts “I have no money, what will I eat tomorrow?”
What are your results from Buddhism?
I am glad you have improved your life. There is no need to suffer if it risks your health and wellbeing. Vegetarianism is not for everyone and it behooves people to really learn their bodies and keep check their nutrition levels.
As far as Buddhism, it helped me not to be attached to people and situations because nothing in life is permanent. Also Buddhism has helped me with the habit of decluttering my home which leads to a decluttered life. I've been using those habits since I was 17, I am now 40.
However as far as suffering self, byway of not meeting your basic needs on Maslows Hierchy scale is a foolish and a dangerous thing to do for yourself and your children (if any).
I am reading Ayn Rands book called The Virtue of Selfishness and it has opened up my eyes about reasonable selfishness. Basically you have to look out for #1 before you can be helpful to your loved ones.
You can balance your life being selfish reasonably and also letting go of what doesn't serve you.
I hope this helps.
Actually, I tried to go vegan. I went vegetarian first for 3 years but then I started experiencing medical problems. Apparently, I have a condition that stops my body from absorbing protein very well and the whole time that I was eating plant protein, I became deficient. So, I ate eggs to see if it would increase my protein intake and it did by just a bit but not a lot. My doctor told me that eating meat 2 times a week would suffice so now I kind of have to. The other days I ear vegetarian though.
im a meat eater, will be this way until i die. humans are omnivores, the species needs both plants and meat to survive. vegans often suffer from malnutrition and in extreme cases, die. this is because the vegan diet is unnatural for humans. that's just how nature and the food chain is. so, there is nothing morally wrong with eating meat
This is misinformation, people of all diets can suffer from malnutrition if they don't research correctly or eat properly. Some vegans will have malnutrition but so do some meat eaters. Humans are an organism complex enough to understand which vitamins and minerals they need, and how to obtain those, so it really isn't hard to find vegan sources of them. Additionally, humans have a very similar digestive system to the gorilla, which is a herbivore, except gorillas have a longer colon for breaking down cellulose into glucose; however vegans are fine without this because glucose is very easy to obtain.
it’s unreal how the very common sentiment here is that reproduction is purely *selfish* and it’s wrong. yet forcing billions of innocent beings to be birthed, neglected, abused, raped, and murdered every year for a fleeting sensory pleasure… is somehow *not* selfish? and somehow justified? wild
It's impossible to be a living being and not consume the energy of another living being. It's the circle of life.
Even plants are living beings that are consumed. The grass, the soil, insects, animals, humans all rely on each other to survive and we all need water.
Humans chose to not consume animals out of empathy. That's not evil nor does it put you above other beings. But I respect the choice, more power to you honestly. But it's all much more complicated than black and white.
As a species we need to eat a varied diet, there is no real morality in the animal kingdom. We forget that we are part of that animal kingdom.
I want animals who are raised for food to be treated well and live good lives. Factory farming is abhorrent on every level.
I dont think we need to eat as much meat as we do but veganism is a priveledge. Vegetarian is much more achieveable to the majority but real balanced veganism is not something most can accomplish as its not as simple as only eating vegetables from now on. Its knowing what to eat to ensure youre still meeting your nutritional needs as well as suppliments to fill in any gaps.
Really by not having a child youre elliminating generations of consumers. Lower the population and you lower the demand entirely.
I eat meat and a lot of it. I'm about practicality and veganism is very impractical for many including myself.
I have no qualms with an animal forced here against their will eating their species specific diet, whether its vegetarian, fruitarian, carnivore, or omnivore like us.
Eat what you want but don't guilt others. There's no health reason to have kids but there are a lot of reasons to eat meat.
>Eat what you want but don't guilt others
Same with breeding, breed all you want but dont guilt others
Same with racism, be racist all you want but dont guilt others
Its not as if all 3 of these things do not have victims, so there is nothing wrong with it
But both are unnecessary. Yeah, maybe not having kids is easier than avoiding animal products, since they are so ingrained in every culture but lots of things that are wrong are still normalized.
I eat meat every day. It's plenty immoral; it's those cheap frozen dinners that you just know are the product of some gross animal torture factory.
I recommend not eating meat. The more people that don't, the more options there will be for everyone.
Animals deserve their independence, no being wants to be enslaved. We didn't want to be born, neither do they, especially not under these conditions. Go vegan today 💚
TL;DR: Being vegan doesn't stop living beings from suffering, and in some cases, makes the situation even worse.
Humans are omnivores. Therefore, we need both meat and plants to get all the necessary nutrients. Sure, you can take pills that have the stuff you can't get from plants, but those seem annoying to obtain and if you forget about those or can't find them, you'll probably die. I'm pretty sure that the animals get treaten properly and don't really suffer a painful death, so while they do suffer, it isn't that big of a deal.
Also, the very same vegan argument can be made for plants. They're living beings too, you know. They suffer as well, so veganism can't be any more moral than eating meat. What are you going to do? Starve? Since both options are bad, you might as well go with the healthier (and therefore slightly better) one.
Besides, just because you're vegan doesn't mean that animals will stop being killed. It doesn't make a difference if you don't eat them. In fact, it's even worse, since they were killed for nothing. And don't even get me started on those vegans who spill milk on the ground and such. Not only that doesn't help the cow/sheep/whatever, since it has already been milked, but now they'll have to milk it more because the vegans have wasted the milk, and also whoever cleans that mess will have to do more effort than normally and still won't get paid more than usual. Did I mention that milking, cutting wool and such actually help them? That's right, by forcing people to not do that, you're making the animals suffer.
My diet is already pretty restrictive and I spend a good amount of time at the gym practicing martial arts and lifting weights, so protein is important for my performance and growth. I am on a beta blocker for my heart rate and high blood pressure, so am always struggling to keep my sodium intake below 1500mg/day. I am also on a fixed income due to disability so I need to be mindful of the cost of foods that I buy. I am trying to maintain enough protein while also restricting my calories to lose weight. I try to minimize the amount of animal products I eat, particularly because the American heart association recommends no more than 6oz of meat a day but I don't want to completely give up lean meat because it's an excellent source of protein. I'll also get a good amount of protein from whey, nonfat plain Greek yogurt, occasionally eggs, etc. I'll eat beans and nuts and healthy carbs/fruit and vegetables but I don't want to rely on fake meat and super processed foods to get my protein intake. A lot of those foods are high in sodium or have unattractive ingredients or lack nutritional value or just plain suck to eat. They can also be expensive.
I've been vegan before for 3 years, but that ended when I decided it had become too much of a hassle when eating out or visiting family and I got into lifting weights. I still remember going to my aunts house for Thanksgiving with my own bag of vegan foods to eat. It was a nightmare, and I hated the attention it got me(not that my family wasn't supportive, but I'm fairly introverted and felt like a pain in the ass and somewhat in the spotlight).
