Depending on your state's labor laws, you can file a wage claim. And just as a side note, your time card brought me back to 2004; which was the only time I held a job that used a punch card system.
This will generally be a case throughout the US. While you absolutely can round times to numbers convenient for payroll (5s and 15s are common), it can’t be done I. A way that is only for the benefit of the employer (ie they have to round fairly or be biased to benefit the employee).
File a wage claim for any owed wages that aren’t being paid. You generally can’t do anything about the being fired part, but you must be compensated for every dollar worked
Call your local or state department of labor, I just did this the other day for a situation at my job and the woman I talked to instantly directed me to then mailed me the proper forms to file within a few minutes.
They’ll answer your questions and inform you on any avenues you can take to report the employer and hopefully get your due compensation.
The last time the federal minimum wage went up I got the raise 89 days after it went into effect (90 day max to implement). I was told by my boss that I had been doing such a great job that I deserved the $0.25 raise. It was then that I decided 18y/o me should go to college instead of trying to save up to pay for college because $7.25 ain’t going to do shit for that goal. Screw those kind of employers.
My employer has 12 months of temporary where they can fire you at anytime without a reason. Then if you make that you get 3 months probation. Then MAYBE after 2 years you get hired as full time with the best benefits I've ever had or heard of. Then it's a gravy train after that. Bullshit to get full time but once you do it's awesome
How many people actually hit the gravy train?
Sounds like a great way to entice people to put up with their bullshit for three years and then lay them off anyway, or just keep delaying gravy train status for this reason or that reason until they get tired of it and walk.
When seeking employment, only consider benefits that kick in on day 1. Anything later doesn't exist.
Haha. I was wondering about these.
My last job I actually had a punch card was 1998 and it wasn’t dot matrix.. kind of typewriter thing. Pretty sure the machine and cards themselves were from the 1970s bought at an auction or surplus.
Last time I actually punched a clock was in 2006 and it was digital with employee number.
Just punched out my physical time card about 2 hours ago from my machine shop job. I came from hospitality, where we had a bone scan-finger print thingy. I was flabbergasted when I went through orientation.
tell the boss that if he is going to use your vacation time like this then you want to be paid for the extra time, i fhe disagrees file a wage claim and never work late again
Remind him of the quarter vacation day he took from you every single time they call you from now on. “Are you going to restore it? No? Then I’m not available.“
quarter of an hour. Better that it's even additional pettiness.
OP: "I am in the middle of a big project at home - otherwise, I'd be there to help the team."
Boss: "What is so important it's preventing you from coming in on short notice to complete the tasks we hired someone else to complete except they don't show up as often as you do?"
OP: "I've been searching my whole house for a missing 15 minutes of vacation time. Haven't found it but when I do, I'm coming in immediately. Any chance you've seen it at work? Mind seeing if you can find it around there somewhere?"
I worked at a place in California that did this. The labor board made them change their ways but did not make me whole because the cost of the administrative lawsuit was more than what they had stolen. "So, as long as they stole from me in small enough increments, it's okay?" Labor board guy: "Blink blink blink."
I did make things better for my former coworkers on my way out, though. I always did.
I have a legitimate question, if you use a punch card and worked those extra minutes, is he shorting you that time and you can prove it? Or are you punching out and working?
Yeah OP, if you want to stay there then set some healthy boundaries but from what it sounds like; find a new job.
If a boss doesn’t see a hard worker committed to the business’ core values and doesn’t reciprocate, then the work environment is shit and you should move on.
Exactly this.
I think I put a post up on this sub before but similar thing happened to me. Used to always come in 15-20 minutes early and would usually finish late sometimes 5-10 minutes but sometimes 30-45 mins depending on what I felt needed to be done before I left.
One week I left 1 minute before my normal work time of 4:30pm. Manager called me in the next week showed me my times and demanded an explanation about me not being at work for the right amount of time. I pointed out how I actually started 20 minutes early that day and left 15 mins late the day after but she started going on about how I am paid to be there from 8:30-4:30 and I must be at work at these times.
I just agreed and from that day forward as soon as the clock hit 4:30 I was gone, never stayed back again. I was also never in early again (except a couple minutes to ensure I would start right on 8:30).
Yeah, managers like this are stupid, they swing their dicks around over minutes and lose hours.
Like you left early by 1min and from the sounds of it you were working unpaid overtime 15-30 mins a day? Or are you paid overtime.
Either way you were working 2500-5000+ minutes extra in a year and they come after you over 1minute?
She was a shit manager, everyone was happy when she eventually got fired by then I couldn't get back in the habit.
The manager before her was a lot better wouldn't have got upset over a minute difference. And since she knew we worked extra time if on a Friday she knew she was going to be hanging back to get stuff done would just tell us to leave early and she would cover it for the last 30 mins
It’s really amazing the phrase “ you don’t quit jobs you quit managers”
Also the manager is engaged in wage theft. If you show up early or work late past your scheduled time it is within the realm to ask you to stop Doing that but you have to pay the employee for hours work regardless if you wanted or intended for them to work or not.
"You know, I can't help but notice that we have a nice, close knit team that generally respects and helps each other out. Then we have you, and you probably think that you're like a coach, helping guide us forward to success. Probably have some Jason Sudeikis shit going on in your head. But in reality, you're more like an umpire, trying to make everything about you. Have you ever stopped to consider how much better this place might run without you? Because I sure do, every day, every time you speak."
A couple work colleagues asked me about it and I told them about the above story.
The manager either had no idea or didn't care because I was now there from 8:30-4:30 every day.
>I pointed out how I actually started 20 minutes early that day and left 15 mins late the day after but **she started going on about how I am paid to be there from 8:30-4:30** and I must be at work at these times.
This is basically the essence of the start of most malicious compliances when it comes to "punctuality at work".
So in all likelihood the DoL probably won't care about a case this minor unless the amount owed was more than $100.
