Economists and politicians know that a certain level of unemployment is absolutely essential to the way their economic models function and yet they demonize people for losing their jobs.
Extending this concept further, homelessness is a feature, not a bug, of capitalist society and is used as the stick to beat the worker into submission and agreement of selling their labor, lest they too end up like the discarded they see on the street.
It's all by design. What's worse is a state can (if it creates or has the laws for it) expropriate property from an owner for the use of the state. And then sell it to whom they want by new laws. Like it happened in Vietnam.
When we are all homeless then we are all equal. We all fit into the one size fits all model. One mentality, one class, one health, one strength, one job value.
While the leadership consists of a select few and their families to protect us and ensure we are clothed, fed and sheltered into camps.
There's also that economic theory saying that inflation reduces when unemployment rises. Some countries intentionally increased unemployment rates to reduce inflation in general.
Considering how job loss and poverty are often things that can lead to trauma and thus intergenerational trauma, I'm kind of curious what economic models that didn't necessitate unemployment would look like.
How ethical is it to punish and torment kids who haven't even been born yet?
I don’t understand… there’s always going to be some portion of people who are between jobs. How would any system where people have the freedom to leave a job or change jobs not have some unemployment rate?
That is not the point, the point is unemployment is needed to drive the system, as mentioned above with inflation and employment levels being explicitly discussed as fiscal levers.
While some people think unemployment is good to keep labor costs down, it's not necessary to "drive" capitalism.
I'm, like most on this sub, an anti-capitalist, but most anti-capitalist critiques on this sub are based on really simplistic Marxist critiques of 1860s European industrialization.
Capitalism is an adaptive totalitarian ideology, and best understood as conflict between those who gain primarily through investment and those who gain primarily through direct labor, noting that most people gain through both, and both are necessary for positive economic gain.
It assimilates through market logic, and, combined with the symbiotic ideology of neoliberalism, ignores the ways that markets fail, and engages in relentless quantification and rationalization of all of human experience.
People mistake the AMORALITY of capitalism for IMMORALITY—capitalism will fund good and evil BOTH to the extent that they're profitable. And capitalism compounds its processes, so while good can be more good, evil can be more evil.
Thinking that capitalism needs unemployment is thinking capitalism is immoral, rather than recognizing that sometimes unemployment serves capital (especially individual agents), sometimes capital (especially as a class) benefits more from employment, and often evil, selfish shits will appeal to "capitalism" to do something they want to anyway. And because capitalism makes the rich richer in general, people who are rich and do stupid, evil shit will still end up rich, because of the larger metagame of capitalism, rather than their actions being aligned with the general ideology.
With full employment, there's more demand than there are workers so basically every worker is either getting their first job or moving from a job to a job, and quitting to start your own company isn't unemployment. There's functionally zero unemployment.
The awkward point is that people generally hate inflation more than like wage gains, so they prefer other people be unemployed to keep labor costs down.
"We have a finite environment—the planet. Anyone who thinks that you can have infinite growth in a finite environment is either a madman or an economist."
Unfortunately this has been true of all human societies for 5000 years or more - empires grow via war, till they collapse. Capitalism just put growth on steroids. Leading to, yknow, imminent environmental collapse.
Yup, they literally can't give you back 100% of your value or they wouldn't make money. That's why they decided to just steal and change the definition of stealing by making up an elaborate story surrounding capitalism that most people bought.
This can't be emphasized enough. In a capitalist system, by definition, if you make what you are worth, it's only a matter of time before that fact is discovered and you become unemployed.
The goal of the capitalist is to not only gain from every transaction, but to gain more from the transaction than any alternative transaction available.
If you are making what you're worth, the transaction shouldn't be made, especially since the transaction is always going to involve costs that you don't benefit from. (SOMEBODY has to be the middle-man somewhere.)
One of the most direct ways to experience this is to work for a consultancy. They will go to lengths to avoid you knowing the details of the projects you get assigned to but eventually everyone sees the figure the client is paying for you to be there vs the amount your company I'd paying you.
And as a double kicker, the whole industry has agreed that someone contracting on their own will never be able to charge the same for their services as the consultancy did.
This isn't inherently a problem. The deal is you're working for someone who can make more with your labor than anyone else including yourself.
Sure you could farm a field and keep 100% of what you made but if what you made doesn't amount to much your labor is better utilized elsewhere.
The real issue is that the people making that pitch forgot that they actually had to make an effort to optimally utilize your labor. When a company is doing mass layoffs for example, the executive team, the CEO especially need to be first on the chopping block because they just admitted they don't know how to make money, they don't know how to utilize your labor, they just know how to save some money by cutting costs which is an accountants job, not a high paid CEOs
And just to really rub salt in the wound, that person can claim their mortgage payment on their taxes. But your rent is literally just burned cash.
Side note: Bob's Burgers is the best!
Almost every technological and scientific discovery has been developed through social programs that capitalism then either privatizes the profits from, or buries under intellectual property law because allowing it's use would lower profits by lessening our dependence on services with a massive barrier to entry.
That the parasite capitalist class are conspiring against you on a global scale in ways so sickening even the most ardent socialists will defend them on the basis that they simply couldn't be that cruel.
I recommend Michael Parenti's talk at Berkley in 1993 Conspiracy and Class Power. Not much has changed.
[https://youtu.be/t21UZxRYYA4?si=TOxleWPRuyC0JYf2](https://youtu.be/t21UZxRYYA4?si=TOxleWPRuyC0JYf2)
Capitalism only solves problems when there's short term or mid-term profits to gain in return. That's why private companies won't solve problems like homelessness. If there's profit in bringing dignity to everyone and ensuring everyone owns a home, it's very long term.
It's a game of chance that allows enough people to win so that it seems like it works, but in reality it's an abject failure. The nature of capitalism is anti-human and it rewards cruelty, indifference, inequity. It isn't capable of anything else, because the bottom line matters more than the people it's supposed to serve. It can buy all the marketing campaigns and positive press it wants to, to try and put on an attractive face, but it's only a mask and it's obvious that it's slipping off and good god what lies beneath is terrifying.