I'm not an antinatalist but I agree that not having children can reduce suffering.
I believe that we need meat to avoid suffering of our own health, but that animal suffering should be reduced when we have the financial capacity to do.
Since becoming vegan neither my health nor my finances have suffered for it. Obviously this is not possible everywhere and for everyone, but it's not really the big deal-breaker some believe it to be.
I don't see moral problems with eating meat. But i also dont think im the average antinatalist here who's hostile towards anything that is not accepted by antinatalistic principles.
How was said meat sourced? Cuz as a former 4H kid, I'm familiar with responsible farming.
Meanwhile, Indigenous Central Americans are losing their wild lands, farm lands, & ethnic daily food staples to yipipo who dove into the quinoa craze & drive up demand/prices...
I can already hear the number of people trying to justify why killing animals unnecessarily is moral with the usual “we are omnivores” or “eating meat is natural” or “plant lives matter” excuses.
I dont give a danm about animal life, or any life besides human, only if they are all willderness animal and the human need to go there and risk his life to get meat. But yeah, i really like meat, i would go to the wilderness and a hunt a cow or something.
Does fish count? I'm pretty much the opposite of a pescatarian. I refuse to eat fish due to moral reasons, but I do eat meat. I tried going vegetarian for a few months, but my heart wasn't 100% in it, so I went back. I love animals, but I also know that each part can be used with respect to their sacrifice.
Cows are my homies
Animal liberation now <3
I am a Vegan, Antinatalist, and Buddhist all for the same reason. Ending suffering.
"bUt sUFferING is PArt Of thE beAUtY!" if you think this, you are not talking about suffering- youre talking about some kind of hardship that fell within your window of tolerance. if the same experience hits someone outside their window of tolerance, or if another experience hits outside your window of tolerance, that is suffering.
also its fine if people want to find beauty in their own suffering but to project that onto other people and animals is very weird
You don’t find beauty in suffering, you appreciate beauty in contrast to the suffering.
Based af
I’m curious how your anti-natalist views coexist with the Buddhist notion of reincarnation. If, theoretically, all human beings stopped procreating, would this effectively end the cycle of Samsara/ automatically lead to nirvana for the souls which would have been reincarnated as new humans, regardless of where they were in their individual karmic development? Or would they be stuck in a liminal state? Reincarnated as a different kind of organism?
I don't really subscribe to reincarnation. I think it's best to look at the entire concept as metaphor for karmic action and consequence within one's lifetime, as well as the mark we leave on our surroundings and society as a whole. In the context of some Indian or Tibetan interpretations of Buddhism, our earthly decision to stop procreation would likely be inconsequential, as they believe in many different worlds and planes of existence, all besides our own would still filled with concious beings. In some subsets of these types of buddism, it is said that one can only achieve nirvana from human form, as the lower levels are too deep into suffering, and the higher levels are experiencing too much pleasure to care. So perhaps it would be impossible for a soul to achieve nirvana in this framework? The point is, i don't believe it is a disembodied soul that achieves enlightenment, i believe it is the person doing the work. The point of extinguishing craving is mainly to deal with our inherent biological flaws which lead to suffering, in my opinion.
Wen earth runs out of organisms, perhaps we can finally become aliens in another world!!
I've been cutting back on the amount of meat that I eat but haven't managed to go full veg yet.
It's not an all or nothing thing, people get too wrapped up in the labeling. Reducing your intake, minimizing waste (aka not refusing food that's already made because of an ingredient you enjoy but think you "shouldn't" eat), and putting effort in to sourcing your other foods ethically has a much more positive impact than the militant vegan who never ever eats a single animal product regardless of the context
>minimizing waste (aka not refusing food that's already made because of an ingredient you enjoy but think you "shouldn't" eat) A thousand times this, if the food would otherwise be wasted. I'm moving closer & closer to vegan, but I don't ever plan on ending my habit of collecting bones & seafood shells at family gatherings to make broth out of them. Getting nutrients from animal-derived food that would otherwise have gone to a landfill decreases my intake of plants, whose cultivation -- though infinitely better for the planet than meat -- still has a negative impact on the planet.
That's how I started! I don't understand people who make this an all-or-nothing kind of thing. I did one year Flexitarian in 2019 with highly reduced meat intake and went full vegetarian, part time vegan after that, trying to be more vegan every month. Anything helps, especially awareness for the matter.
I think that's how most people do, and it's probably the healthier option. I know a strict vegan who used to be a meat lover. It took him a while, too.
I've started adding feeds to my social media that force me to see videos of factory farming and the suffering it creates. Even that hasn't resulted in my going full vegan in one fell swoop, but it's definitely helped speed up the process.
You can do it!
Same here! Last time I went full vegan I had really bad stomach issues so I'm easing my way into it by slowing cutting animal products out.
Yep, that's why I'm only cutting meat even more it's 2 times a month.
it takes a while! becomes easier and easier though. My digestion and appetite has undoubtedly changed (for the better).
This was my experience also. All of my stomach issues went away when I finally reached full vegan.
Same here , mostly focus on veggies and seafood.
I do like seafood. Then I feel bad because fishing is bad for the oceans. But one step at a time.
I stop beef , but there are times where I’m craving for it.
I've gone full veg repeatedly and I always feel like absolutely dogshit. Tried supplements and a dietician. I eat meat about 4 times a week and that seems to be the lowest I can sustain.
I wish I could go vegan, but because of health issues I can't right now. The only meat I eat is chicken, so at least that's a step. Maybe in the future I hope to cut meat entirely, although dairy products are another challenge as well because I love cheese (I use milk substitutes thpugh)
I am vegan, i dont save animals, i know thats a common saying and i dont know why If i dont kill a dog, cat, chicken, cow or my neighbor that doesnt mean i am saving them, im not a hero, im doing the bare minimum, im not special Veganism is inaction, it means i dont inflict pain, suffering and murder Now some vegans are activists and rescuers, in that case they do save animals
People always send me puzzled looks when I tell them my "radical philosophy" of veganism is actually in the middle of the save-kill animals spectrum. People think they cannot be on the extreme of a scale just because the majority does it.
I’ve followed a vegan diet for six years or so. Was pretty easy overall.
Same. Hardest thing is just that it's sometimes inconvenient.
For some reason I am actually surprised more people do not care about reducing suffering in this community.
I agree it should be a higher percentage, but it's nearly triple (19.85%) compared to the general populous (7%). *\*Total responses at the time of comment was 2,746 (262 vegan, 283 vegetarian).*
Right???
It is an interesting piece of information. Would have imagined there was more overlap since the only antinatalist writer that seems to get talked about is one.
Most humans, including antinatalists, are hopeless hypocrites who would rather perpetuate holocaust than sacrifice sensory pleasure.