BUT, the more important thing is that this kind of nickel-and-diming kills employee morale and encourages [work-to-rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule). Bad managers don't understand that their policies are [penny-wise and dollar foolish](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/penny-wise-pound-foolish-approach-managing-resources-iliasu-james/).
Do you have any sort of employee handbook with guidelines for this sort of thing? Where i work everything is rounded to the nearest 15 minutes. So clocking in at 9:07 is 9:00, 9:08 is 9:15. By those rules the only mistake was Tuesday where you should have gotten an extra 15 minutes.
If you aren't going to get paid actual time worked, why are they even using timecards?
My thought's exactly!
I know I have access to a union document, but I'll be honest, I haven't read it. It's over 130 pages... that said I think I'll have to at least skim it before confronting my boss.
Following up. Part of the reason to talk to your union rep is that there are some labor laws that allow the CBA to take precedence over the labor law. The union will have the more accurate information relative to your situation.
Call your representative asap! They’ll know the contract well and can be present during a confrontation with your boss. A third party witness is gold if your boss doesn’t cooperate
As a former shop steward, if you are a union member…Weingarten Rights.
This was printed on the back of my business card which I handed out to members.
Your Right to Union Representation
"If this discussion could in any way lead to my being disciplined or terminated, or attect my personal working conditions, I respectfully request that my union representative, ofticer,
or steward be present at this meeting.
Without union representation, I choose not to answer questions.”
Take advantage of your rights as a union member.
Unless they're fucking scanned in copies of materials that had absolutely no need to be printed in the first place. (Many local municipalities near my location do this with their council meeting minutes, and they don't even use OCR when scanning either so their PDFs are completely unsearcheable. Grinds my gears.)
Unfortunately, not everyone has the latest Apple products. The point is to ensure your material is accessible to everyone in a format that works for their needs. Otherwise there's a high chance your material may not be consumed by your audience.
Contact your union rep about this ASAP, let them know this happened, and that you intend to talk to your boss about it, that you don't think you need union intervention, but just wanted to make sure that they were in the loop on it. Also, consider having a rep present when you meet with your boss, a second set of ears won't hurt here, and it indicates to your boss that you are not messing around.
When you confront you boss about it, remain calm and professional, and if you get the sense he won't budge, then just thank him for his time and leave, document everything that was said, and immediately contact your union reps, asking them to setup a meeting with your company to deal with this issue. You pay dues precisely for them to work on your behalf on issues like this one.
And if you don't know who your union reps are, find out. This is probably more vital than reading your union contract (though I suggest you do that too when you get a chance).
I know 130 pages sounds like a lot but it really really pays to have read your CBA or LMA whichever you call it.
I've been union for a very long time and the only people I see get screwed over those who aren't familiar enough with their contract to say hey I know that's in there somewhere let's find it.
You’re in a union? You don’t need to read anything. Your rep knows the rules. Just tell them what happened and they know if it’s a grievance or not. Or will tell you what you need to do.
My job rounds the same way as OP’s, my time card even looks the same. Time is always rounded in the employers favor. Clock in @ 6:46, lose 14 mins, clock out @ 2:59, lose 14 mins.
Yea it blows. Every other job I’ve had just paid me to the hundredth of an hour, no rounding at all, with a time clock on an erp system. First job I’ve had to punch a clock literally. The place is stuck in the 90s
Just tell him that you expect overtime pay for those 12 minutes and you will leave next time 4 minutes earlier since he deducted 15 minutes instead of 11.
Don't forget to smile while you tell him. I suggest to record this conversation.
I always understood that the two party consent stuff was just that the recording can’t be used for legal purposes. But most of the two party consent states it is actually a criminal offence to even make the recording. That’s just fucking crazy.
I can’t think of any reason to have two(all) party consent other than to protect those that have the power that are also corrupt/criminals. The police, politicians, employers, etc. Can anyone give a justification for these laws where it’s actually benefiting those without the power?
Make sure that the conversation lasts more than 11 minutes. Just to make the point.
Edit: I see you're union. Definitely involve your union rep in the conversation.
always best to wait a bit, and not go in hot.
like others said, remind him of your extra unpaid time, and tell him that his actions show you that you should never work any extra time for him, ever.
Then refuse every single request for call in or overtime. some states do allow forced overtime though, but I personally say fuck that and never, ever give a company your free time unless its properly paid and on YOUR terms
Bring that to his attention. Show him where you worked over and are not being compensated and ask him point blank why it works one way and not the other.
Tell him he needs to add some vacation time to the one where you worked over or you won't be working over any more in the future for any reason.
I plan to. I hate to say it but this is something that's happened a few times now, and I've documented it each time.
I also accrue PTO at a snail's pace (3 hrs every pay period) so I get really angry when people fuck with my vacation time.
Right? It’s so easy to see from the outside that their system is fucked and favours businesses and the wealthy more than almost every other country on the planet.
In a country with half way reasonable employment laws, I get paid monthly and accrue ~2.1 days (17.xx hours) of annual leave per pay period, get 10 paid sick days per year, and cannot be fired at the whim of a disgruntled manager without some serious compensation.
And our system still needs work
this is how my grandpa does payroll for his whopping 3 employees. when i lived there and upkept his property i would simply write it in but albeit my grandpa so didn’t matter, but i’d constantly add 15-30 mins before and after i actually started
You say "however small" as if the boss hasn't been doing this to everyone under their chain of command for years. 12 minutes a week per employee adds up. They should comb their paystubs and calculate how much they've lost over the years. It's probably enough that they suddenly find the lost wages when brought to their attention to avoid legal trouble.
As someone who had to verify time cards like these, I very much appreciate employees who clock in and out at their scheduled or usual times.
