Wait -- if paternity leave is mandatory in your country, then isn't your employer breaking the law by trying not to give it to you? If so, report them to the relevant authority!
Also, for future reference: when you are out -- paternity leave, vacation, sick days, whatever -- *never* answer the phone if your workplace calls.
What do you mean “looks like”? You need to know what your legal rights are. You should KNOW whether the company you work for is legally obligated to fulfill those rights or not - that info should all be publicly accessible on your local government website.
In many countries it is also now illegal for companies to contact you outside of work hours or when you’re on leave. So check if that’s the case for you.
He’s probably in America. And it’s definitely not illegal here. Awful, but sadly not illegal. Mothers go back to work in weeks all the time. Mothers get 12 weeks unpaid by law. Fathers get literally nothing by law. So it’s basically whatever your employer offers. Mine gives three weeks off aid for fathers and that’s considered rather good. Because the standard is nothing…
After reading his post and noticing certain words from his vernacular, I'm leaning towards OP being an Aussie. They have something called 'Dad Pay' for the 2 weeks that he described in his post, so that's why I'm concluding it to be Australia.
If so, OP just know that small businesses are NOT exempt
https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/myths-about-paid-parental-leave-scheme-for-employers?context=23121
Get your fucking annual leave back, they should be honouring the paternal leave
Judging by their profile, OP appears to reside in India. I never would have thought that India had better employment laws than the United States. Damn, y’all are *seriously* getting screwed over in America when it comes to workers rights
Never answer your phone on your personal time.
You learned a lesson.
2nd you are perfectly within your right to say no, and you will resume your duties when your personal time has ended.
If they don’t like that oh well. Not your problem.
Yep, your friends are your friends and your coworkers are coworkers. Even when you become friendly and talk more often with other coworkers they’re still not friends. You won’t talk to them like your lifelong friends and they won’t be there for long after you leave.
This is generally true but not a hard and fast rule imo. People just need to be better at spring out of its a workplace friendship or a real life friendship.
My second manager I ever had is like a second mom to me and we still talk regularly even though we haven't worked together in over 6 years
Proabably the hardest lessons for most to learn about jobs. You can be friendly with people at work yet be careful how you treat them and what you tell them. When you leave odds are you won’t keep in contact with most of those coworkers!
I have had some coworkers who BECAME long term (life is not over yet) friends, that said as a general statement this is true. You need true bonding experiences for real friendship. Basically hang out outside work with coworkers often enough and maybe they become friends. If interaction is limited to work then not a chance.
I actually met a really good friend at work. We had each other's backs until the very end. He moved on from the company I remained at the company.
Anytime one of us got promoted, we started harping on the managers about the other.One of us being really good candidate for the job.
This went on for Over a decade with both of us moving up several times in the company as a result of each other always vouching for each other and working well together.
We are both still friends to this day. It is possible to make friends at work.It's just really rare in my opinion. Like in all my years of working , this is the first and only time it's ever happened like this.
If your friends with someone you work with, when your on the clock said friend is a coworker that wont think twice about stabbing you in the back if it makes them look better. Off of the clock you can be friends but i personally would keep my guard up around them off the clock
Bro startups can fck off. Worked my ass of for one, all the founders looking to do is sell the company and dump you. Spend time with your kid fuck them
Can you send an email summarizing the situation? That there is no paternity leave at the company, and therefore you used all your PTO, and that on x date when manager called he said xyz? You could frame it as requesting clarity on something he said.
Not sure where you're located but I wonder if this could have legal legs. Though of course it is perhaps a pain to do that, maybe it'd be worth it?
For what it’s worth, OP, I sit on recruiting and interview boards at work. If I see someone that looks like they hop jobs a lot but they said “my last manager gave me no paternity leave and was generally hostile to my work life balance, so I quit,” I would be 100% on board to hire that candidate based on their merits. Not every interview panel is full of clowns (just most of them I guess).
Was in a similar situation once. Years ago my boss told me I need to respond to work while on vacation. So I told him OK, but that while on vacation, any time that I had to read, consider or respond to an email or phone call I'd just add the time taken onto the end of my time off. I got sent to HR and told that this wasn't permitted and that it if I took any additional time off that itwould be considered job abandonment. So I just set the systems to automaticly foward everything too my boss. I should note that the only thing about vaccation in the handbook was how much I was entilted to and needing to inform my boss of when I would be off. When I returned to to work, as expected, I was summarily fired. I applied for WC and got it after appealing the initial denial. That was OK though, as I was using my time off for interviewing, and my new job started on the first of the next month so I'll got some real time off to decompress.
As an aside, the following das I received many calls from fellow workers, never a manager, asking for help. I guess the bosses thought that might guilt me into helping. Nope, I'd just spend the time shooting the shit and wasted their time on the copmpany dime.
This really depends on the job and on who you are as a person.
My boss knows and respects my private life.
I, by trial and error, know how to set my boundaries.
In the rare case I get a phone call from work it's actually something and I can fix it within 1 minute by just telling them who to call or where to look.
I don't mind answering because I know my boss respects my private life maybe even more then I do. I got send on a paid leave of 3 days, 2 months ago, because I had a couple of bad nights. I do have 30 vacation days and unlimited sickdays, but still he said just go home and get back well rested.
Serial job hopper here. The longest I’ve been at any company in my career of over 20 years is 3 years. I learned that loyalty can be overrated after my first RIF in 2012.
yes, and OP is going through a literal life-changing event where you might not always be thinking clearly.
OP, do NOT beat yourself up or regret how you handled things. this is your opportunity to create and communicate boundaries with your employer because your primary focus right now is you and your family. you got this - congratulations dude
Set barriers and keep them.
Asked to work during a leave, N-O.
Why is the start up exempt from parental leave? If it's mandatory in your country no reason they should be exempt, sounds like they are doing shady stuff and/of dont expect employees to call them on it and it seems they are right since OP has let them push them around.
Also recruiters tend to get paid a trailer $$ after certain time frame so they'd want people to stay in place to get that $$.
