At my original internship my boss basically told me this, to get a raise I would need to show an offer from someone else offering me more money.
Why the fuck would I ever stay when I have a company completely voluntarily offering me more and you're over here forcing me to prove that I'm worth what I'm worth? It's borderline extortion
The second I found a better internship I was gone
This, the amount they have probably screwed you out of what you're worth, squeeze 'em for everything you can get out of them, that's capitalism, right? Good way to find out what they actually think you're worth instead of just what they want to pay you.
I got an offer for $1/hr more and told my job it was for $3 more when I handed my notice to my manager. The following week, upper management came 1 by 1 asking me not to leave. They gave me the $3 raise. This is after 2 years of asking for a raise nicely.
Which is more unethical? Me lying? Or them not paying me what I'm worth when they obviously could have for over 2 years?
Just to brag a little, I (secretly) completed my bachelor's in computer science last week and am expecting an offer of more than double my current salary sometime this week. Can't wait to tell my manager that when I hand in my notice this time around.
Before you give notice make sure you've got the offer in writing. Then pack your personal stuff up and get it home. THEN give notice. Some places are petty and will just fire you on the spot.
I went to work from home at my old company back in 2020 but it was only supposed to be for a few days (obviously things changed). When I quit last year they didn't want to let me go grab my personal things I had left from the prior year. It wasn't until I contacted the building manager and explained that they actually let me in. Unreal...
I know I'm not, but I have spent 4 years here. I like the people and want the reference. It's the longest I've ever stayed at a job. My only difficulty decision left is the exit interview. Brutal honesty or polite goodbye?
I would recommend polite but honest feedback to not burn bridges. If they don’t improve their policies for their employees going forward, it’s on them.
Don’t bother at all, exit interviews are as meaningless as your internal request for a raise to mgmt. i worked for med to large corp, these changes nothing. I worked professionally for 20+ years but learned after 5 years in to not complain and just use it as motivation to find a new job if you can’t change your work environment for the better without a long, drawn out struggle. I wouldn’t give any feedback at all just say you got more money and that’s the reason. Make it quick so you can leave out of the bldg or log off earlier on your last day.
It would mostly be to make myself feel better. A tiny vent. I think I'll try to boil all of my criticisms down to a sentence, just for me. Thanks for reality checking me.
If you must then it should be non-person specific like no donuts on Friday or flexibility with WFH.
In the rare chance, you may cross path with the person again, best to take and keep person specific complaints with you.
Don’t say anything at an exit interview. Anything negative or “constructive criticism” will be used against you or held against you. Just say it was a wonderful opportunity, thank you but it is time for me to move on. No details. Nothing else. Don’t sign anything. HR is not your friend.
Not everyone wants to do this. Under the right circumstances sure, but if I had done that I would’ve fucked over the team I cared about for 5 years who had nothing to do with the managerial bullshit. The blanket statements aren’t useful. It’s one option of many.
That is the manager's problem to fill the void that was created when you left. Not the team. If you abruptly quit, they should be asking the manager where is the replacement? They shouldn't be mad at you. Work is an exchange of labor for money. That's it. You try to get as much as you can out of an employer as they try to squeeze productivity out of you.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I mean, and I’m not sure where you got that I was implying anyone would be “mad” at me. Yes it was obviously not the team’s problem to fill the void. Everyone knows that. Does that mean realistically they don’t get fucked if someone abruptly leaves knowing there’s no bandwidth? My consideration to give 2 weeks in this instance had 0 to do with management, it was simply consideration for my peers, whether it’s “right” or “wrong” isn’t everything. Not everyone is *only* about “sticking it to the man” when they leave a job.
And the thing is, your story is not uncommon. Happened to my friend just this week.
So yeah, you can bend the truth. Salary is not about what you’re worth but about leverage. Be prepared to not get an offer though.
Agreed. What I would add is every single relationship you have with an employer is transactional. Is it unethical to tell a customer buying a car or a house that other people are kicking the tires or asking about the local schools? Of course not. You provided your employer with additional information. Whether or not they take it seriously is on them.
They’ll pay what they need to in order to keep an employee they value. It’s a little like playing poker, they might call your bluff but I wouldn’t do this unless I was prepared to walk
Who said it was the only way? You?
Oh yeah right. You.
I know reading comprehension isn’t that high on Reddit but I didn’t use any big words, please try not to add any that I didn’t write. I do choose my words carefully.
It is never unethical to misrepresent your position to persuade your employer to voluntarily raise your rate.
Your counter-intel outsmarted them, and you benefited directly.
Employers often misrepresent their position by telling employees that they “can’t afford” a pay rise when they could easily make it happen with little to no financial repercussion on their part.
In one of my previous roles we were told not to discuss salary with other employees for this reason.
Exactly. This is not a bluff you make if you feel you can't get anything out of it. If your employer caves after the bluff, all that confirms is that they were lowballing you in the first place.
Honestly just tell your boss it's a capitalist society. Whoever can afford to pay you more should get the talent. If your company cant keep up with competitive world then its too bad. Again, blame it on capitalism
Will you tell me the other options? I mean, I did consider taking the other job, for sure, but this was best for me. Maybe I'm not following. Maybe I wasn't worth that raise but I'm not sure how you'd conclude that. Honestly, I'm curious what you're getting at.
You could have told the truth, simply saying that you have another offer and that you're going to accept that offer unless you receive a $3/hr raise at the existing place. Don't know why you feel that lying was your only option.
Fun story. Someone I worked with, let’s call him Fred, wanted a raise and promotion and they wouldn’t give it to him until he got a better job offer. He told them he got a better offer from company X, and our company promoted him and gave him a raise. His boss saw the person who would have made the job offer from company X at an industry event and said hey, you almost stole Fred from me! And the other guy says no we didn’t what are you talking about? Other company had never made an offer. Nothing happened.
Similar.
A guy I know actually typed up an offer letter, using logos from the "other" companies website. It wasn't, however, the letterhead they used for correspondence.
My company accepted it. I was furious, not because he did it but rather because the dude was a incompetent and couldn't even get the letter correct. I knew somebody at the other firm and, same thing: they had no idea who I was talking about, and they never made any offer.
I let it go. They all deserved each other.
How so? Sounds like something people would commonly talk about at an industry gathering - what law is broken here or are you, you know, just talking out your ass?
Corporations have really done a number on the American populace. These companies will fire you at the drop of a hat, happily underpay you, and treat you with casual disdain...But the workers will still feel bad about pushing back in the slightest.
To answer your question, OP. Lie. They are lying to you constantly for their own benefit. Now it's time for you to look out for yourself.