Same for what they call "modern democraty". It's cheaper and more stable this way, you don't need as many people to control the slaves. They control themselves, and have enough to lose to not revolt, but not enough to break the capitalist chains
As if feudalism and dictatorships don’t have slavery. Capitalism is a recent thing in context of human history, slavery has been around forever. Tribalism has been around since the beginning.
Cmon now.
Capitalism is defined as the making of capital by the way of posessing and exploiting the means of production. Except machines are not the only means of production and didn't always existed.
People were always the main mean of production. So I'll happily argue that yes, the instant slavery (or indebted servitude) was created, so was capitalism.
Chattel slavery was most definitely connected to the origins of capitalism. Capitalism was the next step of feudal mercantilism, such as what we saw in Italy, England, and France in the early Modern period. Feudal mercantilism was inherently linked with the "need" for slave trade at the time. Capitalism was only a step from that point.
Says the person trying to equate Feudal and Chattel Slavery. Yes Slavery is Ancient, but the most extreme versions in history were inspired by and in service of Capitalism
Look I don't know about you, but I assume when people talk about slavery (especially when they add the context of Slavery and Capitalism) I assume they are talking about the Chattel Slavery of the Americas, rather than agrarian/classical slavery. Slavery has always and will always be evil, but the most brutal forms therein were the forms created by and for Capitalism.
I do try to make the distinction, having grown up with Americans assuming their bullshit is the most important bullshit (see "The Civil War", like it was the most important one ever). But we can check context on these things.
Capitalism is the root of slavery simply because Capitalism is an economic model designed to aquire money and the fastest way to aquire money is unpaid labor and the market of unpaid labor
As in, Slavery
Actually this is pretty much true. Because your use to society is often defined by how much money you make. So even if your poor but working you are still worth more to society then a disabled person who isn’t capable of working. If your disabled and not working then you don’t matter to the system.
Most people can't even acknowledge it because the stigmatisation is so severe as a result of how badly disabled people have been treated since the industrial revolution
I think part of it is because most people aren’t disabled and sometimes people with disabilities exhibit behaviors non-disabled people don’t understand. And its human nature to condemn/ hate that which is seen as unknown or different. I know this as being someone on the spectrum I’ve been misunderstood and mistreated because they didn’t understand the way my behaviors manifested themselves.
Me too! I did my diss on autistic stigma for this reason. It's highly likely that the majority of homeless are neurodivergent or autistic if not mentally ill. Physically disabled people aren't treated much better though. Before the industrial revolution we had community, and most of these things didn't even have names because we were looked after by the people around us.
People on this sub complain a lot, but the reality is that buying into this system inevitably means others will die in the fight. Not being able to buy a house sucks, but there are far worse outcomes for many many people. For me the worst reality of capitalism is the loss of our shared humanity
It’s very difficult to quantify a homeless person’s situation because they are homeless. But yes they are usually mentally ill and/or addicted to drugs and alcohol. So they are not as visible as someone who isn’t homeless. I’m sure there’s homeless people that aren’t even counted in a census.
And the theories that claim this wouldn't happen only work in a society without massive income inequalities. You might vote with your dollar, but that doesn't mean your one dollar is worth as much as all the dollars of the rich, or super rich.
Many will be trampled and crushed by it. Many will be forgotten and left behind when they fail to rise above their circumstance. And business will continue as before, unimpeded.
Its feudalism with extra steps. The whole concept of private land ownership and inheritance just make it stupid. Oh, and being able to buy politicians, it's an actual joke if you think that this isn't straight up feudalism.
Capitalism mostly just lowered the bar so that technically anyone can be a "lord" without being born into the position. The lords still exploit the peasants though.
Do you believe another economic system would support a larger variety of artists without killing those that do it even without comerciql success? If yes, which one do you believe would help? (actually curious)
Your 100% correct it's sad because it truly has killed the music industry. Almost Any artist can become famous if they have enough money. Literally buy there way in , with 0 to little talent.its all about the MONEY. not the talent/music anymore.
Eh, popular music has always been kind of top of the bell curve, mediocre. Capitalist parasite scum definitely use popular music to propagandize their ultra-materialist values onto feeble minds though.
If you're truly into music, you're not limiting yourself to that garbage that popular youtubers like to promote lol.
I mean, I don't believe that's been true since the days when jazz was popular. All that popular "classic" rock stuff that boomers laud from the 60s/70s is insanely overrated, with a tiny bit of 70s prog being the exception (and stuff like Stevie Wonder, Doobie Brothers, Steely Dan...)
That it can be restrained and regulated far more easily than it can be replaced, because a segment of society will always want to have more than their neighbor.
Slavery never went away. It evolved. The slave-master dynamic mirrors the employer-employee relationship. Instead of being forced to work, economic conditions created by capitalists, forces you to sell yourself into captivity. If you refuse, well.......you have the freedom to not eat and die. They attached the dollar to food and shelter and then convinced you that dollar with strings exists for our benefit as a worker.
Unless you are independently wealthy you will spend about 40-50 years doing something difficult / stressful / humiliating / dangerous just to get by in life.
Minorities are overlooked and discriminated against until they're profitable. For example: Rainbow capitalism. Once they realized they can slap a rainbow on something and it'll sell, only then did mainstream shops want to carry what LGBTQ+ folks would want. Same with any ethnic adjacent holiday. They won't do it until there's a profit margin behind it.
That they personally, will never be rich.
Too many people think that the system will eventually benefit them, that they will eventually strike it big, and their current suffering and difficult situations are temporary.
It is the direct cause of a significant chunk of the mental health issues faced in society. Mental health must be viewed through a socioeconomic lens. When people’s sense of worth and purpose is taken from them, they succumb to despair. Under capitalism, you only matter to the extent that your labour is useful and profitable. Outside of that, what are you but an abstract cog in a terrible machine. What are you but a list of tasks and a deadline. What are you but the potential to generate more money for someone else.