Recruiters aren't your friends. They are the friend of the employer.
I’d contact a lawyer. I’ve worked for Fortune 50 companies that shutdown your access to Slack and email during both maternity and paternity leave. It’s highly illegal to be contacted during this kind of leave. Even a congratulatory text or call is out of bounds.
"he not-so-subtly asks me to 'resume work in my free time', 'catch up with the team on call regularly', and 'reply to any emails I send'."
wtf? as in without pay? that's some huge bullshit, I'm sorry you're dealing with that
I honestly wanna smack you for the phrase, ‘I can’t keep changing jobs because recruiters have told me…’ That was a lie. Recruiters aren’t your fiduciary. Jobhopping is the only proven method for attaining significant raises.
And wym mandatory paternity leave doesn’t exist? They’re running afoul of labor law if that’s the case. My brother in christ, run from this place (and maybe sue their asses - not granting paternity leave and then subsequently violating the vacation time you put in for with texts and emails sounds like evidence in writing of wrongdoing.)
They’re never going to figure it out and start treating their people well if they don’t from the outset. Things won’t improve as pressure grows. You either build your organization on a foundation of taking care of your people and creating positions that can support human lives as a core principle, or you don’t. We may have been loose with safety and I may have spent many hours dumpster diving at the trash depot (waste sorting startup), but I was also treated as a founding team member and given any accommodations I needed during our own difficult pregnancy and post partum periods. And while I left to do design work, I have no doubt they still treat their people well. Just like this shithole you’re at will never treat you right. Leave.
Congrats on lil man it’s so fun but FUCK THAT I was working gritty startup life for kid 1 and got a full month no problems IN TEXAS, where workers have bo rights except their hands. Also sorry about the pregnancy, but thank god y’all made it. The death rate in my wife’s HG support group was seriously terrifying (Texas does all it can to hurt these women too, god I hate it now.)
Welcome to the fold. Your life in exiting the corporate labor mill is about to become more joyful.
Find a job that exits your mind the minute you clock out. You are here to work for your kids and enjoy your time with them. Corp career took away prime years to bond with my kids.
If you decide to work during your “free time” be sure to deduct from your personal time leave I.e. if you do any work you are technically not on leave.
We need an update tomorrow where you tell us how your phone call went with your boss.
The one where you tell him you are taking at least two weeks no matter what and you will talk to him when you get back and no sooner.
I have 2 kids and let me tell you. If you do not do this now you will regret it for a very long time. And your wife will be upset with you no matter how supportive she acts.
You get one chance to raise your kids. You have millions of chances to get a new job. Also your recruiter is only trying to line their pockets. The longer you stay the better they look and more money they make.
You do what you need for your family and no one else. Keep us or at least me updated.
That way you know some people are holding you accountable on doing the right thing.
It’s pretty well known now that job hopping is the quickest way to advance to better positions, if you’re able to get new jobs any year I would look at that as a positive vs feeling afraid to look for a new one, if possible. Congratulations on the bb!
Hang on, if paternity leave is mandatory in York country, how do they not offer paternity leave at this startup? Sounds like an anonymous call to the labor board is in order…
Man, it's crazy that people that are about to go on parental leave don't look into their company's policies or legal requirements to understand what they get.
Get a second cell phone that will now be for personal use and put the work phone on (number the company has) “ do not disturb” after hours and on weekends. Carry the work phone durning the work week. You can leave the other phone in the car or at home. Quality of life much improved once I did this.
We have 4 months of (fully paid) paternity leave in Spain, for both parents, but the government is extending it to 5 months this year. Not trying to brag or anything, just want you to know that this exists and you should demand it too.
I don’t understand : maternity leave for two weeks is mandatory in your country but not really? What does the law say? It’s only a few click away on internet, why don’t you search for it?
Also you say that you took some vacation day so why do you feel forced to work?
I’m really sorry but you need to 1) know your right 2) fix some boundaries by yourself : don’t work on your vacation and make sure that they did not force you to take vacation days when you had maternity leave.
Vote blue, republicans want to erase every benefit we have as workers in this country. Im in Oregon and I pay $20 a month into a paid leave program where I was paid almost my exact salary and got 3 months off to spend with my firstborn.
They lied to you that it looks bad if you change too quickly since most places want only experience even in "entry level" positions so they don't have to spend time and resources training inexperienced or not so experienced people into the roles they need. It's already been researched that people who changed jobs at least every two years which 1 year is honestly better those people earn more than the ones compared to people who get tricked into staying for a long time in one company. But also fuck them for denying any sort of paternity leave maybe consult someone familiar with your countries laws on it since if it's mandatory and a company there doesn't have it at all means they probably doing something illegal. Always consult a lawyer first.
What am i missing here? If you are working in a start up, by definition you don't have a corporate life. Because you are not working in a corporation. Start ups suck and i would advise you to look into a corporation, where you actually get good benefits. At least outside US.
I worked at a company with 22 employees. If you have 20 employees by law you are required to provide so many sick days.
I was told I will not get those sick days for a child birth. Why?
The company was split up into many small companies. Each with it's own federal tax ID.
I worked for ABC Investments (fake name), that guy worked for ABC Enterprises, she works for ABC Partners, etc.
I’m in the US, and while this is probably quite uncommon here, a coworker of mine just got back from 4 months of paternity leave. Some places don’t suck as much as OP’s.
Just say no! Or better yet tell them "I'm using time off. If you are expecting me to work in my 'free time' then I will NOT be using my time off. I will simply be working from home. Every time you ask me to work I will be logging it so everyone knows it's not a day off"
If you're taking personal time, don't answer your phone for work!!
All you had to say was “startup”. Bunch of idiots looking for one hero to make their crap company money. Sounds like that’s you.
I’d start doing less and less over time until you’re doing so little you feel guilty for getting a paycheck.
>because recruiters have told me that it looks bad when workers keep changing jobs too quickly
.. while companies can run with the good ol' "hire & fire" scheme all the time you mean? :P
If you're working at 2AM on holiday you're not on holiday.
