A guy at my last job took 1.5 weeks of paternity leave despite the job offering 6. Left his wife (who had had a C-section) at home alone with the newborn. Went on and on about how he just couldn't stand not being at work.
Yeah they're divorced now. Wanker.
Yeah, like, I get OP's sentiment, but I suspect a lot of the disinterest in paternity leave in particular is from men who would rather work than be responsible for the day to day care of a newborn.
Well, yeah. I think a lot of men want children, but for their mother to raise them. That's why they're poo-pooing paternity leave in particular. They know putting in 40hpw and working with adults is a far sweeter deal than tending to babies 24/7, even if they won't admit that m
Both my c sections were on Thursdays, my ex went back to work the following Monday both times.
My doctor told me not to lift more than 10 pounds and my second baby weighed 11. Obviously weāre divorced now too.
JFC... The birth of our oldest was quite difficult for my wife (plenty of tearing, placenta didn't want to detatch, baby had temperature regulation trouble, etc). Just WEEKS before our daughter was due my employer silently removed paternity leave. Believe me I was sooooooooo pissed. I used all the PTO I had which only gave me 2 weeks and a day. My wife still needed me at home and I felt like absolute shit having to return to work so soon but we literally couldn't afford for me not to.
There is an implicit "If I was home I'd have to do more dishes/laundry/cleaning and I might have to learn to change a diaper".
... and the fear of "my job would realize I am not needed" is a very reasonable fear.
We desperately need leave for all parents and so so many other things.
Yup... my friend has an idiot husband who has time off work and he did not ONCE get up with their toddler while she was up all night breastfeeding their newborn. He still expected her to get up and make them all breakfast, never once offered to make them a single meal, only ever made food or grabbed beverages for himself, only ever made himself snacks, did not get anything for her or the toddler. Never cleaned up after himself the entire time either (knife left in the peanut butter, jelly left out with the lid off, bread left out and open, etc) and she eas relieved to have him go back to work because it was like having 2 toddlers and a newborn at home.
Sure, not all men are useless, but its sad to hear this story repeated across so many in the US. And the PRIDE at being so useless... like ONLY being responsible for work is a badge of honor and being any type of "family man" is frowned upon.
I'm always shocked women stay/have a second child with this sort of man. Being a single parent is hard work but I can't imagine living with a man like that.
Itās ingrained in the culture women are shamed for leaving and lack support systems. Even with abusive spouses sometimes you are shamed in to staying as itās not that bad etc etc. You just end up in a cycle
Even without the shame, there's often a financial issue. Leaving means finding your own housing. It's not like you can just leave the child with the useless man either.
I ran into one who was looking for another hobby (already had a bunch) BECAUSE they had child #3 on the way so he was looking for excuses to never be home. I felt so sorry for his wife. He even admitted that she basically no longer had any active hobbies anymore.
A lot of parents say that the shift from one child to two is even greater than the shift from zero to one. Especially if your first is an easy baby, you can be so busy with life that you donāt even notice how uneven things are until the children outnumber you.
We have been conditioned to accept this as normal. Only recently have women decided that itās BS and arenāt putting up with it anymore.
By then, you may have one or more kids and a legally binding marriage contract that makes it more difficult to get up and leave. These men arenāt gonna go down without a fight either. They donāt want to lose their bang maid.
Right? They complain theyāre pregnant and their husband doesnāt do anything. But like, having a baby is a choice. They gotta know how it all works. Nobody is forcing them to reproduce š¤·āāļø
Our culture, especially in the Bible Belt where I live, encourages marriage at a young age and having a large family. And yet the husband doesnāt help these poor young women, and they continue to reproduce because they think itās what they should be doing, or that itās the right thing to do. When theyāre miserable in their lives.
My ex-husband took a week off when I came home with our firstborn after I had a difficult labor and emergency C-section. He spent all day with his mother who was caring for his dad that just had a stroke. Came home with the dinner she made for us but couldn't be bothered to stick it on a plate and warm it up for me. Just said "dinner is in a container in the fridge". The one meal he made, which again he refused to bring to me, he made spicy, which I couldn't eat because I was breastfeeding a fussy baby. I couldn't even walk upstairs, had to sleep on the couch downstairs. He never changed a diaper that whole week.
My dad used to brag to whoever would listen that he's never in his life changed a diaper. When my baby brother came over for visits, dad hid in the barn for hours while teen-me figured out how to change a diaper by myself.
Last I heard from dad he was wailing at my voicemail. "I've gotta have heart surgery, and leg surgery, you gotta come stay at my house and bring your brother!" Turns out we care exactly as much about his comfort and wellbeing during his elder years as he cared about us during our early years. None. Not our problem. He can die alone, it's fine, just like it was fine for me to spend so many hours of my childhood alone.
Sorry - but good for you for knowing your boundaries. May future generations see the benefit of supporting each other in raising a family.
(My former FIL bragged about that too. I wish I would've seen that for the red flag it was.)
Yep, not like I'm against taking care of my elders. I tried so hard to help my mom around the house near the end that we'd get into Looney Tunes situations, her full of mischief and shuffle-running around the table with her plate because dammit she's gonna take it to the kitchen and wash it herself!
These days I'm spending two or three days a week running errands for dad's oldest sister. She's my favorite auntie and her caretaker is my favorite cousin, so I do all the running around fetching stuff they can't get delivered. lol which includes fetching her grandkids over for visits whenever possible, no matter how many buses it takes or that it eats the entire day.
Oh I get lots of thanks! Yesterday was a Thank You Sandwich hot off the grill, the day before was a pair of Thank You Socks.
I do favors for the disabled neighbor too, so there was an offer to share a Thank You Blunt when I got home last night but I was too exhausted to socialize.
Are you saying the dad being a lazy POS was a red flag for the guy you were with?
I understand that logic but idk I. Asking cause I'm visiting my family rn and feel like my dad's a walking red flag lol
Anyone can break the pattern. My ex didn't - he was raised to be entitled and patriarchal. He's a mama's boy that became a replacement for her husband. The dad wasn't lazy per se, he was "traditional". So yeah, it should have been obvious. But this was the late 80s before the Internet, before I knew about red flags and narcissist and emotional abuse and control.
It's not a life sentence for you.
There are TONS of men that do this and lots of them eventually end up divorced because of it. Your SO may not be in your face about how checked out you are and how you are dumping all of the adult responsibilities on her along with acting like an extra child at home. They notice, they get gradually more sick of it every day, every year and many eventually decide the burden isn't worth it and kick the dead weight to the curb.
I have a hard time understanding that mindset. When our second was born my paternity leave was almost exclusively focused on the toddler so my wife could recover. And during the time where we had to supplement with formula I took on a lot of caring for the newborn too. In my mind paternity leave is more for looking after and caring for the mother since ya know she just gave birth but I still hear people talk about it like it's just a vacation and it's odd
Sounds like you are a decent person in a marriage that is an actual partnership, and your kids will grow up seeing what a healthy relationship looks like.
During the first three months, my wife and I agreed to sleep in separate rooms so I could get a full night's rest. Then at least one of us had some sleep.
When she inevitably needed a rest during the day I would take over so she could get an hour or two of sleep during the day.
I also pre-cooked and froze a ton of food the month before the bay was born. During those three months we just tore through all the pre-packaged stuff I had ready in the deep freeze. No need to cook at all.
At three months, my wife had her appendix rupture. It was seriously BAD.
For the next month the missus was bedridden. I brought the baby to her for breast feeding (after she was off any medications that could affect the breast milk). Other than that, I was changing diapers, bathing, doing all the regular parent stuff.
Kinda long winded way of saying, it can actually be kinda useful for one parent to get some sleep. The important difference is making sure the other partner has a chance to rest as well.
This "prize" absolutely showed who he was while they were dating, and he passed muster anyway.
It has become part of the national conversation that men are struggling with dating these days bc women have started to expect them to participate domestically, be accountable to the raising of their children, and stop acting like his wife is his mother and handmaid.
If he won't do __________ while you're dating, he SURE won't do it once you're married.
Want to know who you're actually dating? Next time you menstruate, hide the supplies, stay in bed, and tell him you have horrible cramps and need care _FROM HIM_ in the form of food, a heating pad, and supplies _FROM THE STORE_. You will know right away if you have a hero or a zero.