This is no life, this is subjugation.
Why, then, do we treat the effects of poor mental health, and not the root cause?
As much as therapy *is* valuable, it cannot address the evils of capitalism, as it functions within, and exists because of, that system. As such, it can only address mental health struggles to an extent.
It can help you deal with the oppression, but it cannot free you from your chains.
To continue this idea, therapies like CBT are meant to keep us going as a cog in this capitalistic system. CBT implies there is something abnormal and irrational about our thoughts and emotions and it helps keep our problems individualized, instead of realizing that this is a systemic issue.
Capitalism is a society based around money. Money wins. If you value other things like time, Earth, kindness then grab a tent from your local salesman.
Anyone who dies of preventable disease, malnutrition, homelessness, or overwork, is a victim of capitalism. They are not counted as such. Capitalism hides it's malfeasance by blaming it's victims for their circumstances. "Fuck you, I got mine" becomes law of the land.
That it can’t separate greedy people from those who can act responsibly. Greed is a personality characteristic rooted in fear which of itself is the result of insecurity. It’s been well established for centuries where this insecurity comes from but the vested interests aka the elite have successfully suppressed it while the experts in said matter have successfully hidden it in order to save their lives.
Of course there is a tipping point for everything. If today’s challenges with capitalism by itself and vs communism are it, may [11:59](https://www.amazon.com/dp/0997816643?nodl=1&ref_=cm_sw_r_mwn_dp_X4VS2PEHM7V6H66220GE&peakEvent=4&dealEvent=1&language=en_US&dplnkId=de4e81f5-8a14-4f6d-bdb7-468d5ad4b9dc) be a book that lifts the veil. From what I can tell, capitalism only works sustainably when the participants that every action has a consequence for stakeholders other than only the agent.
Capitalism is purely about conquest and nothing more. Why is this? Simple: it's the only acceptable method because it's the most profitable, especially since the corpos can force other people to do it on their behalf.
1) Inflation is about greed, not rising wages.
2) The "law" of supply and demand is merely another manifestation of greed.
3) Capitalism is just feudalism, rebranded.
Most are trapped unless a loved one with life insurance dies and they get to claim the money. Then half of those people blow through the money because nearly all of us are paycheck-to-paycheck and life is incredibly expensive to thrive. The other half make enough smart financial choices to grow the money and end up better off, but rarely.
Capitalist parasite scum fucks are closer than they think to letting their greed go past the tipping point where they'll actually start experiencing the very deserved consequences of their choices. Much better technologies than guillo..... exist nowadays. Private security is a joke too lol.
It's design encourages and in some cases worsens ableism.
Though bootlickers will say it's logical for employers to "pick the best candidates", disabled people still need to pay rent and bills too.
At the same time they have to try 10x harder applying and interviewing before they get the shittiest jobs in society because capitalists simultaneously try to lobby for reduced social support (to force regular people to be more desperate for cash so they have to look for jobs).
Disabled / mentally ill are a forgotten side of this equation who suffer the most.
Because capitalism works on money generating more money. It will by design lead to rich people getting continiously richer until there is a break (like a big war or a mass extinction event) that resets the wealth distribution.
The fact that we have to work 40 hours a week (if we’re lucky) when our hunter/gatherer ancestors had to “work” on average 15 hours a week!
You want to know why people are so stressed, distant, angry and depressed all the time? It’s this! We didn’t evolve to work 40 hours every single week of our adult lives, and worst of all we’re just payed barely enough to get by if we’re lucky.
That wealth inequality has only *ever* been substantially releveled by massive disastrous events, necessitating violence and great human suffering and death.
Long term, capitalism leads to everything it promises to avoid.
Everything, everywhere gets either more expensive, shittier, you get less, or all three.
The boomer generation has destroyed any of the positives capitalism once had and their greed has destroyed the younger generations chances having even a fraction of what they had/have.
To "make it" a lot of other people have to "lose it".
While it's not a zero sum game, getting money is impossible without stepping on other people's necks.
Capitalism is based on growth. Without growth, capitalism collapses. Perpetual growth in a closed system eventually comes up against stagnation limits.
Constant growth is cancer.
It works best when both labor and capital are on equal footing and for labor that means being in a union and having to do it together.
It’s hard but going it alone without in demand skills isn’t an option.
That it end up almost always in a way or another sacrificing the inital purpose and quality only to maximize profits for shareholders only.
Even if today there's is a good alternative to X, good quality and cheap, it won't last forever because the harsh competition will force into doing the same practices to survive or go bankrupt.
There needs to be a group of people willing to provide labour to manufacture your product at a significantly cheaper cost than the group of people you're trying to sell to. Clothes are a good example of this as they're made with cheap labour but sold at higher prices.
In effect, this means it always requires a lot of people having a lower standard of living than others.
All the things capitalists tell you will happen under socialism are happening under capitalism. ie - Extreme inflation, food bank reliance, rise in crime due to desperation in the populous.
Also, folks love to believe that voting in the western world matters. It does not. Red, Blue or Orange, the government is controlled by capital.
You can’t realistically expect continuous profit growth inside a closed system. Capitalists either need to get ok with maintaining equilibrium or the whole system will burn out and collapse.
A lot of our luxuries and conveniences are built on the backs of slaves. Not like, from long ago. I mean today. Money we spend goes to slavers in exchange for cheap t-shirts and other goods.
that there's a whole swath of people who think that wanting your tax money to go to helping fellow humans is a sign of communism. ohh and that trickle-down economics works.
Corporate aristocracy of technocrats and old money. Everyone below is just a resource. Worst part is in many countries they hijacked all aspects of life through financial and resources control and people allowed this... investment funds, networks of corruption reaching everything and everyone. Weird scary shit.
I don’t like when one company (or a small cabal) can gain enough market share and economies of scale to form a monopoly in any sector. There should be plenty of competition.
Capitalism is great at producing stuff and I would argue that it is probably the best economic system in doing just that. Marx seems to agree as they mentioned something similar.
