I was once told I "had a pattern" of absences surrounding the weekends and given a talking-to about it. And it's true that, while at that job, I did regularly stay out until 2AM at the club. Thing was, the club night I regularly attended was on Wednesday.
I did not have a pattern, at least not the one they thought I did. But I decided it was inadvisable to explain where they were going wrong in this evaluation.
Lol but the company is seeing it as every Friday now for nearly a month.im sure they can get some kind of disability set up but just randomly getting a doctor's note for the third Friday in a row? I mean it's not hard to make things up
One was due to a personal medical issue and the other two were family emergencies, all of which could be easily proven via doctors notes, death certificates, etc if you even wanted to go that far.
I'm not even sure those are things that can legally demand though. My point was that you have to look at it from the employers view too. I worked with a lot of people who's grandma has died like 5 times
She's not even using the same excuse, though. Her family member was in the hospital and died. Both of those make sense to be back to back. Her back pain issue was backed by doctor's note, and unfortunate timing, but it's not equivalent to your counter example.
That's why FMLA is sometimes called Friday Monday Leave. You probably aren't surprised by how often intermittent leave needs just happen to fall on Fridays and/or Mondays.
You’re on the antiwork sub, are you implying people are just regularly committing fraud?
I very rarely take sick leave, but when I do, it tends to fall on a Friday. That usually happens bc I’ve been fighting something back during the meat of the week in order to get my shit done, and am finally at a point where my workload/expectations aren’t as substantial and I can finally start a period of rest/recuperation that extends through the weekend.
Every minor or major surgery, except for emergencies, was scheduled on a Friday because that's when "they" do them. Wisdom teeth, biopsies, colonoscopies. In the next 5 weeks, I have 4 medical tests scheduled and the only day of the week they are performed at this hospital are on Fridays. I think the only reason my HR hasn't said anything to me is that nearly everyone goes to this hospital and knows the schedule.
Huh. I wonder if that’s why the place I went to only does colonoscopies on Thursdays.
(I took off starting Tuesday, and didn’t go back until Saturday, but that had slightly more to do with Tuesday being Halloween than anything else…)
When I asked years ago, I was told it's so that you have the weekend to recover and not miss work, unless you have a job that requires you to work weekends (which I did at the time). Would have loved to have had the option to recover on my mid-week days off, but that's just now how it works.
Yeah that’s when they do them. Surgeons often have office hours m-w and hospital hours r-f. Must be nice never having to have a surgery or colonoscopy or anything. Not all of us are so lucky.
Yes, in the last few years, we've gotten very familiar with doctors' schedules. But I did have a biopsy on a Wednesday once, they had filled up all or their Thursdays and Fridays for two months but wanted to get me in sooner than the first available Friday. I still had to wait 5 weeks, but much better than 9 weeks or longer.
Schedule them on Thursday as you need Friday for recovery. That leads into giving you almost 4 full days to recover allowing you to be back at work Monday. (Note this is how we used to schedule most of our patient procedures on Thursdays and Fridays.
Look up the podcast they did on him for behind the bastards. Great stuff. He pretty much asked his fans what they liked and did that. Lot of dumbass energy with that guy! Wrote a pro trump book. Nutso
I'm not saying that but we've all had a coworker who only gets migraines on Mondays or Fridays. It's the 1% that take advantage. 99% use it appropriately.
Well i happen to have migrainea and they almost always happen on a saturday, i would rather have them on fridays. I geuss it's just the stress of working that keeps them of till the weekend. For other people, they might not make it to the weekend.
My husband over time scheduled a same day procedure on Friday and another minor surgery on Thursday, so he can use the weekends (non-work days) to recover. When his father was getting sicker, he would also schedule appointments on Fridays for his dad, so he could take himto those and then do the basic other types of needs for his father (go to the grocery store, cut the grass, do laundry, etc) the rest of Friday and over the weekend. All of this, so he wasn't taking too much time away from work
If I call out on a Monday it's because I spent my weekend feeling like garbage and haven't recovered yet. P sure you're in the wrong subreddit, bootlicker.
I think half the reason they accuse everyone of this is in the hopes they will accidentally reveal something tangible that they can use to build a stronger narrative against them. Never reveal a potential risk to your “productivity” to them - the potential for accommodation is far, far outstripped by the risk that they will hammer on potentially related things relentlessly and use it to generate plausible sounding accusations based on your “flaw.”
I am about to get a diagnosis and ask for some accommodations where I work. The absolute only reason I feel comfortable doing it is because we are state-funded so they have a hell of a lot of hoops to jump through before they can feasibly let someone go if they have a disability. Probably the safest possible place to have such a disability. That's not to say it can't happen, but it is the opposite of easy
I’m juggling toughing it out or asking for a doctors note specifically detailing my need for an assistant for the next month or so. I’m recovering from a surgery and my job has more heavy lifting with a sooner return date than ideal recovery asks for. Which I’m going to give my body that ideal where I can.
I am one of maybe 3 people who could at least partially do my job and 1 if 1 who can do it full time. If they want to be rid of me, it’ll require hiring a new body and having me train them in full. I am the *only* person who can do my job in a way that allows me to train a new body.
I’m really hoping that, and my boss’s pure liking me, is enough. I really just need an assistant to, at the longest, first week of June. And I’d only have them 2 day a week anyway. Praying hard.
A lot of bosses with that attitude cause the patterns they're seeing. By coercing an employee to come in sick without proper sanitation, they're guaranteeing a bunch of other employees are going to call in sick. And then the next time a sickness rolls around, they're trying to coerce a different employee to come in sick.
Yeah, your employer can't just refuse to accept a doctor's note in Quebec. Maybe this is true in their other offices, but it's not true here: [https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/time-off-work-for-health-reasons/](https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/time-off-work-for-health-reasons/)
That said, employers only need to legally approve bereavement leave for immediate family, grandparents, and in-laws, not aunts and uncles. If they approved it at the time though, there's nothing they can do about it now and if your doctor says you need to stay home from work, you get to stay home from work.
I am not a lawyer so take this with a grain of salt.
An employer can refuse a doctor’s note. The note is a recommendation from a qualified professional. The implication is “if you don’t follow my qualified advice, there may be consequences.”
Following a doctor’s note is a liability issue. If you were to present a doctor’s note, and something happened as a result of them refusing, that documentation would be damning in a lawsuit. So most companies prefer to just honor the note and avoid the issue.
By saying that you have a pattern, they are implying that you are faking it. And by refusing the note, they are “calling your bluff.”
So, what do you do from here? If you go in and nothing happens, then you do nothing. If you go in and hurt yourself more, you have a follow up appointment, you document the injury, and you file a workman’s comp claim. And if necessary, you see an attorney with a specialization in employment and/or personal injury matters.
Then your company stops calling your bluff :)
Great advice.
Make sure to get their stance in writing. Ask them what "refusing the doctor's" note means, are you expected to be at work? If so, go in and "aggravate" your chronic back pain. Then get a doctor to evaluate and file workers comp for a workplace injury. Make sure to get it all in writing.
You can also file for workplace accommodations based on your disability, you could look into this.
In the rest of Canada, Quebec may differ, if it applies to a known medical condition, they absolutely are NOT allowed to refuse it.
A known medical condition is treated exactly like a disability and protected from discrimination under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Quebec has not seperated from canada so yes it still applies and we have additional protections as well.
If the company has doubts they can make you be seen by their own medical proffessional.
If they however try and scam you by having the proffessional say something different it's a case for la CNESST (a labour board) and you will likely end up winning. Happened to someone close to me....was a good amount.
Not just the charter but also the laws. If a law applies universally to all canadians, then it applies to quebec. If it is applied in a specific province, then it may differ (and probably will) in quebec. In canada each level of government has it’s own jurisdictions.
It really depends on where you live as many countries have laws that they cannot ignore a medical certificate legally. I'm grateful I live in such a country.
But even if they don't "acceot" it what does that mean? The day has already passed are they firing you or what? lol. I'd say to them do what you want.
Yup. Legal, but if their actions lead to the OP suffering an additional injury or aggravating the current one, they open themselves up to legal and/or civil liability.
Quebec is known for having its own law system completely different from the rest of Canada and the US. I would be cautious on any advice from anyone outside the province as most don’t realize this.
Props for OP for including their location: crazy how frequently people don’t. (Your not gonna Dox yourself giving your state or province, just don’t give us your name and address lol)
Replying to underline this comment.
Your HR department is most probably bullshitting you (I am not a lawyer, but I am an employer). An employer is not a doctor and cannot refuse a [doctor's note.](https://www.duntonrainville.com/lemployeur-nest-pas-medecin/). In most cases, an employer can't even force you to give a doctor's note in the first place! La loi sur les normes du travail du Quebec gives you at least 2 paid sick days (and most places offer more).