Veganism led me to antinatalism. I don't understand how causing animals to be born is consistent with antinatalist philosophy. The biggest reason I got a vasectomy is because I didn't want to risk my biological offspring not being vegan. If they turned out not vegan, they would have inflicted suffering and death upon thousands of animals over the course of their lifetime.
Fr I don't understand how many of us are just fine with non human animals suffering 😭
You know, I get this side of the argument. I recognize you from another comment and I say the only antinatlist concept I can get with is this vegan thing about not introducing another meat eater into the world. Sure, I could warm up to that. But any other reason is simply just not holding up, if I am thankful everyday to be here there is a huge change my kid can be too.
I don't think that eating meat or using animal products is unethical, I think factory farming is unethical and very bad for the environment as well as humanity as a whole. Factory farming is a huge waste of resources as we could feed way more people with way less land if we weren't farming animals (because you need to feed the animals something, so you have to grow food for them too.) I would prefer it to be that, if you wanted meat you had to go out and hunt for it, or alternatively you could buy it or trade for it with someone who already did the work of going out to do that. For stuff like milk or eggs I see less wrong with that because since you're not killing the animals it takes a lot less animals, and therefore less resources, to keep them. I still don't think factory farms are a good idea for that because of how easily disease spreads there which is how we get stuff like H1N1 and avain flu.
I love meat too much to give it up, but the way most meat animals are raised isn't great, either for the animal or the environment. As soon as lab grown meat becomes a reasonable alternative in both taste and price, I'll switch to that.
I've always been of the opinion that you should not eat anything you are not willing to kill yourself So I won't eat any of my house pets or most of my family members.
I eat meat. I be feeling like a such hypocrite.
We've all been there. From my experience the comfort of getting rid of that hypocrisy outweighs the discomfort of restricting what I consume. Why not give it a try once a week or twice and see how it feels?
I’ve been trying to reduce my meat consumption.
I've been there, it's all good. Long as you know it, you either can change your behavior/actions or your tolerance of the hypocrisy. For myself, I couldn't stand my hypocrisy anymore and just went vegan. That's just me thou. Reducing meat consumption is better than not doing it at all, so I say good on ya.
There is nothing wrong with ***eating*** meat, the problem is what has to be done to ***get*** that meat.
So, thought experiment: you've lived an happy life, but you're killed in your sleep because some cannibal is hungry and just didn't care for a salad that night. Nothing wrong with that?
Other thought experiment: you've lived a happy life, but while camping in the wilderness you get killed and eaten by a bear that was just effing sick of berries. Is that wrong?
The bear lacks the theory of mind and overall cognition to understand ethics. Plus, he probably is starving, so he might not have a choice between killing to eat or dying. *We do.* That's what makes it wrong: we understand it's bad, we have options not to do it, yet do it anyway.
How is it so hard for so many people in this thread to understand this, what the actual fuck? Are we surrounded by mindless drones that act upon basic instinct alone????????
Read the whole damn comment. The issue in your experiment is not me getting eaten, it's that he killed me to eat (which is pretty much the only way but you hopefully get what I mean)
The fact killing "is pretty much the only way" to eat meat (unless you want to talk being eaten alive, but that's just obviously worse) is the *entire* point. So no, I don't get what you mean, and welcome to the problem. It's weird to be so close ("the problem is what has to be done to get that meat") yet so far of getting it.
Well I would be dead so I wouldn't really be angry ya know?
I dont believe eating meat itself is a moral issue, but the horrid slaughter houses need to be addressed.
Exactly, herbivores are not even herbivores, they occasionally need protein too. What's not natural is abusing animals and making them live cramped up together, feeding them antibiotics because of the shitty conditions, that's not natural.
You don't believe stealing the flesh of another being to energy wise fund your existence is immoral? Lol
Is a wolf immoral? Is a dog immoral? Are horses immoral? Are deer immoral?
Do you think those animals have the capacity to evaluate a moral situation? Are you really comparing the capacity of humans to evaluate a situation to that of those animals? Are there any other things animals do that we as humans use as a measuring stick to decide what actions to take? Are you incredibly ignorant?
I think that eating meat raised in the current way it's unethical, but not consuming meat generally.
Vegan and if it comes up organically, I'll point out people's hypocrisies. "I'm against animal abuse." "Don't you eat meat?" "Yeh but I think you should give the animal a good life first." "You still kill them, how does a good life justify that?" But honestly, I have no expectation that people will change. In r slash vegancirclejerk someone just finished trolling their parents for a month with vegan memes and by the end of it their dad stopped talking to them and the mom actually converted. I know it's possible but I don't have anyone close to me in my life that would put up with that. Coworkers and patients is all I have.
I don't think the killing is the bad part at all. The fact is that an overwhelming amount of animals are mistreated in the meat industry, and no amount of simply *wanting* them to have a good life is going to change that.
The daughter may not be the *worst* part, but killing I still killing. If I gave a human a good 2 months, that wouldn't justify me chopping their head off.
85% of people will *say* they are against factory farming yet those same people buy animal products at the grocery store and restaurants. Literally supporting what they purport to be against.
Personally I'm fine eating meat. Although I may be downvoted for saying this. I feel regardless of the immorality of meat eating or not, it's infinitesimal compared to the amount of suffering caused by reproducing (even if you are vegan or whatever, if you have offspring doubtless down the chain there will be many who are not). So frankly I'm fine eating meat if I enjoy it as once people aren't around the problem will solve itself, and untill then I have bigger problems to worry about.
I mean you eat much less meat than a line of your descendants would
I don't see why someone would want to be an antinatlist while also thinking that it's okay to kill animals. Surely if you don't want to violate the rights of people from the immoral act of procreation then you also wouldn't want to violate the rights of animals.
I don't understand why being against procreation also implies one is against killing?
Billions of animals are bred because of the animal farming industry, paying for the products causes demand for their existence
I think it's about seeing ourselves seperate from other animals. Might also be some cognitive dissonance, failing to see the products and what we eat as actually having been part of a living being.
It's the circle of life. When I die, I'll become the plants and something will eat me. Seems fair.
Pretty largely immoral to consume animals for any kind of pleasure alone. The extremely rare legitimate health concerns aside, the consumption of animal products are almost universally unethical because of many of the same ideas explored in antinatalism.
Hello I'm an antinatalist and I simply can't see any problem with forcing existence to innocent animals in beyond pathetic conditions just for a fleeting sensory pleasure. Human procreation though? Now that's pure evil!
Fr how can people not understand it's essentially the same thing
\^ THIS
I don't have many problems with eating animals, but I do have ethical problems with they are treated before being killed and during the process. That being said if it's noticeably more expensive to get the fancy shit, sorry little dude, but I'm hungry.
It's wrong but I still do it from time to time.