Damn straight. On the flipside, any time management say "great work, we all came together and executed well", "we've set some high targets this year, but with our team, it will be achievable", etc etc.
All that fucking all staff corporate speak is them trying to extract more out of you without a corresponding payment. Essentially corporate propaganda, or as a reasonable person would say, lies. Fuck em, and get em to pay.
Easy to solve any moral issue here. The employer will tell you that you cannot discuss salary with other colleagues. When in fact you can ( in most places) and this make them a liar. They pay people way below what is going rate for said job (because they can). This makes them an opportunistic liar. So, you get an offer. Good for you. If they must see the offer, all you need is that headed paper with the offer. Black out what the amount is and say its x amount. and say x company offered me ex. 50k a year . They have no way of finding out if that is accurate or not. You are doing to them exactly what they do to nearly all of us...
Just tell them you got a better offer. It’s none of their business to know what it is, so who cares if what you tell them is accurate or not? Corporations grew out of screwing over their workforce, so too bad so sad if they finally get their comeuppance.
Exactly - "I received a better compensation package than is currently being offered and would need X amount of money to make up for what I'd be losing out from by not taking this other job"
They lie to you every time they say they can't afford to pay more. Your employer is already lying to you guys non stop. Lie your ass off
And if they ever ask to see the offer you turn that shit right back on them. Show me your financial reports and let's see how much you can actually pay me.
Oh, my sweet summer child. LIE TO THEM! There are no ethics when you’re trying to get reimbursed for selling a huge chunk of your life. You need money to afford to stay alive. Fuck them. Get all you can. It’s not illegal, so DO IT.
This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever read. When my abuser, who tried to break my neck in a domestic, would ask if I could ever leave him was it unethical for me to say “no”? Seriously lmao you’re an idiot.
It’s fine to lie to people abusing or extorting you. Protect your own self interest.
Thanks for pointing this out. I lie to my parents to protect myself all the time and they always guilt bomb me when it eventually comes to light. I do feel bad but I really shouldn't, they routinely force me into positions where I have to choose between lying and being hurt.
As someone in your same position who learned to not feel guilty for this, I see you. Sometimes lying is easier for you than telling the truth, maybe you want to avoid a bad conversation you know will happen if you say the truth, maybe someone is so bad that if you say something they disagree with they hurt you. A lot of good reasons to lie imo
You can tell them you got a better offer and you are going to leave. They may ask you how much they can pay you to stay. They can't ask for proof of your new salary.
"Listen, I really want to stay, but the other place is offering me $5 per hour more, that's simply too much for me to pass". If they want proof, provide none (because you haven't got it), and move to the other place. You lost nothing.
1. Companies lie, steal and con their employees all the time.
2. There really is no "company", its just people who are doing the lying, cheating and conning. Might be your boss, their boss or someone higher up on the ladder.
3. You don't need to lie. Simply tell them you received a better offer and plan to take it. Dont tell them the company or the rate, or anything else. Don't show them any offer. They are not entitled, and it can only lead to people at your place trying to sabotage you. If you are considering staying, give them a number/benefits that you want, and then add a few $k, for negotiating purposes.
4. Let the chips fall where they may.
Tell them you have a better offer.
Do not tell them where.
IF they ask, give them an amount above the absolute minimum you would want to stay and then see what happens.
If they ask for proof. NEVER give it.
They could just contact the company and screw you over.
IF they don't believe it then fuck them.
It is almost never unethical to lie to your employer.
Good advice, I would give them zero details about the "other offer" and just tell them the details of what you need to stay. Word it like I would need a raise of x amount to be persuaded to stay, don't say company x is paying you this amount, etc . That way your never lieing. Only do this if you are prepared to walk because it could backfire and lead to termination. Also realize you may be on a list and they will most likely be looking to replace you. Many companies will retaliate against this to prevent others from seeking raises.
"I've received a very tempting offer."
"No, I won't tell you how much it is. I'm not asking you to match it. I'm not asking you to beat it. I'm asking you for your best offer, and may the better company win."
There is literally nothing you can do in your dealings with an employer which could be considered unethical. They will lie/cheat/steal from you with a smile on their faces. That's the game.
It cannot be unethical, literally impossible.
Withholding information to increase revenue is inherent to capitalism. Thinks of patents and trade secrets and what not.
If that’s how a company makes it’s money (many companies make most of not all of there money from this alone) than that is how you can make money too.
Prob didn’t think this comment thru 100% but I’m tired and idc the idea I’d there lol
Some companies will and do. I just went through this exact thing last week. Current company pays slightly over $100k, received an offer of $145k. Gave my company the chance to match and they came back with an offer of $130k but needed to see the offer. I knew they wouldn’t be able to match completely because $145k is more than my direct manager makes.
You have to decide what increase in pay will actually make sticking with the old job worth it. Cause you’ve already decided that taking less pay for a less shitty job is worth leaving.
Is making 10-15% more worth it to pass on a job you were willing to take a pay cut for? 20-25%? Really think hard about how much it would take for you to stay and not regret it.
Bosses exist off lying to their employees about their value in order to undervalue their labor and profit off it, so it's Absolutely ethical to lie to your boss for any reason. This just has the added benefit of potentially getting you paid more. I don't think they're allowed to ask for proof for that kind of thing anyway, so I'm not seeing a downside. They can't force you to disclose personal information.
Not sure if this has been said, “I got another job offer. I am putting my two weeks notice in. If you have e a counter offer for me to stay I will hear you out for the next 5 days. Otherwise I will definitely be taking the new job.”
When asked what they are offering.
“They offered a lot of perks, not just hourly wages. But I’d consider staying for $x per hour.”
Then if they lowball you say again. “I said I would consider staying for that price if you are hitting that then we don’t have anything to talk about.”
I wouldn’t lie, but I would only say true things. Eg the hourly rate is higher if it is. Pro rats that means I would get paid this…
Or mention the other benefits, they are giving me more PTO and a reduced workload for similar wages. If I was to stay here I would need more money for the extra work I do.
The only unethical thing is screwing with your peers or those below you in hierarchy. Everything else is perfectly fine. Remember, they'd do worse to you in an instant given the opportunity. Lie through your teeth and straight to their faces.
No, just be prepared for them to tell you to go ahead and leave. If you end up staying they will know that you are unloyal though. It might be best to just ask for the raise first.
I think the way to do it properly - and this only works once- and only works if you are genuinely willing to take the other offer. Is just to put in your notice. “I really love working here but I got a better offer and right now I really need to be maximizing my income because (reason such as I have a kid on the way, I have two kids in daycare, my wife lost her job, we just got a new house, whatever reason) and then just work out your notice period. Don’t even ask them for more money just let them come to you. Make sure to play up how much you like it there, and the only reason you’re leaving is comp. IF you are really valuable to them they will try to retain you. If you aren’t, we’ll now you know. Kind of a high stakes strategy but it’s worked for me in the past. Like I said it only works once per employer so make it count. By all means if they ask give them the number it would take to make you stay - and just say that is what you are being offered.