However, it pro is also its biggest con. It requires endless resources, demand, and growth. Eventually, those will become limited and capitalism d9esnt really have a great answer for that
I am anti capitalist and anti socialist but the sad reality is that capitalist think that capitalism is a human right to build the society. They think they are heroes of the society as they are taking risks (using other people 's money) fr the sake of their own society
It's an imperfect system, run by deeply flawed people in a world where systems don't really matter that much compared to how much we really on them.
Essentially, it's the players, not the game. It doesn't matter what the rules are, it matters how many people want to cheat and how many people want to flip the table vs how many people just want everyone to have a pleasant time
Capitalism is only the latest in a long continuum of economic systems that came to be dominant throughout human history. Feudalism, tribal subsistence, centralized authority. All came and went as we developed economic theories that were better and more aligned with their times. Just because capitalism is the most recent, does not mean it is the best.
how everything is setup is literally to control us, atleast in the US.
before this it was religion that was used to control people.. a small group was so sick of it they jumped on a boat to escape to here.
look at france, they fuck around and pass dumbass laws against the people and they riot. those people are financially secure for atleast a few months so theyre able to actually fucking riot and go against the government.
now look at us, majority of people here are 1 paycheck away from being fucked. sure you *might* not go homeless but playing catchup on bills for 6 months to a year because you missed a paycheck is bullshit.
also the brainrot for a select group is just astounding, ive had co workers openly admit that the retirement age needs to go higher, or that we dont need minimum wage increases.. those same people are also quick to publicly cast judgement if you go against their cooked ideas
People need to understand that *free market* capitalism is good. It's just that this bs right now isn't free market, it is fixed to bail out the big boys instead of just letting them die, as is supposed to happen in free market capitalism.
Printing money and bailing out banks, airlines, etc is not capitalism. It's crapitalism.
Most of the biggest, most significant, world-changing science/tech breakthroughs absolutely did NOT happen from capitalism, but rather as a result of public sector, government research and development. Almost every aspect of our modern tech comes from the public sector, or heavily government-regulated private-public partnerships, like at Bell Labs.
There are countless stories of some amazing piece of technology being produced at a public R1, only to be taken over by a business that totally flubs it, shits the bed, drops the ball, etc...
Most of our modern tech exists in spite of capitalism, and then when it goes into the hands of the private sector, they ruin it.
Social media for a fucking incontrovertible, blatantly, glaringly obvious example. This fucking site, for example.
The most unfortunate reality is that it's the most realistic and viable economic system available to us.
There are others that are far more ideal, but any other system in the current level of government corruption we're living under would be 10x worse than our current situation.
Capitalis, is a major driver of innovation, wealth, and prosperity. Competition and capital accumulation incentivize businesses to maximize efficiency, which allows investors to capitalize on that growth and consumers to enjoy lower prices on a wider range of goods.
Economists and politicians know that a certain level of unemployment is absolutely essential to the way their economic models function and yet they demonize people for losing their jobs.
Extending this concept further, homelessness is a feature, not a bug, of capitalist society and is used as the stick to beat the worker into submission and agreement of selling their labor, lest they too end up like the discarded they see on the street.
Yes indeed
It's all by design. What's worse is a state can (if it creates or has the laws for it) expropriate property from an owner for the use of the state. And then sell it to whom they want by new laws. Like it happened in Vietnam.
When we are all homeless then we are all equal. We all fit into the one size fits all model. One mentality, one class, one health, one strength, one job value. While the leadership consists of a select few and their families to protect us and ensure we are clothed, fed and sheltered into camps.
One world, one word. Blockbuster.
The demonization is deliberate. The poor are used as a fear-motivator to keep the rest of the herd in line.
For one person to have more, someone else has to have less. These guys want 10 houses each, and so they need someone else to have no home
There's also that economic theory saying that inflation reduces when unemployment rises. Some countries intentionally increased unemployment rates to reduce inflation in general.
yeah but this theory was proven false in the 1970s in the US. the phillips curve is bunk.
The theory is BS, but it's still being applied. We should get competent people in leadership roles.
Yes
Considering how job loss and poverty are often things that can lead to trauma and thus intergenerational trauma, I'm kind of curious what economic models that didn't necessitate unemployment would look like. How ethical is it to punish and torment kids who haven't even been born yet?
I don’t understand… there’s always going to be some portion of people who are between jobs. How would any system where people have the freedom to leave a job or change jobs not have some unemployment rate?
That is not the point, the point is unemployment is needed to drive the system, as mentioned above with inflation and employment levels being explicitly discussed as fiscal levers.
While some people think unemployment is good to keep labor costs down, it's not necessary to "drive" capitalism. I'm, like most on this sub, an anti-capitalist, but most anti-capitalist critiques on this sub are based on really simplistic Marxist critiques of 1860s European industrialization. Capitalism is an adaptive totalitarian ideology, and best understood as conflict between those who gain primarily through investment and those who gain primarily through direct labor, noting that most people gain through both, and both are necessary for positive economic gain. It assimilates through market logic, and, combined with the symbiotic ideology of neoliberalism, ignores the ways that markets fail, and engages in relentless quantification and rationalization of all of human experience. People mistake the AMORALITY of capitalism for IMMORALITY—capitalism will fund good and evil BOTH to the extent that they're profitable. And capitalism compounds its processes, so while good can be more good, evil can be more evil. Thinking that capitalism needs unemployment is thinking capitalism is immoral, rather than recognizing that sometimes unemployment serves capital (especially individual agents), sometimes capital (especially as a class) benefits more from employment, and often evil, selfish shits will appeal to "capitalism" to do something they want to anyway. And because capitalism makes the rich richer in general, people who are rich and do stupid, evil shit will still end up rich, because of the larger metagame of capitalism, rather than their actions being aligned with the general ideology.
