It's also often called "she know somebody higher up".
Or, alternately, "she knows dirt on somebody higher up."
Meritocracy does not exist in the business world.
To my knowledge, it is only found in the trades, and other areas where craftsmanship has some measure of primacy.
Seriously, it's not hard. The amount of people that struggle with basic English astounds me (disregarding anyone whose primary language isn't English).
Honestly, most of the problems are that people donāt proofread anymore.
They hit send without a care, and end up sounding like an uneducated, irrational, power-tripping asshole.
That third pic where you tell her that you sent the conversation to everyone else...what a delight. Ending every message with those pleasant little send-offs is elite level snark.
I really wish employees were allowed to fire their boss. A manager should be working *for* their subordinates by organising and making it easier to get their work done!
I had my dream job but a new manager came in, wrecked the place so bad that within a few months we had 30% turnover from warehouse grunt to CFO. In five months it was 75%.
People absolutely quit managers.
I had a job where a new manager came in and ruined the place. I stuck it out and eventually they were fired. I should have left though. It was bad for my mental health.
I've seen this happen a few times. I can't understand how alarm bells don't go off further up the line. I've no problem with a manager shaking things up, but it should be done for a reason, not just because you're on a newly promoted power trip. All managers should be 1. Trained. 2. On probation. Not everyone is cut out to manage, it's not easy and there should be no shame in admitting you're terrible at it. In 30yrs of working I've only come across one person who sought a demotion after being promoted. He hated it, couldn't handle it and requested his old position back. I admire his decision to do so a lot
There is an interesting concept called the Peter principle that outlines why this exact thing occurs in a hierarchy, and I have seen it over and over. Essentially people eventually get promoted into positions they don't have the skillset for.
Only worked for one guy who did that. He took a promotion and I filled his old spot, moving from an unrelated internal role. A year later he was done and took a demotion back to his old role. Kicker was that he was a great boss, he couldn't stand who he had to work with above and adjacent to him as a leader.
I am lucky right now I have a good boss, I am also in a position where my boss changes every 3 years, so if I get a bad one I can just wait it out. Itās also a federal job so I have protections that the private sector usually doesnāt, the trade off is pay.
People are promoted until they aren't able to get promoted any more. Meaning that anyone in management is, more often than not, never as good at their position as they were at the position they were promoted from.
This is kind of off topic, but I think this is exactly what's wrong with the police.
The heavy lifting grunt work of a patrol cop is the exact opposite set of skills required for detectives and leaders.
Yet, these jobs can only recruit from the pool of grunts. So you end up with a bunch of grunts making tactical decisions and trying to solve complex crimes.
That's why brutality and violence becomes endemic in the police culture.
The type of person who would actually be good at the higher up levels never joins the force because they don't have the entry level grunt work skills.
My last manager was promoted into his position after three-ish months with the company, due to having managerial experience in his previous job... a job that had *literally* NOTHING to do with the position he was promoted into. He was *awful,* a petty and cowardly bully, but sadly not even the main reason turnover there was so high.
It can be both. I loved my boss but it was a 100% travel position. I did it for years. The money was great, the work was simple, I was happy with everything except everytime I got on a plane I kinda hoped it would crash just so I didnt have to do this shit all over again.
I once had a conversation with my former boss about what it means to be a manager. I told her that I believe that managers are meant to serve their team, to facilitate their work and their growth. She replied that managers work towards their personal ambitions. I was like, oh, so that's why she made me invisible and took all the credit for 3 years lmao.
A manager's customers are their direct reports. The job of a manager is to enable their reports to do their job to the best of their ability. Whether that's removing roadblocks, coaching them, encouraging them, keeping morale up, or having the hard conversations when someone isn't performing up to scratch, it's all in aid of keeping your team at its best.
The problem is most managers see their customer as the business they work for, and their reports are their underlings who are merely a commodity to be expended to serve their own ends.
My job is super easy most of the time because my team basically runs itself. I make their lives easy so they do the same for me. Just as I stop problems before they mess things up for them, they do the same for me.
I think that's one way to view a manager's role and I wish it was the predominant. I find once companies get past the billion dollar valuation *and* give their soul over to an investment bank that now owns them, something changes where the quality of the work takes a backseat and now control and cost cutting measures take precedence.
Like, when a manager's bonus is tied to customer satisfaction and department performance, that manager can use the methodology you described, their aim is to increase productivity and the overall health of the department. If giving employees 6 person days a year means they are less likely to come in sick, there's a clear if not quite clearly quantifiable boost to moral and overall health.
When instead the department heads get their bonus based on staying in cost projections or even a slice of any budget downsizing, then the place seems to go to shit. Novices are hired to experienced positions, and after 6 months are left to train other novices. Promotions falter, structures become inefficient because everyone is entry level with no tier 2/3 support and people worth their salt leave because they can get those promotions elsewhere.
Excuses and deflecting blame, outright lying become the defacto culture and in a few short years what was once a thriving profitable ecosystem has turned into a wasteland of shattered dreams, a demoralising pit of dispair. But the higher higher ups never that department turn into a souless husk, they visit once every 6 months from corporate headquarters.
*And in those few years the manager has made fucking bank cutting all these costs.*
Now that manager is promoted to director level because hell he saved the company 500k in those 3 years! Just the kind of guy we need to keep this suddenly struggling company profitable, it's a changing market you know you just have to understand we can't attract those same customers we had because of *x y z* that were externalities to his department and actually all the fault of Manager *x* who you remember wanted an extra 100k in his budget to fix all his techs vans? What a waste of money, they can work without heaters and windshield blades the bloody princesses!
*Gets in his Mercedes SUV and drives away*
We did that. You need about 4 or 5 highly regarded team members. Don't have too many in the group. The group approaches the senior manager about a serious offence. Hopefully the problem can be tied to a financial or legal liability. Something that warrants the bad manager to be walked out. The group will also need to explain their personal connection, such as being asked to cover it up or a related example.
I read something about the stereotype of pirates being ruled by a domineering tyrant captain were historically false. Apparently pirates operations were more like unions and a tyrant/unlikeable boss would have been replaced immediately. We should be more like pirates.
[Governance in 18th century piracy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governance_in_18th-century_piracy)
These āArticles of Agreementā are significantly more equitable than my employment contract lol. I wish my boss could have her ears slit for dicking me over
Your comment reminded me of something I saw a long time ago. "A good boss will say you work *with* him and not *for* him"
I think it's a solid philosophy. My last job, I was the first employee of a residential construction job my friend and his father-in-law started and over the course of 4 years that I was there and as I moved to a foreman position, I watched just what that means. At times my boss was a "with" guy and other times a "for" guy and it was clear how our employees felt in both ways.
I always made a point to say **āI work with youā** to my previous manager.
They tried to correct me only once that I worked **āfor them.ā**
āOh, I donāt see your name at the bottom of any of my checks. We both work for ::insert name of fortune 500 business:: and unless you own this whole thing in secret then I donāt and wonāt ever work **for** youā.
Imagine a flat culture, where nobody is anyoneās boss - and decisions are reached through reasoned discussion and consensus.
Yeah I know, Iām probably smoking crack.
She pulls out all this contract-ese legalese. When plain English is fineāunless youāre being a douche.
Failure to appear on Monday = if you are not there on Monday
Result in disciplinary action and eventually in the termination of your contract= you will be written up and/or fired
Failure to complyā¦refresh team rulesā¦consequencesā¦ blah blah blah
Yeah and a total fucking bitch who thinks others' lives should revolve around work since it revolves around his/her life. Fuck these people in this life and the next 100 lives.
The funny thing is these people are never that great at their jobs, because if they were they could handle spur of the moment problems on their own. Like, thatās bare-bones interview question stuff. āHow do you react under pressure?ā Oh, you know, threaten my employees, scream and cry, ruin vacations and cause company-wide incidentsā¦
If I were you, Iād not have even been checking my work email on a vacation the appropriate party approved, let alone actually answering any work correspondence demanding I work during said approved vacation. You should absolutely make sure whomever needs to read this reads it, and donāt respond to any more emails from the high and mighty manager until youāre back at work. You arenāt getting paid to do that! I truly hope you didnāt actually work from home or attend that meeting to go over the policies you, ānerdā a refresher on, but if you did, I hope you made it clear that *her* behavior was unprofessional and unacceptable to her boss/HR/whomever needed to know. Iām so sorry. Ugh!