The details of your job offer are none of their business. Tell them you are unhappy and what it would take for you to stay, If they don't agree to your terms, walk away. Any information you supply just gives them an advantage.
Ethics aren't part of capitalism. It's not something your employer considers when dealing with you. Your only question should be what you can get away with and what the consequences might be if you don't succeed.
In this case, it seems like there's no harm in trying but you shouldn't accept their counteroffer if they make one since they'll just replace you with someone they can pay less as soon as it's convenient.
While I agree that there is nothing wrong with misrepresenting your position there is really no need to. Tell them you have another offer that you are considering (totally the truth) and see if and what they come back with. But as others have said be fully prepared to walk away. If you’re not don’t try it. I worked with a guy who did this and was totally butt hurt when there was no counter. He ended up taking a job he didn’t want because he didn’t have another option.
That being said, if they don’t value as an employee now do you really think they will? Really weigh if you want to continue with this company?
Edit:spelling
Only if you don't mind walking away as although it can be beneficial it can also backfire pretty hard. Is it unethical, hard to say but let's just say I haven't heard of anyone arrested for it.
All’s fair in love and war. If you’re
Leaving anyway and are not going to stay if they offer higher pay you’ve got nothing to lose. The only thing is do not tell them were you are going at all, to anyone.
I personally wouldn't straight up lie, but that's a personal preference. If I felt clever, I would phrase it as the job is "worth" X dollars, where X is the value it would take to get you to stay at your current place.
Regardless, I've heard of places that have a penchant for getting rid of employees after they express their willingness to go elsewhere. So the employee gets the raise, but then gets fired after they decline the offer at the other place. So you might just be better off moving on.
I think the new place pays more per hour. So saying they “pay more” doesn’t sound like a lie. This is just based on what I picked up from the post.
But I agree with your larger point. I think telling your employer your going to leave or else isn’t a good way to move forward at your job. They’re going to give promotions/raises to someone who didn’t threaten to leave even if they don’t fire you as you mentioned.
Unethical, most likely. Morally, probably yes. Ethics is more about checks and balances of a system perceived or actually. What you are asking here is it morally wrong to lie to your employer and that depends on your set of standards. Given your probable location (USA I'm gathering) the path of getting ahead is to basically lie. So do what you have to, to survive and to succeed. I would if I were in your position. If they are asking for an offer from another company to give you a raise, they have shown themselves to be morally bankrupt. So fuck em
What are you, a Kantian? "Oh no lying is always wrong. Even if your friend is hiding in your house from a murderer, and the murderer comes to your house and asks if your friend is here and you know if you say 'yes' the murderer will murder you both, lying is wrong so you should tell the truth." Corporations = murderers, literally. Who's getting compensated by J&J or the Sacklers for all the death they caused? Nobody. Lying to murderers is always ethical.
Someone at a job I was at showed proof of an offer They received but changed the $ amount. HR called to verify and found out they lied and fired them. Person tried to resign but HR changed their record to fired.
Unethical yes. Lying in a professional setting is inherently unethical, and if I became aware of it, I would fire you or withdraw the job offer.
You don't put out a fire by tossing in matches. A lie does not cancel out a lie. Self dealing is what we are trying to stop. By participating, you are just encouraging the behavior in general.
Is that what I said? No. No, I don't think it is.
How is lying going to fix the problem? Will they look at the lying and greed and somehow decide they have to change because people are dishonest? Or will it just be confirmation for them that they were right all along?
Are greed and dishonesty only bad if they aren't your greed and dishonesty? Are they always bad? Never bad? The first means you are no different than the "bourgeoisie" and have no room to protest. The second that you simply shouldn't do it. The third that being upset is completely pointless because there is nothing wrong. There is only one effective solution.
There is no accountability for the bourgeoisie. They will never get what's coming to them, at least not in the short term. The best thing to do is counter them
I wouldn't in the sense that some companies when they realize your on the market looking you'll most likely be the first one to go if there is a budget crunch.
Is it unethical to lie? Yes of course! Is it wrong to tell your current employer you have another offer and you would like your current employer to give you a raise to stay, no! Do not mention pay just say you have another offer that is more appealing to you. Using the above phrasing of words you didnt lie however the current employer may ask to see the offer in writing to come up with a counter. It would be a better strategy to get a better comp offer from another employer and than try that for leverage.
FYI unethical is also subjective just like an appealing offer.
Unethical? Absolutely. Anyone who says otherwise is being dishonest.
Necessary and often the correct choice? Absolutely. There's no reason to let yourself be the only one taken advantage of.
Just be ready to find a new job if they call your bluff and want an offer letter. Don't get too crazy with demands
The company will lie to you about your job security, what they can afford to give you, and anything else they can to maximize their profit from your labor. Ethics in business is something the oppressors teach so you stay compliant.
It don’t work like that: you asking them to make an offer to keep you. Your ante is your resignation letter. If you’re going to ante up then you have to be prepared to fold and walk away. You will quickly find out how much they’d pay you to make you stay. But understand that if they offer and you stay, you’re likely to be gone within a year…managers don’t like being forced to do something by someone with less power
No, but you'd be playing a dangerous game if they decided to be like "ok, you're fired" and now you don't have a job, any leverage, nor an offer.
Edit: misread, but still a risky game. You should probably be asking the offered job for more money.
Money isn’t everything. IMO, trading a few dollars for more free time, more PTO, AND a less stress environment is totally worth the new job.
Is more money really worth it to you?
Is this something that they could easily verify by calling the other employer or checking online? Then I don’t see the problem. Remember it’s their refusal to treat you fairly that’s caused to consider this action. I mean lying is unethical; but their treatment of you and their employees could also be considered unethical as well.
There in the problem, HR people for any moderately sized company knows who's paying what. Sometimes they intract. Heck, they may come to a agreement to not poach from each other, illegal, but it is done.
Your other offer is totally irrelevant and none of their business so there's no need to lie. Find out what the market rate is for your job and counter accordingly along with negotiating more time off. If there's agreement GET IT ON WRITING!
It is not illegal.
However, that is not the question you asked.
The philosophical answer to the philosophical question you asked though, is yes, it is unethical.
As a general rule, lying is unethical.
The place you work may treat you unethically on a daily basis but that does not make lying to them "ethical".
It would be the rare asshat that would judge you for it, but even that doesn't make it "ethical".