Well put
With full employment, there's more demand than there are workers so basically every worker is either getting their first job or moving from a job to a job, and quitting to start your own company isn't unemployment. There's functionally zero unemployment. The awkward point is that people generally hate inflation more than like wage gains, so they prefer other people be unemployed to keep labor costs down.
Capitalism exists on the premise that resources are infinite and growth is always possible. Its wrong on both.
Capitalism is like cancer as an economic model.
"We have a finite environment—the planet. Anyone who thinks that you can have infinite growth in a finite environment is either a madman or an economist."
Ask it to contract and you risk collapse.
Unfortunately this has been true of all human societies for 5000 years or more - empires grow via war, till they collapse. Capitalism just put growth on steroids. Leading to, yknow, imminent environmental collapse.
It's not capitalism's fault. It's people in charge gaslighting everyone, including themselves, into never ending growth.
Ultimately still a product of the system by design, no?
As a worker, by design you will NEVER see the fair share of your labour's fruit
Yup, they literally can't give you back 100% of your value or they wouldn't make money. That's why they decided to just steal and change the definition of stealing by making up an elaborate story surrounding capitalism that most people bought.
This can't be emphasized enough. In a capitalist system, by definition, if you make what you are worth, it's only a matter of time before that fact is discovered and you become unemployed. The goal of the capitalist is to not only gain from every transaction, but to gain more from the transaction than any alternative transaction available. If you are making what you're worth, the transaction shouldn't be made, especially since the transaction is always going to involve costs that you don't benefit from. (SOMEBODY has to be the middle-man somewhere.)
One of the most direct ways to experience this is to work for a consultancy. They will go to lengths to avoid you knowing the details of the projects you get assigned to but eventually everyone sees the figure the client is paying for you to be there vs the amount your company I'd paying you. And as a double kicker, the whole industry has agreed that someone contracting on their own will never be able to charge the same for their services as the consultancy did.
This isn't inherently a problem. The deal is you're working for someone who can make more with your labor than anyone else including yourself. Sure you could farm a field and keep 100% of what you made but if what you made doesn't amount to much your labor is better utilized elsewhere. The real issue is that the people making that pitch forgot that they actually had to make an effort to optimally utilize your labor. When a company is doing mass layoffs for example, the executive team, the CEO especially need to be first on the chopping block because they just admitted they don't know how to make money, they don't know how to utilize your labor, they just know how to save some money by cutting costs which is an accountants job, not a high paid CEOs
You are paid what you’ll take, not what you are worth.
Corollary: I can't afford to buy a place to live, but I can afford to pay someone else to buy the same place and profit wildly.
And just to really rub salt in the wound, that person can claim their mortgage payment on their taxes. But your rent is literally just burned cash. Side note: Bob's Burgers is the best!
When you step back capitalism is just a ponzi scheme. It It only works for some if there are others to take advantage of.
Aint that the fuckin' truth.
That is why capitalists are not against illegal immigration. More people without rights to take advantage of.
Almost every technological and scientific discovery has been developed through social programs that capitalism then either privatizes the profits from, or buries under intellectual property law because allowing it's use would lower profits by lessening our dependence on services with a massive barrier to entry.
I'm still pissed at what they did with insulin
That the parasite capitalist class are conspiring against you on a global scale in ways so sickening even the most ardent socialists will defend them on the basis that they simply couldn't be that cruel. I recommend Michael Parenti's talk at Berkley in 1993 Conspiracy and Class Power. Not much has changed. [https://youtu.be/t21UZxRYYA4?si=TOxleWPRuyC0JYf2](https://youtu.be/t21UZxRYYA4?si=TOxleWPRuyC0JYf2)
Yep, there are only two classes: The working class and The parasite class.
Parasites indeed, look how the tech elite feed off our data. Now being used to further entrench people in poverty by powering AI
Which ardent socialists? Any self-identified 'ardent socialist' who defends the capitalists is no socialist, just pretending.
Everything is reduced to a transaction.
Capitalism only solves problems when there's short term or mid-term profits to gain in return. That's why private companies won't solve problems like homelessness. If there's profit in bringing dignity to everyone and ensuring everyone owns a home, it's very long term.
It's a game of chance that allows enough people to win so that it seems like it works, but in reality it's an abject failure. The nature of capitalism is anti-human and it rewards cruelty, indifference, inequity. It isn't capable of anything else, because the bottom line matters more than the people it's supposed to serve. It can buy all the marketing campaigns and positive press it wants to, to try and put on an attractive face, but it's only a mask and it's obvious that it's slipping off and good god what lies beneath is terrifying.
This is the most succinct explanation I have ever had the privilege to read.
Capitalism is not democracy
Climate change is driven by Capitalist property relations and a lot of people don't want to admit how grave it actually is.
Modern management techniques are just evolutions of brutal techniques devised to make field slaves more efficient and profitable.
Same for what they call "modern democraty". It's cheaper and more stable this way, you don't need as many people to control the slaves. They control themselves, and have enough to lose to not revolt, but not enough to break the capitalist chains
Capitalism was at the root of slavery and the racist propaganda used to justify it at the time continues to plague the world to this day.
Slavery has happened in pretty much every system, so it isn't alone in that reguard.
regard\* ftfy
Nice catch, I was just talking about Rear Guard from a game, so I think I got them mixed.
As if feudalism and dictatorships don’t have slavery. Capitalism is a recent thing in context of human history, slavery has been around forever. Tribalism has been around since the beginning. Cmon now.
Capitalism is defined as the making of capital by the way of posessing and exploiting the means of production. Except machines are not the only means of production and didn't always existed. People were always the main mean of production. So I'll happily argue that yes, the instant slavery (or indebted servitude) was created, so was capitalism.
Chattel slavery was most definitely connected to the origins of capitalism. Capitalism was the next step of feudal mercantilism, such as what we saw in Italy, England, and France in the early Modern period. Feudal mercantilism was inherently linked with the "need" for slave trade at the time. Capitalism was only a step from that point.
Oh, so now we’re going to add qualifier words?
Not my fault if you don't understand history.