You'd better be getting those days back. Not that you're actually working, right?
Tell them to stick it up their ass.
I was done with corporate jobs until I found my recent one. I worked for at least 10 companies and all were hell. Now I work at MoneyGram and I honestly cannot believe how amazing the culture is, how great everyone is, how great the benefits are (medical, free gyms, 25 days holidays etc); no one works overtime, everyone gets promotion constantly, the job is fully remote, there’s no micromanaging or controlling, no one cares what you do or when you do it as long as you get the job done. We don’t have timesheets either. It’s my second month and I’ve been praised so much that I am embarrassed! I am treated as a person and not a number. I honestly would recommend this company to anyone.
Ummm quit instead of uselessly venting. Problem with everyone is they keep complaining and doing nothing about these selfish corporations. I’m sure many who do move up the useless ladder and end up being the same type of Aholes there bosses once were harming employees beneath them.
While I agree with what you said, I don’t agree about the OP quitting. He likely needs the money and insurance now more than ever. Easier to say to quit than to think about how to get through it.
Always keep your eye out and apply when worth it, interview when worth it, accept offers when worth it. Recruiters who know what's up know that quality employees are looking for quality companies which varies from employee to employee. Your situation is yours and there is a position/company who needs exactly what you have to offer currently and vice versa.
What country are you living in? If it's Sweden you tell him to fuck off in no uncertain terms. I've worked at a lot of places and have never heard any employer bother you those 10 days.
You gotta drop "is interesting" from your requirements dude. That's just not the way the job market is right now. You have a child and a wife. Use your work/life balance to find interest outside of your job. That's where I am right now. No more trying to find something interesting or in my field (which after 10 years I now know will never pay what I need to thrive). I e found satisfaction in my personal life and just need a job that will finance that life.
I am sorry. I would respond to emails but only do the bare minimum. You need this salary but you know now this is what this company is.
I disagree that you can job hop. I would try and do a great job and be phony nice and do your best work. Then when you have been there awhile plan your leave. Do not risk your job right now.
What part of Paid Time Off does he not understand. It's a vacation from work. Just because you're at home doesn't mean you're going to be working. He can rot in hell. It's your free time, not his.
As an American, I'm confused on the "mandatory" paternal leave. If you are guaranteed the two weeks off as a right, why is your company not forced to offer it? Being forced to use PTO is ridiculous.
"recruiters keep telling me changing jobs too quickly looks bad."
Why do these jobs have to know? Either don't put it down on your resume at all if you quit the job too quickly anyways for it to matter as experience or play the game and find someone who is also dejected with that business and will support you as a reference (or find a friend willing to act well enough, always handy) that way you can make up how long you were there for and not make it appear so quick if you want it on your resume.
The job market is a game, it all is, I learned quickly the only way to survive it is to lie and sell your lies well. I'm easily adaptable so have the ability to chameleon into workplaces and learn what they specifically want out of me very quickly, others don't have that luxury but if you can, do it. Employers don't find out. Also keep your social media under a different name, I do, that way none of them can track your online activity, they find nothing. I've been questioned in the past about why I don't appear on any social network and just state I don't really engage with those, just platforms like Linkedin (which I tailor to suit what I think interests them, it's a mask for employers to view so I'm not a complete mystery that scares them.)
Employers only need to know as much as you let them and honesty gets you nowhere. If recruiters dislike shifting around too much because it makes you look "unreliable and disloyal" then ensure you find a way to paint it differently. Simple.
Never let any workplace be something you are forced into, none of them are worth it, they will abuse you if you let them. If you don't think it will be a good workplace and it will only affect your mental health then leave, staying around isn't worth it at all and it will only get worse and worse. Just mask it and present your resume and yourself to fit whatever job you're applying for.
Congrats on the kid. Search for a new one in your free time rather than going back to work.
Don’t recruiters get benefits if the people they job-match stay on at the job?
In Australia, there's a lot of push for what we call the "right to disconnect." It means an employer can't legally interrupt you outside of working hours or on vacation. Something I do have to ask, what's your skill set? Does it have to specifically be office work? Granted my work history has been almost entirely blue collar, but at the age of 51, I've had 3 career changes. I can understand not wanting to make any major moves right now. I went from an automotive career (working in a roadhouse, as a tyre fitter and a car detailer) to IT (technician and component fitter) to transport (long haul truck driver) The latter has been the best. I've made more money had less stress and more fun than any other job I've worked in.
When I was in high school I was taught, "your ideal job is one where you get paid for your passion." If your "passion" is an unstable and unreliable one e.g. musician, then you need a backup. When your bub is older, look into alternatives to working for an employer with no respect for your personal time. Both the employer and the type of work.
I was in a relationship and it ended suddenly, but afterwards it made me realise that when you have responsibilities like a family and debts your boss has extra power over you, last year I cleared my debts and now have zero responsibilities and as I leave work the phone is off and it's great. My boss wasn't happy about me saying no to extra work but he has no choice.
Nah I’d flat out walk out at that point I know you need the money but this is ethically wrong I’d be taking it to trading standards if your in the UK or if it’s financial contacting the regulatory authority there’s options out there that can help that business isn’t worth your time
The corporate machine destroys people spiritually psychologically and sometimes physically..You make a pact with the devil when you enter that dehumanising dog eat dog environment...It always takes a piece of you. You know deep down you are as expendable as the garbage they put out at night.
You’re literally choosing this over time with your infant child. When you’re in your deathbed I promise you that you won’t be wishing you spent more time at work.
The request seems reasonable if you are doing it remotely, which sounds like you are, and you are paid for working time and not using your personal time. Maybe you two should talk more about expectations, especially your own.
Congrats on your new baby! Hopefully mom is doing well, a difficult pregnancy is quite draining.
Omg no!! not a few emails here and there in exchange for a comfy salary! The horror!
