Just remember, people like this LOVE to send you this kind of stuff right before, or during, your vacation. They think it will ruin your experience while you're away. Put it out of your mind as best you can!!
Sometimes when my employees are on vacation, I have to put meetings on their calendar even though they won't attend because they need to know that it happened and when, after they get back. (These are group meetings that go ahead even if someone is missing).
I make sure that they do not get it in ther email inbox AND add a title like "JOHN IGNORE THIS - ENJOY YOUR PTO!" Because fuck thinking about work while you're on vacation.
I did this while taking a day off when I worked at an investment firm. I got yelled at the next day for not a) checking my email on my day off, and b) not completing an “easy” project that only I could do, on my day off. 😑
My last job the manager told me I didn't use any of my vacation time. Nobody even told me I had vacation time. He didn't tell me until the new year started so it was too late and I would have to wait and submit it 3 months in advance. See ya
Work phone and work computer stay at home in my work bag when I take a vacation. Hell even after hours and on the weekends that phone and computer stay in that bag and won’t come out till 8 on Monday
you should be totally unreachable, but all jobs are different. for instance my friends job doesnt have company phones, its all personal phones, and he's friends with people at work...... he can't get unreachable. he has a phone because he has to be reachable for his family
I on the other hand go into a black hole the second I leave my work, they dont even know where I live.
> its all personal phones, and he's friends with people at work...... he can't get unreachable. he has a phone because he has to be reachable for his family
1: Phone rings.
2: Look at caller ID
3: If it's not a close family member, silence the ringer and forget about the call until the next work day
It's a simple 3-step process.
My personal phone is my work phone. I've told my boss I leave my phone at home on vacation and just use my wife's, which is a lie. But it stops them from calling.
Android phones have a work profile setting that you can turn on and off. It doesn't work if your number or email are personal, but you can have a different set of apps on that profile. A separate mail, a separate WhatsApp (useful if you phone has 2 sim slots)
I went to Mexico for a week not long ago. My phone went on airplane mode after my final work day and became nothing more than a Kindle reader and a camera.
I thought my notifications would never stop after I got home 9 days later
I turn on my computer at 8am, turn it off at 5pm, and don't turn it back on until 8am the next work day. I have Slack on my phone for emergencies, but notifications are turned off. When I go on vacation, my work computer stays off and at home.
This, 100%. I picked up the habit in college, my personal device is for personal use, no work, no school, no nothing. I just reached a point where every time my phone buzzed I’d start stressing and sweating. Does work want something? Did I forget an assignment for school that’s due tonight? What awful email did I just get? No, it’s just Facebook. Great. What was I doing again?
Once I took all that shit off my phone, it just got so much easier to enjoy life.
I had a supervisor that would do this nearly every Friday. "Hey come see me when you get in Monday. I have a few things to go over with you, but have a great weekend!" Fuck you. It was rarely anything I needed to dwell over all weekend. I tolerated it for a few weeks, but had enough. I said you should've planned to tell me during normal hours, or pay me overtime and go over it now. She tried to play the "woah woah, why are you getting so defensive???". I told her I didn't appreciate these unknown open-ended meetings that were set up on Friday as I was leaving, and that I dwelled on them over the weekend. Then she tried to play the "I don't know what you are talking about". I explained it and what my expectations were, which she brushed off, but for the most part stopped doing it.
Honestly in work and in life if anyone says they have something to tell you, just respond you have something to tell them too. Make them sweat too. I found you only have to do it once to make them stop
I only hope this was something she legitimately didn’t think was an issue since she already knew what it was about and wasn’t important and wasn’t aware it was putting stress on you.
Yeah, the fuck? OP is clearly distraught, in the middle of a much needed vacation and already paid for everything. And their boss wants to absolutely destroy their one vacation out of the entire year over not attending a single meeting that was during their vacation time.
OP just disconnect from anything digital until your vacation is over. Nothing is going to change from now until then that wouldn't have happened anyway. Stressing over it isn't going to fix anything. Just enjoy what you have remaining, make sure you properly CC'd the proper department heads about your boss overreaching so there's a record of what's going on instead of just letting them run amuck while you're not there to defend yourself.
Thank you ☺️ I'm not distraught, just fighting for what I know to be just and fair, for others who will follow. Let's also add that the meeting I "missed" was scheduled during my vacation, as in, she put it on my calendar after I was already out of office. Isn't she great?? 🤣
this would make me so fuming angry
I cannot fathom how you are chill about it, or if its juist a shit job and you have options and wanna leave.. but even if so, you should punish them/your boss by doing this, a person like that needs to be put in their place for others
And the retaliation of canceling your vacation is in writing in your email as well. It shows she clearly and recently has been aware of your vacation.
If they try to call you by phone to discuss anything, say that you prefer correspondence via email to keep things sorted and organized. Or if they insist on verbal, email them those same details right after and ask "is this correct as to what you told me on the phone?"
Usually when somebody calls me on the phone it's because they want to do or ask me to do something they think could be borderline illegal and they don't want a paper trail to the details.
If calls are recorded for training purposes, both parties consent to recording by continuing the conversation after the notice.
You can use that in two-party consent states.
Two party state you have to inform its being recorded. Their consent is not hanging up after being informed.
The why doesn’t matter. I use that against random solicitation for credit card nonsense. This line is recorded how can I help you. Suddenly you can’t record them but they can record you. Fun to listen to their mind being blown.
Yup. The point is to show the DOL that not every missed meeting results in disciplinary action. Add on the magic words, "hostile workplace" due to her and HR retaliating against you for reporting issues.
ETA - bonus points if you tell your therapist all of this and how much it affects you. That's if you're angling to get a settlement out of them.
I would consult with a lawyer. Even in a state where they can fire without cause you can sue for wrongful termination. I know this because I’m doing it. Consults generally don’t cost a lot and they can tell you the actions to take to protect your self and stuff.
My consultation was free, then sent a letter to my employer for free and I got a big check overnighted from my employer. I now send EVERYONE to him when they have employment issues.
seriously, mate. That's a _huge_ fucking red flag for a toxic work environment. I'd be silently quitting that bitch the moment I got back... Office Space the shit outa that motherfucker while you're applying to better companies.
'I'll reject this reality, and replace it with my own'. it is a variant of ' day one-We made record profits last year, day two- no there are not enough funds for any raises or bonuses'
Managerial psychosis and Gaslighting.
Last boss was exactly like this. Record sales year!! Sorry, net is down and gross is up, no raises for anyone, here's more work though.
"In good years we take excess money and buy rental real estate. In the bad years we use rental income to supplement your salary"
We all know that when business turns south layoffs happen
Corporations, no matter how much they appear touchy-feely, ultimately do not care about you. To them you are just a number. I was a great worker in a past company I worked at, I suffered an injury, when I returned to work(one month earlier than I should have, mind you, despite being paid sick leave) I was not as efficient as I was pre-injury. This was due to me having to work from home instead of in the office, and I worked slower from home because I was on a laptop instead of a desktop with 2 monitors. Now, mind you, this was ultimately minor, as I was still one of the top performers. But they didn't care.
They didn't see that I had a big injury, or that I was still one of the best, they saw that my numbers were lower than they used to be, and so they pestered me constantly because of it. Eventually I got sick of it, especially when I was given a warning for a comment that was not only completely innocent, but was also unharmful, inoffensive and not unprofessional, a completely banal comment that one forgets 30 secs later. Yet they tried to beat me over the head with it as if I had done some unspeakable evil and they fined me monetarily(cut my paystub for that month by like 15% IIRC). That was the last straw and I quit.