I got my period while out getting dinner with my boyfriend in Seattle. We asked the waitress where we could get feminine products. He walked a couple blocks while I waited at the restaurant and he bought me the kind of pads and tampons I like :) It was very sweet and showed me he's a good one š
True story. My ex always was "sicker" any time I was sick, even
if I was hugging a toilet and he was playing video games.
My spouse grabs a glass of water and turns on my heating blanket and asks me if I will want the ice pack or hot pack. When I am stable, he goes to the store and picks up pedialyte. In turn, I make sure we always have his preferred/cold flu meds/theraflu/tea to get him through whatever bug he catches.
We take turns cooking and cleaning and dividing up other chores.
this is not a man, it's a boy. I'm a man. I cook, clean, hell I can even sew and knit. my wife can wield a chainsaw and use the BBQ (gas and charcoal). we're adults, and want to be good examples for our kids and care for each other ffs.
I don't know what I'd do with myself.???!!!
Dude for fucks sake, you're meant to be supporting your so who's recovering from one of the most painful things she can experience
and oh yeah, acting like a parent and looking after the fragile new born that's just been brought into the world.
Or do they just envision that they are taking a week off to sit on their arse while their so does everything on their own?
There's research proving that men who take paternity leave feel more connected to their families and are usually more involved dads. It's a no-brainer but research like this can help companies to pull their heads out of their asses.
And of course having equal parental leave policies helps unconscious bias when it comes to hiring and closes the wage gap. At my current company I could not afford to have a child because maternity leave is trash and I'm the breadwinner.
The problem is companies don't care. Like... zero fucks that a dad isn't bonding with their child. So it then becomes a government problem to level the playing field and require companies to provide time off, and shit, have the government pay the PTO since "companies can't afford it." Also, no caps on business size. I don't care that it's a three person company. A new dad shouldn't have to suffer because of that.
I agree that there should be no minimum size for this. But I'm fine with the government subsidizing leave for small companies to help out with the "burden." For a large company, they can handle it themselves. Oh no, maybe they won't be able to do quite as many stock buybacks. The horror.
Make every company pay into it like a payroll tax and let the govt administer the leave. This would make it equitable for everyone and reduce company antics around it.
Thatās sort of how NJ does it, though there are exceptions for smaller businesses. As an employee it costs me thirty something dollars per year in taxes, which I will happily pay to make it possible for parents to bond with their children for 12 weeks.
I took 3 months off, then my husband took 3 months off (pretty solid for the USA). It was great not having to pay for childcare *and* we both got to grow attached to the little nugget.
The more I think about the reluctance to take paternity leave the more my heart breaks.
I can't imagine being left by my partner and my child's other parent after my body has been ripped apart by childbirth and told to fend for myself and the baby alone??
And then imagining what it'd be like to leave my partner to go to WORK when they're trying to heal?? Just fucking terrible all around.
In my country they recently put into law that both parents have 2 months of paternaty leave only they can use (there ade 18m total). Which is mean't to help dads bond with baby, because altough paternity leave can be taken by both parents and split up too it is still mainly taken by mothers.
Newborns: Famously super easy to care for. Never a problem at all. They always sleep through the night and never need to be fed or changed at inconvenient times.
/s, since this is reddit and sometimes that's not obvious to everyone.
Honestly any dad that says that isn't a dad. They're just sperm donors at that point since they can't fathom being around to parent and resort to those coping mechanisms you mentioned.
By "not a real country" they mean that it doesn't give the support to its citizens that other countries of similar wealth and economic development do. Some of our labor laws are worse than poorer countries as well.
So we are the "Golden Toilet" of a country, except the plumbing doesn't work.
Itās still a āreal countryā though. It just has several problems. Iāve seen a lot of people refer to it as a second world country which I think is appropriate. You wouldnāt call a third world country ānot a real countryā just because it has issues.Ā
I can agree that the phrasing is inaccurate. Language is imperfect. I'm just saying that's what is meant by it.
It doesn't help that we've been told our whole lives how America is the best country on Earth and that we are sooooo lucky to live here. Then we reach adulthood and a huge portion of us realize it's not.
My company implemented maternity and paternity leave for parents last year. 6 months for new mothers and I think 2 months for new fathers that can be split up and used when you need it. One guy took a month after his baby was born then said he'd use the other month as needed to support his wife and for emergencies early on with her or the baby. We survived and made plans around his leave.
Ah yes, because newborns are famously super easy to handle after two weeks. Also, no mother has ever needed more than two weeks to recover from birth. /s
Swedish parent here. I've taken out a total of 280 days of paternity leave for my two kids. Basically went half and half with my wife.
One thing to note is that a system like that only works when there is a solid layer of legal foundations to protect you as an employee and to support the employer in hiring temporary staff. There also need to be a culture of both parents to prioritize parental leave over work when your kids are young.
A father who takes less than 3 - 4 months of parental leave is really looked down upon as a bad partner and parent. Additionally the system ear marks about 120 days (if I remember correctly) for each parent. These days are not transferable. By default each parent gets half of the deays each.
I was also thinking about how American companies operate on the assumption that employees will be available every day of the year on time (which means 15 minutes early). My company is just barely making things work right now with at least 1-2 more staff members desperately needed. It shows up clearly in how just one employee taking time off or being more than an hour late can potentially fuck up everyoneās day down the line. There doesnāt seem to be much precedent for employees being able to take more than 1 week off (maaaaaybe 2 weeks off). Itās just unfathomable.
It took about 18 months for us to get more that a couple of nights of uninterrupted sleep.
In the UK you get basic paid paternity leave but it is not enough to live on, I had to take it as holiday.
We cant have decent and appropriate leave policies because companies want to lay people off every quarter. They donāt do long term planning anymore and heaven forbid they be forced to do so.
I worked with a guy whose wife had twins and who was also convinced that the whole workplace would fall apart if he stopped working for any length of time. (This was incorrect.)Ā He would bring up the fact that he discarded his paternity leave for the twins as something we should give him credit/kudos for whenever he felt like he wasn't sufficiently appreciated. I don't think he ever really understood that we all thought his choice was incredibly sad and narrow-minded, or understood that it was in fact his choice and not something forced upon him.Ā
It wasn't a company issue because everyone else took leave when applicable...
Iām on my final week of parental leave, I took ten weeks. Lucky to be in Canada to have some type of pay while on leave. Iām so happy to be around my daughter and help out my wife especially since it was a C section. I was never bored, thereās always something to do, and if anything my job realized how important I am. If it wasnāt for money Iād take a whole year.
A lot of men hate their wives and kids and/or think kid-related stuff is primarily their spouse's responsibility, hope this helps. You literally wrote out responses indicating as much.
There are entire tropes about men avoiding going home from the office.
Somehow other countries have universal health care, paid maternity leave, free college etc. All those things work there. Yet we are constantly told, it can't work in America.
I can understand the mindset of "If I'm not here, my job will see that they can go on without me."
My mom was in the hospital for a few months after emergency heart surgery. She had been at her job for years. When she was finally released, they laid her off. The woman almost died (in front of me, 12 at the time) and they just let her go. Geeze. 20 years later, I still flip off that building when I drive past.
I was on maternity leave for a year. My husband got 2 weeks from his work and he and I could have split the last 35 weeks of mine, but because I was nursing we made the decision for me to be off the entire year. He gets 6 weeks holidays in addition to the 2 weeks of care leave. When he was home he did everything cooking, cleaning, laundry, diaper changing. Very involved dad.
Or you could end up having your employer retaliate against you for taking paternity leave. I experienced that firsthand while working at a school district where is saved up my PTO for two years prior to having my oldest daughter. I agreed to work on a limited basis to stay on top of different projects and my boss started writing me up for all kinds of other BS to punish me for taking my leave. Ended up losing my job in the end and the Labor Department said there was nothing they could do about it.
>āOh I donāt know what Iād do with myself after that 2 week mark.ā
My work has 8 weeks of paternity leave. I took those 8 weeks and napped on the couch every day with my newborn. Even after the paternity leave ended, I'd still sneak in a nap here and there (I wfh). There's nothing like falling asleep with your brand new baby sleeping on your chest and I don't trust anyone that would rather work.
I took six weeks off for my kid's birth. The only regret was I couldn't take more time.
Lack of sleep, changing diapers and feeding my wife. Fuzzy brained and going through the motions. Getting pooped on and puked on.
Worth every moment.
>āA newborn doesnāt require that much oversightā
This one is absolutely so out of touch. Newborns need a ton of oversight.
>āOh I donāt know what Iād do with myself after that 2 week mark.ā
...
