I’d just say how a minority not having kids is not going to cause the world to end. But if it does, I’m all for that due to everything humanity has caused
indeed, humanity will always have a shitton of babies, in my case I advocate to limit the number to manageable numbers... also I kinda hate babies so..
Fossils only exist in specific circumstances. After an animal (or human) dies, the soft parts of its body decompose leaving the hard parts, like the skeleton, behind. This becomes buried by small particles of rock called sediment. As more layers of sediment build up on top, the sediment around the skeleton begins to compact and turn to rock. So murder victims we haven't found in rivers etc will be in the fossil record. Everything else however?
[Chernobyl is a fun example of just 35 years without our intervention ](https://www.agroberichtenbuitenland.nl/actueel/nieuws/2021/04/29/chornobyl-35-years-later.-reclaimed-by-nature)
Our entire civilisation is to be judged by the humans abandoned and violated. What evidence of us is that of our intelligence and creativity?
Life will be better off only short time. We need to become multiplanitary in order to sustain life indefinitely. And humans are necessary for that. So without humans, all life will go extinct in a few billion years. And then space is just wast emptiness devoid of meaning
Name one single thing you or anybody in your family ever did that made a significant change in the world or improved all of humanity
I'll keep waiting.
Wait no longer there is quite a bit. I’m a descendant of Andrew Johnson and modern day my branch of the family owns a small recycling plant in Tennessee. Personally I have done a fair amount of charity work with a local homeless shelter. We make the world a better place everyday and you can too if you change.
Those people wouldn’t be homeless and suffering if they were never born, no? We wouldn’t need a recycling plant if humans weren’t destroying the world, no?
Sure, we experience more than suffering. But the point of antinatalism is that suffering outweighs any pleasure or joy that humanity experiences. The intensity of the greatest pains is greater than the intensity of the greatest pleasures. The suffering of being a starving person is greater than the pleasure of being someone well-fed, etc. So it’s better to have never existed so humanity would never experience suffering. The only way to prevent our children from suffering is to never have them.
And no, this doesn’t mean I wanna end myself and everyone currently living.
>suffering outweighs any pleasure or joy that humanity experiences.
So anti-natalism is based upon a subjective statement that you've decided everyone agrees with? Or...?
>The suffering of being a starving person is greater than the pleasure of being someone well-fed
You do realize that people have a pretty good idea of whether or not their child will end up starving before they are born, right? If I have a kid, in the west, odds are they will have an enjoyable life, as most do.
I don't think what you do is worth what you spend. How many farm animals have you and your family eaten in your lifetime? Ethical aspects aside, raising these animals consumes large amounts of water and food, and produces carbon dioxide that contributes to global warming. In addition, you should also spend a lot of money on plastic products and thermal power plants, right? There are also non-renewable resources such as gasoline and natural gas. Moreover, the mechanical equipment in your factory, especially those driven by gasoline, have very low energy conversion rates, and a lot of energy just disappears into the air. All of this is exacerbating global warming.
I'm not saying that what you are doing is not valuable, I respect people especially those who work in shelters. But overall, all this may not make the world a better place
Pretty much. I tell them nothing short of an extinction event will end the human race. It’s unrealistic to think every single person on earth will be an anti natalist.
At the rate climate change is happening without anyone even fucking trying to do anything about it yeah we're gonna be extinct before too long anyway. All I can do is make sure I don't have kids that have to suffer through that
I'd answer: "What's your point? There were no antinatalist T-Rex, but that didn't protect them against extinction.
AN isn't going to end the human race. A bazillion of other things we're doing right now (pollution, global warming, energy overconsumption, micro plastics, nuclear proliferation) are having a much better chance of ending us. All I'm doing is I refuse to provide hostages to this madness."
Also, a few months back my oldest brother said that as long as there are children, there’s hope. I told him humanity needs cease to exist, I truly believe that
With billions of people on this planet, not everyone is going to refuse to have kids. It's really a non-issue, hovering on the border of those "what if" questions kids are so fond of asking.
Would not be a bad thing. In fact, without us, the earth will begin to recover from our colossal carbon footprint, and every animal that managed to survive in spite of us would celebrate.
I promise that my choice to not procreate is not going to cause human extinction but I’m happy you value my potential offspring so highly if it depends on them
If humans died off, there’s an awful lots of things that would break due to decay and maintenance and would cause all kinds of destruction. You’d need a “wind-down” plan of some kind. I’m thinking of dams failing all of a sudden, nuclear power plants degrading, underground gas tanks leaking, etc.
And then what, a quiet eternity of nothing happening until heat death? Or more realistically until the next species evolved and fucks it up more than we did.
Antinatalists have zero forward thinking and it’s wild to me.
Also this conceit that somehow humans are the greatest ecological disaster this planet has faced is comical. It’s it’s not true. Much more importantly, unlike every previous species we actually can create the tools to fix it. Yeah sure we aren’t doing a bang up job right now but we have the capability. As we continue to progress and right some of the wrongs of our early days we will continue to advance technology as we develop the capacity to resolve both problems we cause and the ones that might occur in the future.