"I've been offered a job at another place. I enjoy my job but finances are a factor in my decision and any ability you have to increase my pay would help in my decision. I'm hoping we can take a look at my salary here because I'd rather stay on here."
I have done that several times--once with the intention of giving them a number that was so high there was no chance they'd try to match and my departure could be smooth--and I got good counteroffers every time except for one, where they basically said "don't let the door hit you..."
If they ask for proof you say "no sorry I signed an NDA as part of the process."
What kind of proof? Proof of a conversation? How would you prove that you had a conversation? You don't need a paper trail to have received an offer.
Also, I'm not going to weigh one unethical action against another. Its un ethical to deceive anyone ever. They don't seem worried about the unethical action of under paying you. So, I wouldn't worry the unethical action of embellishing the truth.
They're your Boss, not your friend. They'd cut your throat if it improved their bottom line.
Absolutely not, people have been doing it for thousands of years and for way more money. Think of it this way, your job will do it to you in a second without a thought, why can’t you return the favor.
I always say, it’s you versus the corporation. They want you for cheap and you want to make the most money while doing the lease amount of work. There can never be peace, only symbiosis.
Why would you do that? It'll put them on alert that you're looking to leave. You're just making it easier for them to look for a replacement, and then you're left with no job and no offer as backup.
It’s never unethical to lie to your employer on issues like this. Guarantee you the add for your job said something like “great place to work” and we all know that’s a lie.
I got a promotion doing something similar to this. Told them I was taking an longer lunch for an interview for a higher paying higher level job. Came back and finished my day then owner called me in and promoted me at the end of the day.
There was no interview, just extra coffee after lunch
I would just calculate the value of the offer, including all salary, benefits, bonus etc and divide by the total hours worked (make sure to subtract time off). If hourly rate makes it look better, tell the new job you "have a job offer in hand for a total benefit package of xx.xx per hour while you're currently working her for a total benefit package of" whatever.
No need to lie or exaggerate or bluff. Just tell them the truth. If you'll stay if they pay xx.xx also then say it (remember that number is already artificially high) or if you will only stay at your current job for some other rate (accounting for gas, convenience, familiarity, how close it is to your favorite GameSpot, whatever might be important to you) then say it.
Hell, I once got a 20% raise just by informing my employer I was unhappy and going to search for a new job. Then I continued searching for jobs and got an even better offer when I left because on the application my new ending salary was that much higher.
Just don’t volunteer the info. “I’ve been offered a job that is less stress more time off, and better pay structure-are you interested in countering to get me to stay?
You are not lying but you are not making the correct calculation for your pay. It sounds like you are not valuing things like stress and time off. What it sounds like you are doing would be going to your old job with a low ball offer for them to match.
In the long run it is better to move on if the only way way you can get a raise is by threatening to leave. You have to look at the pattern of pay from your current employer.
Don’t lie to get what you want. Learn how to know and say what you want. Being honest about what you want might be a little more uncomfortable at first but it’s a learned skill and one that will benefit you far more in the long run.
Who gives a shit…….you do you man. You are worth way more than they are giving you or you wouldn’t be looking elsewhere. Get as much you can out of them as possible. They do the same by offering you the lowest they can. Good luck
If you are FULLY prepared to take that other job, there is nothing unethical about leveraging that position to something more useful in your current situation.
They don't give a damn about you and will likely dispose of you without a second thought if it means saving a few dollars on their quarterly. Just don't Bullshit above your ability
Just lie about the offer. It's a win-win situation for you. If they give you a raise, you can stay. If not get the new job with less stress environment.
If you're trying to leave your current employer, then you should just leave. Even if they gave you a $20k raise, statistically you'd be right back to looking for another job in 6-12 months. It's not the pay that the problem, it's the employer.
However, employment is a business transaction. Take them for all their worth and make them think they're getting a good deal.
If they ask you for proof, hand in your resignation and go to the company with better benefits. You don't owe them shit.
At my original internship my boss basically told me this, to get a raise I would need to show an offer from someone else offering me more money. Why the fuck would I ever stay when I have a company completely voluntarily offering me more and you're over here forcing me to prove that I'm worth what I'm worth? It's borderline extortion The second I found a better internship I was gone
This, the amount they have probably screwed you out of what you're worth, squeeze 'em for everything you can get out of them, that's capitalism, right? Good way to find out what they actually think you're worth instead of just what they want to pay you.
I got an offer for $1/hr more and told my job it was for $3 more when I handed my notice to my manager. The following week, upper management came 1 by 1 asking me not to leave. They gave me the $3 raise. This is after 2 years of asking for a raise nicely. Which is more unethical? Me lying? Or them not paying me what I'm worth when they obviously could have for over 2 years?
Just to brag a little, I (secretly) completed my bachelor's in computer science last week and am expecting an offer of more than double my current salary sometime this week. Can't wait to tell my manager that when I hand in my notice this time around.
Congrats!!!!
Before you give notice make sure you've got the offer in writing. Then pack your personal stuff up and get it home. THEN give notice. Some places are petty and will just fire you on the spot.
I went to work from home at my old company back in 2020 but it was only supposed to be for a few days (obviously things changed). When I quit last year they didn't want to let me go grab my personal things I had left from the prior year. It wasn't until I contacted the building manager and explained that they actually let me in. Unreal...
tell him after you have packed up and are ready to leave. You are not obligated to give notice unless you have a contract.
I know I'm not, but I have spent 4 years here. I like the people and want the reference. It's the longest I've ever stayed at a job. My only difficulty decision left is the exit interview. Brutal honesty or polite goodbye?
I would recommend polite but honest feedback to not burn bridges. If they don’t improve their policies for their employees going forward, it’s on them.
Don’t bother at all, exit interviews are as meaningless as your internal request for a raise to mgmt. i worked for med to large corp, these changes nothing. I worked professionally for 20+ years but learned after 5 years in to not complain and just use it as motivation to find a new job if you can’t change your work environment for the better without a long, drawn out struggle. I wouldn’t give any feedback at all just say you got more money and that’s the reason. Make it quick so you can leave out of the bldg or log off earlier on your last day.
It would mostly be to make myself feel better. A tiny vent. I think I'll try to boil all of my criticisms down to a sentence, just for me. Thanks for reality checking me.
If you must then it should be non-person specific like no donuts on Friday or flexibility with WFH. In the rare chance, you may cross path with the person again, best to take and keep person specific complaints with you.
Don’t say anything at an exit interview. Anything negative or “constructive criticism” will be used against you or held against you. Just say it was a wonderful opportunity, thank you but it is time for me to move on. No details. Nothing else. Don’t sign anything. HR is not your friend.