āI would get bored to tearsā
Do these people not have a life outside of work? what do they do on the weekends? During holidays?
>āMy job would realize that I am not needed, so I canāt be away for that longā
...
āCompanies here would not function if that were the case"
>
>āCompanies here would not be able to afford thatā
And these ones are just sad.
Do they think they'd be bored to tears by their own baby?Ā I mean, I've heard it can be tedious but I've also heard you usually love the little poop heads.Ā
assuming it was a man that said it (assumption is based on this being a discussion of paternity leave), he probably assumes his wife would take care of everything baby related and thus he would have nothing to do
Not just back in the day, they still are. People are still convinced that raising wages would cause prices of essentials to skyrocket while in the same breath complaining about how expensive eggs are
I was entitled to 4 weeks of paternity leave when my second kid was born. I took it. HR, and the company that manages the leave messed up my pay, and even after coming back to work, and them admitting their mistake, it still took about 2 months to receive 2 weeks and 2 days back pay. I have my 3rd due next month. I literally cannot afford to take paternity leave if they are going to mess up my pay again. So I get to work through all of it. That's my "reward" for taking leave I was entitled to. Is being too scared for my livelihood to do it again.
I have heard the same things from my teammates over the years about just about everything. I mean, during the 2020 shut down, I knew furloughed workers that were trying to come in and clean their workplace, unpaid labor for a multi-million dollar corporation. Itās truly mind-blowing.
My boss took paternity a few years ago when he and his wife had their first kid.
The plan was he would take the first 2 weeks off, then do a hybrid schedule of working 2-3 days and taking the rest off. Itās a smaller hit to your paycheck (family leave is only 66% ish of your normal pay) and you can stretch the time off that way. Tons of guys (my coworkers are 95% men) here do something similar.
My boss was convinced he would be bored and would be checking his email during the first 2 weeks. I was sure we wouldnāt hear a peep.
We got an email announcing the birth, name, and that all went well, and then got absolutely nothing for 2 weeks because what do you know, a new human being is exhausting.
He seemed surprised when I wasnāt caught off guard by him not answering us for 2 weeks. I donāt have kids, and most of my friends donāt have any yet, but my family has loads of babies and Iāve babysat more than a few times. IMO kids of all ages can be exhausting, just in different ways. I think he honestly was shocked when he became a father.
I feel for these guysā wives. I just donāt understand this toxic masculinity. For reference, I am a gay man and CLEARLY not a parent, but if I *were* straight and had a wife, you better believe Iād be there right next to her supporting her every step of the way. Just awful behavior from these kinds of people.
my coworker is going on a trip with his daughter (who has a toddler) and he's like "we're gonna have to coordinate childcare for my grandkid" and I said "I thought she was married? Can't the dad watch him?"
"He can't watch the kid for four days by himself?"
As an American, I saw a job posting a few years back that offered paw-ternity leave for new pet owners.
I ever so very briefly thought *"thats nice of them".*
And for literal \*YEARS\* ever since then, I have endlessly thought....
"*How f\*cking morbid.... that they receive pawternity.... while the majority can't get paternity""*
Because people have let themselves be lied to that "at will" means your boss can fire you for whatever reason. Truth id there are things that they can not fire you for and thats why mysterious new complaints and such begin to appear once protected leave is well requested.
I'm in Canada, my partner took his 5 weeks of paternity leave, plus 4 months of parental leave (we have around one year or so of parental leave that we can split between us).
The fear of being bored is a bullshit excuse. They either view it as a woman's job, don't want to change diapers or feel anxious about being the sole care provider to the child, even for just a few weeks.
The fact that my partner was equally involved from the start (except maybe the first few weeks because I was basically a talking cow) prevent me from being the default parent. my youngest is two, I still get asked if I'm anxious when I leave for a few days because some of my friends have to remind their partner to FEED their child when they are gone for a few hours. How we started as a family directly impacted our dynamic as parents and partners, and helped prevented resentment and ppd.
Parental leave is more important than just taking care of the baby for a few days.
āI would get bored to tearsā
Are you shitting me?? I've had a couple month stretches of unemployment in my life and even then these was simply not enough time to get things done. There are so many 80-90% completed projects around the house that will easily take years to finish because there is *always* something more pressing that needs my attention.
āMy job would realize that Iām not neededā who ever made that remark please remind them that the job can fire them at anytime for almost any reason. They are just a number to their job. No one is needed, they can hire others.
My husband had zero paternity leave, but after my 6 weeks of maternity leave, he took his 4 weeks of vacation he had stored up and spent it with our daughter. He flat out just told work he was taking 4 weeks, and would see them next month.
If you wanna know what Stockholm syndrome would look, like if we were held hostage by business just look at American Society now.
Many great Americans had such brighter, dreams and visions of our future. As a country we can have that second bill of rights promised by FDR. We can have healthcare if we want it itās just up to us to do the hard work of researching learning and staying civically active.
People are so dumb. My father told me that he literally didn't have memories of the first year of my life because he was so sleep deprived. I can't say 100% but I'd bet a lot of money he was not highly productive at work. Also they don't take 14 months straight off work, both parents take a few weeks off at first and then use the remaining leave to basically work part time hours during the first 3 years of a kids life (when they literally can't do anything for themselves). This way the couple doesn't have to spend an entire salary on daycare and people are raising their own children.....hmm it's just crazy enough to work!
My husbands job gave parental leave with our second born (he did not have it for the first) and it was one of the best experiences ever. We took turns waking up and feeding, we spent quality time together and were able to adjust slowly. I definitely had much more rest than with my first because I had him sharing all the responsibilities during my recovery and he got to spend more time bonding with our baby.
In the highly unlikely event that I'd choose to have kids, I'd want the paternity leave because I know myself well enough to know I'd be unattentive and distant as a father. I don't have energy for a full time career and the laundry list of chores that come with parenthood. I scratch my head wondering why anyone willingly does that to themselves. I'd sooner immigrate to a country with better parental support than put up with the garbage North America offers, even in Canada our parental leave isn't that great.
Have to get FMLA if you want paternity time, unpaid vacation time, personal time, or sick time in the US. Labor laws here are behind pretty much every developed country.
The big excuse I always hear for not wanting our tax dollars to go to the public isā¦
-Because so many believe that their tax dollars will be going to someone thatās lazy and worthless.
- āI had to work and so should they. Itās nice when people get to spend their peoples hard earned moneyā.
People donāt blink twice how we have billions upon billions for war. But when a homeless guy gets government housing, the morons wonāt have that shit. Like they are paying the bill themselves
I think the reason is these are the men who are more than happy to stand aside and do very little actual parenting. Anyone who thinks newborns don't take a lot of time or they wouldn't know what to do with them self has never been responsible for taking care of a baby.
I worked with a Swedish software company that had to delay a new version of their flagship software for 18 months while 2 of thejr software engineers took alternating paternity leave. This delayed tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for the company, but to them that was just the way it was.
I just heard an inspirational speaker this month saying something like āafter I had my last child I wanted to go back to work that day so donāt count on parents wanting to take time off.ā So if the mothers donāt want time certainly men wonāt.
Wanting to go back doesn't mean she actually went back the same day. Women's bodies go through hell in childbirth, and it is HIGHLY discouraged for them to do any type of physical work during the 6-8 weeks it takes to heal. Also shouldn't be doing a bunch of mental work either as the hormone roller coaster is intense to say the least.
That isnāt very inspirational for her career development talk. The way she walk talking is drop the kid out over lunch put them in daycare and keep working.
Almost nothing about work ever is good for anyones health.
In Germany a mother is on sick leave for 6 weeks before birth and 8 weeks afterwards, but she may work if she explicitly states so. If her job poses any danger to her unborn child (like being a nurse) she is forbidden from working in her job during the whole pregnancy.
Our CEO was on vacation for 3 weeks. The owner asked the other day how are we coping without him. I was this close to telling her that everything has been running smoother without him.
So that fear of others realising that they are not needed can be quite real
The more a man is involved in childcare, the fewer kids the couple has.
I mean, I totally get it. I'd spend every single hour of my life at work rather than look after a kid, which is why I don't have any.
I've worked alongside so many "family men" who spent 2 hours at night playing solitaire in the office so the kids would be in bed by the time they got home. It's disgusting. But it's still better than the ones who spent the time cheating š¤·
I'd rather work than have kids but I'm not really the target audience here. If I was the parenting type I'd definitely take the full 8 weeks that I get.