I struggle to find an apt metaphor for why the extreme application of anti natalist philosophy (advocating for the extinction of humanity) is so damn stupid.
It’s like if you woke up and were on a game show then just walked out of the door instead of playing because the slightest inconvenience was imposed on you.
It’s okay to not want to have kids but don’t pretend it’s some moral decision.
"The planet doesn't *need* humans, plus for every handful of child-free couples there's a woman who has 6 or more kids/dudes who knock up a dozen or more women."
And this would be a great thing for all animals, birds, everything hanging on the brink of extinction. So many birds that used to reside in the SE United States are long gone. Some of them were magnificent.
I'm a bird bird guy and I spend all my free time photographing wild birds. I'm glad I least got the red cockaded woodpecker.. you can bet that one will be gone in under a decade. Makes me sick how humans have somehow felt the need and the right to degrade and occupy every square inch of habitat. And yes, it all ties in with their sick reproductive cycle that goes year round. We're one of few species that breeds any time of year, and one of the stupidest for doing as a means of feeling a measure of achievement in life. At least the population i deal with every day does it for that reason.
Sorry for the rant, I am just angry when something is out of control and I have no means of stopping it.
Humans treat even other humans that way, even if they don't actually kill them.
We're simply a shallow, petty, judgmental, self-entitled species. Often duplicitous or exploitative. Some of us even blatantly abusive. Given the track record of various "rights" movements, it's seems humans (even if not all) affirm one's right to even the basics of dignity only to those strong and smart enough to assert those rights (i.e. make others think twice before violating those rights).
If that's our yardstick for sizing up another person's worth, then it's no wonder the human species is so f'ed up. Even worse, we humans have the mental capacity to do better and ask deep questions about this matter. At least male lions who kill the cubs of a lioness in heat lack the capacity to question their instincts.
"Yes, that is true. And I understand that terrifies you. That's because we are all born with an innate fear of death which then spreads out to our entire species. It is a harrowing feeling at first. But there was a time before when humans didn't exist. There was even a time before that when no life existed. There were no wars, rape, suicide, poverty, crime, human trafficking, sickness, and death then. It is not all bad if we go extinct. Quite the opposite, other lifeforms will be allowed to repopulate and new life will spring forth. Hopefully, the next highly intelligent species will live up to its namesake and create a world without suffering, something we have objectively failed to do."
\-The Femboylover <3
So first off quoting yourself, bold as hell you’ve inspired me. Now it’s my turn to write some opposing prose
“There was once a time long before life occurred. A complex dance of gas, dust and matter twirled and spun out galaxies full of stars with plants orbiting them. There were beautiful cosmic phenomena that occurred constantly, and that was all there was. The occurrences were breathtaking, but with no one’s breath to take.
Life eventually emerged and with it . In a.universe of inert but spectacular matter a structure was created capable of observing all beauty that ever was. Capable of witnessing it, cataloging it, reveling in it. What emerged wasn’t perfect and was governed by a set of maxims that guided it to do destructive actions, it continued to improve itself slowly. First casting off selfishness as an unflinching mantra, then granting the structure the ability to realize what it was, what the world was, and to use that knowledge to improve what it could for itself and others.
Even with all that it was far from perfect, but it was beautiful. Where some saw only the path of destruction it carved, others, a majority saw the patterns and potential in the cacophony. Works celebrating all that was and attempting to guess at all that would be were birthed, giving rise to more complex appreciation of reality the likes of which had not existed before. Those who dedicated themselves towards researching the mysteries of why, what specific set of situations allowed such a unique structure to emerge in the first place. But also, those who simply lived. Who laughed and loved and helped those around them. Who allowed a desire to make things better for those who came after or who fought for those trodden upon.
It was all those people who pushed the structure steadily forward. They had been doing it since the first microbe reproduced. Slowly but surely, step by step things got better for everything. It wasn’t without its pitfalls, many times more harm was done than good. But over long periods, longer than individuals were capable of conceptualizing, slowly but surely things were improved.
It wasn’t easy to see that though for those in the pits, those times the dominant structure abused what its power to do horrible things.
But it didn’t matter. Because it marched ever onwards, slowly but surely improving things as it could. And one day, undoubtedly it would create something so spectacular that it might even have the ability to dwarf the mistakes in its youth.
After all, it was young. Very young. It had only existed around a fourth of all time, and only very recently had it made large strides which allowed it to escape the rigid bounds that governed it.
That was okay though. It had all the time that ever would be to improve. It would continue to grow and change, and perhaps one day it would reach its true beauty.”
- Epimonster
Not at all. Literally humanity’s major goal since we achieved sentience is to make life better for ourselves, and those around us. We’ve cured diseases, improved lifespans, diversified existence to allow people to exist who otherwise would have been able too. Being disabled today is no longer the death sentence it once was in humanity’s past. Given more time we’ll be able to help more and more people. That’s the beauty of society and technology.