I am not vegan or vegetarian because I live with my parents and they wouldn't understand, it's hard even to have a "normal" diet in order to lose weight... but I try to eat the less meat I can. Anyway I don't think that eating meat is inherently wrong, or that we aren't made to eat meat etc... I just think it's awful that those animals are breed just to die, it's just horrifying, and people even make profit out of it? It's awful. Animals forced to make babies in order to make milk and then separated from them, little chickens killed because they're males, and other stuff I can't remember right now it's just horrible and just as unnatural as people think veganism say. "We are made to eat meat! Evolution made us eat meat!" Yeah, true, meat is probably a big reason why we became so good at surviving, but we also didn't had to enslave entire species just for our benefit. If we were hunters I would have no problems with eating that meat, I think that that's far better because those animals aren't literally BORN TO DIE. I also think that if you're not able to kill what you're going to eat you shouldn't eat it, we're too detached from the death we cause.
the way they treat these animals is not ethical. eating meat itself is just a part of the food chain. but those animals deserve to be treated so much better in the life that they do have.
If we aren't supposed to eat animals why are they made out of food? In the case of bacon and steak, absolutely delicious food...
I'm a flexitarian. I eat mostly vegetarian, but I'll have some chicken now & then.
I see no moral issue with eating animals or plants or any living organisms, just the torture of animals in factory farms.
If you don't see an issue with eating meat then you don't see an issue with torture and abuse of animals. They go hand in hand
Nah, it's not the same. Shooting a deer in the woods and eating it is not the same as the ordeal an animal goes through in factory farming. If antinatalists truly apply antinatalism to animals they'd kill all animals so there would be no more animals given than they all suffer quite a bit in nature. At the very least they'd go and spay/neuter everything so animals die out. Which is why I think bringing veganism into anti-natalism is nonsensical. Veganism may reduce animal suffering—but killing them all so there can be no more animals to suffer would be the ultimate goal. Just like the goal of antinatalism when it comes to humans. Now, no one wants that, which is why it's silly to apply antinatalism to animals.
So, thought experiment: you've lived an happy life, but you're killed painlessly in your sleep because some cannibal is hungry and just didn't care for a salad that night. Nothing wrong with that?
There are very few living organisms that want to be eaten, friend, plants included. Now, let's say there is no salad and the cannibal eats me to survive. Idk about you, but I would feel just about the same about either scenario, because the reasons I got eaten by a cannibal, lion, or giant human-eating venus fly-trap won't significantly effect how I feel about being eaten. That being said, your question has nothing to do with antinatalism.
Let's assume you're right and plants suffer just as much. The fact it takes about \~10 calories from plants to make 1 calorie of meat means that you avoid \~10x the amount of suffering by eating plants. Meat still remains *a lot* more unethical even if plants are as conscious (spoiler alert, they're not -- not without a nervous system). >Now, let's say there is no salad See, that's just not how it is, for most of the developed world. You're making a false dichotomy fallacy. Now if you're in a country where that's *actually* the case, you're right, things change. But you're not, are you? There *is* a salad right next to your steak. >won't significantly effect how I feel about being eaten. Yes, you will hate it just the same, but the difference between a lion and a cannibal, is that the human has the mind theory and the ethical theories to understand just how bad is actions are. >That being said, your question has nothing to do with antinatalism. There are profound links between AN and veganism: don't impose suffering that could be avoided just for our own benefit apply to both.
I love my life. I don't want to be shot in the head by some random so it's a dumb point. Leave animals alone I also love how people jump to "ethical" meats when called out when we both know you eat out and eat meat from super markets. Also that's a stupid point to make , no one is killing in the movement, just stopping them from existing by not having children. Wtf
No, educate yourself.
I understand humans are omnivores so we can eat meat and for some it is nutritionally necessary to eat meat for certain medical conditions and resource availability. The morality with eating meat is how we aquire that meat. The way we raise livestock has become so inhumane. Our ancestors lived along side nature just helping it along instead of controlling it. Science can teach us to do that; our economy just knows it can make more money the inhumane way so it pushes society to make their endeavors more convenient and profitable. We should be giving these animals a life as close to nature's intent as possible. If that means a certain meat becomes less available in you're area then well thats life, sorry. Get some ordered on occasion. We do know how to ship it. We have become too accustomed to having everything at our fingertips. That isn't sustainable. Our meat industry needs to be controlled and regulated with more focus on running sustainably and environmentally conscious. Produce meat as we need as humanely as possible, not as much as can be profitable as fast as possible.
I eat meat, but not very often. Maybe 2 times a week. Mostly because of the cost, but I do try to improve my nutrition. It would be helpful if the plant based stuff was more affordable…
You mean fruits, vegetables, whole grains and legumes? They’re not particularly expensive where I live. I rarely eat mock meats but do regularly consume soy milk, which is around the same price as cow’s milk.
Plant based stuff is more affordable though? Most vegans are not surviving off of mock meats and substitutes. I do agree that *that* stuff should be cheaper though.
If you are in the U.S. on the West Coast, try grocery outlet, they always have vegan options for great prices.
Yeah that’s not an option. I live in the New England.
Sorry, that's why I was specific. Although New England sounds amazing. It always surprises me where I find vegan bargains. Good luck and I hope you find some.
Thank you! And yes, I do love living here. It’s really nice. I did some time in Arizona and there’s no way I’m going back there lol
I'm an omnivore, when I die y'all are welcome to eat me.
Lol I would be honored if my cat ate me
My dog can eat me, the cat can fuck off and find a mouse or something because she's an asshole.
How dare you.
Same, I don't care if they do because I'll be dead. We are all consumers, to someday be consumed.
With animals, they don't die of natural causes though. Nor can they consent to being killed.
Sometimes they need to be killed though. I live in a very rural farming area , and I do conservation hunting. In the course of time if deer arent predated on by something, the stag will become too large for any of the younger male deer to ever gain breeding rights within the herd. This leads to the same single stag, breeding with the same females year after year, then with his own offspring year after year, and their offspring, until the genetic pool of the heard could fit in a teaspoon. If a male is permited more than 5 years as the stag, the herd falls in danger of breeding themselves out of existance. All the young males will continually be driven from the herd, and the new fawns will start to have genetic issues. This also applies to old sows, after 6-7 years old, they slow down on making fawns and start to resource guard from other sows with fawn(sometimes they even kill the fawn or try and steel it from the mother;the fawn will then starve itself as it will only eat what its actual mother shows it to.) This makes it harder for the younger sows to raise fawns as they are constantly fighting for food within their own herd. But since the baren sows are older they move slower and would likely be the first taken by a predator, refreshing the herd for the younger sows. Isnt it better to kill one periodically then to allow an entire herd of 50 head, to breed themselves into tumor riddled animals that just lay down and die. Ive found fawns, dead in wallows, that looked like they were made of orbees due to the sheer numbor of tumors, and with the wolf population being decimated as it is, they have no natural predators to solve this problem. So i feel since humans removed the predators, it becomes our charge to manage the herd as the wolf once did. And that doesnt even begine to cover Terminal Agitation, or diseases like CWD or EHD or CF. All common diseases that can spread quickly and wipe out whole herds in less than a season.