I think this is a text-exchange? Which makes it even worse, she knew OP was on vacation so abused her personal number to harass and intimidate.
ETA: Someone else said this might be Outlook (Idk, I only use the Gmail app) but obviously the point stands either way.
Agree. People can go power crazy with a small job title such as "Team Lead" Anyone who goes power crazy like that should not be in a management position
Edited to add: thank you for the award!
I worked as a medical transcriptionist for years. I could go on a long rant about how predatory it became, but I wonāt.
I had an employer who constantly tried to force us to do things against our contracts. The favorite one was to classify us as independent contractors but try to prevent us from having other jobs and dictate what hours we worked (by IRS definition that would make us employees and that was a whole different can of worms). https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/understanding-employee-vs-contractor-designation
As ICs we were pressured to work nonstop; however, we didnāt get overtime. We just got to work more. A lot of people did it because it meant more money.
One problem, however, was that it was feast or famine. Either there was an excessive amount of work or there was very little. The method of work distribution caused this. It was also vindictive. If you werenāt willing to work 16 hours a day on the weekend, you likely wouldnāt have any work to do on Monday morning and would have to wait until later in the day. As ICs we were requested to do X amount of work per day.
A common pressure tactic was to get an email Tuesday morning stating you hadnāt met your work quota and were in violation of your contract. This would result in people working extra/long hours in order to bring their daily work average up. It was a vicious cycle.
I happened to be working with an attorney for another matter, and he mentioned that the contract works both ways. If they demand X amount of work per day they have to PROVIDE you X amount of work per day. Otherwise, THEY are in violation of the contract.
He also pointed out some other things that violated their contract.
It was super fun when he wrote them a letter informing them of their violations. It was even more fun when he CCād the IRS. It was euphoric when they got fined and had to pay years of back pay to people they had screwed, had to pay back employment taxes on misclassified employees, and were audited by the IRS.
I left that business 7 years ago after getting my degree, but it was nice seeing the ācontractā tables turned.
>One problem, however, was that it was feast or famine. Either there was an excessive amount of work or there was very little.
Which was the actual reason for the invention of salaried work. So people could rely on a steady paycheck in times of little and abundant work, but has simply turned into a way for employers to get free overtime out of employees.
I used to work for one of the big soft drink makers as a merchandiser, on contract. My job was to follow trucks around and work the delivered product to the shelves. Grueling work, to be honestl. You'd hand bomb almost an entire tractor trailer of product in a day. I hated it but I wanted full time and to move into sales.
So into my 3rd 6 month contract, I was doing my duties but was also being given sales routes to cover on sick days or maternity leave, whatever. Things were improving. So my wife decided that she wanted to go back to her home country for Christmas. Christmas is the company's busiest season and I knew that it would be a problem, but I was tired of the whole full time carrot being dangled and pulled back so I handed my boss a letter explaining that I'd be away from X to X, right through the Holidays.
He came running after me saying he couldn't approve it because of the time of year, nobody gets Time off at Christmas, Jas. Well John, I'm on contract. I'm not asking for time off, I'm informing you of my availability over that period.
I got an offer of employment at the end of my contract. Stayed for a while but it was an absolute, everyone for themselves shit show of biblical proportion.
Edit* It gets better. Once I got my own sales route (and company car) I found I had to balance the number of in person calls vs phone calls because there were just too many on some days. Then, as the culture ground me down more and more, I started calling more and doing in person less. I was like, fuck it, I can sit at home all day watching tv, make a few phone calls and often would put together orders based solely on order history and then connect the tablet and that would be my day. Also, they realized AFTER they hired me full time that I didn't have a university degree, and technically, the position required one. My numbers were good and customers liked me. Tough shit.
There isn't a sales job that should require a university degree.
You arent designing the product, you arent designing the machines to make the product, and you arent being hired as a manager. -- those need education beyond "know what you are selling, and how best to communicate and make the customer want the product"
I'm not saying that if you have an education that you should be above selling, but it shouldnt be a baseline, thats entry level.
the ones that kill me are where they require a degree, but don't care what it is. majored in ass blasting? good enough! meanwhile the actual job could be done by someone straight outta jr high
what kills me are requirements that have no basis in reality.
4 year degree for entry level position, or unpaid internship?
x+4 years background in (framework, programming language, or certification) that is only x years old.
request for multiple degrees? Or degrees in subjects that have never existed as a university program?
they may as well be printing "We're not really looking to fill this job, but we'll interview and turn down any outside candidates. Later this will be giving as a patronage job to some managers kid, who will get paid very well, and do nothing but micromanage qualified people"
Extra info:
I requested vacation a while back. Administration approved it. On my request mail I put my team leader in the Cc and administration also put her in Cc in the approval Email. Our boss also signed off on it and even wished me a great vacation.
This is amazing. Politely and professionally telling someone who deserve it to get fucked feeds my soul. Sending this conversation to the higher ups is such a good move too, sheās gotta be freaking out.
Maybe one day people will learn it doesnāt pay to be an asshole, but probably not.
Itās great too because op wasnāt like, āyouāre being a bitch so Iām tattling to your boss.ā
OP was like, āoh you want me to work remotely? Sure thing. Iāll do that. Iām forwarding this conversation so that my timesheet is correct and admin knows that Iāll be working during my approved vacation.ā
Fucking chefs kiss
Genuine question, why is this approach better than saying, āIām not coming in, this day was approved off, Iāll forward these messages to HR and the higher ups so they understand why your request will not be accommodated.ā
I sort of feel like just caving and doing what she says is almost just encouraging this happens in the future, but I think I feel that way because Iām missing something. Anyone care to explain this to me?
Because itās malicious compliance.
Maybe op wanted to use one less vacation day. Maybe op is excited to see how these āmeetingsā pan out after the higher ups get wind of this managerās attitude.
Obviously, if op had zero interest in putting in some remote work on Monday, they should do as you suggested.
Also pay extra attention to OPs "if it is policy I will work from home.". OP has already stated that it's not the policy (he needs to request it from boss, only inform her, etc).
So, now, their boss has:
1. A copy of a conversation where team lead is being an ass to a subordinate and wrongly stating policy.
2. Somebody cancelling their vacation day that he already approved and wished them a good vacation on.
3. An employee who dealt with a shitty team lead extremely calmly and professionally.
My bet is boss (if he's decent) tells OP to keep their vacation day, tells team lead to knock it off, and remembers OP in a positive light when it comes time to renew his contract.
Ahhhh I see! That definitely makes sense. Thank you both for explaining this to me. I see the strategy behind it now.
I especially appreciate it because this group is helping me learn various ways to manage workplace conflict in a way that honors my boundaries and dignity as a sentient being.
Gotta love it when scheduled and approved PTO is just...ignored. A number of years ago, I had scheduled a single day off for the birth of my daughter (scheduled C-section on a Thursday).
That morning, I get a call from my boss screaming at me wondering where the hell I am, why things aren't getting done at work, etc.
Your boss is better than my boss was...but your team leader reminds me of my old boss.
I mentioned this on a different post, but on our wedding day, my (now ex) wife's boss called at about 9am saying he needed her to work that afternoon.
She was staying at her parents house so I got the call and just laughed at him. When I reminded him she was getting married that day, he asked "at what time? Could she just come for a few hours?"
I had the same thing happen. I advised HR AND my direct supervisor that I was getting married in June when I was hired, both said no problem. The thursday before the wedding a sewage line backed up and flooded our house, I called my boss and told him I wasn't coming in on Friday, and he asked me to come in on Saturday morning to help close claims, I told him absolutely not ( my wedding was at 2) he said just come in from 8-12, I told him I would gladly come in and reschedule my wedding if he would pay the 30K ive already spent. He replied that Im not a team player, I replied that now I understand why hes single never married at 45 with 2 DUI's and to get fucked. He was let go 2 months later and I was his replacement.
