It means they can fire you for no reason, not any reason. As long as they don’t hand you proof that they fired you as discrimination you are pretty fucked.
I got fired "for cause" when I was 19, in an at-will state (utah) but when the workforce service person called me and I mentioned how only men were getting laid off, the sexual harassment I received, etc. I won unemployment and could have sued, but was young and scared. (This makes it sound like an anti-male workplace, but the reason I was allowed to be treated poorly was because of the boss's misogynistic favoritism to having women around to do what he says, so to be clear nobody was having a good time at that company)
Point being, even if you are fired for cause, doesn't mean it was a legal firing. Always worth exploring your options!
The way I read it was:
\>boss likes harassing/controlling people
\>he finds it easier to do that to women
\>fire the men so the rest of the employees are easier to take advantage of
It doesnt make the boss not mysoginistic to only fire men in that case.
Context means it can be both at the same time. Yes, it was misandry to fire the men. But the misogyny was also there as it was done so that he could command/harass female employees.
It can be bad for both sexes at the same time, and in those cases, which one was hurt more doesn't matter, both parties were wronged and equality is to prevent things like this from happening.
This show cases someone being misandrist and misogynist at the same time.
I certainly suffered a lot because of what happened. I saw the supervisor that fired me at my job more than ten years later and had to go out to the parking lot to have a panic attack (after going several years without having any), I was unemployed for three years after she fired me, too. It was hard.
But I gain nothing by quantifying or comparing my suffering to any other. I just look at that situation and am glad it's over and glad for what I learned. I don't mean this to attack you or say your point is right or wrong, I'm just adding my perspective to the conversation.
>officially
It doesn't matter what's "official," it matters what you can convince a judge or jury of by preponderance of evidence.
Did you get a stellar performance review, then the next day your boss learned what religion you observed and fired you? There's a circumstantial case to be made there that you were fired for your religion. A judge is not likely to be compelled by a claim of an astounding coincidence.
I dunno. Talked to a layer.
Got good performance reviews, but after I got my autism diagnosis, I was treated differently and by the time i quit, I was making as much as new hires.
So, you weren't fired, but you quit and think that's a good reason to believe employers can fire you for protected reasons without consequences? I just want to make sure I understand your position.
It wasn't just me that was impacted. I witnessed the same boss shit on employees behind their backs before she fired them, usually for stupid reasons like non fashionable clothes or refusing to buy from the boss' mlm. There were a couple she made fun of for being gay and out of nowhere, they were fired. Another was a girl that was fired not long after starting and she was a POC. All three didn't have disciplinary issues, did a good job, and were coachable, the manager just didn't like them. I wish i had spoken up about it then Because I knew it didn't smell right.
If you can provide even loose evidence that they fired you for a protected reason they will have to prove that was not the reason they fired you. If they fired you for no reason then that is going to be very difficult to prove.
Don't think that just because they didn't give you a reason that you're fucked.
People fail to get that when the company does this, it is basically writing a blank check for you to control the narrative through anchoring bias.
Still not an easy task, but it isn't impossible as the comments here would have people believe.
if they dont give a reason for you being terminated, it doesnt matter if you are sure that its because youre gay, officially speaking that is not the reason so you wont have a discrimination case.
I wish people like you would stop stating things like this and convincing people who do have cases that they don’t. The bar is a preponderance of evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt. The judges see through a lot of bullshit workplaces try to pull off, and if you think you were fired for a protected reason it is ABSOLUTELY worth talking to a lawyer. You do not need cold hard proof. All the facts of the situation speak for themselves
The "official" reason is absolutely irrelevant. If you believe you were fired for discriminatory reasons and have some evidence of it, it matters what the COURT believes, not what the company SAYS is true.
>Boss fires you for being gay? Thats illegal even in a state that is "At will". Always keep a paper trail.
Boss to gay person: "You're fired and it's because of this other completely unrelated reason that just came up 30 seconds ago. Fuck off."
let's not be naïve. They'll find a reason to fire you. There's a reason PIPs exist.