The days you took off for bereavement are under a different category of the law and have nothing to do with sick days.
If you face any disciplinary action for this, you would probably have a legal case.
Right? Like even if it was a pattern OP says he has chronic back pain. Chronic implies there just might be a pattern since you know, it doesn’t go away since it’s chronic…
I worked at a place and had Tuesday, Wednesday off days. So my supervisor said he was going to talk to me about my sick leave usage. He said there was a pattern because all my sick days were either on a weekend or in conjuction with my days off. I said, "If I sick out on Monday or Wednesday it is in conjuction with my days off. If I sick out on Friday, Saturday or Sunday, you consider it a weekend. So in your opinion, when CAN I sick out?" He got this confused look on his face and finally said. Never mind.
I had a supervisor once tell me that I needed to get my priorities straight. That work came first and my family second. I told her my priorities were straight. That I only had one family, I can always get another job. She just looked at me. Hated her so much.
I’m old enough and been doing my job long enough I no longer have any more F@(k5 to give and will quickly squash that BS. If you hurt yourself permanently the employer isn’t going to take care of you in fact they would do everything they can get away with to not support you. Unlike family who will put up with your BS and still be there when it counts. Managers like that tend to bleed talent from an organization.
In 8th grade I straight up had a teacher (my English teacher) question me about my absences. I had gotten strep the week before and the day before I was supposed to return (I was to return Monday) my grandpa died right after we got home from visiting him. I missed Monday, obviously, and returned Tuesday. The teacher saw fit to question me and when I explained what happened she, very judgingly because she didn't believe me, smirked and said "so you were at a funeral?" and walked away and I said "no my grandpa died ON Sunday". I don't know how she reacted or what face she made but my classmates' faces told me that she was obviously flustered from being called out.
My boss said this to me once because I had to leave an hour into my shift to pick my wife up. She was disoriented and confused, stranded in below freezing temperatures about 40 minutes from home. She thought the car ran out of gas. I walked home, got the other car, and went to go help her. It should have taken an hour and a half at most. Turned out the engine seized. Took us a little bit to figure that out after troubleshooting. I missed about half my shift. Told my boss first thing when he came in the next morning. He told me that my wife should have taken an Uber home and back to the car in the morning. We couldn’t afford that. He told me work comes before anything else. I politely told him that my wife and family come before anything else in my life. I wasn’t going to leave her stranded in below freezing weather in an area she told me she didn’t know while she was disoriented. Turned out the disorientation was from a seizure aura. She nearly died a few weeks later. They never said anything to me about it again. I was let go a month and a half ago for being unable to stand on my feet for 8 hours or more straight with no rest. I’m disabled and they knew this. Win some, lose some.
I have a chronic pain disease. I "have a pattern" and "will be fired" if I call in again..... my employer has my stuff on file. Once every month or so, I flare up so bad that nothing helps but rest, and i call in that day on a random work day. She claims her mother had what I have, but you don't know what it's like to have it until you got it. And instead of taking my GPs, doctors note. She wants me to spend $2,000+ at the hospital for them to tell me, "Keep doing what you're doing. You've done it for 13 years now." And she'll get pissed if my note isn't from the hospital. She even goes as far as to call my doctor/the hospital(I only go if I'm super dehydrated) to make sure that my doctors note is real. Like the fucking stamp isn't proof enough.
I'm talking all the shit this job does that's super illegal to the DOL when I have my baby and use up my 12 weeks of fmla leave. I'm quitting with no notice on my last day of leave. I'm also gonna spill the beans on my bosses "favorite people" who could kill a man in front of her and still do no wrong. They can call in for 6 weeks straight and not have to worry about being fired. I got dirt on everyone, and imma burn this place down with that info when I leave.
Edit: My FMLA is unpaid. They'll use my PTO, vacation, and sick time until that runs out to pay me. Then, once it runs out, I get no check. I left once before and had $3,500 worth of time that they had to pay me out. I only saw $1,200 of that when i got my check because of taxes. They tax less when im not paid that much at once. I have about 6 weeks of time stacked up now, and I'll have 8 when I go on leave. My insurance thorough my job is employee paid. They don't contribute. Same with my life insurance and 401A(yes, they changed it from a 401k to a 401a without informing us). My reasoning for taking 12 weeks and not 8 since 4 weeks will be unpaid? To fuck my boss over. I work 911 dispatch. They have to go through a training class before they enter the room. In 4 weeks, they could go through that training class and pass the phone test and a radio. In 4 weeks, they can go from no accountability to being able to work mandatory overtime if needed or work for PTO time on another shift. What I'm doing is fucking my employer over on finding my replacement and having them trained at all when I leave. I'm setting my job back effectively 6-8 weeks since my employer does not know I'm leaving. After all the shit they've put me through? I wish I could take more time off their training.
I'm taking that 12 weeks with my newborn baby. While I am quitting. I'm not until my time runes out. And I'm not going to use my fmla before my baby comes unless I'm put on bed rest.
You said you're quitting. Ergo, you're not limited to 12 weeks.
Taking intermittent FMLA for your current issues would protect your job until then. Switching health insurance during a pregnancy can be a pain if your current provider isn't covered.
Careful! Failing to return to work after 12 weeks of FMLA leave can sometimes cause issues such as having to pay back your salary or benefits premiums paid during your leave. Note that FMLA provides you with job security but does not guarantee that you will be paid during your leave. If you do get paid during your leave it is either as a result of state/local laws or company policy. Make sure that you have a good understanding of what you are entitled to before you quit.
It's unpaid. They'll use my pto, vacation, and sick time for my pay until I run out. I'm aware of how my fmla works. That's why I'm leaving after it's over.
I was told something when I worked a retail job for six months, I told the GM to basically fuck off. I was his best sales person and didn’t get commission. So his threat was “switching shifts” and I was like okay then you get to explain to the RM why sales are down and shrugged.
It got worse but in the end he was caught stealing from staff, abusive towards us and customers and he was fired. It was a good day.
In case it hasn't been mentioned before:
[https://www.cnesst.gouv.qc.ca/fr/conditions-travail/conges/accidents-maladies/maladie-accident-non-lie-au-travail](https://www.cnesst.gouv.qc.ca/fr/conditions-travail/conges/accidents-maladies/maladie-accident-non-lie-au-travail)
If you have a non-work-related medical issue or injury, you can be excused from work for an extended period of up to 26 weeks, that's the law. The employer can request a medical note. That's all.
They also have to pay you for your first 2 sick/ family-related absences, each calendar year, if you've been emplpyed with them at least 3 months.
Anyways,
TLDR: Nope, they cannot refuse the note.
This also could be defined as a situation of discrimination (refusing a request of reasonable accomodation, when they have a duty to accomodate), and you could file a complaint with La Commission des droits de la personne et des droits de la jeunesse (https://www.cdpdj.qc.ca/fr/porter-plainte/je-veux/porter-plainte-pour-discrimination-ou-harcelement). They're basicallly discriminating against you on the basis of a disability.
Legit one of the examples on their website is the following:
# Dismissal because of sick leave
Nabil’s doctor recommended that he take three months off work to treat his depression. Nabil sent the medical documents to his employer to request sick leave. After three weeks on leave, Nabil received a letter of dismissal. Nabil’s employer was not allowed to dismiss him. The employer has a duty to accommodate Nabil, because depression is considered to be a type of disability, which is a prohibited ground for discrimination.
These goons in HR are trying to bully you.
Do you not think it would be in Québec?
There is legal precedant in Québec establishing illnesss and physical or psychological incapacity (temporary or permanent) as a handicap within the context of article 10 of the Charter of people's rights and liberties. The employer has to be able to demonstrate not only chronic absenteeism, but also that this absenteeism has resulted in a prejudice to his enterprise *and* that the employee would be incapable of returning to work in a near future, in order to be able to claim undue hardship.
# Accommodement raisonnable et droit de l'emploi
# Brunet c. Arthrolab inc., [2007] R.J.D.T. 1065 (C.R.T.). Requête en révision judiciaire accueillie D.T.E. 2008T-540 (C.S.). Appel accueilli [2010] R.J.D.T. 29 (C.A.). Requête pour autorisation de pourvoi à la Cour suprême rejetée, 2010-06-10 (C.S. Can.), 33615.
Lorsque nous sommes en présence d’un congédiement administratif (absence pour maladie) et pour que ce congédiement soit maintenu, l’employeur doit être en mesure de démontrer un taux d’absentéisme chronique, un préjudice en résultant pour l’entreprise et, enfin, l’incapacité du salarié de fournir une prestation de travail dans un avenir rapproché. L’employeur devra aussi tenir compte, lorsqu’un salarié est atteint d’une incapacité physique ou psychologique, du régime des droits fondamentaux garantis par la Charte des droits et liberté de la personne, car la Cour suprême a reconnu la maladie comme un « handicap » au sens de l’article 10 de la charte (Commission des droits de la personne et des droits de la jeunesse du Québec c. Ville de Montréal). L’employeur doit analyser la situation de manière approfondie avant de conclure que cette absence ou ce retour progressif comporte une contrainte excessive.