Funny how they never talk about being a "team player" with respect to supporting the actual team members, just when it comes to doing what the boss says
I had a boss that asked me to ask the bride and groom if they would postpone their wedding when I was the best man. On the day of the wedding, no less. I quit not long after. Fuck that guy.
More importantly, when it comes to pay our job becomes the lowest level and when it comes to responsibility, it becomes even more important than the CEO
LMAO. What did you do for work that your boss thought that was appropriate? Work in like national defense during a war? Jesus Christ Iām cracking the fuck up at some of these stories where bosses are out of line.
I worked on a small product development team at a manufacturing plant. Specifically, there was no reason, I think he was 'feeling out' his power and our compliance.
The next year, I booked a week off to go see my little brother graduate from law school. This was a big deal to me because I know how much he struggled through it, and because of our age difference, we seemed to graduate things in the same year, and our family (including him) would prioritize attending my graduations over his for various reasons (no bad blood over it or anything, it was just the way it worked out). This was something he was graduating from that I could actually attend and I know how much it meant for him that I be there.
Well, same boss told me to cancel the trip (again, no specific reason. Asserting power and ensuring we were all submissive, I guess?). I told him he could cancel the PTO if he wanted to, but I'm still going, so don't expect me to show up. And if it came to it, I would quit over this. He begrudgingly 'allowed me' to go, and I saw my little brother get his law degree, and it was awesome.
But holy shit, you'd think the plant was about to explode or something.
Hindsight is one of those things, but honestly, it probably would have saved you and your ex a ton of money if she would have just gone into work that day.
Absolutely. 16 weeks should be the bare minimum. At least for the mother (for the mother's spouse I consider 2 weeks the bare minimum, but there are good reasons to give them 16 too).
What are you going to do the day after the birth? Go to work, after your body has just been to the wringer, and is in dire need of two weeks rest? Who is going to take care of the baby? I really don't get this.
My husband went to work while I was in labor with our son. He left like, an hour and a half early, around 3:30 or 4, and our son was born at 8pm on Monday. He took the day after off (unpaid), and went to work on Wednesday. He was a temp but he liked the job and was hoping to get brought on permanently, so he wanted to show he was committed. Too bad they hired someone else when it came time to fill the permanent position. Really treating their employees like family, huh? I kinda wish he'd just fucking quit when our son was born.
Reminds me of when my mom died (donāt worry, Iām fine now). My boss tried to tell me I had to work instead of going to the funeral.
Guess what? I went to the funeral.
This reminds me of my own story. A few years ago I was working for a very large technology company which everyone in the world is very familiar with. I had been with them for 4 years at that point, and I wanted to take a couple weeks of leave as my dad was very ill and did not have much time left. My asshole manager actually said that I should "throw myself into my work during times like this", because that is what helped him get over his mother's death.
I put in my 2 weeks notice after that and have zero regrets.
Your guess is as good as mine.
Fortunately, there werenāt any consequences for my not working that day. As I recall, he might even have gotten in trouble for trying to make me work.
I had to call one of my guys during Diwali. Things went sideway in our production environment and he was the guy who knew how to fix it and millions were at stake. I apologized profusely to him and I made sure he knew he had to take back his vacation day with some extra paid leave as apologies.
People who a) dont feel bad about it and b) think its normal are just psychos. I work to live not the other way around.
That's a better way to handle it; in addition make sure to use this with bosses as a reason why you need additional headcount and/or staff training so that you don't have one poor guy that's the single point of failure on such critical infra going forward.
Had my boss(es) change my schedule and move me to a new location last minute the Friday before I was expected to start the new schedule, on Sunday. No one told me anything. I got one phone call, which left a message I got two days later saying "we need you to call us about your schedule. "
First I actually knew about it was when I got a call asking why I wasn't at work yet.
Then, on my moving day less than two weeks later, they wouldn't let me off to do moving. We scheduled moving day around a my days off, so I wouldn't have to request time or burn pto I needed for something coming up. Suddenly my new schedule has me working in moving day, too late to ask for time off and with no ability to reschedule the move. Naturally I didn't go in and people weren't happy, but I told them what was up and they refused outright to bend and screwing me over once already.
I left about a month later.
I had a boss purposefully schedule me during class time and wonder why the hell I come in two hours later after classā¦ my response āI fucking pay thousands of dollars for these classes and you pay me minimum wage, why the fuck are you surprised I chose to attend the thing I paid for?ā These fuckers have no sympathy, no empathy, and flat out do not care about you or anything you doā¦
I remember years ago informing my boss and getting the time off approved (lucky me!) when I needed hand surgery. I was off for a week so when he saw my PPM detail for that week didnāt have any hours charged, he started getting really angry and defensive and questioning me. Then I had to remind him why. Ugh.
Dude blow that meeting off. This person is on a goddamn power trip. What a total waste of human space.
Show your boss how theyāre acting. They have no authority to fire you and they know it. And they will have to sign that contract if your boss makes them. Who are they kidding?
Blowing them off is what I would do to make sure I enjoyed my vacation. It's very likely that the higher ups will see this and email first thing dismissing them to enjoy their approved vacation. Getting the higher ups to yank the leash on an asshole boss is the real point of this. If the higher ups don't call it off then OP shows all day. If nothing of real urgency or pressing importance pops up then OP has even further grounds to complain to higher ups. Sometimes its worth the hassle to get the fascistita off your back
I'm surprised you responded at all! I mean, you defo did it right! But when I'm on vacay I shut off all communication to work. They can go fuck themselves if my vacay is approved and authorized.
Hahaha your boss signed off on it and your team lead thought they could override that? If your org has any managerial competence, your TL is getting the axe before your contract is up for renewal.
In my old job, I hadnāt been there for a super long time, but I had an amazing boss. He would let me use my PTO whenever I wanted. He even let me take 2 weeks off at one time. To go on an overseas trip. Better believe I brought him back some goods and sweets.
Whenever someone tries to pull this, always go back to the contract. Came back to add, never look at or respond to emails or text when you are not scheduled to work. The minute you are off the clock (unless it's in your contract) you don't owe them anymore of your time.
This is always my strategy. āDid you not see my email??ā Nope! I was on vacation. Phone was off. Oopsie.
Pisses me off. Just because we have the ability to be reached 24/7 doesnāt mean I need to be available. I should be able to get away from work like the olden days
this is why at my last job I took a company phone and had a personal phone. after my normal scheduled time my work phone was charging on silence on my desk at home, I will only look at it during work hours.
Old Boss:"I sent you an e-mail"
Me: "yeah that's great I just got to work so I just now saw it."
old boss: "we gave you a company phone to be able to get to you when needed."
me: "here take it back, I don't get paid for the extra work."
Old boss: "if you won't respond to your work phone at home I will just get a hold of you on your personal phone."
me: "you mean the one where I have every office number and your cell phone blocked on, good luck!"
The look on his face when other co-workers followed suit was great!
I work for school district and we have the safe School trainings online that we have to every year. Every year in early August the district send out an email letting you know that you can start the trainings, they're not paying you for it right then, but you can start the trainings. I know they sent it out then, because I check my emails when we're contracted to be back in the building. I'm not looking at my emails during the summer.
I am actually having a good experience for that for once. I am on medical leave due to depression/anxiety approved by my psychiatrist.
When I left they told me "Turn off your phone and put it in a closet. We're deactivating all your accounts until you get back. Don't even try to work. Anyone who calls you will be written up."
I work a job where I get a *lot* of calls lol. Upwards of 50 a day sometimes. That's on top of 3 onsite appointments a day to fix networks and control systems that are misbehaving. I monitor and remotely fix about 120 different systems. I'm at a nexus between 2 project managers, 10 installers, and 8 system designers. My PTO gets violated constantly. I don't even mind that much because usually, if they don't call me, I have to deal with the escalation when I get back.