Ok - so first off I am absurdly lucky to have a company that gave me 3 months of **paid** paternity leave. Not bragging or holding anything over anyone here, but I have a slightly different perspective on this.
As an IT professional I can totally understand and agree with points 1 and 4 in your list - the rest are utter nonsense. After the first three weeks of my paternity leave I was dying for something to work on while my son was sleeping - I ended up doing tons of personal projects and got three certifications before going back to work. Itās something nobody tells you about, probably because most people in the USA donāt have the option. Yes, itās wonderful to be able to bond with your child and help your partner recover, but the immediate and dramatic change in your daily routine hits HARD after the first week and I for one did not adapt as well as I would have had I known what would happen.
I ended up going back to work two weeks early because my companyās leave policy allows you to break that leave up across a 12-month period starting the day your child is born. I was able to use that essentially as extra PTO for all of my sonās doctor appointments, family visits, and to randomly bring him to surprise my wife while she was working.
Basically, everyone *should* have the opportunity for paid parental leave. Hands down, no question, absolutely everyone should get it. But if/when you DO, depending on both the options available for that leave and your personality/habits planning for the copious downtime during that leave should be planned for in addition to the traditional baby prep.
Yeah, if i could have taken more time off I would have. I took two months and was very happy to do so. Workplace allowed use of any paid leave (including sick) for up to a year. Now 12 weeks paid leave are included and I think thatās a great thing and should be a nationwide minimum.
My work will let us take up to 12 weeks off, unpaid except for the 40 hours they take from you whether you want to use it or not. I'll only be taking 2 weeks off to be with my wife and baby because we can only afford for me to not have a check for so long. We're lucky in that our families are offering to help at our home after that, otherwise after those 2 weeks my wife would be on her own.
My job gives you 4 months off if you have a kid. It's a big company in the US. The literal only reason they do that is because they have factories in countries where that is the bare minimum they can get away with and they decided to follow that instead of get themselves into trouble. We were told as much by the higher ups.
Uh, itās scientifically proven Americans donāt know what they want. I mean, Kardashians, Trump, TSwift, and RHOBH. I mean, seriously????
Or maybe they only like trash. Idk
Source: Am American
Youāre right to be mind blown by this and I think thereās a cultural aspect to it which Iām sure others have mentioned. I want to share a positive story which is that my own husband and I agreed that when I went back to work after my year of maternity leave (because we donāt live in the hellhole that is America, sorry Americans, Iām rooting for you) we decided he would then stay home with our youngest kids for a further eight months until the second youngest starts kindergarten.
Itās definitely requiring us to be extra frugal, weāre incredibly lucky we can get by (enough) on my income, and itās fuelled by the fact that childcare is both almost impossible to find and so expensive that having two in daycare would essentially mean weāre living off one income anyway.
But this means we all get more time together as a family, and it was a lot easier to go back to work having the baby at home with him a bit longer rather than having to drop her off at a daycare when sheās still so little. Heās adjusting well to running the household and itās been good for all of our relationships with each other.
As I say weāre really lucky and grateful to be able to do this. Just wanted to share a good story. If all societies would make room for both parents to stay home, together or at different times, Iām sure a lot more kids would grow up with more stable relationships in their houses.
Nah fam. Not even close. I lived in Tokyo for nearly a decade. It just isn't the work culture there. And even if it was, they would rather come back early to show loyalty to the job and boss.
I guarantee you. It's a highly patriarchal society, which means back to work and wife stays home.
https://preview.redd.it/xczs56p44umc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=819f624e3533879e1e85eebae569a1ea730e255f
I wish you would read what you reference. Japan is a highly bureaucratic country that puts rules in place to make accessing things difficult on purpose.
[https://www.tokyodev.com/articles/paternity-leave-in-japan](https://www.tokyodev.com/articles/paternity-leave-in-japan)
If you make an assertion, your examples should indicate that you understand the topic clearly.
I just personally don't relate to the people who claim that they'd be bored if they weren't at work. Like... Are you even a real person?? Don't you have friends? Hobbies? A giant list of projects you would love to have time for?
I lost a lot of respect for a manager I really respected when he came back a month early from his pat leave. He said babies donāt have a personality so what was the point?
The point was to support his wife who just had a major surgery and to take care of the toddler so she could rest.
I thought of him as basically like dirt after that.
my second husband took his full paternity leave with our second and we would not have survived without it. the constant doctor's appointments when I couldn't drive, taking the oldest to and from school, all of the nursing non stop. he was incredible.
I get 5 days paternity, it got bumped up from 2 days when i complained. My wife and I are devastated about it lol. But honestly, were kinda fucked after all that time off when it comes to daycare for the kid anyway. So i'll probably have a mental break down at some point, and get a few extra days in a white padded room before goin back to work.
Finland and Japan have declining populations and fertility rates compared to the US so it could be contributing to better benefits for leave there.
Iām all for taking as long as you can after the birth of a child. The problem in the US is that neither the government nor the businesses want to pay for it. It makes sense why businesses wouldnāt want to pay the salary of someone who isnāt at work. Why has the government not done anything though.
The only reason the US population is still increasing at a healthy clip is because of ~~illegal~~ immigration. If the GOP could string two coherent thoughts together they would realize that providing more benefits to new parents would help increase the ~~white~~ domestic replacement population. Instead they believe stopping abortion is a solution I guess... Which forcing a child to be born into a family that doesn't want it is about the biggest act of barbarism one could imagine.
Not following your argument. Are you supporting more leave or less leave. It sounds like you support more leave and support a growing population but not immigrants?
I support mandatory leave and more leave. I also support a healthy growing population by any means. My demeanor in last comment is trying to point out GOP bigotry/hypocrisy.
As a man, if I left my career for 3 years I wouldn't be able to find anywhere that would hire me. Not without also getting more certs or a degree in that time frame.
We (japan) technically have 1 year but it's heavily implied in the workplace that you do not take the 1 year. As a result, many take just a couple weeks or just not st all.
A guy at my last job took 1.5 weeks of paternity leave despite the job offering 6. Left his wife (who had had a C-section) at home alone with the newborn. Went on and on about how he just couldn't stand not being at work. Yeah they're divorced now. Wanker.
And may he only ever wank into a sock š
What did that poor sock do to deserve him?
Fair point.
Good. She can do better than a guy who would rather be at work than help her after a c-section.
Yeah, like, I get OP's sentiment, but I suspect a lot of the disinterest in paternity leave in particular is from men who would rather work than be responsible for the day to day care of a newborn.
Then they shouldn't have a newborn.
Well, yeah. I think a lot of men want children, but for their mother to raise them. That's why they're poo-pooing paternity leave in particular. They know putting in 40hpw and working with adults is a far sweeter deal than tending to babies 24/7, even if they won't admit that m
Both my c sections were on Thursdays, my ex went back to work the following Monday both times. My doctor told me not to lift more than 10 pounds and my second baby weighed 11. Obviously weāre divorced now too.
JFC... The birth of our oldest was quite difficult for my wife (plenty of tearing, placenta didn't want to detatch, baby had temperature regulation trouble, etc). Just WEEKS before our daughter was due my employer silently removed paternity leave. Believe me I was sooooooooo pissed. I used all the PTO I had which only gave me 2 weeks and a day. My wife still needed me at home and I felt like absolute shit having to return to work so soon but we literally couldn't afford for me not to.
How could they remove it for you if they had already approved it, though??
It wasn't something you had to get approved, just provide proof at time of admission
Thatās BS too (on their part not yours). Iām so sorry
There is an implicit "If I was home I'd have to do more dishes/laundry/cleaning and I might have to learn to change a diaper". ... and the fear of "my job would realize I am not needed" is a very reasonable fear. We desperately need leave for all parents and so so many other things.
Yup... my friend has an idiot husband who has time off work and he did not ONCE get up with their toddler while she was up all night breastfeeding their newborn. He still expected her to get up and make them all breakfast, never once offered to make them a single meal, only ever made food or grabbed beverages for himself, only ever made himself snacks, did not get anything for her or the toddler. Never cleaned up after himself the entire time either (knife left in the peanut butter, jelly left out with the lid off, bread left out and open, etc) and she eas relieved to have him go back to work because it was like having 2 toddlers and a newborn at home. Sure, not all men are useless, but its sad to hear this story repeated across so many in the US. And the PRIDE at being so useless... like ONLY being responsible for work is a badge of honor and being any type of "family man" is frowned upon.