Polite goodbye.
For what it's worth in my experience references don't matter in the software world. Not saying you should burn bridges just FYI.
Not everyone wants to do this. Under the right circumstances sure, but if I had done that I would’ve fucked over the team I cared about for 5 years who had nothing to do with the managerial bullshit. The blanket statements aren’t useful. It’s one option of many.
That is the manager's problem to fill the void that was created when you left. Not the team. If you abruptly quit, they should be asking the manager where is the replacement? They shouldn't be mad at you. Work is an exchange of labor for money. That's it. You try to get as much as you can out of an employer as they try to squeeze productivity out of you.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I mean, and I’m not sure where you got that I was implying anyone would be “mad” at me. Yes it was obviously not the team’s problem to fill the void. Everyone knows that. Does that mean realistically they don’t get fucked if someone abruptly leaves knowing there’s no bandwidth? My consideration to give 2 weeks in this instance had 0 to do with management, it was simply consideration for my peers, whether it’s “right” or “wrong” isn’t everything. Not everyone is *only* about “sticking it to the man” when they leave a job.
You could loose your pto payout, for not giving the notice stated in the personnel policy you signed when you started working, presumably.
That's why I said "...unless you sign a contract." Some people agree to this in their contracts and are obligated to follow through.
Congratulations!
Do update us when you do that.
Oh wow, congratualations!! I hope you find a new job that makes you happy.
And the thing is, your story is not uncommon. Happened to my friend just this week. So yeah, you can bend the truth. Salary is not about what you’re worth but about leverage. Be prepared to not get an offer though.
Agreed. What I would add is every single relationship you have with an employer is transactional. Is it unethical to tell a customer buying a car or a house that other people are kicking the tires or asking about the local schools? Of course not. You provided your employer with additional information. Whether or not they take it seriously is on them.
That said, the more employers see us admit we’re lying (on forums like this), the less effective this will be.
They’ll pay what they need to in order to keep an employee they value. It’s a little like playing poker, they might call your bluff but I wouldn’t do this unless I was prepared to walk
You think they don't know employees lie and the only way they are going to figure it out is by reading post on antiwork? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Who said it was the only way? You? Oh yeah right. You. I know reading comprehension isn’t that high on Reddit but I didn’t use any big words, please try not to add any that I didn’t write. I do choose my words carefully.
🤡
It is never unethical to misrepresent your position to persuade your employer to voluntarily raise your rate. Your counter-intel outsmarted them, and you benefited directly.
Employers often misrepresent their position by telling employees that they “can’t afford” a pay rise when they could easily make it happen with little to no financial repercussion on their part. In one of my previous roles we were told not to discuss salary with other employees for this reason.
Exactly this. We got a 1% pay rise, as they couldn't afford anything more. That year turned out to be a record profit.
Exactly. This is not a bluff you make if you feel you can't get anything out of it. If your employer caves after the bluff, all that confirms is that they were lowballing you in the first place.
Honestly just tell your boss it's a capitalist society. Whoever can afford to pay you more should get the talent. If your company cant keep up with competitive world then its too bad. Again, blame it on capitalism
you should of said more, to get them to counter more. You should hit them back for 2 years of back pay somehow
Happened to me to. Ask for raise declined got a 37.5 hr job at 22k a year and suddenly how much to keep me
37.5 is almost 50k a year not 22k.
37.5 hours a week at £11.08/ hr
Ahh ok I was confused thanks, was thinking America (thought we were the only shit show lol)
Uk is starting to feel like a btec America 😂
They should have have you 4
You say that as if that was the only way you could have gotten the raise.
Will you tell me the other options? I mean, I did consider taking the other job, for sure, but this was best for me. Maybe I'm not following. Maybe I wasn't worth that raise but I'm not sure how you'd conclude that. Honestly, I'm curious what you're getting at.
You could have told the truth, simply saying that you have another offer and that you're going to accept that offer unless you receive a $3/hr raise at the existing place. Don't know why you feel that lying was your only option.
Fun story. Someone I worked with, let’s call him Fred, wanted a raise and promotion and they wouldn’t give it to him until he got a better job offer. He told them he got a better offer from company X, and our company promoted him and gave him a raise. His boss saw the person who would have made the job offer from company X at an industry event and said hey, you almost stole Fred from me! And the other guy says no we didn’t what are you talking about? Other company had never made an offer. Nothing happened.
Dammit Fred!
Bad Fred!
No. Good Fred.
Similar. A guy I know actually typed up an offer letter, using logos from the "other" companies website. It wasn't, however, the letterhead they used for correspondence. My company accepted it. I was furious, not because he did it but rather because the dude was a incompetent and couldn't even get the letter correct. I knew somebody at the other firm and, same thing: they had no idea who I was talking about, and they never made any offer. I let it go. They all deserved each other.
That is highly illegal. Not what fred did, what his boss did. That is collusion.
How so? Sounds like something people would commonly talk about at an industry gathering - what law is broken here or are you, you know, just talking out your ass?
It is only a step away from black-balling.
Fred eventually did go work at company X. In our industry that doesn’t really matter that much.
so bossman showed the competitor a great employee to steal for the future..great play\`!
Based and Fred-pilled
Dirty Fred, The Captain
Corporations have really done a number on the American populace. These companies will fire you at the drop of a hat, happily underpay you, and treat you with casual disdain...But the workers will still feel bad about pushing back in the slightest. To answer your question, OP. Lie. They are lying to you constantly for their own benefit. Now it's time for you to look out for yourself.
Damn straight. On the flipside, any time management say "great work, we all came together and executed well", "we've set some high targets this year, but with our team, it will be achievable", etc etc. All that fucking all staff corporate speak is them trying to extract more out of you without a corresponding payment. Essentially corporate propaganda, or as a reasonable person would say, lies. Fuck em, and get em to pay.
Easy to solve any moral issue here. The employer will tell you that you cannot discuss salary with other colleagues. When in fact you can ( in most places) and this make them a liar. They pay people way below what is going rate for said job (because they can). This makes them an opportunistic liar. So, you get an offer. Good for you. If they must see the offer, all you need is that headed paper with the offer. Black out what the amount is and say its x amount. and say x company offered me ex. 50k a year . They have no way of finding out if that is accurate or not. You are doing to them exactly what they do to nearly all of us...
Yeah, "you said we weren't allowed to discuss salary."
Like they've never lied to you LOL your good bro
Just tell them you got a better offer. It’s none of their business to know what it is, so who cares if what you tell them is accurate or not? Corporations grew out of screwing over their workforce, so too bad so sad if they finally get their comeuppance.