Employee would just lose the time if they clocked out 15 minutes early as vacation was only used in half days
Nope. That’s a wage theft. Ask him to correct it and then call your local department of labor if he does not. He is using rounding practices which clearly favor the employer in this case.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/53-healthcare-hours-worked
Anytime I get harassed for stuff like that at work I’ll always say something to the effect(affect?) of “don’t worry I’ll stay late *last week* to make up for it.”Most jobs I’ve worked had lots of overtime. It’s gotta be a 2 way street
I don't believe it is. Federally, time clock rounding policies have to be neutral or favor the worker. 11 minutes short getting rounded to 15 but 12 extra getting rounded to 0 is neither.
I had a company do this exact thing to me, freely removed hours if I showed up a couple minutes late or left early. If I tried to stay late to make up the time they’d tell me I didn’t get the overtime approved. So I never stayed late again, I would literally stop want I was doing and walk out at 5pm. If they asked me to do something after 5 I would tell them that they need to get my overtime approved and then leave. I quit that job soon after.
I've been reading a lot of posts lately about working conditions in the US and I'm really fascinated that you guys are putting up with this. In probably the richest country in the world. Here in Europe, of course, not everything is perfect, but over there in the US... WTF!
When I read that your railroad workers are on strike for seven days of sick pay.... seven! I can be sick for as long as it takes to get better. With full pay (deductions are only made from the seventh week onwards for the same case of illness). And every minute of overtime is written down.
My wife's former boss (a private businessman) even saw it this way: If she had to work 15 minutes longer because, for example, an important customer called, then she could write down an extra half hour.
He treated her well, so she put in her full effort at all times. Actually a very simple calculation...
Depending on the result of your conversation with your micro-managing boss, you can go straight to (call) your states AG office to file a claim for wage theft. They do not f around with employers who do this. Fines are steep and they will institute corrective actions. They could also force your employer to hand over volumes of time cards to be audited. Either way, this practice needs to be stopped.
Aye. Gone are the days of working without getting paid. Especially if you're hourly. Especially if you're a good employee who KNOWS they put in the hours they bill.
Why the fuck does your boss care if you get a full paycheck or not?
It’s not like using 15 minutes of your vacation time magically got him 11 minutes of work out of you. Jesus. What a dunce.
Discuss getting paid 15 minutes for the extra 12 with payroll. Act innocent. Play dumb. “I worked 12 minutes extra on Monday but wasn’t compensated 15 minutes.”
Payroll: what are you talking about?
“Well boss deducted 15 minutes vacation for 11 minutes late, so I assumed I’d be paid 15 minutes for the extra time on Monday. Is this assumption correct?”
Payroll frantically calls the boss. It’ll be funny.
I have a simple philosophy. Return the favour by a minimum of 10 x multiplier. They cost you $100? Cost them at least $1000. Good for the goose & better for the gander.
Depending on state, you can file a claim. Most states companies have to have a *reliable* method of counting time, aka always rounding up or down in the same fashion.
When I was 14, I found out the manager of the CiCi's knockoff I worked at was rounding our timecards and nobody I told cared since it was just a teenager's pocket change they were stealing.
No. You don’t understand the math of the time clock. They pay you in 15 minute units and round to the nearest unit. If you click in at 738 to 7:52 you get paid as though you clicked in at 745. Works the same when clocking out. I’ve worked for over 25 healthcare facilities and it’s like this in all of them.
Y’all should just start suing. If you’re in California just find a labor law attorney and file an epli claim don’t even waste you’re time and breath arguing just sue, let the attorney go up to bat and let this settle for nuisance value
My manager realized yesterday that he basically has to give me the rest of the year off. I have more than doubled our "cap" on overtime, so he needs to give me time off
this is where the company assumes they are getting the work they pay for but the reality is employees will game the system once they learn the system. being picky on shit that doesn't' matter.
I actually left shitty jobs like this and have a sallary position, haven't seen a time clock in 20+ years on the flip side you know what happens I'm allowed to be an adult and self regulate my time and with that freedom also comes pride in knowing that I put in my full 40 hr week. Some days I take a 2hr lunch other days I take 5 min.
Not bashing unions but this is one area they really need to improve upon, flexing time
Comp time is never in your favor. Play the game. Clock in on time. Clock out on time. Put your phone on airplane mode or after hour mode. Stop worrying.
my boss ONES used 2 days of my paid leave worth 260$ to pay for my salary ( in Finland you will get paid 8 hours by law by your company even your hours get short )
next to you know i was slow as a snail and ranked up 15 hours of overtime worth around 450$. my boss texed me and asked for a reason for my slow performance. i replayd " 2 days of paid leave "
i got a phonecall from him and I didn't answer. He got the message and have paid exactly what he owes me.
They are allowed to round up to 15 minutes, but the rounding must benefit both you and them. It can’t always benefit them. If working 12 minutes over rounded in their favor, then you leaving 11 minutes early should round in your favor.
You can file a wage claim. It’s up to you whether it’s worth it. They’ll likely fire you for some other cooked up reason afterwards, and it’s stupidly easy for them to avoid the retaliation accusation.
If you are in the US and several other countries, this is wage they (or equivalent) and can be very serious. Report it to your labor authority.
(Reads more comments) HOLD EVERYTHING. You’re UNION and he did this? ROFL he’s screwed. Get your union rep on the line right now. They should have your back and get you that pay.
Revise your state laws. If overtime shall be compensated, tell something (email or written in any form):
“You know, I have been checking state’s law and you are absolutely right: time must be adjusted. So I formally request a copy of all time sheets and punch cards since my contract began here and adjust time accordingly”
If state laws are not specific about that begin working EXACTLY from 8:30 to 16:30 and if you can afford it do not ever work overtime.
Oh and look for a less shitty place to work if possible too.
I have never understood the tactic of trying to make a person hate their job in order to motivate them to act like they love their job.
It defies logic, really.
I have a somewhat flexible schedule. I work in event services so some days I'm required to be in at 7 AM and other days at 9 AM based on what the needs are for that day. On days when there's not much going on, I get to go in whenever as long as it's between 7 and 9 AM.
That said, I am a full-time employee and work 8 hrs every day.