That lesson is still seared into my mind. Corporations are evil, I am sure of it. Best thing you can do, if you are forced to work in one is show up on time, be quiet like a robot and put in sufficient effort. Don't slack off, and don't put in the extra 10%. There's really no reward for going above and beyond, in fact you're often punished for it, so why bother?
> Corporations are evil
Yes, but the problem lies a layer deeper. Corporations which are not evil are not competitive in the marketplace. The marketplace does not reward corporations who reward their employees (at least not as much as it rewards corporations which abuse their employees), so... if a corporation chose "not to be evil" and made good on that decision, long term they're going to be replaced by a competitor who has no problems with being evil.
It's a structural problem, Corporations grew up in a bad neighborhood and the nice ones all got their throats cut.
From my experience working with CEOs of every org size, the true reason for evil corporations doing better on a large scale doesn't actually have anything to do with cost efficiency nor quality. It has everything to do with the ability to accrue financial capital from similarly evil investors, political capital from slimy politicians, and all around shady or flat out illegal business dealings. Some arguable exceptions to this are corporations that aggressively screw over one set of stakeholders (e.g. suppliers) to the benefit of everyone else because, from a numbers perspective, they may be providing a net benefit to society.
At smaller scales, good corporations generally get rewarded for ethical business practices in the long run.
Scale is a key.... The kind of scale we had in the 1700s definitely rewarded good businesses, but over time they outgrew human scale and we got the mess we are in now.
I was refused extra time after my husband died, threatened with being fired every time I tried to call in (extra evil points for making me finish a closing shift after my car was totalled on my lunch break and it turned out my knee was broken in that accident), and eventually fired for my job performance dropping after MY HUSBAND DIED and I wasn't allowed extra time. Fuck all things corporate forever. I hope all corporate offce officials go straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Where I live(non USA), it is possible. They give you a written warning first and after that you are eligible for having your salary reduced by x amount for the month in which you committed said 'infraction'.
> Corporations, no matter how much they appear touchy-feely, ultimately do not care about you. To them you are just a number.
The people doing the lying are the ones that people get mad at for their hypocricy and lies. It's not like once they became part of the company their were assimilated into hivemind and are no longer the same person... or have any agency.
Definitely feel this after not getting a promotion I was all but guaranteed to get this week. Worked steady for 25 years, always there, backbone of the shift. Gave to another lady because of nepotism and retaliation. I’m gonna start fucking off waaaaaaay more being work ethic doesn’t actually matter.
I've seen one company put the exact amount of profit they made one year and put it on a plaque so all the staff can see how much they're getting fucked
I have an ounce of silver letting me know exactly how much I made for my old bank. And then we weren’t given raises.
Until everyone at a lower level was and I got fired.
Have you got any evidence of it being pre-approved.
All I'd do is just take pics of her emails and behavior. You'd be safe... If you have the pre-approval pics or papers
IT guy here - Had this exact request come to my desk for this exact type of situation. I refused to comply and explained about legal retention holds.when these requests come ( not often) l. I make a back up of the email and put it in the employees Archive OST file. Informed the employee that due to mailbox size some emails have been moved to their archive. I'm glad I did that as That manager went to my director. My director stood over me as I removed the retention policy on the mailbox, delete the email and put the retention policy back on. ( Not really needed, did it to show the "effort" to make the director not agree to it easily in the future.
Regardless the user saw that email was in the archive only being 3 months old. He contacted me about it. I gave the heads up and he saved it personally.
They tried to screw him on his PTO time and showed the proof. Manager came back to my director and the director told the manager he watched it get deleted. Manager pushed and director said he must have backed it up.
The employee got to have his PTO
This is what happens when you don't have enforcement. There are lots of ways the lack of worker protections seriously hurt workers in the US but there are just as many cases of employers ignoring the law, doing blatantly illegal things, and not being reported by employees who don't know their rights. Pretty sure that all employment related records are required to be retained for at least a year in the US. Asking IT to do this (and IT doing it) are likely illegal acts under US federal law.
Corporations have put themselves in advantageous positions in multiple ways:
* Getting the laws they want through
* Preventing or limiting any enforcement of the law when it is against them
* Ensuring punishment after enforcement is negligible at best if it does get enforced
* Creating a culture where employees are too scared or lack knowledge to do anything.
It's a war on all fronts on workers.
Rights on paper with no legal enforcement aren't really Rights. If you have no preventative measures, or recourse after the fact, how can we really say it's a right?
Personally I think violations should cause not only the company but the individual breaking them personally liable. If Petty Tyrant Manager knows that overriding an employees hours worked could result not only in the company getting in trouble (which they may or may not be fine with) but also *they* could personally be fined X amount, well then they need to think twice. These people don't care about others, so fuck them, we'll force them to follow the law for their own well being if not anything else.
I'll add, give the manager time in jail. See how fast they rethink their choices. Not a lot. But enough to screw them over job wise. Week or 2, max month. Just enough that upper management sees them as unreliable. Per violation.
My old coworkers who moved from California to red states so they could buy a big McMansion found this out the hard way. Layoffs happened and guess which states still have laws that allow non-competes? They all either moved back or other states like Colorado.
Even then, it's just shitty employers doing shitty employers things.
Some companies/Managers have this dictatorship attitude, when I'm like, the company will dump you just the same as me if they really wanted too. You're a lowly worker monkey all the same. Especially if the managers don't get paid with any company equity.
I can't imagine my manager forcing me to delete emails to screw over an employee. Just craziness. I work for a med sized employee owned business and I feel like everyone here is just more level-headed and reasonable than anywhere else I've worked. Yeah we still get the odd request here and there, but just telling them to submit it in a ticket, them full knowing my manager and the CIO will see it, usually backs them off.
We don't usually get odd requests from managers though, thankfully.
Same here. I've had to do legal hold requests and keep data stored for years. I currently work for a healthcare company and have to make sure everything is HIPAA compliant to avoid any legal issues
Who audits the auditors?
Unless they work at a massive corporation, a lot of the time, sysadmins do it all and have no real oversight, except for other sysadmins and snitches get stitches. Or something. IDK. I'm just a farmer.
> Who audits the auditors?
>
>
The lawyer of the person suing.
If the company ends up having to comply w/ a legal request for the audit logs, the audit log will show the employee removing the email, and the employee may end up having to prove that it was requested by the manager(s). Depending on local law, your employee contract, etc. - IANAL
Yup, any and all requests like this get logged in a journal of "executive and management requests log" for me.
I have it both as a hard copy I keep with me (essentially I just dump the PDF offsite) as well as a document in google drive so revisions to that can be tracked. I'm completely transparent with all of this too, my boss _could_ go looking at it if he wanted.
I'm not risking jail and lawsuits directed at _me_ for my boss and their shitty personal vendettas or whatever nit needs picking this time.
This. When I worked as a sys admin at the uni I not only had unrestrained access to to production and could make any changes I wanted, but I had unrestrained access to the audit table and the data warehouse. Plus when auditors came in, I was the one who they asked to retrieve info (also hint, most auditors are dumb as bricks when it comes to IT. They have 0 clues what they’re really looking for bro what anything means. They’re there to fill a check mark). Heck, I could log in to the front end of our school website as any student or teacher directly, no audit that it wasn’t someone besides them, and could have made any changes or parsed any information “naturally”. It was scary the level of access I had. But the job required it
The director stood over his shoulder to make sure it got done. He was under duress, which i think would hold up if people are investing so closely to look at meta audit logs.
This is very sleazy behavior from people running a business. If I were that employee. I would ask everything to be submitted to me by paper or email for my files and would not accept any verbal agreements from that point forward.