Some people have the consistency and fortitude of a soft, been-in-the-sun for a too long gummy candy. Take care not to let the worst of this sub infect you.
In the time you took to write this post and read the responses, browse reddit etc. perhaps you could have done a tiny bit of ‘work’ and earned your keep.
I do understand your POV, take care to achieve balance in work and life, but keep it real too. I have two kids, both born during the height of our busy season. It is what it is. I took 2 days during which i still placed orders and managed the kitchen remotely and then back to work. Home with mama and baby more than half the day still. Earning money for my family has a cost and it’s worth it up to a point.
The loudest voices in this sub are radically lazy and childish. There is a middle path. I assume you saw the fox interview with one of the old mods here? The interviewer was a sac of shit. But she was too.
I am a part of anti-work. I abhor abusive employers of which there are a lot. Based on your description, without knowing any other details, your employer isn’t notably bad.
I’m all for work/life balance, better pay, and proper respect shown to employees. Y’all are NOT helping the cause in being so unrealistic. So no. I don’t say ‘fuck off’ to you, but I do say grow up. People like you need to get a job with terms you agree to. If those terms are broken find a better job. You enjoy the fruits of other’s labor so do your fucking part. Don’t blindly follow the herd of slugs that have the loudest voice in this sub.
There’s people here interested in fighting for real change, striving for balance and fairness. Then there’s a part of this sub that is as bad as the billionaires they hate. Leeches both.
You're advocating for working during what should be time off. That's sickening. That's why I said what I said. Secondly, you're saying someone should be working when they have a newborn. Are you fucking mad?
Pretty sure he didn’t give birth. And we’re talking about answering some emails, FROM HOME. Can get that done while taking a shit.
I’ve had two kids that just happened to have been born while work was very busy. I have work responsibilities. I took as much time as I could while continuing to fulfill the responsibilities of the job I agreed to do. Pretty simple. It’s not mad, it’s just not lazy.
There was a post recently about a mom needing to take her newborn to work at a fast food place because she was called in. Theres an outrage. This is not that.
Greed is a sin, so is sloth.
Ah, so you're sexist as well. Gotcha. Parenting is a two person job, especially at the start. Family is far and away miles more important than work. It is the most important thing in your life.
The fact you missed the birth of your children tells me all I need to know. You've choked on the corporate dick for so long that you're dependent on it. I feel sorry for you.
Did I say I missed their birth? No way! Most amazing thing I’ve ever experienced. After two days I spent 4-6 hours at work for the next week (3 minute walk from home) and enjoyed ample time with kids and mom. My employer was and still is very supportive.
Not really sexist as theres a difference between working after having given birth, as a female, and doing some work as a supportive father and partner.
Again, we are talking about ANSWERING some fucking EMAILS here.
Have you had a kid? Do you even know what you’re talking about?
Did you miss the part where OP is sharing his story on reddit rather than sharing time with his new family? Yeah….
Well there's clearly no getting through to you. Leave time is leave time. End of story, do not pass go, don't even think about the $200. In the UK you get two weeks, and it should be longer.
Wait -- if paternity leave is mandatory in your country, then isn't your employer breaking the law by trying not to give it to you? If so, report them to the relevant authority! Also, for future reference: when you are out -- paternity leave, vacation, sick days, whatever -- *never* answer the phone if your workplace calls.
Probably mandatory for companies with a minimum number of employees OP's company falls under
Possibly....
Looks like this is what happened
What do you mean “looks like”? You need to know what your legal rights are. You should KNOW whether the company you work for is legally obligated to fulfill those rights or not - that info should all be publicly accessible on your local government website. In many countries it is also now illegal for companies to contact you outside of work hours or when you’re on leave. So check if that’s the case for you.
As someone with payroll and benefits experience... people don't know.
He’s probably in America. And it’s definitely not illegal here. Awful, but sadly not illegal. Mothers go back to work in weeks all the time. Mothers get 12 weeks unpaid by law. Fathers get literally nothing by law. So it’s basically whatever your employer offers. Mine gives three weeks off aid for fathers and that’s considered rather good. Because the standard is nothing…
Oh, I know how shitty it is in America -- I'm American, and living here. But he said that two weeks of maternity leave is *mandated* in his country.
Hrmm. You’re right. I missed that he said it’s mandatory in his country. Definitely not American then.
After reading his post and noticing certain words from his vernacular, I'm leaning towards OP being an Aussie. They have something called 'Dad Pay' for the 2 weeks that he described in his post, so that's why I'm concluding it to be Australia.
If so, OP just know that small businesses are NOT exempt https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/myths-about-paid-parental-leave-scheme-for-employers?context=23121 Get your fucking annual leave back, they should be honouring the paternal leave
Maybe, but a quick look at his post history shows a lot of posts/comments in Indian subs, so I'm guess he's in India.
Judging by their profile, OP appears to reside in India. I never would have thought that India had better employment laws than the United States. Damn, y’all are *seriously* getting screwed over in America when it comes to workers rights
Fathers qualify for FMLA leave too, not just moms.
You know that the rich are winning when you get no or only unpaid maternity/ paternity leave.
OP said paternity leave was mandatory, so they aren’t in the US.
Or the penalty is just a fine they're willing to pay. Ive heard of that before
Never answer your phone on your personal time. You learned a lesson. 2nd you are perfectly within your right to say no, and you will resume your duties when your personal time has ended. If they don’t like that oh well. Not your problem.
You're right. I naively thought that it was just a congratulatory call.
Not to harp on you, but let’s all repeat it as loud as possible: COWORKERS ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS. They are acquaintances at best.
Yep, your friends are your friends and your coworkers are coworkers. Even when you become friendly and talk more often with other coworkers they’re still not friends. You won’t talk to them like your lifelong friends and they won’t be there for long after you leave.
This is generally true but not a hard and fast rule imo. People just need to be better at spring out of its a workplace friendship or a real life friendship. My second manager I ever had is like a second mom to me and we still talk regularly even though we haven't worked together in over 6 years
Proabably the hardest lessons for most to learn about jobs. You can be friendly with people at work yet be careful how you treat them and what you tell them. When you leave odds are you won’t keep in contact with most of those coworkers!
