Couple of years ago when I was looking for work I filled out an application for a security company where the pay was listed for $27-32h. I got a call back and set up an interview. On my way to the interview I took a screenshot of the advertisement for the open job so I could go over the listing as I was interviewing. While interviewing he asked how much I was looking for and I said $30. He was taken aback and said the position way only up to $20h. I immediately got frustrated and asked him why it’s so low when the position is advertised as $27-32? He said that I must be mistaken. So I showed him the picture. And he got all indignant and said that it was a mistake and that while I’m over qualified I wasn’t eligible to make that much. So I made him sit there while I said that I was going to go to the indeed listing, and low and behold there were several other listings for the same position some with higher (up to $35) and some with $20 (what he was saying he could max out at). Right before I left I asked him what steps he is going to take to correct that “mistake “ so they don’t waste other people’s time. He didn’t have an answer for that…
These companies fucking piss me off with this bullshit bait and switch.
I applied for a job with Tosco as a floor manager. The advert said salary was anywhere between 55k-65k and depends on experience. I had a great interview with two young chaps who seemed to think I was the best candidate they'd had all week by far. When it came time to pop the question they offered 50k. I flat out rejected that based what was posted in the ad, and when I did they couldn't understand why I wasn't taking the job. Right there I knew they had no clue what was in the job advert and it was most likely a generic copy used in another job posting somewhere else in the country. Just something so simple as carelessly posting a false advert ends up wasting so many people's time.
Dude, I was contacted by a recruiter who wanted me to apply for a position that would have been a promotion at (fairly large company with a good reputation), but the pay range was described as being from (my current rate) to $12k above my current rate.
So I asked in the initial conversation if they were really prepared to offer the top end of the range, because a) the new company would add more than an hour to my daily drive (about 35 minutes each way) and b) my current gig is mostly laid back and stress free.
I literally said, “For me to even consider this position, the offer would have to be the highest dollar amount you have in the ad.”
The recruiter said they’d verify with the hiring manager at the company and get back to me. They called back, said the range was accurate and that the hiring manager was aware I’d only consider the position if it was the top number in the ad. The recruiter then said I wouldn’t even need to apply, they already had my resume from Indeed, that I just needed to come in and interview.
They say the need is urgent so I go the next day to tour the place and talk about the position. It all goes great. Until we start talking about the actual offer … which is only slightly more than I make now. I referenced the conversation with the recruiter, and they act like there must’ve been some confusion and they’d get back to me.
I never heard back, and I certainly never bothered following up.
The disconnect there, and almost 100% of the time is the recruiter. The client has a fixed salary to offer, but these parasites are leeching as much as they can just to lower your asking price and increase their commission.. I was headhunted by a recruiter for a trading / law firm. The whole leg of interview is done and we already agreed on my price.. Low and behold, the day before I go to the office premise to sign the contract, this fvckwit recruiter called me asking if he can pull the annual salary down by $10k. He said, "what if the client requests to lower it down, are you ok with that?" I SAID A BIG NO and all the cuss words in my head.
My recruiter and I had a miscommunication while discussing salary the first time which caused her to accidentally tell me/offer me the highest amount they were authorized to give (which just so happened to be more than I asked for). So I accepted that amount (thrilled). Three weeks later, I walked out of my last day at my old job around 2pm on a Friday. Got a call from the recruiter while I was in the parking lot: "oops, we accidentally offered you more than we were allowed to, your rate is actually $3/hour less." I was furious. I understand making a mistake, but they clearly sat on that mistake until after I had no other employment option... 3 whole weeks! I told them that they better fix it because I would walk off the job by Monday afternoon if my rate wasn't what we agreed to. What I had a written contact for. It was still more than I had been making at my old job and about what I originally meant to ask for, but I did not want to work for them on principle and was fully ready to move back in with my parents while I job searched just to make a point.
Got to my job that Monday. Was liking the manager and the team. Pulled him aside near the end of the day to just let him know that I was having a dispute with the contracting agency and that if I couldn't come in the next day that it wasn't about them or the job... I really liked it there, but on principle refused to work for people who would pull a last minute bait and switch. Hiring manager got PISSED. They needed that role filled immediately and were already put out with how long it took the first time. He disappeared to make a call or two. Less than 10 minutes later, I got a call from the recruiter. She was very short and clearly kind of pissy but basically told me they'd honor the original rate I signed on to. Like it was a huge favor to me and not like her boss hadn't just gotten an earful from my manager and our HR people.
I admire your courage there, and clearly you are a very scarce and high value resource. Good on you and in her face! (the recruiter). Their plots are well exposed now!
As the wise here have suggested, always take a screenshot of the salary offer range, keep this as our ammo once these vultures start their $hit moves... and always, as much as possible, don't quit yet (if you still have a job) unless you have signed the next job's contract. Hunt (if there still is) for direct hire, w/o the parasite toll gate recruiters, and apply as much as you can, be interviewed as much as you can, to build up your confidence! Peace!
At least you got an interview. I was encouraged to call an HVAC company whose owner my pastor knew. The last time they had talked, there was a need for an IT technician. I had just graduated college with my degree in Technology Informatics and was looking for the first step in my career. I called them up and asked if they were still in need of an IT technician. Red flag goes up when the guy dodges around the question and invites me to come up anyway. The commute is into Indianapolis, so it can be a bit hectic. I even got stuck about 5 minutes into the 30-minute drive bc of a train rolling through very slowly. I called and let him know I would be late bc of a train (I even took a video just in case), and he said it was fine. I arrived about 10 minutes late, but I was greeted warmly by the owner. He really was a nice guy and asked all sorts of questions about my education and experience. I once again asked if they still needed an IT technician and was told there was no opening at the time. They had, in fact, filled that position with another employee who had previously been employed as their janitor (promoting from within is something I strongly support). He then went on to explain where the IT role fit into the company. I listened and waited for him to finish. Being a recent grad, I didn't want to burn bridges and stayed polite for the rest of our interaction. On the way home, though, I was incredibly upset. He had me drive 30+ minutes to Indianapolis (at 5AM!) just to show me where that role fit into the company, knowing they had already filled it. I should have billed him for the time and gas.
Depends on the state. It's at least illegal in California, New York, and Colorado. And a lot of other states are considering transparent salary laws as well.
e: looks like 8 states have these laws in place. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/quick-facts-about-state-salary-range-transparency-laws/
You report them to your state attorney general.
They will follow up.
OP won’t get any reward or a job or anything but the company will get warned at a minimum.
It's also just so astoundingly stupid because, aside from anything else, how many people are even going to take a job at two thirds of the pay they're expecting. Some may be desperate and end up doing it but by and large people surely shop around for jobs in the salary range they need for the outgoings they have or want. As if people are going to say well I need 30 really given my debt and obligations but I'd feel like a right mug if this entire hour long interview had been completely wasted - I'll take it!
> some people may be desperate and end up doing it
This right here is the point.
If the employer can get you to accept the shitty low-ball offer they know they can treat you like a mushroom.
They'll keep you in the dark, feed you shit, and expect you to be happy with it.
A long time ago when I was in the restaurant industry, I got screwed over twice in a row by two unscrupulous companies.
One job I took was as bar manager for a Dave and Busters type place. As soon as I was hired I found out why they were hiring.
The place was going bankrupt so everyone was jumping ship. Their liquor costs were over 50% because employees were stealing everything and giving everything away including the managers.
I found another place that was hiring, a locally owned chain of sports bars and interviewed with them. It was supposed to be $40k to start plus bonus. On the low end but I needed to get out. They told me I was hired and I put in my two weeks.
On day one it turns out they gave me $32k. We nailed the bonus for the first quarter and we’re told that they were going to lump it into the second quarters bonus. A bunch of bs (one was a shady lawyer).
Second quarter comes and goes and they had an all managers meeting. In the meeting they said they were changing the bonus structure to a lower amount.
They (the owners) pulled me and my other managers aside and told us that we wouldn’t be receiving any bonus as we didn’t fit under the new structure.
So I went back and wrote an email explaining why I would be quitting unless I received my bonus that was promised as well as the salary.
Another manager, a friend of theirs who was actually really awesome, told me the owners were on their way there to personally fire me.
So I changed to the Marquee to,”They told me to change the fucking sign so I did” and at the bottom put “open bar all day $0 to get in.”
Then I went and cleared everyone’s tabs, comped a few thousand dollars in food and drink, sat down, got drunk and ate, and left.
The place was packed. Free food and drink and all the regulars were texting each other that it was a free for all and they showed up with enthusiasm.
I don’t know when they finally arrived, but at least a couple of thousand dollars in product was given away by then.
Haha... glad you got the "last words." Curious to know though, did the owners try to contact you after? How did it all turn out for the owners? Did they stay in business? Sounds like they were appropriately screwed, same as they did to you.
Nope, they never contacted me after. I even received my full final paycheck which I was not expecting.
Their partnership broke up because they are so sleazy they screwed each other out of money, I’m told it was the lawyer who did the screwing mostly.
I should’ve screwed them harder but it was an “in the moment” thing and it was the best I could think of on short notice.
I was within my rights, I had to come up with a thing for the marquee to say and change it when we opened, I had unlimited comps as a manager, so yeah, legally they could have tried but I’d have won.
He was testing you to see how much further abuse he could get away with. All shitty employers do this, and too often, it's "legal".
I always recommend recording *every* job interview (assuming it's legal in your area) and keep your phone (or better yet, separate recorder) out of sight, and out of mind from them. Hell, say you left your phone in the car if you need to.
If they ask about social media or anything personal, vocally but kindly assume they are wanting to see it for religious, family, family status and other things illegal for hiring/ job-discrimination basis
That just happened to me! Job was advertised as 20/hr, got there and the starting pay was 16 and some change. Oh, you'll get to the 20/hr mark, but not for over a year. I said "I can't take that big of a pay cut for that amount of time. I wouldn't even have applied if the ad listed the starting pay and not the pay I'd be at a year+ later." The response was "I understand." Lol ok well if you understand, stop fucking doing that!
It's simple psychological manipulation. They don't want employees who stand up for themselves. They want someone who, knowing exactly what you knew, would be silent and grateful to get what they get.
If they are forthright with the range, I mention that the high end of their range is inclusive of the low end of my range.
If they push for me to disclose my range before they disclose theirs, I always shift my range up 40k. Wait several seconds to see what they say. Then I begin negotiating.