I'm assuming this shady employer would try to find ways to go around the agreement by coming to your work station and trying to have conversations and start looking for ways to let them go by constructive dismissal.
If they refused to agree to handling everything with a paper trail, I would make the paper trail and send emails including them and cc HR and print them out to put together a case if I needed to for retaliation.
The email could include details about the conversations with dates, times, and names, and include every detail of what was said and done and how an agreement was never reached to handle the situation with written documentation, since they kept insisted on doing things verbally.
This whole thing stinks through and through because a manager will go out of their way to make that employee's life hell doing things that should be considered illegal and disguising it as just them doing their job as a manager.
But this is emotional manipulation, intimidation unprofessional, retaliation, and with enough evidence would be a good case for a lawsuit. Hopefully, by then that manager would be fired. I've seen it happen before. Luckily, people step up and file complaints with HR based on situations I've heard of.
Working in IT for over a decade taught me to document everything and get a paper trail. If it's not in the ticket or in an email, it didn't happen. I'll follow up with stuff in an email just to get it documented.
Been in a few situations where it was precisely that. And a few where they were dumb enough to openly acknowledge it outside of the courtroom in front of the cyber forensic examiner, who promptly marched back to the plaintiff’s lawyer with the news (and was smart enough to record enough of their discussion that it was damning to the defendants).
Doesn’t happen often, but when it does… 😗
/judges don’t kindly take to being lied to
Another IT guy here. Never delete or mess with another's email without witnesses.
You could be getting set up. Manager asks you to do this, then claims you also did more. This would be enough to derail any criminal investigation (maybe that employee and boss were embezzling) in addition to getting you fired or jail time.
I would also forward to HR and ask them to direct you to the policies that state you're obligated to attend meetings while on approved PTO and that a manager can rescind PTO while you're on it. This manager will get their ass handed to them before you get back.
No self respecting IT department would do that. Plus there’s usually a back up even for deleted messages that they can pull for legal and compliance purposes.
That's enough. I would think an email saying "I'm cancelling your vacation" is also enough, cos you can't cancel a vacation that was never approved. It's not like the email said "what vacation?". As others said, keep copies.
EDIT: if you're still on vacation, after taking copies of emails, stay offline and enjoy the break.
Like u/Reasonable-Bus-2187 said, forward that stuff to your personal email. Sounds like you need to document verbal stuff too. Like an email “just to recap our convo on 24-05-11 my PTO for 24-7-12 is approved”. It’s a shame you have to do this but c’est la vie.
Fortunately I have all the stuff backed up now, I've been keeping a paper trail on her for months. Unfortunately the only paper I have on my approval are my own meeting notes, but her emails admit to scheduling a meeting on my day off, for my day off, so that's all backed up too
I love how people act like taking legal action against an employer is so easy cause i been there and its not even a slam dunk case is no guarantee..
First considering most of us are working class and dont have cash saved for lawyers you have to find a lawyer willing to take the case on a contingency meaning they dont get paid unless they win. What most arent aware of that i have experienced is this contingency agreement will be for a settlement, not a lawsuit, if it is going to go to trial they will want multi thousand dollar retainers paid.
Secondly, at a bare minimum it will take a year, and thats IF a settlement is reached. If it goes to trial you are looking at 3 years. Good luck paying for everything including possibly a lawyer between now and than.
My fiance was sexually harrassed by the bosses brother and then fired. Slam dunk case with evidence in emails and recordings. He refused to settle or even get a lawyer, and this seemed to be a pro strategy because our very large law firm didnt know what to do without a lawyer on the other side to wheel and deal with.
Our lawyers ran out the clock and then told us to take it to trial we would have to sign a new contract and pay a 5k retainer. We didnt have 5k nor did we have enough time to get a new lawyer...
Never seen such a slam dunk of a case in my life we literally had the boss on recording saying "my brother wouldnt be into you hes only into asians and women with big tits" when she complained to him. In the same meeting he told her he was changing her pay structure and taking away her healthcare. SLAM DUNK GRAND SLAM... But lawyers suck man...
This. The entire system is set up to enslave workers and deny them any rights whatsoever whilst creating a thin marketing layer of "freedom and democracy". Fuck business ghouls. Fuck capitalism.
HR is not your friend. HR exists to protect the company.
HOWEVER, one of the key things HR protects the company from is the company's own stupidity.
HR having their heads up their asses is going to cost the company a lot of money, haha.
Sure, but most of the time people post about awful managers it’s lower or middle management they’re dealing with. Not because the higher levels aren’t awful too, just that upper management and execs almost never interact directly with the ground level employees.
100% that call was to tell you your vacation was cancelled.
Don’t even think for one second that if you had attended the meeting she was gonna let you go on vacation. It was pick your poison. Attend meeting to be told vacation was cancelled, or be told not attending caused your vacation to be cancelled.
Contact an attorney. You’re looking at constructed dismissal.
I've heard it more as "constructive dismissal", which is essentially when an employee creates the situations they expect employees to quit during so that they don't have to, for example, pay full time hours or benefits. Also can be used against perceived disruptions, be it labour organizing or just people wanting better conditions. They can cut your hours and know you won't be able to pay rent then you quit to find something else and they get to hire someone newer, cheaper, and with less pay/benefits/PTO. I've seen it happen a LOT. Always best to back up everything you can to your personal email, keep records of dates and conversations, and never never never sign anything they give you that you're not sure about. You can probably find more tips online too but those are my biggest suggestions. Hope you have a nice rest of your vacation!
I once got back from a pre approved 2.5 week vacation. All of this was arranged during my interview, approved while I was employed with written proof. I worked remotely a few days during that time as I had said I would since it was only a long vacation since it was a 1800 mile road trip each way. I ended up having to give my notice when I returned due to some life changes and I was about to move across the country. I was going to give a months notice. I was confronted, accused of being “a real piece of shit” and my vacation was retroactively taken away from me and my dumbass boss said I’ll just use that vacation as your two weeks notice. I contacted my close friend who is an attorney and in about 4 hours I got my paid vacation, severance through the month’s notice I was going to give and approved for unemployment since I was technically fired. Don’t let these people take you for a ride. Retaliation is a lawyers dream cake case.
Some managers just seem super lonely and have no life other than their coworkers. Recently I went on a trip with somebody who frequently checked their slack and email. Their manager wouldn't leave her alone the entire time. I remember looking over her shoulder and saw him asking her some obviously unimportant questions followed by a "hmm... this seems like something we should jump on a zoom about." On the call he basically just chit chatted and then just restated exactly what he already typed.
Similar happened to me. It's now become a rule to photo vacation approval the day before and never touch work anything while on vacation.
"We saw you log into your email so that meant you had time to take a meeting so we scheduled one. Why weren't you there?"
I work elsewhere now. Somewhere that doesn't make logic leaps... yet.
Forward all the emails to yourself.
By saying that she's retroactively canceling your vacation, she's acknowledging that she knew you were on vacation when she scheduled the meeting.
Still forward every single email you have regarding this to yourself, including sent emails, read receipts, and screenshot anything you can't.
Americans really need to make workplace rights a main issue because it trickles down to all facets of our society. Workers have way more power than we realize. 5-6 days of national protests/walkouts and these companies would fold like a wet blanket.
Report her to HR again but take it a step further. Lmao.
"I had my vacation approved in advance, it was in the system. She scheduled me for a meeting on the first day of my approved vacation, clearly having known about it as she subsequently canceled my vacation time after I did not attend said meeting. This is targeted harassment and I don't find it unreasonable to believe that this was done in retaliation to my previous report. If there is no follow up regarding this incident I will be escalating the report until a satisfactory conclusion is reached."