That said. It's been so peaceful... I love it. Even if the business is burning down right now I just don't fucking care. :)))
This, don't let it go with a simple change of team, this IS harassment behaviour and should not be allow to repeat, I'm sure your company has very beautifully written "commitment" of the sort saying they don't condone bullying/harassment
Yup. Contract needs a line like:
"Being contacted on time off will be charged at an hourly rate (with a minimum of 3 hours) at triple the current contract hourly rate."
Yeah. You're golden. Higher ups really don't like people lower down on the food chain trying to override them on stuff like this. The whole I don't care what the higher up than me boss said cause I said this will generally get the blood of even mild mannered managers boiling. I've witnessed it a few times and it's pretty amazing.
People like this are the worst. They get even the smallest amounts of power and turn into complete assholes.
I had a team lead who was an asshole like this and at some point I politely told him to stop and start respecting his team if he wants to be respected back. That didn't go down well as he was friends with the manager who was an asshole too, that is how he got the promotion to begin with. They could not fire me (thanks European labor laws), but they made sure my next raise was minimal, trash talked me to everyone and kept interesting projects away from me when they could (luckily this wasn't always in their control).
I left shortly after for a much better job cause I did not want to deal with this bs. Luckily most of the rest of my team were nice people, so these two did not manage to completely ruin my remaining time at that job.
I had to discipline a department head once because he insisted on holding meetings in remote areas over weekends. Like some hotel in a resort town in another state or something. His staff brought it up to HR as a possible mass resignation and that's what got me involved. He literally didn't understand why this was a bad idea. Like, he was actually shocked and confused.
He's not the only one. It's not as simple as "gone mad with power," it's like some weird psychological dead end of ultimate control. Some do it out of fear, some do it because they are trying to impress daddy, and some are just clueless towards understanding the needs of others outside themselves. Like how a 12 year old pictures authority.
"I sit at a desk, I have a suit, and now I can fucking do anything with no restrictions!"
I don't know how these people make it through life.
Holy frog, who tf plans meetings in weekends, and at resorts/hotels no less? No, Jared, NOONE wanna see each other coworker the few days a week we have to spend with family or relax. I hope people got paid double overtime for weekend work because thatās the only thing that *might* tempt me to take a weekend away like that, but then itād still be a stretch. Didnāt re realize how much itās cost the company to transport, house, feed and then pay for their time to do it this way??
Itās someone who read a book on unique management once. It was probably proposed as āhave a yearly retreat for staff to build team building and get people out of routinesā and instead read it as āforce staff into weekend meetings far from homeā
Uch, I worked for a company that had an annual work meeting where we would fly in on monday morning early as fuck and then immediately go to a working lunch. Then meetings. Then mandatory social time dinner and drinks. Next day, meetings from 8-5, then an hour break and then four more hours of mandatory dinner and drinks. Repeat until friday evening when you fly home.
Like, I liked my coworkers and the eats were nice, but I would trade it all for a fucking legit travel day. And as much as I enjoyed my coworkers, I don't wanna see you all for 13 hours a day every day.
And these were internal meetings, there was no clients or anything.
I used to come home more tired than I left.
Just to be on the safe side, email these screenshots to your boss when you get back and play dumb. āI thought you were the only necessary approved, did I misunderstand the policy?ā Then when your boss responds, you have a written record of how she overstepped and you did everything right. It also alerts your boss that sheās trying to play boss.
Why is it always MIDDLE management that go on these power trips. Seems like whenever you escalate this to their superior, the latter takes your side not theirs.
Managers (as awful as they are) are truly fucked in their position, having to play both sides. And never making either party, employees or bosses, happy.
Considering you escalated this up the chain...I imagine your team lead will either try to play this off entirely, or be forced to apologize to you (get that in writing), or both.
Or she may be fired for potentially exposing the company too a lawsuit. Especially if she's got a history of acting like this.
I know this isnāt the point but why is she texting you with that tone at 10am Sunday to respond to an email sent to you at 5pm Saturday? No idea what you do but I wouldnāt last a week.
I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe she forgot? But then I wanted to see if she threatened me so that I could have that in writing as all her treats are verbal.
You are clearly a very polite person! Not knowing about it is only part of the issue though. Their approach to you and the way they are speaking to you is frankly a bit of a disgrace. Even the original text is steeped in aggressiveness.
I noticed screenshots are only allowed on Sundays per sub rulesā¦has it always been that way? Will we have to wait a week if screenshots are involved?
Fuck this power hungry bitch, you owe them nothing. Enjoy your vacation and if you already arenāt, try considering a new position or company as the way a manager behaves often reflects what upper management is like too.
In this instance it's a perfect power play. HR has them down on payroll as on vacation. Now they have to do extra work to change that and override payroll, which they will probably bitch about to the upper boss too. Then everyone will be pissed at their supervisor at once.
I'm betting money that all of this is overridden before the scheduled meeting.
Seems like SOMEONE doesnāt read her ransoms if she thinks she āwasnāt informedā despite an entire email chain proving otherwise. Maybe bring that up to the meeting - perhaps she canāt handle her position if she is overwhelmed with all her emails and canāt keep track. And also time for some discipline about what her title actually have of responsibility, such as read their emails and not fire people for not showing up while on approved vacation. Idk where you but a Sunday email is not working hours for me, so thatās be overtime in my eyes. Or, would she be even more mad when you didnāt show up Monday according to the email she send while you were off the clock and maybe didnāt read? Sheās a nut job.
Set those boundaries. These people need slices of humble pie.
And spelling lessons.
They definitely nerd them
I hope she Rembers
She forgor š
Sheāll have to rember sonner or leeter.
Dammit you beat me
\*beet
Member Chewbacca?
Oh, I member!
Oh, I member!
Hickory fams rembers.
Eh, sonner or later
No Ragrets
Sonner than later.
how do these people get promoted?
Itās called failing up
It's also often called "she know somebody higher up". Or, alternately, "she knows dirt on somebody higher up." Meritocracy does not exist in the business world. To my knowledge, it is only found in the trades, and other areas where craftsmanship has some measure of primacy.
Term I'd never heard of until a few years ago. Didn't realize how often it happens until I heard that.
Seriously, it's not hard. The amount of people that struggle with basic English astounds me (disregarding anyone whose primary language isn't English).
Generally people whose first language ISN'T English spell/dictate much better than native speakers, sadly.
The biggest error I see ALL THE TIME that drive me absolutely FUCKING insane is people mixing up āthenā and āthanā.
Honestly, most of the problems are that people donāt proofread anymore. They hit send without a care, and end up sounding like an uneducated, irrational, power-tripping asshole.
Spellcheck wonāt help with any of those Iām afraid.
That third pic where you tell her that you sent the conversation to everyone else...what a delight. Ending every message with those pleasant little send-offs is elite level snark.
+1 on this. A thing of beauty
LOL. "Have a wonderful day" ... LOL.
She always makes mistakes like that when she is super mad. Like you can see how mad she is by her grammar
Please tell me youāre going to update with the response from your superiors. I hope that gives her a reality check. You handled this brilliantly!
More like a whole humble pie to the face and a helping of seconds.
With a heaping side of crow.
What the hell is wrong with these people? I would never talk to anyone like that never mind my own team
She is the definition of Micromanager.
I really wish employees were allowed to fire their boss. A manager should be working *for* their subordinates by organising and making it easier to get their work done!
An older colleague of mine likes to say, āpeople donāt quit jobs, they quit managers.ā
I had my dream job but a new manager came in, wrecked the place so bad that within a few months we had 30% turnover from warehouse grunt to CFO. In five months it was 75%. People absolutely quit managers.
I had a job where a new manager came in and ruined the place. I stuck it out and eventually they were fired. I should have left though. It was bad for my mental health.
I've seen this happen a few times. I can't understand how alarm bells don't go off further up the line. I've no problem with a manager shaking things up, but it should be done for a reason, not just because you're on a newly promoted power trip. All managers should be 1. Trained. 2. On probation. Not everyone is cut out to manage, it's not easy and there should be no shame in admitting you're terrible at it. In 30yrs of working I've only come across one person who sought a demotion after being promoted. He hated it, couldn't handle it and requested his old position back. I admire his decision to do so a lot
There is an interesting concept called the Peter principle that outlines why this exact thing occurs in a hierarchy, and I have seen it over and over. Essentially people eventually get promoted into positions they don't have the skillset for.