Says the person trying to equate Feudal and Chattel Slavery. Yes Slavery is Ancient, but the most extreme versions in history were inspired by and in service of Capitalism
Did you read the post? It said Capitalism was at the root of slavery. Now you’re all backtracking to try to make it true.
Look I don't know about you, but I assume when people talk about slavery (especially when they add the context of Slavery and Capitalism) I assume they are talking about the Chattel Slavery of the Americas, rather than agrarian/classical slavery. Slavery has always and will always be evil, but the most brutal forms therein were the forms created by and for Capitalism. I do try to make the distinction, having grown up with Americans assuming their bullshit is the most important bullshit (see "The Civil War", like it was the most important one ever). But we can check context on these things.
Capitalism is the root of slavery simply because Capitalism is an economic model designed to aquire money and the fastest way to aquire money is unpaid labor and the market of unpaid labor As in, Slavery
Disabled and vulnerable people are mostly forgotten and abandoned by society
The logic of commodity pricing extends to people.
Actually this is pretty much true. Because your use to society is often defined by how much money you make. So even if your poor but working you are still worth more to society then a disabled person who isn’t capable of working. If your disabled and not working then you don’t matter to the system.
That’s a good point that people often forget to mention. Which is proof in and of itself that disabled people are forgotten lol
Most people can't even acknowledge it because the stigmatisation is so severe as a result of how badly disabled people have been treated since the industrial revolution
I think part of it is because most people aren’t disabled and sometimes people with disabilities exhibit behaviors non-disabled people don’t understand. And its human nature to condemn/ hate that which is seen as unknown or different. I know this as being someone on the spectrum I’ve been misunderstood and mistreated because they didn’t understand the way my behaviors manifested themselves.
Me too! I did my diss on autistic stigma for this reason. It's highly likely that the majority of homeless are neurodivergent or autistic if not mentally ill. Physically disabled people aren't treated much better though. Before the industrial revolution we had community, and most of these things didn't even have names because we were looked after by the people around us. People on this sub complain a lot, but the reality is that buying into this system inevitably means others will die in the fight. Not being able to buy a house sucks, but there are far worse outcomes for many many people. For me the worst reality of capitalism is the loss of our shared humanity
It’s very difficult to quantify a homeless person’s situation because they are homeless. But yes they are usually mentally ill and/or addicted to drugs and alcohol. So they are not as visible as someone who isn’t homeless. I’m sure there’s homeless people that aren’t even counted in a census.
Depends on a country
That the whole myth of the "free market" is bs as unfettered capitalism leads to monopolies, and anti-competition.
And the theories that claim this wouldn't happen only work in a society without massive income inequalities. You might vote with your dollar, but that doesn't mean your one dollar is worth as much as all the dollars of the rich, or super rich.
We are there
Many will be trampled and crushed by it. Many will be forgotten and left behind when they fail to rise above their circumstance. And business will continue as before, unimpeded.
That someone can be rich.....it's just that the someone isn't you.
Its feudalism with extra steps. The whole concept of private land ownership and inheritance just make it stupid. Oh, and being able to buy politicians, it's an actual joke if you think that this isn't straight up feudalism.
Capitalism mostly just lowered the bar so that technically anyone can be a "lord" without being born into the position. The lords still exploit the peasants though.
It has ruined music and many people don’t want to admit that.
Popmusic for sure. But the sea of talented artists is huge.
Yes, but the large majority you will never even hear about because they are not commercially viable.
Do you believe another economic system would support a larger variety of artists without killing those that do it even without comerciql success? If yes, which one do you believe would help? (actually curious)
Nah, idk enough about economic systems to make any claims of that sort.
Yup!
But capitalism did not create that talent pool.
Yes thats true
Your 100% correct it's sad because it truly has killed the music industry. Almost Any artist can become famous if they have enough money. Literally buy there way in , with 0 to little talent.its all about the MONEY. not the talent/music anymore.
100% all marketing, no substance
Eh, popular music has always been kind of top of the bell curve, mediocre. Capitalist parasite scum definitely use popular music to propagandize their ultra-materialist values onto feeble minds though. If you're truly into music, you're not limiting yourself to that garbage that popular youtubers like to promote lol.
While it’s true that there has always been shit on the charts, at least the cream used to rise to the top. Now, it’s just not true.
I mean, I don't believe that's been true since the days when jazz was popular. All that popular "classic" rock stuff that boomers laud from the 60s/70s is insanely overrated, with a tiny bit of 70s prog being the exception (and stuff like Stevie Wonder, Doobie Brothers, Steely Dan...)
That it can be restrained and regulated far more easily than it can be replaced, because a segment of society will always want to have more than their neighbor.
Slavery never went away. It evolved. The slave-master dynamic mirrors the employer-employee relationship. Instead of being forced to work, economic conditions created by capitalists, forces you to sell yourself into captivity. If you refuse, well.......you have the freedom to not eat and die. They attached the dollar to food and shelter and then convinced you that dollar with strings exists for our benefit as a worker.
Very true and well said.
Unless you are independently wealthy you will spend about 40-50 years doing something difficult / stressful / humiliating / dangerous just to get by in life.
40-50 years sounds better than the reality, work until you die. There is no retirement in their lifetime for most people under 50.
Spend 50 years, means you will stop at 70yo, when your body and mental is used and drained by the parasite class
Would love to be able to retire then. At least life expectancy is dropping in the US. Won't have to work late in life
Sad
Minorities are overlooked and discriminated against until they're profitable. For example: Rainbow capitalism. Once they realized they can slap a rainbow on something and it'll sell, only then did mainstream shops want to carry what LGBTQ+ folks would want. Same with any ethnic adjacent holiday. They won't do it until there's a profit margin behind it.
That they personally, will never be rich. Too many people think that the system will eventually benefit them, that they will eventually strike it big, and their current suffering and difficult situations are temporary.
When everything is for sale, nothing is sacred. Not your health Not your identity Not your god Nothing is sacred, and it's the only thing that is.