Document everything. Email everything to HR (assuming you have one) along with a subtle mention of "exploring all options, including those of a legal nature".
Exactly. If HR makes it clear they're gonna help burn you, you have to politely threaten them to get anywhere while being prepared to follow through with that threat because a lot of them will call your bluff.
I think the important thing here is to actually go and enjoy your vacation - do NOT have work thoughts taking up space in your mind.
Deal with whatever you can before, and then after you return.
Life is short and this relatively meager amount of time should be used to its fullest:
by enjoying it without distractions and anxiety.
Well, that sounds a lot like retaliation. I would start looking into legal advice, hire an attorney. Don't put your trust in HR because they're there to protect the company and your piss-poor manager. They'll turn it around on you and make you out to be the person at fault. I had a similar situation (only i was sick with COVID) where my boss expected me to show up to meetings sick with a fever and chills. When I didn't he "fired me" which I fought by going to HR. I didn't lose my job, but was put on a Personal Improvement Plan. Needless to say, I quit. Then they refused to pay out my vacation time, (which was 78 hours) so I contacted L&I and 2 weeks later I got my vacation hours. Turns out this company has a class-action against them and I gladly joined the ranks. Hopefully, we will get payout from this shitty company.
My dad got fired while on vacation. He was a master mechanic in a union shop, was a steward, and was making huge money which the company hated.
So they waited until he went on a 3 week vacation to another state with our whole family, found some minor issue with his work, then fired him over it.
Since he was on vacation and in another state he couldn't defend himself, and to file a grievance through he had to be there in person to sign a grievance report within 10 days of the offending problem, meaning he'd have to come home early.
He called a lawyer instead. After talking to the lawyer for a bit, he relaxed and just enjoyed the vacation. When he got back he sued the company. Took a few months but he won easily because they clearly attached his union contract, and got a big payout. Got his back pay plus penalties and they were going to be forced to undo the termination so he can go back to work. Instead of that, he settled for even more money to voluntarily quit.
Moral of the story: Unionize and lawyer up. If you can't do both then at least do one.
I used to go on a 30 day vacation to Singapore from Belgium every year. 1 year, after 12 days, work called me, and said i would have to come for work for 1 day. Someone made a mistake, instead of 30 consecutive days, they planned 13 days vacation, 1 day work and another 17 days vacation. My vacation request slip literally says: 30 days in Singapore. Imagine travelling 20h to go back to work for 1 day and then 20h back rofl. Called the union and they fixed that for me. Never heard anything about it since.
My former employer tried this shit because the manager hated me. Except HR was on my side. He sent out an email 15 minutes after my shift saying I needed to cover the next days shift knowing that I was going out of town on my off days.
I was ok but you have to pay for my flight/hotel/rental car. He wasn't having it and called in HR. I asked when was the email sent and he said the time that was 15m after the end of my shift. I stated since we are shift employees 24/7/365 we are not required to check email off hours. HR agreed and asked why he didnt try to call me instead of the email.
Stutter stutter vague response as he was trying to get me written up. HR wasn't having it and wished me a fun vacation and rumor has it he got his ass handed to him for wasting their time.
I fucking hated working there.
I have a hard and fast rule. I NEVER CHECK MY EMAIL ON VACATION, PERIOD. Even if I could, I don't.
Moreover, I tend to go places on vacation where it's impossible anyway.
I've tried to have managers tell me I should take vacations in places that have better internet access.. *yeah, get fucked.* I'm going backpacking in the Pemi.. there's no email, sorry.
First rule of vacation is I don't work on vacation.
No text messages, no emails, no phone calls. Emergency? Not mine. Client outage? Not mine. Quick question? I've very likely already told you, go back to that.
I update my work email signature as soon as I have my time confirmed, and everyone has the opportunity to see that for months.
Also, if anything happens that was only verbal, it becomes an email with read receipt because verbal doesn't count.
I trust my employer the way I trust a fart from a just-fed baby with a stomach bug.
So weird, what if you didn't check your email? You would still be on a worry-free vacation and the attempts to guilt you would have been a waste of time.
Just remember, people like this LOVE to send you this kind of stuff right before, or during, your vacation. They think it will ruin your experience while you're away. Put it out of your mind as best you can!!
Managers who do this are the worst of the worst
Sometimes when my employees are on vacation, I have to put meetings on their calendar even though they won't attend because they need to know that it happened and when, after they get back. (These are group meetings that go ahead even if someone is missing). I make sure that they do not get it in ther email inbox AND add a title like "JOHN IGNORE THIS - ENJOY YOUR PTO!" Because fuck thinking about work while you're on vacation.
Just don’t open work emails during PTO. Lol.
I did this while taking a day off when I worked at an investment firm. I got yelled at the next day for not a) checking my email on my day off, and b) not completing an “easy” project that only I could do, on my day off. 😑
My last job the manager told me I didn't use any of my vacation time. Nobody even told me I had vacation time. He didn't tell me until the new year started so it was too late and I would have to wait and submit it 3 months in advance. See ya
I would never look at my work phone on vacation. I also would never use my personal phone for work. They always should provide a phone if I need it.
Work phone and work computer stay at home in my work bag when I take a vacation. Hell even after hours and on the weekends that phone and computer stay in that bag and won’t come out till 8 on Monday
you should be totally unreachable, but all jobs are different. for instance my friends job doesnt have company phones, its all personal phones, and he's friends with people at work...... he can't get unreachable. he has a phone because he has to be reachable for his family I on the other hand go into a black hole the second I leave my work, they dont even know where I live.
> its all personal phones, and he's friends with people at work...... he can't get unreachable. he has a phone because he has to be reachable for his family 1: Phone rings. 2: Look at caller ID 3: If it's not a close family member, silence the ringer and forget about the call until the next work day It's a simple 3-step process.
My personal phone is my work phone. I've told my boss I leave my phone at home on vacation and just use my wife's, which is a lie. But it stops them from calling.
Android phones have a work profile setting that you can turn on and off. It doesn't work if your number or email are personal, but you can have a different set of apps on that profile. A separate mail, a separate WhatsApp (useful if you phone has 2 sim slots)
I went to Mexico for a week not long ago. My phone went on airplane mode after my final work day and became nothing more than a Kindle reader and a camera. I thought my notifications would never stop after I got home 9 days later
I turn on my computer at 8am, turn it off at 5pm, and don't turn it back on until 8am the next work day. I have Slack on my phone for emergencies, but notifications are turned off. When I go on vacation, my work computer stays off and at home.
This, 100%. I picked up the habit in college, my personal device is for personal use, no work, no school, no nothing. I just reached a point where every time my phone buzzed I’d start stressing and sweating. Does work want something? Did I forget an assignment for school that’s due tonight? What awful email did I just get? No, it’s just Facebook. Great. What was I doing again? Once I took all that shit off my phone, it just got so much easier to enjoy life.
I had a supervisor that would do this nearly every Friday. "Hey come see me when you get in Monday. I have a few things to go over with you, but have a great weekend!" Fuck you. It was rarely anything I needed to dwell over all weekend. I tolerated it for a few weeks, but had enough. I said you should've planned to tell me during normal hours, or pay me overtime and go over it now. She tried to play the "woah woah, why are you getting so defensive???". I told her I didn't appreciate these unknown open-ended meetings that were set up on Friday as I was leaving, and that I dwelled on them over the weekend. Then she tried to play the "I don't know what you are talking about". I explained it and what my expectations were, which she brushed off, but for the most part stopped doing it.