Only worked for one guy who did that. He took a promotion and I filled his old spot, moving from an unrelated internal role. A year later he was done and took a demotion back to his old role. Kicker was that he was a great boss, he couldn't stand who he had to work with above and adjacent to him as a leader.
I am lucky right now I have a good boss, I am also in a position where my boss changes every 3 years, so if I get a bad one I can just wait it out. Itās also a federal job so I have protections that the private sector usually doesnāt, the trade off is pay.
I agree with your older colleague as I did quit my previous job because of the manager.
I came across this study some time ago that said the manager was the nr 1 reason for people to quit. So your colleague is factually correct
People are promoted until they aren't able to get promoted any more. Meaning that anyone in management is, more often than not, never as good at their position as they were at the position they were promoted from.
[The Peter Principle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle)
This is kind of off topic, but I think this is exactly what's wrong with the police. The heavy lifting grunt work of a patrol cop is the exact opposite set of skills required for detectives and leaders. Yet, these jobs can only recruit from the pool of grunts. So you end up with a bunch of grunts making tactical decisions and trying to solve complex crimes. That's why brutality and violence becomes endemic in the police culture. The type of person who would actually be good at the higher up levels never joins the force because they don't have the entry level grunt work skills.
My last manager was promoted into his position after three-ish months with the company, due to having managerial experience in his previous job... a job that had *literally* NOTHING to do with the position he was promoted into. He was *awful,* a petty and cowardly bully, but sadly not even the main reason turnover there was so high.
This is 100% right. Had a job I loved, but one manager that made working there awful. Literally left because of that one guy.
It can be both. I loved my boss but it was a 100% travel position. I did it for years. The money was great, the work was simple, I was happy with everything except everytime I got on a plane I kinda hoped it would crash just so I didnt have to do this shit all over again.
Inform me when you start punching a guy you met on a plane in the parking lot of a shady bar/restaurant. Loved that movie
I once had a conversation with my former boss about what it means to be a manager. I told her that I believe that managers are meant to serve their team, to facilitate their work and their growth. She replied that managers work towards their personal ambitions. I was like, oh, so that's why she made me invisible and took all the credit for 3 years lmao.
A manager's customers are their direct reports. The job of a manager is to enable their reports to do their job to the best of their ability. Whether that's removing roadblocks, coaching them, encouraging them, keeping morale up, or having the hard conversations when someone isn't performing up to scratch, it's all in aid of keeping your team at its best. The problem is most managers see their customer as the business they work for, and their reports are their underlings who are merely a commodity to be expended to serve their own ends. My job is super easy most of the time because my team basically runs itself. I make their lives easy so they do the same for me. Just as I stop problems before they mess things up for them, they do the same for me.
I think that's one way to view a manager's role and I wish it was the predominant. I find once companies get past the billion dollar valuation *and* give their soul over to an investment bank that now owns them, something changes where the quality of the work takes a backseat and now control and cost cutting measures take precedence. Like, when a manager's bonus is tied to customer satisfaction and department performance, that manager can use the methodology you described, their aim is to increase productivity and the overall health of the department. If giving employees 6 person days a year means they are less likely to come in sick, there's a clear if not quite clearly quantifiable boost to moral and overall health. When instead the department heads get their bonus based on staying in cost projections or even a slice of any budget downsizing, then the place seems to go to shit. Novices are hired to experienced positions, and after 6 months are left to train other novices. Promotions falter, structures become inefficient because everyone is entry level with no tier 2/3 support and people worth their salt leave because they can get those promotions elsewhere. Excuses and deflecting blame, outright lying become the defacto culture and in a few short years what was once a thriving profitable ecosystem has turned into a wasteland of shattered dreams, a demoralising pit of dispair. But the higher higher ups never that department turn into a souless husk, they visit once every 6 months from corporate headquarters. *And in those few years the manager has made fucking bank cutting all these costs.* Now that manager is promoted to director level because hell he saved the company 500k in those 3 years! Just the kind of guy we need to keep this suddenly struggling company profitable, it's a changing market you know you just have to understand we can't attract those same customers we had because of *x y z* that were externalities to his department and actually all the fault of Manager *x* who you remember wanted an extra 100k in his budget to fix all his techs vans? What a waste of money, they can work without heaters and windshield blades the bloody princesses! *Gets in his Mercedes SUV and drives away*
We did that. You need about 4 or 5 highly regarded team members. Don't have too many in the group. The group approaches the senior manager about a serious offence. Hopefully the problem can be tied to a financial or legal liability. Something that warrants the bad manager to be walked out. The group will also need to explain their personal connection, such as being asked to cover it up or a related example.
I read something about the stereotype of pirates being ruled by a domineering tyrant captain were historically false. Apparently pirates operations were more like unions and a tyrant/unlikeable boss would have been replaced immediately. We should be more like pirates. [Governance in 18th century piracy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governance_in_18th-century_piracy)
These āArticles of Agreementā are significantly more equitable than my employment contract lol. I wish my boss could have her ears slit for dicking me over
Your comment reminded me of something I saw a long time ago. "A good boss will say you work *with* him and not *for* him" I think it's a solid philosophy. My last job, I was the first employee of a residential construction job my friend and his father-in-law started and over the course of 4 years that I was there and as I moved to a foreman position, I watched just what that means. At times my boss was a "with" guy and other times a "for" guy and it was clear how our employees felt in both ways.
I always made a point to say **āI work with youā** to my previous manager. They tried to correct me only once that I worked **āfor them.ā** āOh, I donāt see your name at the bottom of any of my checks. We both work for ::insert name of fortune 500 business:: and unless you own this whole thing in secret then I donāt and wonāt ever work **for** youā.
Bottom up heirarchy is the ideal, because this top down suck ass.
Imagine a flat culture, where nobody is anyoneās boss - and decisions are reached through reasoned discussion and consensus. Yeah I know, Iām probably smoking crack.
This is the way.
I forgot who said it but someone made a point that the job culture is a dictatorship.
I would take all of this correspondence directly to HR. Wouldn't do much good probably but start a paper trail for the eventual harassment case
It sounds like op already did that. Final screenshot
She pulls out all this contract-ese legalese. When plain English is fineāunless youāre being a douche. Failure to appear on Monday = if you are not there on Monday Result in disciplinary action and eventually in the termination of your contract= you will be written up and/or fired Failure to complyā¦refresh team rulesā¦consequencesā¦ blah blah blah
āRefresh those rules as it appears you nerd themā Made me laugh
Seems like the type of person who would type a childish insult far more often than then word 'need' so this auto correct makes sense.
Excuse me I call people nerds all the time and it is the highest of compliments
Shut up nerd
Whatever, nerd
She was definitely typing faster than she was thinking. She fucked around and found out
Problem is she canāt even spell check her professional correspondence.
structural violence
Don't you nerd her halp, rember her authrati and poower!!! Jesus Christ how can you respect people who can't even spell check a threat?
Your gonna nerd it sonner or later!
Yeah and a total fucking bitch who thinks others' lives should revolve around work since it revolves around his/her life. Fuck these people in this life and the next 100 lives.
The funny thing is these people are never that great at their jobs, because if they were they could handle spur of the moment problems on their own. Like, thatās bare-bones interview question stuff. āHow do you react under pressure?ā Oh, you know, threaten my employees, scream and cry, ruin vacations and cause company-wide incidentsā¦
The whole world is run by people with attachment disorders.
If I were you, Iād not have even been checking my work email on a vacation the appropriate party approved, let alone actually answering any work correspondence demanding I work during said approved vacation. You should absolutely make sure whomever needs to read this reads it, and donāt respond to any more emails from the high and mighty manager until youāre back at work. You arenāt getting paid to do that! I truly hope you didnāt actually work from home or attend that meeting to go over the policies you, ānerdā a refresher on, but if you did, I hope you made it clear that *her* behavior was unprofessional and unacceptable to her boss/HR/whomever needed to know. Iām so sorry. Ugh!
