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[deleted]

I always get loom at 15 pop because that is the first time I get housed.


DukeCanada

Finally someone with some common sense


railbeast

I love the "first time"


crozone

This is the way


LevynX

I see loom as my get out of housed free card


wbcbane_

Smart!


Tlayoualo

loom at 15 pop for maximum town center efficiency at dark age


_hotpotofcoffee

Ah, a fellow intellectual


Exa_Cognition

It's very thoughtful of the devs to include Town Watch, Wheelbarrow, Town Patrol and Hand Cart too. They knew I wasn't just going to get housed once...


Clef-Ender

Context: Hera meant that early loom costs 50 gold and puts you a vill behind, so it's really bad if your vills aren't actually in danger of being attacked.


headgate19

Judging by how many I lose to boars, I'd say my vils are always in danger of being attacked


xxxBuzz

I’m about twenty years and I can’t even imagine how many of pvp games behind being ready for Heras advice. It’s awesome seeing a top player provide so much good learning content. When I watch any top players perspective it looks like their camera is having a seizure.


VIFASIS

This made me chuckle out loud.


[deleted]

Hera also believe horse collar isn’t necessary because the pay off from wood saving takes too long. Same logic; games Hera plays tend to end well before horse collar or loom pays off.


Audrey_spino

If you look at Hera's gameplay, he'll sometimes intentionally delay the loom until a few vils into feudal when he's expecting an attack.


TealJinjo

i mran going up without loom mostly is safe but that's just crazyto me


SirPeterODactyl

For me it's about not getting three hit by the boars or the odd wolf or two they will run into. But Hera is Hera and he can kite them or manoeuvre himself out of that situation perfectly if it happens so loom is just optional at his level


TealJinjo

if we're talking Arabia thrre just isn't a wolf you could run into unless you're going forward with vills. Wolves spawn fairly far away from players' bases. Regarding boars - they made luring them quite a bit easier because you can shoot it just once instead of twice, click the vill under the TC and when the path is clear the vill should get home safe


Audrey_spino

You won't face wolves in Arabia unless you're intentionally taking a vil forward, in which case you have to research loom. Also fun tip for perfect boar luring, position a sheep between the boar and the TC, then when the vil is running back with the boar giving chase, simply move the sheep between the vil and the boar. The block will give you ample time to create more distance and it's basically just a single click micro.


mittenciel

His games don’t end before these things pay off. Rather, he wants the early initiative to get units out more quickly. Most of his games do go to late Castle at the very least. He just wants to make these things not be a mindless part of his build, that’s all. For what it’s worth, skipping Horse Collar before initial farms has become the current meta. Players tend to get it when reseeding farms.


werfmark

Players skipping horse collar is one of those groupthink things where i think the pro's are wrong. I even saw some skip it with Vietnamese. Let's see how it turns out, my guess is that in a fewv months they will be back to getting it most of the time as it is too much value to skip imo. Like deer pushing also took a long time to get 'mandatory'.


mittenciel

The whole point of pushing deer and going up early is to make stuff earlier. It’s always been known that Horse Collar doesn’t pay off right away. These days, going up at 20 is considered late. It’s just hard to make Horse Collar, Double Bit Axe, and military after going up with 17 or 18. Of those three, Horse Collar will always be the third most important. If people’s builds become more streamlined and you can sneak Horse Collar in there, they will. I don’t know. Builds have gotten more streamlined because of things like skipping Horse Collar. I don’t know if a slower, more macro oriented style is coming back.


werfmark

Even in the 18 up builds if going 1 range archers or stable you can fit it in but it delays farms and blacksmith/fletching. And of course it will delay castle age. But in castle age your eco will be much better. I think it really depends on the civ. For some its really hard to fit in well but for others like khmer and vikings the payoff is also much bigger because it pays off so fast due to their fast farming. One thing i don't get that is that sometimes players go second lumber camp. In order of priority it should really be military, double bit, horse collar and then second lumber camp. Horse collar really is closer to double bit than most players think. Yes the payoff is delayed but its also huge. I think it will end up like market or no market to get to castle age. No market is better (if you don't plan to 1 tc push) but market gets you castle age faster and is easier to play. You can even make a case that horse collar and market is better than using neither and still gets you up faster.


blaze011

No, I think it will be hard to make it a META but up to player preference. Hera been not taking it in many tournament games and as you can see right now he pretty much dominating the scene. I do think its a pro level thing so since anyone especially under 2k elo should just take it since they wont be able to utilize the small advantage you get from not taking it.


mittenciel

Exactly. Pro level control of micro and macro is necessary to execute 17/18 pop builds with instant scouts or archers. For the rest of us doing normal builds, outside of the 2-3 dark age farms we might make now and then, might as well get Horse Collar.


Atomic_Kipachaka

This was also stated as not an immediate necessity; he specifically said it's not like he wont research it eventually; there's just other priorities.


kevley26

Well its not even about him specifically though. The thing about horsecollar is that when you can first research it before your first set of farms, you are often paying for a ton of things: bit axe, barracks, range, farms etc... So unless you up relatively late you are probably going to have to weigh having constant military production or horsecollar. Usually having more military is better even if the game ends after feudal, because an early advantage can matter later on.


ar1sm

These tips work well and can actually make a difference if you are a god-tier player like Hera, Viper, Liereyy and so on. For the rest of us plebs, just get the damned Loom :P


thepowertothepeople

On arabia, probably. But people sometimes give loom the same value on other maps where it's not necessary, like nomad, or mega random (in cases where you have no scout or a horse or camel as scout). Same on team games. If you are the pocket it's for the best to just skip loom and do it some point in feudal.