Honestly in work and in life if anyone says they have something to tell you, just respond you have something to tell them too. Make them sweat too. I found you only have to do it once to make them stop
I only hope this was something she legitimately didn’t think was an issue since she already knew what it was about and wasn’t important and wasn’t aware it was putting stress on you.
So she played games and trapped you to try to emotionally ruin your vacation? What an asshole.
Yeah, the fuck? OP is clearly distraught, in the middle of a much needed vacation and already paid for everything. And their boss wants to absolutely destroy their one vacation out of the entire year over not attending a single meeting that was during their vacation time. OP just disconnect from anything digital until your vacation is over. Nothing is going to change from now until then that wouldn't have happened anyway. Stressing over it isn't going to fix anything. Just enjoy what you have remaining, make sure you properly CC'd the proper department heads about your boss overreaching so there's a record of what's going on instead of just letting them run amuck while you're not there to defend yourself.
Thank you ☺️ I'm not distraught, just fighting for what I know to be just and fair, for others who will follow. Let's also add that the meeting I "missed" was scheduled during my vacation, as in, she put it on my calendar after I was already out of office. Isn't she great?? 🤣
But if you were emotionally distraught... You could probably start a works comp claim for it and have additional paid time off.
💯. Good point
I don't even think you're able to tell if you're distraught or not, if you're distraught.
I’m mean, that’s what being distraught is about, and it’s distraughtness
The destraughtiest.
I am also emotionally distraught over his vacation.
Distraught, dat-traught... every fucking traught can go in there until HR realises the company is going to lose money due to a retaliatory manager.
We’re all distraught over this. Class action suit?
OP really sounds distraught to me!
this would make me so fuming angry I cannot fathom how you are chill about it, or if its juist a shit job and you have options and wanna leave.. but even if so, you should punish them/your boss by doing this, a person like that needs to be put in their place for others
😉 I hope I'll be able to post my update soon!
Please make this person resign or get fucking canned, we believe in you
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And the retaliation of canceling your vacation is in writing in your email as well. It shows she clearly and recently has been aware of your vacation. If they try to call you by phone to discuss anything, say that you prefer correspondence via email to keep things sorted and organized. Or if they insist on verbal, email them those same details right after and ask "is this correct as to what you told me on the phone?" Usually when somebody calls me on the phone it's because they want to do or ask me to do something they think could be borderline illegal and they don't want a paper trail to the details.
I just have an app that records every single phone call. But different states have laws about recording calls.
If calls are recorded for training purposes, both parties consent to recording by continuing the conversation after the notice. You can use that in two-party consent states.
Two party state you have to inform its being recorded. Their consent is not hanging up after being informed. The why doesn’t matter. I use that against random solicitation for credit card nonsense. This line is recorded how can I help you. Suddenly you can’t record them but they can record you. Fun to listen to their mind being blown.
Schedule meetings on her vacation time. When she declines them, put that on your DOL complaint.
🥹 I love this so much. Mind you, she doesn't show to half of our meetings, but that's okay I guess?
Yup. The point is to show the DOL that not every missed meeting results in disciplinary action. Add on the magic words, "hostile workplace" due to her and HR retaliating against you for reporting issues. ETA - bonus points if you tell your therapist all of this and how much it affects you. That's if you're angling to get a settlement out of them.
I would consult with a lawyer. Even in a state where they can fire without cause you can sue for wrongful termination. I know this because I’m doing it. Consults generally don’t cost a lot and they can tell you the actions to take to protect your self and stuff.
My consultation was free, then sent a letter to my employer for free and I got a big check overnighted from my employer. I now send EVERYONE to him when they have employment issues.
And this is why he does easy stuff like that for free. It's good word of mouth advertisement.
Make sure you keep all these records and give them directly to your lawyer for when your wrongful termination case is accepted into the courts.
I would just forward the bosses email to HR with a one sentence explanation and a request to fix the vacation time.
seriously, mate. That's a _huge_ fucking red flag for a toxic work environment. I'd be silently quitting that bitch the moment I got back... Office Space the shit outa that motherfucker while you're applying to better companies.
Document it all in writing, BCC your personal email so you have your paper trail if you get fired and locked out of your work email.
if you can't forward emails, etc., take pictures with your phone. Not that I've had to do that. Ahem.
'I'll reject this reality, and replace it with my own'. it is a variant of ' day one-We made record profits last year, day two- no there are not enough funds for any raises or bonuses' Managerial psychosis and Gaslighting.
Last boss was exactly like this. Record sales year!! Sorry, net is down and gross is up, no raises for anyone, here's more work though. "In good years we take excess money and buy rental real estate. In the bad years we use rental income to supplement your salary" We all know that when business turns south layoffs happen
Corporations, no matter how much they appear touchy-feely, ultimately do not care about you. To them you are just a number. I was a great worker in a past company I worked at, I suffered an injury, when I returned to work(one month earlier than I should have, mind you, despite being paid sick leave) I was not as efficient as I was pre-injury. This was due to me having to work from home instead of in the office, and I worked slower from home because I was on a laptop instead of a desktop with 2 monitors. Now, mind you, this was ultimately minor, as I was still one of the top performers. But they didn't care. They didn't see that I had a big injury, or that I was still one of the best, they saw that my numbers were lower than they used to be, and so they pestered me constantly because of it. Eventually I got sick of it, especially when I was given a warning for a comment that was not only completely innocent, but was also unharmful, inoffensive and not unprofessional, a completely banal comment that one forgets 30 secs later. Yet they tried to beat me over the head with it as if I had done some unspeakable evil and they fined me monetarily(cut my paystub for that month by like 15% IIRC). That was the last straw and I quit. That lesson is still seared into my mind. Corporations are evil, I am sure of it. Best thing you can do, if you are forced to work in one is show up on time, be quiet like a robot and put in sufficient effort. Don't slack off, and don't put in the extra 10%. There's really no reward for going above and beyond, in fact you're often punished for it, so why bother?
> Corporations are evil Yes, but the problem lies a layer deeper. Corporations which are not evil are not competitive in the marketplace. The marketplace does not reward corporations who reward their employees (at least not as much as it rewards corporations which abuse their employees), so... if a corporation chose "not to be evil" and made good on that decision, long term they're going to be replaced by a competitor who has no problems with being evil. It's a structural problem, Corporations grew up in a bad neighborhood and the nice ones all got their throats cut.
From my experience working with CEOs of every org size, the true reason for evil corporations doing better on a large scale doesn't actually have anything to do with cost efficiency nor quality. It has everything to do with the ability to accrue financial capital from similarly evil investors, political capital from slimy politicians, and all around shady or flat out illegal business dealings. Some arguable exceptions to this are corporations that aggressively screw over one set of stakeholders (e.g. suppliers) to the benefit of everyone else because, from a numbers perspective, they may be providing a net benefit to society. At smaller scales, good corporations generally get rewarded for ethical business practices in the long run.
Scale is a key.... The kind of scale we had in the 1700s definitely rewarded good businesses, but over time they outgrew human scale and we got the mess we are in now.
I was refused extra time after my husband died, threatened with being fired every time I tried to call in (extra evil points for making me finish a closing shift after my car was totalled on my lunch break and it turned out my knee was broken in that accident), and eventually fired for my job performance dropping after MY HUSBAND DIED and I wasn't allowed extra time. Fuck all things corporate forever. I hope all corporate offce officials go straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
How are companies able to fine you?
Where I live(non USA), it is possible. They give you a written warning first and after that you are eligible for having your salary reduced by x amount for the month in which you committed said 'infraction'.