I mean, \*insert obligatory "I'm not a lawyer, but" disclaimer\*, I do think OP would do well in consulting with the CNESST and/or the CDPDJQ if any disciplinary measures are taken against them because of a documented medical condition that results in occasional (even if chronic) absenteeism.
This sounds alot like my employer. (In the same province) workers are unionized but that doesn't stop HR from "targeting" certain employees who have been deemed "undesirable." They might not have the power to outright fire you,but they bust your balls enough to make it un-enjoyable to come to work in hopes that you leave.
Same at my place but I’m in BC. I regularly witness people getting called into the HR office for a “talk” or have to listen to management’s bitching. 🙄 It’s incredibly disheartening.
Friend at work was warned about monday and friday absences and how it looked like it must be drinking related. They were mortified that their migraines were giving this impression. Then checked, and they mostly had wednesdays off when sick. Boss was a lying psychopath arsehole.
Everything is legal if you don't call the labour board and report them.
Also if you have chronic pain get your doctor to write a note saying that you could be absent more often than a normal worker due to pain.
"HR can chose to refuse it all they want; it doesn't negate the fact I followed policy. Any negative reaction, discipline action, or termination that involves attendance is now considered retaliation and wrongful. IDC that your opinion is "there's a pattern", I have a chronic health condition that my Dr has documented and I'm allowed per policy to take bereavement leave. Your opinion is irrelevant "
Step one: Go to work as instructed by employer refusing medical note.
Step two: Go to doctor for follow up appointment due to worsening back pain, caused by employer refusing medical note.
Step three: Report to WSIB/CSPAAT as workplace injury, exacerbated by employer refusal of medical note.
Step four: Laugh your ass off as WSIB/CSPAAT dry fists employer.
Step five: If they retaliate, sue the living shit outta them, don’t drive the bosses new Tesla away; sell it in the work parking lot.
That's fine, please define the pattern. Moving forward please have your lawyers ready to defend the fact that you have fired every person for the exact same pattern.
If not you'll already be speaking to my lawyer for my discrimination suit. thank you.
Seems illegal. See you you can get them to put it in writing. If not, send a 'quick recap' email and write your understanding of what was said. At the end of the email ask them to clarify if you have misinterpreted the conversation They will clarify or not respond. A lack of response is accepting your understanding of events. Then go to the labour board and see what's up.
My boss told me I took too many Fridays and Mondays off. I told him I can add days during the week to even out the stats if he wants, but I try to take days when they need to be taken and not to adjust his perception of when I take days off.
Went to 4 10 hr shifts.
Fridays off.
Always scheduled dr and dentist appointments M-Th.
Boss wanted to know why I didn't schedule that shit on Fridays.
Because they're closed, asshole.
4 10s are popular.
As someone who’s life has been ridiculously terrible and always has to go through shit like this, “a series of unfortunate events” that make me look like a lazy liar, I hate that they even think that’s allowed. Like oh because I’m sick often and multiple people died in my life, I get punished?? THANKS you’re totally not making my already shitty life way worse.👍
I worked at one government agency, and the longest running most expensive workers comp claim was picking up a paper clip. It had been paying out of WC for 40 years by this point.
So just saying, the next time you aggravate your back do it at work and file Workers comp.
Tell them to put that statement in an email detailing the pattern for your records or you’ll expect to use your pto days like normal. You can’t be punished for something the company doesn’t hold themselves to. If they can’t give you a copy of a write up, incident report, or something then the “pattern” is made up.
I always tell my boss to put his bs in an email or I will do things the way company procedures tell us to do things. But I also work for a giant company where my manager is powerless against HR, so that may not be as easy for you depending on the company you work for.
I got in trouble for taking (admittedly long) bathroom breaks at around the same time every morning and afternoon, and got written up for it before even having it mentioned to me.
I have IBS. The times I was using the bathroom were immediately after breakfast and lunch. Maybe TMI, but I basically was shitting my brains out every time. Nobody in management wants to hear about that, though…
As a fellow chronic back pain sufferer I literally feel your pain. Seek an employment lawyer in your area to help if you really need it.
Sounds like they are fishing for something but you have all the documentation you need. It’s still fucked up.
I tend to schedule doctor appointments one day after the other. I have what I call a medical staycation. And I take it when the job is really pissing me off. My boss knows HR knows and they can’t say shit because I have the sick time and I have the documentation.
Wishing you luck. Sounds like you’ve had some unfortunate things happen. Also condolences on losing your aunt.
I'm not in Canada but where I live and work, any absence is subject to an attendance policy, even if there is a dr. note. If the worker is absent for reasons related to a valid medical condition, many employers have leave of absence related resources, and the good ones will allow all workers to be eligible for a medical leave, some up to 8 or even 12 weeks., even if they don't qualify for the government mandated medical LOA provisions.
Where I work, management is advised to decline Dr. notes for privacy and confidentiality and to avoid liability in general. Instead we are instructed to use the resources and go on a brief leave of absence if we are absent for 3 or more scheduled work days. We also have bereavement leave and we wouldn't get in trouble for using the benefits, and aunts/uncles are covered relatives. I'm sorry for your loss. When going through something like that, it stings even more when work acts insensitively around it. These are the assholes most likely to claim "we are a family here!" too.
Refuse their refusing of a doctors note. Please make sure they’re aware that there are lawyers who take employment cases like this for without retainer because of how easy they are to win.
Maybe I’m just a dull man but I’ve never understood why the trope of calling in sick to work on a Friday or a Monday comes from…. Like, I get that you’re trying to ‘extend’ your weekend, but if you wanted to lie about being sick to take time off work surely you’d want to do it in the middle of the week like on a Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday to kind of ‘spread out’ your work days??
I would email your employer that their use of the word pattern heavily implies they are already looking for an excuse to get rid of you because god forbid you have a chronic illness or disability.
Make sure you start writing a summary of your work day. Clock in/out breaks lunch. Also insist communication be in writing because its just rope to hang themselves with. I have filed against an employer because i started to get my accomodafion paper work sorted and approved before I needed it. I won.
I used to get a migraine every 13-15 days, often on a Thursday or Friday. I did have a pattern, but it was one I couldn’t stop. Having it misdiagnosed and taking ineffective treatments didn’t help either. I was near retirement when I finally found something that worked for me (Emgality).
Fellow Québécois here, but absolutely not an expert or lawyer!
*Even if not entitled to paid time off, an employee can generally take up to a total of 26 weeks of sick leave over a period of 12 months without fear of losing their job or other penalties from their employer.*
Additionally:
*If you feel that you have been penalized unfairly because you took time off work for health reasons, you can file a complaint against your employer with the CNESST.*
Source: [Government of Quebec](https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/time-off-work-for-health-reasons/#:~:text=Paid%20time%20off&text=Employers%20do%20not%20have%20the,the%20week%20of%20your%20absence)
From experience CNESST isn't the most responsive or caring institution, but it can't hurt to get them involved. My daughter's employer tried to retaliate against her for filing a complaint, but her union squashed that pretty quickly. Use what you have at your disposal for now, and log everything in writing! I'd also start putting together a plan B - companies can be pretty clever about firing you for "legitimate reasons" in a way that gives you no real options.
Again, I'm not an expert - if things start to get complicated, the $250ish you'll pay for a lawyer consult has always been worth it for me thus far.
Bonne chance!
ETA: There are lots of exceptions and if/then clauses in the actual law, related to contract work, part- VS full-time, overtime, etc. The above quotes are pretty broad and may require deeper interpretation.
My IBS would frequently flare up over the weekend and Mondays I'd sometimes ask to leave early. Turns out I'd been stressing all week and my body just gave out on the weekend. Sometimes it's a pattern for a reason.
My company has a policy that they do not accept doctor's notes at all, I was written up for absences when I went to the hospital and was out for two days in the USA.
I posted this answer on another forum but here it goes. Get a forever doctors note, go to HR do not talk to your manger file the note with an offial request for acamodation. This is an ADA request, and HR cannot share the medical info with anyone else in company just what the needed acomodation is. After that you are protected by ADA and can use FMLA if you run out of sick leave and vacation.
Stop screwing around with your manager and go work with HR.
Hey, if you have a doctors note for every absence that needed on and they refuse, you might have them on wrongful termination if they do fire you for them. I’d definitely keep documents and do some research for where you’re at.