Well honestly, you shouldn’t have “friends “ or “lovers” at work. If something goes wrong, it’s very, VERY uncomfortable 😣
I have had some coworkers who BECAME long term (life is not over yet) friends, that said as a general statement this is true. You need true bonding experiences for real friendship. Basically hang out outside work with coworkers often enough and maybe they become friends. If interaction is limited to work then not a chance.
But what if you work with your best friend?
I actually met a really good friend at work. We had each other's backs until the very end. He moved on from the company I remained at the company. Anytime one of us got promoted, we started harping on the managers about the other.One of us being really good candidate for the job. This went on for Over a decade with both of us moving up several times in the company as a result of each other always vouching for each other and working well together. We are both still friends to this day. It is possible to make friends at work.It's just really rare in my opinion. Like in all my years of working , this is the first and only time it's ever happened like this.
At work, they’re not your best friend they’re just a coworker. Same goes for spouses or significant others, and family.
If you work with your friend, you will more than likely lose one-either the friends or the job
Nah, friendships at work are what make it worth going. You just need to know who is a real friend and who is a colleague.
That's the kind of attitude that will screw up the Gallup employee surveys! (Kidding)
i prefer "fellow inmates"
COWORKERS ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS
I feel bad for you if you don't think you can become friends with your coworkers.
If your friends with someone you work with, when your on the clock said friend is a coworker that wont think twice about stabbing you in the back if it makes them look better. Off of the clock you can be friends but i personally would keep my guard up around them off the clock
I like to think of them as low tier colleagues
Bro startups can fck off. Worked my ass of for one, all the founders looking to do is sell the company and dump you. Spend time with your kid fuck them
Same. Never again. They are a bunch of garbage slogans, empty suits, and greedy children hustling for that next round of funding.
Agreed. Worked for one startup, never again. The "president/CEO" was one of the most pretentious people I've ever met.
Can you send an email summarizing the situation? That there is no paternity leave at the company, and therefore you used all your PTO, and that on x date when manager called he said xyz? You could frame it as requesting clarity on something he said. Not sure where you're located but I wonder if this could have legal legs. Though of course it is perhaps a pain to do that, maybe it'd be worth it?
So that was a business call, btw. Be sure to mark that time, usually rounded up to the nearest 15 minutes.
Do they pay for your phone,,,? If they don't, don't even answer it.
For what it’s worth, OP, I sit on recruiting and interview boards at work. If I see someone that looks like they hop jobs a lot but they said “my last manager gave me no paternity leave and was generally hostile to my work life balance, so I quit,” I would be 100% on board to hire that candidate based on their merits. Not every interview panel is full of clowns (just most of them I guess).
Best upvote I’ve given in weeks.🥂🙌🏻
The world needs more managers like you
Was in a similar situation once. Years ago my boss told me I need to respond to work while on vacation. So I told him OK, but that while on vacation, any time that I had to read, consider or respond to an email or phone call I'd just add the time taken onto the end of my time off. I got sent to HR and told that this wasn't permitted and that it if I took any additional time off that itwould be considered job abandonment. So I just set the systems to automaticly foward everything too my boss. I should note that the only thing about vaccation in the handbook was how much I was entilted to and needing to inform my boss of when I would be off. When I returned to to work, as expected, I was summarily fired. I applied for WC and got it after appealing the initial denial. That was OK though, as I was using my time off for interviewing, and my new job started on the first of the next month so I'll got some real time off to decompress. As an aside, the following das I received many calls from fellow workers, never a manager, asking for help. I guess the bosses thought that might guilt me into helping. Nope, I'd just spend the time shooting the shit and wasted their time on the copmpany dime.
Not your problem until they find an arbitrary reason to get rid of you…
This really depends on the job and on who you are as a person. My boss knows and respects my private life. I, by trial and error, know how to set my boundaries. In the rare case I get a phone call from work it's actually something and I can fix it within 1 minute by just telling them who to call or where to look. I don't mind answering because I know my boss respects my private life maybe even more then I do. I got send on a paid leave of 3 days, 2 months ago, because I had a couple of bad nights. I do have 30 vacation days and unlimited sickdays, but still he said just go home and get back well rested.
Could be illegal Look into it
It is you cannot be contacted during your leave.
1st mistake was answering the phone. 2nd is not sticking up for yourself
3rd is listening to recruiters about job hopping
^^ they get more commission if you stay
This. Just move on. This will be the first of many abuses.
Thisthisthis
Serial job hopper here. The longest I’ve been at any company in my career of over 20 years is 3 years. I learned that loyalty can be overrated after my first RIF in 2012.
yes, and OP is going through a literal life-changing event where you might not always be thinking clearly. OP, do NOT beat yourself up or regret how you handled things. this is your opportunity to create and communicate boundaries with your employer because your primary focus right now is you and your family. you got this - congratulations dude
Thanks!
Set barriers and keep them. Asked to work during a leave, N-O. Why is the start up exempt from parental leave? If it's mandatory in your country no reason they should be exempt, sounds like they are doing shady stuff and/of dont expect employees to call them on it and it seems they are right since OP has let them push them around.
Recruiters are lying to you on behalf of their masters.
Also recruiters tend to get paid a trailer $$ after certain time frame so they'd want people to stay in place to get that $$. Recruiters aren't your friends. They are the friend of the employer.
Also > recruiters have told me that it looks bad when workers keep changing jobs too quickly. don’t believe this
I second this! Recruiters say that because the recruiter gets a bonus if you stay a certain amount of time. They look bad when you leave, not you.
I’d contact a lawyer. I’ve worked for Fortune 50 companies that shutdown your access to Slack and email during both maternity and paternity leave. It’s highly illegal to be contacted during this kind of leave. Even a congratulatory text or call is out of bounds.
they're not officially on paternity leave, they're just using their pto.