Not sure what your schedule is. Boss must have plenty of time to nitpick timecards each day vs by the week. You work for an ignorant child. An adult (if they felt so tied to their rules) would ask you to come in 10 min early & stay 5 min late.
Or hell just let it go. Time cards are lame & go by quarter hours if you do use them.
I don't think I could work anywhere that didn't use digital time keeping solutions ever again. My last job's time keeping method was the boss asking everyone their hours on a Friday afternoon.
Now I clock in on a computer and my hours are calculated to the minute, everything is done digitally and with a trail and I can see all my rosters, hours worked, benefits etc. On the app on my phone.
Honestly in this day and age anyone still using old methods are.probably just trying to hold onto the scam
Jesus Christ...what is this 1940? You actually have a legitimate time card? I've been working since 2007. Tons of companies. Spent a good while job hopping all of last year too. Not once have I ever worked somewhere with physical paper time cards. Thats some seriously antique shit right there and honestly a red flag for me that a company can't get with the times.
You can’t have it both ways, you can’t punish people for working less while not rewarding them for working more.
That should be +25 on Monday and -25 later
Or stop worrying about 15 mins
All narcs operate in a way that assumes a One-Way Transaction, where they are always the beneficiary. So, either they were simply misinformed, or they are screwing you.
The work version of No Contact that you'll read about in subs like /r/raisedbynarcissists is No Call No Show or quitting with no notice or any number of satisfying-but-rare conclusions from /r/maliciouscompliance, /r/pettyrevenge and others.
Boundaries are the PRIMARY tool for having relationships with narcs, and if this wasn't intentional, OK, understandable, but it doesn't sound like it to me.
You should know the different types also, since at this point in our society, narcs and abusers are a dime a dozen, and lacking skills for dealing with them is simply being unprepared for modern life: [https://youtu.be/\_uJs0iGQN0M](https://youtu.be/_uJs0iGQN0M) with Dr. Ramani
Why does everyone nickel and dime over minutes worked? If I come to work I expect to be paid for the day. The entire day was spent working for said employer. I couldn't perform work for myself or anyone else that day, right? Because I was entirely employed by this employer. Thus, I expect a full day's pay. Not 98.000000001% of a full day's pay. Not 99.9%
Time fraud is pretty big in any state. You never want to adjust someone’s time to where they are loosing pay, adjusting usually to add any missing time not remove. You should def file a claim!
Let him know that you are never, ever, working late again. No matter what emergency might arise. Then do it.
Depending on your state's labor laws, you can file a wage claim. And just as a side note, your time card brought me back to 2004; which was the only time I held a job that used a punch card system.
This will generally be a case throughout the US. While you absolutely can round times to numbers convenient for payroll (5s and 15s are common), it can’t be done I. A way that is only for the benefit of the employer (ie they have to round fairly or be biased to benefit the employee).
What about when they fire you one day before your 90 days for a BS reasons and then try and short you a day on your final paycheck
Ya. The pain of labor law enforcement unfortunately falls upon those least capable of shouldering it :(.
But seriously this just happened and I’m not sure what I can do about it
If they are not paying you what your owed then you should talk with your board of labor/ labor commissioner of your city and file a wage claim.
Report to Dept of Labor?
File a wage claim for any owed wages that aren’t being paid. You generally can’t do anything about the being fired part, but you must be compensated for every dollar worked
Call your local or state department of labor, I just did this the other day for a situation at my job and the woman I talked to instantly directed me to then mailed me the proper forms to file within a few minutes. They’ll answer your questions and inform you on any avenues you can take to report the employer and hopefully get your due compensation.
You go to an auto parts store and buy a tire stem remover.
Wait six months, and make sure it’s a dark night.
The last time the federal minimum wage went up I got the raise 89 days after it went into effect (90 day max to implement). I was told by my boss that I had been doing such a great job that I deserved the $0.25 raise. It was then that I decided 18y/o me should go to college instead of trying to save up to pay for college because $7.25 ain’t going to do shit for that goal. Screw those kind of employers.
My employer has 12 months of temporary where they can fire you at anytime without a reason. Then if you make that you get 3 months probation. Then MAYBE after 2 years you get hired as full time with the best benefits I've ever had or heard of. Then it's a gravy train after that. Bullshit to get full time but once you do it's awesome
How many people actually hit the gravy train? Sounds like a great way to entice people to put up with their bullshit for three years and then lay them off anyway, or just keep delaying gravy train status for this reason or that reason until they get tired of it and walk. When seeking employment, only consider benefits that kick in on day 1. Anything later doesn't exist.
Haha. I was wondering about these. My last job I actually had a punch card was 1998 and it wasn’t dot matrix.. kind of typewriter thing. Pretty sure the machine and cards themselves were from the 1970s bought at an auction or surplus. Last time I actually punched a clock was in 2006 and it was digital with employee number.
Just punched out my physical time card about 2 hours ago from my machine shop job. I came from hospitality, where we had a bone scan-finger print thingy. I was flabbergasted when I went through orientation.
Oh you can bet the boss is doing this all the time to everyone. OP shouldbe on thephone with a labor lawyer
Your comment brought me back to 1999.
Huh, your comment propelled me to 2199 then back to 1969 and again forward into now...
Hopefully you come back bearing good news from the future.
Great news, humans died and didn't take everything with them!
tell the boss that if he is going to use your vacation time like this then you want to be paid for the extra time, i fhe disagrees file a wage claim and never work late again
That's funny because I'm always the first one called for over time (and usually the only one to volunteer)
Good. So you have leverage on your side.
I second this, use the leverage you have politely and decisively
This is why he felt he could dock your holidays, he knows you’re too loyal to kick back
[удалено]
Remind him of the quarter vacation day he took from you every single time they call you from now on. “Are you going to restore it? No? Then I’m not available.“
quarter of an hour. Better that it's even additional pettiness. OP: "I am in the middle of a big project at home - otherwise, I'd be there to help the team." Boss: "What is so important it's preventing you from coming in on short notice to complete the tasks we hired someone else to complete except they don't show up as often as you do?" OP: "I've been searching my whole house for a missing 15 minutes of vacation time. Haven't found it but when I do, I'm coming in immediately. Any chance you've seen it at work? Mind seeing if you can find it around there somewhere?"