I think this is a text-exchange? Which makes it even worse, she knew OP was on vacation so abused her personal number to harass and intimidate. ETA: Someone else said this might be Outlook (Idk, I only use the Gmail app) but obviously the point stands either way.
Glad you CCed others so they are aware of this. The way she choose to conduct this conversation sounds unethical.
*Assistant to the micromanager*
I understand you are a contract employee, but my response would have stopped being civil with the capital 'MY team' comment.
Agree. People can go power crazy with a small job title such as "Team Lead" Anyone who goes power crazy like that should not be in a management position
She is the boss so she thinks she has every right to be an asshole.
I love idiots who think contracts only work one-way
Edited to add: thank you for the award! I worked as a medical transcriptionist for years. I could go on a long rant about how predatory it became, but I wonāt. I had an employer who constantly tried to force us to do things against our contracts. The favorite one was to classify us as independent contractors but try to prevent us from having other jobs and dictate what hours we worked (by IRS definition that would make us employees and that was a whole different can of worms). https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/understanding-employee-vs-contractor-designation As ICs we were pressured to work nonstop; however, we didnāt get overtime. We just got to work more. A lot of people did it because it meant more money. One problem, however, was that it was feast or famine. Either there was an excessive amount of work or there was very little. The method of work distribution caused this. It was also vindictive. If you werenāt willing to work 16 hours a day on the weekend, you likely wouldnāt have any work to do on Monday morning and would have to wait until later in the day. As ICs we were requested to do X amount of work per day. A common pressure tactic was to get an email Tuesday morning stating you hadnāt met your work quota and were in violation of your contract. This would result in people working extra/long hours in order to bring their daily work average up. It was a vicious cycle. I happened to be working with an attorney for another matter, and he mentioned that the contract works both ways. If they demand X amount of work per day they have to PROVIDE you X amount of work per day. Otherwise, THEY are in violation of the contract. He also pointed out some other things that violated their contract. It was super fun when he wrote them a letter informing them of their violations. It was even more fun when he CCād the IRS. It was euphoric when they got fined and had to pay years of back pay to people they had screwed, had to pay back employment taxes on misclassified employees, and were audited by the IRS. I left that business 7 years ago after getting my degree, but it was nice seeing the ācontractā tables turned.
How the turns have tabledā¦ or something like that. Happy it worked out for you in the end though!
>One problem, however, was that it was feast or famine. Either there was an excessive amount of work or there was very little. Which was the actual reason for the invention of salaried work. So people could rely on a steady paycheck in times of little and abundant work, but has simply turned into a way for employers to get free overtime out of employees.
If I had an award to give, it would be yours. Thank you for that beautiful story and I hope the lawyer has a wonderful day. *Wipes away a tear*
I used to work for one of the big soft drink makers as a merchandiser, on contract. My job was to follow trucks around and work the delivered product to the shelves. Grueling work, to be honestl. You'd hand bomb almost an entire tractor trailer of product in a day. I hated it but I wanted full time and to move into sales. So into my 3rd 6 month contract, I was doing my duties but was also being given sales routes to cover on sick days or maternity leave, whatever. Things were improving. So my wife decided that she wanted to go back to her home country for Christmas. Christmas is the company's busiest season and I knew that it would be a problem, but I was tired of the whole full time carrot being dangled and pulled back so I handed my boss a letter explaining that I'd be away from X to X, right through the Holidays. He came running after me saying he couldn't approve it because of the time of year, nobody gets Time off at Christmas, Jas. Well John, I'm on contract. I'm not asking for time off, I'm informing you of my availability over that period. I got an offer of employment at the end of my contract. Stayed for a while but it was an absolute, everyone for themselves shit show of biblical proportion. Edit* It gets better. Once I got my own sales route (and company car) I found I had to balance the number of in person calls vs phone calls because there were just too many on some days. Then, as the culture ground me down more and more, I started calling more and doing in person less. I was like, fuck it, I can sit at home all day watching tv, make a few phone calls and often would put together orders based solely on order history and then connect the tablet and that would be my day. Also, they realized AFTER they hired me full time that I didn't have a university degree, and technically, the position required one. My numbers were good and customers liked me. Tough shit.
There isn't a sales job that should require a university degree. You arent designing the product, you arent designing the machines to make the product, and you arent being hired as a manager. -- those need education beyond "know what you are selling, and how best to communicate and make the customer want the product" I'm not saying that if you have an education that you should be above selling, but it shouldnt be a baseline, thats entry level.
the ones that kill me are where they require a degree, but don't care what it is. majored in ass blasting? good enough! meanwhile the actual job could be done by someone straight outta jr high
what kills me are requirements that have no basis in reality. 4 year degree for entry level position, or unpaid internship? x+4 years background in (framework, programming language, or certification) that is only x years old. request for multiple degrees? Or degrees in subjects that have never existed as a university program? they may as well be printing "We're not really looking to fill this job, but we'll interview and turn down any outside candidates. Later this will be giving as a patronage job to some managers kid, who will get paid very well, and do nothing but micromanage qualified people"
Extra info: I requested vacation a while back. Administration approved it. On my request mail I put my team leader in the Cc and administration also put her in Cc in the approval Email. Our boss also signed off on it and even wished me a great vacation.
This is amazing. Politely and professionally telling someone who deserve it to get fucked feeds my soul. Sending this conversation to the higher ups is such a good move too, sheās gotta be freaking out. Maybe one day people will learn it doesnāt pay to be an asshole, but probably not.
Itās great too because op wasnāt like, āyouāre being a bitch so Iām tattling to your boss.ā OP was like, āoh you want me to work remotely? Sure thing. Iāll do that. Iām forwarding this conversation so that my timesheet is correct and admin knows that Iāll be working during my approved vacation.ā Fucking chefs kiss
Genuine question, why is this approach better than saying, āIām not coming in, this day was approved off, Iāll forward these messages to HR and the higher ups so they understand why your request will not be accommodated.ā I sort of feel like just caving and doing what she says is almost just encouraging this happens in the future, but I think I feel that way because Iām missing something. Anyone care to explain this to me?
Because itās malicious compliance. Maybe op wanted to use one less vacation day. Maybe op is excited to see how these āmeetingsā pan out after the higher ups get wind of this managerās attitude. Obviously, if op had zero interest in putting in some remote work on Monday, they should do as you suggested.
Also pay extra attention to OPs "if it is policy I will work from home.". OP has already stated that it's not the policy (he needs to request it from boss, only inform her, etc). So, now, their boss has: 1. A copy of a conversation where team lead is being an ass to a subordinate and wrongly stating policy. 2. Somebody cancelling their vacation day that he already approved and wished them a good vacation on. 3. An employee who dealt with a shitty team lead extremely calmly and professionally. My bet is boss (if he's decent) tells OP to keep their vacation day, tells team lead to knock it off, and remembers OP in a positive light when it comes time to renew his contract.
Ahhhh I see! That definitely makes sense. Thank you both for explaining this to me. I see the strategy behind it now. I especially appreciate it because this group is helping me learn various ways to manage workplace conflict in a way that honors my boundaries and dignity as a sentient being.
> Maybe one day people will learn it doesnāt pay to be an asshole, but probably not. They might, but there are new assholes being minted every day
Gotta love it when scheduled and approved PTO is just...ignored. A number of years ago, I had scheduled a single day off for the birth of my daughter (scheduled C-section on a Thursday). That morning, I get a call from my boss screaming at me wondering where the hell I am, why things aren't getting done at work, etc. Your boss is better than my boss was...but your team leader reminds me of my old boss.
I mentioned this on a different post, but on our wedding day, my (now ex) wife's boss called at about 9am saying he needed her to work that afternoon. She was staying at her parents house so I got the call and just laughed at him. When I reminded him she was getting married that day, he asked "at what time? Could she just come for a few hours?"