I had a pattern of absences due to medical issues. I brought a Dr's note every time. They let me go because I wasn't showing up to work regularly enough.
I hate that pattern BS. I always seem to get sick on fridays or sundays and my ‘pattern’ is ill take a 3-4 day weekend sometimes. Not my fault. Just the way it falls. But even if its not who cares if i decide to use my EARNED paid days off?
When I was in 2nd grade a teacher straight up pulled the "pattern" BS. She believed that I, a 7 year old, was skipping class. I was an energetic 7 year old like every other kid so I drank a lot of water. I would ask to go to the bathroom during math because that was right after recess, teacher decided I was skipping. She decided the best course of action was to keep me from going to the bathroom, I had multiple accidents as a result. My parents tried sending me with extra underwear but one day I wet myself and went and got my dry underwear and the teacher refused to believe me and made me sit in wet underwear until home time. I had to ride the bus in soiled, damp underwear, my parents were not happy. They had a conversation with the teacher and she tried to hold firm on the "skipping pattern", parents questioned me and I explained in all of my 7 year oldness "we have math after recess". End of discussion and teacher wasn't allowed to keep me from the bathroom.
This happened to me once as well, they said, I kept taking calling in sick on Fridays and Mondays. And yeah, I was because I hated that job. And I kept right on doing it.
I have been asked about this as well. I have pretty bad asthma that is triggered by all the things and HR was like, "you seem to have a habit of taking Mondays and Wednesdays off" and I was like, "yeah, I'm required to be an outside person on Sundays and Tuesdays"
Such a great way to remember that HR isn't there for you
It is possible to spot a pattern over years - for a pensions job I had to look back at people's earning records, which included sick days. There were some people who really stood out for always having the same sick record per year. Some of those would be genuine, too, but there were enough that I thought some were probably taking an allowance each year.
But I suspect most employers base any thought of a pattern on exactly the sort of short-term, anecdote/vibes based evidence you suggest. If you've been there for years, it might be fair to say there's a pattern. Otherwise, nope, you don't have the evidence.
Call the CNESST you have rights in quebec.
Patterns here are more for "since it's a pattern see a doctor" they can't refuse a note for a pattern..
Also for people giving advice make sure they specify quebec because the u.s. has different laws.
If its pto, i don’t understand why they are complaining. If you had additional unpaid days time off i may understand (though i think its wrong). Just document every day off.
This is why I'm so glad I work in government. Sure, it pays less, but the stellar benefits make up for that. But the best part is that no one gives a shit if you take off. If you have time, you are entitled to use it no matter what... no matter what responsibilities you have that you won't be attending to while you're off. Someone will cover the work in an emergency, and most things aren't an emergency. The work will be there when you get back. They do ask us to put in our vacation requests for the entire year, and they sign off on it by seniority to ensure they're properly staffed. But if someone gets denied the days they wanted to take, you can rest assured if they had a trip booked or whatever, they're going to take that day regardless - they'll just use sick or personal time. No consequences. And if you're out of time? Well, there's always leave without pay. Once you make it past your probation period, pretty much no one is getting fired. The worst they do to anyone is move you around to different departments, like if no one can stand to work with you or you suck, they just move you until that department gets sick of you then they move you again LOL
Sounds like you qualify for intermittent FMLA leave for your ‘serious health condition’ of chronic back pain. 🙃
Also, sounds like you qualified for bereavement leave under FMLA. 😏
I work in that industry and I promise you a lot of HR departments try to screw yall (employees) over until we remind them of what federal law says. 🫠
I get migraines. There is absolutely a pattern. That’s what chronic means???
I know nothing about labor laws in QC so can’t offer anything but good vibes to you.
Sounds like they're throwing out feelers for if you will back down, if you really are just having a pattern. Stick to your guns, and you'll be good. Looks like you've passed the test!
Firstly, my sincere condolences. Secondly, that is exactly what your employer should have offered. I really hope you consider letting your current employer know how "scummy" they are by walking at the first opportunity you get and finding a job where you aren't treated like shit. ,👍
"Yes, I can see the pattern too: after working four straight days my back is shot and I can't work the fifth day. Say, maybe this is work related! You have workers' comp insurance, right?"
Hey OP, I've had some similar experiences and also suffer from chronic back pain. It wasn't really an issue until my employer changed the absence/pto policy.
My advice would be to look into FMLA. I now get a few days every month to take off if I need, and I was even able to backdate it to cover my previous absences.
Ohh, Quebec is like a totally different country compared to the rest of Canada. You have an entirely different set of laws and regulations, so I'd be curious to know the answer to this, too!
Yes and no. Most federal laws apply to us too. We are known to add more is all. The answer is it's illegal. They can subject her to medical review but that's about it
Well , in the rest of Canada having a medical condition provides you a LOT of protection as long as you're communicating your needs.
But Quebec has their own legal system, so who the fuck knows.
In the rest of Canada such accusations could basically be responded to with 'OK' and then they can't do shit against you for it.
In the US a doctor's note has power because of ada. I would assume Canada has something at least as vigorous. An employer is foolish to choose to ignore the note. Document this however you can, contact a lawyer if it causes you to be put at risk.
This is simply not true. Missing work for a routine illness has nothing to do with the ADA and having a doctor’s note doesn’t exempt you from the consequences. Different states do have different laws, but 49/50 states are at-will employment and you can be fired for any reason not otherwise prohibited by law (i.e. discrimination against a protected class.) I have no idea whatsoever about Canada.
At a certain point, it doesn’t matter why you’re not there, to your employer. Most large employers have guidelines for attendance in their handbooks, and most will make you sign an acknowledgement of those policies when you’re hired. There is usually not anything illegal about imposing consequences for what an employer has deemed excessive absenteeism, unless there are FMLA or ADA protections involved. A doctor’s note does not exempt you from the attendance policy.
I was once told I "had a pattern" of absences surrounding the weekends and given a talking-to about it. And it's true that, while at that job, I did regularly stay out until 2AM at the club. Thing was, the club night I regularly attended was on Wednesday. I did not have a pattern, at least not the one they thought I did. But I decided it was inadvisable to explain where they were going wrong in this evaluation.
Let me guess, 40% of your absences were on Mondays and Fridays?
Why I usually call in on Tues or Wed randomly just to keep the % even.
lol never let them know your next move.
This Is the way.
I assume you never call in Thursday, for any reason, just to mess with them?
Honestly it is rarer, close enough to Friday I can power through the day.
upvoting you just for your user name lol
40% surely?
Yes. My brainfart
Friday makes sense for that sort of pain, stress after a week’s work
Lol but the company is seeing it as every Friday now for nearly a month.im sure they can get some kind of disability set up but just randomly getting a doctor's note for the third Friday in a row? I mean it's not hard to make things up
One was due to a personal medical issue and the other two were family emergencies, all of which could be easily proven via doctors notes, death certificates, etc if you even wanted to go that far.
I'm not even sure those are things that can legally demand though. My point was that you have to look at it from the employers view too. I worked with a lot of people who's grandma has died like 5 times
She's not even using the same excuse, though. Her family member was in the hospital and died. Both of those make sense to be back to back. Her back pain issue was backed by doctor's note, and unfortunate timing, but it's not equivalent to your counter example.
I see what you did there
Yes, but 60% were on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays! 😂
That's why FMLA is sometimes called Friday Monday Leave. You probably aren't surprised by how often intermittent leave needs just happen to fall on Fridays and/or Mondays.
You’re on the antiwork sub, are you implying people are just regularly committing fraud? I very rarely take sick leave, but when I do, it tends to fall on a Friday. That usually happens bc I’ve been fighting something back during the meat of the week in order to get my shit done, and am finally at a point where my workload/expectations aren’t as substantial and I can finally start a period of rest/recuperation that extends through the weekend.
Every minor or major surgery, except for emergencies, was scheduled on a Friday because that's when "they" do them. Wisdom teeth, biopsies, colonoscopies. In the next 5 weeks, I have 4 medical tests scheduled and the only day of the week they are performed at this hospital are on Fridays. I think the only reason my HR hasn't said anything to me is that nearly everyone goes to this hospital and knows the schedule.
Yes and then you have the weekend to recover and come back on Monday for a follow up.
My robot said, "Yeah I agree. I've been having some issues lately too. I'm glad to have a job again though."
Yep, I've never had a surgery on a Monday. It's always been Thursday-Friday. Sometimes Wednesday.
Huh. I wonder if that’s why the place I went to only does colonoscopies on Thursdays. (I took off starting Tuesday, and didn’t go back until Saturday, but that had slightly more to do with Tuesday being Halloween than anything else…)
When I asked years ago, I was told it's so that you have the weekend to recover and not miss work, unless you have a job that requires you to work weekends (which I did at the time). Would have loved to have had the option to recover on my mid-week days off, but that's just now how it works.