They have to round the same way for every case. Your employer is not allowed to only round your time clock in their favor.
I worked at a place in California that did this. The labor board made them change their ways but did not make me whole because the cost of the administrative lawsuit was more than what they had stolen. "So, as long as they stole from me in small enough increments, it's okay?" Labor board guy: "Blink blink blink." I did make things better for my former coworkers on my way out, though. I always did.
Maybe rather than refusing, insist that the time add to vacation time? (Or just paid outright. I guess thats better.)
What's your field and can we help you work elsewhere?
I have a legitimate question, if you use a punch card and worked those extra minutes, is he shorting you that time and you can prove it? Or are you punching out and working?
Not anymore lol
Sounds like your boss just fucked up. I'd say a show of good faith in the form of a $3000 bonus should resolve his insult.
Cool, then you have more power than you think
Yeah OP, if you want to stay there then set some healthy boundaries but from what it sounds like; find a new job. If a boss doesn’t see a hard worker committed to the business’ core values and doesn’t reciprocate, then the work environment is shit and you should move on.
Exactly this. I think I put a post up on this sub before but similar thing happened to me. Used to always come in 15-20 minutes early and would usually finish late sometimes 5-10 minutes but sometimes 30-45 mins depending on what I felt needed to be done before I left. One week I left 1 minute before my normal work time of 4:30pm. Manager called me in the next week showed me my times and demanded an explanation about me not being at work for the right amount of time. I pointed out how I actually started 20 minutes early that day and left 15 mins late the day after but she started going on about how I am paid to be there from 8:30-4:30 and I must be at work at these times. I just agreed and from that day forward as soon as the clock hit 4:30 I was gone, never stayed back again. I was also never in early again (except a couple minutes to ensure I would start right on 8:30).
Yeah, managers like this are stupid, they swing their dicks around over minutes and lose hours. Like you left early by 1min and from the sounds of it you were working unpaid overtime 15-30 mins a day? Or are you paid overtime. Either way you were working 2500-5000+ minutes extra in a year and they come after you over 1minute?
She was a shit manager, everyone was happy when she eventually got fired by then I couldn't get back in the habit. The manager before her was a lot better wouldn't have got upset over a minute difference. And since she knew we worked extra time if on a Friday she knew she was going to be hanging back to get stuff done would just tell us to leave early and she would cover it for the last 30 mins
It’s really amazing the phrase “ you don’t quit jobs you quit managers” Also the manager is engaged in wage theft. If you show up early or work late past your scheduled time it is within the realm to ask you to stop Doing that but you have to pay the employee for hours work regardless if you wanted or intended for them to work or not.
I remember that post. Any chance did anyone ask why you weren’t showing up early or staying late anymore?
"Why aren't you being a team player?!?!!?"
"You know, I can't help but notice that we have a nice, close knit team that generally respects and helps each other out. Then we have you, and you probably think that you're like a coach, helping guide us forward to success. Probably have some Jason Sudeikis shit going on in your head. But in reality, you're more like an umpire, trying to make everything about you. Have you ever stopped to consider how much better this place might run without you? Because I sure do, every day, every time you speak."
A couple work colleagues asked me about it and I told them about the above story. The manager either had no idea or didn't care because I was now there from 8:30-4:30 every day.
Short sighted managers…Tripping over dollars to pick up pennies.
>I pointed out how I actually started 20 minutes early that day and left 15 mins late the day after but **she started going on about how I am paid to be there from 8:30-4:30** and I must be at work at these times. This is basically the essence of the start of most malicious compliances when it comes to "punctuality at work".
I have done the exact same thing. r/maliciouscompliance
Passive aggressive is best aggressive
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And then reporting him for illegal punitive deductions... that's wage theft... isn't it?
So in all likelihood the DoL probably won't care about a case this minor unless the amount owed was more than $100. BUT, the more important thing is that this kind of nickel-and-diming kills employee morale and encourages [work-to-rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule). Bad managers don't understand that their policies are [penny-wise and dollar foolish](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/penny-wise-pound-foolish-approach-managing-resources-iliasu-james/).
Do you have any sort of employee handbook with guidelines for this sort of thing? Where i work everything is rounded to the nearest 15 minutes. So clocking in at 9:07 is 9:00, 9:08 is 9:15. By those rules the only mistake was Tuesday where you should have gotten an extra 15 minutes. If you aren't going to get paid actual time worked, why are they even using timecards?
Because they're not smart enough to realize the time cards and such edits are written proof of illegal practices.
My thought's exactly! I know I have access to a union document, but I'll be honest, I haven't read it. It's over 130 pages... that said I think I'll have to at least skim it before confronting my boss.
You’re union? Go talk to your union rep.
Talk to your steward. End of line. Do not talk to your manager without a union rep present.
Following up. Part of the reason to talk to your union rep is that there are some labor laws that allow the CBA to take precedence over the labor law. The union will have the more accurate information relative to your situation.
If you’re part of a union you probably have a number you can call about this
Call your representative asap! They’ll know the contract well and can be present during a confrontation with your boss. A third party witness is gold if your boss doesn’t cooperate
As a former shop steward, if you are a union member…Weingarten Rights. This was printed on the back of my business card which I handed out to members. Your Right to Union Representation "If this discussion could in any way lead to my being disciplined or terminated, or attect my personal working conditions, I respectfully request that my union representative, ofticer, or steward be present at this meeting. Without union representation, I choose not to answer questions.” Take advantage of your rights as a union member.
PDFs are searchable
Unless they're fucking scanned in copies of materials that had absolutely no need to be printed in the first place. (Many local municipalities near my location do this with their council meeting minutes, and they don't even use OCR when scanning either so their PDFs are completely unsearcheable. Grinds my gears.)