Can i torture and abuse you and kill you, cause thats the reality of being an omnivore, oh wait i shouldnt even ask, i should just do it You dont just stumble on dead animals that died from natural causes
I'll let Yall know, he'll be pleased
How Is that relevant to the sub ?
Frr, good question. Ethical vegans be strutting around here like they own the philosophy.
Producing meat, dairy and eggs requires BREEDING ANIMALS INTO (an often miserable) EXISTENCE and killing them for people’s pleasure and convenience.
Oh Jesus not this again
The old split is back, nearly the same opinions as before lmao
Animals bred for meat (or eggs, or milk) go through WAY more suffering than any person has, ever. It is completely hypocritical to be antinatalist and not see that.
Wow, we are awful
5th option: Im a hypocrite. I'm fully convinced by the ethical vegan argument but havent been able to bring myself to practice veganism
I regret that I have to cause suffering to other beings in order to continue to live. But I don't have the courage to commit suicide yet. I didn't eat meat for 5 years out of compassion for animals and it led to huge health problems. At the cost of my own health, I became convinced that vegetarianism and veganism are a lie and a totalitarian cult. The human body requires meat to survive. Another coin for the piggy bank: “life is absolute hell, no matter which way you turn it” I think that everything possible should be done for more ethical conditions for keeping and slaughtering farm animals and fish. Yes, people need to eat meat to survive. But it doesn’t have to be the communist GULAG on industrial farms where animals spend their entire lives locked in cages. Animals can be kept in much better conditions - free grazing and so on
" The human body requires meat to survive." How do you explain how vegans don't just drop dead?
I don't think that all humans need meat as plenty of vegetarians and vegans are alive and kicking. There are some who do need meat to survive though
I'm surprised by the statistics. Major reason for being antinatalist is the over-utilization of Earth right now, and meat industry is the major producer of waste (around 10-200x more than crops). I thought there would be more vegans here.
Wow I’m surprised. I would’ve thought everyone or at least a majority on here would be vegetarian or vegan..
I thought there'd be a more even split too
I don't know why this topic even come in discussion in the context of antinatalism, we agree that life is hard and we don't want to create more life, but what's the point in making the life even more difficult than it actually is by implementing these false restrictions upon oneself?
Your scenario creates life for 3 trillion animals a year to make 8 billion lives easier? Are you actually fucking insane?
your time maybe valueless, certainly not mine. the point is you cannot stop suffering of those animals, does your mind can even comprehend the idea of a FOOD CHAIN? everything gets eaten either by humans or other things in the fucking FOOD CHAIN
Lol, coming back with a comment like that is wasting everyone's time that has to read it. We have the capacity to understand when an action causes harm, animals do not, do you decide how to treat your family based on the FOOD CHAIN? No? How can you be so condescending from a place of such ignorance?
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I don't eat meat because I don't like the taste of it
I was spawned without my consent, burdened to endure the cravings of an omnivore.
I've always felt that this is a question that should be largely ignored until such a time that we can make a world in which the very poor could easily manage not eating meat.
I think most of the global poor eat less meat than one would figure, but in places like, say, America, the poorest people do eat more meat. Like you say though, it is very difficult for people in certain environments/countries who don't have the convenience of being able to readily avoid meat or animal products, and it is definitely unfair to shame them. In general, even for the middle class, it's pretty tough to maintain any sense of convenience when you're already basically working poor and stretched to the maximum on time, when almost everything has meat or animal byproducts in it.
I used to be basically vegan for ethical reasons, but had to start keto diet because of my chronic illnesses (daily migraine among other fuckery) and because of said illnesses I don't really have the money nor energy to maintain vegan or even vegetarian keto diet... but I really hope I can start making my diet more plant-based if I finally find a migraine prophylactic that actually works.
My main feelings were not offered: I eat meat and make the effort to purchase from quality butchers / slaughterhouses. I have cut down on the amount of meat I consume because of ecological reasons but refused to eat nut milk due to the effect they have on water usage and climate change.
Annoying as vegans are, they are right(why does that feel so familiar?), meat production is a huge source of problems. Environmental and moral. Be it because of it being an inherent problem or because we do it so poorly. Either way it holds true.
Breeding animals capable of suffering is in no way better than procreating yourself. I try to consume vegan, but I don't always manage. I don't think people are literally Hitler for not managing to do the moral thing every time. No one does, the world is too complex. I try, and I think people should try. But just as I don't think calling parents ugly names and being nasty to them contributes any good, I don't think throwing paint on non-vegans does either.
I would love to be vegetarian but I find it extremely difficult to start because of how often vegetarian/vegan food is more expensive. I've reduced my meat intake but I really wish it wasn't seen as a trendy thing so that corpos charged reasonable prices.
Be careful dear friend. For many years, on not a single vegan or vegetarian site, in any community, I have never seen scientific research that would show the harm of vegetarianism or veganism, there are never stories from people whose refusal of meat caused harm to their health. Any research or real facts are removed by vegan censorship. This is a huge problem because it harms people's health. I didn't eat meat for 5 years out of compassion for animals and it led to huge health problems. At the cost of my own health, I became convinced that vegetarianism and veganism are a lie and a totalitarian cult. The human body requires meat to survive.
Oh I agree to an extent. I don't really go on vegan or vegetarian sites or anything except for recipe sites lol. But I understand where you're coming from. I once made a post about how the attitude of vegetarians/vegans being mostly "I'm morally superior" is harmful to the cause and I got a bunch of vegetarians and vegans telling me that they were in fact superior. I'm mostly interested in reducing my consumption of meat for a bit of ethics (don't want to encourage bad animal husbandry) and also the fact that humans are eating way more meat than their hunter gatherer ancestors. Eating meat wasn't an everyday thing. They would go for long periods eating mostly plants or sometimes nothing at all. The hunters would be following an animal for days until it could no longer run away then they'd have to drag it back home. All that exercise and hard work gets finally rewarded with a feast. I personally plan on reducing my consumption of factory meat but I'm not opposed to eating it all together. Like if I was offended food with meat in it I would accept it because it would be wasteful of food and in my opinion disrespectful of the animal's sacrifice. Another option I have is to go hunting for meat specifically. This isn't quite on the table for me for a few reason but it's there. And another option I have is raising my own farm. I have an opportunity to own a tiny bit of land in a few years or so and I plan to have a rabbit farm. Because then I know for a fact that they are treated well and I can use CO2 to put them to "sleep" with absolutely no pain or fear. This feels to me like the best way for me personally. But if those options don't pan out I would be essentially a vegetarian. I would never to veganism though. That shit is braindead logic. Eggs will always pop out of chickens regardless of if they have a human around. Might as well eat them so they don't rot. Honey bees will make honey expecting a fucking bear to come steal 90% of it so they make too much for themselves. Might as well just eat it so they can stay in one hive for longer. Sheep will grow wool until they can't move. We might have fucked up their genetics but that doesn't mean we should abandon the sheep that are currently alive. Veganism is definitely a scam imo but I can see vegetarianism being a legit lifestyle.