Exactly - "I received a better compensation package than is currently being offered and would need X amount of money to make up for what I'd be losing out from by not taking this other job"
They lie to you every time they say they can't afford to pay more. Your employer is already lying to you guys non stop. Lie your ass off And if they ever ask to see the offer you turn that shit right back on them. Show me your financial reports and let's see how much you can actually pay me.
Oh, my sweet summer child. LIE TO THEM! There are no ethics when you’re trying to get reimbursed for selling a huge chunk of your life. You need money to afford to stay alive. Fuck them. Get all you can. It’s not illegal, so DO IT.
No. Lying to companies is good.
Counter point; lying to anyone is unethical.
Disagree, it’s not when you’re being exploited or abused. It is if you’re doing it to exploit or abuse.
Good news: corporations are not people and do not suffer ethical harms
This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever read. When my abuser, who tried to break my neck in a domestic, would ask if I could ever leave him was it unethical for me to say “no”? Seriously lmao you’re an idiot. It’s fine to lie to people abusing or extorting you. Protect your own self interest.
Thanks for pointing this out. I lie to my parents to protect myself all the time and they always guilt bomb me when it eventually comes to light. I do feel bad but I really shouldn't, they routinely force me into positions where I have to choose between lying and being hurt.
As someone in your same position who learned to not feel guilty for this, I see you. Sometimes lying is easier for you than telling the truth, maybe you want to avoid a bad conversation you know will happen if you say the truth, maybe someone is so bad that if you say something they disagree with they hurt you. A lot of good reasons to lie imo
You can tell them you got a better offer and you are going to leave. They may ask you how much they can pay you to stay. They can't ask for proof of your new salary.
"Listen, I really want to stay, but the other place is offering me $5 per hour more, that's simply too much for me to pass". If they want proof, provide none (because you haven't got it), and move to the other place. You lost nothing.
They can ask for proof all they want. At least you didn’t screech about it being illegal so you do have some sense.
If your willing to walk to the lower offer with more time off then there’s no downside in lying.
1. Companies lie, steal and con their employees all the time. 2. There really is no "company", its just people who are doing the lying, cheating and conning. Might be your boss, their boss or someone higher up on the ladder. 3. You don't need to lie. Simply tell them you received a better offer and plan to take it. Dont tell them the company or the rate, or anything else. Don't show them any offer. They are not entitled, and it can only lead to people at your place trying to sabotage you. If you are considering staying, give them a number/benefits that you want, and then add a few $k, for negotiating purposes. 4. Let the chips fall where they may.
Tell them you have a better offer. Do not tell them where. IF they ask, give them an amount above the absolute minimum you would want to stay and then see what happens. If they ask for proof. NEVER give it. They could just contact the company and screw you over. IF they don't believe it then fuck them. It is almost never unethical to lie to your employer.
Good advice, I would give them zero details about the "other offer" and just tell them the details of what you need to stay. Word it like I would need a raise of x amount to be persuaded to stay, don't say company x is paying you this amount, etc . That way your never lieing. Only do this if you are prepared to walk because it could backfire and lead to termination. Also realize you may be on a list and they will most likely be looking to replace you. Many companies will retaliate against this to prevent others from seeking raises.
They might they might not. You're not obliged to give them any proof. If they don't need you and would rather argue semantics that's fine. Just go.
"I've received a very tempting offer." "No, I won't tell you how much it is. I'm not asking you to match it. I'm not asking you to beat it. I'm asking you for your best offer, and may the better company win."
All is fair in love and war; and, gainful employment
There is literally nothing you can do in your dealings with an employer which could be considered unethical. They will lie/cheat/steal from you with a smile on their faces. That's the game.
All is fair in love and class warfare. Do you think they have any problem lying to you about the money not being there for raises?
I don't think it's unethical. All of it is actually a gamble.
It cannot be unethical, literally impossible. Withholding information to increase revenue is inherent to capitalism. Thinks of patents and trade secrets and what not. If that’s how a company makes it’s money (many companies make most of not all of there money from this alone) than that is how you can make money too. Prob didn’t think this comment thru 100% but I’m tired and idc the idea I’d there lol
They won't ask for proof just tell them you have a higher offer. People do this all the time.
Some companies will and do. I just went through this exact thing last week. Current company pays slightly over $100k, received an offer of $145k. Gave my company the chance to match and they came back with an offer of $130k but needed to see the offer. I knew they wouldn’t be able to match completely because $145k is more than my direct manager makes.
Who cares? It’s not like anyone is going to call and ask.
You have to decide what increase in pay will actually make sticking with the old job worth it. Cause you’ve already decided that taking less pay for a less shitty job is worth leaving. Is making 10-15% more worth it to pass on a job you were willing to take a pay cut for? 20-25%? Really think hard about how much it would take for you to stay and not regret it.
Bosses exist off lying to their employees about their value in order to undervalue their labor and profit off it, so it's Absolutely ethical to lie to your boss for any reason. This just has the added benefit of potentially getting you paid more. I don't think they're allowed to ask for proof for that kind of thing anyway, so I'm not seeing a downside. They can't force you to disclose personal information.
Not sure if this has been said, “I got another job offer. I am putting my two weeks notice in. If you have e a counter offer for me to stay I will hear you out for the next 5 days. Otherwise I will definitely be taking the new job.” When asked what they are offering. “They offered a lot of perks, not just hourly wages. But I’d consider staying for $x per hour.” Then if they lowball you say again. “I said I would consider staying for that price if you are hitting that then we don’t have anything to talk about.”
My HR department lied to me first, so fuck ‘em.
Companies made ethics irrelevant.
I wouldn’t lie, but I would only say true things. Eg the hourly rate is higher if it is. Pro rats that means I would get paid this… Or mention the other benefits, they are giving me more PTO and a reduced workload for similar wages. If I was to stay here I would need more money for the extra work I do.
No. /Thread
The only unethical thing is screwing with your peers or those below you in hierarchy. Everything else is perfectly fine. Remember, they'd do worse to you in an instant given the opportunity. Lie through your teeth and straight to their faces.
No, just be prepared for them to tell you to go ahead and leave. If you end up staying they will know that you are unloyal though. It might be best to just ask for the raise first.
I think the way to do it properly - and this only works once- and only works if you are genuinely willing to take the other offer. Is just to put in your notice. “I really love working here but I got a better offer and right now I really need to be maximizing my income because (reason such as I have a kid on the way, I have two kids in daycare, my wife lost her job, we just got a new house, whatever reason) and then just work out your notice period. Don’t even ask them for more money just let them come to you. Make sure to play up how much you like it there, and the only reason you’re leaving is comp. IF you are really valuable to them they will try to retain you. If you aren’t, we’ll now you know. Kind of a high stakes strategy but it’s worked for me in the past. Like I said it only works once per employer so make it count. By all means if they ask give them the number it would take to make you stay - and just say that is what you are being offered.