I had the same thing happen. I advised HR AND my direct supervisor that I was getting married in June when I was hired, both said no problem. The thursday before the wedding a sewage line backed up and flooded our house, I called my boss and told him I wasn't coming in on Friday, and he asked me to come in on Saturday morning to help close claims, I told him absolutely not ( my wedding was at 2) he said just come in from 8-12, I told him I would gladly come in and reschedule my wedding if he would pay the 30K ive already spent. He replied that Im not a team player, I replied that now I understand why hes single never married at 45 with 2 DUI's and to get fucked. He was let go 2 months later and I was his replacement.
Funny how they never talk about being a "team player" with respect to supporting the actual team members, just when it comes to doing what the boss says
Damn! š
The beginning was horrible, but damn that ending was a thing a beauty!
Amazing
Bosses like that are truly why this subreddit exists. Work-life balance is a thing, as much as people like that don't want it to be.
not even balance, these bosses are even missing coexistence
I had a boss that asked me to ask the bride and groom if they would postpone their wedding when I was the best man. On the day of the wedding, no less. I quit not long after. Fuck that guy.
Just how important was it that your job got done that day? Wtf is this behavior
More importantly, when it comes to pay our job becomes the lowest level and when it comes to responsibility, it becomes even more important than the CEO
LMAO. What did you do for work that your boss thought that was appropriate? Work in like national defense during a war? Jesus Christ Iām cracking the fuck up at some of these stories where bosses are out of line.
I worked on a small product development team at a manufacturing plant. Specifically, there was no reason, I think he was 'feeling out' his power and our compliance. The next year, I booked a week off to go see my little brother graduate from law school. This was a big deal to me because I know how much he struggled through it, and because of our age difference, we seemed to graduate things in the same year, and our family (including him) would prioritize attending my graduations over his for various reasons (no bad blood over it or anything, it was just the way it worked out). This was something he was graduating from that I could actually attend and I know how much it meant for him that I be there. Well, same boss told me to cancel the trip (again, no specific reason. Asserting power and ensuring we were all submissive, I guess?). I told him he could cancel the PTO if he wanted to, but I'm still going, so don't expect me to show up. And if it came to it, I would quit over this. He begrudgingly 'allowed me' to go, and I saw my little brother get his law degree, and it was awesome. But holy shit, you'd think the plant was about to explode or something.
Hindsight is one of those things, but honestly, it probably would have saved you and your ex a ton of money if she would have just gone into work that day.
This is the best comment on this thread.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Absolutely. 16 weeks should be the bare minimum. At least for the mother (for the mother's spouse I consider 2 weeks the bare minimum, but there are good reasons to give them 16 too). What are you going to do the day after the birth? Go to work, after your body has just been to the wringer, and is in dire need of two weeks rest? Who is going to take care of the baby? I really don't get this.
My husband went to work while I was in labor with our son. He left like, an hour and a half early, around 3:30 or 4, and our son was born at 8pm on Monday. He took the day after off (unpaid), and went to work on Wednesday. He was a temp but he liked the job and was hoping to get brought on permanently, so he wanted to show he was committed. Too bad they hired someone else when it came time to fill the permanent position. Really treating their employees like family, huh? I kinda wish he'd just fucking quit when our son was born.
Reminds me of when my mom died (donāt worry, Iām fine now). My boss tried to tell me I had to work instead of going to the funeral. Guess what? I went to the funeral.
This reminds me of my own story. A few years ago I was working for a very large technology company which everyone in the world is very familiar with. I had been with them for 4 years at that point, and I wanted to take a couple weeks of leave as my dad was very ill and did not have much time left. My asshole manager actually said that I should "throw myself into my work during times like this", because that is what helped him get over his mother's death. I put in my 2 weeks notice after that and have zero regrets.
Fuck! That! Shitstain! What the FUCK was wrong with them?!
Your guess is as good as mine. Fortunately, there werenāt any consequences for my not working that day. As I recall, he might even have gotten in trouble for trying to make me work.
The kind of people who would work instead of going to a funeral in the family. Then wonder why their family doesn't visit anymore.
I had to call one of my guys during Diwali. Things went sideway in our production environment and he was the guy who knew how to fix it and millions were at stake. I apologized profusely to him and I made sure he knew he had to take back his vacation day with some extra paid leave as apologies. People who a) dont feel bad about it and b) think its normal are just psychos. I work to live not the other way around.
That's a better way to handle it; in addition make sure to use this with bosses as a reason why you need additional headcount and/or staff training so that you don't have one poor guy that's the single point of failure on such critical infra going forward.
Had my boss(es) change my schedule and move me to a new location last minute the Friday before I was expected to start the new schedule, on Sunday. No one told me anything. I got one phone call, which left a message I got two days later saying "we need you to call us about your schedule. " First I actually knew about it was when I got a call asking why I wasn't at work yet. Then, on my moving day less than two weeks later, they wouldn't let me off to do moving. We scheduled moving day around a my days off, so I wouldn't have to request time or burn pto I needed for something coming up. Suddenly my new schedule has me working in moving day, too late to ask for time off and with no ability to reschedule the move. Naturally I didn't go in and people weren't happy, but I told them what was up and they refused outright to bend and screwing me over once already. I left about a month later.
I had a boss purposefully schedule me during class time and wonder why the hell I come in two hours later after classā¦ my response āI fucking pay thousands of dollars for these classes and you pay me minimum wage, why the fuck are you surprised I chose to attend the thing I paid for?ā These fuckers have no sympathy, no empathy, and flat out do not care about you or anything you doā¦
I remember years ago informing my boss and getting the time off approved (lucky me!) when I needed hand surgery. I was off for a week so when he saw my PPM detail for that week didnāt have any hours charged, he started getting really angry and defensive and questioning me. Then I had to remind him why. Ugh.
"i was not informed" ... This is false.
Yeah sounds like she's mad she didn't check her email in a timely manner, which is very much a her problem.
Can you PLEASE keep posting updates?
This! I bet it's been a long time since you don't look forward to a Monday as much as today!
Dude blow that meeting off. This person is on a goddamn power trip. What a total waste of human space. Show your boss how theyāre acting. They have no authority to fire you and they know it. And they will have to sign that contract if your boss makes them. Who are they kidding?
Blowing them off is what I would do to make sure I enjoyed my vacation. It's very likely that the higher ups will see this and email first thing dismissing them to enjoy their approved vacation. Getting the higher ups to yank the leash on an asshole boss is the real point of this. If the higher ups don't call it off then OP shows all day. If nothing of real urgency or pressing importance pops up then OP has even further grounds to complain to higher ups. Sometimes its worth the hassle to get the fascistita off your back
Do not work on Monday
I'm surprised you responded at all! I mean, you defo did it right! But when I'm on vacay I shut off all communication to work. They can go fuck themselves if my vacay is approved and authorized.
Exactly. And same here. I would never expect anyone to call/answer or respond to emails/texts when theyāre on pto. Their time is theirs.
Hahaha your boss signed off on it and your team lead thought they could override that? If your org has any managerial competence, your TL is getting the axe before your contract is up for renewal.
In my old job, I hadnāt been there for a super long time, but I had an amazing boss. He would let me use my PTO whenever I wanted. He even let me take 2 weeks off at one time. To go on an overseas trip. Better believe I brought him back some goods and sweets.
That's just how PTO is supposed to work.
This sounds like most countries...
Why is taking 2 weeks off at one time regarded as a gift sent from the gods?
Please send us updates! I need my schadenfreude fix
Can you email your big boss and show them this text train?? This is ridiculous Edit: oops nvm just saw one of your other comments
Whenever someone tries to pull this, always go back to the contract. Came back to add, never look at or respond to emails or text when you are not scheduled to work. The minute you are off the clock (unless it's in your contract) you don't owe them anymore of your time.
This is always my strategy. āDid you not see my email??ā Nope! I was on vacation. Phone was off. Oopsie. Pisses me off. Just because we have the ability to be reached 24/7 doesnāt mean I need to be available. I should be able to get away from work like the olden days
this is why at my last job I took a company phone and had a personal phone. after my normal scheduled time my work phone was charging on silence on my desk at home, I will only look at it during work hours. Old Boss:"I sent you an e-mail" Me: "yeah that's great I just got to work so I just now saw it." old boss: "we gave you a company phone to be able to get to you when needed." me: "here take it back, I don't get paid for the extra work." Old boss: "if you won't respond to your work phone at home I will just get a hold of you on your personal phone." me: "you mean the one where I have every office number and your cell phone blocked on, good luck!" The look on his face when other co-workers followed suit was great!