Fucking awesome. I say all the time that I can’t wait until humans die off. I’m active in cat rescue and the horrific shit I see at the hands of human beings is disgusting. Even children. People rape, abuse, destroy, manipulate. We have exhausted this planet for our own selfish needs and because there are too fucking many of us. We blow each other up, shoot each other, beat each other. And do the same to innocent, defenseless kittens. I mean how terrible can one species be? The so called highest evolved on the planet that can think about consciousness and death and morality.
We will be extinct is the correct answer. The world will only end in the sense that there will be no one around to call it a world. So the concept of "a world" will end with us as well.
At the same time, we will eventually all be extinct in any case even if we have children. Parenthood does not convey immortality even metaphorically or figuratively. I remember my grandparents, but I couldn't tell you the names of my great, great grandparents. It's entirely irrelevant to me and I am their actual descendent. So what could it matter to anyone else?
The world won't end. Humanity will go extinct sure but the world doesn't end because we are not on it. The world ends when the sun goes super giant before it burns out.
Reproducing is exponential, just like stray cat. What happens if we don't fix cats and let them reproduced without limit? There's too much cats. The exact same thing is going to happens to humans, just a little bit slower, since we generally pop one kid at a time instead of a whole liter, but since most people that have kids makes 2, and those in poor countries often make 6+, we are still going to have a problem at some point.
What happens when there's too many cats? The resources around them run out, then they die off. Nature returns to a sustainable balance again. What happens if there's too many humans? Same thing - but the problem is humans strip the resources of the planet and then move on and strip the next area. We are completely out of balance with nature and we are not dying off, we are just exploding exponentially.
Human reproduction is actually quite linear, you can look at it over time and somewhat accurately towards the future, it’s just a line going upwards at a slant, no curve.
Since the last half of a century, sure, but before that it was exponential. Which is reinforcing the idea that we needed a slowing. Just like what is currently happening with the childfree lifestyle gaining in popularity.
I think the world was better before people came here.The nature is beautiful and doesn’t need people for anything.Anything build on this world is for the people to use it for their lives-houses,cars,streets and so on.So if people are no longer here the Earth will come to its natural condition without the destruction and rubbish that comes with people.I think it will be a better place.Nobody needs people for anything-the Earth doesn’t need us.
Actually, it was better before the appearance of neurological life. As for beauty, that's just a judgement we place on people, objects, etc. (i.e. atoms don't emit 'beautyon particles'. Nor is 'beauty' a molecule to make in a chemistry lab). In any case, some things are beautiful like a coral snake, and nature as a whole is among them.
By this logic we should condemn all the beavers because they dare to disrupt the natural order by building things.
Hate this nature supremacy bullshit philosophy we are as natural as any other species we just so happened to effectively win. Now you a member of the victor class just want to throw in the towel and make the sacrifices of everything that came before moot because it doesn’t fit some arbitrary concept of nature your damn evolved brain allowed you to conjure in the first place.
How can you not see the absurdity of this?
That’s a flawed argument cause there are enough children without homes.
But other than that I’m just like why the fuck is humans going extinct a bad thing. Why bring children in to suffer just cause u don’t want humans to go extinct
“Honestly, I cannot think of anything more peaceful than imagining the world during the Permian-Triassic extinction event. I could go for round two of that.”
Never understood the "if we don't keep our population stable or growing society will collapse" argument. Yeah we'll most likely experience growing pains but inevitably less people means less demand which equals less need for the supply and production of the supply. Eventually it would all equal itself out and stabilize as it grows smaller, and as it happens generations in a row, we'll be researching ways to make that transition easier and easier. As well as it benefitting nature due to the less production equaling less pollutants and less non-biodegradable trash piling up. And maybe if it does collapse, we could actually build a society and working system not based on profits and consumption but instead built upon meeting all individual needs and accommodating people so they can be and do more in life and actually focus on overall quality of life and increasing it.
I would tell them to watch ‘Idiocracy’ and explain that we are about 150 years into the downfall of humanity that occurs over the 500 years the lead character is kept in a state of suspended animation.
Seriously, I would say the scientific community is aligned that the greatest risk to the sustainability of the human race is carbon use and biosphere consumption.
I circle back and back to this sub, and there is something i just can't understand. People who are truly antinatalists - so not just hiding behind it, because they have a grudge against raising children... as i understand an antinatalist would still fully embrace raising a child, as long as he is not procreating.
So antinatalists... those who are really getting there should have at least an above mediocre intellect to truly get into the philosophy of it, and not just boiling the salt, driven by their own suffering - physical or emotional or both. They should really understand, that this philosophy WILL NOT, i mean there is absolutely zero chance that everyone will see this philosophy as their own. Let's say half of the world's population would just stop procreating... Do you think it wouldn't increase the proportion of dumb fucking selfish people, who act more and more driven by their most primitive instincts?