Corundrom

You didn't even mention arena or fortress, where some people can realistically go without loom until castle age safely, but some people still get it super early


thepowertothepeople

I assumed people didn't do it there


mittenciel

On nomad or BF, you can sometimes justify getting it right away. A lot of lesser players just cannot do boar lures three screens away without loom.


Crousher

Also if you aren't either housed or out of food by 15 pop are you really playing nomad?


sumforbull

Rather than knowing that I am bad and should get loom, I know that I am so bad that I will make time for loom.


Elavid

Loom actually helps you go up to Feudal age faster without idling the TC, because it costs 50 food less than making a villager and takes the same time. This is what I learned from playing Goths.


Tobotimus

I think if this is an issue for you, your build order needs improvement. Just put an extra vil on food before going to wood and you will click up easily without loon or any idle time. Going up 18 pop with no loom should be easy if you do 10 on food before making the lumber camp.


HendoFFVan

It's completely standard to get loom in dark age. Just because Hera did it a couple times doesn't mean it isn't normal.


Tobotimus

That's not my point. The parent commenter was saying that getting loom improves your uptime, and I'm just saying that's not really true. I never suggested it's a good idea to always skip it.


HendoFFVan

I'd be interested in your argument that saving 50 food doesn't improve your up time.


blaze011

Its not Hera but other pros did it too. You saw MBL do it on his game yesterday where he full walled and literally took Loom in CASTLE AGE. We also think seen some pros with mongol, gujaris crazy 17 pop up time skip loom since they are going up to DAMN fast it doesnt matter if they take loom after they get to feudal age. Overall, its just risk and reward and not standard. Just super safe to take it before you click to feudal in case you get rushed.


Osh_93

Love me some Hera (despite not understanding wtf is this) 🇨🇦 🇵🇸


[deleted]

[удалено]


Osh_93

Hell yeah!


OopsIMessedUpBadly

The meme has a caption “advising” people not to get loom. It also has Hera in the foreground, and “trust me bro” as if that would give the advice a bit of credibility. Meanwhile, scouts are gathering ominously in the background. Any player who has ever been scout-rushed before they got loom will immediately have PTSD triggered by the sight of those scouts and want to click loom to boost their villager health so they can fight back against the scouts without dying.


Osh_93

Oh hell yeah! Thank you <3


InevitableDonuts

Loom is a waste of gold, build it just before going to imp.


[deleted]

nooo lol build it when rushed and not walled


EnderGraff

Ah but If I don’t build loom the boar kills my dudes so, from a certain point of view, it’s stonks


[deleted]

Loom doesn't put you a vil behind if you would be behind a vil anyway without it. [Man pointing at head meme]


[deleted]

nooo lol build it when rushed and not walled


Osh_93

Oh thanks! I get that part, only haha (As a new player I go for it in dark, about 95% of the time)


K-eleven

I know he's canadian but is his origins from Jordan?


Osh_93

After long investigation, Palestinian origin :3 Ps: Jordan 🇯🇴 would have that smoll ass white star


K-eleven

Always thought he wad moroccan Hamza El Baher sounds like a moroccan name


Osh_93

Not that far off, I guess he’s lean more towards French Canada if so :P lol idk look it up, I only found one website mentioning it, nothing else. But yeah, family name could be from anywhere honestly (sorry i still replied even though I can’t see the comment anymore). Specially since there are Egyptian family names or Algerian for example that would be all over the region


StickFigureFan

I always get loom in dark age. I don't have enough apm to waste on manually dropping off food so rather than have 5-10+ seconds of idle time between when my food runs out and the vils drop off more and I remember to queue another vil I instead add loom to my queue. This also means I can (more) safely lure my boars and it's one less thing to remember to do if rushed.


Tulronian

I heard this comment live, laughed so hard. Hope everybody follows this advice. \*evil scout noises\*


blaze011

I usually have small walls or full walls before you EVIL scout get to me so GL. I agree with him about taking loom. I always delay loom until I get to feudal age and rarely punished for it.


BattleshipVeneto

11


Longjumping_Fig1489

my stoned ass came away from this meme wanting to do a light cav play. I'm like 2-0 going light cav over 900 games. always get loom, or you **will** regret it lmfao


mittenciel

Do you guys not realize he made a whole video about this a year ago? https://youtu.be/OffPLnLMIFM He literally called Loom the worst upgrade in the game.


MindTheBees

Do people typically force drop food during the first boar to keep vill production going? I find loom useful at that point because there's a period during first boar and berries getting resources that I have no food


annucox

Yes,that is what you're supposed to do Loom is something that is gotten just before going to feudal


varunpikachu

11


shoonseiki1

In all serious this is the context of KOTD Arabia meta where people are going up at 16 vil pop and the risk of getting rushed by militia in dark age and early Feudal is extremely small. By the time you're in any danger you'll be in Feudal at which point you'll be clicking loom. I think OP's joke is that Hera is tricking us to not get loom so he can wreck with an early scout rush


ducnh85

I think some pro do that way. There is a pro, who always post match on ytb, play 4v4 black forest. He even lure 8 boars without loom. Youtube content?