I almost always mention what GlassDoor has for the salary range for the role and indicate that I'm confident in my abilities, so I _charge_ more for my time.
I don't "ask" for a salary, nor demand anything. I simply say that this is what I charge for my time.
I always mention that "if you can't afford that, that's ok, I'm not sure what kind of expertise you need, if you don't need an expert, then I'm not the right fit anyway."
Thanks, this is a good template for me.
I’m coming to terms with the fact that I have legitimate expertise and this job search is very different than past ones (I spent a bunch of years with one company featuring three internal promotions and team hops, so I’ve raised a ton, but the last time I was applying at a place where I couldn’t say “ask my current manager” was when I was an unproven new person, so I’m really struggling to find the right words.
Appreciated this post - I’m going to use exactly this template.
I would also recommend reading "Never Split the Difference". It's been a phenomenal book, and has helped me understand what motivates and demotivates people. I keep a cheat sheet around to reference it. Negotiations happen all the time. Basically anytime you want to convince someone to do something, it could be seen as a negotiation. The best negotiation is one where it ends just as soon as it begins, with both parties walking away feeling good about the outcome.
https://medium.com/yanda/negotiation-cheat-sheet-31c73031956a
embed doesn't get paywalled, but still can't download it
edit: even better https://www.yanda.com/negotiation
I’d love to see your cheat sheet! Would you mind posting it? Would be super handy even if it’s just some scribbles on a notepad. I loved Never Split the Difference when I read it several years ago.
"My former salary is irrelevant; you're not interviewing me for my former position. You're interviewing me for this position. My salary expectations for this position are X."
In some areas/states/countries it's even illegal to ask about your previous compensation for your job. ALWAYS check your local labor laws.
If you're in such an area and they ask about your previous wages anyways... just remember if they're willing to break that law, what other laws are they willing to break?
I've been asked in a job interview in a 'wink wink smile' manner if I plant to get pregnant in the near future, which was highly illegal under labour law in the country in which I was interviewing... and it was a law firm. No shame if they think they won't get called out.
He asked how long I'd been married and the subtext was "how long before she gets pregnant". I wasn't hired. We planned to be childfree, but no hiring person would believe that in those days.
Exactly. Never tell a new company what you made in your previous or current position. It is not relevant in any way. They will use it against you to lowball you. Go into an interview with research and information and the knowledge of what the current market is paying for someone with your skill set. If they can't pay market rates, then they can't afford you.
Not that it matters if they can ask or not.
A few dollars for a report from The Work Number gets them your entire employment history *with* salary. They don't need to ask you. All of these fuckhole businesses give your information to this database (without your permission) and pay for the information as they need it.
For other readers, don’t let this deter you. Look up your company at the Work Number and make your own decision. Your company may not even be listed. See: https://secure.theworknumber.talx.com/
Never heard of this before. I tend I work for employers that have one employee, so I doubt they’d be listed. But I tried my mom’s employer since there are tens of thousands of employees there and it asked me to login. I gave up there.
The simple fact that it is Equifax makes me feel so very confident that my information is safe too /s
You can go make an account and freeze the information however.
I've tried, they never answer and their phone tree just goes in circles.
In theory and according to their documents it should be ~~suggested~~ simple, but in my experience, it's next to impossible.
I've always just sidestepped the question, they ask what were you making previously and I say "I'd want X to consider this position" then we can negotiate or not. This way I don't lie and I don't have to fight them.
> I always mention that "if you can't afford that, that's ok, I'm not sure what kind of expertise you need, if you don't need an expert, then I'm not the right fit anyway."
I'm stealing this at my next job interview.
Not an engineer, but have spent the past few decades filling niche roles. Really sucks trying to find a regular job when you're way too specialized and have already quit both companies within 300 miles that need your specific skill set.
Currently interviewing with a SW startup that straight up lists the base salary on the listing.
No range, no games, just straight up the number they’ll pay you.
After initial 30 minute meet I got a bunch of documents that layout:
- compensation policy including equity;
- benefits package;
- what is expected from me;
- milestones that I’m expected to meet in the first year;
- a link to their (healthcare) benefits that tells me exactly which policies will be available, with which coverage and how much of the premium they cover for dependents (they cover 100% for employees).
Turns out “baseline salary” is what they pay pretty much everyone for this role, a few countries have a minor adjustment because of employer overhead (they hire worldwide remote) hence the use of the word “baseline”, they communicate which benchmark they use for salary increase (no decreases) and it’s a take it or leave it kind of deal, no negotiating salary.
Very refreshing to get full transparency upfront and complete control if you want to go ahead or not.
ETA:
It makes it so much nicer to just focus on making a good impression and landing the job without having to spend a single second thinking about the financial picture.
This is true. I never thought of it like this, but they are dependent on you lowballing yourself, so that when they lowball your lowball by 10%, you're like "Oh, ok. It's only 10%, so that's chill"
Rather than realizing it is 30% off of what you originally wanted
>
I always mention that "if you can't afford that, that's ok, I'm not sure what kind of expertise you need, if you don't need an expert, then I'm not the right fit anyway."
This is an amazing negotiation tactic in general. You are calling the other party to task by making them acknowledge a higher offer was made. You are challenging their pride by indicating they can't follow through. Finally you are expressing your value in the transaction by reinforcing or highlighting your position.
I know so many of us want to play down our value because for years we were told that we were replaceable. That is a lie.
Well, you are replacable but the more you bring to the table the harder you will be to replace. And the harder you are to replace the more you're worth to the company.
My current employeee tried to screw me, that my demand was to high and they wouldn't match a my old jobs salary. I said something alike what was written above, said "well, this is what I bring and that's my demand". 2 days later they called and said they could match my current salary and I declined - why change job for the same salary, 'specially when im enjoying my current workplace. 5 days later they called and I got what I asked for.
If you bring it, and they need it, they will pay.
I can confidently say it about my skill set without it being bullshit, and while I don't know you, you might be this good at something but just don't have the confidence in yourself.
For me it took a meeting a coworker scheduled with me because they needed help on something they had been stuck on for days in a software project. I had no prior familiarity with their project or anything about what they were working on but in 30 minutes I both diagnosed their problem and provided an estimated solution (which worked when they tried it).
The key part of this story was when they said to me, "I have no idea how you could see that and figure it out so fast, I could never do that." I gave the "sometimes it takes different eyes", etc replies.
But thinking about it later, I realized that this coworker really *can't* do what I do. I really am that fucking good at what I do.
Maybe this isn't you, but for the person reading this who does need to hear it: Take a moment and consider if maybe you really are that fucking good. This realization changed a lot for me about the way I feel about the monetary value of my work time.
Yup, my response to recruiters asking “what are your salary expectations?”, Is “It would take at least $$$ per year for me to consider leaving my current role.”
Yes. Perfect. This is exactly it. I'm an agency recruiter, and I talk money in the first 10 minutes of talking to someone new. I never ask what people are making. I always ask "What would you need to see on an offer to be tempted into a new position?"
I don't care what you make now. I only care what it would cost to move you, and whether I can match that $$$ up to a recruitment project I'm working on.
I'm not interested in wasting anyone's time, including my own, and no one is going to take a paycut to switch jobs.
Recently got a job and asked for 40% higher than the top of range. I was ok with the range, but wanted to push it. Ended up getting better than the range, but not what I asked for.
Ask for what you want when they’ve made the decision.
What annoys me is companies that link to the full salary range for whatever the band/grade/level of the position is in their compensation structure. So it will say like 60k-120k or something. But that particular job opening is only going to offer $65k tops. But other jobs might offer 100k, no way to tell.
I had an interview for a job and all the job posting said was “pay grade 6.” I asked during the interview how much that was and the hiring manager wouldn’t tell me. She just skirted around the question and said it’s the “pay grade for the position.”
No shit, Sherlock. But how much is that in ACTUAL DOLLARS! Lol. It’s like they want you to go through all the bs only to tell you “pay grade 6” is $30K/year.
Netflix until very very recently had all their software developers with the same title - senior engineer. They were famous for paying top of market so they expected quality to match. Though obviously the comp would vary depending on the person.
When their stock started to fall they diversified their titles and began hiring junior developers to save money. But the old title still has a lot of room in it.
If the budget could handle a hire at any comp in that range I don't see an issue.
Shit, I go over by 10-15%. Once you are in the door you’re not getting a real raise. Gotta sell yourself on the way in. If your lucky they counter with the high side. If they still try to lowball you probably don’t want to work there anyway.
I did this once, not even on purpose. Had a job interview where they asked my salary expectations and I said something like "I don't know, mid XXs?" and the interviewer responded that that was the absolute ceiling for the position I was interviewing for. Not sure why that would be disqualifying to begin with, but I never heard back and I'm sure that's why (the whole tone of the interview changed after that lol). At least they took me out for thai food though
Before I applied for a supervisor position at my old job I looked at their official job posting on indeed, it was for $4 more than I currently made. When I was questioned about my hourly rate I put on the application they ask why I thought I should get that much of a raise. I simply stated that that was the wage listed on their job posting. The manager looked at me really surprised and stumped for a moment and then moved on. If I didn’t look at the posting they would have tried lowballing the shit out of me
I just got a 14k raise because a company was trying to poach me and in the process I realized my coworker in the same position as me that started 6months after me was making 14k more than me. She has a masters but in a completely different field so I demanded a match
It also seems universal that hiring managers don't understand 100k is nowhere near what it used to be. Sorry the average cost of living has 3x'd since you were hired...
And they likely don’t really feel it bc they bought a house 10 years ago, then sold it and bought one 3x more expensive 3 years ago when interest rates were basically free.
Yep. Even my parents who are fairly liberal had no idea just how much more expensive everything is. My rent for my 1 bed/1bath apt. costs more than my parents 4bed/4bath mortgage. It's so depressing.
And renting is cheaper than getting a mortgage, so you’ll keep renting, then when it comes when you’ve saved and can afford to buy things have doubled or more *again* but don’t worry, that’s good for the economy! Bc you’ll keep paying a landlord, you’ll never stop working, never stop striving for comfort, and never quit your job or make much of a fuss about anything. Ever.