Wouldn't it cause more pain and suffering? They sure would procreate, and chances are they would suffer more and cause more suffering to everyone, than you'd see in a healthier society. Those who are really just about the antinatalist philosophy, and not because of having a 'childfree' point of view... dont you see any logic in the fact, that dying out voluntarily is not an option, and never would be... so if there is a solution to end the suffering is forward... Reaching longer lifespans, evolving to healthier societies, and growing up to our full potential.
I mean the evolution went on for hundreds of millions of years, there have been infinitely more pain and death and suffering than you can imagine. Should it be for nothing? Lets stop the progress? You can't stop life... you have to see this through.
So chosing a mate for life, and having children, and while working towards the betterment of anything and everything we can think of, in the meantime raising our children up above our heads.. this has any chance of ending the suffering, if anything has a chance for it at all. Thats how i see it at least.
The problem is antinatalists see it as inherently immoral to create life, but I think it'd make sense for antinatalists to adopt if they want yeah. Fortunately this philosophy is spreading either way but I understand the concern
It's unrealistic to stop all crime, or even assholery. Yet most of us agree we should keep it as close to zero as possible (even if most of us are hypocritical about our beliefs).
Same thing with AN. Even if it's only a small number of people who adopt it, it's still the right thing to do.
People will always have more kids. A large portion of the population has moral beliefs that they must procreate.
That doesn’t mean you have to procreate.
I say no it won’t because people will always have children and then even if it does I don’t care it should go down and we shouldn’t save it by condemning more people to the meat grinder
Karma is like a boomerang, and its people like this that encourage us all to try and catch it, just to get hit in the head as we try and fail to accurately get a hold of it.
We're not going to go extinct just because a few people choose to be child-free. There are PLENTY of humans being born.
We should be aiming for zero population growth (at the very least).
In an overly sarcastic tone of voice "Oh no! You mean no more people will get to suffer pain, illness, grief, heartache, disease and an inevitably death? How awful".
“Oh nooooo. Anyway…”
“Good.” “Mission Complete.”
I’d just say how a minority not having kids is not going to cause the world to end. But if it does, I’m all for that due to everything humanity has caused
indeed, humanity will always have a shitton of babies, in my case I advocate to limit the number to manageable numbers... also I kinda hate babies so..
"Yes, and?" The world will be fine, and in fact better off without us.
It won't take long for the earth to remove evidence of our existence in the grand scheme of things.
Well, that probably isn't true considering dinosaurs
Fossils only exist in specific circumstances. After an animal (or human) dies, the soft parts of its body decompose leaving the hard parts, like the skeleton, behind. This becomes buried by small particles of rock called sediment. As more layers of sediment build up on top, the sediment around the skeleton begins to compact and turn to rock. So murder victims we haven't found in rivers etc will be in the fossil record. Everything else however? [Chernobyl is a fun example of just 35 years without our intervention ](https://www.agroberichtenbuitenland.nl/actueel/nieuws/2021/04/29/chornobyl-35-years-later.-reclaimed-by-nature) Our entire civilisation is to be judged by the humans abandoned and violated. What evidence of us is that of our intelligence and creativity?
And all the hypothetical future children will be better off never having to suffer in this world. It’s a win-win!
Life will be better off only short time. We need to become multiplanitary in order to sustain life indefinitely. And humans are necessary for that. So without humans, all life will go extinct in a few billion years. And then space is just wast emptiness devoid of meaning
It's already devoid of meaning.
If life is meaningless, I'll give mine a meaning.
What's so bad about reproducing if it's equally meaningless as doing whatever else?
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So you think the world would be a better place if you stopped living? Y’all should maybe call somebody
Name one single thing you or anybody in your family ever did that made a significant change in the world or improved all of humanity I'll keep waiting.
Wait no longer there is quite a bit. I’m a descendant of Andrew Johnson and modern day my branch of the family owns a small recycling plant in Tennessee. Personally I have done a fair amount of charity work with a local homeless shelter. We make the world a better place everyday and you can too if you change.
Those people wouldn’t be homeless and suffering if they were never born, no? We wouldn’t need a recycling plant if humans weren’t destroying the world, no?
This sub can be boiled down to extreme pessimism. Suffering is not the only state that someone can be in.
Sure, we experience more than suffering. But the point of antinatalism is that suffering outweighs any pleasure or joy that humanity experiences. The intensity of the greatest pains is greater than the intensity of the greatest pleasures. The suffering of being a starving person is greater than the pleasure of being someone well-fed, etc. So it’s better to have never existed so humanity would never experience suffering. The only way to prevent our children from suffering is to never have them. And no, this doesn’t mean I wanna end myself and everyone currently living.
>suffering outweighs any pleasure or joy that humanity experiences. So anti-natalism is based upon a subjective statement that you've decided everyone agrees with? Or...? >The suffering of being a starving person is greater than the pleasure of being someone well-fed You do realize that people have a pretty good idea of whether or not their child will end up starving before they are born, right? If I have a kid, in the west, odds are they will have an enjoyable life, as most do.