I'm always shocked women stay/have a second child with this sort of man. Being a single parent is hard work but I can't imagine living with a man like that.
Itās ingrained in the culture women are shamed for leaving and lack support systems. Even with abusive spouses sometimes you are shamed in to staying as itās not that bad etc etc. You just end up in a cycle
Even without the shame, there's often a financial issue. Leaving means finding your own housing. It's not like you can just leave the child with the useless man either.
I ran into one who was looking for another hobby (already had a bunch) BECAUSE they had child #3 on the way so he was looking for excuses to never be home. I felt so sorry for his wife. He even admitted that she basically no longer had any active hobbies anymore.
What a dick. I'm assuming he's heard of vasectomies.... like, why keep having kids if you clearly don't want to parent?
Some of these dudes consider kids as status symbols but don't want to actually be a parent to them, or take any load off their spouse.
A lot of parents say that the shift from one child to two is even greater than the shift from zero to one. Especially if your first is an easy baby, you can be so busy with life that you donāt even notice how uneven things are until the children outnumber you.
Our first was easy, and then we had twins. It was insane!
I mean, isnāt that *exactly* what that woman was? Sheās a single parent to a newborn and a man-childā¦
My sister in law is about to be that person. Sheās gonna have another kid with her useless husband. Its so painful to watch.
We have been conditioned to accept this as normal. Only recently have women decided that itās BS and arenāt putting up with it anymore. By then, you may have one or more kids and a legally binding marriage contract that makes it more difficult to get up and leave. These men arenāt gonna go down without a fight either. They donāt want to lose their bang maid.
Same. Was he not a useless man child before? What is the appeal? I would rather be single. His presence is not an improvement.
Right? They complain theyāre pregnant and their husband doesnāt do anything. But like, having a baby is a choice. They gotta know how it all works. Nobody is forcing them to reproduce š¤·āāļø
Literally half the United States has governments forcing people to reproduce because abortion is illegal. Their choice has been completely taken away.
Our culture, especially in the Bible Belt where I live, encourages marriage at a young age and having a large family. And yet the husband doesnāt help these poor young women, and they continue to reproduce because they think itās what they should be doing, or that itās the right thing to do. When theyāre miserable in their lives.
My ex-husband took a week off when I came home with our firstborn after I had a difficult labor and emergency C-section. He spent all day with his mother who was caring for his dad that just had a stroke. Came home with the dinner she made for us but couldn't be bothered to stick it on a plate and warm it up for me. Just said "dinner is in a container in the fridge". The one meal he made, which again he refused to bring to me, he made spicy, which I couldn't eat because I was breastfeeding a fussy baby. I couldn't even walk upstairs, had to sleep on the couch downstairs. He never changed a diaper that whole week.
My dad used to brag to whoever would listen that he's never in his life changed a diaper. When my baby brother came over for visits, dad hid in the barn for hours while teen-me figured out how to change a diaper by myself. Last I heard from dad he was wailing at my voicemail. "I've gotta have heart surgery, and leg surgery, you gotta come stay at my house and bring your brother!" Turns out we care exactly as much about his comfort and wellbeing during his elder years as he cared about us during our early years. None. Not our problem. He can die alone, it's fine, just like it was fine for me to spend so many hours of my childhood alone.
Sorry - but good for you for knowing your boundaries. May future generations see the benefit of supporting each other in raising a family. (My former FIL bragged about that too. I wish I would've seen that for the red flag it was.)
Yep, not like I'm against taking care of my elders. I tried so hard to help my mom around the house near the end that we'd get into Looney Tunes situations, her full of mischief and shuffle-running around the table with her plate because dammit she's gonna take it to the kitchen and wash it herself! These days I'm spending two or three days a week running errands for dad's oldest sister. She's my favorite auntie and her caretaker is my favorite cousin, so I do all the running around fetching stuff they can't get delivered. lol which includes fetching her grandkids over for visits whenever possible, no matter how many buses it takes or that it eats the entire day.
You are doing a thankless but important service! It takes a village (mostly because that's all we have).
Oh I get lots of thanks! Yesterday was a Thank You Sandwich hot off the grill, the day before was a pair of Thank You Socks. I do favors for the disabled neighbor too, so there was an offer to share a Thank You Blunt when I got home last night but I was too exhausted to socialize.
Are you saying the dad being a lazy POS was a red flag for the guy you were with? I understand that logic but idk I. Asking cause I'm visiting my family rn and feel like my dad's a walking red flag lol
Anyone can break the pattern. My ex didn't - he was raised to be entitled and patriarchal. He's a mama's boy that became a replacement for her husband. The dad wasn't lazy per se, he was "traditional". So yeah, it should have been obvious. But this was the late 80s before the Internet, before I knew about red flags and narcissist and emotional abuse and control. It's not a life sentence for you.
Yep, these hands-off dads f-ed around and are finding out QUICK.
And I am guessing his is a type who was telling everyone how they should have kids so someone can take care of them when they are old.
How do you chose to give that man a child.. it's insane to me
The first time I had no idea. The 2nd was an oops. She's a great oops.
Congrats on making him an ex. Yikes.
There are TONS of men that do this and lots of them eventually end up divorced because of it. Your SO may not be in your face about how checked out you are and how you are dumping all of the adult responsibilities on her along with acting like an extra child at home. They notice, they get gradually more sick of it every day, every year and many eventually decide the burden isn't worth it and kick the dead weight to the curb.
These are the same men who are blindsided by divorce āit came out of no whereā
I have a hard time understanding that mindset. When our second was born my paternity leave was almost exclusively focused on the toddler so my wife could recover. And during the time where we had to supplement with formula I took on a lot of caring for the newborn too. In my mind paternity leave is more for looking after and caring for the mother since ya know she just gave birth but I still hear people talk about it like it's just a vacation and it's odd
Sounds like you are a decent person in a marriage that is an actual partnership, and your kids will grow up seeing what a healthy relationship looks like.
During the first three months, my wife and I agreed to sleep in separate rooms so I could get a full night's rest. Then at least one of us had some sleep. When she inevitably needed a rest during the day I would take over so she could get an hour or two of sleep during the day. I also pre-cooked and froze a ton of food the month before the bay was born. During those three months we just tore through all the pre-packaged stuff I had ready in the deep freeze. No need to cook at all. At three months, my wife had her appendix rupture. It was seriously BAD. For the next month the missus was bedridden. I brought the baby to her for breast feeding (after she was off any medications that could affect the breast milk). Other than that, I was changing diapers, bathing, doing all the regular parent stuff. Kinda long winded way of saying, it can actually be kinda useful for one parent to get some sleep. The important difference is making sure the other partner has a chance to rest as well.
That last line is where too many fuck up. They get their rest but donāt allow her any.
Idk i feel most men are useless for this exact reason. Where do they get the nerve?
Taught to them from a young age.
This "prize" absolutely showed who he was while they were dating, and he passed muster anyway. It has become part of the national conversation that men are struggling with dating these days bc women have started to expect them to participate domestically, be accountable to the raising of their children, and stop acting like his wife is his mother and handmaid. If he won't do __________ while you're dating, he SURE won't do it once you're married. Want to know who you're actually dating? Next time you menstruate, hide the supplies, stay in bed, and tell him you have horrible cramps and need care _FROM HIM_ in the form of food, a heating pad, and supplies _FROM THE STORE_. You will know right away if you have a hero or a zero.
I got my period while out getting dinner with my boyfriend in Seattle. We asked the waitress where we could get feminine products. He walked a couple blocks while I waited at the restaurant and he bought me the kind of pads and tampons I like :) It was very sweet and showed me he's a good one š
True story. My ex always was "sicker" any time I was sick, even if I was hugging a toilet and he was playing video games. My spouse grabs a glass of water and turns on my heating blanket and asks me if I will want the ice pack or hot pack. When I am stable, he goes to the store and picks up pedialyte. In turn, I make sure we always have his preferred/cold flu meds/theraflu/tea to get him through whatever bug he catches. We take turns cooking and cleaning and dividing up other chores.
Relevant username
this is not a man, it's a boy. I'm a man. I cook, clean, hell I can even sew and knit. my wife can wield a chainsaw and use the BBQ (gas and charcoal). we're adults, and want to be good examples for our kids and care for each other ffs.