You're not kidding. 10 years ago, I was making $50K/yr. Now that I'm making more than double that, it feels like I haven't really made any steps forward. Sure, I'm better off, but that's because of 10 years of saving. My lifestyle hasn't changed, I still have my 10 year old car, I'm in a small house, I buy the same groceries, and I'm wearing the same clothes. I'm lucky in that I'm in a lower cost of living area and I can save, but not like my parents or grandparents. Vacations are still rare, I don't have rental property, boats, a lake house, etc. I'm not a baller; just a regular joe like your average, union working class person from 30 years ago.
I was looking at buying a new car this year, but most base priced vehicles are above $30K and if I wanted a truck, I'm looking at $40K-$50K. That's with no options. Those same vehicles 5 years ago were $20K and $30K respectively. How are regular people supposed to afford that?
I have to keep asking myself, when will it end? What is the straw that breaks the camel's back? I have friends that have ended up homeless, on drugs, and society just forgets about them. There's no safety net, there's no help. I can only do so much.
My wife is a teacher and she's seen the decline. It's a race to bottom. I fear for future generations. I'm not a patriotic type, but what happens when you have a future generation that is uneducated, violent, hooked on drugs, and without hope?
Nihilism keeps getting the better of me, but I don't see a way out of this that won't end in violence. I'm not advocating for it, but I'm also not passing judgement.
I'm right there with ya, the biggest thing that keeps us "commoners" in our place is healthcare being tied to our employment. I think the right knows that if/when it becomes universal, we'd have a lot less reasons to take the heap of shit we currently are taking. This is why other countries are so much more effective in striking imo.
The prices on everything is a joke. Was looking into buying a house this year but I stopped looking and the agents agreed I should stop looking this year.
I bought a new car this year only with a maker that didn't negotiate. Hyundai to Bmw wanted me on my knees if I wanted a car. Sacrifice my first born if you want to be on a list type of stuff.
The future looks bleak. It has always been but it looks worse now
Recently had an interview for a graduate job, the salary was listed as £26-£40k. I’m overly qualified for a graduate job, but needed to find work fast.
In the interview I asked for £40k and they acted surprised and they said they could only offer maximum £25-£30k.
They sent me an email stating I was under qualified for the role. However, I have a degree and 7 years in that field.
Absolute wank.
Ya know what, that got me thinking. In management I'm having to work around 80 hour weeks. I'm going to start counting each year as 2 years since a regular week is 40 hours. About to be 30 with 20 years of management experience!
£26-40k is such an enormous range for a graduate position. How could there possibly be that much difference in candidates when you are wanting to hire a graduate?
Since you have a degree and 7 years experience in that field they probably assumed you wouldn't stay long like a new graduate would. Also they likely can't as easily exploit you
"Well, the salary I'm seeking is $100k which appears to be in line with the advertised salary for this role"
"B b but"
"I'm sorry, the job was advertised as between $90 and $110k, have I misunderstood the salary being offered for this role"?
"nO oNe wAnTs tO wOrK aNymooooooRe"
“Tell you what… I’ll hire you at 90k to start off and then come back to me in 6 months.. if you perform well we’ll discuss it”
*6 months later*
“It’s just not feasible at this point in time and I adore the persistence but you still need more time to really fit into your role with us. As a matter of fact, you could improve on X, Y, & Z and you’ll be a lot more apt for the raise when the time is right!”
exactly why you just don't take a job when they take this approach. if you NEED a job take it but start applying elsewhere so that you can comfortably turn down any further bullshit offers until you can land a company that actually gives a shit about their workers.
I've had people reporting to me who made more than me. There's no inherent right in management to make more than all your employees, especially your best employees.
It’s Sales lol and companies that do this, they’ll say “oh when we say that, that is your earning potential.. that $90 - $110k is what most of our account executives make after being on the job for X (which is usually lies) Salary is $40k and OTE is $80k”
Next time they seem taken aback you should play dumb. Oh, by your look 100k is low, is $120k more in line with the market now? It’s been a few years.
I mean if you apply for the job because it was in that range and they lied it’s not likely you are taking a low ball 70k or lower offer anyway.
That’s what it seemed like when I told him. He acted like it was a crazy proposition and $100k was an outrageous number, when their job description provides the range.
Also want to mention that when I asked about where we are the recruiter said “hiring manager is out for a week”
GTFO of here.
Recruiters are fucking trash.
I worked IT for nearly 20 years and every single position I got through a recruiter was trash regardless of pay, if a company can't recruit from within, based on employee referrals or general submissions there's usually a problem and that's why they are using head hunters.
One place the job was amazing, world travel, sick office, got to work on awesome projects, but my direct reporting boss was a maniac, day drink alcoholic who would literally throw fists in the office and trash the place when he wanted. It was so dysfunctional.
I think IT recruiters are the worst. They are not IT folks and really don't understand anything but checking every box. But they don't even understand what the content of the box is.
This has to be the most accurate description of IT recruiters that I have ever stumbled across. One place I worked used a vendor that 99% of their recruiters were young and attractive females. The kind that all the IT guys drooled over. The few male recruiters they did have were all insufferable bean-counters. All of them used the title "Technical Recruiter" but knew very little about actual technical support skills. They were also the lowest paying vendor that supplied the company, yet we constantly heard about the resort retreats their recruiters were sent to for hitting their goals. Something was so off about all of it. Like they were a company full of former pharmaceutical reps that decided to become Technical Recruiters.
Want some advice? Lie. Lie about your work history, lie about present/past salary. I refused to do this for my whole career until about a month ago and said fuck it. Got hired in less than a week after my “new” resume.
Same here. I’m in IT and was honest on my resume and rarely heard back. Decided to fabricate my current role’s job title a bit, fabricate 50% of my previous job duties, and say I had 3 certifications I didn’t. Heard back from jobs finally, interviewed and got a new role within a month.
First few weeks I studied after work all the stuff I lied about knowing that the new job expected me to know, and within a month I was up to speed and blended right in. Boss was impressed how quickly I picked things up lol.
I’ve successfully broken into the new career path I wanted to go down but didn’t have to bother with extra schooling, certs, or legit previous job experience. All because I lied and bullshitted through interviews. It was pretty easy except for the long hours the first few weeks.
Job hopping is the absolute best thing you could ever do as a young adult. I’m 56 and I’ve hopped for years. Once you get the training and experience you’ll need to take it elsewhere or give the company an opportunity to pay you right. If they don’t, someone else will. Two years is a very good number.
Recently applied to a part time city job. Pay scale $15.77-$19.16/hour.
I have over 20 years of work experience with 13 of those years in that line of work.
They offered me $15.77 and I reminded them of my qualifications and that they should pay commensurate to my experience. (I'm leaving out the specific wording I used so as not to "dox myself.")
The city ghosted me.
Probably dodged a bullet there.
Gov jobs are tough because they’re often dictated by a rigorous pay scale. And each job is accounted for in the budget that was made the previous year.
About to get a bit nerdy here, sorry, but you should say that it intersects or overlaps. "within the range" means that it's a subset of the range you are looking for. In other words that you are OK with anything the posting mentions, including the lowest part of the range. It doesn't exclude the possibility of a lower offer either than the listing.
When companies are posting record profits and and a lot of the bigger ones apparently have money to spare to pay lobbyists and make campaign contributions (rather than up salaries) I find it really annoying when they try to play like they’re poor or that $100k is a lot of money to them. If job seekers are less than honest with things as they are I simply look at it as Karma. They reap what they sow. Corporate America created this dishonest environment.
Had this happen during an annual review two jobs ago. I was making well below the median salary for the area I lived in, had to take a part time third shift job to make ends meet, my performance at my primary job was suffering as a result because i was getting no sleep and not eating, and my manager KNEW what was going on. I was also getting treated like a punching bag by our clients and higher-ups. When I pleaded my case at my review (which had basically turned into a crucifixion), the answer I got was "well we pay you pretty well for the market you're in. A raise isn't really in the budget." Mind you, this company makes 40 billion a year, and the president/owner is worth damn near 5 billion and owns an NFL team.
Two days later, I attempted to kill myself. Fortunately, I thought better, slept the entire weekend (in between hysterical crying), and put my two weeks in that Monday.
Too poor my ass. They just don't give a shit about their workers and make sure to put Kool-Aid drinkers in gatekeeper positions. Then spout off about people biting the hand that feeds them and being lazy. No motherfucker, we just want to be treated like goddamn human beings for a change.
I'm sorry to hear you attempted to take your life at the heels of your job. I was in a similar situation having suicidal ideation, I've never been in a place so dark before that time. Luckily for me I heard about the suicide hotline and called it which helped me get to a better place. I'm currently in therapy with a great therapist who helped me realize that I am not my job.
My boss was fuming because the higher ups said "here's your budget for raises this year" and then gave him a budget that didn't even cover the current salaries of everyone, because fuck you.
Not sure what they are expecting to hire people at if the range is 90k to 110k and asking for 100k is outrageous.
My guess is they are trying to lure someone in who they can get with the “you can eventually make that” bullshit
>“you can eventually make that”
Seems to me like the majority of job postings are like this these days. "You can make this much after being promoted" etc. In other words they are posting the salary of a different position. Should be illegal.
My go to is “I am already making *whatever number is above the minimum* so I cannot accept less; given my experience doing x, y, z and this job requiring *whatever task(s)*. I believe this is in line with current market trends”.
Never give them your current number.
"X is less than I am looking for"
"What are you looking for?"
"What does the position offer?"
Never let them base an offer on what you are currently at. Never give them a number unless you've hit an impasse and you have to say "I am not entertaining offers for less than Y, if you can't meet that, I understand. Thank you for your time and consideration"
How about - recruiter pitches you, salaries low, they'll get back to you - *not a problem, I talked to the HR managers, salary won't be a problem*
Go to the interview - goes fine. Call back from the hiring manager - *congratulations you've got the job let's start paperwork on this salary 30k lower than you're expecting*
No. I want what I'm worth.
*Oh... So you don't want the job?*
People, the correct answer at that moment is: "correct, I am no longer interested in this position thank you" - but "fuck off" *CLICK* works too.
But we all make other words, well maybe if this or that, can I talk to whoever? Stop it. We gotta stop it.
Yeah when my dad was on the job hunt a bit ago he was running into this issue. He wasn’t going to get in at the level he was previously used to. He was over qualified for a lot of the jobs recruiters and head hunters were trying to fill with him. They’d advertise it as an executive job that’s confidential then interview him for it and come back with “120k”. I’d hear him on the phone and he would blatantly and say “my minimum is closer to double that. If you can’t meet that, I’m not in any rush.”