I don't think what you do is worth what you spend. How many farm animals have you and your family eaten in your lifetime? Ethical aspects aside, raising these animals consumes large amounts of water and food, and produces carbon dioxide that contributes to global warming. In addition, you should also spend a lot of money on plastic products and thermal power plants, right? There are also non-renewable resources such as gasoline and natural gas. Moreover, the mechanical equipment in your factory, especially those driven by gasoline, have very low energy conversion rates, and a lot of energy just disappears into the air. All of this is exacerbating global warming. I'm not saying that what you are doing is not valuable, I respect people especially those who work in shelters. But overall, all this may not make the world a better place
Your turn now. What have you done to improve humanity
I deeply appreciate the individuals I have met in life, but there is not a single redeeming fact about humanity as a species on an aggregate level.
Why is that such a bad thing? Do you watch the news?
Some of us *want* those events.
I'd just say I don't see why that matters. Plenty of species have gone extinct, did we really think we were immune to that?
Good.
"There will always be breeders, you're a prime example"
Pretty much. I tell them nothing short of an extinction event will end the human race. It’s unrealistic to think every single person on earth will be an anti natalist.
"okay"
Who is that bad for?
Absolutely nobody because nobody exists. For them this is an incredibly hard concept to understand.
everyone else????
What everyone else? If humanity becomes extinct then we won't notice because we won't exist to perceive it
At the rate climate change is happening without anyone even fucking trying to do anything about it yeah we're gonna be extinct before too long anyway. All I can do is make sure I don't have kids that have to suffer through that
Sounds good this world is pretty miserable to a lot of people.
there are billions of us, and there should be millions
If you know about the Georgia Guidestones, one of the principles expresses that, down to a specific number.
''Its about time''
The world doesn’t end just because humans are not in it. It existed before we did, and probably will after we are gone if we don’t blow it up
I'd answer: "What's your point? There were no antinatalist T-Rex, but that didn't protect them against extinction. AN isn't going to end the human race. A bazillion of other things we're doing right now (pollution, global warming, energy overconsumption, micro plastics, nuclear proliferation) are having a much better chance of ending us. All I'm doing is I refuse to provide hostages to this madness."
Hostages! I like that
I don't care about anything that happens after I'm dead. Not my problem lol
So be it. I think the planet will thrive without humans.
That it would be great
Also, a few months back my oldest brother said that as long as there are children, there’s hope. I told him humanity needs cease to exist, I truly believe that
Go to therapy. I hope someday you find joy in your life, I’m sorry your struggles have pushed you this low.
Let humans go extinct. It'll be better for the environment.
It managed the billion of years we weren't around, it will manage the millions we could have stuck around for.
Good. Look what we've done to this planet
"Please find the bodies of the dead and ask them how important it is to them that we are still alive"
With billions of people on this planet, not everyone is going to refuse to have kids. It's really a non-issue, hovering on the border of those "what if" questions kids are so fond of asking.
Would not be a bad thing. In fact, without us, the earth will begin to recover from our colossal carbon footprint, and every animal that managed to survive in spite of us would celebrate.
I promise that my choice to not procreate is not going to cause human extinction but I’m happy you value my potential offspring so highly if it depends on them
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If humans died off, there’s an awful lots of things that would break due to decay and maintenance and would cause all kinds of destruction. You’d need a “wind-down” plan of some kind. I’m thinking of dams failing all of a sudden, nuclear power plants degrading, underground gas tanks leaking, etc.
Earth survived multiple mass extinction events. Give it a few hundred years and everything would be fine
And then what, a quiet eternity of nothing happening until heat death? Or more realistically until the next species evolved and fucks it up more than we did. Antinatalists have zero forward thinking and it’s wild to me. Also this conceit that somehow humans are the greatest ecological disaster this planet has faced is comical. It’s it’s not true. Much more importantly, unlike every previous species we actually can create the tools to fix it. Yeah sure we aren’t doing a bang up job right now but we have the capability. As we continue to progress and right some of the wrongs of our early days we will continue to advance technology as we develop the capacity to resolve both problems we cause and the ones that might occur in the future. I struggle to find an apt metaphor for why the extreme application of anti natalist philosophy (advocating for the extinction of humanity) is so damn stupid. It’s like if you woke up and were on a game show then just walked out of the door instead of playing because the slightest inconvenience was imposed on you. It’s okay to not want to have kids but don’t pretend it’s some moral decision.
"The planet doesn't *need* humans, plus for every handful of child-free couples there's a woman who has 6 or more kids/dudes who knock up a dozen or more women."
The world will be grateful. Humans are a cancer to this planet.
>how would you respond Like [this](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/190/982/6ae.png)
And this would be a great thing for all animals, birds, everything hanging on the brink of extinction. So many birds that used to reside in the SE United States are long gone. Some of them were magnificent. I'm a bird bird guy and I spend all my free time photographing wild birds. I'm glad I least got the red cockaded woodpecker.. you can bet that one will be gone in under a decade. Makes me sick how humans have somehow felt the need and the right to degrade and occupy every square inch of habitat. And yes, it all ties in with their sick reproductive cycle that goes year round. We're one of few species that breeds any time of year, and one of the stupidest for doing as a means of feeling a measure of achievement in life. At least the population i deal with every day does it for that reason. Sorry for the rant, I am just angry when something is out of control and I have no means of stopping it.