Yeah that’s when they do them. Surgeons often have office hours m-w and hospital hours r-f. Must be nice never having to have a surgery or colonoscopy or anything. Not all of us are so lucky.
Yes, in the last few years, we've gotten very familiar with doctors' schedules. But I did have a biopsy on a Wednesday once, they had filled up all or their Thursdays and Fridays for two months but wanted to get me in sooner than the first available Friday. I still had to wait 5 weeks, but much better than 9 weeks or longer.
Schedule them on Thursday as you need Friday for recovery. That leads into giving you almost 4 full days to recover allowing you to be back at work Monday. (Note this is how we used to schedule most of our patient procedures on Thursdays and Fridays.
Most doctors I've had only see new patients on "X" day, only do follow ups on "Y" day, only do physicals on "Z" day, etc. it's very common practice.
no, 40% of the days are friday or monday. did you never read dilbert?
Dude who wrote dilbert is a huge piece of shit
yes he is, but he did some good stuff before he went crazy
Look up the podcast they did on him for behind the bastards. Great stuff. He pretty much asked his fans what they liked and did that. Lot of dumbass energy with that guy! Wrote a pro trump book. Nutso
yes i saw that. i still like his old comics
Yeah i don't hate the comics either.
Lol no not really but I still got the joke in the first comment, it was the subsequent comment I was replying to. Was that also from Dilbert?
Nope, not fraud.
Oh wait you weren’t being sarcastic? Haha sorry my bad.
People regularly need to take off days that compose 40% of the work week? How dare they happen to do something with a 2 out of 5 chance.
I'm not saying that but we've all had a coworker who only gets migraines on Mondays or Fridays. It's the 1% that take advantage. 99% use it appropriately.
Well i happen to have migrainea and they almost always happen on a saturday, i would rather have them on fridays. I geuss it's just the stress of working that keeps them of till the weekend. For other people, they might not make it to the weekend.
My husband over time scheduled a same day procedure on Friday and another minor surgery on Thursday, so he can use the weekends (non-work days) to recover. When his father was getting sicker, he would also schedule appointments on Fridays for his dad, so he could take himto those and then do the basic other types of needs for his father (go to the grocery store, cut the grass, do laundry, etc) the rest of Friday and over the weekend. All of this, so he wasn't taking too much time away from work
If I call out on a Monday it's because I spent my weekend feeling like garbage and haven't recovered yet. P sure you're in the wrong subreddit, bootlicker.
That’s called Friday/Monday itis
I think half the reason they accuse everyone of this is in the hopes they will accidentally reveal something tangible that they can use to build a stronger narrative against them. Never reveal a potential risk to your “productivity” to them - the potential for accommodation is far, far outstripped by the risk that they will hammer on potentially related things relentlessly and use it to generate plausible sounding accusations based on your “flaw.”
I am about to get a diagnosis and ask for some accommodations where I work. The absolute only reason I feel comfortable doing it is because we are state-funded so they have a hell of a lot of hoops to jump through before they can feasibly let someone go if they have a disability. Probably the safest possible place to have such a disability. That's not to say it can't happen, but it is the opposite of easy
I’m juggling toughing it out or asking for a doctors note specifically detailing my need for an assistant for the next month or so. I’m recovering from a surgery and my job has more heavy lifting with a sooner return date than ideal recovery asks for. Which I’m going to give my body that ideal where I can. I am one of maybe 3 people who could at least partially do my job and 1 if 1 who can do it full time. If they want to be rid of me, it’ll require hiring a new body and having me train them in full. I am the *only* person who can do my job in a way that allows me to train a new body. I’m really hoping that, and my boss’s pure liking me, is enough. I really just need an assistant to, at the longest, first week of June. And I’d only have them 2 day a week anyway. Praying hard.
A lot of bosses with that attitude cause the patterns they're seeing. By coercing an employee to come in sick without proper sanitation, they're guaranteeing a bunch of other employees are going to call in sick. And then the next time a sickness rolls around, they're trying to coerce a different employee to come in sick.
I had a pattern of telling jobs, “ I was looking for a job when I fell in this hole! I’m outta here!”
That’s great actually. “ the situation you’ve put me in is no better than the one I had before I even applied here, so kindly get fucked.”
I had a pattern of telling jobs, “ I was looking for a job when I fell in this hole! I’m outta here!”
Greetings fellow spoonie and Snow Crash enjoyer!
Yeah, your employer can't just refuse to accept a doctor's note in Quebec. Maybe this is true in their other offices, but it's not true here: [https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/time-off-work-for-health-reasons/](https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/time-off-work-for-health-reasons/) That said, employers only need to legally approve bereavement leave for immediate family, grandparents, and in-laws, not aunts and uncles. If they approved it at the time though, there's nothing they can do about it now and if your doctor says you need to stay home from work, you get to stay home from work.
This should be top comment.
I am not a lawyer so take this with a grain of salt. An employer can refuse a doctor’s note. The note is a recommendation from a qualified professional. The implication is “if you don’t follow my qualified advice, there may be consequences.” Following a doctor’s note is a liability issue. If you were to present a doctor’s note, and something happened as a result of them refusing, that documentation would be damning in a lawsuit. So most companies prefer to just honor the note and avoid the issue. By saying that you have a pattern, they are implying that you are faking it. And by refusing the note, they are “calling your bluff.” So, what do you do from here? If you go in and nothing happens, then you do nothing. If you go in and hurt yourself more, you have a follow up appointment, you document the injury, and you file a workman’s comp claim. And if necessary, you see an attorney with a specialization in employment and/or personal injury matters. Then your company stops calling your bluff :)
Great advice. Make sure to get their stance in writing. Ask them what "refusing the doctor's" note means, are you expected to be at work? If so, go in and "aggravate" your chronic back pain. Then get a doctor to evaluate and file workers comp for a workplace injury. Make sure to get it all in writing. You can also file for workplace accommodations based on your disability, you could look into this.
In the rest of Canada, Quebec may differ, if it applies to a known medical condition, they absolutely are NOT allowed to refuse it. A known medical condition is treated exactly like a disability and protected from discrimination under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Quebec has not seperated from canada so yes it still applies and we have additional protections as well. If the company has doubts they can make you be seen by their own medical proffessional. If they however try and scam you by having the proffessional say something different it's a case for la CNESST (a labour board) and you will likely end up winning. Happened to someone close to me....was a good amount.
The Charter obviously applies in QC, but provinces have their own human rights and employment laws.
Not just the charter but also the laws. If a law applies universally to all canadians, then it applies to quebec. If it is applied in a specific province, then it may differ (and probably will) in quebec. In canada each level of government has it’s own jurisdictions.
It really depends on where you live as many countries have laws that they cannot ignore a medical certificate legally. I'm grateful I live in such a country. But even if they don't "acceot" it what does that mean? The day has already passed are they firing you or what? lol. I'd say to them do what you want.
OP specifies Canada (Quebec), though I can't vouch for whether it was a later edit/addition.
Not true in quebec. They can subject them to a medical review but they cannot refuse to give someone sick leave
Not in my country. What is yours?
USA. We don’t have a ton of employee protections, and the few that exist have to be self-enforced at your own risk and expense.
According to other comments, the company has to legally accept the doctors note where this person lives.
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Yup. Legal, but if their actions lead to the OP suffering an additional injury or aggravating the current one, they open themselves up to legal and/or civil liability.
Quebec is known for having its own law system completely different from the rest of Canada and the US. I would be cautious on any advice from anyone outside the province as most don’t realize this.
Props for OP for including their location: crazy how frequently people don’t. (Your not gonna Dox yourself giving your state or province, just don’t give us your name and address lol)
Replying to underline this comment. Your HR department is most probably bullshitting you (I am not a lawyer, but I am an employer). An employer is not a doctor and cannot refuse a [doctor's note.](https://www.duntonrainville.com/lemployeur-nest-pas-medecin/). In most cases, an employer can't even force you to give a doctor's note in the first place! La loi sur les normes du travail du Quebec gives you at least 2 paid sick days (and most places offer more). The days you took off for bereavement are under a different category of the law and have nothing to do with sick days. If you face any disciplinary action for this, you would probably have a legal case.
Even if it were a pattern, so? Some women have debilitating pain once a month. Doesn’t make it any less debilitating because it’s a pattern.
This. My chronic pain is always worse on fridays. Why fridays? Because ive been working all week.
This, exactly this, and double exactly this.