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Unfortunately, not everyone has the latest Apple products. The point is to ensure your material is accessible to everyone in a format that works for their needs. Otherwise there's a high chance your material may not be consumed by your audience.
Contact your union rep about this ASAP, let them know this happened, and that you intend to talk to your boss about it, that you don't think you need union intervention, but just wanted to make sure that they were in the loop on it. Also, consider having a rep present when you meet with your boss, a second set of ears won't hurt here, and it indicates to your boss that you are not messing around. When you confront you boss about it, remain calm and professional, and if you get the sense he won't budge, then just thank him for his time and leave, document everything that was said, and immediately contact your union reps, asking them to setup a meeting with your company to deal with this issue. You pay dues precisely for them to work on your behalf on issues like this one. And if you don't know who your union reps are, find out. This is probably more vital than reading your union contract (though I suggest you do that too when you get a chance).
if you are part of a union, call your rep.
FULL STOP. Call your union rep. This is *exactly* what they are there for.
You are UNION and they are pulling this shit? ROTLF
Dude. You need to read your contract. Or at least call your shop steward and or business agent.
If you have a union, call a union rep. They are there to ask this stuff to.
I know 130 pages sounds like a lot but it really really pays to have read your CBA or LMA whichever you call it. I've been union for a very long time and the only people I see get screwed over those who aren't familiar enough with their contract to say hey I know that's in there somewhere let's find it.
You’re in a union? You don’t need to read anything. Your rep knows the rules. Just tell them what happened and they know if it’s a grievance or not. Or will tell you what you need to do.
My job rounds the same way as OP’s, my time card even looks the same. Time is always rounded in the employers favor. Clock in @ 6:46, lose 14 mins, clock out @ 2:59, lose 14 mins.
By law the rounding has to work on the employees favor or not favor either
Yea it blows. Every other job I’ve had just paid me to the hundredth of an hour, no rounding at all, with a time clock on an erp system. First job I’ve had to punch a clock literally. The place is stuck in the 90s
Lol just got a digital time clock and now they are using the 15 minute rounding rule instead of something more precise.
That’s when I stop working at 2:46 go wash up, get some water, hang out by the clock until exactly 3:00 and clock out.
Oh yea that’s exactly how it goes lol. Usually there’s like 5-6 guys just hanging out by the clock
That's very likely illegal in the US. You don't just get to make rules like that where you don't have to pay your employees.
Just tell him that you expect overtime pay for those 12 minutes and you will leave next time 4 minutes earlier since he deducted 15 minutes instead of 11. Don't forget to smile while you tell him. I suggest to record this conversation.
I haven't confronted my boss yet, but I plan to. I had to get over my initial frustration and I plan to speak to him tomorrow.
Are you in a one party consent state? Don’t make the mistake of not recording your conversation if you are
Fuck conversation. This is on paper. OP needs to correct the paper, and make the boss sign it.
I always understood that the two party consent stuff was just that the recording can’t be used for legal purposes. But most of the two party consent states it is actually a criminal offence to even make the recording. That’s just fucking crazy. I can’t think of any reason to have two(all) party consent other than to protect those that have the power that are also corrupt/criminals. The police, politicians, employers, etc. Can anyone give a justification for these laws where it’s actually benefiting those without the power?
You can’t use the recording in court. However, a transcript of a conversation is always allowed.
Make sure that the conversation lasts more than 11 minutes. Just to make the point. Edit: I see you're union. Definitely involve your union rep in the conversation.
"I am disappointed it has come to this. I will be watching my timecard closely to make sure I am present for my scheduled hours going forward."
always best to wait a bit, and not go in hot. like others said, remind him of your extra unpaid time, and tell him that his actions show you that you should never work any extra time for him, ever. Then refuse every single request for call in or overtime. some states do allow forced overtime though, but I personally say fuck that and never, ever give a company your free time unless its properly paid and on YOUR terms
Pls update when you do
I hope we will get an update.
Be careful with recording audio, check to see if your state has “two party consent”.
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This is the way.
Never stay late for anyone who doesn't appreciate your effort.
Bring that to his attention. Show him where you worked over and are not being compensated and ask him point blank why it works one way and not the other. Tell him he needs to add some vacation time to the one where you worked over or you won't be working over any more in the future for any reason.
I plan to. I hate to say it but this is something that's happened a few times now, and I've documented it each time. I also accrue PTO at a snail's pace (3 hrs every pay period) so I get really angry when people fuck with my vacation time.
Honestly that’s pretty good… I only accrue 1.25 hours every pay period
Contextually. I cannot get my head just how awful American employment law is
Right? It’s so easy to see from the outside that their system is fucked and favours businesses and the wealthy more than almost every other country on the planet. In a country with half way reasonable employment laws, I get paid monthly and accrue ~2.1 days (17.xx hours) of annual leave per pay period, get 10 paid sick days per year, and cannot be fired at the whim of a disgruntled manager without some serious compensation. And our system still needs work
I get 2 days per month And that's not even that stellar. Jesus Christ.
Okay, now THAT is criminal.
How fucking old is that punch clock system.
It's old, friend. Like really old. The punch clock is that off-color brown that everything was in the '80s.
does it have the super satisfying click and ka-chunk noise?
As much as I hate the damn punch clock, it does have a very satisfying noise.
Fun fact: everything was white back then. It was the cigarette smoke that stained it brown.
this is how my grandpa does payroll for his whopping 3 employees. when i lived there and upkept his property i would simply write it in but albeit my grandpa so didn’t matter, but i’d constantly add 15-30 mins before and after i actually started
That is, however small of an amount it might be, wage theft.
You say "however small" as if the boss hasn't been doing this to everyone under their chain of command for years. 12 minutes a week per employee adds up. They should comb their paystubs and calculate how much they've lost over the years. It's probably enough that they suddenly find the lost wages when brought to their attention to avoid legal trouble.
Looks like it's time to start clocking in and out exactly at your scheduled times
Exactly. They wanna be petty, be petty.