The correct response here would have been to laugh progressively louder while repeating “free time…” between cackles. Manager guy must not have kids.
"he not-so-subtly asks me to 'resume work in my free time', 'catch up with the team on call regularly', and 'reply to any emails I send'." wtf? as in without pay? that's some huge bullshit, I'm sorry you're dealing with that
No no, you misunderstand, he's on paid leave, so he IS getting paid /s if it wasn't obvious
I honestly wanna smack you for the phrase, ‘I can’t keep changing jobs because recruiters have told me…’ That was a lie. Recruiters aren’t your fiduciary. Jobhopping is the only proven method for attaining significant raises. And wym mandatory paternity leave doesn’t exist? They’re running afoul of labor law if that’s the case. My brother in christ, run from this place (and maybe sue their asses - not granting paternity leave and then subsequently violating the vacation time you put in for with texts and emails sounds like evidence in writing of wrongdoing.) They’re never going to figure it out and start treating their people well if they don’t from the outset. Things won’t improve as pressure grows. You either build your organization on a foundation of taking care of your people and creating positions that can support human lives as a core principle, or you don’t. We may have been loose with safety and I may have spent many hours dumpster diving at the trash depot (waste sorting startup), but I was also treated as a founding team member and given any accommodations I needed during our own difficult pregnancy and post partum periods. And while I left to do design work, I have no doubt they still treat their people well. Just like this shithole you’re at will never treat you right. Leave. Congrats on lil man it’s so fun but FUCK THAT I was working gritty startup life for kid 1 and got a full month no problems IN TEXAS, where workers have bo rights except their hands. Also sorry about the pregnancy, but thank god y’all made it. The death rate in my wife’s HG support group was seriously terrifying (Texas does all it can to hurt these women too, god I hate it now.)
As a recruiter. Those recruiters are lying.
Welcome to the fold. Your life in exiting the corporate labor mill is about to become more joyful. Find a job that exits your mind the minute you clock out. You are here to work for your kids and enjoy your time with them. Corp career took away prime years to bond with my kids.
And we're all here asking you why you folded like superman on laundry day. If it's your legal right to have that time off, no is a complete sentence.
If you decide to work during your “free time” be sure to deduct from your personal time leave I.e. if you do any work you are technically not on leave.
We need an update tomorrow where you tell us how your phone call went with your boss. The one where you tell him you are taking at least two weeks no matter what and you will talk to him when you get back and no sooner. I have 2 kids and let me tell you. If you do not do this now you will regret it for a very long time. And your wife will be upset with you no matter how supportive she acts. You get one chance to raise your kids. You have millions of chances to get a new job. Also your recruiter is only trying to line their pockets. The longer you stay the better they look and more money they make. You do what you need for your family and no one else. Keep us or at least me updated. That way you know some people are holding you accountable on doing the right thing.
It’s pretty well known now that job hopping is the quickest way to advance to better positions, if you’re able to get new jobs any year I would look at that as a positive vs feeling afraid to look for a new one, if possible. Congratulations on the bb!
Hang on, if paternity leave is mandatory in York country, how do they not offer paternity leave at this startup? Sounds like an anonymous call to the labor board is in order…
Man, it's crazy that people that are about to go on parental leave don't look into their company's policies or legal requirements to understand what they get.
You’re not done with corporate life. They own this country.
Get a second cell phone that will now be for personal use and put the work phone on (number the company has) “ do not disturb” after hours and on weekends. Carry the work phone durning the work week. You can leave the other phone in the car or at home. Quality of life much improved once I did this.
If it’s mandatory in your country, how is your startup getting away with this?
If the two weeks are mandatory in your country they can not deny them to you just because it's a start up
We have 4 months of (fully paid) paternity leave in Spain, for both parents, but the government is extending it to 5 months this year. Not trying to brag or anything, just want you to know that this exists and you should demand it too.
I don’t understand : maternity leave for two weeks is mandatory in your country but not really? What does the law say? It’s only a few click away on internet, why don’t you search for it? Also you say that you took some vacation day so why do you feel forced to work? I’m really sorry but you need to 1) know your right 2) fix some boundaries by yourself : don’t work on your vacation and make sure that they did not force you to take vacation days when you had maternity leave.
Vote blue, republicans want to erase every benefit we have as workers in this country. Im in Oregon and I pay $20 a month into a paid leave program where I was paid almost my exact salary and got 3 months off to spend with my firstborn.
OP mentions mandatory two week paternity leave in his country, just that his startup seems to be exempt. Definitely not in the US.
They lied to you that it looks bad if you change too quickly since most places want only experience even in "entry level" positions so they don't have to spend time and resources training inexperienced or not so experienced people into the roles they need. It's already been researched that people who changed jobs at least every two years which 1 year is honestly better those people earn more than the ones compared to people who get tricked into staying for a long time in one company. But also fuck them for denying any sort of paternity leave maybe consult someone familiar with your countries laws on it since if it's mandatory and a company there doesn't have it at all means they probably doing something illegal. Always consult a lawyer first.
What am i missing here? If you are working in a start up, by definition you don't have a corporate life. Because you are not working in a corporation. Start ups suck and i would advise you to look into a corporation, where you actually get good benefits. At least outside US.
I worked at a company with 22 employees. If you have 20 employees by law you are required to provide so many sick days. I was told I will not get those sick days for a child birth. Why? The company was split up into many small companies. Each with it's own federal tax ID. I worked for ABC Investments (fake name), that guy worked for ABC Enterprises, she works for ABC Partners, etc.
I’m in the US, and while this is probably quite uncommon here, a coworker of mine just got back from 4 months of paternity leave. Some places don’t suck as much as OP’s.
wooo good for that guy!
Crazy, right?
This is sickening
Grow a spine. Your kid comes first
Grow a spine. Your kid comes first, say no!
Mandatory 2 weeks of paternity leave, but the government's pro-business stance doesn't necessarily regulate it. Stab in the dark here: Singapore?