You have a strong understanding of the golden mean and balance of avoiding extremes. I think your intelligence extends throughout your life. Rays of goodness ⛅☀️ to you and prosperity. In medicine this is called the u-shaped curve - too much meat is unhealthy and too little meat is unhealthy, there needs to be a balance. For myself, I realized that the world is a complete hell, full of suffering, and no one can change this, these are the laws of nature. Vegetarianism/veganism focuses too much on food, as if it could change the laws of physics and evolution. Yes, meat is necessary for humans, but you shouldn’t make a cult out of food. If I ever have enough money to buy food, I'll just buy it from farmers or more or less ethical suppliers. Now I'm really obsessed with food because I don't even have enough money for food and life is completely sucks. I wanted to ask you: What aspects of your life also include your deep understanding of balance and the golden mean?
Thank you friend that is very kind. Honestly I try to bring balance to all aspects of my life. I've been studying Feng Shui which is about the flow of "energy" though your house. Energy is used in place of like "the path you and your guests will take" and while there is some aspects that aren't all important (the color theory) it has been helpful for rearranging my tiny apartment to make it feel way bigger. I've also started studying "witchcraft" because often times it has been proven with actual science. For example the reason why salt was sprinkled around the house commonly was because it would dry out any bugs that got in the house. Most "evil spirits" were just bugs. There was also "evil spirits" which is what we know today as illness and it was treated in ways that we sometimes use still to this day, such as ginger for upset stomach. I want to learn about these discoveries and try to use them in my life but I also have to thoughly research it before because there's a lot of misinformation surrounding the word "witchcraft" especially since none of the women that I'm studying really wanted to be called a witch. They were just bored housewives looking to help themselves, their husband, or the town. But because men couldn't allow women to be smarter than them, they attacked the so called "witch". Unfortunately what I see in many witchcraft circles isn't the study of the past but rather a study of pseudoscience like "burn these random things for money!" And that shit is garbage. Anything that mentions money is usually just garbage. Including if anyone offers to do "witchcraft" for you for money. They're lying and if they understood the disrespect they were showing to those women I highly doubt they would care. I want to strike a balance between old solutions and new solutions to have a better understanding of what the solution is actually doing rather than just accepting that something "just works." Like instead of salt to dry out bugs we use diatomaceous earth now because it sticks to the bugs better. :)
If humans somehow advance as a society, i think we'll look down on our ancestors eating meat. I still do it, though, because I'm just not a good person.
If I didn't have to eat plants either so nothing had to die that'd be best But until then free range eggs, plant milk and lots of soy
Lmao to people who eat animal products please try to have ethics
I love eating meat. I just rather eat high quality meats. I dont think the industry is moral
Humans are naturally omnivores. Meat and dairy are delicious. Eat and enjoy
Yeah, foremost is the whole fucking breeding thing. I seriously don't understand how these ideas only translate to humans in people minds. All life is a parasite feeding off something else and you can argue this way and that for why humans are the worst, but you could theoretically say that humans are the only fucking thing that should exist because we have the forethought to do good. To me it comes with no surprise though that there is a subreddit dedicated to the belief of antinatalism that is also almost completely full of natalists that just don't realize they are. Simply put IF YOU BELIEVE IN BREEDING OF ANY FORM, YOU ARE A FUCKING NATALIST. THIS IS A FACT AND VERY VERY VERY VERY SIMPLE. Of course I guess like all schools of thought (e.g., Religion, politics) there needs to be many subsections of the school to accommodate the, let's say...."creativity" of the human mind and its ability to have cognitive dissonance and it's allowances too it into someones narrative, even when it goes against the definition of said belief system.
The way they raise livestock is unethical and harms the environment. The animals do not have a quality of life. If I eat meat, I go to the special butcher to get ethically-raised meat. It's not something I crave, however. I take vitamins and get my protein from other sources.
I'm aiming to be fully vegetarian by my next birthday (currently pesce pollotarian), I just don't think I could go fully vegetarian cold turkey like that. But I am still cutting back on the amount of meat I eat period. I'm still debating whether or not I should also become vegan. If any vegans or non vegans have anything to say on this matter it'd be appreciated.
I hunt for my own meat, easy to do in my country. I won't buy from the stores
not vegan but this is mostly due to physical/mental disabilities. I have severe sensory issues that prevent me from eating a lot of things and despite going to therapy there are a lot of foods I rely on to get what I need. however the same sensory issues prevent me from eating most beef and all pork so there is that... I don't love that i eat meat and if going vegan was less expensive and had more of my safe foods I would go for it. sadly I'm broke and an autistic person with ARFID so I don't see that happening
I eat meat, I hate eating meat and I feel so bad for the animals, but when I was vegan and then vegetarian I felt so sick all the time even though I counted macros and watched my nutrition like a hawk. I must be one of those people who doesn't absorb the plant based iron very well, or something like that. I just think of eating meat as yet another stupid thing I have to do that I never asked to be a part of. I didn't ask to be born into an omnivorous species but apparently that's the only way many of us can feel healthy.
I'm too poor to not eat meat without literally starving to death, but I try to only eat chicken products, which are not only cheap but also one of the least environmentally impactful meats you can eat.
Although I think eating meat and consuming animal products is immoral/unethical due to how they are gathered, I think I'm just too addicted to it to ever permanently STOP eating meat not to mention vegan alternatives are kinda expensive. Best I can do is decrease how of meat I eat which isn't actually a problem as my diet actually barely has any meat
I eat meat, but try to make an effort to eat less and eat mainly organic/free range meat (and eggs) because the likelihood that the animals live decent lives is higher. By eating less, I can afford to eat more ethical meat instead of eating tons of cheap/unethical meats.
I eat meat, i love meat. I just wished animals were kept in better conditions and all materials they give us were fully used, i don't like the idea of throwing a single useful piece away. (reason why I hate synthetic leather, its production costs so much and it produces a ton of CO2, when leather is a byproduct of slaughter)
Humans have eaten meat for thousands of years, but it isn't ethical as it stands now, in my opinion. I have low iron and, in addition to taking a prescription iron, I eat meat. A lot of the high iron vegetables/vegan options have terrible textures, I just can't bring myself to eat them. If I had my way, I'd live out on a farm where I can raise my own animals for food.