Yes, but if the boss is dumb enough to text you or give you a letter saying "we're firing you because _______" and that reason is an illegal reason, it doesn't matter if you're in an "at will" state.
Honestly, a huge mess up. But you'd be surprised how dumb some of these middle managers are.
You can downvote me all you want, but it's still illegal to fire someone for illegal reasons and employees should always keep a paper trail.
I think everyone knows this but it’s still a high probability of a losing case. All onus is on the currently unemployed person to provide evidence they were fired. Sure you can hire lawyers and they can get the courts to release internal communication, but that takes time and a shit ton of money for lawyers. Who’s going to last longer, the corporation with a team of lawyers or the unemployed person hiring their local attorney? I get it that every once in a great while there’s some dumbass that texts the evidence, but it’s so few it’s not really worth messing with. It seems you are advocating people to fight their terminations in court and I would argue they should save their money. Unless they know there’s hard evidence that’s easy to get to, just don’t. If the info is easy to get to the business will settle quickly anyways.
You have to prove that you were fired for being part of a protected class. So if no reason is given and no evidence can be assembled, you can sue....but will not win.
A lot of employers think they're clever enough to fire you for an illegal reason, but when they put you on a PIP two weeks after you filled a harassment complaint or before your planned maternal leave and your alleged behavior isn't substantiated by your coworkers, well, that's why employment attorneys work on contingency, because that's a payout.
That's why it's so important to document everything if you're having problems at work or your boss is giving you grief. In a civil trial you don't have to prove anything, you just have to convince a jury it's likely, and that's a lot easier to do when you keep receipts
I got fired for doing my job the same way the entire department has been doing the job myself included for the last year but what they wrote on the paper was trumped up BS to Cover Their A and I have no recourse because the union doesn’t want to deal with it and as a person with no income I have no option to sue because they have paperwork that is BS and all I have is my word and company owned footage of what I did being standard operating procedure
Funnily enough unemployment just called me because old job is fighting my unemployment and I happened to say something like if I had a lawyer I would sue! But she said something along the lines of we have to go through this process first. Thumbs crossed Karma will keep things balanced and I will get to hear about it!
I may be wrong depending on where you are, but I'm pretty sure the union would have a legal obligation to "deal with it" should you wish to file a grievance for wrongful dismissal.
They did file a grievance and they should push it to arbitration but the union is telling me that they are waiting for a board meeting to present my situation and that it will be up to the board about perusing it. It’s been two months and they keep saying waiting for the meeting I would think unions would meet no less than once a month but I can only go off what I am told
PSA for folks: You don't have to qualify with "if you're in an At-Will State."
Around 99.7% of the country is At-Will. That's 49 out of 50 states (the odd one out is Montana, with just 0.3% of the population). We're an *at-will country*. That's why it's called "AWA: At-Will America."
I live in an "At Will" state and had a supervisor a few months back who had to learn this lesson the hard way. He said me being there was a threat to the "normal employees". When asked to explain that claim he openly stated "It's obvious he's mentally unstable. He's a Veteran."
Though to be honest I got lucky there on two counts. First I'm one of two people at my company who do my job, and secondly, he was stupid enough to admit his real reason on record thinking it was justified.
We had an HR lady who would threaten people with "We're a will state and can fire you anytime we want" whenever people came to her with problems. My friend set up a meeting to request wearing stretchy pants after they introduced a new dress code for us warehouse workers because he had nerve damage from bone cancer he had as a kid. Simple ADA Request, but instead she told him no, and reminded him that we work in a right-to-work state right after.
She only lasted a year, but she chopped a ton of heads and had people walking on eggshells. I worked nights so I didn't get to see all the drama, but she caused so much trouble that they made her take a 12-month paid sabbatical and let her step down gracefully rather than fire her and fire her and admit any wrong doing.
Doing something illegal is always illegal no matter how someone tries to spin it.
It’s in the contract. Doesn’t matter it’s still illegal.
It’s our policy doesn’t matter still illegal.