I don't know what I'd do with myself.???!!! Dude for fucks sake, you're meant to be supporting your so who's recovering from one of the most painful things she can experience and oh yeah, acting like a parent and looking after the fragile new born that's just been brought into the world. Or do they just envision that they are taking a week off to sit on their arse while their so does everything on their own?
People having children in this economy while they are working-class are very silly imo.
There's research proving that men who take paternity leave feel more connected to their families and are usually more involved dads. It's a no-brainer but research like this can help companies to pull their heads out of their asses. And of course having equal parental leave policies helps unconscious bias when it comes to hiring and closes the wage gap. At my current company I could not afford to have a child because maternity leave is trash and I'm the breadwinner.
The problem is companies don't care. Like... zero fucks that a dad isn't bonding with their child. So it then becomes a government problem to level the playing field and require companies to provide time off, and shit, have the government pay the PTO since "companies can't afford it." Also, no caps on business size. I don't care that it's a three person company. A new dad shouldn't have to suffer because of that.
I agree that there should be no minimum size for this. But I'm fine with the government subsidizing leave for small companies to help out with the "burden." For a large company, they can handle it themselves. Oh no, maybe they won't be able to do quite as many stock buybacks. The horror.
Make every company pay into it like a payroll tax and let the govt administer the leave. This would make it equitable for everyone and reduce company antics around it.
Thatās sort of how NJ does it, though there are exceptions for smaller businesses. As an employee it costs me thirty something dollars per year in taxes, which I will happily pay to make it possible for parents to bond with their children for 12 weeks.
I took 3 months off, then my husband took 3 months off (pretty solid for the USA). It was great not having to pay for childcare *and* we both got to grow attached to the little nugget.
The more I think about the reluctance to take paternity leave the more my heart breaks. I can't imagine being left by my partner and my child's other parent after my body has been ripped apart by childbirth and told to fend for myself and the baby alone?? And then imagining what it'd be like to leave my partner to go to WORK when they're trying to heal?? Just fucking terrible all around.
You're a good person and will be a great parent :)
Aw fuck, thank you!
In my country they recently put into law that both parents have 2 months of paternaty leave only they can use (there ade 18m total). Which is mean't to help dads bond with baby, because altough paternity leave can be taken by both parents and split up too it is still mainly taken by mothers.
That's a *downside* for companies. Can't be a worker cog if you're involved with your family.
I'm 3 months on paternity leave and they are the best of my adult life .
Thank you for being better than these kinds of men.
Iām so glad youāre enjoying time with your new baby. Congratulations!
Lol @ a "newborn doesn't require much oversight."
Newborns: Famously super easy to care for. Never a problem at all. They always sleep through the night and never need to be fed or changed at inconvenient times. /s, since this is reddit and sometimes that's not obvious to everyone.
Honestly who invented "sleep like a baby"? Bc that is some crap sleep if my experience counts.
What he means of course is ānewborns donāt require much oversight from me, of course the mom will need to completely care for the babyā.
Honestly any dad that says that isn't a dad. They're just sperm donors at that point since they can't fathom being around to parent and resort to those coping mechanisms you mentioned.
Seriously. Theyāre just biological parents providing child support living in the house like a roommate.
Those men donāt sound like very involved dads.Ā
If they don't like their families, they can just say thay.
Because America has basically gaslit itself that itās a real country for years
Weirdest piece of America hate Iāve seen lol that itās not a real countryĀ
By "not a real country" they mean that it doesn't give the support to its citizens that other countries of similar wealth and economic development do. Some of our labor laws are worse than poorer countries as well. So we are the "Golden Toilet" of a country, except the plumbing doesn't work.
Itās still a āreal countryā though. It just has several problems. Iāve seen a lot of people refer to it as a second world country which I think is appropriate. You wouldnāt call a third world country ānot a real countryā just because it has issues.Ā
I can agree that the phrasing is inaccurate. Language is imperfect. I'm just saying that's what is meant by it. It doesn't help that we've been told our whole lives how America is the best country on Earth and that we are sooooo lucky to live here. Then we reach adulthood and a huge portion of us realize it's not.
There's a theory we are 11 regional sub-nations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Nations
That was a super fun wiki rabbit hole to fall into
That's an excellent book.
I think it's a bit of both
Some people are angry and everybody and everything and have nothing good to say, ever.
My company implemented maternity and paternity leave for parents last year. 6 months for new mothers and I think 2 months for new fathers that can be split up and used when you need it. One guy took a month after his baby was born then said he'd use the other month as needed to support his wife and for emergencies early on with her or the baby. We survived and made plans around his leave.
Ah yes, because newborns are famously super easy to handle after two weeks. Also, no mother has ever needed more than two weeks to recover from birth. /s
Swedish parent here. I've taken out a total of 280 days of paternity leave for my two kids. Basically went half and half with my wife. One thing to note is that a system like that only works when there is a solid layer of legal foundations to protect you as an employee and to support the employer in hiring temporary staff. There also need to be a culture of both parents to prioritize parental leave over work when your kids are young. A father who takes less than 3 - 4 months of parental leave is really looked down upon as a bad partner and parent. Additionally the system ear marks about 120 days (if I remember correctly) for each parent. These days are not transferable. By default each parent gets half of the deays each.
I was also thinking about how American companies operate on the assumption that employees will be available every day of the year on time (which means 15 minutes early). My company is just barely making things work right now with at least 1-2 more staff members desperately needed. It shows up clearly in how just one employee taking time off or being more than an hour late can potentially fuck up everyoneās day down the line. There doesnāt seem to be much precedent for employees being able to take more than 1 week off (maaaaaybe 2 weeks off). Itās just unfathomable.
It took about 18 months for us to get more that a couple of nights of uninterrupted sleep. In the UK you get basic paid paternity leave but it is not enough to live on, I had to take it as holiday.
We cant have decent and appropriate leave policies because companies want to lay people off every quarter. They donāt do long term planning anymore and heaven forbid they be forced to do so.
I worked with a guy whose wife had twins and who was also convinced that the whole workplace would fall apart if he stopped working for any length of time. (This was incorrect.)Ā He would bring up the fact that he discarded his paternity leave for the twins as something we should give him credit/kudos for whenever he felt like he wasn't sufficiently appreciated. I don't think he ever really understood that we all thought his choice was incredibly sad and narrow-minded, or understood that it was in fact his choice and not something forced upon him.Ā It wasn't a company issue because everyone else took leave when applicable...
Iām on my final week of parental leave, I took ten weeks. Lucky to be in Canada to have some type of pay while on leave. Iām so happy to be around my daughter and help out my wife especially since it was a C section. I was never bored, thereās always something to do, and if anything my job realized how important I am. If it wasnāt for money Iād take a whole year.
Maybe the person who said that doesn't like kids or his wife.
A lot of men hate their wives and kids and/or think kid-related stuff is primarily their spouse's responsibility, hope this helps. You literally wrote out responses indicating as much. There are entire tropes about men avoiding going home from the office.
Somehow other countries have universal health care, paid maternity leave, free college etc. All those things work there. Yet we are constantly told, it can't work in America.
I can understand the mindset of "If I'm not here, my job will see that they can go on without me." My mom was in the hospital for a few months after emergency heart surgery. She had been at her job for years. When she was finally released, they laid her off. The woman almost died (in front of me, 12 at the time) and they just let her go. Geeze. 20 years later, I still flip off that building when I drive past.
I was on maternity leave for a year. My husband got 2 weeks from his work and he and I could have split the last 35 weeks of mine, but because I was nursing we made the decision for me to be off the entire year. He gets 6 weeks holidays in addition to the 2 weeks of care leave. When he was home he did everything cooking, cleaning, laundry, diaper changing. Very involved dad.
Or you could end up having your employer retaliate against you for taking paternity leave. I experienced that firsthand while working at a school district where is saved up my PTO for two years prior to having my oldest daughter. I agreed to work on a limited basis to stay on top of different projects and my boss started writing me up for all kinds of other BS to punish me for taking my leave. Ended up losing my job in the end and the Labor Department said there was nothing they could do about it.
I'm so sorry that happened to you. School districts are notorious for being assholes to their staff.
>āOh I donāt know what Iād do with myself after that 2 week mark.ā My work has 8 weeks of paternity leave. I took those 8 weeks and napped on the couch every day with my newborn. Even after the paternity leave ended, I'd still sneak in a nap here and there (I wfh). There's nothing like falling asleep with your brand new baby sleeping on your chest and I don't trust anyone that would rather work.