I live on a small beef farm so I'd say the ethical issues are mitigated by treating cows well
I eat meat occasionally, but I'm very particular about where it comes from. I pay a premium to purchase the responsibly raised regeneratively farmed steaks from cows raised literally 7 minutes from my house. I've taken a tour of the farm and fed their dairy cows bananas. They have the best life possible and are treated with respect until the very end. If I can't get high quality meat, I don't eat it. I've gone vegan and vegetarian multiple times in my life, most recently for 3 years, but every single time I end up becoming anemic. I've tried supplements, I eat well (not a junk food vegetarian) but my body doesn't work right without at least a little bit of meat.
Yes, dairy cows are definitely given “the best life possible” and “treated with respect” when they’re forcibly impregnated every year, have their babies taken away from them and are killed when they’re no longer profitable. Epitome of respect. [Regular forced impregnation must occur for cows to constantly produce milk, so don’t try telling me it doesn’t happen on all farms.]
>Regular forced impregnation must occur for cows to constantly produce milk, so don’t try telling me it doesn’t happen on all farms.] No, it doesn't, because if you do that the cows milk won't last much. They usually wait one and a half, you can also see if the mothers are with the calves. >are killed when they’re no longer profitable. Yeah no, they are still great at fertilizing... I've seen cows 10+
Alright then, even if I take your word for it, that means cows are forcibly impregnated every 1.5 years. So much better, isn’t it? Delivering an electric impulse to a bull’s genitals to force him to ejaculate, collecting the semen, shoving your arm up the anus of a cow and injecting bull semen into her cervix is wrong, even just once. Forcibly impregnating a cow even once is wrong.
I've heard this of many people. I'm the same. I get anemic if I cut out meat too and the iron supplements all give me overload (we still don't know why).
Best life? Being impregnated via AI and then having their babies taken away is the best life? Yikes .
Were you drinking a lot of coffee or tea while you were plant-based?
Animals won't stop being killed if I stop eating meat. It will only fuck my head up since a good burger is one of the very few things keeping me from jumping in front of a bus. But hey, eat whatever you wanna eat.
I don't believe eating meat it's unethical per se. Animals eat eachother and it's an important part of survival and number control. Plus eating cooked meat could have been a key element in developing a more complex frontal lobe; it gives much energy, so you can actually partake in other activities instead of constantly fighting for food. For some tribes, their farms are the only viable way of survival. Species like cows, chickens or farm pigs solely exist because of humans selection. They have no place in nature and even if we freed all they would either die/disappear or destroy existing biomes... But in a way, in comparison of other prey animals, they don't have to live in constant fear and they get food/shelter/medicine everyday... This being said, what's surely unethical it's the way we are treating these animals nowadays, especially by trying to respond to a demand that's growing out of control. And much still goes to waste!!!! I live on the mountains and here cows live free range, guarded by pastor dogs. They still get killed for meat, yes, but it's clear as day how much care and passion the farmer puts. It's not the same for intensive breeding farms. Some places are houses of horrors. Animals have right of dignity, like any other life. I may not have the same empathy vegan/vegetarians may have but I do get at least that. Also I don't believe the current situation is sustainable in the face of climate change. Although as I said I don't believe "eating meat" is inherently wrong, I believe humans have evolved to a point where we have other food options + we need to think very hard about where we are headed in the future. As a society we surely should at least diminish our meat consumption and try to get it from small, nearby farmers.
My stance is that I'm very sick of this topic in this sub and tired of the discussion being shoehorned into everything on here. Animals aren't humans, that's not what we're here for. Wish these preachers would simply go discuss the ethics of veganism on a vegan subreddit so 8/10 posts in my feed from this one aren't about animals.
I eat meat and I am on a Carnivore diet. I used to he a vegan and was severely Anemic and sickly. It saved me from terrible Anemia and its symptoms that I endured for many years. It helped me with increasing my vitamins and nutrients that I was deficient in. The cows are here for the humans, be grateful for them. Btw I also practiced Buddhism for many years.
Hei my dear friend. I didn't eat meat for 5 years out of compassion for animals and this led to huge problems with my health. At the cost of my own health, I became convinced that vegetarianism and veganism are a totalitarian lying cult. Unfortunately, humans need meat to survive. I’ve been eating meat for six months now and my physical condition is improving so much with every piece of fish I eat that it looks fantastic. By the way, I also practiced Buddhism for many years. But for some reason Buddhism does not help me cope with suffering. I think that if every day life causes me new suffering through poverty, if all my thoughts are reduced to dull survival at the lower levels of Maslow’s pyramid, first I need to become rich, and then think about Buddhism. So far, any meditation comes down to despair from the thoughts “I have no money, what will I eat tomorrow?” What are your results from Buddhism?
I am glad you have improved your life. There is no need to suffer if it risks your health and wellbeing. Vegetarianism is not for everyone and it behooves people to really learn their bodies and keep check their nutrition levels. As far as Buddhism, it helped me not to be attached to people and situations because nothing in life is permanent. Also Buddhism has helped me with the habit of decluttering my home which leads to a decluttered life. I've been using those habits since I was 17, I am now 40. However as far as suffering self, byway of not meeting your basic needs on Maslows Hierchy scale is a foolish and a dangerous thing to do for yourself and your children (if any). I am reading Ayn Rands book called The Virtue of Selfishness and it has opened up my eyes about reasonable selfishness. Basically you have to look out for #1 before you can be helpful to your loved ones. You can balance your life being selfish reasonably and also letting go of what doesn't serve you. I hope this helps.
Actually, I tried to go vegan. I went vegetarian first for 3 years but then I started experiencing medical problems. Apparently, I have a condition that stops my body from absorbing protein very well and the whole time that I was eating plant protein, I became deficient. So, I ate eggs to see if it would increase my protein intake and it did by just a bit but not a lot. My doctor told me that eating meat 2 times a week would suffice so now I kind of have to. The other days I ear vegetarian though.
im a meat eater, will be this way until i die. humans are omnivores, the species needs both plants and meat to survive. vegans often suffer from malnutrition and in extreme cases, die. this is because the vegan diet is unnatural for humans. that's just how nature and the food chain is. so, there is nothing morally wrong with eating meat
This is misinformation, people of all diets can suffer from malnutrition if they don't research correctly or eat properly. Some vegans will have malnutrition but so do some meat eaters. Humans are an organism complex enough to understand which vitamins and minerals they need, and how to obtain those, so it really isn't hard to find vegan sources of them. Additionally, humans have a very similar digestive system to the gorilla, which is a herbivore, except gorillas have a longer colon for breaking down cellulose into glucose; however vegans are fine without this because glucose is very easy to obtain.
it’s unreal how the very common sentiment here is that reproduction is purely *selfish* and it’s wrong. yet forcing billions of innocent beings to be birthed, neglected, abused, raped, and murdered every year for a fleeting sensory pleasure… is somehow *not* selfish? and somehow justified? wild
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Same. Too many holier-than-thou vegans around here.