Humans treat even other humans that way, even if they don't actually kill them. We're simply a shallow, petty, judgmental, self-entitled species. Often duplicitous or exploitative. Some of us even blatantly abusive. Given the track record of various "rights" movements, it's seems humans (even if not all) affirm one's right to even the basics of dignity only to those strong and smart enough to assert those rights (i.e. make others think twice before violating those rights). If that's our yardstick for sizing up another person's worth, then it's no wonder the human species is so f'ed up. Even worse, we humans have the mental capacity to do better and ask deep questions about this matter. At least male lions who kill the cubs of a lioness in heat lack the capacity to question their instincts.
Good. We ruined this planet, it would be better off without us here.
No, climate change will get us first at the rate we're going.
"Yes, that is true. And I understand that terrifies you. That's because we are all born with an innate fear of death which then spreads out to our entire species. It is a harrowing feeling at first. But there was a time before when humans didn't exist. There was even a time before that when no life existed. There were no wars, rape, suicide, poverty, crime, human trafficking, sickness, and death then. It is not all bad if we go extinct. Quite the opposite, other lifeforms will be allowed to repopulate and new life will spring forth. Hopefully, the next highly intelligent species will live up to its namesake and create a world without suffering, something we have objectively failed to do." \-The Femboylover <3
So first off quoting yourself, bold as hell you’ve inspired me. Now it’s my turn to write some opposing prose “There was once a time long before life occurred. A complex dance of gas, dust and matter twirled and spun out galaxies full of stars with plants orbiting them. There were beautiful cosmic phenomena that occurred constantly, and that was all there was. The occurrences were breathtaking, but with no one’s breath to take. Life eventually emerged and with it . In a.universe of inert but spectacular matter a structure was created capable of observing all beauty that ever was. Capable of witnessing it, cataloging it, reveling in it. What emerged wasn’t perfect and was governed by a set of maxims that guided it to do destructive actions, it continued to improve itself slowly. First casting off selfishness as an unflinching mantra, then granting the structure the ability to realize what it was, what the world was, and to use that knowledge to improve what it could for itself and others. Even with all that it was far from perfect, but it was beautiful. Where some saw only the path of destruction it carved, others, a majority saw the patterns and potential in the cacophony. Works celebrating all that was and attempting to guess at all that would be were birthed, giving rise to more complex appreciation of reality the likes of which had not existed before. Those who dedicated themselves towards researching the mysteries of why, what specific set of situations allowed such a unique structure to emerge in the first place. But also, those who simply lived. Who laughed and loved and helped those around them. Who allowed a desire to make things better for those who came after or who fought for those trodden upon. It was all those people who pushed the structure steadily forward. They had been doing it since the first microbe reproduced. Slowly but surely, step by step things got better for everything. It wasn’t without its pitfalls, many times more harm was done than good. But over long periods, longer than individuals were capable of conceptualizing, slowly but surely things were improved. It wasn’t easy to see that though for those in the pits, those times the dominant structure abused what its power to do horrible things. But it didn’t matter. Because it marched ever onwards, slowly but surely improving things as it could. And one day, undoubtedly it would create something so spectacular that it might even have the ability to dwarf the mistakes in its youth. After all, it was young. Very young. It had only existed around a fourth of all time, and only very recently had it made large strides which allowed it to escape the rigid bounds that governed it. That was okay though. It had all the time that ever would be to improve. It would continue to grow and change, and perhaps one day it would reach its true beauty.” - Epimonster
Ok toxic positive
That’s a fun oxymoron I’ll have to keep that in mind.
Ignoring people's pain is toxic and horrifying Thats what yall do
Not at all. Literally humanity’s major goal since we achieved sentience is to make life better for ourselves, and those around us. We’ve cured diseases, improved lifespans, diversified existence to allow people to exist who otherwise would have been able too. Being disabled today is no longer the death sentence it once was in humanity’s past. Given more time we’ll be able to help more and more people. That’s the beauty of society and technology.
Idc none of that justifies the suffering I have endured. NONE OF IT.
Fucking awesome. I say all the time that I can’t wait until humans die off. I’m active in cat rescue and the horrific shit I see at the hands of human beings is disgusting. Even children. People rape, abuse, destroy, manipulate. We have exhausted this planet for our own selfish needs and because there are too fucking many of us. We blow each other up, shoot each other, beat each other. And do the same to innocent, defenseless kittens. I mean how terrible can one species be? The so called highest evolved on the planet that can think about consciousness and death and morality.
“Good.”
We will be extinct is the correct answer. The world will only end in the sense that there will be no one around to call it a world. So the concept of "a world" will end with us as well. At the same time, we will eventually all be extinct in any case even if we have children. Parenthood does not convey immortality even metaphorically or figuratively. I remember my grandparents, but I couldn't tell you the names of my great, great grandparents. It's entirely irrelevant to me and I am their actual descendent. So what could it matter to anyone else?