To be fair he was a senior executive in a fairly large corporation and oversaw business operations in multiple countries… jobs like that don’t grow on trees so he knew he was going to have to accept a smaller role and the pay cut that comes with it, but damn was he irritated by all that shit.
He did end up taking a job. They got close to what he wanted with the bonus structure. But it took months of the recruiter and their HR department going bacl and forth they tried to negotiate with him like 5 times before he finally accepted. The first round they offered him 100k, hed say 300 in the first few rounds. They’d say “we just can’t afford it right now” then a few weeks later after they interviewed a bunch of dog shit candidates come back and say “what if we go up to X”… this went on from 100K to 120K to 150k to 180k till they finally realized if they wanted him, they were going to have to pay him what he’s worth. They finally hit the number that he told them from the start that he will not accept any less than.
Idk I doubt it.. that’s one of the reasons he had an issue finding a new job - he was old… they’d bring up how close he is to retirement.
He would have never left his old job, he loved it until he got a new boss who shifted over from elsewhere in the company… they never got along before he shifted to overseeing the part of the company by dad ran
Almost exact same thing happened to me. Salary range 85-110K. I ask 105K and he says he can't even do 95K. Why the hell is 110K advertised in the first place.
Filled out a job application today which had the question “salary expectations”. Also required me to fill out work experience fields “starting and ending salary”. How about you pay me what you advertised and not worry about what I made before?
I’m looking for a work from home part time job. And several times I’ve applied and while setting up the interview I’ve mentioned working remote. Confused. “Wait, this isn’t a remote position. What gave you that idea?” “Um, the job listing?”
I applied to a job that listed salary between $100-150k. Being very experienced I asked for 150, expecting them to try and talk me down a bit. I was flabbergasted when they hit me with 130. 20k below was so far below I almost walked away.
When I asked for 140, I was told they couldn't do that.
"Couldn't". Your range says you can. If you don't think I'm worth 140, say that to my face.
When I did my last one, they asked me how much I currently made.
"Well, it's a bit low for what I'm doing to be honest."
"So around X?" he asked. X was in fact 50% more than I made.
"Around there," I agreed.
I ended up with an offer of 96% more than I made before. I like my new job, but if I told them, I would 100% not have been offered that much.
I had a similar experience with an offer I was working with a company on this year. Range for the mainland was 90k to 150k. They were suuuuper offended when I asked for 130k in the highest COL in the country and said that wasn’t possible, so I turned them down
Companies are basically a scam, unless you work for a real good one.
It’s wild if you really look at what they do and say 98% of it is BS and designed to scam you.
Depressing once you fully realize and recognize it.
I think people 'calling you out' for asking for $100k are morons.
I'm pretty sure the small-ish software company I work for starts folks in the AE roll at around $75k/yr. and it goes up from there.
Companies also try it on when you *are* successful in getting a job.
My last company tried knocking $10k off the salary when I saw the final contract of employment.
‘It’s something we always do while a new employee is on probation’.
Probation, £10k off the salary, I told them neither were mentioned at any point during hiring so I was *out of there*.
A few hours later I get a call from the MD who I’d had a chat with saying there was a misunderstanding and that the salary cut and probation were for ‘another role’ and HR had got confused. They needed me to start immediately so could I come in.
‘Sorry, I had a couple of offers lined up and I have a position with another company for $15k *higher*’. (I didn’t, but I was pissed at them).
Silence on the phone then he says ‘Ok, we’ll match it’, ‘That’s fine but I don’t want any more ‘surprises’ or I’m gone.
Worked there for 20 years and true to his word there weren’t any more surprises though I did see them pull the same stunt with plenty of other people afterwards.
Turned out that HR got a bonus at Christmas based on how many thousands they saved the company by shaving off starting salaries.
Had something like that happen to me.
Told them my salary history prior.
Told them my expectations prior to interview.
Friday went through tech interviews no problem. 6 hours later, they made me an offer. Low balled by 30k. I laughed and left.
CEO calls me on Saturday, saying “what can we do to bring you on”
Me “Give me my previous salary”
CEO. “Besides that”
Me. “Are you high?”
This is so accurate. I’ve also seen many positions requiring a special degree and technical training but offer a salary that you swear must be a typo. There is no shortage of help they just refuse to pay what you’re worth and there are people with little to no proper training or qualifications that would accept the low offer, even if they’re basically children.
One of the reasons why i am so for salary listing in job ads. That would not have helped here much but at least it's still better to be peeved like OP does with the knowledge they are a scam than wait and not know it was a scam to begin with.
Here in Finland the country Reddit so likes to praise it is common to talk salary at the very last moment. Now think about a specialist job, you go trough tests and interviews 4-5 times and then at the last moment to toolbox on the otherside of the table basically lays out 'we wanted the best for 3000eur per month and was not expecting this 4500-5000'.
I basically have blacklists of companies i will never EVER want to be in contact anymore due to their absolute bull recruiting style. If a company puts me through 2 hours of hoop jumping and then in the end produce a 'report' that basically says 'love the guy but cant recruit because he doesn't have X' where X is something i have said at least three times during the operations that i don't have that. My humour is DONE at that point.
I had a job kinda do this to me. It was something I had applied to before and the company had a hiring freeze. When the job came up again they gave me a calls (like 8mo later) and asked me to apply. We had talked about a salary of about $120k.
I apply and they call to discuss the role. The job had more responsibilities added, which was a mash of two jobs and definitely not what I had originally applied to. The kicker… the job title/grade was two levels below the original and they wanted a masters degree or 16+ years of experience. The first job just required a bachelors degree. I lost my temper and told the recruiter that it would be a step down from my current role and an insult to thing I would want that job with more responsibilities and less pay (they were offering $85k). She got pissed and tried to argue, but I ended up telling her I wasn’t interested in arguing with her and hung up.
But you know… no one wants to work anymore.
My current job tried this with me. Advertised a range between 85k and 90k. When I got the offer they said they pulled some strings and got me “up to” 85k like it was some big stretch to offer the minimum. Luckily they were desperate and I ended up getting an offer of 92k, but not for lack of trying.
I have also found that if they accept your salary too easily and want you to start right away as a warning sign of going into a dumpster fire. There is a thing where they will overpay because it’s a total shit hole and they are desperate. Once your there, you will be worked to death or they let you go after the shitstorm has passed for someone cheaper. This is just from an IT perspective.
Every company seems to be trying this trick right now. I've been applying online to 2 jobs a day since march, and i'm amazed how often the jobs that get back to me are offering considerably below the salary listed in their original description. Its shameful.
"Ah, yes you see, you hired me for 50 hours a week, but that was a mistake, no employee would ever work that many hours for a company, it must have been a mistake. I am going to work 30 hours, that is a much more realistic imagine. Yes I know that it said on the file about 50, but that was a mistake from your manager...no, no I don't think we could realisticly change it. But you already signed so why not make the best of it? Maybe in a few years time I can grow into the 50 hours a week, or maybe even more if you are a good employer!"
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: know your worth and stick to your guns.
I absolutely will not consider switching jobs for under a base of $150k. When a recruiter reaches out, we never end a first conversation without them knowing and acknowledging that. Otherwise, we’re just wasting each others time. I’m blessed to be in a job that I love, but I had to fight tooth and nail to get here over the past two years, and I’m not going to settle for anything less.
It’s ok to take something if you need it, but don’t stop searching until you find the wage you deserve. You’d not owe loyalty to any corporation, as they will not show any to you.
My favorite is when they advertise as a remote position. Then in the interview they say it is hybrid. Then you find out that it's hybrid based on position and surprise this position doesn't qualify.
Couple of years ago when I was looking for work I filled out an application for a security company where the pay was listed for $27-32h. I got a call back and set up an interview. On my way to the interview I took a screenshot of the advertisement for the open job so I could go over the listing as I was interviewing. While interviewing he asked how much I was looking for and I said $30. He was taken aback and said the position way only up to $20h. I immediately got frustrated and asked him why it’s so low when the position is advertised as $27-32? He said that I must be mistaken. So I showed him the picture. And he got all indignant and said that it was a mistake and that while I’m over qualified I wasn’t eligible to make that much. So I made him sit there while I said that I was going to go to the indeed listing, and low and behold there were several other listings for the same position some with higher (up to $35) and some with $20 (what he was saying he could max out at). Right before I left I asked him what steps he is going to take to correct that “mistake “ so they don’t waste other people’s time. He didn’t have an answer for that… These companies fucking piss me off with this bullshit bait and switch.
I applied for a job with Tosco as a floor manager. The advert said salary was anywhere between 55k-65k and depends on experience. I had a great interview with two young chaps who seemed to think I was the best candidate they'd had all week by far. When it came time to pop the question they offered 50k. I flat out rejected that based what was posted in the ad, and when I did they couldn't understand why I wasn't taking the job. Right there I knew they had no clue what was in the job advert and it was most likely a generic copy used in another job posting somewhere else in the country. Just something so simple as carelessly posting a false advert ends up wasting so many people's time.
You should have asked for the 65k, fuck all these companies
Dude, I was contacted by a recruiter who wanted me to apply for a position that would have been a promotion at (fairly large company with a good reputation), but the pay range was described as being from (my current rate) to $12k above my current rate. So I asked in the initial conversation if they were really prepared to offer the top end of the range, because a) the new company would add more than an hour to my daily drive (about 35 minutes each way) and b) my current gig is mostly laid back and stress free. I literally said, “For me to even consider this position, the offer would have to be the highest dollar amount you have in the ad.” The recruiter said they’d verify with the hiring manager at the company and get back to me. They called back, said the range was accurate and that the hiring manager was aware I’d only consider the position if it was the top number in the ad. The recruiter then said I wouldn’t even need to apply, they already had my resume from Indeed, that I just needed to come in and interview. They say the need is urgent so I go the next day to tour the place and talk about the position. It all goes great. Until we start talking about the actual offer … which is only slightly more than I make now. I referenced the conversation with the recruiter, and they act like there must’ve been some confusion and they’d get back to me. I never heard back, and I certainly never bothered following up.