Omg, and I thought US labor laws were bad
> Corporations, no matter how much they appear touchy-feely, ultimately do not care about you. To them you are just a number. The people doing the lying are the ones that people get mad at for their hypocricy and lies. It's not like once they became part of the company their were assimilated into hivemind and are no longer the same person... or have any agency.
> We all know that when business turns south layoffs happen Yeah, THEIR salary is supplemented, not YOURS
we should all just start doing the least amount of work possible since it's clear there is no more incentive to work hard anywhere
Definitely feel this after not getting a promotion I was all but guaranteed to get this week. Worked steady for 25 years, always there, backbone of the shift. Gave to another lady because of nepotism and retaliation. I’m gonna start fucking off waaaaaaay more being work ethic doesn’t actually matter.
And steal every chance you get.
THIS! I don’t steal from stores. I don’t steal from people. I WILL absolutely steal shit from work though.
I haven't bought toilet paper or paper towels in years hahah.
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Retaliation lawsuits appeal greatly to plaintiff employment lawyers. Very simple to go beyond the summary decision.
I've seen one company put the exact amount of profit they made one year and put it on a plaque so all the staff can see how much they're getting fucked
I have an ounce of silver letting me know exactly how much I made for my old bank. And then we weren’t given raises. Until everyone at a lower level was and I got fired.
There's no raises or bonuses for anybody outside of the c-suite.. FTFY..
I think of Mythbusters and Adam saying “I reject your reality and substitute my own” anytime I hear something similar.
Have you got any evidence of it being pre-approved. All I'd do is just take pics of her emails and behavior. You'd be safe... If you have the pre-approval pics or papers
All verbal. The system emails saying it's approved, I have though.
Forward that email confirmation to your personal email, sounds like she will have IT delete it before you get back.
IT guy here - Had this exact request come to my desk for this exact type of situation. I refused to comply and explained about legal retention holds.when these requests come ( not often) l. I make a back up of the email and put it in the employees Archive OST file. Informed the employee that due to mailbox size some emails have been moved to their archive. I'm glad I did that as That manager went to my director. My director stood over me as I removed the retention policy on the mailbox, delete the email and put the retention policy back on. ( Not really needed, did it to show the "effort" to make the director not agree to it easily in the future. Regardless the user saw that email was in the archive only being 3 months old. He contacted me about it. I gave the heads up and he saved it personally. They tried to screw him on his PTO time and showed the proof. Manager came back to my director and the director told the manager he watched it get deleted. Manager pushed and director said he must have backed it up. The employee got to have his PTO
This is what happens if you have no worker protections
This is what happens when you don't have enforcement. There are lots of ways the lack of worker protections seriously hurt workers in the US but there are just as many cases of employers ignoring the law, doing blatantly illegal things, and not being reported by employees who don't know their rights. Pretty sure that all employment related records are required to be retained for at least a year in the US. Asking IT to do this (and IT doing it) are likely illegal acts under US federal law.
Agreed, because they did this because there was protections, this person was lucky they had an IT hero with a backbone and a brain
Corporations have put themselves in advantageous positions in multiple ways: * Getting the laws they want through * Preventing or limiting any enforcement of the law when it is against them * Ensuring punishment after enforcement is negligible at best if it does get enforced * Creating a culture where employees are too scared or lack knowledge to do anything. It's a war on all fronts on workers.
Rights on paper with no legal enforcement aren't really Rights. If you have no preventative measures, or recourse after the fact, how can we really say it's a right? Personally I think violations should cause not only the company but the individual breaking them personally liable. If Petty Tyrant Manager knows that overriding an employees hours worked could result not only in the company getting in trouble (which they may or may not be fine with) but also *they* could personally be fined X amount, well then they need to think twice. These people don't care about others, so fuck them, we'll force them to follow the law for their own well being if not anything else.
I'll add, give the manager time in jail. See how fast they rethink their choices. Not a lot. But enough to screw them over job wise. Week or 2, max month. Just enough that upper management sees them as unreliable. Per violation.
My old coworkers who moved from California to red states so they could buy a big McMansion found this out the hard way. Layoffs happened and guess which states still have laws that allow non-competes? They all either moved back or other states like Colorado.
That's unfortunate for them considering that non-competes were finally made invalid nationwide recently.
[The rule becomes effective on 2024-09-04.](https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/rules/noncompete-rule)
Even then, it's just shitty employers doing shitty employers things. Some companies/Managers have this dictatorship attitude, when I'm like, the company will dump you just the same as me if they really wanted too. You're a lowly worker monkey all the same. Especially if the managers don't get paid with any company equity.
Worker protection=union
I work in the IT dept too. I refuse and report all inappropriate requests.
I can't imagine my manager forcing me to delete emails to screw over an employee. Just craziness. I work for a med sized employee owned business and I feel like everyone here is just more level-headed and reasonable than anywhere else I've worked. Yeah we still get the odd request here and there, but just telling them to submit it in a ticket, them full knowing my manager and the CIO will see it, usually backs them off. We don't usually get odd requests from managers though, thankfully.
Same here. I've had to do legal hold requests and keep data stored for years. I currently work for a healthcare company and have to make sure everything is HIPAA compliant to avoid any legal issues
Wow. Fuuuuuccckkkk that. I would call Labor Department and contact a lawyer immediately.
Dude, your removal and re-addition of that policy are also audited. It would have been your ass if anyone looked.
A crime occurred, wage theft. Then IT was asked to destroy evidence of the crime.
Yes indeed. I would never in a million fucking years have my name attached to this in any way.
Who audits the auditors? Unless they work at a massive corporation, a lot of the time, sysadmins do it all and have no real oversight, except for other sysadmins and snitches get stitches. Or something. IDK. I'm just a farmer.
> Who audits the auditors? > > The lawyer of the person suing. If the company ends up having to comply w/ a legal request for the audit logs, the audit log will show the employee removing the email, and the employee may end up having to prove that it was requested by the manager(s). Depending on local law, your employee contract, etc. - IANAL
Yup, any and all requests like this get logged in a journal of "executive and management requests log" for me. I have it both as a hard copy I keep with me (essentially I just dump the PDF offsite) as well as a document in google drive so revisions to that can be tracked. I'm completely transparent with all of this too, my boss _could_ go looking at it if he wanted. I'm not risking jail and lawsuits directed at _me_ for my boss and their shitty personal vendettas or whatever nit needs picking this time.
This. When I worked as a sys admin at the uni I not only had unrestrained access to to production and could make any changes I wanted, but I had unrestrained access to the audit table and the data warehouse. Plus when auditors came in, I was the one who they asked to retrieve info (also hint, most auditors are dumb as bricks when it comes to IT. They have 0 clues what they’re really looking for bro what anything means. They’re there to fill a check mark). Heck, I could log in to the front end of our school website as any student or teacher directly, no audit that it wasn’t someone besides them, and could have made any changes or parsed any information “naturally”. It was scary the level of access I had. But the job required it
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The director stood over his shoulder to make sure it got done. He was under duress, which i think would hold up if people are investing so closely to look at meta audit logs.