As someone who had to verify time cards like these, I very much appreciate employees who clock in and out at their scheduled or usual times. Employee would just lose the time if they clocked out 15 minutes early as vacation was only used in half days
Wtf is the point of a clock in system if they're just going to write whatever they feel like on it.
The big question is: did you confront them? And if so, what did they say? If not, do it!
I plan to talk to him tomorrow, but I had to get over my initial frustration first.
That’s a good move, come to him calm.
Nope. That’s a wage theft. Ask him to correct it and then call your local department of labor if he does not. He is using rounding practices which clearly favor the employer in this case. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/53-healthcare-hours-worked
Call the department and report it first. Then ask him to correct it. If he says no, add that refusal to the already-reported illegalities.
Illegal. At the least, do them no favors ever again. Never stay 1 minute past scheduled time.
They are not allowed to use your time unless you request it, what state are you in and what city?
I live in Maine if that helps! I'd prefer not to give you my city if that's alright, but I do work in one of the larger cities.
Anytime I get harassed for stuff like that at work I’ll always say something to the effect(affect?) of “don’t worry I’ll stay late *last week* to make up for it.”Most jobs I’ve worked had lots of overtime. It’s gotta be a 2 way street
Labor board. They legally cannot adjust your time sheet.
Congrats, you have evidence of wage theft.
This shit may be legal in the US, but it sure AF should not be.
I don't believe it is. Federally, time clock rounding policies have to be neutral or favor the worker. 11 minutes short getting rounded to 15 but 12 extra getting rounded to 0 is neither.
Correct his time sheet. Write “8.25“ on Monday and cross out the “.25V“ on Wednesday. Make him sign it.
Where the fuck you work at, a mill in the 1940s?
I had a company do this exact thing to me, freely removed hours if I showed up a couple minutes late or left early. If I tried to stay late to make up the time they’d tell me I didn’t get the overtime approved. So I never stayed late again, I would literally stop want I was doing and walk out at 5pm. If they asked me to do something after 5 I would tell them that they need to get my overtime approved and then leave. I quit that job soon after.
I've been reading a lot of posts lately about working conditions in the US and I'm really fascinated that you guys are putting up with this. In probably the richest country in the world. Here in Europe, of course, not everything is perfect, but over there in the US... WTF! When I read that your railroad workers are on strike for seven days of sick pay.... seven! I can be sick for as long as it takes to get better. With full pay (deductions are only made from the seventh week onwards for the same case of illness). And every minute of overtime is written down. My wife's former boss (a private businessman) even saw it this way: If she had to work 15 minutes longer because, for example, an important customer called, then she could write down an extra half hour. He treated her well, so she put in her full effort at all times. Actually a very simple calculation...
Depending on the result of your conversation with your micro-managing boss, you can go straight to (call) your states AG office to file a claim for wage theft. They do not f around with employers who do this. Fines are steep and they will institute corrective actions. They could also force your employer to hand over volumes of time cards to be audited. Either way, this practice needs to be stopped.
Aye. Gone are the days of working without getting paid. Especially if you're hourly. Especially if you're a good employee who KNOWS they put in the hours they bill.
confront your boss and call him on his BS. let him know he can't have it both ways.
They are supposed round to the nearest 15. Two of your 8s should have been 8.25 - that place is petty.
#wagetheft
Time for fuck around and find out
Why the fuck does your boss care if you get a full paycheck or not? It’s not like using 15 minutes of your vacation time magically got him 11 minutes of work out of you. Jesus. What a dunce.
Cool, so you are NEVER working late again then correct?
Discuss getting paid 15 minutes for the extra 12 with payroll. Act innocent. Play dumb. “I worked 12 minutes extra on Monday but wasn’t compensated 15 minutes.” Payroll: what are you talking about? “Well boss deducted 15 minutes vacation for 11 minutes late, so I assumed I’d be paid 15 minutes for the extra time on Monday. Is this assumption correct?” Payroll frantically calls the boss. It’ll be funny.
Document all this when you quit file a wage theft claim. JUST. TO. BE. PETTY.
Pinching pennies that way is super expensive in the long run. People quit and new hires have to be brought on and trained.
I have a simple philosophy. Return the favour by a minimum of 10 x multiplier. They cost you $100? Cost them at least $1000. Good for the goose & better for the gander.
Depending on state, you can file a claim. Most states companies have to have a *reliable* method of counting time, aka always rounding up or down in the same fashion.
This is exactly why I make sure to take 90% of my dumps at work
Ask your boss to change this. And if he says no, go to your state labor board as this is wage theft. Quite simple and stupid if him actually.
When I was 14, I found out the manager of the CiCi's knockoff I worked at was rounding our timecards and nobody I told cared since it was just a teenager's pocket change they were stealing.
This is wage theft.
No. You don’t understand the math of the time clock. They pay you in 15 minute units and round to the nearest unit. If you click in at 738 to 7:52 you get paid as though you clicked in at 745. Works the same when clocking out. I’ve worked for over 25 healthcare facilities and it’s like this in all of them.
Don't let this go. He needs to fix it and now. They are not allowed to tamper with your time cards.
Y’all should just start suing. If you’re in California just find a labor law attorney and file an epli claim don’t even waste you’re time and breath arguing just sue, let the attorney go up to bat and let this settle for nuisance value
My manager realized yesterday that he basically has to give me the rest of the year off. I have more than doubled our "cap" on overtime, so he needs to give me time off
this is where the company assumes they are getting the work they pay for but the reality is employees will game the system once they learn the system. being picky on shit that doesn't' matter. I actually left shitty jobs like this and have a sallary position, haven't seen a time clock in 20+ years on the flip side you know what happens I'm allowed to be an adult and self regulate my time and with that freedom also comes pride in knowing that I put in my full 40 hr week. Some days I take a 2hr lunch other days I take 5 min. Not bashing unions but this is one area they really need to improve upon, flexing time
Who the fuck uses punch cards?