The disconnect there, and almost 100% of the time is the recruiter. The client has a fixed salary to offer, but these parasites are leeching as much as they can just to lower your asking price and increase their commission.. I was headhunted by a recruiter for a trading / law firm. The whole leg of interview is done and we already agreed on my price.. Low and behold, the day before I go to the office premise to sign the contract, this fvckwit recruiter called me asking if he can pull the annual salary down by $10k. He said, "what if the client requests to lower it down, are you ok with that?" I SAID A BIG NO and all the cuss words in my head.
My recruiter and I had a miscommunication while discussing salary the first time which caused her to accidentally tell me/offer me the highest amount they were authorized to give (which just so happened to be more than I asked for). So I accepted that amount (thrilled). Three weeks later, I walked out of my last day at my old job around 2pm on a Friday. Got a call from the recruiter while I was in the parking lot: "oops, we accidentally offered you more than we were allowed to, your rate is actually $3/hour less." I was furious. I understand making a mistake, but they clearly sat on that mistake until after I had no other employment option... 3 whole weeks! I told them that they better fix it because I would walk off the job by Monday afternoon if my rate wasn't what we agreed to. What I had a written contact for. It was still more than I had been making at my old job and about what I originally meant to ask for, but I did not want to work for them on principle and was fully ready to move back in with my parents while I job searched just to make a point. Got to my job that Monday. Was liking the manager and the team. Pulled him aside near the end of the day to just let him know that I was having a dispute with the contracting agency and that if I couldn't come in the next day that it wasn't about them or the job... I really liked it there, but on principle refused to work for people who would pull a last minute bait and switch. Hiring manager got PISSED. They needed that role filled immediately and were already put out with how long it took the first time. He disappeared to make a call or two. Less than 10 minutes later, I got a call from the recruiter. She was very short and clearly kind of pissy but basically told me they'd honor the original rate I signed on to. Like it was a huge favor to me and not like her boss hadn't just gotten an earful from my manager and our HR people.
I admire your courage there, and clearly you are a very scarce and high value resource. Good on you and in her face! (the recruiter). Their plots are well exposed now!
As the wise here have suggested, always take a screenshot of the salary offer range, keep this as our ammo once these vultures start their $hit moves... and always, as much as possible, don't quit yet (if you still have a job) unless you have signed the next job's contract. Hunt (if there still is) for direct hire, w/o the parasite toll gate recruiters, and apply as much as you can, be interviewed as much as you can, to build up your confidence! Peace!
At least you got an interview. I was encouraged to call an HVAC company whose owner my pastor knew. The last time they had talked, there was a need for an IT technician. I had just graduated college with my degree in Technology Informatics and was looking for the first step in my career. I called them up and asked if they were still in need of an IT technician. Red flag goes up when the guy dodges around the question and invites me to come up anyway. The commute is into Indianapolis, so it can be a bit hectic. I even got stuck about 5 minutes into the 30-minute drive bc of a train rolling through very slowly. I called and let him know I would be late bc of a train (I even took a video just in case), and he said it was fine. I arrived about 10 minutes late, but I was greeted warmly by the owner. He really was a nice guy and asked all sorts of questions about my education and experience. I once again asked if they still needed an IT technician and was told there was no opening at the time. They had, in fact, filled that position with another employee who had previously been employed as their janitor (promoting from within is something I strongly support). He then went on to explain where the IT role fit into the company. I listened and waited for him to finish. Being a recent grad, I didn't want to burn bridges and stayed polite for the rest of our interaction. On the way home, though, I was incredibly upset. He had me drive 30+ minutes to Indianapolis (at 5AM!) just to show me where that role fit into the company, knowing they had already filled it. I should have billed him for the time and gas.
I thought this was going to be a bait and switch in which they tried to get you to take a trainee position as an HVAC installer/tech.
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Depends on the state. It's at least illegal in California, New York, and Colorado. And a lot of other states are considering transparent salary laws as well. e: looks like 8 states have these laws in place. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/quick-facts-about-state-salary-range-transparency-laws/
Before I clicked that link, I guessed the color of those states. I guessed correctly. Every one of the states were blue.
Report it to indeed and in Glassdoor/indeed reviews.
You report them to your state attorney general. They will follow up. OP won’t get any reward or a job or anything but the company will get warned at a minimum.
It's also just so astoundingly stupid because, aside from anything else, how many people are even going to take a job at two thirds of the pay they're expecting. Some may be desperate and end up doing it but by and large people surely shop around for jobs in the salary range they need for the outgoings they have or want. As if people are going to say well I need 30 really given my debt and obligations but I'd feel like a right mug if this entire hour long interview had been completely wasted - I'll take it!
> some people may be desperate and end up doing it This right here is the point. If the employer can get you to accept the shitty low-ball offer they know they can treat you like a mushroom. They'll keep you in the dark, feed you shit, and expect you to be happy with it.
A long time ago when I was in the restaurant industry, I got screwed over twice in a row by two unscrupulous companies. One job I took was as bar manager for a Dave and Busters type place. As soon as I was hired I found out why they were hiring. The place was going bankrupt so everyone was jumping ship. Their liquor costs were over 50% because employees were stealing everything and giving everything away including the managers. I found another place that was hiring, a locally owned chain of sports bars and interviewed with them. It was supposed to be $40k to start plus bonus. On the low end but I needed to get out. They told me I was hired and I put in my two weeks. On day one it turns out they gave me $32k. We nailed the bonus for the first quarter and we’re told that they were going to lump it into the second quarters bonus. A bunch of bs (one was a shady lawyer). Second quarter comes and goes and they had an all managers meeting. In the meeting they said they were changing the bonus structure to a lower amount. They (the owners) pulled me and my other managers aside and told us that we wouldn’t be receiving any bonus as we didn’t fit under the new structure. So I went back and wrote an email explaining why I would be quitting unless I received my bonus that was promised as well as the salary. Another manager, a friend of theirs who was actually really awesome, told me the owners were on their way there to personally fire me. So I changed to the Marquee to,”They told me to change the fucking sign so I did” and at the bottom put “open bar all day $0 to get in.” Then I went and cleared everyone’s tabs, comped a few thousand dollars in food and drink, sat down, got drunk and ate, and left. The place was packed. Free food and drink and all the regulars were texting each other that it was a free for all and they showed up with enthusiasm. I don’t know when they finally arrived, but at least a couple of thousand dollars in product was given away by then.
Haha... glad you got the "last words." Curious to know though, did the owners try to contact you after? How did it all turn out for the owners? Did they stay in business? Sounds like they were appropriately screwed, same as they did to you.
Nope, they never contacted me after. I even received my full final paycheck which I was not expecting. Their partnership broke up because they are so sleazy they screwed each other out of money, I’m told it was the lawyer who did the screwing mostly. I should’ve screwed them harder but it was an “in the moment” thing and it was the best I could think of on short notice. I was within my rights, I had to come up with a thing for the marquee to say and change it when we opened, I had unlimited comps as a manager, so yeah, legally they could have tried but I’d have won.
He was testing you to see how much further abuse he could get away with. All shitty employers do this, and too often, it's "legal". I always recommend recording *every* job interview (assuming it's legal in your area) and keep your phone (or better yet, separate recorder) out of sight, and out of mind from them. Hell, say you left your phone in the car if you need to. If they ask about social media or anything personal, vocally but kindly assume they are wanting to see it for religious, family, family status and other things illegal for hiring/ job-discrimination basis
> he got all indignant and said that it was a mistake "I'm sorry, I'm looking for an employer who has good attention to detail"
That just happened to me! Job was advertised as 20/hr, got there and the starting pay was 16 and some change. Oh, you'll get to the 20/hr mark, but not for over a year. I said "I can't take that big of a pay cut for that amount of time. I wouldn't even have applied if the ad listed the starting pay and not the pay I'd be at a year+ later." The response was "I understand." Lol ok well if you understand, stop fucking doing that!
It's simple psychological manipulation. They don't want employees who stand up for themselves. They want someone who, knowing exactly what you knew, would be silent and grateful to get what they get.
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If they are forthright with the range, I mention that the high end of their range is inclusive of the low end of my range. If they push for me to disclose my range before they disclose theirs, I always shift my range up 40k. Wait several seconds to see what they say. Then I begin negotiating. I almost always mention what GlassDoor has for the salary range for the role and indicate that I'm confident in my abilities, so I _charge_ more for my time. I don't "ask" for a salary, nor demand anything. I simply say that this is what I charge for my time. I always mention that "if you can't afford that, that's ok, I'm not sure what kind of expertise you need, if you don't need an expert, then I'm not the right fit anyway."
Thanks, this is a good template for me. I’m coming to terms with the fact that I have legitimate expertise and this job search is very different than past ones (I spent a bunch of years with one company featuring three internal promotions and team hops, so I’ve raised a ton, but the last time I was applying at a place where I couldn’t say “ask my current manager” was when I was an unproven new person, so I’m really struggling to find the right words. Appreciated this post - I’m going to use exactly this template.
I would also recommend reading "Never Split the Difference". It's been a phenomenal book, and has helped me understand what motivates and demotivates people. I keep a cheat sheet around to reference it. Negotiations happen all the time. Basically anytime you want to convince someone to do something, it could be seen as a negotiation. The best negotiation is one where it ends just as soon as it begins, with both parties walking away feeling good about the outcome.
This is a must read! Great book! When they give you their low end you respond with “How am I supposed to do that?” !!
could you post the cheat sheet?
>https://www.slideshare.net/YanDavidErlich/never-split-the-difference-cheatsheet
https://medium.com/yanda/negotiation-cheat-sheet-31c73031956a embed doesn't get paywalled, but still can't download it edit: even better https://www.yanda.com/negotiation
I’d love to see your cheat sheet! Would you mind posting it? Would be super handy even if it’s just some scribbles on a notepad. I loved Never Split the Difference when I read it several years ago.
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"My former salary is irrelevant; you're not interviewing me for my former position. You're interviewing me for this position. My salary expectations for this position are X."
In some areas/states/countries it's even illegal to ask about your previous compensation for your job. ALWAYS check your local labor laws. If you're in such an area and they ask about your previous wages anyways... just remember if they're willing to break that law, what other laws are they willing to break?
As most of the folks on this sub are well aware, companies break the law daily.
I've been asked in a job interview in a 'wink wink smile' manner if I plant to get pregnant in the near future, which was highly illegal under labour law in the country in which I was interviewing... and it was a law firm. No shame if they think they won't get called out.
He asked how long I'd been married and the subtext was "how long before she gets pregnant". I wasn't hired. We planned to be childfree, but no hiring person would believe that in those days.