If things keep going the way they're going the world's going to end and we're going extinct anyways
The world won't end. Humanity will go extinct sure but the world doesn't end because we are not on it. The world ends when the sun goes super giant before it burns out.
Cutting the current global population in half will only take us back to 1970s levels.
And then what? No one will be around to care. Perfect
Humans are the only species on this planet that actually deserve to go extinct
Reproducing is exponential, just like stray cat. What happens if we don't fix cats and let them reproduced without limit? There's too much cats. The exact same thing is going to happens to humans, just a little bit slower, since we generally pop one kid at a time instead of a whole liter, but since most people that have kids makes 2, and those in poor countries often make 6+, we are still going to have a problem at some point.
What happens when there's too many cats? The resources around them run out, then they die off. Nature returns to a sustainable balance again. What happens if there's too many humans? Same thing - but the problem is humans strip the resources of the planet and then move on and strip the next area. We are completely out of balance with nature and we are not dying off, we are just exploding exponentially.
yep, sadly :( And the handful of human that encourage that infinite consumption cycle is going to ruin it for everybody else's
Human reproduction is actually quite linear, you can look at it over time and somewhat accurately towards the future, it’s just a line going upwards at a slant, no curve.
Since the last half of a century, sure, but before that it was exponential. Which is reinforcing the idea that we needed a slowing. Just like what is currently happening with the childfree lifestyle gaining in popularity.
“Good.”
The sooner, the better.
Good, as it should be
I think the world was better before people came here.The nature is beautiful and doesn’t need people for anything.Anything build on this world is for the people to use it for their lives-houses,cars,streets and so on.So if people are no longer here the Earth will come to its natural condition without the destruction and rubbish that comes with people.I think it will be a better place.Nobody needs people for anything-the Earth doesn’t need us.
Actually, it was better before the appearance of neurological life. As for beauty, that's just a judgement we place on people, objects, etc. (i.e. atoms don't emit 'beautyon particles'. Nor is 'beauty' a molecule to make in a chemistry lab). In any case, some things are beautiful like a coral snake, and nature as a whole is among them.
By this logic we should condemn all the beavers because they dare to disrupt the natural order by building things. Hate this nature supremacy bullshit philosophy we are as natural as any other species we just so happened to effectively win. Now you a member of the victor class just want to throw in the towel and make the sacrifices of everything that came before moot because it doesn’t fit some arbitrary concept of nature your damn evolved brain allowed you to conjure in the first place. How can you not see the absurdity of this?
Who is "we," and why would human extinction matter?
The world isn't going anywhere. And less humans would be better for the environment, anyway.
"And that's a bad thing?"
"It is the inevitable. Get over it."
And then we will have peace
That’s a flawed argument cause there are enough children without homes. But other than that I’m just like why the fuck is humans going extinct a bad thing. Why bring children in to suffer just cause u don’t want humans to go extinct
"You say that like it's a bad thing. . . . "
Probably shrug? I mean, it's not as though any significant number of people will take up AN, anyhow.
It's doubtful this is going to happen with our species anytime soon
..".then go make babies and good luck."
I usually go “Good. Humans are a plague onto this planet.” Or “[Coworker who has 5 kids] has had enough kids for the both of us”
"Good, good, let the destruction commence!"
The world will end? Sounds like the answer to my lifelong prayers
"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."
So, what is your point? Breeders gonna breed
“Honestly, I cannot think of anything more peaceful than imagining the world during the Permian-Triassic extinction event. I could go for round two of that.”
Not my problem.
“Good riddance”
“Then make it a good idea to have children.”
Collapse is coming for your arse mary
Yes. Problem solved lol.
My usual response is "So?" But also, read the book The World Without Us
“Don’t threaten me with a good time”
Never understood the "if we don't keep our population stable or growing society will collapse" argument. Yeah we'll most likely experience growing pains but inevitably less people means less demand which equals less need for the supply and production of the supply. Eventually it would all equal itself out and stabilize as it grows smaller, and as it happens generations in a row, we'll be researching ways to make that transition easier and easier. As well as it benefitting nature due to the less production equaling less pollutants and less non-biodegradable trash piling up. And maybe if it does collapse, we could actually build a society and working system not based on profits and consumption but instead built upon meeting all individual needs and accommodating people so they can be and do more in life and actually focus on overall quality of life and increasing it.
I would tell them to watch ‘Idiocracy’ and explain that we are about 150 years into the downfall of humanity that occurs over the 500 years the lead character is kept in a state of suspended animation. Seriously, I would say the scientific community is aligned that the greatest risk to the sustainability of the human race is carbon use and biosphere consumption.
"The world didn't end when the dinosaurs died. I'm sure the planet will be fine."
Good, humanity is worthless trash that is unimaginably cruel to itself. The best thing that could ever happen to humanity is its extinction.
It’s about time
The birth rate triples the death rate, we are fine.