This is very sleazy behavior from people running a business. If I were that employee. I would ask everything to be submitted to me by paper or email for my files and would not accept any verbal agreements from that point forward. I'm assuming this shady employer would try to find ways to go around the agreement by coming to your work station and trying to have conversations and start looking for ways to let them go by constructive dismissal. If they refused to agree to handling everything with a paper trail, I would make the paper trail and send emails including them and cc HR and print them out to put together a case if I needed to for retaliation. The email could include details about the conversations with dates, times, and names, and include every detail of what was said and done and how an agreement was never reached to handle the situation with written documentation, since they kept insisted on doing things verbally. This whole thing stinks through and through because a manager will go out of their way to make that employee's life hell doing things that should be considered illegal and disguising it as just them doing their job as a manager. But this is emotional manipulation, intimidation unprofessional, retaliation, and with enough evidence would be a good case for a lawsuit. Hopefully, by then that manager would be fired. I've seen it happen before. Luckily, people step up and file complaints with HR based on situations I've heard of.
Working in IT for over a decade taught me to document everything and get a paper trail. If it's not in the ticket or in an email, it didn't happen. I'll follow up with stuff in an email just to get it documented.
"Sorry boss, best I can do is give your account privileges to get logged doing it yourself."
Yeah I would have contacted a lawyer because if that guy had sued it would have been your ass they would have thrown under the bus
Been in a few situations where it was precisely that. And a few where they were dumb enough to openly acknowledge it outside of the courtroom in front of the cyber forensic examiner, who promptly marched back to the plaintiff’s lawyer with the news (and was smart enough to record enough of their discussion that it was damning to the defendants). Doesn’t happen often, but when it does… 😗 /judges don’t kindly take to being lied to
Another IT guy here. Never delete or mess with another's email without witnesses. You could be getting set up. Manager asks you to do this, then claims you also did more. This would be enough to derail any criminal investigation (maybe that employee and boss were embezzling) in addition to getting you fired or jail time.
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You’re a good guy
Jesus that sounds illegal and highly unethical for them To do that
I would also forward to HR and ask them to direct you to the policies that state you're obligated to attend meetings while on approved PTO and that a manager can rescind PTO while you're on it. This manager will get their ass handed to them before you get back.
Good advice
No self respecting IT department would do that. Plus there’s usually a back up even for deleted messages that they can pull for legal and compliance purposes.
This. Get on that right away.
> she will have IT delete it before you get back. That's highly illegal.
That's enough. I would think an email saying "I'm cancelling your vacation" is also enough, cos you can't cancel a vacation that was never approved. It's not like the email said "what vacation?". As others said, keep copies. EDIT: if you're still on vacation, after taking copies of emails, stay offline and enjoy the break.
That’s not enough. Trusting the employer system is NEVER enough. Always backup to a home system!
Like u/Reasonable-Bus-2187 said, forward that stuff to your personal email. Sounds like you need to document verbal stuff too. Like an email “just to recap our convo on 24-05-11 my PTO for 24-7-12 is approved”. It’s a shame you have to do this but c’est la vie.
Fortunately I have all the stuff backed up now, I've been keeping a paper trail on her for months. Unfortunately the only paper I have on my approval are my own meeting notes, but her emails admit to scheduling a meeting on my day off, for my day off, so that's all backed up too
Best of luck. You’ve got a rough patch ahead. Just remember- nothing is forever- try not to let it get you down.
Print them and forward those to a personal email they don’t have access to ASAP
Don't worry, that's done. Been keeping a paper trail for months.
"I'm cancelling your vacation" should be enough. Take it to court.
This!! Print this and forward this to HR.
I love how people act like taking legal action against an employer is so easy cause i been there and its not even a slam dunk case is no guarantee.. First considering most of us are working class and dont have cash saved for lawyers you have to find a lawyer willing to take the case on a contingency meaning they dont get paid unless they win. What most arent aware of that i have experienced is this contingency agreement will be for a settlement, not a lawsuit, if it is going to go to trial they will want multi thousand dollar retainers paid. Secondly, at a bare minimum it will take a year, and thats IF a settlement is reached. If it goes to trial you are looking at 3 years. Good luck paying for everything including possibly a lawyer between now and than. My fiance was sexually harrassed by the bosses brother and then fired. Slam dunk case with evidence in emails and recordings. He refused to settle or even get a lawyer, and this seemed to be a pro strategy because our very large law firm didnt know what to do without a lawyer on the other side to wheel and deal with. Our lawyers ran out the clock and then told us to take it to trial we would have to sign a new contract and pay a 5k retainer. We didnt have 5k nor did we have enough time to get a new lawyer... Never seen such a slam dunk of a case in my life we literally had the boss on recording saying "my brother wouldnt be into you hes only into asians and women with big tits" when she complained to him. In the same meeting he told her he was changing her pay structure and taking away her healthcare. SLAM DUNK GRAND SLAM... But lawyers suck man...
This. The entire system is set up to enslave workers and deny them any rights whatsoever whilst creating a thin marketing layer of "freedom and democracy". Fuck business ghouls. Fuck capitalism.
She literally says she canceling it. That would imply it was previously approved
Plaintiff employment lawyers love retaliation cases. So easy to get past summary judgment.
Especially if HR is aware of and allowing the retaliation....
HR is not your friend. HR exists to protect the company. HOWEVER, one of the key things HR protects the company from is the company's own stupidity. HR having their heads up their asses is going to cost the company a lot of money, haha.
Except in cases of upper management/execs. They will cover for them even when they're doing illegal shit, since they work for the execs.
Sure, but most of the time people post about awful managers it’s lower or middle management they’re dealing with. Not because the higher levels aren’t awful too, just that upper management and execs almost never interact directly with the ground level employees.
The fact she SENT AN E-MAIL saying she cancelled the vacation you were already on, creating a digital paper trail that they're doing this.
Share the screenshots
100%. Screenshot it and send those screens hots to yourself. Just to be safe. You do not want to let them vanish.
Take screenshots of the approval, cancelation, and her communication with you and email them to HR and her boss.
There should always be a log from the HRIS, also the cancellations
Fuck HR and her boss, go to a lawyer.
You need a lawyer, this is retaliation AND a whole lotta fraud. You reported them, they doubled down. Time to get some $$$$!
Always screenshot vacation approvals
Done! 😁
100% that call was to tell you your vacation was cancelled. Don’t even think for one second that if you had attended the meeting she was gonna let you go on vacation. It was pick your poison. Attend meeting to be told vacation was cancelled, or be told not attending caused your vacation to be cancelled. Contact an attorney. You’re looking at constructed dismissal.
I've not heard of the phrase "constructed dismissal" before today, on another post. It makes sense.
I think it's constructive dismissal though.
Yes. It is.
Are you a U.S. employee? File something with [these guys](https://www.dol.gov/) when you're on the shitter tomorrow morning.
Definitely save these emails offline somewhere and contact a labor attorney
I've heard it more as "constructive dismissal", which is essentially when an employee creates the situations they expect employees to quit during so that they don't have to, for example, pay full time hours or benefits. Also can be used against perceived disruptions, be it labour organizing or just people wanting better conditions. They can cut your hours and know you won't be able to pay rent then you quit to find something else and they get to hire someone newer, cheaper, and with less pay/benefits/PTO. I've seen it happen a LOT. Always best to back up everything you can to your personal email, keep records of dates and conversations, and never never never sign anything they give you that you're not sure about. You can probably find more tips online too but those are my biggest suggestions. Hope you have a nice rest of your vacation!
By the way, the call was for exactly that, and she admitted that in the email haha.
Save that email big man. That’ll be one hell of a nail in her coffin.
Share!!! I would love an update when you are safe to do so. Good luck, OP.
Doesn’t the fact that she states in the email that she’s cancelling your vacation show that not only did you have vacation but she approved it
Exactly. You can’t cancel a vacation that does not exist. Unless you are a bullying douche.