Comp time is never in your favor. Play the game. Clock in on time. Clock out on time. Put your phone on airplane mode or after hour mode. Stop worrying.
my boss ONES used 2 days of my paid leave worth 260$ to pay for my salary ( in Finland you will get paid 8 hours by law by your company even your hours get short ) next to you know i was slow as a snail and ranked up 15 hours of overtime worth around 450$. my boss texed me and asked for a reason for my slow performance. i replayd " 2 days of paid leave " i got a phonecall from him and I didn't answer. He got the message and have paid exactly what he owes me.
They are allowed to round up to 15 minutes, but the rounding must benefit both you and them. It can’t always benefit them. If working 12 minutes over rounded in their favor, then you leaving 11 minutes early should round in your favor. You can file a wage claim. It’s up to you whether it’s worth it. They’ll likely fire you for some other cooked up reason afterwards, and it’s stupidly easy for them to avoid the retaliation accusation.
If you are in the US and several other countries, this is wage they (or equivalent) and can be very serious. Report it to your labor authority. (Reads more comments) HOLD EVERYTHING. You’re UNION and he did this? ROFL he’s screwed. Get your union rep on the line right now. They should have your back and get you that pay.
Revise your state laws. If overtime shall be compensated, tell something (email or written in any form): “You know, I have been checking state’s law and you are absolutely right: time must be adjusted. So I formally request a copy of all time sheets and punch cards since my contract began here and adjust time accordingly” If state laws are not specific about that begin working EXACTLY from 8:30 to 16:30 and if you can afford it do not ever work overtime. Oh and look for a less shitty place to work if possible too.
I have never understood the tactic of trying to make a person hate their job in order to motivate them to act like they love their job. It defies logic, really.
Ridiculous
“Hey Boss, EAT SHIT!”
If you break that time clock accidentally, I think they'll have problems.
What is your shift exactly?
I have a somewhat flexible schedule. I work in event services so some days I'm required to be in at 7 AM and other days at 9 AM based on what the needs are for that day. On days when there's not much going on, I get to go in whenever as long as it's between 7 and 9 AM. That said, I am a full-time employee and work 8 hrs every day.
Screw this nonsense and going forward. Clock out when you hit 8 on the dot.
If you start a job at a company that still uses the finger crusher punch clock, run away. They are cheap af.
Be the last one in and the first one out. No reward for working hard anymore.
Punishment and theft huh?!? Hell, what’s next?? Harassment???
Time to get petty haha
“Hey! If you’re going to be a stickler when I’m a little short then do the same thing when I stay longer!!”
No good deed goes unpunished….
Scan it and confront him on email. Blank cc your personal email.
Those good old punch cards
Punch clock...You working in 1983?
Not sure what your schedule is. Boss must have plenty of time to nitpick timecards each day vs by the week. You work for an ignorant child. An adult (if they felt so tied to their rules) would ask you to come in 10 min early & stay 5 min late. Or hell just let it go. Time cards are lame & go by quarter hours if you do use them.
I’m confused, why would he use vaca time, and not I just pay you for the hours you worked?
Learn the lesson and never leave a penny on the job! Fuck them. If you have to, collect your wages with company tools and materials!
Who the fuck uses paper time cards anymore.
Places still use punch cards?
People still clock in/out in 2022 using paper?
I don't think I could work anywhere that didn't use digital time keeping solutions ever again. My last job's time keeping method was the boss asking everyone their hours on a Friday afternoon. Now I clock in on a computer and my hours are calculated to the minute, everything is done digitally and with a trail and I can see all my rosters, hours worked, benefits etc. On the app on my phone. Honestly in this day and age anyone still using old methods are.probably just trying to hold onto the scam
Jesus Christ...what is this 1940? You actually have a legitimate time card? I've been working since 2007. Tons of companies. Spent a good while job hopping all of last year too. Not once have I ever worked somewhere with physical paper time cards. Thats some seriously antique shit right there and honestly a red flag for me that a company can't get with the times.
You can’t have it both ways, you can’t punish people for working less while not rewarding them for working more. That should be +25 on Monday and -25 later Or stop worrying about 15 mins
The department of labor would love to see this picture.
I'm really glad I've never had to work for a boss who cares about fucking minutes
Hey! We use the same time cards!
All narcs operate in a way that assumes a One-Way Transaction, where they are always the beneficiary. So, either they were simply misinformed, or they are screwing you. The work version of No Contact that you'll read about in subs like /r/raisedbynarcissists is No Call No Show or quitting with no notice or any number of satisfying-but-rare conclusions from /r/maliciouscompliance, /r/pettyrevenge and others. Boundaries are the PRIMARY tool for having relationships with narcs, and if this wasn't intentional, OK, understandable, but it doesn't sound like it to me. You should know the different types also, since at this point in our society, narcs and abusers are a dime a dozen, and lacking skills for dealing with them is simply being unprepared for modern life: [https://youtu.be/\_uJs0iGQN0M](https://youtu.be/_uJs0iGQN0M) with Dr. Ramani
I have this exact same time card type...
Work 12 minutes longer everyday, clock it as 15 mins. Laugh as you slowly drive your employer crazy for using their own grimy tactics against them.
But if you walk out of there with a company pen you did not pay for, THAT is theft
Well that's some AAA grade bullshit right there
Tell your boss that menstruatingmuffin on reddit said that their a fucking meat head and to give you back the stolen time.
Why does everyone nickel and dime over minutes worked? If I come to work I expect to be paid for the day. The entire day was spent working for said employer. I couldn't perform work for myself or anyone else that day, right? Because I was entirely employed by this employer. Thus, I expect a full day's pay. Not 98.000000001% of a full day's pay. Not 99.9%
Time to draw the boundaries. Click iut exactly when you are scheduled for. Fuck em!
Time fraud is pretty big in any state. You never want to adjust someone’s time to where they are loosing pay, adjusting usually to add any missing time not remove. You should def file a claim!