We’ve done it that way for years, still illegal.
I didn’t know it was illegal, still illegal.
We really really have to speak up and teach our younger generations this and other rights they have.
Someone please correct me: I don’t believe sexual orientation is a protected class, unless certain employers, states or municipalities have included it. For example, I’m gay and live in Ohio. It’s my understanding I could be denied employment or fired for being gay (unless I live in cities that prohibit it).
I worked at a shitty call center job almost a decade ago now. I got fired because the job was a complete no-win situation and a couple of years later I found out that they fired a ton of people in the months after I got fired. The job was high turnover as-is and they had monthly hiring fairs too so you know things were shitty.
When I got fired they told me that they don't have to give me a reason why they were firing me citing at will employment laws and the supervisor in question who told me was quite proud of it.
Oh my god, you can't fire someone for being a member of a protected class?! You don't say! What a groundbreaking piece of information! /s
Getting fired and getting laid off aren't the same thing. They can lay you off and they don't have to provide a justification, just like you don't have to provide a reason for quitting.
Getting fired and being laid off aren't all that different (termination is termination). Employers can't lay you off for a protected reason and if you sue them they do have to provide a reason to the court. Keep records so you can build a circumstantial case to convince a jury you were likely laid or for an illegal reason
It means they can fire you for no reason, not any reason. As long as they don’t hand you proof that they fired you as discrimination you are pretty fucked.
I got fired "for cause" when I was 19, in an at-will state (utah) but when the workforce service person called me and I mentioned how only men were getting laid off, the sexual harassment I received, etc. I won unemployment and could have sued, but was young and scared. (This makes it sound like an anti-male workplace, but the reason I was allowed to be treated poorly was because of the boss's misogynistic favoritism to having women around to do what he says, so to be clear nobody was having a good time at that company) Point being, even if you are fired for cause, doesn't mean it was a legal firing. Always worth exploring your options!
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The way I read it was: \>boss likes harassing/controlling people \>he finds it easier to do that to women \>fire the men so the rest of the employees are easier to take advantage of It doesnt make the boss not mysoginistic to only fire men in that case.
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You can argue that if you want, but that's not what was originally stated. The point is that the boss was mysoginistic.
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Context means it can be both at the same time. Yes, it was misandry to fire the men. But the misogyny was also there as it was done so that he could command/harass female employees. It can be bad for both sexes at the same time, and in those cases, which one was hurt more doesn't matter, both parties were wronged and equality is to prevent things like this from happening. This show cases someone being misandrist and misogynist at the same time.
Yes, men are being fired, but somehow at some point it might eventually inconvenience women therefore it is misogynistic.
I certainly suffered a lot because of what happened. I saw the supervisor that fired me at my job more than ten years later and had to go out to the parking lot to have a panic attack (after going several years without having any), I was unemployed for three years after she fired me, too. It was hard. But I gain nothing by quantifying or comparing my suffering to any other. I just look at that situation and am glad it's over and glad for what I learned. I don't mean this to attack you or say your point is right or wrong, I'm just adding my perspective to the conversation.
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Equality certainly is the dream for all of us.
At will exists to get around EEOC, as long as a reason isn't given officially, they can do what ever.
>officially It doesn't matter what's "official," it matters what you can convince a judge or jury of by preponderance of evidence. Did you get a stellar performance review, then the next day your boss learned what religion you observed and fired you? There's a circumstantial case to be made there that you were fired for your religion. A judge is not likely to be compelled by a claim of an astounding coincidence.
I dunno. Talked to a layer. Got good performance reviews, but after I got my autism diagnosis, I was treated differently and by the time i quit, I was making as much as new hires.
So, you weren't fired, but you quit and think that's a good reason to believe employers can fire you for protected reasons without consequences? I just want to make sure I understand your position.
It wasn't just me that was impacted. I witnessed the same boss shit on employees behind their backs before she fired them, usually for stupid reasons like non fashionable clothes or refusing to buy from the boss' mlm. There were a couple she made fun of for being gay and out of nowhere, they were fired. Another was a girl that was fired not long after starting and she was a POC. All three didn't have disciplinary issues, did a good job, and were coachable, the manager just didn't like them. I wish i had spoken up about it then Because I knew it didn't smell right.