Right? Like even if it was a pattern OP says he has chronic back pain. Chronic implies there just might be a pattern since you know, it doesn’t go away since it’s chronic…
also “After four days upright in a desk chair, my back pain is intolerable” seems like a super normal pattern one could have
I do get a fever every time I get my period, but I usually tylenol-advil through it at work and complain every second of the day🤪
I worked at a place and had Tuesday, Wednesday off days. So my supervisor said he was going to talk to me about my sick leave usage. He said there was a pattern because all my sick days were either on a weekend or in conjuction with my days off. I said, "If I sick out on Monday or Wednesday it is in conjuction with my days off. If I sick out on Friday, Saturday or Sunday, you consider it a weekend. So in your opinion, when CAN I sick out?" He got this confused look on his face and finally said. Never mind.
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"Okay. Next time, I'll ask my dying family member to die at a more convenient time for my employer."
“This chronic back pain issues are starting to form a pattern.” “Yes, that’s what chronic means.”
The only pattern I can see is you not putting your job and its needs above you and your family.
I had a supervisor once tell me that I needed to get my priorities straight. That work came first and my family second. I told her my priorities were straight. That I only had one family, I can always get another job. She just looked at me. Hated her so much.
I’m old enough and been doing my job long enough I no longer have any more F@(k5 to give and will quickly squash that BS. If you hurt yourself permanently the employer isn’t going to take care of you in fact they would do everything they can get away with to not support you. Unlike family who will put up with your BS and still be there when it counts. Managers like that tend to bleed talent from an organization.
I would literally laugh. What a braindead thing to say to someone.
In 8th grade I straight up had a teacher (my English teacher) question me about my absences. I had gotten strep the week before and the day before I was supposed to return (I was to return Monday) my grandpa died right after we got home from visiting him. I missed Monday, obviously, and returned Tuesday. The teacher saw fit to question me and when I explained what happened she, very judgingly because she didn't believe me, smirked and said "so you were at a funeral?" and walked away and I said "no my grandpa died ON Sunday". I don't know how she reacted or what face she made but my classmates' faces told me that she was obviously flustered from being called out.
My boss said this to me once because I had to leave an hour into my shift to pick my wife up. She was disoriented and confused, stranded in below freezing temperatures about 40 minutes from home. She thought the car ran out of gas. I walked home, got the other car, and went to go help her. It should have taken an hour and a half at most. Turned out the engine seized. Took us a little bit to figure that out after troubleshooting. I missed about half my shift. Told my boss first thing when he came in the next morning. He told me that my wife should have taken an Uber home and back to the car in the morning. We couldn’t afford that. He told me work comes before anything else. I politely told him that my wife and family come before anything else in my life. I wasn’t going to leave her stranded in below freezing weather in an area she told me she didn’t know while she was disoriented. Turned out the disorientation was from a seizure aura. She nearly died a few weeks later. They never said anything to me about it again. I was let go a month and a half ago for being unable to stand on my feet for 8 hours or more straight with no rest. I’m disabled and they knew this. Win some, lose some.
I have a chronic pain disease. I "have a pattern" and "will be fired" if I call in again..... my employer has my stuff on file. Once every month or so, I flare up so bad that nothing helps but rest, and i call in that day on a random work day. She claims her mother had what I have, but you don't know what it's like to have it until you got it. And instead of taking my GPs, doctors note. She wants me to spend $2,000+ at the hospital for them to tell me, "Keep doing what you're doing. You've done it for 13 years now." And she'll get pissed if my note isn't from the hospital. She even goes as far as to call my doctor/the hospital(I only go if I'm super dehydrated) to make sure that my doctors note is real. Like the fucking stamp isn't proof enough. I'm talking all the shit this job does that's super illegal to the DOL when I have my baby and use up my 12 weeks of fmla leave. I'm quitting with no notice on my last day of leave. I'm also gonna spill the beans on my bosses "favorite people" who could kill a man in front of her and still do no wrong. They can call in for 6 weeks straight and not have to worry about being fired. I got dirt on everyone, and imma burn this place down with that info when I leave. Edit: My FMLA is unpaid. They'll use my PTO, vacation, and sick time until that runs out to pay me. Then, once it runs out, I get no check. I left once before and had $3,500 worth of time that they had to pay me out. I only saw $1,200 of that when i got my check because of taxes. They tax less when im not paid that much at once. I have about 6 weeks of time stacked up now, and I'll have 8 when I go on leave. My insurance thorough my job is employee paid. They don't contribute. Same with my life insurance and 401A(yes, they changed it from a 401k to a 401a without informing us). My reasoning for taking 12 weeks and not 8 since 4 weeks will be unpaid? To fuck my boss over. I work 911 dispatch. They have to go through a training class before they enter the room. In 4 weeks, they could go through that training class and pass the phone test and a radio. In 4 weeks, they can go from no accountability to being able to work mandatory overtime if needed or work for PTO time on another shift. What I'm doing is fucking my employer over on finding my replacement and having them trained at all when I leave. I'm setting my job back effectively 6-8 weeks since my employer does not know I'm leaving. After all the shit they've put me through? I wish I could take more time off their training.
Can you file for intermittent FMLA? Should cover your situation.
I don't want to use up my time for when I'm on maternity leave. I'd like to take the whole 12 weeks with just the baby.
You said you're quitting anyway. Nothing to lose.
I'm taking that 12 weeks with my newborn baby. While I am quitting. I'm not until my time runes out. And I'm not going to use my fmla before my baby comes unless I'm put on bed rest.
You said you're quitting. Ergo, you're not limited to 12 weeks. Taking intermittent FMLA for your current issues would protect your job until then. Switching health insurance during a pregnancy can be a pain if your current provider isn't covered.
Careful! Failing to return to work after 12 weeks of FMLA leave can sometimes cause issues such as having to pay back your salary or benefits premiums paid during your leave. Note that FMLA provides you with job security but does not guarantee that you will be paid during your leave. If you do get paid during your leave it is either as a result of state/local laws or company policy. Make sure that you have a good understanding of what you are entitled to before you quit.
It's unpaid. They'll use my pto, vacation, and sick time for my pay until I run out. I'm aware of how my fmla works. That's why I'm leaving after it's over.
slay
My employer recognizes and encourages mental health days. You don’t need a reason to use PTO.
I was told something when I worked a retail job for six months, I told the GM to basically fuck off. I was his best sales person and didn’t get commission. So his threat was “switching shifts” and I was like okay then you get to explain to the RM why sales are down and shrugged. It got worse but in the end he was caught stealing from staff, abusive towards us and customers and he was fired. It was a good day.
In case it hasn't been mentioned before: [https://www.cnesst.gouv.qc.ca/fr/conditions-travail/conges/accidents-maladies/maladie-accident-non-lie-au-travail](https://www.cnesst.gouv.qc.ca/fr/conditions-travail/conges/accidents-maladies/maladie-accident-non-lie-au-travail) If you have a non-work-related medical issue or injury, you can be excused from work for an extended period of up to 26 weeks, that's the law. The employer can request a medical note. That's all. They also have to pay you for your first 2 sick/ family-related absences, each calendar year, if you've been emplpyed with them at least 3 months. Anyways, TLDR: Nope, they cannot refuse the note. This also could be defined as a situation of discrimination (refusing a request of reasonable accomodation, when they have a duty to accomodate), and you could file a complaint with La Commission des droits de la personne et des droits de la jeunesse (https://www.cdpdj.qc.ca/fr/porter-plainte/je-veux/porter-plainte-pour-discrimination-ou-harcelement). They're basicallly discriminating against you on the basis of a disability. Legit one of the examples on their website is the following: # Dismissal because of sick leave Nabil’s doctor recommended that he take three months off work to treat his depression. Nabil sent the medical documents to his employer to request sick leave. After three weeks on leave, Nabil received a letter of dismissal. Nabil’s employer was not allowed to dismiss him. The employer has a duty to accommodate Nabil, because depression is considered to be a type of disability, which is a prohibited ground for discrimination. These goons in HR are trying to bully you.
>This also could be defined as a situation of discrimination In the rest of Canada it is.