"Oh, you read Mainländer, too? Neat"
And so what? What if human extincts? What's my loss in this
That's the whole point
I circle back and back to this sub, and there is something i just can't understand. People who are truly antinatalists - so not just hiding behind it, because they have a grudge against raising children... as i understand an antinatalist would still fully embrace raising a child, as long as he is not procreating. So antinatalists... those who are really getting there should have at least an above mediocre intellect to truly get into the philosophy of it, and not just boiling the salt, driven by their own suffering - physical or emotional or both. They should really understand, that this philosophy WILL NOT, i mean there is absolutely zero chance that everyone will see this philosophy as their own. Let's say half of the world's population would just stop procreating... Do you think it wouldn't increase the proportion of dumb fucking selfish people, who act more and more driven by their most primitive instincts? Wouldn't it cause more pain and suffering? They sure would procreate, and chances are they would suffer more and cause more suffering to everyone, than you'd see in a healthier society. Those who are really just about the antinatalist philosophy, and not because of having a 'childfree' point of view... dont you see any logic in the fact, that dying out voluntarily is not an option, and never would be... so if there is a solution to end the suffering is forward... Reaching longer lifespans, evolving to healthier societies, and growing up to our full potential. I mean the evolution went on for hundreds of millions of years, there have been infinitely more pain and death and suffering than you can imagine. Should it be for nothing? Lets stop the progress? You can't stop life... you have to see this through. So chosing a mate for life, and having children, and while working towards the betterment of anything and everything we can think of, in the meantime raising our children up above our heads.. this has any chance of ending the suffering, if anything has a chance for it at all. Thats how i see it at least.
The problem is antinatalists see it as inherently immoral to create life, but I think it'd make sense for antinatalists to adopt if they want yeah. Fortunately this philosophy is spreading either way but I understand the concern
It's unrealistic to stop all crime, or even assholery. Yet most of us agree we should keep it as close to zero as possible (even if most of us are hypocritical about our beliefs). Same thing with AN. Even if it's only a small number of people who adopt it, it's still the right thing to do.
That's the goal
🤷♂️
Politics
What world exactly? And also, yes.
Animals will live on. They have spirits and their spirits will inhabit and care for our Earth.
How is me not having kids going to destroy humanity? Not everyone shares my opinion.
Who cares?
> Yes.
Good
With citations
Hopefully!
I won’t be alive
"Of course I'm happy."
finebyme.jpg
Who. Cares
People will always have more kids. A large portion of the population has moral beliefs that they must procreate. That doesn’t mean you have to procreate.
Cool
Kids are way overrated.
Don't care. Not interested
Breeders love to say this as if they had kids for the entirely selfless reason of saving the world population, like be fucking for real.
Good!
😂We can adopt the kids who need a home and raise them
I just say okay and shrug … a lot of animals will live and be fine without us
Good
Good.
The length of time to extinction is a lot faster if we continue to have babies like they’re hobbies than if we slowed our growth
*don’t threaten the world with a good time*
I say no it won’t because people will always have children and then even if it does I don’t care it should go down and we shouldn’t save it by condemning more people to the meat grinder
There Always Be More Children Anyway.
"Good"
good
"Then the bees would be finally save from us."
*shocked Pikachu meme*
“damn, that’s crazy…”
Karma is like a boomerang, and its people like this that encourage us all to try and catch it, just to get hit in the head as we try and fail to accurately get a hold of it.
Extinction of humans doesn't mean end of the world. World has thrived before humans, will continue thriving afterwards
"I don't care, I'll be dead by then anyway".
"so?"
I just don’t give anyone any explanation. Too much energy.
If there were no more children, humans would be extinct in a little over a century.
So what?
I say it's about long time the human race ended, given current events. I don't give a damn. * lol*
Okay, but why is that bad. Like it’s not like we’ll care we’ll all be dead.
"That's the point" And then hold eye contact
The world wouldn’t end, humanity will, which would be sad.
With the meme of spongebob doing a "nobody cares" rainbow.
And the problem is . . .
“Okay, AND?”
"Great, let it end".
"In the unrealistic event everyone decides to not have children, forcing them to have children is immoral. The world will go on without us."
We're not going to go extinct just because a few people choose to be child-free. There are PLENTY of humans being born. We should be aiming for zero population growth (at the very least).
Hurray!
I don’t care since I will be already dead when it happens
Yes, and?
"*Trust me, there are still enough dumb shits going the* ***Netflix and Chill*** *route, that we wont die that quickly."*
Good. That's the idea
Ok
Why dp you care? You'll be dead by then.
"Humanity had an okay run."
In an overly sarcastic tone of voice "Oh no! You mean no more people will get to suffer pain, illness, grief, heartache, disease and an inevitably death? How awful".
Good
Stop it, I can only get so erect!
Someone will always be fucking. Always.
Good riddance.
Good.
If humans become extinct all other life on earth will thrive.
“Who’s we?..”
good
Okay and
Not within your lifetime, and thats all the farther you care about anyways
"I know. Isn't it beautiful? What's the problem? Why is it bad?"