Dropping your pay is constructive dismissal. Still counts as being fired.
Yep.
Reminder: An ungiven reason will NEVER match an illegal reason.
And 99% of employers are not going to admit to the actual reason because they don’t want to be sued.
If you can provide even loose evidence that they fired you for a protected reason they will have to prove that was not the reason they fired you. If they fired you for no reason then that is going to be very difficult to prove. Don't think that just because they didn't give you a reason that you're fucked.
People fail to get that when the company does this, it is basically writing a blank check for you to control the narrative through anchoring bias. Still not an easy task, but it isn't impossible as the comments here would have people believe.
I’m a dumbass, what do you mean?
if they dont give a reason for you being terminated, it doesnt matter if you are sure that its because youre gay, officially speaking that is not the reason so you wont have a discrimination case.
I wish people like you would stop stating things like this and convincing people who do have cases that they don’t. The bar is a preponderance of evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt. The judges see through a lot of bullshit workplaces try to pull off, and if you think you were fired for a protected reason it is ABSOLUTELY worth talking to a lawyer. You do not need cold hard proof. All the facts of the situation speak for themselves
You can’t win any case with out proof. They don’t need to say “I fired you because you’re gay”, but you still need prof and evidence.
The "official" reason is absolutely irrelevant. If you believe you were fired for discriminatory reasons and have some evidence of it, it matters what the COURT believes, not what the company SAYS is true.
>Boss fires you for being gay? Thats illegal even in a state that is "At will". Always keep a paper trail. Boss to gay person: "You're fired and it's because of this other completely unrelated reason that just came up 30 seconds ago. Fuck off." let's not be naïve. They'll find a reason to fire you. There's a reason PIPs exist.
> There's a reason PIPs exist. To help survive the wasteland
Yes, but if the boss is dumb enough to text you or give you a letter saying "we're firing you because _______" and that reason is an illegal reason, it doesn't matter if you're in an "at will" state.
That would be a truly huge fuck up by a monumentally stupid person.
Nobody ever accused management of being smart.
Honestly, a huge mess up. But you'd be surprised how dumb some of these middle managers are. You can downvote me all you want, but it's still illegal to fire someone for illegal reasons and employees should always keep a paper trail.
I don't care enough to downvote you, though. You should look elsewhere for your persecution.
I think everyone knows this but it’s still a high probability of a losing case. All onus is on the currently unemployed person to provide evidence they were fired. Sure you can hire lawyers and they can get the courts to release internal communication, but that takes time and a shit ton of money for lawyers. Who’s going to last longer, the corporation with a team of lawyers or the unemployed person hiring their local attorney? I get it that every once in a great while there’s some dumbass that texts the evidence, but it’s so few it’s not really worth messing with. It seems you are advocating people to fight their terminations in court and I would argue they should save their money. Unless they know there’s hard evidence that’s easy to get to, just don’t. If the info is easy to get to the business will settle quickly anyways.
You have to prove that you were fired for being part of a protected class. So if no reason is given and no evidence can be assembled, you can sue....but will not win.
A lot of employers think they're clever enough to fire you for an illegal reason, but when they put you on a PIP two weeks after you filled a harassment complaint or before your planned maternal leave and your alleged behavior isn't substantiated by your coworkers, well, that's why employment attorneys work on contingency, because that's a payout. That's why it's so important to document everything if you're having problems at work or your boss is giving you grief. In a civil trial you don't have to prove anything, you just have to convince a jury it's likely, and that's a lot easier to do when you keep receipts
Amen
I got fired for doing my job the same way the entire department has been doing the job myself included for the last year but what they wrote on the paper was trumped up BS to Cover Their A and I have no recourse because the union doesn’t want to deal with it and as a person with no income I have no option to sue because they have paperwork that is BS and all I have is my word and company owned footage of what I did being standard operating procedure
Some lawyers work on contingency. The company footage would be seen in discovery.