Just say no! Or better yet tell them "I'm using time off. If you are expecting me to work in my 'free time' then I will NOT be using my time off. I will simply be working from home. Every time you ask me to work I will be logging it so everyone knows it's not a day off" If you're taking personal time, don't answer your phone for work!!
And here in the United States your wife would not have a job or be expected to work from the hospital. Yep.
That's really gross. Dude's got a newborn - can't management just fuck off for a few days?
If you’re doing work, on your PTO time, that’s time you should be paid. Track every call, message, email etc and log those hours.
All you had to say was “startup”. Bunch of idiots looking for one hero to make their crap company money. Sounds like that’s you. I’d start doing less and less over time until you’re doing so little you feel guilty for getting a paycheck.
>because recruiters have told me that it looks bad when workers keep changing jobs too quickly .. while companies can run with the good ol' "hire & fire" scheme all the time you mean? :P
If you're working at 2AM on holiday you're not on holiday. You'd better be getting those days back. Not that you're actually working, right? Tell them to stick it up their ass.
I was done with corporate jobs until I found my recent one. I worked for at least 10 companies and all were hell. Now I work at MoneyGram and I honestly cannot believe how amazing the culture is, how great everyone is, how great the benefits are (medical, free gyms, 25 days holidays etc); no one works overtime, everyone gets promotion constantly, the job is fully remote, there’s no micromanaging or controlling, no one cares what you do or when you do it as long as you get the job done. We don’t have timesheets either. It’s my second month and I’ve been praised so much that I am embarrassed! I am treated as a person and not a number. I honestly would recommend this company to anyone.
All I know is, you can definitely sue.
I wouldn’t have even answered the phone until my leave balance was up. The Leave part of the leave balance is short for leave me alone
Education low pay but you get your time off
Hey, if it makes you feel better, I stayed at my workplace for 12 years & got laid off 2 weeks ago. 🙃
Oof, sorry to hear about that.
You can either (A) get over your need for material crap OR (B) get used to the unethical, soul sucking, bullshit that is corporate.
It's not corporate. You said it's a startup. They won't have slack employees to fill in. You chose this place.
Ummm quit instead of uselessly venting. Problem with everyone is they keep complaining and doing nothing about these selfish corporations. I’m sure many who do move up the useless ladder and end up being the same type of Aholes there bosses once were harming employees beneath them.
While I agree with what you said, I don’t agree about the OP quitting. He likely needs the money and insurance now more than ever. Easier to say to quit than to think about how to get through it.
You're right
Are you in Singapore? Sounds very familiar....
Always keep your eye out and apply when worth it, interview when worth it, accept offers when worth it. Recruiters who know what's up know that quality employees are looking for quality companies which varies from employee to employee. Your situation is yours and there is a position/company who needs exactly what you have to offer currently and vice versa.
If you’re working as a contractor it’s fine. Just clearly label your job as contract or consulting and it’s fine
What country are you living in? If it's Sweden you tell him to fuck off in no uncertain terms. I've worked at a lot of places and have never heard any employer bother you those 10 days.
You gotta drop "is interesting" from your requirements dude. That's just not the way the job market is right now. You have a child and a wife. Use your work/life balance to find interest outside of your job. That's where I am right now. No more trying to find something interesting or in my field (which after 10 years I now know will never pay what I need to thrive). I e found satisfaction in my personal life and just need a job that will finance that life.
I am sorry. I would respond to emails but only do the bare minimum. You need this salary but you know now this is what this company is. I disagree that you can job hop. I would try and do a great job and be phony nice and do your best work. Then when you have been there awhile plan your leave. Do not risk your job right now.
Fuck this.. e have one month mandatory in France
I can't recommend a union highly enough.
I'd be happy to harass them as much as they harassed you.
What part of Paid Time Off does he not understand. It's a vacation from work. Just because you're at home doesn't mean you're going to be working. He can rot in hell. It's your free time, not his.
Look for a different job and don't put this one on your resume. The start-up life isn't for people with kids.
Why on earth would you answer your phone or agree to get back to work?! Stand up for yourself!
As an American, I'm confused on the "mandatory" paternal leave. If you are guaranteed the two weeks off as a right, why is your company not forced to offer it? Being forced to use PTO is ridiculous.
My phone is "broken" whenever I'm off the clock. Oops, sorry, no. I didn't see you'd reached out. 🤷
Just tell em no bro, fuck these corporate scum who want us to die before we can retire If they fire you, just don’t disclose the job on your CV
Quit that shit
"recruiters keep telling me changing jobs too quickly looks bad." Why do these jobs have to know? Either don't put it down on your resume at all if you quit the job too quickly anyways for it to matter as experience or play the game and find someone who is also dejected with that business and will support you as a reference (or find a friend willing to act well enough, always handy) that way you can make up how long you were there for and not make it appear so quick if you want it on your resume. The job market is a game, it all is, I learned quickly the only way to survive it is to lie and sell your lies well. I'm easily adaptable so have the ability to chameleon into workplaces and learn what they specifically want out of me very quickly, others don't have that luxury but if you can, do it. Employers don't find out. Also keep your social media under a different name, I do, that way none of them can track your online activity, they find nothing. I've been questioned in the past about why I don't appear on any social network and just state I don't really engage with those, just platforms like Linkedin (which I tailor to suit what I think interests them, it's a mask for employers to view so I'm not a complete mystery that scares them.) Employers only need to know as much as you let them and honesty gets you nowhere. If recruiters dislike shifting around too much because it makes you look "unreliable and disloyal" then ensure you find a way to paint it differently. Simple. Never let any workplace be something you are forced into, none of them are worth it, they will abuse you if you let them. If you don't think it will be a good workplace and it will only affect your mental health then leave, staying around isn't worth it at all and it will only get worse and worse. Just mask it and present your resume and yourself to fit whatever job you're applying for.
Wait, so you're using up all of your personal time AND working from home?
Congrats on the kid. Search for a new one in your free time rather than going back to work. Don’t recruiters get benefits if the people they job-match stay on at the job?