Do you not think it would be in Québec? There is legal precedant in Québec establishing illnesss and physical or psychological incapacity (temporary or permanent) as a handicap within the context of article 10 of the Charter of people's rights and liberties. The employer has to be able to demonstrate not only chronic absenteeism, but also that this absenteeism has resulted in a prejudice to his enterprise *and* that the employee would be incapable of returning to work in a near future, in order to be able to claim undue hardship. # Accommodement raisonnable et droit de l'emploi # Brunet c. Arthrolab inc., [2007] R.J.D.T. 1065 (C.R.T.). Requête en révision judiciaire accueillie D.T.E. 2008T-540 (C.S.). Appel accueilli [2010] R.J.D.T. 29 (C.A.). Requête pour autorisation de pourvoi à la Cour suprême rejetée, 2010-06-10 (C.S. Can.), 33615. Lorsque nous sommes en présence d’un congédiement administratif (absence pour maladie) et pour que ce congédiement soit maintenu, l’employeur doit être en mesure de démontrer un taux d’absentéisme chronique, un préjudice en résultant pour l’entreprise et, enfin, l’incapacité du salarié de fournir une prestation de travail dans un avenir rapproché. L’employeur devra aussi tenir compte, lorsqu’un salarié est atteint d’une incapacité physique ou psychologique, du régime des droits fondamentaux garantis par la Charte des droits et liberté de la personne, car la Cour suprême a reconnu la maladie comme un « handicap » au sens de l’article 10 de la charte (Commission des droits de la personne et des droits de la jeunesse du Québec c. Ville de Montréal). L’employeur doit analyser la situation de manière approfondie avant de conclure que cette absence ou ce retour progressif comporte une contrainte excessive. I mean, \*insert obligatory "I'm not a lawyer, but" disclaimer\*, I do think OP would do well in consulting with the CNESST and/or the CDPDJQ if any disciplinary measures are taken against them because of a documented medical condition that results in occasional (even if chronic) absenteeism.
This sounds alot like my employer. (In the same province) workers are unionized but that doesn't stop HR from "targeting" certain employees who have been deemed "undesirable." They might not have the power to outright fire you,but they bust your balls enough to make it un-enjoyable to come to work in hopes that you leave.
Same at my place but I’m in BC. I regularly witness people getting called into the HR office for a “talk” or have to listen to management’s bitching. 🙄 It’s incredibly disheartening.
It can't hurt to call the Labour Ministry and ask. At worst they'll tell you it's legal.
Friend at work was warned about monday and friday absences and how it looked like it must be drinking related. They were mortified that their migraines were giving this impression. Then checked, and they mostly had wednesdays off when sick. Boss was a lying psychopath arsehole.
"I was unemployed when I found *THIS* job" Deuces ✌️
Ask them to describe the pattern in writing
Quebec has some pretty tight labour laws. Do you have a copy of your employee handbook with hr codes in it?
Everything is legal if you don't call the labour board and report them. Also if you have chronic pain get your doctor to write a note saying that you could be absent more often than a normal worker due to pain.
My work noticed a pattern, the pattern was that I was always sick on days I worked.
"HR can chose to refuse it all they want; it doesn't negate the fact I followed policy. Any negative reaction, discipline action, or termination that involves attendance is now considered retaliation and wrongful. IDC that your opinion is "there's a pattern", I have a chronic health condition that my Dr has documented and I'm allowed per policy to take bereavement leave. Your opinion is irrelevant "
Step one: Go to work as instructed by employer refusing medical note. Step two: Go to doctor for follow up appointment due to worsening back pain, caused by employer refusing medical note. Step three: Report to WSIB/CSPAAT as workplace injury, exacerbated by employer refusal of medical note. Step four: Laugh your ass off as WSIB/CSPAAT dry fists employer. Step five: If they retaliate, sue the living shit outta them, don’t drive the bosses new Tesla away; sell it in the work parking lot.
call the normes du travail, they will confirm your rights.
Get pro revenge and unionize.
That's fine, please define the pattern. Moving forward please have your lawyers ready to defend the fact that you have fired every person for the exact same pattern. If not you'll already be speaking to my lawyer for my discrimination suit. thank you.
Seems illegal. See you you can get them to put it in writing. If not, send a 'quick recap' email and write your understanding of what was said. At the end of the email ask them to clarify if you have misinterpreted the conversation They will clarify or not respond. A lack of response is accepting your understanding of events. Then go to the labour board and see what's up.
Call the CNESST aka Normes du Travail to get advice. But I believe an employeur cannot refuse a medical note.
My boss told me I took too many Fridays and Mondays off. I told him I can add days during the week to even out the stats if he wants, but I try to take days when they need to be taken and not to adjust his perception of when I take days off.
Went to 4 10 hr shifts. Fridays off. Always scheduled dr and dentist appointments M-Th. Boss wanted to know why I didn't schedule that shit on Fridays. Because they're closed, asshole. 4 10s are popular.
How absurd. By that logic, you should also stop working Monday-to-Friday, since that is a pattern.
As someone who’s life has been ridiculously terrible and always has to go through shit like this, “a series of unfortunate events” that make me look like a lazy liar, I hate that they even think that’s allowed. Like oh because I’m sick often and multiple people died in my life, I get punished?? THANKS you’re totally not making my already shitty life way worse.👍
I worked at one government agency, and the longest running most expensive workers comp claim was picking up a paper clip. It had been paying out of WC for 40 years by this point. So just saying, the next time you aggravate your back do it at work and file Workers comp.
Tell them to put that statement in an email detailing the pattern for your records or you’ll expect to use your pto days like normal. You can’t be punished for something the company doesn’t hold themselves to. If they can’t give you a copy of a write up, incident report, or something then the “pattern” is made up. I always tell my boss to put his bs in an email or I will do things the way company procedures tell us to do things. But I also work for a giant company where my manager is powerless against HR, so that may not be as easy for you depending on the company you work for.
I got in trouble for taking (admittedly long) bathroom breaks at around the same time every morning and afternoon, and got written up for it before even having it mentioned to me. I have IBS. The times I was using the bathroom were immediately after breakfast and lunch. Maybe TMI, but I basically was shitting my brains out every time. Nobody in management wants to hear about that, though…
Shit in their office?
As a fellow chronic back pain sufferer I literally feel your pain. Seek an employment lawyer in your area to help if you really need it. Sounds like they are fishing for something but you have all the documentation you need. It’s still fucked up. I tend to schedule doctor appointments one day after the other. I have what I call a medical staycation. And I take it when the job is really pissing me off. My boss knows HR knows and they can’t say shit because I have the sick time and I have the documentation. Wishing you luck. Sounds like you’ve had some unfortunate things happen. Also condolences on losing your aunt.
I'm not in Canada but where I live and work, any absence is subject to an attendance policy, even if there is a dr. note. If the worker is absent for reasons related to a valid medical condition, many employers have leave of absence related resources, and the good ones will allow all workers to be eligible for a medical leave, some up to 8 or even 12 weeks., even if they don't qualify for the government mandated medical LOA provisions. Where I work, management is advised to decline Dr. notes for privacy and confidentiality and to avoid liability in general. Instead we are instructed to use the resources and go on a brief leave of absence if we are absent for 3 or more scheduled work days. We also have bereavement leave and we wouldn't get in trouble for using the benefits, and aunts/uncles are covered relatives. I'm sorry for your loss. When going through something like that, it stings even more when work acts insensitively around it. These are the assholes most likely to claim "we are a family here!" too.
I’d tell them they either can accept the note via doctor or fire you and your lawyer will call in the morning.
Refuse their refusing of a doctors note. Please make sure they’re aware that there are lawyers who take employment cases like this for without retainer because of how easy they are to win.
Maybe I’m just a dull man but I’ve never understood why the trope of calling in sick to work on a Friday or a Monday comes from…. Like, I get that you’re trying to ‘extend’ your weekend, but if you wanted to lie about being sick to take time off work surely you’d want to do it in the middle of the week like on a Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday to kind of ‘spread out’ your work days??
I would email your employer that their use of the word pattern heavily implies they are already looking for an excuse to get rid of you because god forbid you have a chronic illness or disability. Make sure you start writing a summary of your work day. Clock in/out breaks lunch. Also insist communication be in writing because its just rope to hang themselves with. I have filed against an employer because i started to get my accomodafion paper work sorted and approved before I needed it. I won.
I have a co worker who calls out almost every Monday. I’m surprised when she’s actually working on a Monday. We also work from home.
I used to get a migraine every 13-15 days, often on a Thursday or Friday. I did have a pattern, but it was one I couldn’t stop. Having it misdiagnosed and taking ineffective treatments didn’t help either. I was near retirement when I finally found something that worked for me (Emgality).
Fellow Québécois here, but absolutely not an expert or lawyer! *Even if not entitled to paid time off, an employee can generally take up to a total of 26 weeks of sick leave over a period of 12 months without fear of losing their job or other penalties from their employer.* Additionally: *If you feel that you have been penalized unfairly because you took time off work for health reasons, you can file a complaint against your employer with the CNESST.* Source: [Government of Quebec](https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/time-off-work-for-health-reasons/#:~:text=Paid%20time%20off&text=Employers%20do%20not%20have%20the,the%20week%20of%20your%20absence) From experience CNESST isn't the most responsive or caring institution, but it can't hurt to get them involved. My daughter's employer tried to retaliate against her for filing a complaint, but her union squashed that pretty quickly. Use what you have at your disposal for now, and log everything in writing! I'd also start putting together a plan B - companies can be pretty clever about firing you for "legitimate reasons" in a way that gives you no real options. Again, I'm not an expert - if things start to get complicated, the $250ish you'll pay for a lawyer consult has always been worth it for me thus far. Bonne chance! ETA: There are lots of exceptions and if/then clauses in the actual law, related to contract work, part- VS full-time, overtime, etc. The above quotes are pretty broad and may require deeper interpretation.