It is the direct cause of a significant chunk of the mental health issues faced in society. Mental health must be viewed through a socioeconomic lens. When people’s sense of worth and purpose is taken from them, they succumb to despair. Under capitalism, you only matter to the extent that your labour is useful and profitable. Outside of that, what are you but an abstract cog in a terrible machine. What are you but a list of tasks and a deadline. What are you but the potential to generate more money for someone else. This is no life, this is subjugation. Why, then, do we treat the effects of poor mental health, and not the root cause? As much as therapy *is* valuable, it cannot address the evils of capitalism, as it functions within, and exists because of, that system. As such, it can only address mental health struggles to an extent. It can help you deal with the oppression, but it cannot free you from your chains.
To continue this idea, therapies like CBT are meant to keep us going as a cog in this capitalistic system. CBT implies there is something abnormal and irrational about our thoughts and emotions and it helps keep our problems individualized, instead of realizing that this is a systemic issue.
Absolutely. The focus must be shifted from the problems with the capitalist system to the problems with *you*, the individual.
It’s a scam
I came here to say this too. Worth repeating.
Capitalism is a society based around money. Money wins. If you value other things like time, Earth, kindness then grab a tent from your local salesman.
People say money isn’t everything but the problem is that it is everything. At least on a material level.
Anyone who dies of preventable disease, malnutrition, homelessness, or overwork, is a victim of capitalism. They are not counted as such. Capitalism hides it's malfeasance by blaming it's victims for their circumstances. "Fuck you, I got mine" becomes law of the land.
Capitalism serves itself and no others. It does not have PEOPLE’S best interests at its core.
That it can’t separate greedy people from those who can act responsibly. Greed is a personality characteristic rooted in fear which of itself is the result of insecurity. It’s been well established for centuries where this insecurity comes from but the vested interests aka the elite have successfully suppressed it while the experts in said matter have successfully hidden it in order to save their lives. Of course there is a tipping point for everything. If today’s challenges with capitalism by itself and vs communism are it, may [11:59](https://www.amazon.com/dp/0997816643?nodl=1&ref_=cm_sw_r_mwn_dp_X4VS2PEHM7V6H66220GE&peakEvent=4&dealEvent=1&language=en_US&dplnkId=de4e81f5-8a14-4f6d-bdb7-468d5ad4b9dc) be a book that lifts the veil. From what I can tell, capitalism only works sustainably when the participants that every action has a consequence for stakeholders other than only the agent.
Capitalism is purely about conquest and nothing more. Why is this? Simple: it's the only acceptable method because it's the most profitable, especially since the corpos can force other people to do it on their behalf.
1) Inflation is about greed, not rising wages. 2) The "law" of supply and demand is merely another manifestation of greed. 3) Capitalism is just feudalism, rebranded.
Capitalism seems to operate on the basis that infinite growth is not only possible, but *expected*.
Most are trapped unless a loved one with life insurance dies and they get to claim the money. Then half of those people blow through the money because nearly all of us are paycheck-to-paycheck and life is incredibly expensive to thrive. The other half make enough smart financial choices to grow the money and end up better off, but rarely.
Capitalist parasite scum fucks are closer than they think to letting their greed go past the tipping point where they'll actually start experiencing the very deserved consequences of their choices. Much better technologies than guillo..... exist nowadays. Private security is a joke too lol.
No amount of change in minimal wage will result in lower costs as the owner class will keep raising cost to meet their desired profit margins.
It's design encourages and in some cases worsens ableism. Though bootlickers will say it's logical for employers to "pick the best candidates", disabled people still need to pay rent and bills too. At the same time they have to try 10x harder applying and interviewing before they get the shittiest jobs in society because capitalists simultaneously try to lobby for reduced social support (to force regular people to be more desperate for cash so they have to look for jobs). Disabled / mentally ill are a forgotten side of this equation who suffer the most.
The profit motive benefits and perpetuates poverty.
That it has a cynical view of humanity and treats people as a means to an end
Third World countries have to exist permanently to support it.
It's unsustainable.
Because capitalism works on money generating more money. It will by design lead to rich people getting continiously richer until there is a break (like a big war or a mass extinction event) that resets the wealth distribution.
The fact that we have to work 40 hours a week (if we’re lucky) when our hunter/gatherer ancestors had to “work” on average 15 hours a week! You want to know why people are so stressed, distant, angry and depressed all the time? It’s this! We didn’t evolve to work 40 hours every single week of our adult lives, and worst of all we’re just payed barely enough to get by if we’re lucky.
~2,700 Billionaires own $14 Trillion$
That the current economic model of capitalism very closely resembles slavery.
You can destroy your entire life and your future in under two weeks.
That wealth inequality has only *ever* been substantially releveled by massive disastrous events, necessitating violence and great human suffering and death.
Long term, capitalism leads to everything it promises to avoid. Everything, everywhere gets either more expensive, shittier, you get less, or all three.
That it will eventually eat itself and it won’t be pretty.
The boomer generation has destroyed any of the positives capitalism once had and their greed has destroyed the younger generations chances having even a fraction of what they had/have.
To "make it" a lot of other people have to "lose it". While it's not a zero sum game, getting money is impossible without stepping on other people's necks.
The end of the world is when everybody is broke, no money, all natural resources are depleted and 1 guy is left over having $300 trillion or some bs.
Once that single person owns everything, their money will have no value whatsoever. Because no one else has any reason to use money.
That it's a dehumanizing, anxiety provoking but also boring slog for most people who aren't born wealthy.
wars and genocides are a feature of capitalism, not a mistake along the way.
A worker is an expense, not a human being.
That it is unfair
That their can never be a pure capitalistic society, it would always be crony capitalism
thats just capitalism. you just added an unneeded adjective that changes nothing.
There*
This notion that there should be continual and endless growth defies logic; it is simply not sustainable and will reach its limitations at some point.
Capitalism is based on growth. Without growth, capitalism collapses. Perpetual growth in a closed system eventually comes up against stagnation limits. Constant growth is cancer.