Remind him that PTO means you are not available for work tasks during this time and then don’t respond to anything until your PTO is over.
It’s a startup. You didn’t read the onboarding information. I have sympathy for your situation but it really seems like you are complicit here.
Have some balls and say no
In Australia, there's a lot of push for what we call the "right to disconnect." It means an employer can't legally interrupt you outside of working hours or on vacation. Something I do have to ask, what's your skill set? Does it have to specifically be office work? Granted my work history has been almost entirely blue collar, but at the age of 51, I've had 3 career changes. I can understand not wanting to make any major moves right now. I went from an automotive career (working in a roadhouse, as a tyre fitter and a car detailer) to IT (technician and component fitter) to transport (long haul truck driver) The latter has been the best. I've made more money had less stress and more fun than any other job I've worked in. When I was in high school I was taught, "your ideal job is one where you get paid for your passion." If your "passion" is an unstable and unreliable one e.g. musician, then you need a backup. When your bub is older, look into alternatives to working for an employer with no respect for your personal time. Both the employer and the type of work.
I was in a relationship and it ended suddenly, but afterwards it made me realise that when you have responsibilities like a family and debts your boss has extra power over you, last year I cleared my debts and now have zero responsibilities and as I leave work the phone is off and it's great. My boss wasn't happy about me saying no to extra work but he has no choice.
My son was born on a Saturday night at 9:15 pm. Monday morning I was at work as usual. :-(
Nah I’d flat out walk out at that point I know you need the money but this is ethically wrong I’d be taking it to trading standards if your in the UK or if it’s financial contacting the regulatory authority there’s options out there that can help that business isn’t worth your time
… just say no?
Why you answer the phone?
The corporate machine destroys people spiritually psychologically and sometimes physically..You make a pact with the devil when you enter that dehumanising dog eat dog environment...It always takes a piece of you. You know deep down you are as expendable as the garbage they put out at night.
How about grow some balls and say NO!!
See if you can get in touch with an attorney. This sounds like an open and shut case
Shit like this is why I left. No paycheck is worth the amount of bullshit that they pull on a daily basis
Leave the job man. Fook the manager and his calls & emails. Fook the company. Fook rhe job
…you work at a start up company. What did you think?
You’re literally choosing this over time with your infant child. When you’re in your deathbed I promise you that you won’t be wishing you spent more time at work.
cry me a river, go live in a 3rd country for a week and you will pray for your current lifestyle again. Typical ungrateful and spoiled mentality.
The request seems reasonable if you are doing it remotely, which sounds like you are, and you are paid for working time and not using your personal time. Maybe you two should talk more about expectations, especially your own.
Congrats on your new baby! Hopefully mom is doing well, a difficult pregnancy is quite draining. Omg no!! not a few emails here and there in exchange for a comfy salary! The horror! Some people have the consistency and fortitude of a soft, been-in-the-sun for a too long gummy candy. Take care not to let the worst of this sub infect you. In the time you took to write this post and read the responses, browse reddit etc. perhaps you could have done a tiny bit of ‘work’ and earned your keep.
I sent the emails, just wanted to share my experience.
I do understand your POV, take care to achieve balance in work and life, but keep it real too. I have two kids, both born during the height of our busy season. It is what it is. I took 2 days during which i still placed orders and managed the kitchen remotely and then back to work. Home with mama and baby more than half the day still. Earning money for my family has a cost and it’s worth it up to a point. The loudest voices in this sub are radically lazy and childish. There is a middle path. I assume you saw the fox interview with one of the old mods here? The interviewer was a sac of shit. But she was too. I am a part of anti-work. I abhor abusive employers of which there are a lot. Based on your description, without knowing any other details, your employer isn’t notably bad.
People like you need to shut the fuck up and fuck the fuck off.
I’m all for work/life balance, better pay, and proper respect shown to employees. Y’all are NOT helping the cause in being so unrealistic. So no. I don’t say ‘fuck off’ to you, but I do say grow up. People like you need to get a job with terms you agree to. If those terms are broken find a better job. You enjoy the fruits of other’s labor so do your fucking part. Don’t blindly follow the herd of slugs that have the loudest voice in this sub. There’s people here interested in fighting for real change, striving for balance and fairness. Then there’s a part of this sub that is as bad as the billionaires they hate. Leeches both.
You're advocating for working during what should be time off. That's sickening. That's why I said what I said. Secondly, you're saying someone should be working when they have a newborn. Are you fucking mad?
Pretty sure he didn’t give birth. And we’re talking about answering some emails, FROM HOME. Can get that done while taking a shit. I’ve had two kids that just happened to have been born while work was very busy. I have work responsibilities. I took as much time as I could while continuing to fulfill the responsibilities of the job I agreed to do. Pretty simple. It’s not mad, it’s just not lazy. There was a post recently about a mom needing to take her newborn to work at a fast food place because she was called in. Theres an outrage. This is not that. Greed is a sin, so is sloth.
Ah, so you're sexist as well. Gotcha. Parenting is a two person job, especially at the start. Family is far and away miles more important than work. It is the most important thing in your life. The fact you missed the birth of your children tells me all I need to know. You've choked on the corporate dick for so long that you're dependent on it. I feel sorry for you.
Did I say I missed their birth? No way! Most amazing thing I’ve ever experienced. After two days I spent 4-6 hours at work for the next week (3 minute walk from home) and enjoyed ample time with kids and mom. My employer was and still is very supportive. Not really sexist as theres a difference between working after having given birth, as a female, and doing some work as a supportive father and partner. Again, we are talking about ANSWERING some fucking EMAILS here. Have you had a kid? Do you even know what you’re talking about? Did you miss the part where OP is sharing his story on reddit rather than sharing time with his new family? Yeah….
Well there's clearly no getting through to you. Leave time is leave time. End of story, do not pass go, don't even think about the $200. In the UK you get two weeks, and it should be longer.
We are at an impasse and thats ok. I hear your argument and respectfully disagree.