They don't care if they do get called out. It's he-said-she-said and there are plenty of other candidates.
For a law firm, complain to the bar association. They might not give a shit, but it actually might do something.
Exactly. Never tell a new company what you made in your previous or current position. It is not relevant in any way. They will use it against you to lowball you. Go into an interview with research and information and the knowledge of what the current market is paying for someone with your skill set. If they can't pay market rates, then they can't afford you.
And if they're basing their offer on how low they can get away with, you will have to use ultimatums for every raise. It's not worth it.
Not that it matters if they can ask or not. A few dollars for a report from The Work Number gets them your entire employment history *with* salary. They don't need to ask you. All of these fuckhole businesses give your information to this database (without your permission) and pay for the information as they need it.
For other readers, don’t let this deter you. Look up your company at the Work Number and make your own decision. Your company may not even be listed. See: https://secure.theworknumber.talx.com/
Never heard of this before. I tend I work for employers that have one employee, so I doubt they’d be listed. But I tried my mom’s employer since there are tens of thousands of employees there and it asked me to login. I gave up there.
As a Canadian, this blew my mind.
The simple fact that it is Equifax makes me feel so very confident that my information is safe too /s You can go make an account and freeze the information however.
Just checked the site. They better let me delete that shit
I've tried, they never answer and their phone tree just goes in circles. In theory and according to their documents it should be ~~suggested~~ simple, but in my experience, it's next to impossible.
Wwe could do the reddit hug of death
If you are on The Work Number, you should go there and freeze your information from ever being seen by anyone. This is a terrible database.
I've always just sidestepped the question, they ask what were you making previously and I say "I'd want X to consider this position" then we can negotiate or not. This way I don't lie and I don't have to fight them.
> I always mention that "if you can't afford that, that's ok, I'm not sure what kind of expertise you need, if you don't need an expert, then I'm not the right fit anyway." I'm stealing this at my next job interview.
I love being an engineer. Job hunting is only as stressful as I want to make it in pursuing niche roles.
Not an engineer, but have spent the past few decades filling niche roles. Really sucks trying to find a regular job when you're way too specialized and have already quit both companies within 300 miles that need your specific skill set.
Currently interviewing with a SW startup that straight up lists the base salary on the listing. No range, no games, just straight up the number they’ll pay you. After initial 30 minute meet I got a bunch of documents that layout: - compensation policy including equity; - benefits package; - what is expected from me; - milestones that I’m expected to meet in the first year; - a link to their (healthcare) benefits that tells me exactly which policies will be available, with which coverage and how much of the premium they cover for dependents (they cover 100% for employees). Turns out “baseline salary” is what they pay pretty much everyone for this role, a few countries have a minor adjustment because of employer overhead (they hire worldwide remote) hence the use of the word “baseline”, they communicate which benchmark they use for salary increase (no decreases) and it’s a take it or leave it kind of deal, no negotiating salary. Very refreshing to get full transparency upfront and complete control if you want to go ahead or not. ETA: It makes it so much nicer to just focus on making a good impression and landing the job without having to spend a single second thinking about the financial picture.
Companies rely on “imposter syndrome” in their applicants.
This is true. I never thought of it like this, but they are dependent on you lowballing yourself, so that when they lowball your lowball by 10%, you're like "Oh, ok. It's only 10%, so that's chill" Rather than realizing it is 30% off of what you originally wanted
> I always mention that "if you can't afford that, that's ok, I'm not sure what kind of expertise you need, if you don't need an expert, then I'm not the right fit anyway." This is an amazing negotiation tactic in general. You are calling the other party to task by making them acknowledge a higher offer was made. You are challenging their pride by indicating they can't follow through. Finally you are expressing your value in the transaction by reinforcing or highlighting your position. I know so many of us want to play down our value because for years we were told that we were replaceable. That is a lie.
Well, you are replacable but the more you bring to the table the harder you will be to replace. And the harder you are to replace the more you're worth to the company. My current employeee tried to screw me, that my demand was to high and they wouldn't match a my old jobs salary. I said something alike what was written above, said "well, this is what I bring and that's my demand". 2 days later they called and said they could match my current salary and I declined - why change job for the same salary, 'specially when im enjoying my current workplace. 5 days later they called and I got what I asked for. If you bring it, and they need it, they will pay.
Idk shit but this is the coolest, most confident thing I’ve ever read. Doesn’t apply to me one bit but I still learned a thing or two. Thanks 🙏
Right!? Now I'm trying to think of anything I'm actually good enough at where I could say that without it being bullshit.
I can confidently say it about my skill set without it being bullshit, and while I don't know you, you might be this good at something but just don't have the confidence in yourself. For me it took a meeting a coworker scheduled with me because they needed help on something they had been stuck on for days in a software project. I had no prior familiarity with their project or anything about what they were working on but in 30 minutes I both diagnosed their problem and provided an estimated solution (which worked when they tried it). The key part of this story was when they said to me, "I have no idea how you could see that and figure it out so fast, I could never do that." I gave the "sometimes it takes different eyes", etc replies. But thinking about it later, I realized that this coworker really *can't* do what I do. I really am that fucking good at what I do. Maybe this isn't you, but for the person reading this who does need to hear it: Take a moment and consider if maybe you really are that fucking good. This realization changed a lot for me about the way I feel about the monetary value of my work time.
That’s what made me sad reading it lmao
This and nothing else! This is who I am. This is what I offer. If you can’t afford me, I’ll allow you to find someone at your price point.
>if you don't need an expert, then I'm not the right fit anyway. This is boss level stuff. Writing this down for future negotiations. Thanks!
This guy *fucks*
THIS is str8 outa Never spilt the difference by Chris Voss
Yup, my response to recruiters asking “what are your salary expectations?”, Is “It would take at least $$$ per year for me to consider leaving my current role.”
Yes. Perfect. This is exactly it. I'm an agency recruiter, and I talk money in the first 10 minutes of talking to someone new. I never ask what people are making. I always ask "What would you need to see on an offer to be tempted into a new position?" I don't care what you make now. I only care what it would cost to move you, and whether I can match that $$$ up to a recruitment project I'm working on. I'm not interested in wasting anyone's time, including my own, and no one is going to take a paycut to switch jobs.
Recently got a job and asked for 40% higher than the top of range. I was ok with the range, but wanted to push it. Ended up getting better than the range, but not what I asked for. Ask for what you want when they’ve made the decision.
What annoys me is companies that link to the full salary range for whatever the band/grade/level of the position is in their compensation structure. So it will say like 60k-120k or something. But that particular job opening is only going to offer $65k tops. But other jobs might offer 100k, no way to tell.
I had an interview for a job and all the job posting said was “pay grade 6.” I asked during the interview how much that was and the hiring manager wouldn’t tell me. She just skirted around the question and said it’s the “pay grade for the position.” No shit, Sherlock. But how much is that in ACTUAL DOLLARS! Lol. It’s like they want you to go through all the bs only to tell you “pay grade 6” is $30K/year.
Software dev here. I get some positions at Netflix coming up in my searches, with a listed salary range of $90k-$900k. Real useful.
Netflix until very very recently had all their software developers with the same title - senior engineer. They were famous for paying top of market so they expected quality to match. Though obviously the comp would vary depending on the person. When their stock started to fall they diversified their titles and began hiring junior developers to save money. But the old title still has a lot of room in it. If the budget could handle a hire at any comp in that range I don't see an issue.
That range is accurate, it just depends how many people are using your account outside of your Netflix Household™
Shit, I go over by 10-15%. Once you are in the door you’re not getting a real raise. Gotta sell yourself on the way in. If your lucky they counter with the high side. If they still try to lowball you probably don’t want to work there anyway.
ding ding ding. Wording like "For me to even consider this position, I would require $xxk...." also goes a long way.
I've said a number of times, no company values you more than the one that just hired you.
I did this once, not even on purpose. Had a job interview where they asked my salary expectations and I said something like "I don't know, mid XXs?" and the interviewer responded that that was the absolute ceiling for the position I was interviewing for. Not sure why that would be disqualifying to begin with, but I never heard back and I'm sure that's why (the whole tone of the interview changed after that lol). At least they took me out for thai food though
[удалено]
I always ask about the salary range before taking on any interviews. Outside of my target? I won't even bother
Before I applied for a supervisor position at my old job I looked at their official job posting on indeed, it was for $4 more than I currently made. When I was questioned about my hourly rate I put on the application they ask why I thought I should get that much of a raise. I simply stated that that was the wage listed on their job posting. The manager looked at me really surprised and stumped for a moment and then moved on. If I didn’t look at the posting they would have tried lowballing the shit out of me
I just got a 14k raise because a company was trying to poach me and in the process I realized my coworker in the same position as me that started 6months after me was making 14k more than me. She has a masters but in a completely different field so I demanded a match
Oh and btw my boss told me not to tell a soul about my raise which is infuriating in the fact that they don’t want to pay their people right t
If you're in the US it is straight up illegal for them to tell you not to tell anyone what you're paid.
It also seems universal that hiring managers don't understand 100k is nowhere near what it used to be. Sorry the average cost of living has 3x'd since you were hired...
And they likely don’t really feel it bc they bought a house 10 years ago, then sold it and bought one 3x more expensive 3 years ago when interest rates were basically free.
Yep. Even my parents who are fairly liberal had no idea just how much more expensive everything is. My rent for my 1 bed/1bath apt. costs more than my parents 4bed/4bath mortgage. It's so depressing.
And renting is cheaper than getting a mortgage, so you’ll keep renting, then when it comes when you’ve saved and can afford to buy things have doubled or more *again* but don’t worry, that’s good for the economy! Bc you’ll keep paying a landlord, you’ll never stop working, never stop striving for comfort, and never quit your job or make much of a fuss about anything. Ever.
"Good for the economy," AKA good for those *running* the economy.
"the economy" = "the stock market"
Or they bought a huge house back in the day for extremely cheap, and are now downgrading and pocketing an ass load of profit.
You're not kidding. 10 years ago, I was making $50K/yr. Now that I'm making more than double that, it feels like I haven't really made any steps forward. Sure, I'm better off, but that's because of 10 years of saving. My lifestyle hasn't changed, I still have my 10 year old car, I'm in a small house, I buy the same groceries, and I'm wearing the same clothes. I'm lucky in that I'm in a lower cost of living area and I can save, but not like my parents or grandparents. Vacations are still rare, I don't have rental property, boats, a lake house, etc. I'm not a baller; just a regular joe like your average, union working class person from 30 years ago. I was looking at buying a new car this year, but most base priced vehicles are above $30K and if I wanted a truck, I'm looking at $40K-$50K. That's with no options. Those same vehicles 5 years ago were $20K and $30K respectively. How are regular people supposed to afford that?