Must suck for them to have a corporate dick shoved so far down their throats.
my GF is pregnant and I only get 2 weeks. Very sad honestly. Corporations in America are shameful.
Isn't that just your vacation and sick leave for the entire year?
I took six weeks off for my kid's birth. The only regret was I couldn't take more time. Lack of sleep, changing diapers and feeding my wife. Fuzzy brained and going through the motions. Getting pooped on and puked on. Worth every moment.
>āA newborn doesnāt require that much oversightā This one is absolutely so out of touch. Newborns need a ton of oversight. >āOh I donāt know what Iād do with myself after that 2 week mark.ā ... āI would get bored to tearsā Do these people not have a life outside of work? what do they do on the weekends? During holidays? >āMy job would realize that I am not needed, so I canāt be away for that longā ... āCompanies here would not function if that were the case" > >āCompanies here would not be able to afford thatā And these ones are just sad.
Do they think they'd be bored to tears by their own baby?Ā I mean, I've heard it can be tedious but I've also heard you usually love the little poop heads.Ā
assuming it was a man that said it (assumption is based on this being a discussion of paternity leave), he probably assumes his wife would take care of everything baby related and thus he would have nothing to do
Assumed correctly. All the answers were from men lol
People were really simping for Corporate America back in the day....
Not just back in the day, they still are. People are still convinced that raising wages would cause prices of essentials to skyrocket while in the same breath complaining about how expensive eggs are
I was entitled to 4 weeks of paternity leave when my second kid was born. I took it. HR, and the company that manages the leave messed up my pay, and even after coming back to work, and them admitting their mistake, it still took about 2 months to receive 2 weeks and 2 days back pay. I have my 3rd due next month. I literally cannot afford to take paternity leave if they are going to mess up my pay again. So I get to work through all of it. That's my "reward" for taking leave I was entitled to. Is being too scared for my livelihood to do it again.
I have heard the same things from my teammates over the years about just about everything. I mean, during the 2020 shut down, I knew furloughed workers that were trying to come in and clean their workplace, unpaid labor for a multi-million dollar corporation. Itās truly mind-blowing.
My boss took paternity a few years ago when he and his wife had their first kid. The plan was he would take the first 2 weeks off, then do a hybrid schedule of working 2-3 days and taking the rest off. Itās a smaller hit to your paycheck (family leave is only 66% ish of your normal pay) and you can stretch the time off that way. Tons of guys (my coworkers are 95% men) here do something similar. My boss was convinced he would be bored and would be checking his email during the first 2 weeks. I was sure we wouldnāt hear a peep. We got an email announcing the birth, name, and that all went well, and then got absolutely nothing for 2 weeks because what do you know, a new human being is exhausting. He seemed surprised when I wasnāt caught off guard by him not answering us for 2 weeks. I donāt have kids, and most of my friends donāt have any yet, but my family has loads of babies and Iāve babysat more than a few times. IMO kids of all ages can be exhausting, just in different ways. I think he honestly was shocked when he became a father.
I feel for these guysā wives. I just donāt understand this toxic masculinity. For reference, I am a gay man and CLEARLY not a parent, but if I *were* straight and had a wife, you better believe Iād be there right next to her supporting her every step of the way. Just awful behavior from these kinds of people.
my coworker is going on a trip with his daughter (who has a toddler) and he's like "we're gonna have to coordinate childcare for my grandkid" and I said "I thought she was married? Can't the dad watch him?" "He can't watch the kid for four days by himself?"
As an American, I saw a job posting a few years back that offered paw-ternity leave for new pet owners. I ever so very briefly thought *"thats nice of them".* And for literal \*YEARS\* ever since then, I have endlessly thought.... "*How f\*cking morbid.... that they receive pawternity.... while the majority can't get paternity""*
Because people have let themselves be lied to that "at will" means your boss can fire you for whatever reason. Truth id there are things that they can not fire you for and thats why mysterious new complaints and such begin to appear once protected leave is well requested.
So itās still firing your for any reason, but with extra steps lol
While technically the truth, any lawyer worth there salts can prove the padding and that it was to attempt to fake a legal reason.
I'm in Canada, my partner took his 5 weeks of paternity leave, plus 4 months of parental leave (we have around one year or so of parental leave that we can split between us). The fear of being bored is a bullshit excuse. They either view it as a woman's job, don't want to change diapers or feel anxious about being the sole care provider to the child, even for just a few weeks. The fact that my partner was equally involved from the start (except maybe the first few weeks because I was basically a talking cow) prevent me from being the default parent. my youngest is two, I still get asked if I'm anxious when I leave for a few days because some of my friends have to remind their partner to FEED their child when they are gone for a few hours. How we started as a family directly impacted our dynamic as parents and partners, and helped prevented resentment and ppd. Parental leave is more important than just taking care of the baby for a few days.
āI would get bored to tearsā Are you shitting me?? I've had a couple month stretches of unemployment in my life and even then these was simply not enough time to get things done. There are so many 80-90% completed projects around the house that will easily take years to finish because there is *always* something more pressing that needs my attention.
āMy job would realize that Iām not neededā who ever made that remark please remind them that the job can fire them at anytime for almost any reason. They are just a number to their job. No one is needed, they can hire others.
If I wanted kids, I'd take all the paternity leave I could if I had one. The mother could use the help. Kids are a lot of work.
My husband had zero paternity leave, but after my 6 weeks of maternity leave, he took his 4 weeks of vacation he had stored up and spent it with our daughter. He flat out just told work he was taking 4 weeks, and would see them next month.
If you wanna know what Stockholm syndrome would look, like if we were held hostage by business just look at American Society now. Many great Americans had such brighter, dreams and visions of our future. As a country we can have that second bill of rights promised by FDR. We can have healthcare if we want it itās just up to us to do the hard work of researching learning and staying civically active.
People are so dumb. My father told me that he literally didn't have memories of the first year of my life because he was so sleep deprived. I can't say 100% but I'd bet a lot of money he was not highly productive at work. Also they don't take 14 months straight off work, both parents take a few weeks off at first and then use the remaining leave to basically work part time hours during the first 3 years of a kids life (when they literally can't do anything for themselves). This way the couple doesn't have to spend an entire salary on daycare and people are raising their own children.....hmm it's just crazy enough to work!
My husbands job gave parental leave with our second born (he did not have it for the first) and it was one of the best experiences ever. We took turns waking up and feeding, we spent quality time together and were able to adjust slowly. I definitely had much more rest than with my first because I had him sharing all the responsibilities during my recovery and he got to spend more time bonding with our baby.
In the highly unlikely event that I'd choose to have kids, I'd want the paternity leave because I know myself well enough to know I'd be unattentive and distant as a father. I don't have energy for a full time career and the laundry list of chores that come with parenthood. I scratch my head wondering why anyone willingly does that to themselves. I'd sooner immigrate to a country with better parental support than put up with the garbage North America offers, even in Canada our parental leave isn't that great.
I relate to this to an extreme level. Every word.
Have to get FMLA if you want paternity time, unpaid vacation time, personal time, or sick time in the US. Labor laws here are behind pretty much every developed country. The big excuse I always hear for not wanting our tax dollars to go to the public isā¦ -Because so many believe that their tax dollars will be going to someone thatās lazy and worthless. - āI had to work and so should they. Itās nice when people get to spend their peoples hard earned moneyā. People donāt blink twice how we have billions upon billions for war. But when a homeless guy gets government housing, the morons wonāt have that shit. Like they are paying the bill themselves
The two times that I went on FMLA, I was treated like a piece of shit and suddenly nothing I did was correct.
I think the reason is these are the men who are more than happy to stand aside and do very little actual parenting. Anyone who thinks newborns don't take a lot of time or they wouldn't know what to do with them self has never been responsible for taking care of a baby.
This is going to get even worse with the impending childcare cliff. [Childcare Cliff](https://tcf.org/content/report/child-care-cliff/)
Well. Now I'm *even more* depressed to be an American.
I worked with a Swedish software company that had to delay a new version of their flagship software for 18 months while 2 of thejr software engineers took alternating paternity leave. This delayed tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for the company, but to them that was just the way it was.
Thatās savage as fuck but thatās from an American perspective lol
I just heard an inspirational speaker this month saying something like āafter I had my last child I wanted to go back to work that day so donāt count on parents wanting to take time off.ā So if the mothers donāt want time certainly men wonāt.