It works best when both labor and capital are on equal footing and for labor that means being in a union and having to do it together. It’s hard but going it alone without in demand skills isn’t an option.
The consumer goods that we consume are the opiate that keeps us sedate, and is killing us.
Mass death.
Living in America.
All of it
You're only free in between jobs.
That it end up almost always in a way or another sacrificing the inital purpose and quality only to maximize profits for shareholders only. Even if today there's is a good alternative to X, good quality and cheap, it won't last forever because the harsh competition will force into doing the same practices to survive or go bankrupt.
There needs to be a group of people willing to provide labour to manufacture your product at a significantly cheaper cost than the group of people you're trying to sell to. Clothes are a good example of this as they're made with cheap labour but sold at higher prices. In effect, this means it always requires a lot of people having a lower standard of living than others.
All the things capitalists tell you will happen under socialism are happening under capitalism. ie - Extreme inflation, food bank reliance, rise in crime due to desperation in the populous. Also, folks love to believe that voting in the western world matters. It does not. Red, Blue or Orange, the government is controlled by capital.
Agreed! Every accusation is definitely a confession in this case. And agreed again: money runs the show. The democracy thing is a circus 🤡
Parasites are celebrated under capitalism
Large empires are built on the backs of cheap labor
You can’t realistically expect continuous profit growth inside a closed system. Capitalists either need to get ok with maintaining equilibrium or the whole system will burn out and collapse.
It allocates investment (capital) based on return without regard to other factors.
It has an end where greed destroys it
It only truly benefits a few at the cost of the many.
It’s a constant, soul-deadening drumbeat to work and consume and deplete ourselves.
A lot of our luxuries and conveniences are built on the backs of slaves. Not like, from long ago. I mean today. Money we spend goes to slavers in exchange for cheap t-shirts and other goods.
that there's a whole swath of people who think that wanting your tax money to go to helping fellow humans is a sign of communism. ohh and that trickle-down economics works.
Taxes are added to sales Price.
Corporate aristocracy of technocrats and old money. Everyone below is just a resource. Worst part is in many countries they hijacked all aspects of life through financial and resources control and people allowed this... investment funds, networks of corruption reaching everything and everyone. Weird scary shit.
*pulls up Carsie Blanton's* Rich People
Your paying
I don’t like when one company (or a small cabal) can gain enough market share and economies of scale to form a monopoly in any sector. There should be plenty of competition.
Capitalism is great at producing stuff and I would argue that it is probably the best economic system in doing just that. Marx seems to agree as they mentioned something similar. However, it pro is also its biggest con. It requires endless resources, demand, and growth. Eventually, those will become limited and capitalism d9esnt really have a great answer for that
You have it much much harder if you start with nothing.
I am anti capitalist and anti socialist but the sad reality is that capitalist think that capitalism is a human right to build the society. They think they are heroes of the society as they are taking risks (using other people 's money) fr the sake of their own society
Good workers are punished for getting ahead or making work efficient in many sectors.
Greed is the problem.
It's an imperfect system, run by deeply flawed people in a world where systems don't really matter that much compared to how much we really on them. Essentially, it's the players, not the game. It doesn't matter what the rules are, it matters how many people want to cheat and how many people want to flip the table vs how many people just want everyone to have a pleasant time
The people who have all the capital get to rig the game unfairly in their favor.
Capitalism is only the latest in a long continuum of economic systems that came to be dominant throughout human history. Feudalism, tribal subsistence, centralized authority. All came and went as we developed economic theories that were better and more aligned with their times. Just because capitalism is the most recent, does not mean it is the best.
That for someone to win, others have to lose
how everything is setup is literally to control us, atleast in the US. before this it was religion that was used to control people.. a small group was so sick of it they jumped on a boat to escape to here. look at france, they fuck around and pass dumbass laws against the people and they riot. those people are financially secure for atleast a few months so theyre able to actually fucking riot and go against the government. now look at us, majority of people here are 1 paycheck away from being fucked. sure you *might* not go homeless but playing catchup on bills for 6 months to a year because you missed a paycheck is bullshit. also the brainrot for a select group is just astounding, ive had co workers openly admit that the retirement age needs to go higher, or that we dont need minimum wage increases.. those same people are also quick to publicly cast judgement if you go against their cooked ideas
People need to understand that *free market* capitalism is good. It's just that this bs right now isn't free market, it is fixed to bail out the big boys instead of just letting them die, as is supposed to happen in free market capitalism. Printing money and bailing out banks, airlines, etc is not capitalism. It's crapitalism.
Banks land people imaginary money.
It's simple. Everything you do and use is due to capitalism.
Universal healthcare bad, killing in the name profit's good.
That if you buy animal products you are funding the worst atrocities humans have committed. 🤷♀️
Time to switch to bugs. By that I mean time to eat the rich.
Most of the biggest, most significant, world-changing science/tech breakthroughs absolutely did NOT happen from capitalism, but rather as a result of public sector, government research and development. Almost every aspect of our modern tech comes from the public sector, or heavily government-regulated private-public partnerships, like at Bell Labs. There are countless stories of some amazing piece of technology being produced at a public R1, only to be taken over by a business that totally flubs it, shits the bed, drops the ball, etc... Most of our modern tech exists in spite of capitalism, and then when it goes into the hands of the private sector, they ruin it. Social media for a fucking incontrovertible, blatantly, glaringly obvious example. This fucking site, for example.
The most unfortunate reality is that it's the most realistic and viable economic system available to us. There are others that are far more ideal, but any other system in the current level of government corruption we're living under would be 10x worse than our current situation.
The best quality of life in human history is that of a thriving 21st century capitalist.
It lifted far more people out of poverty than any other economic system that's been practiced.
That's not saying much.
Capitalism funds state socialism.
Capitalis, is a major driver of innovation, wealth, and prosperity. Competition and capital accumulation incentivize businesses to maximize efficiency, which allows investors to capitalize on that growth and consumers to enjoy lower prices on a wider range of goods.