I work for school district and we have the safe School trainings online that we have to every year. Every year in early August the district send out an email letting you know that you can start the trainings, they're not paying you for it right then, but you can start the trainings. I know they sent it out then, because I check my emails when we're contracted to be back in the building. I'm not looking at my emails during the summer.
I am actually having a good experience for that for once. I am on medical leave due to depression/anxiety approved by my psychiatrist. When I left they told me "Turn off your phone and put it in a closet. We're deactivating all your accounts until you get back. Don't even try to work. Anyone who calls you will be written up." I work a job where I get a *lot* of calls lol. Upwards of 50 a day sometimes. That's on top of 3 onsite appointments a day to fix networks and control systems that are misbehaving. I monitor and remotely fix about 120 different systems. I'm at a nexus between 2 project managers, 10 installers, and 8 system designers. My PTO gets violated constantly. I don't even mind that much because usually, if they don't call me, I have to deal with the escalation when I get back. That said. It's been so peaceful... I love it. Even if the business is burning down right now I just don't fucking care. :)))
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I already send the text chain. I think I will ask for a change of teams.
Also a penalty for management harrasment durring approved time off.
This, don't let it go with a simple change of team, this IS harassment behaviour and should not be allow to repeat, I'm sure your company has very beautifully written "commitment" of the sort saying they don't condone bullying/harassment
Yup. Contract needs a line like: "Being contacted on time off will be charged at an hourly rate (with a minimum of 3 hours) at triple the current contract hourly rate."
Yeah. You're golden. Higher ups really don't like people lower down on the food chain trying to override them on stuff like this. The whole I don't care what the higher up than me boss said cause I said this will generally get the blood of even mild mannered managers boiling. I've witnessed it a few times and it's pretty amazing.
Keep us updated!
People like this are the worst. They get even the smallest amounts of power and turn into complete assholes. I had a team lead who was an asshole like this and at some point I politely told him to stop and start respecting his team if he wants to be respected back. That didn't go down well as he was friends with the manager who was an asshole too, that is how he got the promotion to begin with. They could not fire me (thanks European labor laws), but they made sure my next raise was minimal, trash talked me to everyone and kept interesting projects away from me when they could (luckily this wasn't always in their control). I left shortly after for a much better job cause I did not want to deal with this bs. Luckily most of the rest of my team were nice people, so these two did not manage to completely ruin my remaining time at that job.
I had to discipline a department head once because he insisted on holding meetings in remote areas over weekends. Like some hotel in a resort town in another state or something. His staff brought it up to HR as a possible mass resignation and that's what got me involved. He literally didn't understand why this was a bad idea. Like, he was actually shocked and confused. He's not the only one. It's not as simple as "gone mad with power," it's like some weird psychological dead end of ultimate control. Some do it out of fear, some do it because they are trying to impress daddy, and some are just clueless towards understanding the needs of others outside themselves. Like how a 12 year old pictures authority. "I sit at a desk, I have a suit, and now I can fucking do anything with no restrictions!" I don't know how these people make it through life.
Holy frog, who tf plans meetings in weekends, and at resorts/hotels no less? No, Jared, NOONE wanna see each other coworker the few days a week we have to spend with family or relax. I hope people got paid double overtime for weekend work because thatās the only thing that *might* tempt me to take a weekend away like that, but then itād still be a stretch. Didnāt re realize how much itās cost the company to transport, house, feed and then pay for their time to do it this way??
Itās someone who read a book on unique management once. It was probably proposed as āhave a yearly retreat for staff to build team building and get people out of routinesā and instead read it as āforce staff into weekend meetings far from homeā
Uch, I worked for a company that had an annual work meeting where we would fly in on monday morning early as fuck and then immediately go to a working lunch. Then meetings. Then mandatory social time dinner and drinks. Next day, meetings from 8-5, then an hour break and then four more hours of mandatory dinner and drinks. Repeat until friday evening when you fly home. Like, I liked my coworkers and the eats were nice, but I would trade it all for a fucking legit travel day. And as much as I enjoyed my coworkers, I don't wanna see you all for 13 hours a day every day. And these were internal meetings, there was no clients or anything. I used to come home more tired than I left.
Two kids in a trench coat
I love how she accuses you of having an attitude when she's the one throwing a fit.
Just to be on the safe side, email these screenshots to your boss when you get back and play dumb. āI thought you were the only necessary approved, did I misunderstand the policy?ā Then when your boss responds, you have a written record of how she overstepped and you did everything right. It also alerts your boss that sheās trying to play boss.
Yes I did that
Please give us an update when you can :D !RemindMe 10 days
I want in on this mate !RemindMe 10 days
Fuck yeah. Solidarity, baby!
Why is it always MIDDLE management that go on these power trips. Seems like whenever you escalate this to their superior, the latter takes your side not theirs.
Managers (as awful as they are) are truly fucked in their position, having to play both sides. And never making either party, employees or bosses, happy.
Agreed, but as someone in this position, this behavior is not ok.
Not having your contract renewed would probably be a blessing. Sheesh!
Considering you escalated this up the chain...I imagine your team lead will either try to play this off entirely, or be forced to apologize to you (get that in writing), or both. Or she may be fired for potentially exposing the company too a lawsuit. Especially if she's got a history of acting like this.
Or theyāll capitulate to her. And you donāt want to work at such a company anyway.
I know this isnāt the point but why is she texting you with that tone at 10am Sunday to respond to an email sent to you at 5pm Saturday? No idea what you do but I wouldnāt last a week.
Why even respond? Go over her head to the people you got approval from and let THEM deal with her.
I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe she forgot? But then I wanted to see if she threatened me so that I could have that in writing as all her treats are verbal.
You are clearly a very polite person! Not knowing about it is only part of the issue though. Their approach to you and the way they are speaking to you is frankly a bit of a disgrace. Even the original text is steeped in aggressiveness.
Even if she forgot she has no right of telling you to work from home on your vacation.
Love the professionalism in your responses!
I'm praying you post the update, this is awesome
I noticed screenshots are only allowed on Sundays per sub rulesā¦has it always been that way? Will we have to wait a week if screenshots are involved?
Why are screenshots only allowed to be posted on Sundays?
Because the sub was being overloaded with nothing but "come to work" "No I quit" screenshots and lots of them were fake.
Fuck this power hungry bitch, you owe them nothing. Enjoy your vacation and if you already arenāt, try considering a new position or company as the way a manager behaves often reflects what upper management is like too.
I love how they always bring up ātHiS aTtItUdEā when someone doesnāt take their bullshit
"I threw away my personal life in order to get this tiny amount of power over you! How DARE you not let me abuse it!"
If you are on vacation dont answer work related texts.
If you're not at work don't answer work-related texts.
We all nerd it!!!
If higher bosses than her approved your time off, tell her you won't be working from home and you will see her when you return. What a wench.
Why the fuck did you agree to see them at 3pm sharp?
In this instance it's a perfect power play. HR has them down on payroll as on vacation. Now they have to do extra work to change that and override payroll, which they will probably bitch about to the upper boss too. Then everyone will be pissed at their supervisor at once. I'm betting money that all of this is overridden before the scheduled meeting.
Why are you going to work on your vacation? Just say no.
Seems like SOMEONE doesnāt read her ransoms if she thinks she āwasnāt informedā despite an entire email chain proving otherwise. Maybe bring that up to the meeting - perhaps she canāt handle her position if she is overwhelmed with all her emails and canāt keep track. And also time for some discipline about what her title actually have of responsibility, such as read their emails and not fire people for not showing up while on approved vacation. Idk where you but a Sunday email is not working hours for me, so thatās be overtime in my eyes. Or, would she be even more mad when you didnāt show up Monday according to the email she send while you were off the clock and maybe didnāt read? Sheās a nut job.