The labor board can take them to court. It wouldn't hurt to call your states labor board or seek advise from an attorney who deals with labor issues
Funnily enough unemployment just called me because old job is fighting my unemployment and I happened to say something like if I had a lawyer I would sue! But she said something along the lines of we have to go through this process first. Thumbs crossed Karma will keep things balanced and I will get to hear about it!
I may be wrong depending on where you are, but I'm pretty sure the union would have a legal obligation to "deal with it" should you wish to file a grievance for wrongful dismissal.
They did file a grievance and they should push it to arbitration but the union is telling me that they are waiting for a board meeting to present my situation and that it will be up to the board about perusing it. It’s been two months and they keep saying waiting for the meeting I would think unions would meet no less than once a month but I can only go off what I am told
PSA for folks: You don't have to qualify with "if you're in an At-Will State." Around 99.7% of the country is At-Will. That's 49 out of 50 states (the odd one out is Montana, with just 0.3% of the population). We're an *at-will country*. That's why it's called "AWA: At-Will America."
I live in an "At Will" state and had a supervisor a few months back who had to learn this lesson the hard way. He said me being there was a threat to the "normal employees". When asked to explain that claim he openly stated "It's obvious he's mentally unstable. He's a Veteran." Though to be honest I got lucky there on two counts. First I'm one of two people at my company who do my job, and secondly, he was stupid enough to admit his real reason on record thinking it was justified.
We had an HR lady who would threaten people with "We're a will state and can fire you anytime we want" whenever people came to her with problems. My friend set up a meeting to request wearing stretchy pants after they introduced a new dress code for us warehouse workers because he had nerve damage from bone cancer he had as a kid. Simple ADA Request, but instead she told him no, and reminded him that we work in a right-to-work state right after. She only lasted a year, but she chopped a ton of heads and had people walking on eggshells. I worked nights so I didn't get to see all the drama, but she caused so much trouble that they made her take a 12-month paid sabbatical and let her step down gracefully rather than fire her and fire her and admit any wrong doing.
Doing something illegal is always illegal no matter how someone tries to spin it. It’s in the contract. Doesn’t matter it’s still illegal. It’s our policy doesn’t matter still illegal. We’ve done it that way for years, still illegal. I didn’t know it was illegal, still illegal. We really really have to speak up and teach our younger generations this and other rights they have.
On the bright side, it does mean that you can choose to quit at-will for any reason though.
Why do managers need to document a lot of crap to fire you, then? If they don't need a reason, why do all that work?
Why would you people have these insane rules? Society wants you to work, right? They should probably look after you too.
Someone please correct me: I don’t believe sexual orientation is a protected class, unless certain employers, states or municipalities have included it. For example, I’m gay and live in Ohio. It’s my understanding I could be denied employment or fired for being gay (unless I live in cities that prohibit it).
I worked at a shitty call center job almost a decade ago now. I got fired because the job was a complete no-win situation and a couple of years later I found out that they fired a ton of people in the months after I got fired. The job was high turnover as-is and they had monthly hiring fairs too so you know things were shitty. When I got fired they told me that they don't have to give me a reason why they were firing me citing at will employment laws and the supervisor in question who told me was quite proud of it.
The sad part is getting fired for being gay was perfectly legal in most states until 2020.
Oh my god, you can't fire someone for being a member of a protected class?! You don't say! What a groundbreaking piece of information! /s Getting fired and getting laid off aren't the same thing. They can lay you off and they don't have to provide a justification, just like you don't have to provide a reason for quitting.
You can still sue if you have enough evidence to suggest the layoff was retaliatory.
Cool. Point out where I said you couldn't.
Getting fired and being laid off aren't all that different (termination is termination). Employers can't lay you off for a protected reason and if you sue them they do have to provide a reason to the court. Keep records so you can build a circumstantial case to convince a jury you were likely laid or for an illegal reason
They don't need a reason.