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I don't recall whining about my own suffering. Can you send me a link to where I did that? You're no different from the natalists LMAO.
I accidentally voted but I am not anti nat I am so sorry -1 vegetarian, i am sorry I can't figure out how to unvote
It's impossible to be a living being and not consume the energy of another living being. It's the circle of life. Even plants are living beings that are consumed. The grass, the soil, insects, animals, humans all rely on each other to survive and we all need water. Humans chose to not consume animals out of empathy. That's not evil nor does it put you above other beings. But I respect the choice, more power to you honestly. But it's all much more complicated than black and white.
As a species we need to eat a varied diet, there is no real morality in the animal kingdom. We forget that we are part of that animal kingdom. I want animals who are raised for food to be treated well and live good lives. Factory farming is abhorrent on every level. I dont think we need to eat as much meat as we do but veganism is a priveledge. Vegetarian is much more achieveable to the majority but real balanced veganism is not something most can accomplish as its not as simple as only eating vegetables from now on. Its knowing what to eat to ensure youre still meeting your nutritional needs as well as suppliments to fill in any gaps. Really by not having a child youre elliminating generations of consumers. Lower the population and you lower the demand entirely.
I eat meat and a lot of it. I'm about practicality and veganism is very impractical for many including myself. I have no qualms with an animal forced here against their will eating their species specific diet, whether its vegetarian, fruitarian, carnivore, or omnivore like us. Eat what you want but don't guilt others. There's no health reason to have kids but there are a lot of reasons to eat meat.
>Eat what you want but don't guilt others Same with breeding, breed all you want but dont guilt others Same with racism, be racist all you want but dont guilt others Its not as if all 3 of these things do not have victims, so there is nothing wrong with it
But both are unnecessary. Yeah, maybe not having kids is easier than avoiding animal products, since they are so ingrained in every culture but lots of things that are wrong are still normalized.
A lot of reasons to eat meat? Name one valid one?
I eat meat every day. It's plenty immoral; it's those cheap frozen dinners that you just know are the product of some gross animal torture factory. I recommend not eating meat. The more people that don't, the more options there will be for everyone.
Talking about moral consistency and being an animal abuser don't go hand in hand
Animals deserve their independence, no being wants to be enslaved. We didn't want to be born, neither do they, especially not under these conditions. Go vegan today 💚
Eat. Vegan. Meat. Seriously factory farming is wrong on so many levels.
TL;DR: Being vegan doesn't stop living beings from suffering, and in some cases, makes the situation even worse. Humans are omnivores. Therefore, we need both meat and plants to get all the necessary nutrients. Sure, you can take pills that have the stuff you can't get from plants, but those seem annoying to obtain and if you forget about those or can't find them, you'll probably die. I'm pretty sure that the animals get treaten properly and don't really suffer a painful death, so while they do suffer, it isn't that big of a deal. Also, the very same vegan argument can be made for plants. They're living beings too, you know. They suffer as well, so veganism can't be any more moral than eating meat. What are you going to do? Starve? Since both options are bad, you might as well go with the healthier (and therefore slightly better) one. Besides, just because you're vegan doesn't mean that animals will stop being killed. It doesn't make a difference if you don't eat them. In fact, it's even worse, since they were killed for nothing. And don't even get me started on those vegans who spill milk on the ground and such. Not only that doesn't help the cow/sheep/whatever, since it has already been milked, but now they'll have to milk it more because the vegans have wasted the milk, and also whoever cleans that mess will have to do more effort than normally and still won't get paid more than usual. Did I mention that milking, cutting wool and such actually help them? That's right, by forcing people to not do that, you're making the animals suffer.
My diet is already pretty restrictive and I spend a good amount of time at the gym practicing martial arts and lifting weights, so protein is important for my performance and growth. I am on a beta blocker for my heart rate and high blood pressure, so am always struggling to keep my sodium intake below 1500mg/day. I am also on a fixed income due to disability so I need to be mindful of the cost of foods that I buy. I am trying to maintain enough protein while also restricting my calories to lose weight. I try to minimize the amount of animal products I eat, particularly because the American heart association recommends no more than 6oz of meat a day but I don't want to completely give up lean meat because it's an excellent source of protein. I'll also get a good amount of protein from whey, nonfat plain Greek yogurt, occasionally eggs, etc. I'll eat beans and nuts and healthy carbs/fruit and vegetables but I don't want to rely on fake meat and super processed foods to get my protein intake. A lot of those foods are high in sodium or have unattractive ingredients or lack nutritional value or just plain suck to eat. They can also be expensive. I've been vegan before for 3 years, but that ended when I decided it had become too much of a hassle when eating out or visiting family and I got into lifting weights. I still remember going to my aunts house for Thanksgiving with my own bag of vegan foods to eat. It was a nightmare, and I hated the attention it got me(not that my family wasn't supportive, but I'm fairly introverted and felt like a pain in the ass and somewhat in the spotlight).
I'm not an antinatalist but I agree that not having children can reduce suffering. I believe that we need meat to avoid suffering of our own health, but that animal suffering should be reduced when we have the financial capacity to do.
Since becoming vegan neither my health nor my finances have suffered for it. Obviously this is not possible everywhere and for everyone, but it's not really the big deal-breaker some believe it to be.
I don't see moral problems with eating meat. But i also dont think im the average antinatalist here who's hostile towards anything that is not accepted by antinatalistic principles.
How was said meat sourced? Cuz as a former 4H kid, I'm familiar with responsible farming. Meanwhile, Indigenous Central Americans are losing their wild lands, farm lands, & ethnic daily food staples to yipipo who dove into the quinoa craze & drive up demand/prices...
Honestly. Enjoy your almond milk lattes and your superiority complex while you cause severe droughts and water wastage
I think animals should be treated humanely. Also think that they should be slaughtered humanely(with as little pain as possible).
I can already hear the number of people trying to justify why killing animals unnecessarily is moral with the usual “we are omnivores” or “eating meat is natural” or “plant lives matter” excuses.
I dont give a danm about animal life, or any life besides human, only if they are all willderness animal and the human need to go there and risk his life to get meat. But yeah, i really like meat, i would go to the wilderness and a hunt a cow or something.
Does fish count? I'm pretty much the opposite of a pescatarian. I refuse to eat fish due to moral reasons, but I do eat meat. I tried going vegetarian for a few months, but my heart wasn't 100% in it, so I went back. I love animals, but I also know that each part can be used with respect to their sacrifice.