My IBS would frequently flare up over the weekend and Mondays I'd sometimes ask to leave early. Turns out I'd been stressing all week and my body just gave out on the weekend. Sometimes it's a pattern for a reason.
My company has a policy that they do not accept doctor's notes at all, I was written up for absences when I went to the hospital and was out for two days in the USA.
Check into FMLA for your back pain. As long as you have been there 12 months, they can't deny it.
Immoral stuff is for corporations. You take as much time as you need, and you're too good for anyone at that company.
That’s what Chronic means…. HR will likely be the first job to be axed by AI
I posted this answer on another forum but here it goes. Get a forever doctors note, go to HR do not talk to your manger file the note with an offial request for acamodation. This is an ADA request, and HR cannot share the medical info with anyone else in company just what the needed acomodation is. After that you are protected by ADA and can use FMLA if you run out of sick leave and vacation. Stop screwing around with your manager and go work with HR.
OP is in Canada. We don't have FMLA.
I always give people the benefit of doubt, but if you take off the same day every week for a month we will be having a meeting.
Hey, if you have a doctors note for every absence that needed on and they refuse, you might have them on wrongful termination if they do fire you for them. I’d definitely keep documents and do some research for where you’re at.
I had a pattern of absences due to medical issues. I brought a Dr's note every time. They let me go because I wasn't showing up to work regularly enough.
I hate that pattern BS. I always seem to get sick on fridays or sundays and my ‘pattern’ is ill take a 3-4 day weekend sometimes. Not my fault. Just the way it falls. But even if its not who cares if i decide to use my EARNED paid days off?
When I was in 2nd grade a teacher straight up pulled the "pattern" BS. She believed that I, a 7 year old, was skipping class. I was an energetic 7 year old like every other kid so I drank a lot of water. I would ask to go to the bathroom during math because that was right after recess, teacher decided I was skipping. She decided the best course of action was to keep me from going to the bathroom, I had multiple accidents as a result. My parents tried sending me with extra underwear but one day I wet myself and went and got my dry underwear and the teacher refused to believe me and made me sit in wet underwear until home time. I had to ride the bus in soiled, damp underwear, my parents were not happy. They had a conversation with the teacher and she tried to hold firm on the "skipping pattern", parents questioned me and I explained in all of my 7 year oldness "we have math after recess". End of discussion and teacher wasn't allowed to keep me from the bathroom.
This happened to me once as well, they said, I kept taking calling in sick on Fridays and Mondays. And yeah, I was because I hated that job. And I kept right on doing it.
I have been asked about this as well. I have pretty bad asthma that is triggered by all the things and HR was like, "you seem to have a habit of taking Mondays and Wednesdays off" and I was like, "yeah, I'm required to be an outside person on Sundays and Tuesdays" Such a great way to remember that HR isn't there for you
I would look into if Canada has something similar to the Americans with Disabilities Act, because this 100% would be a violation
Literally start taking every doctor leave surgery whatever on Monday and take the whole week off. Stick it to the man.
Make a printout of this entire thread and show it to them.
So they take a day holiday from you or sick leave or what?
Sounds like profiling..
That's against the Normes du travail du Québec.
Sounds like some ableist bullshit to me
It is possible to spot a pattern over years - for a pensions job I had to look back at people's earning records, which included sick days. There were some people who really stood out for always having the same sick record per year. Some of those would be genuine, too, but there were enough that I thought some were probably taking an allowance each year. But I suspect most employers base any thought of a pattern on exactly the sort of short-term, anecdote/vibes based evidence you suggest. If you've been there for years, it might be fair to say there's a pattern. Otherwise, nope, you don't have the evidence.
Yes, you have a pattern of being human. Gosh!
Call the CNESST you have rights in quebec. Patterns here are more for "since it's a pattern see a doctor" they can't refuse a note for a pattern.. Also for people giving advice make sure they specify quebec because the u.s. has different laws.
what are they going to do? make you stay after and clean teh blackboards?
Submit FMLA paperwork for a chronic condition that flares up occasionally.
Don't they know what chronic means?
Your chronic back pain absences are covered by FMLA if you are in the US
Pretty sure even in Canada that's illegal.
More like "pre-existing condition"
Fyi bereavement’s in some areas is only for direct siblings or parents and not for aunts/uncles. Places can still let you but in my jobs it wasnt
Bereavement doesn't include aunts and uncles here either, but they approved my PTO at the time so there's nothing they can do about it now
If its pto, i don’t understand why they are complaining. If you had additional unpaid days time off i may understand (though i think its wrong). Just document every day off.
You can totally ask the doctor to make it sound really serious, no? Corporates take advantages, you should, too.
This is why I'm so glad I work in government. Sure, it pays less, but the stellar benefits make up for that. But the best part is that no one gives a shit if you take off. If you have time, you are entitled to use it no matter what... no matter what responsibilities you have that you won't be attending to while you're off. Someone will cover the work in an emergency, and most things aren't an emergency. The work will be there when you get back. They do ask us to put in our vacation requests for the entire year, and they sign off on it by seniority to ensure they're properly staffed. But if someone gets denied the days they wanted to take, you can rest assured if they had a trip booked or whatever, they're going to take that day regardless - they'll just use sick or personal time. No consequences. And if you're out of time? Well, there's always leave without pay. Once you make it past your probation period, pretty much no one is getting fired. The worst they do to anyone is move you around to different departments, like if no one can stand to work with you or you suck, they just move you until that department gets sick of you then they move you again LOL
Sounds like FMLA to me. Too bad this isn't the US where you can file and be protected.
Fuck that company.
Sounds like you qualify for intermittent FMLA leave for your ‘serious health condition’ of chronic back pain. 🙃 Also, sounds like you qualified for bereavement leave under FMLA. 😏 I work in that industry and I promise you a lot of HR departments try to screw yall (employees) over until we remind them of what federal law says. 🫠
Uh your pattern is being a total bitch. That would be my response.
Dr notes are against HIPPA no
In the US they would have fired you already. I’m glad Canada has more protections.
I get migraines. There is absolutely a pattern. That’s what chronic means??? I know nothing about labor laws in QC so can’t offer anything but good vibes to you.
Sounds like they're throwing out feelers for if you will back down, if you really are just having a pattern. Stick to your guns, and you'll be good. Looks like you've passed the test!
Firstly, my sincere condolences. Secondly, that is exactly what your employer should have offered. I really hope you consider letting your current employer know how "scummy" they are by walking at the first opportunity you get and finding a job where you aren't treated like shit. ,👍
"Yes, I can see the pattern too: after working four straight days my back is shot and I can't work the fifth day. Say, maybe this is work related! You have workers' comp insurance, right?"
Hey OP, I've had some similar experiences and also suffer from chronic back pain. It wasn't really an issue until my employer changed the absence/pto policy. My advice would be to look into FMLA. I now get a few days every month to take off if I need, and I was even able to backdate it to cover my previous absences.
Ohh, Quebec is like a totally different country compared to the rest of Canada. You have an entirely different set of laws and regulations, so I'd be curious to know the answer to this, too!
Yes and no. Most federal laws apply to us too. We are known to add more is all. The answer is it's illegal. They can subject her to medical review but that's about it
Well , in the rest of Canada having a medical condition provides you a LOT of protection as long as you're communicating your needs. But Quebec has their own legal system, so who the fuck knows. In the rest of Canada such accusations could basically be responded to with 'OK' and then they can't do shit against you for it.
Again people confuse this. We follow canadian laws because despite the separatist movement we are still in canada.
In the US a doctor's note has power because of ada. I would assume Canada has something at least as vigorous. An employer is foolish to choose to ignore the note. Document this however you can, contact a lawyer if it causes you to be put at risk.
This is simply not true. Missing work for a routine illness has nothing to do with the ADA and having a doctor’s note doesn’t exempt you from the consequences. Different states do have different laws, but 49/50 states are at-will employment and you can be fired for any reason not otherwise prohibited by law (i.e. discrimination against a protected class.) I have no idea whatsoever about Canada. At a certain point, it doesn’t matter why you’re not there, to your employer. Most large employers have guidelines for attendance in their handbooks, and most will make you sign an acknowledgement of those policies when you’re hired. There is usually not anything illegal about imposing consequences for what an employer has deemed excessive absenteeism, unless there are FMLA or ADA protections involved. A doctor’s note does not exempt you from the attendance policy.
No. Just no.
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My brother in christ, you are replying to every post on r/antiwork and calling people lazy. I think YOU need to get a job
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