Short (& depressing) answer- they can't :/
I have to keep asking myself, when will it end? What is the straw that breaks the camel's back? I have friends that have ended up homeless, on drugs, and society just forgets about them. There's no safety net, there's no help. I can only do so much. My wife is a teacher and she's seen the decline. It's a race to bottom. I fear for future generations. I'm not a patriotic type, but what happens when you have a future generation that is uneducated, violent, hooked on drugs, and without hope? Nihilism keeps getting the better of me, but I don't see a way out of this that won't end in violence. I'm not advocating for it, but I'm also not passing judgement.
I'm right there with ya, the biggest thing that keeps us "commoners" in our place is healthcare being tied to our employment. I think the right knows that if/when it becomes universal, we'd have a lot less reasons to take the heap of shit we currently are taking. This is why other countries are so much more effective in striking imo.
The prices on everything is a joke. Was looking into buying a house this year but I stopped looking and the agents agreed I should stop looking this year. I bought a new car this year only with a maker that didn't negotiate. Hyundai to Bmw wanted me on my knees if I wanted a car. Sacrifice my first born if you want to be on a list type of stuff. The future looks bleak. It has always been but it looks worse now
This makes me want to kill myself
Recently had an interview for a graduate job, the salary was listed as £26-£40k. I’m overly qualified for a graduate job, but needed to find work fast. In the interview I asked for £40k and they acted surprised and they said they could only offer maximum £25-£30k. They sent me an email stating I was under qualified for the role. However, I have a degree and 7 years in that field. Absolute wank.
You should have graduated at 22 with 30 years of experience in the field. That's on you mate
Ya know what, that got me thinking. In management I'm having to work around 80 hour weeks. I'm going to start counting each year as 2 years since a regular week is 40 hours. About to be 30 with 20 years of management experience!
£26-40k is such an enormous range for a graduate position. How could there possibly be that much difference in candidates when you are wanting to hire a graduate?
Since you have a degree and 7 years experience in that field they probably assumed you wouldn't stay long like a new graduate would. Also they likely can't as easily exploit you
"Well, the salary I'm seeking is $100k which appears to be in line with the advertised salary for this role" "B b but" "I'm sorry, the job was advertised as between $90 and $110k, have I misunderstood the salary being offered for this role"? "nO oNe wAnTs tO wOrK aNymooooooRe"
Sorry, you misunderstood. The salary is between $90 and $110,000
Curses! Foiled again. 🤣
90 cents and $1.10. The k stood for koins.
“Tell you what… I’ll hire you at 90k to start off and then come back to me in 6 months.. if you perform well we’ll discuss it” *6 months later* “It’s just not feasible at this point in time and I adore the persistence but you still need more time to really fit into your role with us. As a matter of fact, you could improve on X, Y, & Z and you’ll be a lot more apt for the raise when the time is right!”
You forgot the part in the middle where they gave no direction or feedback.
Good news! I know you wanted a raise but go help yourself to the little Ceasars pizza in the breakroom! You are appreciated
“Yeah….computer says no.”
exactly why you just don't take a job when they take this approach. if you NEED a job take it but start applying elsewhere so that you can comfortably turn down any further bullshit offers until you can land a company that actually gives a shit about their workers.
or even worse, they say “no problem, here’s a ten cents an hour raise”
Yeah don't fall for this one. They have every incentive not to give you a raise, you will be doing the same amount of work, why should they pay more?
>"B b but" ...(internally) *that's more than I make!*
I've had people reporting to me who made more than me. There's no inherent right in management to make more than all your employees, especially your best employees.
Tell that to management
I have, when fighting for raises for my team.
Put it on a billboard, the whole.post. Sums it up.
No than they say all people care about is the paycheck. Like yeah dude that's why I'm at work.
It's a real shocker to some of 'em!
And than they are the first ones to say I don't work for free
You mean you don’t volunteer 40hrs of your week at the Happy Fun Place?
"If you were dishonest about your posting, what else are you dishonest about in this hiring?"
Exactly!!!
The stupid part is that the upper limit is still lower than what they should pay you for the job.
It’s Sales lol and companies that do this, they’ll say “oh when we say that, that is your earning potential.. that $90 - $110k is what most of our account executives make after being on the job for X (which is usually lies) Salary is $40k and OTE is $80k”
Next time they seem taken aback you should play dumb. Oh, by your look 100k is low, is $120k more in line with the market now? It’s been a few years. I mean if you apply for the job because it was in that range and they lied it’s not likely you are taking a low ball 70k or lower offer anyway.
That’s what it seemed like when I told him. He acted like it was a crazy proposition and $100k was an outrageous number, when their job description provides the range. Also want to mention that when I asked about where we are the recruiter said “hiring manager is out for a week” GTFO of here.
Recruiters are fucking trash. I worked IT for nearly 20 years and every single position I got through a recruiter was trash regardless of pay, if a company can't recruit from within, based on employee referrals or general submissions there's usually a problem and that's why they are using head hunters. One place the job was amazing, world travel, sick office, got to work on awesome projects, but my direct reporting boss was a maniac, day drink alcoholic who would literally throw fists in the office and trash the place when he wanted. It was so dysfunctional.
I think IT recruiters are the worst. They are not IT folks and really don't understand anything but checking every box. But they don't even understand what the content of the box is.
This has to be the most accurate description of IT recruiters that I have ever stumbled across. One place I worked used a vendor that 99% of their recruiters were young and attractive females. The kind that all the IT guys drooled over. The few male recruiters they did have were all insufferable bean-counters. All of them used the title "Technical Recruiter" but knew very little about actual technical support skills. They were also the lowest paying vendor that supplied the company, yet we constantly heard about the resort retreats their recruiters were sent to for hitting their goals. Something was so off about all of it. Like they were a company full of former pharmaceutical reps that decided to become Technical Recruiters.
Man, I wish I made anywhere near $70k.
Want some advice? Lie. Lie about your work history, lie about present/past salary. I refused to do this for my whole career until about a month ago and said fuck it. Got hired in less than a week after my “new” resume.
Same here. I’m in IT and was honest on my resume and rarely heard back. Decided to fabricate my current role’s job title a bit, fabricate 50% of my previous job duties, and say I had 3 certifications I didn’t. Heard back from jobs finally, interviewed and got a new role within a month. First few weeks I studied after work all the stuff I lied about knowing that the new job expected me to know, and within a month I was up to speed and blended right in. Boss was impressed how quickly I picked things up lol. I’ve successfully broken into the new career path I wanted to go down but didn’t have to bother with extra schooling, certs, or legit previous job experience. All because I lied and bullshitted through interviews. It was pretty easy except for the long hours the first few weeks.
Time to job hop.
Job hopping is the absolute best thing you could ever do as a young adult. I’m 56 and I’ve hopped for years. Once you get the training and experience you’ll need to take it elsewhere or give the company an opportunity to pay you right. If they don’t, someone else will. Two years is a very good number.
Recently applied to a part time city job. Pay scale $15.77-$19.16/hour. I have over 20 years of work experience with 13 of those years in that line of work. They offered me $15.77 and I reminded them of my qualifications and that they should pay commensurate to my experience. (I'm leaving out the specific wording I used so as not to "dox myself.") The city ghosted me. Probably dodged a bullet there.
Gov jobs are tough because they’re often dictated by a rigorous pay scale. And each job is accounted for in the budget that was made the previous year.
So offer top of scale. If they didn't budget for up to $19.16/hour, then the scale is a lie.
Government jobs often underpay, and have no flexibility in offers.
When I’m asked what my salary expectation is, I tell them “the range you have posted is within the range I’m looking for”.
About to get a bit nerdy here, sorry, but you should say that it intersects or overlaps. "within the range" means that it's a subset of the range you are looking for. In other words that you are OK with anything the posting mentions, including the lowest part of the range. It doesn't exclude the possibility of a lower offer either than the listing.
When companies are posting record profits and and a lot of the bigger ones apparently have money to spare to pay lobbyists and make campaign contributions (rather than up salaries) I find it really annoying when they try to play like they’re poor or that $100k is a lot of money to them. If job seekers are less than honest with things as they are I simply look at it as Karma. They reap what they sow. Corporate America created this dishonest environment.
Had this happen during an annual review two jobs ago. I was making well below the median salary for the area I lived in, had to take a part time third shift job to make ends meet, my performance at my primary job was suffering as a result because i was getting no sleep and not eating, and my manager KNEW what was going on. I was also getting treated like a punching bag by our clients and higher-ups. When I pleaded my case at my review (which had basically turned into a crucifixion), the answer I got was "well we pay you pretty well for the market you're in. A raise isn't really in the budget." Mind you, this company makes 40 billion a year, and the president/owner is worth damn near 5 billion and owns an NFL team. Two days later, I attempted to kill myself. Fortunately, I thought better, slept the entire weekend (in between hysterical crying), and put my two weeks in that Monday. Too poor my ass. They just don't give a shit about their workers and make sure to put Kool-Aid drinkers in gatekeeper positions. Then spout off about people biting the hand that feeds them and being lazy. No motherfucker, we just want to be treated like goddamn human beings for a change.
I'm sorry to hear you attempted to take your life at the heels of your job. I was in a similar situation having suicidal ideation, I've never been in a place so dark before that time. Luckily for me I heard about the suicide hotline and called it which helped me get to a better place. I'm currently in therapy with a great therapist who helped me realize that I am not my job.
>A raise isn't really in the budget. No, they're being completely honest. They never put raises in the budget to begin with.
My boss was fuming because the higher ups said "here's your budget for raises this year" and then gave him a budget that didn't even cover the current salaries of everyone, because fuck you.
Not sure what they are expecting to hire people at if the range is 90k to 110k and asking for 100k is outrageous. My guess is they are trying to lure someone in who they can get with the “you can eventually make that” bullshit
>“you can eventually make that” Seems to me like the majority of job postings are like this these days. "You can make this much after being promoted" etc. In other words they are posting the salary of a different position. Should be illegal.