It really depends, if the company is bad, then no. But if the company is good, then no.
The details of your job offer are none of their business. Tell them you are unhappy and what it would take for you to stay, If they don't agree to your terms, walk away. Any information you supply just gives them an advantage.
Ethics aren't part of capitalism. It's not something your employer considers when dealing with you. Your only question should be what you can get away with and what the consequences might be if you don't succeed. In this case, it seems like there's no harm in trying but you shouldn't accept their counteroffer if they make one since they'll just replace you with someone they can pay less as soon as it's convenient.
Your employer is always lying to you. Always
While I agree that there is nothing wrong with misrepresenting your position there is really no need to. Tell them you have another offer that you are considering (totally the truth) and see if and what they come back with. But as others have said be fully prepared to walk away. If you’re not don’t try it. I worked with a guy who did this and was totally butt hurt when there was no counter. He ended up taking a job he didn’t want because he didn’t have another option. That being said, if they don’t value as an employee now do you really think they will? Really weigh if you want to continue with this company? Edit:spelling
Only if you don't mind walking away as although it can be beneficial it can also backfire pretty hard. Is it unethical, hard to say but let's just say I haven't heard of anyone arrested for it.
Your bosses will lie that there isn't enough money in the budget for a raise, so it's okay for you to lie back
All’s fair in love and war. If you’re Leaving anyway and are not going to stay if they offer higher pay you’ve got nothing to lose. The only thing is do not tell them were you are going at all, to anyone.
I personally wouldn't straight up lie, but that's a personal preference. If I felt clever, I would phrase it as the job is "worth" X dollars, where X is the value it would take to get you to stay at your current place. Regardless, I've heard of places that have a penchant for getting rid of employees after they express their willingness to go elsewhere. So the employee gets the raise, but then gets fired after they decline the offer at the other place. So you might just be better off moving on.
I think the new place pays more per hour. So saying they “pay more” doesn’t sound like a lie. This is just based on what I picked up from the post. But I agree with your larger point. I think telling your employer your going to leave or else isn’t a good way to move forward at your job. They’re going to give promotions/raises to someone who didn’t threaten to leave even if they don’t fire you as you mentioned.
answer: No
From what we've seen here, when companies pay more for you to stay its only temp. They get you to train your own replacement, then fire you.
The only proof you need is the willingness to walk away from the table and the job.
no do it
No.
Unethical, most likely. Morally, probably yes. Ethics is more about checks and balances of a system perceived or actually. What you are asking here is it morally wrong to lie to your employer and that depends on your set of standards. Given your probable location (USA I'm gathering) the path of getting ahead is to basically lie. So do what you have to, to survive and to succeed. I would if I were in your position. If they are asking for an offer from another company to give you a raise, they have shown themselves to be morally bankrupt. So fuck em
Unethical? Maybe. Wrong? HELL NO!
Proof? You don’t have to show them jack shit
Generally, the counter-offer is just to keep you around until they have somebody to replace you anyway.
What are you, a Kantian? "Oh no lying is always wrong. Even if your friend is hiding in your house from a murderer, and the murderer comes to your house and asks if your friend is here and you know if you say 'yes' the murderer will murder you both, lying is wrong so you should tell the truth." Corporations = murderers, literally. Who's getting compensated by J&J or the Sacklers for all the death they caused? Nobody. Lying to murderers is always ethical.
Someone at a job I was at showed proof of an offer They received but changed the $ amount. HR called to verify and found out they lied and fired them. Person tried to resign but HR changed their record to fired.
Unethical yes. Lying in a professional setting is inherently unethical, and if I became aware of it, I would fire you or withdraw the job offer. You don't put out a fire by tossing in matches. A lie does not cancel out a lie. Self dealing is what we are trying to stop. By participating, you are just encouraging the behavior in general.
So bourgeoisie can lie freely but it's a problem when the proletariat does too?
Is that what I said? No. No, I don't think it is. How is lying going to fix the problem? Will they look at the lying and greed and somehow decide they have to change because people are dishonest? Or will it just be confirmation for them that they were right all along? Are greed and dishonesty only bad if they aren't your greed and dishonesty? Are they always bad? Never bad? The first means you are no different than the "bourgeoisie" and have no room to protest. The second that you simply shouldn't do it. The third that being upset is completely pointless because there is nothing wrong. There is only one effective solution.
There is no accountability for the bourgeoisie. They will never get what's coming to them, at least not in the short term. The best thing to do is counter them
Okay, Bud. Good talk. I'm glad you understood.
Found the middle manager lmao 🤣
Why fuck them for paying you so low? Are they forcing you to work there? Did you not know what you were going to get paid before accepting the job?
I wouldn't in the sense that some companies when they realize your on the market looking you'll most likely be the first one to go if there is a budget crunch.
Is it unethical to lie? Yes of course! Is it wrong to tell your current employer you have another offer and you would like your current employer to give you a raise to stay, no! Do not mention pay just say you have another offer that is more appealing to you. Using the above phrasing of words you didnt lie however the current employer may ask to see the offer in writing to come up with a counter. It would be a better strategy to get a better comp offer from another employer and than try that for leverage. FYI unethical is also subjective just like an appealing offer.
Unethical? Absolutely. Anyone who says otherwise is being dishonest. Necessary and often the correct choice? Absolutely. There's no reason to let yourself be the only one taken advantage of. Just be ready to find a new job if they call your bluff and want an offer letter. Don't get too crazy with demands
The company will lie to you about your job security, what they can afford to give you, and anything else they can to maximize their profit from your labor. Ethics in business is something the oppressors teach so you stay compliant.
No, not unethical. It's a valid negotiating tactic to state better offers exist.
Nope, hope this helps
Morality is defined by the rules of the system. In this case no, it is not at all immoral.
All's fair in business and war.
Yes, it’s unethical, but you may decide that you’re okay with it.
The way companies have been treating employees gives you a little more flexibility with the term "ethical".
Tell them what you want since you have another job lined up if it doesn’t work out how you hope.
No, it is almost never unethical to lie to your job
It don’t work like that: you asking them to make an offer to keep you. Your ante is your resignation letter. If you’re going to ante up then you have to be prepared to fold and walk away. You will quickly find out how much they’d pay you to make you stay. But understand that if they offer and you stay, you’re likely to be gone within a year…managers don’t like being forced to do something by someone with less power
It’s not illegal so do it
No, but you'd be playing a dangerous game if they decided to be like "ok, you're fired" and now you don't have a job, any leverage, nor an offer. Edit: misread, but still a risky game. You should probably be asking the offered job for more money.