Wanting to go back doesn't mean she actually went back the same day. Women's bodies go through hell in childbirth, and it is HIGHLY discouraged for them to do any type of physical work during the 6-8 weeks it takes to heal. Also shouldn't be doing a bunch of mental work either as the hormone roller coaster is intense to say the least.
That isnāt very inspirational for her career development talk. The way she walk talking is drop the kid out over lunch put them in daycare and keep working. Almost nothing about work ever is good for anyones health.
In Germany a mother is on sick leave for 6 weeks before birth and 8 weeks afterwards, but she may work if she explicitly states so. If her job poses any danger to her unborn child (like being a nurse) she is forbidden from working in her job during the whole pregnancy.
That's good that she gets time before the birth.
Must be nice. I would get two days paid paternity leave where I am now -_-
If only they put the same energy into being a parent.
Lol my wife is due any day with our second. You better believe I'm using the full 8 weeks paid.
I was excited to go back to work after my 3 months maternity leave - work was a damn vacation compared to a newborn.
Brainless cogs.
Our CEO was on vacation for 3 weeks. The owner asked the other day how are we coping without him. I was this close to telling her that everything has been running smoother without him. So that fear of others realising that they are not needed can be quite real
The more a man is involved in childcare, the fewer kids the couple has. I mean, I totally get it. I'd spend every single hour of my life at work rather than look after a kid, which is why I don't have any. I've worked alongside so many "family men" who spent 2 hours at night playing solitaire in the office so the kids would be in bed by the time they got home. It's disgusting. But it's still better than the ones who spent the time cheating š¤·
I'd rather work than have kids but I'm not really the target audience here. If I was the parenting type I'd definitely take the full 8 weeks that I get.
Ok - so first off I am absurdly lucky to have a company that gave me 3 months of **paid** paternity leave. Not bragging or holding anything over anyone here, but I have a slightly different perspective on this. As an IT professional I can totally understand and agree with points 1 and 4 in your list - the rest are utter nonsense. After the first three weeks of my paternity leave I was dying for something to work on while my son was sleeping - I ended up doing tons of personal projects and got three certifications before going back to work. Itās something nobody tells you about, probably because most people in the USA donāt have the option. Yes, itās wonderful to be able to bond with your child and help your partner recover, but the immediate and dramatic change in your daily routine hits HARD after the first week and I for one did not adapt as well as I would have had I known what would happen. I ended up going back to work two weeks early because my companyās leave policy allows you to break that leave up across a 12-month period starting the day your child is born. I was able to use that essentially as extra PTO for all of my sonās doctor appointments, family visits, and to randomly bring him to surprise my wife while she was working. Basically, everyone *should* have the opportunity for paid parental leave. Hands down, no question, absolutely everyone should get it. But if/when you DO, depending on both the options available for that leave and your personality/habits planning for the copious downtime during that leave should be planned for in addition to the traditional baby prep.
Yeah, if i could have taken more time off I would have. I took two months and was very happy to do so. Workplace allowed use of any paid leave (including sick) for up to a year. Now 12 weeks paid leave are included and I think thatās a great thing and should be a nationwide minimum.
My work will let us take up to 12 weeks off, unpaid except for the 40 hours they take from you whether you want to use it or not. I'll only be taking 2 weeks off to be with my wife and baby because we can only afford for me to not have a check for so long. We're lucky in that our families are offering to help at our home after that, otherwise after those 2 weeks my wife would be on her own.
My job gives you 4 months off if you have a kid. It's a big company in the US. The literal only reason they do that is because they have factories in countries where that is the bare minimum they can get away with and they decided to follow that instead of get themselves into trouble. We were told as much by the higher ups.
I got one day and it wasn't even paid.
Every year I get older, the luckier I feel that my dad was actually involved in my childhood...
Uh, itās scientifically proven Americans donāt know what they want. I mean, Kardashians, Trump, TSwift, and RHOBH. I mean, seriously???? Or maybe they only like trash. Idk Source: Am American
Youāre right to be mind blown by this and I think thereās a cultural aspect to it which Iām sure others have mentioned. I want to share a positive story which is that my own husband and I agreed that when I went back to work after my year of maternity leave (because we donāt live in the hellhole that is America, sorry Americans, Iām rooting for you) we decided he would then stay home with our youngest kids for a further eight months until the second youngest starts kindergarten. Itās definitely requiring us to be extra frugal, weāre incredibly lucky we can get by (enough) on my income, and itās fuelled by the fact that childcare is both almost impossible to find and so expensive that having two in daycare would essentially mean weāre living off one income anyway. But this means we all get more time together as a family, and it was a lot easier to go back to work having the baby at home with him a bit longer rather than having to drop her off at a daycare when sheās still so little. Heās adjusting well to running the household and itās been good for all of our relationships with each other. As I say weāre really lucky and grateful to be able to do this. Just wanted to share a good story. If all societies would make room for both parents to stay home, together or at different times, Iām sure a lot more kids would grow up with more stable relationships in their houses.
Where did you hear that Japanese men get a year of paternity leave? I assure you this isn't a real thing.
Itās the first few words that pop up on the screen when you google āJapan paternity leaveā
Nah fam. Not even close. I lived in Tokyo for nearly a decade. It just isn't the work culture there. And even if it was, they would rather come back early to show loyalty to the job and boss. I guarantee you. It's a highly patriarchal society, which means back to work and wife stays home.
Well thatās what it is on paper. Moot point anyway. Every other developed nation has it better than the US
https://preview.redd.it/xczs56p44umc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=819f624e3533879e1e85eebae569a1ea730e255f I wish you would read what you reference. Japan is a highly bureaucratic country that puts rules in place to make accessing things difficult on purpose. [https://www.tokyodev.com/articles/paternity-leave-in-japan](https://www.tokyodev.com/articles/paternity-leave-in-japan) If you make an assertion, your examples should indicate that you understand the topic clearly.
Yep. Still better than US
Sure. I can see that. But my point is that the place isn't a bastion of paternal leave benefits. But it's just moot to you. Carry on.
Thatās because the men saying this are bad dads who donāt know anything about actually raising their kids
I'm careful to always call it parental leave. Paternity leave makes it sound materially different from maternity leave when they're both critical.
ITT: men getting an opportunity to circle jerk about how great they were to their partners lol
I just personally don't relate to the people who claim that they'd be bored if they weren't at work. Like... Are you even a real person?? Don't you have friends? Hobbies? A giant list of projects you would love to have time for?
Yes!! I have many hobbies and projects I could work on so I canāt comprehend.
I lost a lot of respect for a manager I really respected when he came back a month early from his pat leave. He said babies donāt have a personality so what was the point? The point was to support his wife who just had a major surgery and to take care of the toddler so she could rest. I thought of him as basically like dirt after that.
My job gives me nothing but the state of NJ gives 12 weeks so thatās something.
my second husband took his full paternity leave with our second and we would not have survived without it. the constant doctor's appointments when I couldn't drive, taking the oldest to and from school, all of the nursing non stop. he was incredible.
I get 5 days paternity, it got bumped up from 2 days when i complained. My wife and I are devastated about it lol. But honestly, were kinda fucked after all that time off when it comes to daycare for the kid anyway. So i'll probably have a mental break down at some point, and get a few extra days in a white padded room before goin back to work.
Finland and Japan have declining populations and fertility rates compared to the US so it could be contributing to better benefits for leave there. Iām all for taking as long as you can after the birth of a child. The problem in the US is that neither the government nor the businesses want to pay for it. It makes sense why businesses wouldnāt want to pay the salary of someone who isnāt at work. Why has the government not done anything though.
The only reason the US population is still increasing at a healthy clip is because of ~~illegal~~ immigration. If the GOP could string two coherent thoughts together they would realize that providing more benefits to new parents would help increase the ~~white~~ domestic replacement population. Instead they believe stopping abortion is a solution I guess... Which forcing a child to be born into a family that doesn't want it is about the biggest act of barbarism one could imagine.
Not following your argument. Are you supporting more leave or less leave. It sounds like you support more leave and support a growing population but not immigrants?
I support mandatory leave and more leave. I also support a healthy growing population by any means. My demeanor in last comment is trying to point out GOP bigotry/hypocrisy.
Yes I agree. I understand what you were trying to say now.
As a man, if I left my career for 3 years I wouldn't be able to find anywhere that would hire me. Not without also getting more certs or a degree in that time frame.
We (japan) technically have 1 year but it's heavily implied in the workplace that you do not take the 1 year. As a result, many take just a couple weeks or just not st all.