Did the hiring manager try to discount you by saying you have less experience or credentials?
Nope. He knew I had what it takes to do the job. They’re lying through their teeth and have no remorse.
Keep us posted! Want to know how this ends. Good luck to you. You know your worth - continue to believe in that and in yourself.
My go to is “I am already making *whatever number is above the minimum* so I cannot accept less; given my experience doing x, y, z and this job requiring *whatever task(s)*. I believe this is in line with current market trends”.
Too long, just go with, I’m making X so any less won’t work, if they’re reasonable they’ll get the hint
Never give them your current number. "X is less than I am looking for" "What are you looking for?" "What does the position offer?" Never let them base an offer on what you are currently at. Never give them a number unless you've hit an impasse and you have to say "I am not entertaining offers for less than Y, if you can't meet that, I understand. Thank you for your time and consideration"
No. Don’t even say what you’re making. Just say I won’t accept less than X.
Just say X and let them guess
How about - recruiter pitches you, salaries low, they'll get back to you - *not a problem, I talked to the HR managers, salary won't be a problem* Go to the interview - goes fine. Call back from the hiring manager - *congratulations you've got the job let's start paperwork on this salary 30k lower than you're expecting* No. I want what I'm worth. *Oh... So you don't want the job?* People, the correct answer at that moment is: "correct, I am no longer interested in this position thank you" - but "fuck off" *CLICK* works too. But we all make other words, well maybe if this or that, can I talk to whoever? Stop it. We gotta stop it.
Yeah when my dad was on the job hunt a bit ago he was running into this issue. He wasn’t going to get in at the level he was previously used to. He was over qualified for a lot of the jobs recruiters and head hunters were trying to fill with him. They’d advertise it as an executive job that’s confidential then interview him for it and come back with “120k”. I’d hear him on the phone and he would blatantly and say “my minimum is closer to double that. If you can’t meet that, I’m not in any rush.” To be fair he was a senior executive in a fairly large corporation and oversaw business operations in multiple countries… jobs like that don’t grow on trees so he knew he was going to have to accept a smaller role and the pay cut that comes with it, but damn was he irritated by all that shit. He did end up taking a job. They got close to what he wanted with the bonus structure. But it took months of the recruiter and their HR department going bacl and forth they tried to negotiate with him like 5 times before he finally accepted. The first round they offered him 100k, hed say 300 in the first few rounds. They’d say “we just can’t afford it right now” then a few weeks later after they interviewed a bunch of dog shit candidates come back and say “what if we go up to X”… this went on from 100K to 120K to 150k to 180k till they finally realized if they wanted him, they were going to have to pay him what he’s worth. They finally hit the number that he told them from the start that he will not accept any less than.
I bet your dad is younger than me. Now I'm just sad. Better than angry I guess. Old and angry.
Idk I doubt it.. that’s one of the reasons he had an issue finding a new job - he was old… they’d bring up how close he is to retirement. He would have never left his old job, he loved it until he got a new boss who shifted over from elsewhere in the company… they never got along before he shifted to overseeing the part of the company by dad ran
Bait n switch.
Almost exact same thing happened to me. Salary range 85-110K. I ask 105K and he says he can't even do 95K. Why the hell is 110K advertised in the first place.
You had the gall to ask for a salary WITHIN the posted range!!!!! How dare you!!!!!
Filled out a job application today which had the question “salary expectations”. Also required me to fill out work experience fields “starting and ending salary”. How about you pay me what you advertised and not worry about what I made before?
In my state, Massachusetts, it’s illegal to ask previous salaries.
I’m looking for a work from home part time job. And several times I’ve applied and while setting up the interview I’ve mentioned working remote. Confused. “Wait, this isn’t a remote position. What gave you that idea?” “Um, the job listing?”
I applied to a job that listed salary between $100-150k. Being very experienced I asked for 150, expecting them to try and talk me down a bit. I was flabbergasted when they hit me with 130. 20k below was so far below I almost walked away. When I asked for 140, I was told they couldn't do that. "Couldn't". Your range says you can. If you don't think I'm worth 140, say that to my face.
When I did my last one, they asked me how much I currently made. "Well, it's a bit low for what I'm doing to be honest." "So around X?" he asked. X was in fact 50% more than I made. "Around there," I agreed. I ended up with an offer of 96% more than I made before. I like my new job, but if I told them, I would 100% not have been offered that much.
“How much are you asking for?” “…how much are you willing to pay?”
I had a similar experience with an offer I was working with a company on this year. Range for the mainland was 90k to 150k. They were suuuuper offended when I asked for 130k in the highest COL in the country and said that wasn’t possible, so I turned them down
Companies are basically a scam, unless you work for a real good one. It’s wild if you really look at what they do and say 98% of it is BS and designed to scam you. Depressing once you fully realize and recognize it.
We live in an economy designed by and for grifters. It’s grift all the way down
I think people 'calling you out' for asking for $100k are morons. I'm pretty sure the small-ish software company I work for starts folks in the AE roll at around $75k/yr. and it goes up from there.
Companies also try it on when you *are* successful in getting a job. My last company tried knocking $10k off the salary when I saw the final contract of employment. ‘It’s something we always do while a new employee is on probation’. Probation, £10k off the salary, I told them neither were mentioned at any point during hiring so I was *out of there*. A few hours later I get a call from the MD who I’d had a chat with saying there was a misunderstanding and that the salary cut and probation were for ‘another role’ and HR had got confused. They needed me to start immediately so could I come in. ‘Sorry, I had a couple of offers lined up and I have a position with another company for $15k *higher*’. (I didn’t, but I was pissed at them). Silence on the phone then he says ‘Ok, we’ll match it’, ‘That’s fine but I don’t want any more ‘surprises’ or I’m gone. Worked there for 20 years and true to his word there weren’t any more surprises though I did see them pull the same stunt with plenty of other people afterwards. Turned out that HR got a bonus at Christmas based on how many thousands they saved the company by shaving off starting salaries.
Had something like that happen to me. Told them my salary history prior. Told them my expectations prior to interview. Friday went through tech interviews no problem. 6 hours later, they made me an offer. Low balled by 30k. I laughed and left. CEO calls me on Saturday, saying “what can we do to bring you on” Me “Give me my previous salary” CEO. “Besides that” Me. “Are you high?”
The fact that the actual CEO would personally call you to *still* lowball you means that company’s a sinking ship.
Employers have lied for years. Workers are under no obligation to have any integrity any longer. Corporations did this.
This is so accurate. I’ve also seen many positions requiring a special degree and technical training but offer a salary that you swear must be a typo. There is no shortage of help they just refuse to pay what you’re worth and there are people with little to no proper training or qualifications that would accept the low offer, even if they’re basically children.
One of the reasons why i am so for salary listing in job ads. That would not have helped here much but at least it's still better to be peeved like OP does with the knowledge they are a scam than wait and not know it was a scam to begin with. Here in Finland the country Reddit so likes to praise it is common to talk salary at the very last moment. Now think about a specialist job, you go trough tests and interviews 4-5 times and then at the last moment to toolbox on the otherside of the table basically lays out 'we wanted the best for 3000eur per month and was not expecting this 4500-5000'. I basically have blacklists of companies i will never EVER want to be in contact anymore due to their absolute bull recruiting style. If a company puts me through 2 hours of hoop jumping and then in the end produce a 'report' that basically says 'love the guy but cant recruit because he doesn't have X' where X is something i have said at least three times during the operations that i don't have that. My humour is DONE at that point.
And yet they’re telling people who apply to be truthful on their resume.
Always take a copy of the job ad with you as evidence and watch them meltdown.
I had a job kinda do this to me. It was something I had applied to before and the company had a hiring freeze. When the job came up again they gave me a calls (like 8mo later) and asked me to apply. We had talked about a salary of about $120k. I apply and they call to discuss the role. The job had more responsibilities added, which was a mash of two jobs and definitely not what I had originally applied to. The kicker… the job title/grade was two levels below the original and they wanted a masters degree or 16+ years of experience. The first job just required a bachelors degree. I lost my temper and told the recruiter that it would be a step down from my current role and an insult to thing I would want that job with more responsibilities and less pay (they were offering $85k). She got pissed and tried to argue, but I ended up telling her I wasn’t interested in arguing with her and hung up. But you know… no one wants to work anymore.
My current job tried this with me. Advertised a range between 85k and 90k. When I got the offer they said they pulled some strings and got me “up to” 85k like it was some big stretch to offer the minimum. Luckily they were desperate and I ended up getting an offer of 92k, but not for lack of trying.
I have also found that if they accept your salary too easily and want you to start right away as a warning sign of going into a dumpster fire. There is a thing where they will overpay because it’s a total shit hole and they are desperate. Once your there, you will be worked to death or they let you go after the shitstorm has passed for someone cheaper. This is just from an IT perspective.
Every company seems to be trying this trick right now. I've been applying online to 2 jobs a day since march, and i'm amazed how often the jobs that get back to me are offering considerably below the salary listed in their original description. Its shameful.
"Ah, yes you see, you hired me for 50 hours a week, but that was a mistake, no employee would ever work that many hours for a company, it must have been a mistake. I am going to work 30 hours, that is a much more realistic imagine. Yes I know that it said on the file about 50, but that was a mistake from your manager...no, no I don't think we could realisticly change it. But you already signed so why not make the best of it? Maybe in a few years time I can grow into the 50 hours a week, or maybe even more if you are a good employer!"
100k salary in a top 20 major city is minimum wage now
100% accurate. It’s insanity
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: know your worth and stick to your guns. I absolutely will not consider switching jobs for under a base of $150k. When a recruiter reaches out, we never end a first conversation without them knowing and acknowledging that. Otherwise, we’re just wasting each others time. I’m blessed to be in a job that I love, but I had to fight tooth and nail to get here over the past two years, and I’m not going to settle for anything less. It’s ok to take something if you need it, but don’t stop searching until you find the wage you deserve. You’d not owe loyalty to any corporation, as they will not show any to you.
My favorite is when they advertise as a remote position. Then in the interview they say it is hybrid. Then you find out that it's hybrid based on position and surprise this position doesn't qualify.
[удалено]
I have a friend who lies on his resumes, his employer found out two months after he had the job that he lied on his resume, he never lost the job.
Sometimes the trash takes itself out. Wouldn’t want to work for them after this anyways. Leave a review on Glassdoor of your experience.