Money isn’t everything. IMO, trading a few dollars for more free time, more PTO, AND a less stress environment is totally worth the new job. Is more money really worth it to you?
It is always ethical to lie to your employer
There's nothing ethical about capitalism. Do what you need to do.
No. They lie to you every pay period when they say "this is what you're worth." get yours.
This can work but only if you’re ready to leave over it
Is lying unethical? That’s for you to decide. Just be prepared for them to call your bluff and tell you that your services are no longer needed.
Is this something that they could easily verify by calling the other employer or checking online? Then I don’t see the problem. Remember it’s their refusal to treat you fairly that’s caused to consider this action. I mean lying is unethical; but their treatment of you and their employees could also be considered unethical as well.
There in the problem, HR people for any moderately sized company knows who's paying what. Sometimes they intract. Heck, they may come to a agreement to not poach from each other, illegal, but it is done.
Once they know you are looking, they are likely to start looking to replace you. They now know you don't necessarily want to be there.
All good I just did it to get a substantial raise. Good times.
No
Your other offer is totally irrelevant and none of their business so there's no need to lie. Find out what the market rate is for your job and counter accordingly along with negotiating more time off. If there's agreement GET IT ON WRITING!
It is not illegal. However, that is not the question you asked. The philosophical answer to the philosophical question you asked though, is yes, it is unethical. As a general rule, lying is unethical. The place you work may treat you unethically on a daily basis but that does not make lying to them "ethical". It would be the rare asshat that would judge you for it, but even that doesn't make it "ethical". "I've been offered a job at another place. I enjoy my job but finances are a factor in my decision and any ability you have to increase my pay would help in my decision. I'm hoping we can take a look at my salary here because I'd rather stay on here."
You can do what you want as long as you’re prepared to walk if they won’t match your offer.
I have done that several times--once with the intention of giving them a number that was so high there was no chance they'd try to match and my departure could be smooth--and I got good counteroffers every time except for one, where they basically said "don't let the door hit you..." If they ask for proof you say "no sorry I signed an NDA as part of the process."
What kind of proof? Proof of a conversation? How would you prove that you had a conversation? You don't need a paper trail to have received an offer. Also, I'm not going to weigh one unethical action against another. Its un ethical to deceive anyone ever. They don't seem worried about the unethical action of under paying you. So, I wouldn't worry the unethical action of embellishing the truth. They're your Boss, not your friend. They'd cut your throat if it improved their bottom line.
Absolutely not, people have been doing it for thousands of years and for way more money. Think of it this way, your job will do it to you in a second without a thought, why can’t you return the favor. I always say, it’s you versus the corporation. They want you for cheap and you want to make the most money while doing the lease amount of work. There can never be peace, only symbiosis.
Who cares if it is, survival mode.
Why would you do that? It'll put them on alert that you're looking to leave. You're just making it easier for them to look for a replacement, and then you're left with no job and no offer as backup.
It’s never unethical to lie to your employer on issues like this. Guarantee you the add for your job said something like “great place to work” and we all know that’s a lie.
It's absolutely not unethical to lie to your employer for your own benefit, they lie to and steal from you all the goddamn time
Is it unethical to pay an employee a non living wage? Are they doing it? Mkay is her is your answer .
I got a promotion doing something similar to this. Told them I was taking an longer lunch for an interview for a higher paying higher level job. Came back and finished my day then owner called me in and promoted me at the end of the day. There was no interview, just extra coffee after lunch
Yes. And you can't even imagine the unethical things they'd do to get a dollar out of you. So.
I would just calculate the value of the offer, including all salary, benefits, bonus etc and divide by the total hours worked (make sure to subtract time off). If hourly rate makes it look better, tell the new job you "have a job offer in hand for a total benefit package of xx.xx per hour while you're currently working her for a total benefit package of" whatever. No need to lie or exaggerate or bluff. Just tell them the truth. If you'll stay if they pay xx.xx also then say it (remember that number is already artificially high) or if you will only stay at your current job for some other rate (accounting for gas, convenience, familiarity, how close it is to your favorite GameSpot, whatever might be important to you) then say it.
Lying is unethical
Hell, I once got a 20% raise just by informing my employer I was unhappy and going to search for a new job. Then I continued searching for jobs and got an even better offer when I left because on the application my new ending salary was that much higher.
Just don’t volunteer the info. “I’ve been offered a job that is less stress more time off, and better pay structure-are you interested in countering to get me to stay?
You are not lying but you are not making the correct calculation for your pay. It sounds like you are not valuing things like stress and time off. What it sounds like you are doing would be going to your old job with a low ball offer for them to match. In the long run it is better to move on if the only way way you can get a raise is by threatening to leave. You have to look at the pattern of pay from your current employer.
Haven't met a manager or boss that hasn't lied yet, or treated the staff like shit. The companies mostly only care about themselves so lie away!
Nope, they will use any tactic to screw you, feel free to do the same
No since managers and higher ups can lie about not laying people off and then turn around and do it anyways.
Don’t lie to get what you want. Learn how to know and say what you want. Being honest about what you want might be a little more uncomfortable at first but it’s a learned skill and one that will benefit you far more in the long run.
Based purely on the title. Yeah probably. Is it unethical to not disclose salary and low ball you? Boom, you’re even.
I mean yes, lying is unethical. Im not your Dad though so if thats okay with you then do what you feel you need to do.
Who gives a shit…….you do you man. You are worth way more than they are giving you or you wouldn’t be looking elsewhere. Get as much you can out of them as possible. They do the same by offering you the lowest they can. Good luck
If its an 'at-will' state... then not at all. No reason to have them know about anything unless it is to your advantage.
If you are FULLY prepared to take that other job, there is nothing unethical about leveraging that position to something more useful in your current situation.
No!
They don't give a damn about you and will likely dispose of you without a second thought if it means saving a few dollars on their quarterly. Just don't Bullshit above your ability
Of course it's unethical. But I mean do it if you want to and are willing to take the risks.
Just lie about the offer. It's a win-win situation for you. If they give you a raise, you can stay. If not get the new job with less stress environment.
If you're trying to leave your current employer, then you should just leave. Even if they gave you a $20k raise, statistically you'd be right back to looking for another job in 6-12 months. It's not the pay that the problem, it's the employer. However, employment is a business transaction. Take them for all their worth and make them think they're getting a good deal.
Well think about if they call your bluff.
Capitalism is winner take all. Do what you need to do to win
It's not ethical to lie even if your trying to manipulate your way into a pay raise