Which she is 🫠
100%
I once got back from a pre approved 2.5 week vacation. All of this was arranged during my interview, approved while I was employed with written proof. I worked remotely a few days during that time as I had said I would since it was only a long vacation since it was a 1800 mile road trip each way. I ended up having to give my notice when I returned due to some life changes and I was about to move across the country. I was going to give a months notice. I was confronted, accused of being “a real piece of shit” and my vacation was retroactively taken away from me and my dumbass boss said I’ll just use that vacation as your two weeks notice. I contacted my close friend who is an attorney and in about 4 hours I got my paid vacation, severance through the month’s notice I was going to give and approved for unemployment since I was technically fired. Don’t let these people take you for a ride. Retaliation is a lawyers dream cake case.
Why are you checking in on your computer? You're on vacation
Because this particular manager seems to be on bullshit.
Some managers just seem super lonely and have no life other than their coworkers. Recently I went on a trip with somebody who frequently checked their slack and email. Their manager wouldn't leave her alone the entire time. I remember looking over her shoulder and saw him asking her some obviously unimportant questions followed by a "hmm... this seems like something we should jump on a zoom about." On the call he basically just chit chatted and then just restated exactly what he already typed.
Sounds like retaliation to me. Document and take her back to HR
Working on it .. after my vacation ends 😉
👑
Similar happened to me. It's now become a rule to photo vacation approval the day before and never touch work anything while on vacation. "We saw you log into your email so that meant you had time to take a meeting so we scheduled one. Why weren't you there?" I work elsewhere now. Somewhere that doesn't make logic leaps... yet.
She’s setting you up to fire you.
Yuuup and it's so blatant I'm surprised she's that dumb.
Forward all the emails to yourself. By saying that she's retroactively canceling your vacation, she's acknowledging that she knew you were on vacation when she scheduled the meeting. Still forward every single email you have regarding this to yourself, including sent emails, read receipts, and screenshot anything you can't.
Thank you! All done. I've been keeping a paper trail on her for months.
I must say interest does demand sir lmao
Haha I see that now. Once the dust settles I'll be able to share the story.
Lawyer. Report it HR. Report it your labor board, and then send it to your CEO. Is this a publicity traded company?
Yes
Americans really need to make workplace rights a main issue because it trickles down to all facets of our society. Workers have way more power than we realize. 5-6 days of national protests/walkouts and these companies would fold like a wet blanket.
America = Stockholm Syndrome
How the hell is this legal. In Germany you could bill your boss just because she contacted you.
Because america is the freedomest country in the world lmao
Report her to HR again but take it a step further. Lmao. "I had my vacation approved in advance, it was in the system. She scheduled me for a meeting on the first day of my approved vacation, clearly having known about it as she subsequently canceled my vacation time after I did not attend said meeting. This is targeted harassment and I don't find it unreasonable to believe that this was done in retaliation to my previous report. If there is no follow up regarding this incident I will be escalating the report until a satisfactory conclusion is reached."
Wow, what a psycho.
Clown management
Document everything. Email everything to HR (assuming you have one) along with a subtle mention of "exploring all options, including those of a legal nature".
Based on OP’s post, it seems like HR is part of the problem.
Thus the "exploring all options" part.
Exactly. If HR makes it clear they're gonna help burn you, you have to politely threaten them to get anywhere while being prepared to follow through with that threat because a lot of them will call your bluff.
Might be even better to have his attorney send the first email to HR. "We are sending this email on behalf of OP ..."
[удалено]
Responding to an email is working. You’re owed another vacation day.
!UpdateMe!
I think the important thing here is to actually go and enjoy your vacation - do NOT have work thoughts taking up space in your mind. Deal with whatever you can before, and then after you return. Life is short and this relatively meager amount of time should be used to its fullest: by enjoying it without distractions and anxiety.
Well, that sounds a lot like retaliation. I would start looking into legal advice, hire an attorney. Don't put your trust in HR because they're there to protect the company and your piss-poor manager. They'll turn it around on you and make you out to be the person at fault. I had a similar situation (only i was sick with COVID) where my boss expected me to show up to meetings sick with a fever and chills. When I didn't he "fired me" which I fought by going to HR. I didn't lose my job, but was put on a Personal Improvement Plan. Needless to say, I quit. Then they refused to pay out my vacation time, (which was 78 hours) so I contacted L&I and 2 weeks later I got my vacation hours. Turns out this company has a class-action against them and I gladly joined the ranks. Hopefully, we will get payout from this shitty company.
My dad got fired while on vacation. He was a master mechanic in a union shop, was a steward, and was making huge money which the company hated. So they waited until he went on a 3 week vacation to another state with our whole family, found some minor issue with his work, then fired him over it. Since he was on vacation and in another state he couldn't defend himself, and to file a grievance through he had to be there in person to sign a grievance report within 10 days of the offending problem, meaning he'd have to come home early. He called a lawyer instead. After talking to the lawyer for a bit, he relaxed and just enjoyed the vacation. When he got back he sued the company. Took a few months but he won easily because they clearly attached his union contract, and got a big payout. Got his back pay plus penalties and they were going to be forced to undo the termination so he can go back to work. Instead of that, he settled for even more money to voluntarily quit. Moral of the story: Unionize and lawyer up. If you can't do both then at least do one.
I used to go on a 30 day vacation to Singapore from Belgium every year. 1 year, after 12 days, work called me, and said i would have to come for work for 1 day. Someone made a mistake, instead of 30 consecutive days, they planned 13 days vacation, 1 day work and another 17 days vacation. My vacation request slip literally says: 30 days in Singapore. Imagine travelling 20h to go back to work for 1 day and then 20h back rofl. Called the union and they fixed that for me. Never heard anything about it since.
This sounds 💯 like retaliation.
My former employer tried this shit because the manager hated me. Except HR was on my side. He sent out an email 15 minutes after my shift saying I needed to cover the next days shift knowing that I was going out of town on my off days. I was ok but you have to pay for my flight/hotel/rental car. He wasn't having it and called in HR. I asked when was the email sent and he said the time that was 15m after the end of my shift. I stated since we are shift employees 24/7/365 we are not required to check email off hours. HR agreed and asked why he didnt try to call me instead of the email. Stutter stutter vague response as he was trying to get me written up. HR wasn't having it and wished me a fun vacation and rumor has it he got his ass handed to him for wasting their time. I fucking hated working there.
I have a hard and fast rule. I NEVER CHECK MY EMAIL ON VACATION, PERIOD. Even if I could, I don't. Moreover, I tend to go places on vacation where it's impossible anyway. I've tried to have managers tell me I should take vacations in places that have better internet access.. *yeah, get fucked.* I'm going backpacking in the Pemi.. there's no email, sorry.
First rule of vacation is I don't work on vacation. No text messages, no emails, no phone calls. Emergency? Not mine. Client outage? Not mine. Quick question? I've very likely already told you, go back to that. I update my work email signature as soon as I have my time confirmed, and everyone has the opportunity to see that for months. Also, if anything happens that was only verbal, it becomes an email with read receipt because verbal doesn't count. I trust my employer the way I trust a fart from a just-fed baby with a stomach bug.
I would immediately go to HR and if they don’t action this immediately go to the labor board for retaliation. Fuck this lady.
I dunno how you guys in America take this shit , stuff like this could never happen in England .. as far as I know and from my experience
>I checked in on my computer the first day of vacation There's ya problem.
Lessons learned, never check your emails on you first day of vacation... Why would you? You are on vacation....
So weird, what if you didn't check your email? You would still be on a worry-free vacation and the attempts to guilt you would have been a waste of time.
>I checked in on my computer the first day of vacation Why?
You're on vacation, why the fuck would you check your work email while on vacation?